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Indigenous Peoples Day: Fight Fascism Everywhere | The Joy Reid Show LIVE! Oct 13, 2025
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- [00:20]
Joy Reid
A perfect way to start this Monday. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Joy Reid Show. Big up to everybody listening and watching on YouTube, on Substack on Spotify. Hey everybody that's in the chats. We see you on the YouTube chat. Hello everybody. The substack chat as well. Especially big ups to our team TJRS members. You guys are super duper special. I want to wish everybody a happy indigenous People's day. It is a fitting time to recall that the creation of that other holiday, the official holiday, came about because of this country's super sketchy history when it comes to indigenous people and also race. Christopher Columbus, who came from Genoa, Spain, set out during what's called the age of Discovery, sparked by the Catholic Church in Europe, whose 15th century popes issued papal bull after papal bull, meeting announcements, carving up the world known and unknown between the Catholic empires of Spain, which is the country that actually sent Christopher Columbus abroad and paid for it, and Portugal and France. The church basically decreed that explorers from these European empires should set out into the world, sail off into the world, and any land that they encountered belong to them, so long as they return sufficient gold to the homelands to gild the palatial European churches and line the pockets of the ecclesiastical leaders. And any people, any humans that these brave explorers encountered on their adventures should first be converted to Christianity, if possible. But if not, they could legitimately be exterminated or enslaved. Let me show you how that played out on the American continent, which used to be home to literally hundreds and hundreds of individual indigenous nations. They started out having the whole country, but it wasn't long before they had none of the country. We're going to show you that little map right there. It is a moving map which shows the complete devastation and loss of the Americas by indigenous people. And that European colonizer ethic extended into the 19th and the 20th centuries, impacting really everything, everything that we're going to talk about tonight from the mass slaughter and displacement and confinement on reservations of the vast majority of indigenous Americans, not just here, but also in Canada, and the enslavement of millions of Africans in the Americas and the Caribbean, including the breeding of black enslaved people in America's only in this country invention of chattel slavery, as well as the quest of European Jews during the 19th and the late 19th and early 20th centuries to conquer and settle the former British colonial mandate of power, Palestine. And we're going to show you a 1947 map here that was published in National Geographic that shows what that used to look like. That eventually resulted after nearly a decade of literal terrorism against the British by the Irgun and Stern Gang, Jewish terrorist groups that we've talked about on this show starting in the 1920s and conflicts with indigenous Arabs throughout that region. It all resulted eventually in the birth of Israel as a Western backed nation state in 1948, which resulted in even more conflict and displacement, a regional war in 1967 and the displacement of more than 750,000 Palestinians from the west bank and what became Israel to the formerly Egyptian controlled Gaza Strip decades later. The continual unrest and the battles over Israeli settlements eventually led Israel to pull their settlers out of Gaza and the Hamas takeover of this trip after the US demanded elections and in 2005 followed by the total blockade of Gaza starting a year later. Then came multiple uprisings leading to the October 7, 2023 attacks by Hamas and the world's first live broadcast genocide against mainly Palestinian civilians and children, which we all watched in real time thanks to cell phones and social media. Bottom line, indigenous people have had a rough go of it from South Africa and the African continent to Central and South America to India and Pakistan and the Middle east as European colonialism and Western imperialism have literally shifted the world and its history. So Indigenous Peoples Day has a lot of meaning on today, but the creation of like the actual Columbus Day holiday has its own grim story. And it starts, as so many things do in America, with a lynching, in fact a mass lynching of 11 Italian Americans in New Orleans in 1891. It was one of the largest lynchings in US history and it took place during a period of time of vehement anti immigrant and anti Italian specific sentiment in the us. You should know that Italian immigrants had flowed into the south to replace black plantation labor after the Great Migration and after the Civil War and then the Great Migration. And they were considered lower unwanted whites. The lynching of Italian of these 11 Italian Americans came a year after the murder of New Orleans police chief. His name was David Hennessy. That murder was blamed on the city's Italian population, who again were vilified as black adjacent criminals. In the South, 19 men were to be tried for the murder of the police chief, but due to the weak evidence against them, six of them were acquitted while three others were granted mistrials. But before the rest of the accused could be tried, a mob of white men stormed the city's prison and shot 11 of those Italians dead. Some of them were not even among the accused. According to the Zen Educational Project article. The Zen Educational Project, the victims included fruit, peddlers Antonio Bagnetto, Antonio Marchese and Antonio Scafati, stevedores James Caruso and Rocco Garachi, cobbler Pietro Monasterio, Tin Smith, Loretto Comitas, street vendor Emmanuel Polizi, fruit importer Joseph P. Macheca, Ward politician Frank Romero and and rice plantation laborer Charles Traina. Those were the men who were lynched. Now, this mass lynching sparked a diplomatic uproar between the US and Italy and to appease the Italian government, which was raising holy hell about this lynching. Republican President Benjamin Harrison. He's the guy who signed the annexation treaty to steal Hawaii after white settlers staged a coup to overthrow the Hawaiian queen. That guy. He proclaimed the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas, technically the Caribbean, as a national holiday in 1892, intending for it to be a one time celebration. But Italian Americans continue to celebrate it annually until it became an official federal holiday in 1937 under FDR, six years after the Star Spangled Banner became the national anthem. That happened in 1931. So basically, Columbus Day was a holiday to appease Italy over the lynching of Italians in the former slave south, which is now commemorated by people who care about indigenous rights as a day commemorating the theft of the American continent by European settlers from the indigenous who tried to enslave the indigenous but instead killed most of them off with guns or germs. And enslaved African. Enslaved stolen Africans instead. Now, of course, that is not the narrative that the right wants you to hear. So here's how the folks at Prageru would prefer that we think about this day. Prageru, take it away. Slavery is as old as time and.
