Humpty Trumpty's Crumbling Wall | The Joy Reid Show LIVE!

Summary

The Joy Reid Show — "Humpty Trumpty's Crumbling Wall" (June 18, 2026)
Host: Joy-Ann Reid
Guests: David K. Johnson, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Dr. Freda Fisher, Senator Chris Murphy, Robbie Jones

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Episode Overview

This energetic and expansive episode of The Joy Reid Show tackles the rapidly shifting landscape of American politics and society in the Trump era. Anchoring the discussion is the cultural and political symbolism of Trump’s public failures—including the removal of his name from the Kennedy Center and his mounting alienation, even among former supporters. Joy and her guests draw connections between recent events (from the Knicks’ Championship Parade to foreign policy disasters) and the lasting consequences of American choices, addressing the overlap between domestic racism, foreign imperialism, and the urgent need for moral and practical leadership. The episode crescendos with a powerful, multi-layered conversation between Joy and Ta-Nehisi Coates, who delves into Black American struggle, the global politics of empire, and the intertwining fates of oppressed peoples worldwide.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

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1. Housekeeping, Knicks Win, and Trump’s Tanking Popularity

Timestamps: 00:44–06:41

• Joy sets the tone with a celebratory nod to the show’s "Gemini" birthday and the Knicks’ NBA Championship win (06:19).

  • “New York deserves it. They earned it. They clawed their way to victory and they very much, well earned that parade.” (06:41, Joy Reid)

• Transition to political symbolism: The removal of Donald Trump’s name from the Kennedy Center sparks widespread schadenfreude and leads to comparisons with the Berlin Wall’s fall (09:45), and with the toppling of Saddam Hussein’s statue (11:18).

  • “Once the name came down, a rainbow appeared above Washington, D.C. … a total metaphor for where it was going.” (06:54, Joy Reid)

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2. The “Berlin Wall” Metaphor — Trump’s Fall as Turning Point

Timestamps: 09:31–16:39

• Joy, David K. Johnson, and Ta-Nehisi Coates reflect on Trump’s crumbling symbolic power, comparing it to historic moments of regime change and liberations. They caution, however, against celebrating too quickly given the roots of American complicity in global power struggles.

• Joy self-references:

  • “There’s a vibe shift in the country where people are realizing that this guy is a fraud … The emperor has new clothes, has no clothes.” (13:17, Joy Reid)

• Jim Acosta’s reporting and an AI viral clip are referenced as indicative of the hunger for moments of symbolic closure and redemption.

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3. Trump’s Foreign Policy & The Iran Disaster

Timestamps: 16:39–25:49

• Sen. Chris Murphy’s critical assessment of Trump’s war in Iran (16:39–19:07):

  “None of Donald Trump’s objectives have been achieved, and they’re not even close. …America is weaker today because of this war. Iran is stronger … this agreement will be proof positive of what an absolute dumpster fire this war has been.” (16:39, Chris Murphy)

• Joy & Johnson debunk “Master Deal Maker” myth (19:07–23:17):

  • “The art of the deal was not written by Donald Trump—it was written by a guy named Tony Schwartz… he barely got a chance to speak to Trump because Trump was too disinterested to sit down...” (19:07, Joy Reid)

• Johnson provides a historical recap of the JCPOA and Trump’s short-sighted destruction of multilateral agreements, emphasizing America’s loss of credibility.

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4. Middle East Wars: Historical Costs, Futility, and Alternatives

Timestamps: 25:49–35:27

• Johnson’s perspective on America’s 40-year military addiction:

  “…We have this enormous military… but hey, we can take the reflecting pool in front of the Lincoln Memorial and turn it into a swamp full of algae. This is just insane…” (28:23, David K. Johnson)

• He pitches a radical shift: unconditionally defending Israel from invasion, but withholding support for occupation and mass killing—a vision he admits neither party will adopt.

• Discussion of shifting Arab public opinion: Iran, once reviled, has become more popular than the U.S. on the “Arab street”—a direct outcome of U.S. choices.

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5. Trump as Symbol of “Just Desserts” for American Failures

Timestamps: 35:27–42:49

• The show’s tone sharpens: Joy and Johnson cast Trump’s reign as America’s inevitable comeuppance for centuries of unaddressed racism and imperialism.

  • “Donald Trump is the natural result of our failures and choices over 250 years. Unfortunately, he is America’s just desserts in so many ways.” (42:03, Joy Reid)

• Anecdotes about Trump’s health and cultural impotence: Images of Trump asleep at major events and his inability to attract A-list stars further illustrate his unraveling.

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6. Racial and Gendered Attacks in the Trump Show Era

Timestamps: 45:04–52:55

• The UFC-on-the-White-House-lawn incident: Joy, Dr. Freda Fisher, and others discuss the public misgendering and racist attacks on Michelle Obama and Black women more broadly.

  • “We have data that systemic racism, chronic discrimination, and also public humiliation, increase cardiovascular negative outcomes… This is what happens. This is why so many black people, and Black women specifically, have poorer cardiovascular outcomes…” (46:14, Dr. Freda Fisher)

• Joy and Dr. Freda dissect the damage done by both white and Black men’s silence or complicity in these racist moments.

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7. The Obamas as “Antidote” to America’s Poison

Timestamps: 52:55–58:57

• Joy plays clips from the Obama presidential library opening, contrasting the dignified, loving partnership of Barack and Michelle Obama with the toxic, performative politics of the Trump age.

  • “Barack Obama is the anti–Stephen A. Smith: supportive of Black women, supportive of his wife.” (54:34, Joy Reid)

• Dr. Freda highlights the ability of joy, love, and community to literally lower biological stress in the face of relentless humiliation and racism.

• Discussion of Melania Trump’s infamous plagiarism of Michelle’s speech, lampooned cordially.

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8. Empire, the Black Presidency, and America’s Moral Crisis

Timestamps: 68:25–98:35

A. Coates’ Vanity Fair Essay & the Burden of Black Leadership

• Ta-Nehisi Coates discusses his Vanity Fair piece, “The Next Black President,” and the tension between fighting for inclusion and becoming complicit in the machinery of empire.

  “A Black presidency is a contradiction. It owes its power to a movement against racist state violence at home, but seeks an office which has always practiced racist state violence abroad.” (70:01, Joy quoting Coates)

• On Harris and Palestine: Both Joy and Coates wrestle with Kamala Harris’ inability to take a stronger stand for Palestinian rights. Coates argues that affirming the humanity of Palestinians is integral to Black liberation and the broader anti-imperialist struggle.

  • “The first thing is what we were effectively asked to do was to look away from a genocide… in service of apartheid, a system that we ourselves have experienced.” (84:05, Ta-Nehisi Coates)
  • “If we have gotten to the point where we feel like our survival depends on telling another group of people that they have to watch their families be destroyed, we’ve done something wrong somewhere.” (93:36, Ta-Nehisi Coates)

B. Practical Solidarity and the Lessons of History

• Coates: "There are wolves at the door. … The fact that right now the bombs are being dropped on somebody else, it just doesn’t mean they’re not coming for you. They always come for you." (91:18, Ta-Nehisi Coates)
• Joy and Coates reaffirm the necessity of global, intersectional solidarity between the oppressed, referencing SNCC, South Africa, and current movements.

C. On Voting and Political Movement

• Both express the limits of “lesser evil voting,” demanding a Democratic Party willing to break with reflexive pro-Israel stances.
  • “Going forward, cannot vote for a Democrat who does not pledge to end this relationship [with Israel].” (95:04, Joy Reid)

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9. Christian Nationalism, White Supremacy, and America at 250

Timestamps: 103:45–120:57

• Robbie Jones, PRRI, explores the white Christian nationalist roots of America’s current political crisis.

  • “We are living in a country that’s about a third of the country that wants to take us back to … this white Christian nationalist country … but that’s not the vision of 2/3 of the country.” (118:20, Robbie Jones)

• He highlights new polling showing dwindling faith in the American Dream, increasing polarization, and a decline in Trump’s popularity, especially among independents.

• Strategic point:

  • “We just need to outnumber [white Christian nationalists]. We don’t have to change their minds … just outvote them.” (121:11, Joy Reid)

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10. Moment of Joy: Knicks Parade & Black Family Love

Timestamps: 122:20–123:16

• To close, Joy highlights Josh Hart, his wife, and their twins as a joyful Black family moment—contrasting the episode’s political heaviness with hope and celebration.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “The art of the deal was not written by Donald Trump—it was written by a guy named Tony Schwartz.” (19:07, Joy Reid)
• “He’s physically decrepit. He’s morally decrepit. He’s a racist, as you said, he’s a misogynist. He’s a monster. And yet for his people, he’s a demigod.” (36:23, Joy Reid)
• “Chronic discrimination and systemic racism are associated with increased cardiovascular risks like strokes... This is why so many black people, and black women specifically, have poorer cardiovascular outcomes.” (46:14, Dr. Freda Fisher)
• “A Black presidency is a contradiction. It owes its power to a movement against racist state violence at home, but seeks an office which has always practiced racist state violence abroad.” (70:01, Joy quoting Ta-Nehisi Coates)
• “If we have gotten to the point where we feel like our survival depends on telling another group of people that they have to watch their families be destroyed, we’ve done something wrong somewhere…” (93:36, Ta-Nehisi Coates)
• “We just need to outnumber them. We don’t have to change their minds ... just outvote them.” (121:11, Joy Reid)

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Essential Timestamps & Segments

• 06:41 — Knicks win and parade discussion
• 09:31–11:18 — Trump’s Kennedy Center humiliation; Berlin Wall & Baghdad comparisons
• 16:39–19:07 — Sen. Chris Murphy lambasts Iran policy
• 28:23–30:27 — David K. Johnson on American war addiction
• 42:03–42:36 — “Trump as Just Desserts” for America
• 46:14–51:15 — Dr. Freda Fisher: Public racism and health impacts
• 70:01–95:04 — Ta-Nehisi Coates: Empire, Black leadership, Palestine, history
• 118:20–121:11 — Robbie Jones: America’s religious/racial split and hope for the future
• 122:20–123:16 — Knicks moment of joy (Josh Hart’s family)

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Episode Tone & Style

• Joy’s signature mix of incisive, witty, and empathetic commentary
• Blunt, irreverent dissection of Trumpism’s failures and dangers
• Honest reckoning with America’s “original sins” and contemporary racism
• Calls to solidarity and practical political action—outvote, don’t outargue, the minority cliques

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Conclusion

This episode presents a layered narrative: Trump’s personal and political unravelling is set against the backdrop of America’s deeper permutations—its addiction to empire, ongoing racism, and the question of whether true liberation ever emerges from gaining proximity to corrupt power. The scathing analysis is offset by moments of joy and resilience, particularly via the Obamas and the Knicks. Ultimately, Joy, Coates, and her panel call for a redemptive politics that learns from history, stands in true solidarity with the oppressed, and insists on moral and structural transformation.

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For readers: This summary captures the episode’s arc, from moment-to-moment debate and storytelling to the central questions Joy raises: Who are we as Americans? What does real progress look like? And will we use what we know to build a future worthy of that knowledge?

Transcript

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Honey, what are you listening to?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Mom?

[Joy Reid]

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[Jason]

Okay.

[Joy Reid]

Well, hell.

[David K. Johnson]

Well, well, well.

[Joy Reid]

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Joy Re show. Happy middle of the week. We appreciate everybody who is in the chat. We already see you guys jumping in and saying hello and chatting amongst yourselves. Big ups, everybody that is listening on YouTube, Substack Facebook. Watch out for them trolls. You know they like to stick on Facebook. Twitch. Hello to our Twitchies on Twitch. They are small in number but very, very mighty. Also, if you're listening on LinkedIn, we still have a name for the LinkedIn. We got to figure out something like that. We'll figure it out. But also, if you're listening on an audio platform, don't feel unappreciated. We appreciate you checking just as much. We love everyone equally. Thank you all for tuning in. I want to remind you guys that it's our birthday all month. It's just. We're just celebrating our birthday. We're just. We are a June birthday fam and we are just going to celebrate all month long. So if you want to get this fabulous Juneteenth T shirt, it is almost Juneteenth. We are two days away from Juneteenth. It's Juneteenth Eve Eve and we have four different fabulous Juneteenth T shirts. This is just one of the four. If you want to pick up your own, your own version of it, you can go on shop.thejewelryadshow.com and just use the code birthday. And we're Gemini. We're a Gemini show. Our show is a Gemini. We're a Gemini. So we do either really good news or really bad news. But use the code birthday and you can get yourself 15% off. Don't also. Also, don't forget to sign up to get on our Run me My slush money team. Just use the QR code to sign up for the run me my slush money mailing list. And what you can do when you're on that mailing list is you will get updates on if they restart the reparations fund. That was for January 6th, Donald Trump has not given up on giving reparations to his, his goon squad, but if they're giving out money, we want to make sure that money is given out to, to, to the regular people, particularly if you are African American. This is like your reparations, so we need to get that. Or, or don't give it out at all. Don't give it out at all. That would be the preference. It's illegal. And we also want to make sure that you access those letters which you directly from rubmymyslashmoney.com and shoot a letter to your United States Senators and to your members of Congress. It's already pre written, polite, ready to go with your signature saying, hey, not only do not give our money to January 6th insurrectionists and please restore the Capitol to the way it was when Donald Trump got there, we're adding that to the letter. We want the Capitol physically restored to the way it was when we. When he got there. Let's say hello to Jason. Hey, Jason, how you doing? Jason doesn't want to say hello to us yet. He'll say to hello to us later. Let me note that. Let's say hi to our. Oh, you there.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I am, I am, I am. I just had to get my, my act together. I'm here trying to produce the show. You called me out out of the blue, so I had to get everything together. I'm good.