- [07:36]
Karen Finney
Has taken place in every corner of.
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Trita Parsi
The world, even amongst the people I just left. Being taken as a slave is better.
- [07:44]
Joy Reid
Than being killed, no? Before you judge, you must ask yourself.
- [07:48]
Trita Parsi
What did the culture and society of the time treat as.
- [07:51]
Joy Reid
No, no big deal, huh? Yeah, okay, but the disruptions in the narrative by people like Nicole Hannah Jones and her 1619 Project and Robert Jones with his White Too Long, both widely banned under Trump fascism, plus the multiple times bestseller Black AF History by Michael Harriot of Contraband Camp, those narrative disruptions and the ones that we're seeing on social media by creators like Harrison Hayes and Khalil Green and Conscious Lee and Elizabeth Booker, Houston. All of those, and so many more, are short circuiting the attempts by white nationalists and white Christian nationalists to force us into forgetting. And joining me now to discuss Indigenous Peoples Day, Indigenous Peoples Day is Julian Brave, noisecat writer Oscar Nominated filmmaker, champion powwow dancer, which I loved about his bio and student of Salish art and history. His first book, We Survived the Night, will be published by Alfred Knoff and Penguin Random house Canada on Oct. 14, as well as by profile books in the United Kingdom and Commonwealth on October16, with translations forthcoming from Albin Michelle in France, Vertag in Germany and Iper Berea in Italy. Thank you so much for being here. It is so great to meet you, Julian. I hope he's okay and I think he might be frozen by the WI fi. Oh, okay. Let's take him back backstage. Julian is frozen. We're going to hopefully get his WI fi to work again and it is on his side, not our side. Don't say anything in the chat that is not us. We're going to figure out what's happening with his WI fi. It might have frozen up. There are storms that are happening all across the Eastern seaboard. I will note that there is a nor' Easter that is taking place. So hopefully that is the problem. Should we go back, Jason, and try him again, see if we can get him to be unfrozen? I think he's going to call back and he just signed off. Okay, he's going to sign off and sign back in. But I think it is important to give you all that history. And the reason that I wanted to do all of that is that there is this connection between the lies of Columbus Day and the lies about Indigenous Peoples Day. And now, aha. We have Julian Brave Noisecat on the screen, unfrozen. Thank you so much for being here.
- [09:50]
Julian Brave Noisecat
Hey, Joy, can you hear me now?
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Joy Reid
I can hear you now. Thank you so much. Appreciate you. So your book, you tell a lot of painful history. And I was watching another previous interview that you did with Democracy now where you talked about your father's story and these really horrific, I guess they called them, they sort of considered them to be boarding schools, but it seems to be a. Not the right word for them. But talk about your father's experience.
- [10:21]
Julian Brave Noisecat
So In August of 1959, my father was born at St. Joseph's Mission, an Indian residential school near Williams Lake, British Columbia, Canada, and found just a few minutes later, actually in the trash incinerator of the school by the school's night watchman. It's a story that my family has never really talked about until I. Until I set out to write We Survived the Night and to make my documentary Sugarcane with Emily Cassie. And it's a really painful sort of story about what was happening to the babies born at schools like St. Joseph's Mission. And the way that the history of colonization that you introduced very elegantly at the beginning of the show continues to shape Native lives and has been, in certain ways, internalized by us.
- [11:06]
Joy Reid
Can you talk about how Indigenous Americans kind of process being a part of this country? I can tell you, whenever I sort of am in one of the more beautiful landscapes out west, I grew up in Colorado. You go out to the mountains, you go to these places. I am constantly feeling uncomfortable with how stolen the land is. You know what I mean? I think about it as just a stolen place. And I just wonder, for you, as an Indigenous person, how do you all process being in America?
- [11:36]
Julian Brave Noisecat
I mean, I think that it's a really contradictory position to inhabit. Of course, this is the only continent that we've ever known as our homeland, and yet it is also a place that has been wholly taken from us. Every single inch of North America is evidence of colonization and the theft of our land and our way of life. So, you know, I think that it also can be a little bit maddening to live in a. In a country that. Where that is evidenced all over the place by, you know, the place names, by, you know, the literal inhabitants of the country not being us, and to simultaneously have it never be seen or recognized by broader society by, you know, the way that this country commemorates its past.
- [12:21]
Joy Reid
Yeah, and Canada, too. I mean, I would say both. And we're showing a picture of North America, and you think about how many tribal nations existed, existed on their own, didn't need any help from Europe to have, you know, a culture and a civilization of their own. Didn't need them, didn't want them, didn't ask for them to come here. And you had this combination of not just colonization, but genocide. I mean, the fact that something like 90% of the original inhabitants of this land are literally gone because they were killed off either by the germs and diseases brought from Europe or by being wiped out by gunfare, by, you know, by guns. And yet the narrative that you get from some Canadians and from a lot of Americans is that this was like a triumphant conquest of a land. And they never talk about the people. Right. That has to be really hard to sort of exist in that and hear people speak about what they did with all of this sort of vainglory.
- [13:15]
Julian Brave Noisecat
That's why I think it's so important for Indigenous peoples to be reclaiming our own narratives and to be looking at the way that our own people sometimes narrated the same part of our history. So, for example, you know, today we're in Indigenous Peoples Day slash Columbus Day, depending on which side of the culture war you are a participant in. In Canada, you know, my people narrated the arrival of the first white man into our territory, this guy named Simon Fraser, who was a fur trader who had a really bright idea, and I mean that in the most sarcastic way, of descending our roaring salmon river at the beginning, at the end of spring, right when it was like, full of all the spring mel. It's already a deadly river any time of the year. But to do it at that time of the year was especially foolish thing. And interestingly, our people in our oral history remember Simon Fraser, this foolish river pirate who did this insane descent of the river when we told him he shouldn't probably do it as the return of one of our trickster sort of supernatural ancestors, this guy Coyote, who was really essential in the creation of the world, but who was also often up to no good and whose return was supposed to mark the beginning of the end of the world for us. And in a sense, Simon Fraser was coyote like that. You know, his arrival did mark the end of the indigenous world, in a sense, but it was also marked by, you know, not sort of notions of discovery and triumph so much as notions of, like, pure foolishness and, you know, survival by chance.
- [14:49]
Joy Reid
Yeah. And I. The thing, the two pieces I would love for you to just talk a little bit more about, because on the one hand, you have people who've come to this beautiful landscape and the current modern iteration, at least of the ones in charge, don't care about the land. They don't care if they despoil it. They will drill it until it's dead. They don't care about preserving it. They just want to benefit and profit from taking what's underneath. Right. So there's not. And then there's actually almost like putting down those who do care about the land and saying that that is some primitive, silly thing and that they need to just log and drill, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then the other piece of wanting indigenous people to assimilate, and you did talk a lot about that in your interview with Democracy now, which I thought was really interesting, is this demand that indigenous people assimilate with white culture and give up any sort of sense of not ownership, but a sense of fidelity to the land. Can you talk about that a little bit?
- [15:39]
Julian Brave Noisecat
Well, one of the main justifications for colonization was this idea that native people were not using the land or not putting it into productive capitalist use, which, you know, was a very narrow reading of way that. Ways that people can relate to and use and take care of land. You know, I think it's worth pointing out that indigenous peoples stewarded all different corners of this continent. Fish populations, forests, game, you know, you name it. And that for thousands of years that created a sustainable relationship between people and planet. When the first Europeans set foot in our parts of the continent, they were often shocked by the incredible wealth of the land. Just the amount of fish, the amount of game, you know, the, the incredible forests that we had maintained. And those things, you know, they misread as being a sort of virgin landscape. But the truth of the matter is, and, and many historians will also tell you this, that the land was that way because indigenous peoples had fostered governance systems and ways of relating to our environment that had made the land into this incredibly beautiful, sustaining thing for our way of life. And it's worth pointing out that within a few hundred years, you know, in some corners of the continent, only a couple hundred years, that the land has not been in our care, it has fallen into a state of, you know, near apocalypse.
- [17:03]
Joy Reid
It has, unfortunately. Let's talk a little bit about Canada. Seems a bit more mature when it comes to thinking, to thinking about its history than the United States. Am I wrong about that?