[Joy Reid]

Okay. You never know. You never know when I'm going to call on you.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

No, I know, I know, I know.

[Joy Reid]

You just stay ready. You don't have to get ready. We always want to see Jason suck.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I'm trying to stay ready, but I got 1, 2, 3. I got so much stuff to do right here, B.

[Joy Reid]

So you got a lot. All right. Yeah, Back, back, back, back. Into the lab.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I'm going back into the lab. Bye.

[Joy Reid]

Bye. Into the lab. And our lead sponsor tonight is celebrations. Don't start with the clinking of glasses. They start with Zbiotics. Pre alcohol, a probiotic you take before your first drink so you can enjoy the night and wake up ready. Zebiotics. Free alcohol, the science behind your next great morning. Ah, yes, that's it. Zbiotics. Our good friends at Zebiotics. Okay, fam. You know, I would love to tell you that I am one of those aunties that can just, like, go ahead and sip, sippity sip throughout the night and then wake up fresh as day to the next morning and get, and, you know, get going and move in a groove, but that is not true. And so that is why we are very happy that Zebiotics is our sponsor for our show tonight. Because when I was in my 20s, I could literally be in the club all night and be at work at 9 o' clock in the morning and feel great. No problem, no problem. Could have a sip. But now I really actually do need a little help. And what I love about Zbiotics, it is a pre alcohol probiotic drink that is the world's first genetically engineered prebiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Now you, here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in your gut. It's a buildup of that byproduct, not dehydration. That is actually what's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break that byproduct down. So just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you will feel your best in the next morning. And you guys know I've told you this story before. I got down with the prebiotic during New Year's because the very next day after New Year's we had a show. Not only did I have to be here present for the Joy Reid show, we actually were covering the inaugural of the mayor of New York City. So we had to be sharp, we had to be fresh, we had to be ready to go. Thank God for sea biotics. And so it's my go to now and I made sure that if I have my security, the thing I have before security is my Zebiotics. Between weddings, the US Open and the first real late weekend of the year, which some people are enjoying, June barely leaves Saturday open. Do not have a rough morning after and don't let that cost you your Sunday drink. Pre alcohol to stay ahead of it. And make the most of every weekend this month, remember to head to ZBiotics.com that is Z B I O-T-I C S.com JOY. And use the code JOY at checkout for 15 off. We love that. All right, y'.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

All.

[Joy Reid]

So I want to let you all know what we'll be doing tomorrow. The Knicks NBA Championship game. Oh, by the way, before I get to what we're doing tomorrow, let me note for you and note for Donald Trump, who's I think probably real mad about it. The Knicks NBA championship game. To 24.5 million viewers, it was the most watched finals in almost 30 years. 30 years.

[Jason]

And

[Joy Reid]

of course, the question remains open whether the Knicks are going to actually go to the White House, particularly after the way that the White House grounds were used to trash the former first lady of the United States. We talked about that a little bit in the last show, but we're going to dig into a little bit later today. I 100% think they should not go. But where they will be tomorrow morning will be at a ticker tape parade. New York City throwing the first ticker tape parade for the New York Knicks ever, ever. Now, they last time they won a championship was in 1973. Before that, they won in 1970, but in neither case did they get a ticker tape parade. So this will actually be the first ticker tape parade for the New York Knicks. Historic. It's going to be amazing. Of course, we will be covering it live. You can come right to the Joy Reid Show Channel and watch, watch what's going on. You can watch the parade and also our intrepid correspondence will be covering it for you will be in these streets. Niva and Wang will be out there. I will be covering it as well. We're going to be giving you full coverage of what's going on tomorrow. Okay. So that is the housekeeping for this evening. So be I'm so excited about the ticker tape parade. New York deserves it. They earned it. They clawed their way to victory and they very much, well earned that parade. So let's get to a little bit of a recap of what happened this past weekend besides the Knicks finally getting that ring after 53 years. Remember when this happened last weekend? Ah, yes, when Donald Trump's name was ripped off of the Kennedy center, where he had illegally added it because of his own ego and his, his, his envy of the Kennedys. Just like he's envious of the Obamas. It took a court order and a federal judge to force him to remove it. But literally, once the name came down, you can see in the video, a rainbow appeared above Washington, D.C. and for a lot of people, it felt like a total metaphor for where it was going. Yes, I'm sorry I had to add that at the end. That's from my Instagram post. But a lot of people also took the bringing down of that name off of the Kennedy center, which is still covered with a tarp, by the way, because Trump is so humiliated and embarrassed he won't take the tarp down. So he's like, if I can't have my name on the Kennedy center, no one can see the Kennedy Center. But despite that, his name's still gone. And when that happened, there were a lot of comparisons that were made. Our friend Jim Acosta made the comparison to something that happened in 1989, and here it is.

[David K. Johnson]

Iron curtain between East Germany and West Berlin has come tumbling down. East Germany announced today it is opening its borders, allowing its citizens to go anywhere they wish. The future of the Berlin Wall is now up in the air.

[Joy Reid]

That was CNN's coverage in 1989 of the Berlin Wall coming down. A signal of the end of the Communist bloc, the Russian USSR domination of Eastern Europe, which they had grabbed after they were our ally during World War II, which is all very strange, but then they took advantage of the fact that, you know, Stalin had allied with the United States. They'd won the war along with us, and they grabbed Eastern Europe and tried to keep it. And then the Wall came down. They tried to divide Germany down the middle with the Berlin Wall that comes down in 1989. And Jim Acosta likened taking Donald Trump's name off of the Kennedy center to that. There's also a viral AI fake clip of a man in a mask climbing up on the Justice Department where Trump has put his glowering, ugly visage, his face and pulling it down. That is not real. If you have that. We saw it earlier today, too, and I literally reached out to Jim Acosta to make sure. And also our wonderful winsome, our wonderful producer verified that it was not real. But people have that sense that we're having, like, a Berlin Wall moment, Right? There's a vibe shift in the country where people are realizing that this guy is a fraud and that maybe, maybe the emperor having no clothes is not being noticed. The moment that Trump's name was ripped off the Kennedy center also likened to something that happened on April 9, 2003, in Baghdad. Let's take a look at that.

[David K. Johnson]

Whoa.

[Joy Reid]

And you can see the joy of Iraqis who had been under the thumb of Saddam Hussein and his minority regime since basically, we put him in power. Let's not forget, it's all very complicated. Because Saddam Hussein was in power because the US CIA overthrew the previous government and put Saddam in because they thought he would be a friendly dictator to us. So friendly that we sided with him against Iran when they went to war and gave him the chemical weapons we later accused him of having. But no matter. Once we put Saddam Hussein in, he of course reverted to full dictator, oppressed his people, killed a lot of people, menaced a lot of people, and then we turned on him because then he decided, like Mossadegh had In Iran, he wanted to nationalize his own oil. And so we went, you got nuclear weapons, which he didn't. And we killed him and we delivered him to his executioners. And it was an American that, like, climbed on the statue, pulled down first, put an American flag over it, then pulled the American flag off, and then got a bulldozer and helped pull the statue down. But that moment was considered, you know, sort of the liberty, the liberation of the Iraqi people from, from Saddam Hussein's tyranny, which, again, was ostensibly not the reason we went to war with Iraq. We supposedly went to war with Iraq because they supposedly had nukes, just like we went to war with Iran for the same reason. It's very complicated. Later in the show, in the second hour, very excited, Ta Nehisi Coates will be here to talk about all those complications and how those complications could reverberate onto a potential second presidential candidacy of one Kamala Devi Harris, who is very much considering running, from all accounts. And he's going to talk about that. He has a great new piece in Vanity Fair. Very excited for Ta Nehisi Coates to make his the Joy Reid show debut. That's in hour two. Very excited. But the point of the matter that I'm making is it definitely feels like there's been a vibe shift in the country. People have now seen the emperor has new clothes, has no clothes. He's a scam artist. He said he was going to lower gas prices. He's raised them. He said he's going to make the economy better. It's worse. He said he's going to make grocery prices cheaper. They're more expensive. Expensive. Everything he said he's going to do, he didn't do. What he is doing is grifting off of the presidency, enriching himself, turning himself into a billionaire. Not based on his real estate prowess, which never made him a billionaire, though that's his supposed profession, but off of cryptocurrency and crypto schemes. To that point, the goons who were in the cage fight on the White House lawn for which Donald Trump erected a crypto, you know, erected a, a, a, a, a cage for them to fight. They're getting paid in Trump crypto, not in real money. They're getting paid in Trump crypto. And given the fact that Trump Crypto has lost $1.2 billion in market cap since it was launched when Donald Trump became president again, they're basically getting paid zero money. They're getting paid not in real money. They're getting paid in Crypto. So he's even scamming them. And of course, since he owns part of UFC and made his purchase, became a shareholder in the parent company of UFC just before he launched this scam to have a private event on the White House lawn, which taxpayers pay for private event where they, by the way, broadcast an advertisement to get more marks to buy Trump crypto during the paid stream Paramount plus, so you could pay them, too. So he's scamming his own people. And finally, even some MAGA people are feeling scammed and realizing it's all a scam. It was always a scam. Even the part about America first was a scam because Donald Trump is essentially doing whatever Israel wants. It's kind of Israel first. And so you're now starting to have, like a breach there, too. We're going to talk about that with David K. Johnson in just a minute. Because on that subject of the war which Donald Trump started the. Because BB The Butcher told him to. And because he couldn't stand that the black guy, the black president, got an Iran deal. Hold on, let me take a sip. He couldn't stand that the black president got, made an Iran deal. So he undid the Iran deal that the black guy did and did his own Iran deal. That essentially puts us exactly where the black president's Iran deal had us. The straits of Hormuz were open when we started bombing Iran, and when Israel started bombing Iran and starting a genocide in Lebanon, then the straits closed. Gas prices shot, up, food prices shot up, price of everything that gets shipped through the water shot up. And now Donald Trump, they, they've released the, the supposed deal. It's exactly where we started. Except that Iran gets to be $300 billion richer. They get full control of the straight. They get to be the toll collector. They get $300 billion of your tax money. And we are in exactly the same place we were when everything started, except Iran is more powerful, more popular, and they're still led by a guy called Ayatollah Khamenei. It's just a younger version of him who can live a lot longer because he's half the age, because it's his son. Let's listen to Senator Chris Murphy explaining it.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

The cost of this war. American consumers are paying billions more in gas. There are families right now that are deciding whether they're going to be able to afford to send their kid to a summer program or fill their gas tank. We've had a dramatic spike in the number of farms who are declaring bankruptcy. Why? Because diesel Prices have gone up by 50%, and America's reputation around the world is shattered. This has been a humiliating 100 days for the United States. Brian is right. The President doesn't want you to see this agreement because it is essentially a report card on what a disaster this war has been. It does bear repeating that none of Donald Trump's objectives have been achieved, and they're not even close to being achieved. Reportedly, Iran still has 70% of their missiles after a 60 billion bombing campaign. The Ayatollah is gone, but the regime now is more radical and more capable. The regime has proved that they can take America's best shot and survive. They have proved that they can control the Strait of Hormuz. And while no one has seen this agreement and there is still some doubt that it will even actually materialize, it appears that at the foundation to be a payment to Iran to open the strait, the numbers are fuzzy, but it looks as if there will be significant sanctions relief given to Iran so that they open the strait. Now, that is an abomination in and of itself. But it basically renders the future nuclear negotiations a failure in advance of, because if you have given up all your leverage just to open the Strait, you have nothing left to try to get them to come to the table on their nuclear program. This has been an epic disaster for the American people. This war has been an epic disaster for American national security. America is weaker today because of this war. Iran is stronger, and, well, we want it to end. This agreement will be proof positive to the American people of what an absolute dumpster fire this war has been.

[Joy Reid]

From start to finish, your daily reminder that the art of the deal was not written by Donald Trump. It was written by a guy named Tony Schwartz, who ghost wrote the book. So Donald Trump doesn't know how to make deals. Someone else wrote that book. And he barely got a chance to speak to Trump because Trump was too disinterested to sit down and couldn't keep still long enough to talk to him. So, basically, the stuff in there is stuff Tony Schwartz dreamed up. So everyone was like, well, I want Donald Trump to be president because he's a deal maker. No, he's not. His father made the deals that allowed him to inherit $317 million at birth. He's terrible at business, which is why he failed at the business that he literally chose, which is to be a real estate developer. He failed at being casino operator in Atlantic City. He does not know how to negotiate, and he's so triggered by the fact that everyone can See that his Iran deal is worse than Obama's Iran deal. That during an appearance at the Group of Seven summit of Global leaders in Yvonne Les Bains, France, Donald Trump, per the New York Times, denied that the US Was in a worse position than they were under the Obama deal. The JCPOA deny that it was a worse deal than Obama. And he's so triggered by Obama. This is his quote. He said, and you know what the Iranians did? They laughed at Obama and they said, he's a stupid son of a bitch.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Really?