- [17:15]
Julian Brave Noisecat
To say sorry, that's the Canadian way. You know, in the documentary that I co directed alongside Emily Cassie, there's a political diptych in sort of the key moment of the documentary wherein we travel to the Vatican for the papal apology to the survivors of Indian residential schools. But before the Pope could get to saying sorry, the then Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had to say sorry first because that's like sort of the liberal Canadian way. So he traveled to Williams Lake to say sorry. I think it's always worth asking if any of these institutions or political leaders really mean it when they say things like that. And what would it mean for them to mean it? You know, for example, what would it mean for our society to put the same amount of resources into building up Native people, native culture, native languages as they put into tearing them down? You know, there was a continent wide effort to do that, and what would it mean if there was a continent wide effort to do the exact opposite? I think that that's a really radical question that never really gets asked. And you know, I think that there are some certain differences between the United States and Canada. There's definitely more visibility for Native people and therefore Canadians feel a bit more sorry. But you know, at the end of the day, our people still fall to the bottom of every measurement of statistical misery in both countries.
- [18:33]
Joy Reid
Yeah. Unfortunately, colonization really has only one outcome for indigenous people, and it ain't good. I hope that everyone will take the opportunity to read your book. I'm excited about it. It's called We Survived the Night. It actually, I think it comes out tomorrow. Tomorrow might be your book pub day. So excited to have you on the day before your book pub day. Julian Brave, NoiseCat, thank you very much for being here. It's great to be here.
- [18:56]
Julian Brave Noisecat
Thank you so much for having me, Joy. It was a pleasure to be on your show.
- [18:58]
Joy Reid
Thank you so much. Well, there you are. Julian Brave NoiseCat. Please buy his book. We're gonna put a link to the book in the description of this show and hopefully you guys will take advantage of that. Let's pay some bills if we could. The Joy Reid show tonight is brought to you by MSI Reproductive Choices. During the recent UN General Assembly, a huge billboard appeared right near the entrance to the un. It was a big photo of birth control pills. And it said, and I quote, this choice is out of reach for millions of women all over the world. The board was from MSI Reproductive Choices. It is a nonprofit that delivers contraception to women in 36 countries. The numbers are really terrifying. 257 million women worldwide cannot access modern, safe contraception. Birth control pills have been on the market since the 1960s, and some women still can't get contraception. That is just wrong. The US government had committed $14 million in funding to MSI for contraceptives, but that was cut off in January. So MSI is asking for your help. So please give by going to MSI United States.org that is M as in modern, S as in safe, I as in informed. That is MSI United states dot org. You can also text my last name, Reid. That's r e I d to 511-511. $39 gives six women a year of contraception. One year. 94% of your gift goes to charitable activity. So please help by texting Reed my last name to 511511 MSI United States.org and text fees may apply. Sad to say, some of those women who cannot get access to birth control and contraception right here in the United States. All right, let's get back to the show. Back In November of 2017, Ekal Yanka, then a professor at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University, wrote a New York Times op ed titled Can My Children Be Friends with White People? Which raised significant and serious questions about black safety and survival in a country where we can't always count on members of the majority to stand up for us. I want to play you part one of that 2017 interview on Fox's Then.
- [21:20]
Tucker Carlson
Good evening and welcome to Tucker Carlson tonight. We want to tell you about an op ed that ran in the New York Times over the weekend. You might not have seen the writer, who's a law professor in New York called Echo Ionka, asked a simple question, can my children be friends with white people? He really asked it and he wasn't optimistic. Quote, I will teach my boys the lesson of generations old, he wrote. I will teach them to be cautious. I will teach them suspicion. I will teach them distrust. I will teach my boys to have profound doubts that friendship with white people is possible. Those doubts mirrored the writer's own. As he put it, history has provided little reason for people of color to trust white people. That piece was one of the most popular on the New York Times website even today. It was hardly unusual, though. Go to any liberal website, Salon, Slate, Vox, huffpo, and you'll find similar pieces arguing that an entire racial group is untrustworthy and dangerous. This is a big change for the left. For most of the 20th century, liberals, and it was noble, argued that it was immoral to reward or punish people based on their skin color. Individuals ought to be judged solely by the choices they make. Anything less is bigotry. Liberals don't say that anymore. What happened? Echo Ianca is the author of that New York Times piece. He's a professor at Shiva University's Benjamin Cardozo School of Law, and he joins us tonight. Professor, thanks for coming on.
- [22:43]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Thanks for having me.
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Tucker Carlson
So what struck me about this piece? A couple of different things, but the first thing was the generalizations about a racial group based on their race. And I grew up probably not so much older than you in a world where overt expressions of that were not acceptable. You weren't allowed to generalize on the basis of race because the assumption was each person is an individual and you judge each person by the choices he or she makes. I don't understand when it became okay to generalize about racial groups.