[Joy Reid]

No, they didn't. They said, we agreed to the deal and we had Iran forestalling its nuclear ambitions from 2015, when President Obama negotiated that deal, until the stupid son of a bitch in the White House now broke that deal and started bombing Iran again and closed the Strait of Hormuz. And now we're paying Iran to reopen it. Read through the 14 points. CNN has them. None of those 14 points put us in a better position than we were under Obama. Donald Trump negotiated us backwards in time. Great job, Donald. Maybe we shouldn't give people who are sundowning control of our foreign policy. One last note. Donald Trump was also asked about the biggest initial blunder, the first blunder that started this disaster of a foreign policy, as Senator Chris Murphy mentioned, and that is the bombing of school children. That's how we started off. We started off by killing school children in a double tap airstrike. Donald Trump was asked about that. Here's what he said.

[Robbie Jones]

Now that you're approaching a new phase in this conflict with Iran, can you now say whether you will hold anyone in your administration accountable for the strike

[Joy Reid]

on a school that killed more than

[Robbie Jones]

100 children on the first day of the war?

[Jason]

No. If it, if it was a fault. And as you know, that's under investigation. Such a strange question to be asked at this state because you're talking about a long time ago, but nobody did that on purpose, I guess you'd have to say about them. What about the thousands of soldiers that they blew up when they opened their car door?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

What about.

[Jason]

About the thousands of people that were killed by Iran? No mistakes are made. War is nasty. But I know it's under investigation and I could have a report for you tomorrow. Or I'd ask. I would ask Pete. I would ask Pete Heath that question because they have it under investigation.

[Joy Reid]

Please note that he did not call that man stupid or piggy. I just want to note that as I. We welcome our guest. Join us now. Our friend David KK. Johnson of DC Report David.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Hello.

[Joy Reid]

Hello. Another. Another genius negotiation by Donald Trump. And did you notice? I did that when that man asked him a question. He was. He was. He was offended by it. But he didn't call the man stupid

[David K. Johnson]

because he's a man. I mean, what do you not understand here, Joy? He's a man. We get treated differently. And if we're white men, we get privilege.

[Joy Reid]

There you go. There you go. So his. This. This failure of negotiation, he was clearly triggered when it was pointed out to him that we are in a worse position now than we were under the Obama deal. He called Obama a stupid son of a bitch when obviously it's clear he's the stupid son of a bitch.

[David K. Johnson]

No, well, whatever Donald says about other people, he's talking about himself, with some rare exceptions. I mean, he is, after all, not the world's greatest expert on 22 different subjects. But look, this is a complete and utter disaster that goes back to 2018, when Trump tore up the agreement with Iran, negotiated not just by the Obama administration and John Kerry, but backed by the Russians, the Germans, the French, and the British. And under that agreement, with unlimited examinations by inspectors who were in Iran, the Iranians were not working to develop a nuclear weapon. It was only after Trump blew up the deal and made it clear that he was in the general mood to attack Iran, which he didn't do until the second administration, that they said, yeah, maybe we need to get a nuclear weapon, because nobody's going to invade or attack a country with a nuclear weapon. That's their defensive weapons. They're not offensive. But Donald is so unknowledgeable that he thinks that Iran would drop a nuclear weapon on Israel. If they did that, it would invite immediate, massive retaliation. And so that was never going to happen. And we're now in the bizarre situation where you can trust the regime in Tehran to tell the truth more than the President of the United States. Absolutely bonkers.

[Joy Reid]

And you know what, David?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Just.

[Joy Reid]

If everyone could just sit with this for a moment. Hamas basically had ropes to scale a wall and crude weapons used to kidnap 1200 people. And in retaliation for them killing 1200 people, Israel obliterated Gaza. They committed mass genocide across Gaza. They accelerated the extrication of Palestinians from the west bank, and they are still doing it. And the idea that Iran would be so irrational as to drop a nuclear bomb on Israel, what do you think Israel would do if you drop the nuclear bomb on them, they might drop a nuclear bomb on the entire Arab and Muslim world.

[David K. Johnson]

Well, so let's keep it Clear what's happening here in the Middle East. Benjamin Netanyahu is trying to avoid going to prison and he clearly doesn't care how many people are killed so that he does not go to prison. Now he might, with his trial at the end of the day, be cleared. I think that's highly unlikely. But he might be, but he's not willing to run that risk. And it seems to me that if you look back over the last 40 years. So let's go back to 1986 and the bombing in Beirut when Ronald Reagan was President killed 246 roughly Marines. We have spent so far more than $5 trillion on wars in the Middle East. The deferred expenses of that people who will be 100% or are disabled veterans and the medical care they need and the replacement of weaponry. We're looking at a total tab that's probably approaching $10 trillion. Now during those same years, what have the communist dictators been doing in Beijing? They've been building the most fabulous highways in the world. I mean, they put to shame not just the US Interstate, but the Autobahn. They have been building half the world's high speed rail in a single year. They built more office space in Shanghai in 2005 than exists in New York City. They are buying up farmland in Africa and water rights and building ports, all without firing a shot at anybody. How stupid are we as a people that both Democrats and Republicans, we keep electing people to Congress and the White House and I include Obama in this. I mean, Obama was a very cautious president. I think he unfortunately had to be about what he did. But the reality is we have this enormous military and by the way, we can't afford Social Security, WIC for pregnant women and infants. We can't afford health care. We can't afford all these different things. But by golly, we have plenty of money. Not just for war and more war and more war. But hey, we can take the reflecting pool in front of the Lincoln Memorial and turn it into a swamp full of algae. This is just insane. And I don't understand why American voters who complain all the time about taxes, why they haven't recognized that the spending side here is completely lopsided and out in space. And I have a suggestion for what we do with Israel, by the way. And criticism of the government of Israel is not anti Semitism, it's criticism of that government. I think we should tell the Israeli government under a new president and a new Congress, if anyone attacks you, we're there with all of our military we will totally defend you. Your borders will be secure if somebody tries to invade you. But we're not helping you with this mass killing and destruction in Gaza. We're not helping you with going into an independent, sovereign nation, Lebanon, and destroying homes and rounding up people. And we're going to limit our support for you if you continue to allow settlers, Israeli settlers, to come in and attack Palestinians and nothing happens to them. We'll defend Israel's right.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, that would require a. I just don't see either Democrats or Republicans doing it. I mean, that's a whole different lingering.

[David K. Johnson]

No, I agree with you. I'm describing the idea.

[Joy Reid]

I can't even see a Democrat agreeing to that. Yeah, it would be Right. And the reality is there's a bipartisan addiction to wars in the Middle East. We're gonna talk to Tom Hasekotz about this the next hour. That is, to me, bananas. It's both parties that are just addicted to these constant wars in the Middle east that get us nothing but being reviled by people in the Middle East. I mean. Point, David. Iran, which is the former Persian Empire, they are not an Arab country. They are a Persian country. They are more popular on the Arab street than we are. They are. We are hated. They are popular. They have become more popular. They have gotten more credibility. They have more fans on the Arabs, even though they are bombing some Gulf Arab countries. Well, it's crazy. Donald Trump, you're welcome. You did that.

[David K. Johnson]

Yeah. Iran is the natural leader of the Middle East. But because of what we did with removing Mossadegh in the early 1950s, putting in the shah, supporting him, creating all these enemies who hate us because of what we've been doing, we've created so much enmity that a thousand years of hatred between the Russian peoples and the Persian peoples have been turned into allies. We need to fundamentally rethink what are we doing here in the world. Why are we having our life expectancy shortened in the United States and stop growing when other countries are doing so well?

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

For what?

[David K. Johnson]

What are we getting for this? That is not on. I agree with you 100%. That is not on the agenda. It is not what's fundamentally being discussed. And I think it's part of the frustration that you see of support for Trump because his supporters, by and large, are, as he loves to call them, the poorly educated. And they don't understand policy. They're not big on economics other than their own knowing what the price of gasoline is. What they know is life isn't life for Grandpa. And Grandma was better than it is for me. What's going on here?

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, that's right.

[David K. Johnson]

And Donald says, I alone save you. So this is shocking and, you know, let's not miss that. What happened in this fight, on these fights on the lawn of the White House, the People's House, especially the commentary at the end, the disgusting, racist and homophobic and misogynist commentary by one of the fighters, all of that is a reflection of a terrible choice that Americans made. We chose this. And that is the whole point of democracy. We choose what we're going to do and we have to live with the consequences of those choices.

[Joy Reid]

And you know, to go back to this and to, you know, you are such an expert on Donald Trump, we have to lean it. I mean, Donald Trump thrived in the 80s when he was best friends with Jeffrey Epstein. And so what he feels, the only thing he feels he needs to deliver to his base are entertainments. And he thinks that Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, which was very popular when I was in junior high and high school, is still what will enthrall the American people. So he promises them he's going to make the reflecting pool look like an actual swimming pool. Let's look at the promise. You talked about the reflecting pool. He literally said it was going to look like a real swimming pool, which it's not. Okay, that's the promise. He thinks. Now, first of all, he thinks that that is a flex, but it's a reflecting pool, you moron. It's supposed to be gray, so it reflects the Washington Monument. But here's what he delivered. To your earlier point, Jason, if you could fire up what the delivery looked like like that, David, they've had to now treat it with agents to try to get rid of the algae that is now eating up the pool. Fox is claiming that's still swimming pool blue though.

[David K. Johnson]

Well, they can have a hard time maintaining that going forward. You know, I'm in just outside Washington to attend the annual Investigative Reporters and Editors conference. I'm a former president of ire and my wife is going to go tomorrow to see the reflecting pool for herself. She's, she just shocked at the awfulness of this. But you know, remember, Donald Trump has no qualifications for any of these things. Before his frontal lobe dementia, before his age related problems. If he's been a con man his whole life, it's all nonsense he makes up. He doesn't know anything. And I just do not understand the absolute failure of huge numbers of Americans to say, oh, sorry, we got taken Here, there's still a third of Americans supporting him, maybe only 16% on the Iran war, but there's still generally a third of Americans supporting this unbelievably stupid, crass, incompetent man and his racist staff. I mean, removing Colin Powell's name at the Arlington Cemetery, where also my wife's going to go, because her father was a World War II naval officer, distinguished officer. This is just beyond belief. But again, we're in a democracy. We chose this. Even if you didn't vote for him, the fact that enough people around you did means we chose this. And if we end up just completely destroying our country with these idiotic racists and misogynists at the top.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, and by the way, he's clearly ill. I mean, Jason has a picture of him asleep during the UFC entertainments. So this is a Caligula, but a Caligula that can't stay on his horse because he can't stay awake. His hand, meanwhile, is, like, cracking open. There he is asleep. Okay? The guy can't even stay awake through his entertainments. This is embarrassing. He can't do it. He can't stay up.

[David K. Johnson]

How does he go to sleep? All that noise around him. Joy. He did the same thing at the Knicks game. At the next game, he fell asleep. Those aren't quiet events where you can sort of nod off. Yeah, there's no. There's very serious problems here, but. No, no, sorry. He's in the greatest health, you know.

[Joy Reid]

Right. He's in great health. £250 of pulchritude. Let's show the hand, because this is odd. Maybe when the doctor comes on in the next segment, we can ask her about it, too. But he's. He. He looks like he's physically detained.

[David K. Johnson]

Not just.

[Joy Reid]

You can see the makeup over it, but it looks like there's a literal, like, a bite mark in his hand. Like, are vampires biting him at night? Are demons eating him? Like he's physically decrepit. He's morally decrepit. He's a racist, as you said. He's a misogynist. He's a monster. And yet for his people, he's a demigod.

[David K. Johnson]

Well, that's because he's a miracle worker. I mean, after all, there's no scar on his ear where he claims that he was shot and that. That. I will tell you, as somebody who had cancer surgery on one of my ears, you know, I can show you up close. There's a scar there 20 years later.

[Joy Reid]

That's right. Ask Evander. Holyfield who got his ear bitten not by a gun, a bullet, but by a person's ear, by Mike Tyson. If you see his ear now, it's still swollen and huge. Somebody's saying he's biting himself. Before I let you go, how much will it trigger Donald Trump that he was not able to get any A list stars to come to his. He was actually asking B list stars, and even they wouldn't go to his America 250 continued extended birthday party like our show. He's celebrated his birthday all month. But President Obama, who is opening his very pretty Obama Presidential Library, he is going to have Grammy, Oscar, Emmy, Tony, Golden Globe winners. He's going to have Bono, he's going to have Bruce Springsteen. He's going to have the edge. Also from U2, the Roots, Christina Aguilera, Jennifer Hudson, John Legend, Eddie Vedder, from Pearl Jam, Marc Anthony, Common Thames, and actress Marci Martin. That's just some of the people that are going to be part of this grand opening for the Obama Presidential Library. How much will this trigger Trump?