- [23:17]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Well, I mean, it's a, to me, a strange way to put the question. I mean, while it's the case of that we all hope that we can be judged for who we are. I think while some people have the luxury to be raised only being told to look at individual people, it should Be no surprise to you that black people, in particular black men, have been taught forever that they have to be careful how they behave around white people, that the way they behave will be interpreted differently, that when they misbehave, it'll be punished differently, that if they laugh too loud, if they walk into a nice store. So, with all due respect, Tucker, what was true for you has never been true for lots of people.
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Joy Reid
Exactly. And then, of course, the conversation went to the right's favorite meme, black on black crime.
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Tucker Carlson
Well, I mean, I guess. I mean, there are a lot of ways to respond to that one on a factual basis. In truth, in a lot of places in this country, the main threat that African Americans face is not from white people, as you perfectly well know. But beyond that, the idea that you could understand a person's motive merely by knowing his race dehumanizes that person. It's the definition of racism. And you're engaging in it in the New York Times, and nobody says anything about it. And I just felt it was worth pointing that out and asking you if you feel it's okay to generalize about people you've never met, about whom you know nothing beyond what they look like and say, I know who you are and what you believe.
- [24:44]
Professor Ekal Yanka
So I first want to respond to the. The first comment I think is ought not be let lie. While it's true that of course people of color face threats from other people of color, it's also true that white people face the overwhelming threat from white people. That is, people face threats from who they live. Besides, so I.
- [24:59]
Tucker Carlson
That's right, Exactly.
- [25:01]
Professor Ekal Yanka
But I think it's fair to point out that we oughtn't be distasteful and say things like, well, the great threat. It does feed a certain uglier narrative that we don't want. But to your core point.
- [25:12]
Tucker Carlson
Wait, hold on. Why does the truth ever feed a quote, ugly narrative? The truth is worth telling for its own sake because it's true.
- [25:18]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You're welcome to tell the truth, but it is deeply suspicious that people are so quick to say things like, the main threat facing African Americans is other African Americans. But you never hear anybody say, the main threat facing white people is white people. Right. So there is no phrase white on white.
- [25:34]
Tucker Carlson
I don't know. I mean, people say that. I mean, I guess the point is, Tucker, I think we should face a threat from an entire racial group. You face a threat from individuals who've made individual choices.
- [25:43]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Well, we should turn to that. But just in closing, I should say we should Be honest and not pretend that there is a phrase like white on white violence. Right. That phrase doesn't exist for a very particular.
- [25:51]
Tucker Carlson
Well, we can invent it here.
- [25:52]
Joy Reid
No, we can just invent it here. Okay, fine. Why don't white violence. We invented it here. That was 2017. Tucker, who, by the way, throughout the course of this interview not only called Professor Yanko a racist, but also called him unhelpful.
- [26:08]
Tucker Carlson
But I guess the point I'm making is that you should never generalize about people on the basis of their skin color because it reduces them to the sum total of their skin color. And again, that's the definition of racism. And you're engaging in it in this piece, and I just. I don't think it's helpful. I think it's wrong.
- [26:27]
Joy Reid
And this is the point in the show where I pause to play some unhelpful Tucker receipts.
- [26:34]
Tucker Carlson
White supremacy. That's the problem. This is a hoax. There's no evidence that white supremacists were responsible for what happened on January 6th. That's a lie. We have a moral obligation to admit the world's poor, they tell us, even if it makes our own country poorer and dirtier. And more divided. Demographics. Demographic, demographics, demographics, demographics. Remember, the Great Replacement Theory was a conspiracy theory. It sounds more like a statistical fact. Ilhan Omar is living proof that the way we practice immigration has become dangerous to this country. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, herself a symbol of America's failed immigration system. Can a single human being actually be as loathsome as Ilhan Omar is? It's hard to believe dating Montel Williams, you know, is something that's within her range of experience. Is she good at it? We can't say she's. But she's done it just for masochistic reasons. Can you do it one more time? So it might be time for Joe Biden to let us know what Kentaji Brown Jackson's LSAT score was.
- [27:32]
Joy Reid
What?
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Tucker Carlson
How did you do in the LSATs? They think that you should be elevated in America based on what you do, on the choices you make, not in how you were born, not in your DNA, because that's Rwanda. Rwanda, Rwanda, Rwanda, Rwanda. We're still not precisely sure how George Floyd died. Very few unarmed black men are killed by white cops these days. Where's George Floyd when you need him? The only job training program this administration has gotten behind in two and a half years is getting black people to sell more weed in the cities. You never see politicians transition to, say, Malcolm X. Why is that? Maybe because Malcolm X didn't talk like a sharecropper. Xenophobia, it seems almost antique. This show, more than any other show on television, has taken an aggressive position in favor of colorblind equality and against racism.
- [28:26]
Joy Reid
Yeah, yeah, unhelpful. Now, let me actually play Professor Iancke's actually much more eloquent response. He didn't laugh like a maniac.