[David K. Johnson]

Oh, a lot. I mean, Donald cannot be unaware that he is losing support that he has held in lower and lower regard every day that he remains in office. But he has no way to escape. Donald will never resign. You're not going to see that happen. That's not who he is. And so he's going to have to find ways to strike out and to use other people like the fighter and the lawn of the White House to make these deplorable, racist, homophobic, misogynist comments because Donald has nowhere to go. And because of Donald's racist view of the world, the idea that there is a black couple who are sophisticated, elegant, educated and beloved is something he cannot process. It just does not process in his mind. And, you know, Donald is not sui generis. He didn't appear out of nowhere. This is a reflection of deep culture in our society and our failure to mature into a society that recognizes that the color of your skin, skin, the color of your eyes, your height, your body, build, has absolutely nothing to do with your character. Absolutely nothing. But if you have no character and Donald has no character, no moral core, then all you can do is denounce, strikeout, attack, send your goons to go after people, whether they are the FBI agents being coerced into investigating Gavin Newsom's wife or the goons who are at the courthouse in St. Paul attacking people right outside the door. And this is a terrible stain. But the longer it goes on without any serious pushback by the Republican leadership on Capitol Hill, the less confident I am that we will get past this. And we haven't seen yet what they're going to do for this election. But remember, they don't need to shut down all voting. They just need to in enough precincts, enough counties, terrify people so they don't vote, threaten people, set up inspection points that are maybe a mile away. But the road you're going to go down to go vote to interfere with this, this election and he has to do that, or once the Democrats have control of the House and possibly the Senate, they're going to tie him up as they should. Six weeks to Sunday should immediately investigate things like was it really just a mistake from an outdated map that led to the Deaths of those 140 some girls in Iran, or was it intentional? The 13Americans who died, the Pentagon was told this facility where at least half of those people were isn't secure. Did they get them out of there? No. Was that because pig takeseth doesn't know what he's doing? Was it in the hope through it? That would be really sick that this would enrage the American public. You know, what is it?

[Joy Reid]

And I have a theory. Well, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you, but to your question, one of the potential answers is grok. We now have some word that they are the Pentagon is using Elon Musk's Gro for targeting of missiles, which would be an even more horrifying development that they're using the same AI app that's making nudes, fake nudes of people on the interwebs to target people.

[David K. Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, this, I mean we're, we're in a real mess. But it's really important to not lose sight of the fact that we, the American people chose this. You and I didn't vote for Donald Trump, but that doesn't matter. Of the people who turned out to vote, a majority clearly chose him after the January 6 effort to overthrow our government, which really tells you that a majority of voters who actually cast ballots hate the United States of America.

[Joy Reid]

David K. Johnston I can't argue with you because the reality is if you really think about American history and the lost opportunities to reconcile ourselves with the sin of being a slave empire and the fact that we've refused to really reckon with it and refuse to deal with it in many, many, many ways, Donald Trump is the natural result of our failures and choices over 250 years. Unfortunately, he is America's just desserts in so many ways. And it's sad but it's true.

[David K. Johnson]

Well, maybe someday we'll find something to argue about.

[Joy Reid]

One day we will disagree. David K. Johnson, I appreciate you have a great time in dc. Much love to your wife and family and be well. I'll talk to you soon.

[David K. Johnson]

Bye, Joy.

[Joy Reid]

Thank you very much. That's true. One day we will argue. David, David, David and I, we just, we agree on most everything. Lots and lots and lots and lots of things. But it is sad. This might just be what America deserves. Let's note one of our other incredible sponsors who make this show possible. The Joy Read show is brought to you by our friends at Helix. Now we have a wonderful king size sleeper that's got like a cooling function to it which we ordered from Helix, which is fabulous, which is going to help us sleep better. Because sleeping better is like goals, right? It is goals. And the benefits of Helix are not just that it's a high quality and durable mattress that improves your sleep because they not only are high quality in the construction, but they also allow you to get a guarantee that it's going to work for you because they offer free shipping, seamless delivery and a 120 night sleep trial and a limited lifetime warranty. So if it isn't perfect for you, if it isn't absolutely ideal to improve your sleep and improve your life and make your body feel better in the morning, they will give you your money back. It's a happy with Helix guarantee you rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges and that offers you a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure that you are completely satisfied with your new mattress. It's an award winning mattress, the most award winning mattress brand. It's been tested and reviewed by experts at Forbes, Wired and all sorts of other folks. If you want to sleep well, it starts with getting the right mattress that is like fundamental to your sleep health. And sleep health is so important, particularly in these stressful times. If you want to try helix, go to helixsleep.com joy for 20% off site wide, 25% off the luxe mattresses, which is the brand that we have and 30% off the elite mattresses. That's helix sleep.com joy for 20% off site wide, 25% off luxe mattresses, 30% off elite mattresses. Helix sleep.com joy thank y' all for sponsoring this show. So this let me show you all the poop diaper stud who mocked Michelle Obama by calling her a man.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

So what?

[David K. Johnson]

Maybe I was drinking last night,

[Senator Chris Murphy]

but who won it?

[Joy Reid]

Who wouldn't be?

[David K. Johnson]

I have A giant black man that wants to knock me out is the

[Joy Reid]

most knockouts in UFC history. Hey, I've seen enough. Yeah, Josh Hokut. I didn't know who he was before this, but that's the man. Luckily for him, no one will ever accuse him of being a man. Joining now is Dr. Freda Fisher, a quadruple board certified physician, nephrologist, and host of Dr. Freda Live. She reaches over 982,000 YouTube subscribers and 72 million plus viewers view. She's the founder and president of Midtown Atlanta Nephrology PC and the medical director of the nonprofit dialysis unit. Hey, Dr. Freda.

[Robbie Jones]

Hello.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Hello. How are you doing?

[Joy Reid]

I'm doing very well. So let's talk about that. So this person, because I can't even call him a man because, ew, look at him. He was spitting up on himself drunk as hell during the weigh in. That disgusting, gross creature still beat another, maybe even more beta man, and then called Michelle Obama out of her name. Your thoughts on what that means?

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

If anything, when I first heard him call her out of her name and I saw that Joe Rogan didn't say anything, Trump smirked. The audience laughed. Honestly, I first thought that it was AI and then once I started seeing it repeated on reputable news sources and realized that it was real, and I saw the different people with the talking points, the political points, and how dare you. What I didn't see was the, you know, the majority of people who are Trump supporters, I did not see them come out and denounce. You see a little handful of people with maybe some, you know, just kind of some predictable statements. But honestly, what I thought was my personal feeling, how I felt my heart having palpitations. I felt my chest tighten. I felt personally humiliated as a black woman, as First Lady Michelle Obama is. And then it took me immediately joy to the data that we have. We literally have data that systemic racism, chronic discrimination, and also public humiliation. We have data that these things increase cardiovascular negative outcomes. And as I sat there experiencing those emotions, I know I'm not alone. I realized this is what happens. This is why so many black people, and black women specifically, have poorer cardiovascular outcomes when compared to other ethnic groups. This is why so many of us have increased strokes. It actually is real. And even the American Heart association recognizes that chronic discrimination and systemic racism are associated with increased cardiovascular risks like strokes. We have data, and it's very upsetting.

[Joy Reid]

And I wonder then, how much worse does it become when somebody like, I don't know, Stephen A. Smith Weighs in on the UFC bloodsport and kind of ignores what happened. Let's just play that as apologies with both apologies to the many chat. Let's play a little of Stephen A. Smith and a friend.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Great, great event that was put forth by the UFC at the White House in concert with the White House or whatever. It did a hell of a job. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Joy Reid]

I was there. 4,000 seat arena, I gotta be honest,

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

coming off the NBA Finals, where I

[Joy Reid]

was at multiple NBA Finals. Better event than NBA Final.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Finals.

[Jason]

Wow.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Just.

[David K. Johnson]

It was, it was a better event than NBA Finals.

[Joy Reid]

But the White House literally being right there.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Incredible.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, first of all, the idea that that was a better event than the NBA Finals, a completely corrupt private pay per view event on our property with people beating the crap out of each other, blood splattering everywhere. Donald Trump sleeping through the whole thing and then capping it off with Michelle Obama being called out of her name and called a man. And they are like, well, you know, they don't. They. Apparently nothing happened that they saw. That was weird. Yeah. How much does that, how much worse does that make?

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Makes it just entirely worse. Because you're not just talking about a group of people, black women specifically, who are being mistreated by others. You're looking at the people who are supposed to support us, people within our community, Black men who unfortunately sometimes seem to care more about power and money as opposed to really standing up for what is proper. They're talking about. Yeah, right there on the White House lawn. Well, right there on the White House lawn is where not only was Michelle Obama disrespected, but where it's been the host of so many other black women being disrespected. Be it, you know, Trump saying that Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson has a low IQ or making up all of these rumors on Vice President Kamala Harris saying how she was able to get herself to the top. Or if it's calling Representative Jasmine Crockett saying she has a low iq, or disrespecting black female reporters like journalists like Abby Phillip, Rachel Scott, April Ryan, who was in there from the start, all these other things have happened on the White House lawn. Yet they're sitting up here completely ignoring the fact that our first lady, Princeton graduate, Harvard Law graduate, has been misgendered, which of course is just a permission structure for black women to have violence inflicted upon us. It's really, really quite sad.

[Robbie Jones]

Yeah.

[Joy Reid]

And it's interesting that that meme of black women being masculine and manly all was sort of Developed and grew up around the same time that slavers, slaveholders were raping black women to such an accelerated degree that they invented light skinned people. Like they made a whole new kind of black people because they raped so many women. They were just systematically raping and then selling their, the products, selling the children, such that they were creating generation after generation of children who were mixed race, not because they were in relationships, these people were property. And they were literally systematically ravaging them. And they, I mean, and yet also disparaging them as lazy and dirty and terrible. Too, too dirty to share a water fountain with, but not dirty enough to literally breastfeed your child for you. You know, it's like the dichotomy makes no sense.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

It makes no sense, but it makes all the sense. Because the greatest trick of the oppressor is to convince the oppressed that they are not worthy, right? And it gets, it seeps into the self esteem causing, you know, colorism even within the community. But to your point, yes, good enough to breastfeed your babies. Good enough for you to have babies with. You know, we're so undesirable and masculine, unattractive, yet we're good enough for you to get lip fillers, to try to, you know, mimic lips of black women. Good enough for you to get cheekbone implants. Good enough for you to tan. Good enough for you to get perms. Good enough for you to have cornrows. Where if a person from another community, not the black community, has cornrows, then all of a sudden they're Bo Derek's or Kim Kardashians. All of this goes toward the stress that is felt when black women, I talk about black women specifically experience this systemic racism and oppression and just dehumanization. And what happens, Joy, is that when you experience like public humiliation in systemic race and things of that nature, it causes cortisol to spike. When cortisol spikes, it causes blood vessels to tighten. When blood vessels tighten, that causes blood pressure to rise. And of course high blood pressure is a leading cause of strokes, heart disease, it's the second leading cause of kidney disease. And I am a board certified kidney doctor and a high blood pressure specialist. And these are things that I see every day. And it's important for people to understand that when you have these emotions or when you know right before your eyes that you're experiencing discrimination or racism or the masculinization of black women, it's not just you. So please don't allow people to gaslight you. This is documented. And the way you feel needs to be talked out, you know, because we all see it, we're all experiencing it. Even though, you know, some folks want to act like it doesn't exist.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. You know who seemed unbothered though? Michelle Obama. Michelle Obama and Barack Obama were opening his presidential library. Let me play a little clip of the opening ceremony. Yes, let's play that. I am so proud of my husband. He's really messed up. I'm giving him some time because this beautiful skirt that my stylist Meredith Coup picked out, that is a portrait, my favorite portrait of my mom. He didn't know it existed until just a few minutes ago. Marion would have been so proud. She was so proud of her son in law and the man that he is and has been to our family. Always dreaming, probably way too big, but always pulling it off. Thank you for doing this for the south side of Chicago. I love you.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I am a little shaken up by

[Joy Reid]

this because I love my mother in

[David K. Johnson]

law and she made a home for Michelle and Craig.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Not with a lot, but with a

[David K. Johnson]

lot of love and hope and perspective.

[Joy Reid]

They represent

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

to me what's best about this country.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, in so many fundamental ways, Barack Obama is the anti Stephen A. Smith. Supportive of black women, supportive of his wife. There's a part at the end where he says, thank you, baby, which was so cute. And.

[Robbie Jones]

Yeah.

[Joy Reid]

And then there's also this photo which we'll put up of the beautiful portrait that was done by Njedika Akinyili Crosby, the artist of them at the new library. So that love and support that they're showing for each other is like the antidote.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Right.

[Joy Reid]

It's like literally bringing my cortisol down as I look at it.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Absolutely. And I'm not gonna lie, when I first saw what happened, I was like, ooh, Michelle Obama, please don't go high where they went low. But this is how you go high. This is how you go high. She's unbothered. Nothing that they say about her can take away her family, can take away her accomplishments, can take away that. She's arguably the most popular first lady in history. And it's just gonna be so important for us as a people not to allow the, you know, the humiliation, the systemic racism, the defaming of our characters, the misgendering, the masculinization of black women, adultification of black girls. We just have to talk it out. And, you know, in cases where people are getting, like, truly depressed, because, I'll tell you, public humiliation, again, documented to show that it can increase Anxiety and depression. If you're someone who is hearing these words and they're causing these different situations and they're causing you to be extremely stressed and depressed, make sure you consult with your doctor, you know, and certainly don't be afraid to go and get mental health. And I know that First Lady Michelle Obama is a huge advocate of mental health. So, yeah, that made my cortisol go down too, Joy.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, it did, because I was. I started furiously scrolling for Michelle Obama's clapback, waiting for her to take that man apart. Now, of course, I was petty. I'm petty, Davis. I'm like unabashedly petty. So I went on and talked about him because he does look like he poop his pants or like he leave it on. I put it right on my Instagram. I'm like, I know I'm being real super petty, and Michelle Obama would not be proud of me, but I'm like, I'm gonna let her be mad at me if she mad at me for being mean because that man looked gross and disgusting and stanky. So I said it first so she didn't have to. But when I looked for a response from her, all I found was these amazing clips of that opening and her leaning into her truth, leading into her relationship, her love for her family, for her husband, and for this beautiful center that's gonna give people hope on the south side. On the south, south side of Chicago. So it's like Michelle Obama might be the antidote to the way that we're feeling, and she's probably part of our healing.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree.