- [28:36]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Well, so I just entirely deny that what I said was that. That you should generalize and dislike people because of their skin color. What I do think is true is that in a world in which things have gotten ever more dangerous for people of color, it is, in fact, the case that that undermines our ability to trust each other across racial bounds. And here's what's true. Or at least here's what I wrote. Not that white people are unavailable for friendship. But in this world, it is up to our white friends and allies to be sure to stand up for those who are under attack. If I want to prove that I'm the kind of person who can be your friend, that means that when something is actually threatening you, I actually have to be there for you.
- [29:16]
Joy Reid
And there you have it. Exactly. And I want to play one more clip, which really kind of feels like it resonates specifically in this awful moment, because, remember, this was the interview that was done during Trump 1.0. But I want to play this part which feels like it could have been played in Trump 2.0.
- [29:34]
Tucker Carlson
Okay, but again, you're making generalizations across racial groups. So you say, for example, I will have to discuss with my boys whether they can truly be friends with white people. History has provided little reason for people of color to trust white people. I have profound doubts that friendship with white people is possible. Again.
- [29:52]
Professor Ekal Yanka
That'S absolutely right.
- [29:53]
Tucker Carlson
If I were to write, you know, I was mugged as a pizza delivery, and I told my children that they should never trust anyone who looks like the people who mugged me. That would be. I would never do that. I think that would be immoral. But it would be the definition of racism, because I would be equating the people who mugged me with everyone else who looks like them.
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Professor Ekal Yanka
I think if that's the only part of the article you read, it might sound like that. But of course, the article has a much richer argument. And the argument I make is, look, in a country where it turns out that when the most vulnerable people of color are under threat, those who they count on are nowhere to be seen, or at least for some group of people, and I speak explicitly about the political moment we're in today.
- [30:37]
Joy Reid
Right.
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Professor Ekal Yanka
So if we have a president who marshals forces of hatred and anger and divisiveness and, frankly, just danger, quite aside from who he is, I'm not predicting particularly interested in who he is. If the people who call themselves your friends are not going to push back against that, then maybe you can tell me why it is I should trust those people.
- [30:59]
Joy Reid
Well, there you go. It is a particularly poignant point as we are seeing the abject violence being perpetrated against mainly brown, but also black Americans under Trump's second regime. And the question a lot of people have is, who can we trust in this moment? You will recall the terrifyingly violent moment for a Latina woman literally at immigration court with her husband. I'm going to play. And the question is, who can that woman trust in that moment? Who can she trust in that moment if she's surrounded by people and there are people around her who are not behaving as allies? I mean, she would not be crazy to say I don't trust anyone who doesn't intervene. She's a woman with little kids, and she's being brutalized by what are supposed to be federal agents. We can't even confirm that. Now, I want to look at this. This is ice not just ramming a car that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time as they were abducting yet another Latino victim, but then dragging the woman whose car they hit out of her car at gunpoint and then also kidnapping her.
- [32:36]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Yeah.
- [32:40]
Joy Reid
Hit it. Run. Hit and run. That's a hit and run. Hit it. Run. Hit and run. That's a hit and run. Hit and run. Hit and run.
- [32:51]
Julian Brave Noisecat
Look at.
- [32:51]
Joy Reid
Watch out with that weapon. That weapon.
- [32:54]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Yo, watch out.
- [32:55]
Joy Reid
What's wrong with you? You hit it.
- [32:58]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You hit her.
- [32:58]
Joy Reid
Yo, yo, what's wrong? You hit her. You hit her.
- [33:03]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You guys hit her. You guys hit her.
- [33:07]
Joy Reid
What's wrong with y'? All? Y' all hear her?
- [33:10]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Y. Y' all bust a whole u turn in the middle of the street. Y' all hear her? Y on camera.
- [33:21]
Joy Reid
She ain't even do. She trying to go to work. She trying to go to work. Oh, what? Crazy.
- [33:28]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Y' all some crazy. I got no heart.
- [33:30]
Joy Reid
For real. No heart. No heart.
- [33:36]
Professor Ekal Yanka
She's a female.
- [33:38]
Joy Reid
Get off her right now. You guys hit her.
- [33:41]
Professor Ekal Yanka
How you guys going to arrest her? Get off. You guys hit her, man.
- [33:47]
Joy Reid
How y going to arrest her, brother? You hit her.
- [34:02]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You guys hit her. You guys hit her.