[Joy Reid]

And that's why they jealous of her. I mean, the right is so envious of the Obamas because they love each other in an inverse way to the way that Trumps hate each other. Like, it's clear that Ms. Melania Trump hates it.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Joy, can we just talk about. I'm not going to even talk about our current First Lady, Melania too terribly much, but I am going to say, can we just talk about when she completely plagiarized word for word for word, the speech of Michelle Obama. If First Lady Michelle Obama is such an undesirable, why can't you even go get your original speech? The respect is there and of course the envy is there is so apparent. Like you said, the Obamas are unbothered, untouchable.

[Joy Reid]

And yeah, Michelle Obama, if those, for those of you who are too young or don't remember, created a program on anti bullying called Be Better. And because Melania Trump is maybe illiterate or maybe because this is her second language, she named hers Be Best. Be best, which is poor English. I find it so hilarious when I even think about it. It's literally atrocious English. Be best. You mean be the best.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

I think her supporters, like, the people who are around her speech writer, had to have known that that speech was plagiarized. Whoever.

[Joy Reid]

She literally lifted the whole speech.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Like, does. Does someone hate her? The people in the White House around her? I don't know. I don't know, but it's just a sharp contrast.

[Joy Reid]

I think they hate her. I think they hate her like she hates decorating for Christmas. Why do I have to do it? It's so stupid. Why do I have to do it? I have to. I can do it. She hates Christmas, and they hate her. I. I'll put that on me. Dr. Freed is much nicer than me. I'm Pettico.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

We're not going high. First lady Michelle Obama's gonna be mad at all of us. She will.

[Joy Reid]

That's true. That's true. I don't want to get her mad at you. Are you planning on visiting the presidential library anytime soon?

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

I am. I don't have my date set, but I definitely want to go and get my kids together and just be a part of this historical moment. I'm so proud. It's just unbelievable. While history is being ripped down all around us, the Obamas are. Are holding us up.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, indeed. Dr. Freda, you're also holding us up. We appreciate you so much. Everybody, please follow Dr. Freda. We'll put the link up below. Make sure you guys are following her if you're not doing that already. Dr. Freda, stay strong. Says to keep that cortisol down. Don't let the haters bring you down.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Okay. And can I share in order to keep the cortisol down? Also, I do have a book under pressure. God's Controlling High Blood Pressure, and I just release my audiobook. So if you go to Dr. Freda.com, you have the audible book done in my voice, which was a venture, but I talk about not only medical ways lower blood pressure, but natural ways. And so that's another way to keep the cortisol down.

[Joy Reid]

Oh, okay, we're gonna jump on that. Doctorfrida.com. go ahead and get your audiobooks, y'. All. I'm about to do it. As soon as the show's done. That's what I'm gonna be downloading, too, because I need to keep mine down as well. Also, help helps you lose weight. When your cortisol is down. Thank you, sis. Thank you very much, Doctor. Appreciate you.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Thank you.

[Joy Reid]

All right. Oh, there you go. So you can get your cortisol down. And look, I'm telling you, high cortisol is also a weight gain indicator. So if you get your cortisol down, if you're trying to lose weight, you got to keep your cortisol down. It also helps you get to sleep. And you keep your cortisol down. It helps you fall asleep. So we will put that in the link. Yes, we will. It's called Dr. Frita.com. so just d, R, F, R I T. There it is. It's up on the screen. Win some. If you could put it in the chat as well so people can click on it if they want to and then hold on to that and get the audiobook. That way you got. And we'll work on trying to get it in the store too. We'll try to get the actual physical book in the store. Didn't realize she had a new book out. So that's fabric. We're going to chill and settle down. Says polka dot. Polka.com said, oh, I lower your blood pressure. Says, what is this? Tuba. Tuba sun God says, I lower my. I'm gonna try. I do. I do my best. All right, everybody, thank you very much. Dr. Peter Fisher. I want to mention that another thing that also will help you to feel better is get that blood pressure down. And getting that. That will help you also get your blood pressure down. While we're talking about getting your blood pressure down, our other sponsor, 120Life. Now listen, June is when summer begins. Schedules change, travel picks up, cookouts, long weekends, family events. Life gets busy. And also the right wing acting up daggone full getting that blood pressure up. And your health routines have got to stay locked in. High blood pressure does not take the summer off, y'.

[David K. Johnson]

All.

[Joy Reid]

Nearly half of all adults have it. Most don't know it. Most aren't doing much about it. And blood pressure, to the point Dr. Freda was also making is the number one risk factor for mortality. You don't want that. That's why June is a perfect time to stop guessing and start measuring. Before summer gets away from you. Check your numbers. You want to make sure that blood pressure is on an even keel. You start a simple daily routine and actually do something to keep your blood pressure low. One of the things you can include in that is 120 life. 120 life is a once a day functional drink made from ingredients that Help support healthy blood pressure. You drink it, then you check your numbers. For a lot of people, they see improvement in as little as two weeks. So try it for 14 days after checking your numbers. And after 14 days, if your numbers don't go down, you can get a full refund. It actually tastes terrific. It has, like, a nice, like, beady kind of flavor. It's made from a blend of superfruit juices. Fits in your normal life if you're at home traveling, trying to stay consistent during a busy summer. And the powdered version, if you want to pop that into your bag so you don't have to check your luggage. Right. If you're somebody who wants to take your luggage on the plane, do the powdered version. It's only got one gram of sugar, so it also keeps your sugar low. Go to 120life.com. That's 1-20-life.com. use the code joy or the code read. Our code will get you 20% off. Try it risk free for two weeks. If your blood pressure doesn't come down, you get a full refund. Go to 120life.com. Use my code joy or the code read to save 20%. Don't wait until next month. You got nothing to lose except your higher blood pressure. Go to 120life.com. Use my code joy or the code read for 20% off. Joy or read is the code. These statements have not been approved by the food and drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Okay. So welcome to our two of the Joy Reid show. If you haven't done it yet, please hit that like and subscribe button. We really appreciate it. Don't be a lurker. About 50 to 54% of people who watch YouTube shows actually don't subscribe. They just watch and move on. Don't do that. We want you to be a part of the fam. Just hit like, hit subscribe. Also hit the little notification bell and then hit all. So you'll always be aware when we're live. It's more fun being on live because you can interact with the people in real time. So we'd love it if you do that. Want to pick up one more sponsor, and that's our sponsor, Remy. Remy. Now, Remy is one of those things you need if you've got a very particular issue that can also keep you up. Like we're on a health kind of thing on a theme on this show. Grinding your teeth, which is something raising my hand. I do. And grinding your Teeth is something you normally go into the dentist for. And they ask you, well, how do you stop it? A mouth guard is a really great way to do it, particularly if you grind your teeth when you sleep. And 350,000Americans have turned to Remy as the solution to that. Remy night guards are the only FDA cleared and clinically tested at home impression kit night guards on the market. Not only do they help prevent your teeth getting damaged from grinding, they also help reduce jaw tension and facial muscle strain, which will help your sleep quality. You get the same professional quality and comfort as a night guard from the dentist for 80% less of the cost. By taking your own impression from the convenience of your home, Remy saves you saves your impressions once they make them. So you can always get refills easily to your door. And here's how it works. After you buy it, your impression kit comes straight to your door. You follow the step by step instructions, you get your perfect impression, you send it in. Remy crafts and ships your custom night guard and you get your night guard back and you start protecting your teeth. Very simple, very easy to use. Anyone can do it. The instructions are clear, which is really important for me because, you know, menopause, I need clear instructions. Protect your teeth with Remy today by using Code Joy to get 50 off your new nightguard with Remy club. Subscribe and save. That's 50% off@shop remy.com joy with the code J O Y Joy thank you, Remy, for sponsoring this episode. So we are talking a lot on this show about Donald Trump's kind of exposing himself and really exposing who he is and what he is so that the world truly understands it, which is a good thing because it is now a fact that more people understand that it was a huge mistake to give him the power that he has. But that is only step one. The next choice that has to be made by the American people is where do we move on from here? Who should hold that office next and what will they offer? What will they put on the table that is different from what we're seeing today, such that they can clean up the mess that Donald Trump has made, but also give people hope that there is any hope that the American presidency can be moral, can be effective at making people's lives better? Because there's a lot of doubt about that. I mean, I'm in New York City today where people are starting to feel good about at least city government being able to materially make your life better. That is Mamdani's sort of coup that he's pulled off is that he's been able to show people that a government leader can actually materially make your life better. That's one of the great things that he's done. But the question is, do people believe a president can do that? And so there's a lot of talk. You know, I would tell you, even my reporting is that most of the people in the know believe that Kamala Harris is going to run for president again. We know that her run for President, that 107 days we interviewed her about it on this show, was a whirlwind. But it was also her attempting to run in a handoff from Joe Biden. In a handoff from Joe Biden, who had one glaring mark on his presidency. In his otherwise effective presidency, very effective at domestic policy, very effective at rebuilding infrastructure, not so effective at communicating, because that's not his game. He's not a communicator. And also not at all effective at getting the right to stop trying to destroy him and his son and accept the bounty he was delivering mainly to red states. But when it came to his international foreign policy, Joe Biden was a typical American president in that he was aggressive about the use of foreign. Of a military power. And also sort of strangely for how empathetic. He was completely blind to the pain of people in the Muslim world, completely disinterested in the lives of the Palestinian people and in their deaths, completely cold to them and completely warm to whatever it is Israel wanted to do. And Kamala Harris got burdened with that. So at a recent conference at the annual Schwarzenegger Climate Initiative's Austria World Summit in Vienna, Kamala Harris gets asked, you know, because a lot of people, including Trump, were claiming that if she became president, she would start World War iii. Remember that? That meme was very. Was prevalent throughout the interwebs and even in these streets. So she was asked about Trump, Trump and Netanyahu's war in Iran. And this is what she said. If you were president, you never start this war. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And let's be clear about this. Let's be clear about this.

[David K. Johnson]

Thank you, Tim.

[Joy Reid]

Let's be clear about this. Whatever is being negotiated, this president is going to declare victory and will end up where we were after the JCPOA and call that a victory, the jcpoa,

[Robbie Jones]

that he withdrew from the Obama nuclear agreement. And so you. So you're not. I mean, that's your thought on this.

[Joy Reid]

This potential thoughts, but that's not why we're here.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, I would love to hear her more thought she did. She did expound on it a little bit more. But seeing Kamala Harris talk about the Iran war does cause one to lean into the questions about the opportunity cost of making the choice of that. To David K. Johnson's point, a majority of Americans made as opposed to choosing her. It is a question that sort of remains unanswerable in many ways of what would have been the difference had she been the person in charge. Now, it's clear that there would have been no reason to start a war with Iran if she were president because we already had the JCPOA and, you know, she wouldn't have pulled out of it in the first place. Maybe she'd have gone back and do it, I don't know. But in the really terrific piece called the Next Black President, one of the seminal thinkers, public intellectuals of our time, one of the great writers of our time, Ta Nehisi Coates, takes us through the history of American empire and asked the question, if a black and Asian woman, the daughter of immigrants who came from countries that had been the victims of colonialism, came from colonial entities that had been besieged by Britain.

[David K. Johnson]

Right.

[Joy Reid]

If somebody, the daughter of some of two parents from that background and who's also a woman and a black woman and an Asian woman, a woman of color, can she truly embody the imperial state? Now, this piece was written on the presumption that Kamala Harris indeed will, or at least could run for president. The piece is called the Next Black President. Here's a quote. A black presidency is a contradiction. It owes its power to a movement against racist state violence at home, but seeks an office which has always practiced racist state violence abroad. And joining me now is award winning author and journalist Ta Nehisi Coates. His books include the Water Dancer and the Message. He's currently contributing editor at Vanity Fair and this is his the Joy Reacho debut, but always one of my favorite interviews. Ta Nehisi Coates.

[David K. Johnson]

Welcome, Joy.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Thank you for having me. I'm glad we finally made this work.

[Joy Reid]

Absolutely. Same here. So, Ta Nehisi, your piece was excellent, by the way. And I've cautioned everyone they should read it and take it all in. I've read it twice. Talk to me about this because the idea of empire and you go through the sort of brain numbing sequence of American empirical aggression and then say, you're gonna land that in this lady's lap. Say more.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah. Well, I have to say one thing. First of all, I owe this piece to you, Joy. That's the first Thing. If there's one person who inspired this piece, it really was. I mean, there's a famous clip now as viral as they say, of you on cnn, describing to people the history of American aggression towards Iran. And the response. And what really stunned me about that, first of all, I didn't really have a history down myself. Let me start with my own ignorance. But I don't go on TV and present myself as an expert on why the United States should go to war with Iran. But the people on your panel did. And it became very, very clear to me that they did not know the history either. It wasn't like they were disputing the points you were making, you know what I mean? Or the history. They literally just did not know it. They did not know it. And I'll just say that what has happened in my life personally over the past few years is I have spent more and more time around people who live under the weight of this country's imperial ignorance. And I have asked myself, you know, what I feel like is an existential question for us as black people, for the struggle that we root ourselves in, for the ancestors that we feel ourselves tied to, for the progeny that comes after us, we feel ourselves tied to. And that is what is the nature of our struggle? Is the nature of our struggle to, as Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley says in that article, bring others along with us? Or is the nature of our struggle to do as so many other groups have done? We've come into this country, and that is to become a part of the machine and to integrate, as James Baldwin once said, a burning house. You know where I stand on that, and you know, what were my thoughts on that? But probably over the past couple years, that question has become more and more urgent. And the last thing I'll say is the reason why is because this is 2026. So we are going on 25 years now of black faces that have been representative of doing great violence in the Arab and the Muslim world. We had Condi Rice, we had Colin Powell. We had President Barack Obama himself. We had Linda Thomas Greenfield, we had Susan Rice. I make no condemnation, particularly of these people, outside of any condemnation I would deliver to anybody else. That's not really my point. But my point is by becoming part of the machine, this is an inevitability. It is not that they have greater or lesser moral character than anybody else. It is the nature of structure. And it was always my hope that we had come to trouble structure, not to just merely accept it.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, I mean, it is always sat a certain way in my spirit, that it was President Obama that killed Muammar Gaddafi. You can think whatever you want of Muammar Gaddafi. He was represented as a bad guy. But if you go on the continent, they revere. A lot of people there, revere Muammar Gaddafi because he was trying to bring Africa under one currency. And they saw that as a valuable thing to try to fight the West. Right. You know, you and Troy not just.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Please, not just killed him, had him dragged out of a pipe and sodomized and killed, and then his secretary of state laughed about it. Yeah, like that was our message. Yeah, that was our message to the rest of the world. You know, sorry, forgive me.

[Joy Reid]

No, no, no, not at all. And that is after President Obama had gone to Cairo and given this beautiful speech about having to change the way that we interact with the Muslim world. That is the guy that then gets tasked with this assassination, as you said, with a bayonet. I mean, they literally sodomized him with a bayonet and then killed him. The Americans didn't do it, but we delivered him to that, pulled him out of a drain pipe, so that could happen even with Saddam Hussein. You reminded me in this piece, in your piece, in the Vanity Fair piece, Saddam Hussein was only in power because of us, because we overthrew the previous government, put him in, and we said, this is our guy, and then call that. When it was the Iran Iraq war, we sided with the Saddam, gave him the chemical weapons with which to kill Iranians, and then said, hey, man, you got. You got chemical weapons. It's like, yeah, you gave them to him, and then we topple his statue and we're the hero. But I.

[David K. Johnson]

It is.

[Joy Reid]

It is a strange thing to say for a black woman, because I remember when Kamala Harris said, we're going to be the strongest military on earth. That's what she has to say. But is that what she should say?

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Most lethal? Most lethal. That's what it was. You know, it was the lethality of it. And I think. Let me speak first of all in sympathy, because, look, I get it. You're a black woman. You know what I mean? Your name is Kamala. You know what they're going to say about you, you know, the campaign that they're going to wage around. I am under no illusions as to the weight that she was carried and the viciousness of the attacks that came her way to continue to come her way. That is not in question for me at all. On one level, I am deeply. I Mean, it hurts to have this conversation because I feel bad for it, right? Like, on one level, I feel bad that this is the weight, you know what I mean, that you have to carry. But at the same time, it's like, what was the struggle for? And the fact of the matter is, any sort of ancestral consideration of this says that this is what we have already done. Look, Fannie Lou Hamer, who Kamala and the entire DNC cited as. She didn't have to say anything about Vietnam, you know what I mean? In fact, there were tons of voices within the movement that wish that she did not. Coretta Scott King, before her husband, before her husband in 1965, goes to New York, allies herself with other anti war forces and says, listen, I'm heartened that Johnson has such great sympathy for us, but how can he not have sympathy for the children of Vietnam? She had to do that. She didn't have to do that. And the SCLC was very upset that she didn't do that. So this is the tradition.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Yeah.

[Joy Reid]

And the thing is, if you think about. It's the harder route, right. Muhammad Ali giving up his title belt to say, I'm not fighting those men in Vietnam. It's the Fred Hampton route, which can be deadly. And it's the King route, as you said. King didn't get more popular when he turned against the Vietnam War. He got more unpopular. People hated him. And so it's like the. The idea of a black. You know, Shirley Chisholm did it. Shirley Chisholm was like, this is where I stand. All people of color around the world. And you see, she didn't get very far. Be incoming president.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a danger. Look, I.

[Joy Reid]

If you think about where Kamala will go on, please.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

No, no, I just wanted to. I was just affirming your point. Having no illusions about the danger of it and the weight of it. None but joy, if that is the case.

[Joy Reid]

So, yeah, go.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

If that's the case, don't hold your convention and shout out Fannie Lou Hamer. Like, don't. Don't shout out the person. Don't say, my inspiration is the person that walked that route. Because that's not your route. That's not your route. That's not what you're doing. That's not what you came to do. And so I feel that while there may be a pragmatic argument for maybe not, although I don't think it's a real one, but you know what I mean, if you want to make that argument, you can't then shout out the visionaries and the people that carry the burden. You can't have it both ways.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. The other thing that your article brings out, and it's something that you've taken, you know, heat from from, at least from CBS News, from the. You know, from the current anchor of CBS Evening News who had a problem with it. But the issue of Palestine is something that was a ballast around the ankles of Kamala Harris. Just whether they like it or not, they don't seem to be excited about admitting it. But you talk about some of the people that you and I both know who have been to the region. Latasha Brown, Tiffany Cross, people who've been there and said, oh, I see apartheid here, who saw it. They saw the apartheid just as you did. And so it's hard for, I think, folks like that to imagine. It was hard for me to imagine why Kamala Harris, who clearly has been to the region and knows the region, would not be more forthright in saying, this is one piece of oppression I can stand against, and I will stand against as president. I will stand for the Palestinian people.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I think a couple of things, man. I think one of the things that I was reminded of by people in that piece that I probably disagree with on her ultimate stance, right? But you learn from. Especially your sisters. Even when they land, you learn from her, right? So one of the things that I learned was that to understand Kamala Harris as an abstraction, in other words, as an individual, first black woman president is actually the wrong way. You have to understand her as the result of a movement that began circa 2020, certainly has roots earlier than that. That delivered you your first black Supreme Court justice. That delivered you your first black woman. I'm sorry, first black woman Supreme Court justice. Delivered you your first black woman on the Fed, led to Joe Biden appointing a record number of black women, led to all of these policies around that cut child poverty, cut black child poverty, cut black under black. These are real things. Right. People are not just, you know, making shit up and, you know, becoming cowards. And so it takes a lot. It takes like, that's a movement that folks have worked for, that stands on the shoulders of other movements. And you really want to believe that, okay, if we can get her through, once she's through, you know what I mean? She will do the right thing. I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't know that I came away from this piece thinking that I came away from it thinking, of course she would have been better than Trump. We all know that. We do know that, but that's not the bar for me. That may be the bar for my vote, and it was the bar for my vote, but it is. Voting is not the end of my politics. So it's not the bar for my politics.

[Joy Reid]

You know, can you. Having gone through this exercise of really thinking through how a black president. Because we've seen a black president that did not really stand against Empire, unfortunately, probably couldn't, because he was the first. Can you imagine a black president that could.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Yes, yes, I can. I actually can imagine her doing it. I can imagine her because I think, like, one of the things that gets missed is I can't tell you if she had affirmed the humanity of Palestinians, if you know what I mean. She had done the things that I think a lot of us wished that she had done. I can't tell you she would have won. I can tell you she would have lost with honor, though. And I can tell you that how people felt about her going into 2028 would be totally different, because it would be. She lost over standing for God. She lost on, you know, trying to prevent a genocide. And I think people would feel very, very different, you know, about that. But I just, you know, I go back to where we started this at the beginning. Joy. It takes an incredible, incredible amount of courage, and it probably takes a movement. Like, when you think about, you know, her getting there, you know, it probably takes, like, a lot more. And I, you know, I don't know what that. Actually, I do. I do. What am I saying? I don't. The circle that was around her, the circle that. And not just because she's Kamala Harris, but because she was the Democratic nominee and because she had such a short amount of time. Thus the circle that would have been around any Democratic nominee at that time was not a circle that would have reinforced, affirming the life of Palestinian people and thus our own lives, by the way. I gotta get that in. And thus our own lives. And I don't wanna talk too much, but I'll come back to that in a moment.

[Joy Reid]

No, no, I want you to say more because I think that's the disconnect. Even some of the people in the chat, there's become a disconnect because a large plurality of Arab Americans and Muslim Americans voted for Trump in anger against the Biden Harris administration. There's still a lot of anger. You and I talked about that. A lot of anger and residual anger at them from a lot of black voters. But fundamentally, the rights of the Palestinian People, it is about us.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

It is about us. It is about us. And let me just. If you'll bear with me, Joy, I'm going to lay this case out. The first thing is what we were effectively asked to do was to look away from a genocide. And maybe people don't like that word, but I will just give you the numbers as laid out in the piece. The most lethal campaign this century against children that had ever been waged, and we were being asked to look away from the fact that our tax dollars was doing that in service of apartheid, a system that we ourselves have experienced. Now, I come from a people that uphold Coretta Scott King as a hero. I come from people that uphold Fannie Lou Hamer as a hero, that upholds Martin Luther King as a hero, to uphold Malcolm X as a hero. And so, like, these are the best of us. And so the first question I have to ask is, ancestrally, as those of us who are rooted in a much larger struggle, what part of the game is this? Like, where is the alignment there? Secondarily, I have to ask. Practically, Practically. The fact of the matter is maybe you don't think Gaza is that important. Maybe you think you have the ability to not really care about what your tax dollars are doing at this moment. The fact of the matter is the rest of the country is moving another way. You know what I mean? That's the fact. The real truth is that there aren't enough Arab Americans to cost her the vote, but there are enough young people that care about this to cost her to vote. So the very practical politics are going. So people say to me, ta Nehisi, you know what I mean? Why would you support this group of people, this struggle over your own? But I say to you, why are you tied to this ideology that you would sacrifice your struggle over your own? Like, you think you have the luxury of ignoring this? You do not. You do not. War is at your door. And then thirdly, morally, morally, morally, I'd have to ask you, those of us who are concerned about what we saw ICE doing in Minneapolis, those of us who are appalled when we see ICE officers rappelling from Black Hawk helicopters on the projects on the south side, separating people by race, brothers and sisters, where do you think that came from? How do you think that started? You think that started with us? Do you understand the history of where ICE and the Department of Homeland Security comes from? And so this notion that you can stand aside while they make war on another group of people, and that's not gonna come to you. You're out your damn mind. They are coming for us. They are coming for us. Our enemies are looking around the world making alliances. They're looking at Hungary making alliances. They're looking at Europe making alliances. And we have this notion of that we can stay here and we can shut our eyes and we will be okay. And let me just amend that and say we don't have that notion because in fact, there are a lot of black people who do see this. You know what I mean? In fact, we were the most concerned about that. So let me just say that there are some of us, there's some of us who have that notion that we can just close our eyes and wait for water to come to us and deal with it, you know, like that. I hear the social man, you know, we're losing everything. They're taking away our right to vote. You know, they're doing this. They are. It's true, it's true. But if you're fighting on one front and they're fighting you on 10, I

[Jason]

mean,

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I don't see the practical win in that.

[Joy Reid]

I don't either.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Practical politics in that.

[Joy Reid]

And there's a one word answer to why that fight is our fight. And the answer is Palantir. You know, back when enslavement was taking place, they would perform experiments on enslaved black women in order to create treatments and, you know, ways in which they could treat white women. Right? And now the people being experimented with to death, which we were, are Palestinians. If you don't think that they practice clearing Gaza to show how you could clear Nigeria if they wanted that land, or how the South Africans cleared the Kikuyu and the Khosa off of their land. They practice on them and Palantir works for both them and Ice when they're killing them over there with drones, they now learned with precision how to kill Palestinians. And then they know how to kill Americans in Minneapolis and in New Orleans and wherever they want, because it's the same company. And they're just using them as the experiments the way they used to use us. That is who Palestinians are. They're the unloved, uncared for people of the earth that the world has decided are useless and nameless and nationless. And you can do anything to them. And then once they're done doing it to them, y' all don't think they're gonna come here and do it.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You think they're gonna stop there? You think they stopping there? Like when, when it. When, when, when is that? When has that ever happened? You know what I mean? And so, look, I sympathize with the perspective because, yo, it's a lot to carry. I get it. It really is a lot to carry, you know what I mean? You feel yourself under assault every day in your own community. And not only that, let's just acknowledge this, right? Like, people who I and you are asking us to be sympathetic about come to this country and treat us away right? Like they treat us a way that is not great, you know what I mean? And they themselves are not always in solidarity with us. I see that. I see it. You know what I mean? And I know it is a huge, huge ask, but I don't have a version of love and care for the people out of which I come. The struggle out of which I come, the community out of which I come, the ancestors on whose shoulders I stand. It does not allow me to say the hard thing.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. And this is where SNCC was. This is where we were on South Africa, which most black Americans at the time had never been to. But we were taking up the struggle of black people far, far, far away because it was the same struggle, because apartheid. There was apartheid here. And it's interesting that when Black Lives Matter struggle started, it was the Dream Defenders. That was the original group. And the Dream Defenders were started at FAMU by a black young man and a Palestinian young man. It was the two of them that started it. And so there's always been. I mean, people were holding Black Lives Matter signs up in the west bank and Gaza because they saw from their end that it's the same struggle, that hip hop was a foundational part of the early Palestinian struggle in the last 10 years. They see the struggle. And as you said, when people come here.