- [34:07]
Joy Reid
Whole lotsu right there. Okay. What you just Witnessed was a kidnapping, an armed kidnapping in plain sight of day, wherein the kidnappers of the first person hit the car of a second person, rammed her car, and then arrested and kidnapped the second person as well, and her brother. She's a US Citizen that was kidnapped at gunpoint. If you take that video and put it in Colombia, take that same video and put it somewhere in the Middle east, put it in any other country that you consider to be, quote, unquote, Third World, we would be saying that that country was a lawless tin pot dictatorship. But that is in the United States of America. Those are the kinds of videos that people all over the world are seeing of American cities of people being kidnapped in broad daylight by armed men who could be proud boys, they could be Oath Keepers. They're not showing id. And then they hit other cars and then arrest the people who they could have injured. She could have strained her neck. We don't know what happened. That video is going to be used in the lawsuit, though. Her brother posted that video. But what we saw there are people able to count on their allies. People around that woman are yelling, screaming, videoing. That's what we need. That's what we need in this moment, right? And we are seeing, to be fair, some white Americans say, no, you know what? In this moment, we have to actually be the one to step forward and use our bodies and our white privilege to actually be vocal the way Professor Yanka said you need to do in order to be a true friend. But ICE is not stopping there. They are not. They're now openly brutalizing journalists. Let me play you another scene. This is from immigration court in the United States of America in an American city, immigration. The journalists are trying to follow, take pictures of a kidnapper, elevator. And so that's the new home. This person is injured. And the presumption had always been that what we need are white people to be put their bodies on the line to be that friend that is going to walk, that is going to stand in the gap, because they're not going to be brutalized by police. Well, these aren't police. We don't know what these are. We don't know what these are. We just know they're armed and they're goons and they're thugs and they claim to be feds. All right, let's keep going. Here is a report from Chicago about what happened to black residents who happened to live in an apartment complex with brown people in Chicago. I spoke to one woman who actually lives in this building, and she said she was detained by ICE agents overnight. And she says they took everyone and then asked questions later. They just treated us like we were nothing. Patishu Fisher said she came out to the hallway of her apartment complex on the corner of 75th and South Shore Drive in her nightgown around 10 Monday night, only to find ICE agents yelling police.
- [37:25]
Professor Ekal Yanka
It was scary because I've never had a gun put in my face.
- [37:28]
Joy Reid
They asked my name and my date of birth and asked me did I.
- [37:31]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Have any warrants and I told them no, I didn't.
- [37:33]
Joy Reid
She says. She was then handcuffed and released around 3am Fisher says she was told if anyone had any kind of warrant out for them, even if it was unrelated to immigration, they would not be released. Citizen app video shows the chaotic scene. Budget trucks and military style vans were used to separate parents from their children. Other neighbors say they saw agents destroying property to to get in the building and they had a big 15 inch chainsaw with round blade on it cutting this fence down.
- [37:59]
Professor Ekal Yanka
We're under siege. We're being invaded by our own military.
- [38:02]
Joy Reid
The FBI did confirm this morning that they did help the U.S. border Patrol carry out a targeted immigration enforcement operation in this area. And they say they have been supporting these efforts at the direction of the US Attorney General. I want to read what real talk7685 had to say in the chat and thank you for the $5 tip. We appreciate it. Truth is not the foundation of right wing political discourse. It's branding that is empowered by a litmus test of loyalty to the brand. Amen and thanks to everybody in the chat that is weighing in. Right. Take that video and put that video in another country and you would say that that is a lawless country that probably needs to have the UN occupy it. Now, I'm sure by now you have seen this video of Debbie Brockman. Again, this is a white woman. She works for WGN TV in Chicago. She works in the creative services department. A lot of earlier reports said that she was a journalist, but she is a journalist. She works in creative services. She's not a producer or an on air anchor. She works in creative services for WGN which is a major TV station in Chicago. This is her being thrown to the ground and arrested with her backside exposed last week near Lincoln and Foster. And her crime, witnessing a kidnapping. That's what you are, dude. You're a fascist.
- [39:31]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Sir, what's your name? What's your name?
- [39:33]
Joy Reid
Debbie Brown, man. I work for wgn. Let them know I got you.
- [39:37]
Tucker Carlson
Yep.
- [39:39]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Debbie Browning Brockman Brockman, wg. Do you guys want to share your.
- [39:46]
Joy Reid
Names too, or just going to cover your face? Couldn't cover your face a couple years ago, but you're super happy to do it now, aren't you? Seriously? What the. And note that once again, they hit a car, damaged someone else's property, and sped off like a hit and run. I'm going to give our guest a moment of time. I think he's having a bit of an audio problem, but. So I'm going to play one more video while we get our, our guest ready to go. This is an actual longer story by WGN itself, the station that she works for, about what happened to their employee. Here it is. And that's when I, like, took out my phone and they had just like, tackled her and brought her into the street. And that's when I asked her, like, you know, what's your name? What is your name? Federal agents swarmed a busy intersection in.
- [40:54]
Karen Finney
Chicago's Lincoln Square neighborhood at the height.
- [40:57]
Joy Reid
Of the morning rush hour.
- [40:59]
Tucker Carlson
Among those arrested a WGN employee who.
- [41:01]
Joy Reid
Works in our creative services department.