[David K. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Joy Reid]

The first card you punch is anti blackness. Everyone's taught that, but they're not taught that by us. They're taught that by the same people trying to hurt them and us.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

That's right. That's right, that's right. That's right. Listen, look, it's. It's. There is. There is a comfort in, you know, a kind of cloistering yourself, you know what I mean? And blackness itself has a kind of warmth. I get it. You know what I mean? And so, you know. You know, look, there certainly is a feeling in our community, you know, because, you know, we are the most segregated, right? And so, you know, we can go home and be perfectly happy, you know what I mean? With each other. But what I'm trying to say is that there are wolves at the Door. There are wolves at the door. And the fact that right now the bombs are being dropped on somebody else, it just doesn't mean they're not coming for you. They always come for you. And the second part of that is, look, I just want to say, on a human level, I just want to say, on a human level, look, during the election, I went before Arab American audiences, I went before Palestinian American audience and Muslim audience, and I was very clear about who I was voting for and why I was doing it. And I stand by that. I stand clear in my vote. But look, I got to tell you, man, I sat down in rooms where people said things to me like 200 members of my family in Gaza are dead. I just did not know how I could preserve my own sense of human decency and say, to save us collectively, you now have to vote for a member of an administration that was responsible. I just. I just. I didn't. I didn't have that in me. I didn't have that in me. You know what I mean? I just, you know, I couldn't get to that place. And when I thought about it, you know, I was like, well, does that mean. You know what I mean? I'm willing to see this country delivered into the arms of Trump. And as I thought through it, what I realized was. No, what it means is that if we have gotten to the point where we feel like our survival depends on telling another group of people that they have to watch their families be destroyed, we've done something wrong somewhere, we've gone off track.

[Robbie Jones]

Yeah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Something has, like. Something like we kind of have lost the plot. Like, actually, we should step back and examine ourselves.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. I mean, abolitionists at the time were not saying, you know, okay, okay, okay, they're doing slavery, but.

[Robbie Jones]

Right.

[Joy Reid]

There's no but. Like, no, there's no but.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

And the people who were saying that, you know what I mean, the people who were saying that, like, we. We don't actually. We don't hold them in high esteem. You know, we think they're terrible, you know, immoral people.

[Joy Reid]

Right.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know.

[Joy Reid]

Right. I sat in those rooms as you did. I sat with people who came to a book event or something and, you know, wanted to thank me for saying, you know, because people weren't saying anything. I think you and myself and Mehdi Hasan, two other people in Amy Moyeddine, you know, maybe the four of us, and, you know, would sit and hold my hands and say things like that to me, too. You know, 100 of my family members are dead. All my Cousins are dead, my parents are dead. And they, and they're. And when they're. I was like you. I couldn't have lived with myself if I had ordered and demanded those people to vote. As much as I was very clear that I was for Kamala Harris and was, you know, eager for her to be president and thought she would have been a fantastic president in so many ways. But for me, the problem is not so, so much her, it's the party. The Democratic Party is as married to this Israel over everything. Israel no matter what Israel, no matter what they do, no matter how many people they kill. The Democrats were as married to that as the Republicans. And so it would take a really strong Democrat, it would take a momdani style event to get a Democrat to say that they weren't getting down with that. But to me, I, going forward, cannot vote for a Democrat who does not pledge to end this relationship. This relationship needs to end. There's a nuclear, armed, expansionist power. They don't need our money and they definitely won't get my vote. That's just where I'm at.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Jordan, did you see Hillary Clinton's answer to the Trump question with David Rim? Did you see this?

[Joy Reid]

Say more for those who don't know.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I mean, Hillary Clinton was in an interview the other day, and obviously there may not be a human being alive who has more reason to hold Donald Trump in low regard than Hillary Clinton. But the one area that she praised Donald Trump on was on his gossip.

[Joy Reid]

Yes, she did. She praised the Abraham Accords, which I'm like,

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

she also praised the new one, like the 20 and the new one. Yes, she praised the new one too, which is absolutely, you know, but I actually, I raised that, you know, as bad as I think that is, I raised that to actually buttress your point, which is about the party itself. You know, like, I get that, you know, certain people feel a kind of anger, you know, towards Kamala. But the history of politicians and politics in America is not necessarily one of great individual courage against systems. In fact, what it is, is movements have been built like Abraham Lincoln comes out of a thing. You know what I mean? It's not that, look, he was great and everything, but to subtract him from the actual movement that he was part of Mrs. What actually Happens? I mean, Johnson becomes this remarkable president in terms of civil rights. In terms of civil rights, largely because of the demands that were being put up, put upon it. It became untenable.

[Joy Reid]

That's right. That's right.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

You know, it became untenable And Kamala Harris herself becomes vice president. You know, first black woman to become vice president. First woman to become vice president. Because a movement.

[Joy Reid]

That's right.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Organizes and demands it.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, that's right. And hopefully the movement will try to shift the Democratic Party. I don't see it on a wholesale level. They're too scared. They're still scared. I don't think any of them have endorsed Muhammadi. The leadership. So this is a longer conversation.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I think it's gonna be hard to get through the. I think it's gonna be hard to get through the primary, though. I really do.

[Joy Reid]

I agree. Oh, no, I agree. I've made the prediction that I don't think a pro Israel Democrat can get the nomination. I don't see how. Because I don't think they'll have the momentum. And I don't see how they win. Because if the choice is the lesser of two evils, you're gonna get what you got before, which is the largest group of voters are the people on the couch, and they vote to stay the hell home. And that's what happened.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Joy Reid]

And it'll happen again. The piece is called the Next Black President. I highly recommend you read it. Read it from the beginning to the end. Just the parts about Kennedy's part in the violent empirical project will blow your mind. You will understand why Malcolm X said the chickens came home to roost because I didn't even remember half of the stuff that this is. What?

[Robbie Jones]

Tanah.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I didn't know it. I didn't know it.

[Joy Reid]

Yo, bruh, it's crazy. Every.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

He was right. Malcolm was right.

[Joy Reid]

Malcolm, as usual, always right. Ta. Nehisi, thank you for all that you do. I appreciate your voice more than you can possibly know. Thank you so much.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Thank you, Joy. Thank you so much.

[Joy Reid]

Thank you. Thank you. Y', all, please get the book. You can get his book in our. His latest book, the Message in the Joy Reid Shop. I would highly recommend you get your hands on it because it is so good. And it talks about his own journey to the Middle east, where he himself was able to see with his own eyes what that apartheid system looks like. It changed fundamentally the way he thought about the region, about the history that is the book that he wrote that he was actually on CBS Morning show talking about when he was shaded. Not even shaded, I would say, defamed, honestly, by Tony Decouple and basically called a terrorist. And until you really wrap your mind around the horrors that we ourselves are funding in the Middle east, you cannot understand there's some people in the chat who are talking about the selfishness of the Palestinian pro Palestinian voters.

[David K. Johnson]

No.

[Joy Reid]

If 100 members of your family had been killed, me telling you to vote for somebody that was part of the administration that did it would actually be me being a horrible person. I wouldn't order you to do that at all. What I would say is that I can tell you that the alternative is worse, but that's a moral decision that I can't make for people who are losing their literal entire families. Thank you everybody to enjoy that conversation. A conversation with Ta Nehisi Coates is always, always, always the best conversation. Let me get in one more thank you to our incredible sponsors. The Joy beach show on tonight is being brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. As America approaches its 250th anniversary, we're having a bigger argument about what this country is and who it is for. Because the United States began as a rejection of monarchy and divine rule. The founders created a secular constitution with no religious tests and a government that's supposed to be accountable to the people. That framework helped make expanding freedom at least possible in a very flawed country. But today, we are seeing growing efforts to blur the line between church and state, in education, in public policy, and in the broader culture. And those shifts do not affect everyone equally. The Freedom from Religion foundation is working to protect the First Amendment because it protects everybody's freedom of conscience, including the right to believe differently or to not believe at all. If you want to support this very important work, go to FFRF US Joy or just text my first name, Joy to 511511. To join or learn more, go to FFRF Joy or text Joy to 511511 now, as we move forward toward America's 250th birthday, this is not just about celebrating the past. It's about deciding what kind of future we are building. Text JOY to 511-511 to learn more and join. Text Fees may apply. Okay, so I really enjoy talking to Ta Nehisi. I love talking to him. So Donald Trump and his ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, former governor of Arkansas, do not quite agree on which of our two countries owes its existence to the other.

[David K. Johnson]

My job to represent the importance of Israel to the United States, this is just another reminder that it is your

[Joy Reid]

heritage, without a doubt.

[David K. Johnson]

But Minister, it is also the heritage of the United States. Without Israel, without the Jewish foundation, there would not be an America we owe our very existence to.

[Joy Reid]

What happened, we wouldn't have if it

[Jason]

weren't for the United States of America with me, because Obama was the opposite, Israel would not exist right now. Israel would have been blown off the face of the earth 100%. And every smart person in Israel knows that. Okay, thank you very much, everybody.

[Joy Reid]

All right, Dementia Don. The answer is neither of them are correct. Israel literally was founded in 1948 and the United States after the 1776 revolution was founded essentially 1778. So it is an incredibly, monumentally stupid. Why is it, how is it even possible, Mike Huckabee, that the United States would not exist without Israel? That's just dumb. And Donald Trump. No, no. Israel would not have been blown off the face of the earth. By who? Iran does not have nuclear weapons. And the countries that do have nuclear weapons aren't going to blow Israel off the face of the earth. You're just being obedient to Bibi. This is why we are in a war. We shouldn't be in. Joining me now, and also this is also an issue in maga. A lot of them are going, yo, I didn't know that we were in this thing for Israel. Joining me now for our third Wednesdays, our every third Wednesday segment on countering white Christian nationalism is our friend, Robbie Jones, award winning author of the New York Times bestselling the Hidden Roots of White Supremacy and the Path to a Shared American Future, White Too Long and the End of White Christian America. The President and founder of the public religion Research Institute prri.org and also my friend. Hi, Robbie.

[Robbie Jones]

Hi, Joy.

[Joy Reid]

So how weird is it, right? Mike Huckabee thinks that the United States would not exist without Israel.

[Robbie Jones]

Yeah, I was trying to work out that timeline in my head as you were, as you were talking. Yeah, No, I mean, it's hard to even know where to start with, with that sort of a timeline.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, yeah. But Trump's timeline, I think gets to a little bit about the things that you write about is that Christian nationalists, and I'll take the white out of it, just Christian nationalists are fundamentalist Christians in general believe that you have to basically ally with Israel and effectively constantly support them or the country will be destroyed.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Right.

[Joy Reid]

Like that is part of the belief system.

[Robbie Jones]

No, that's right.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Yeah.

[Robbie Jones]

Yeah. I mean, particularly among the kind of old school Christian. Right. That Mike Huckabee is a part of too. But there is this, this. Yeah, there's this theology and I, you know, you and I have talked about this before, but it is really important to remember that I think sometimes people think, oh, well, you know, that sounds like a story that should resonate really well in Israel. But if you really understand the theology, this does not end well for Jewish people. This story. It is, it is very much a Christian narrative. It is not a Judeo Christian narrative. It is a Christian narrative and it's an evangelical Christian narrative. And at the end of the day, the alliance with Israel is a very instrumental and short term one. It's about fulfilling some biblical prophecy so that Jesus can come back to earth again. I mean, and then every knee will bow to Jesus and all the knees who do not bow, including Jewish ones. Right. Will not be saved. So that's the narrative. So there's this kind of short term confluence of interest, but it diverges pretty quickly. You know, once you kind of get this kind of very short, short run alliance achievements, the wheels fall off very, very quickly.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, yeah.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

No, no.

[Joy Reid]

No one in Israel survives. Okay, let's just, let's just give you the. To get to the point. No one in Israel survives this unless they become Christian.

[Robbie Jones]

Christian dominion story at the end of the day.

[Joy Reid]

Exactly. So let's talk about some of this new data. You guys have some new data out because we are heading into the America 250. Donald Trump has tried to have a big concert that kind of flamed out because no a list stars would be there. He did the UFC fight for his birthday. He's doing all the things to celebrate America 250. But as we approach the 250th birthday of the country, I pulled a few of these slides. The first one is about national pride and the belief that God has granted America a special role in human history. Talk a little bit about that because it doesn't seem like there's a lot of pride in America's democracy or the economy.

[Robbie Jones]

No, that's right. I mean, we asked about a number of, you know, half a dozen things about whether Americans had, you know, pride in a whole range of things. And across all of them you've got here economic achievements, special role in history, the way American democracy is working in the world today. And essentially there was not any of them that the country as a whole said they had a great amount of pride of them. At best, we were getting like half the country saying this and then these very big breaks, as you can see in these talk, you know, kind of talking points here between Republicans who were. Yes, yes, yes. You know, we should have Pride in our 250 years history, proud of being an American, but they really are out on an island by themselves on this Front, you know, that you have. And this is really the story of where we are as a country now. And you have Republicans increasingly pulling in very extreme ways away from the center of the country, and independents and Democrats more closely aligned on this front and deeply disturbed, you know, by what they're seeing in the country today. And I think that really is the, you know, if we're thinking about a big picture thing, it really is the sense of. It's not just polarization. It's not just that we're divided. We shouldn't really be thinking in that lazy way. It really is that we have one political party that's been taken over by the MAGA movement, is moving further and further away from the rest of America. Like, that's the story of where we are at America's 250th anniversary.

[Joy Reid]

You know, we're talking with TA Nehisi Coates about, you know, apartheid. It almost feels like polling in the United States would be like polling in South Africa during apartheid, where white South Africans would be on a completely different island, solo, feeling one way about the country, and everyone else, colored and black, would feel completely differently because they were the only ones enjoying the spoils. But in this case, they're not even enjoying the spoils. The economy is terrible. There's no one enjoying the spoils. It's like, it's crazy to me that they're still feeling this way. But we'll go to the next slide because this is kind of, to me, kind of a very fundamental question when it comes to the way people feel about it and what attracts immigrants here is this idea of the American dream. The fact that the American dream has really declined among most people, among Latinos, among AAPI people and. And among women and young Americans. Say more about that.

[Robbie Jones]

Well, that's right. You know, so, and this is remarkable because, you know, we. We asked about this just a couple of years ago before, like, Trump came onto the scene, you know, and we saw, you know, numbers that were 5 points higher among the public, 10 points higher among some of these subgroups. So this. It's. This drop really has taken place over the last couple of years here. And, you know, and this is also kind of a fundamental, you know, sense of how the country is doing. You know, this. This basic idea, right, that if you work hard, you'll get ahead. It's about optimism. It's about the kind of promise of, you know, an economy that works, you know, for. For people like that, they can see a life and a road ahead of themselves. That Makes sense that they can kind of plan around. And this kind of disillusionment again. Yeah. Among younger Americans, among women, aapi, Latino groups. And I would say this, that typically in public opinion polls, we ask questions about this. It has been historically true that Latino Americans have typically been very optimistic. And even Latino Americans who, by many other measures, education levels are economic outright, income levels are still, like, lower on the socioeconomic spectrum, they were still fairly optimistic. And we're really seeing that dampening now. You know, maybe in some pretty obvious. Obvious. For some pretty obvious reasons, we're seeing that dampening among Latinos. That's what really stood out about this. This piece to me.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. I mean, it's depressing to think that, you know, the thing that is the kind, the kind of selling point of America is kind of going away as a true selling point. Let's talk about somebody that is actually gaining a lot of support, and that would be the Pope. Pope Leo is very popular dealer. Talk about that.

[Robbie Jones]

Well, in, in the, in the report, I should say. All of these results are on the PRRI websites. Prri.org it's right there on the homepage. We actually have one of my favorite charts in the report is a butterfly chart where we have favorability of Donald Trump on one side and favorability of Pope Leo on the other. We just break it down, like, all the way down, you know, and I mean, really, there's only a couple of groups and it's, it's essentially Republicans and white evangelicals where Trump outscores Pope Leo, but really almost across the board on all the other demographic things. So, you know, I was thinking about this UFC fight motif, and, you know, if you kind of think about a metaphor and you were going to pit Pope Leo and. And Donald Trump together on a favorability contest, it'd be over with in one round. You know, there's really no contest here. And so, you know, he has, he and Vance have very, you know, very particularly picked fights with. With Pope Leo, you know, and on his turf, even not even on politics, even Vance scolding him about he should be more careful, even on theology, which I, you know, for a Catholic convert to say that to the Pope, the sitting Pope, is quite something in terms of hubris. But it just goes to show that, like, you know, really across the board, with very, very few exceptions. I mean, President Trump's favorability rating, you know, in this new poll, again, is 34% in the country. Yeah. And. And this is also notable, too, that just popped up here, that his, his his drop, you know, his base is with him. But if you look here, what's notable is that independence, true independents, ones that neither lean toward Democrats or Republicans here, 21 point drop just since 2024. And probably even more notable than that, the independents who lean Republican, and you know what the political science literature is suggests is that those people almost always vote for the party. They'll say they're independents, but if they lean Republican, they are a pretty sure Republican vote. His favorability now is underwater with that group and it's down 17 points just over the last two years.

[Joy Reid]

Did you, did you catch JD Vance on the View yesterday? Did you catch it?

[Robbie Jones]

I did not, alas.

[Dr. Freda Fisher]

Yes.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, there was this attempt, I think by him to try to mitigate Donald Trump's disfavorability that things that are in that chart by trying to effectively argue that we just missed it, that somehow we have misconstrued everything Donald Trump has said. When he's insulted people, called people piggy, called people stupid, when he's attacked the Obamas, it's all just us getting it wrong. We just don't see it. We're just missing it. Even on immigration, he tried to claim that they have effectively a normal immigration policy. And he says to Whoopiwi, you may disagree with the way we're implementing it, but we're just implementing the law. And he tried to argue with Whoopi Goldberg and Sunny Hostin, who really laid him out, that no, black history hasn't disappeared. We celebrate black history. It was such a strange thing to watch him attempt to gaslight the View.

[Robbie Jones]

Well, it'll be interesting to see what happens on Juneteenth. I mean, last year, Trump ignored it. He did not issue a proclamation last Juneteenth and in fact complained on social media, on Truth Social, that it would cost the country millions and millions of dollars in lost productivity. Right. That was mostly what he said about Juneteenth last year. And let's not forget, if we're coming to immigration and part of the whole, particularly refugee process, right, is that there could not be a clearer loud. It's not a dog whistle, it's a loud speaker about where the, you know, that we have a very abnormal and just straight up white supremacist immigration policy who are the only people that our refugee system is letting in to the country these days, like white Africaners who are claiming white genocide is happening. And Trump is like making these claims along with Elon Musk, you know, that's who we are letting in the country, not people from Afghanistan that help U.S. troops, you know, overseas. Not all kinds of other people have legitimate claims to asylum. But they shut all that down, put white Africaners at the front of the line. I mean, you can't get more plain than that.

[Joy Reid]

In the time that you've been, that you've had that the Public Origin Research Institute has existed, have you seen this country in a more kind of openly white supremacist posture?

[Robbie Jones]

No. I mean, I just mentioned dog whistle. I mean, we used to talk about that, you know, in the wake of the civil rights movement that this kind of went underground a little bit and we had a whole cottage industry of Paul Manafort and other people kind of coming up with, you know, you would say busing, you know, instead of using the N word, you would. All those kind of coded language. No, and I mean, I, you know, I was born in 68, certainly in my adult lifetime. I've never seen anything like what we're seeing now just in terms of just overt white supremacist motivations just out there on the surface. Like I said, this Africana thing, the purging of people of color just willy nilly from, you know, government, from the Department of Defense, from across the government. You know, it's a very, very clear pattern that we're, that we're witnessing here. And it's not even really even a matter of interpretation, interpretation anymore. It's really a matter of facts just right in front of us on the ground.

[Joy Reid]

And the fact is that if you go all the way back to the very beginning, it has always been rooted in, in, in a specific white Christianity which is, you know, what, you know what I, in all of your books that has been a very clear message, right? That it's been very clear that it's a racialization of religion and that the, the white supremacy part is almost always tied to the Christian part. These aren't like white supremacist atheists, you know, non religious people.

[Robbie Jones]

And, you know, and the role that Christianity has played, you know, and I do this a little bit more, you know, in my new book Backslide, that's coming out and in the fall and talk about this more in depth, that what, what Christianity has really done, it really has provided the moral cover for this white supremacist agenda. I mean, let's not forget that, you know, if we're thinking about the big broad history of America. I'm actually in Mississippi this week visiting my folks where I grew up, you know, and it's always a reminder that man, this history is not that long. I mean, most political scientists, and if you're looking at the country, don't really think of the US having a true democracy until 1965. Right. Because what we had was kind of a white Christian Republican or democracy for white Christian people. And it was defended that way. And I'm here in Mississippi, and one of the big words, you know, that got used when Reconstruction, the first civil rights efforts after the Civil War, were overthrown. White Christians took a word from their theology to describe their victory in doing away with the first efforts of civil rights for African Americans, and they called it redemption.

[Joy Reid]

It is. It is. It is stunning to think of the misuse of language and the misuse of religion. Talk to me about this new piece that. If you've written a new piece on this, I believe you've written a new piece on this. That might be one up on my substack. You talk about what you're writing these days and what we should be thinking about.

[Robbie Jones]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's. That's a clue to it. And I think more and more, you know, the analysis is right in front of us. We will obviously keep doing the analysis and keep kind of pointing out the contradictions, but in some ways, I think it's maybe helpful that we are having this debate about who are we as a country? Who do we want to be as a country? And I will say that some of the data that we have in this new poll is showing the distress that the country is feeling over the direction the country is going. But it's also showing, I go back to Lincoln's first inaugural address, you know, where he made this reference to the better angels of our nature, and he kind of tied that to our democratic aspirations. And this was. He gave this on the eve of the Civil War. And I think we're in many cases at that point, like, you know, are we going to go back? Are we going to follow the better angels of our nature? Are we going to finally try to realize this imperfect, you know, attempt at having a full pluralistic democracy? And what the polls are telling us that is that we are not living in a 50, 50 country. I mean, I think this is really helpful. We are living in a country that's about a third of the country that wants to take us back to this vision of this white Christian nationalist country where white Christians are kind of citizens of the first order and everybody else is somewhere further down the pyramid. But that's not the vision of 2/3 of the country. It just is the case that our politics have kind of warped it here. But if you ask, like, do we want, we asked Americans, like, you know, do you want to live in a country that's like an explicitly Christian country? Do you want to live in a religiously pluralistic country? Two thirds of the country says we want to live in a pluralistic country. You know, if you ask people about whether, even, like, a hard question, like, do you worry that Donald Trump's a dangerous dictator? Right. He's going to destroy American democracy. We now have six in 10Americans. They say they are concerned. And it's a majority of independents, it's a super majority of Democrats. It's most religious people in the country who share this fear. And so I think that the real key is, and I think this is what we got to be thinking about, is we've got to get people to the polls and vote, because that is where the country is, Right? If we can get that expressed at the polls in the upcoming midterms, we can, in fact, reclaim these, the better angels of our nature. We can reclaim these ideals in the country that we're going to be talking a lot about over the next few weeks. We can do it because the numbers are actually there. But it does mean everybody's got to show up and make their voice be heard.

[Joy Reid]

Amen to that. Robert P. Jones, aka Robbie Jones, @prri.org, go on. You can peruse through the data at your leisure, which I love to do. It's always so much fun. If you love, if you're a data geek like me, it's something you ought to do. Robby, thank you very much. I appreciate you, man.

[Robbie Jones]

All right.

[Joy Reid]

Thanks for the rest of the evening. Thank you. It's real because, again, the largest chunk of voters in America are the couch people. The people who do not vote at all always outnumber either of the groups that vote Republican or vote Democratic. And as folks in the chat said, it's not even a majority of Christians that believe this stuff. It's a small claque of white Christians, a small percentage of them, and they just run everything because they're the most vocal and they actually vote. So we just need to outnumber them. We don't have to change their minds. You don't have to convert them. We don't have to even talk to them, just outvote them. All right, before we get out of here, let's do our, our moment of joy. So among the Knicks players, because, of course, we got to, we got to keep talking Knicks until after that, after that parade tomorrow. Among the Knicks players, one has stood out not just for his skill as a small forward and shooting guard, but also for the sheer adorableness of his family. One day before the Knicks first ever New York ticker tape parade. Ladies and gentlemen, our moment of joy is Josh Hart and his wife, Shannon Hart, who's also was his high school sweetheart. So cute. And their twin adorable sons, Hendrix and Hayes, who love to steal the show.

[David K. Johnson]

Roll them. I've seen their relationship. I've seen the work that they both put in to get to this point. I hope you have that mic off. That's a smile.

[Joy Reid]

And Hendrix and Hayes and also their parents are our moment of joy. Congrats once again to the Knicks and we will. You don't forget, you guys can watch coverage of the New York Knicks epic ticker tape parade Tomorrow starting at 10am right here on the derby.

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

Getting back to the basics, grassroots level

[Jason]

Let me dig a little deeper with the shovel Plenty can't tell the forest

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

from the trees that I'm hard to detect Like a black hole in the

[Jason]

dark Injustice anywhere it's a threat to justice everywhere Let me make this clear I got a bone to pick and

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

I'll never fear the threat of poverty

[Jason]

they don't want to talk about it

[Ta-Nehisi Coates]

they rap the party so I'm a real talk about it for sure.