- [41:04]
Tucker Carlson
WGN's Christine Flores spoke with people who witnessed the encounter.
- [41:07]
Joy Reid
Christine, Ben, and Lourdes. Good afternoon. We're near the intersection of Lincoln and Foster, an area with condos, apartments, and neighbors who came out to capture the commotion. They just puked.
- [41:22]
Professor Ekal Yanka
This woman, I heard yelling and screaming and honking. I ran downstairs to see what was going on. It looked like Border Patrol agents in a minivan had slammed some lady to the ground.
- [41:32]
Joy Reid
And so I ran up to her.
- [41:34]
Professor Ekal Yanka
And asked her for her name. She said she was a WGN employee.
- [41:37]
Joy Reid
The woman being detained is an employee of WGN's creative services department. Josh Thomas lives in the condos above the scene near Lincoln and Foster. When he made his way down around 8:30 Friday morning, he realized there was another person already in the minivan being used by ICE agents.
- [41:55]
Tucker Carlson
I didn't get his name, although I.
- [41:57]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Asked for his name. He didn't speak very good English. They claimed that the WGN employee was obstructing justice even though she was like all of us just, just standing here taking video.
- [42:10]
Joy Reid
The scene was also captured by a woman in a cab on her way to the airport. She was walking east.
- [42:15]
Karen Finney
We were driving west.
- [42:17]
Joy Reid
And that's when I, like, took out my phone and they had just like, tackled her and brought her into the street. And that's when I asked her, like, you know, what's your name? What is your name? We can stop since we have seen that part of the video. Before I want to bring in our guest professor, AKA Yanka. He is the Associate Dean for Faculty and Research at the Thomas M. Cooley professor of And. And the Thomas M. Cooley professor of Law, also professor of Philosophy at the University of Michigan. His work focuses on questions of political and criminal theory, and particularly questions of political obligation and. And justifications of punishment. Professor Yankov, thank you so much for being here.
- [42:54]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Thank you for having me.
- [42:55]
Joy Reid
Of course. I caught on to your interview, actually, late in the day. I didn't know about it originally because I don't really watch the Tucker Carlson show, but came upon it more recently and was amazed by your calm, cool, collected response to his tomfoolery. But I've really been thinking a lot about these questions of obligation as we see mostly brown people get brutalized on the street and many white people now feeling in this second version of the Trump regime that they have to intervene. What do you make of change that shift from Trump 1.0?
- [43:37]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You know, like you were saying about the videos we just watched, these really heartbreaking videos of people whose lives are being just torn asunder. A woman who looks like she's in an immigration office is trying to keep her children close to her, people being kidnapped off the street, literally by mass agents. You know, you've got to be proud of people for being willing to videotape and step up. I mean, when you're staring at masked men with military arms, it takes a lot of bravery to do that. That being said, I wouldn't be being honest if I didn't say, I wish it didn't have to be so visceral and violent before we stood up for each other. I wish it didn't have to come down to body slams. You know, the thing is, we can disagree about a lot of politics, but when your black and brown friends are telling you that if you vote for this kind of thing, this is the danger you're inviting, they weren't making that up. And so I. I'm torn. I'm proud that people are willing to step up in the face of this danger, but wish we wouldn't constantly invite this danger in and then be surprised when it occurs.
- [44:47]
Joy Reid
Yeah, I mean, what I'm struck by is that in the last election, black Americans were definitive in saying, we do not want this man back in office. You know, 80% of black men, 92% of black women, definitive. That's definitive. Latinos, not so definitive. Black latinas were like 55, 45 for Kamala Harris. Latino men were the other way. But Other than that. Other than that, 55% of Latino men, it was white Americans who chose to have Trump back in again definitively right in the way that they always choose the Republican. But it was black people who were the first to step forward and get arrested defending brown people. And I think about Lamonica McIver and those other members of Congress who showed up in Newark, New Jersey, along with the, you know, the mayor, Ras Baraka, and got arrested for trying to just inquire about these disappeared brown people that were in a private prison. And Lamonica McIver is now facing a felony. That didn't surprise me, but it also said something to me because people were saying, well, black women are saying this out our problem. But I saw black people step up immediately. Why do you think that African Americans were so quick to jump in and say, we are going to still step in and try to stand up for these people?
- [46:03]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You know, I think our history here really does fortify, right? I mean, all of us who were raised in America have seen the photos and know what it took to get to where we are now. You know, as distressed as we are about where we are now, we know how far we've come. So if you've seen pictures of people walking across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, if you've seen fire hose turned on children before, if you've seen dogs sicced on children before, I think there's a part of you that knew you can't let this moment pass and then be as proud of yourself as you were of your grandparents or your parents. So I think black Americans, at least some of us, are deeply aware that it's our turn. It might just be the simplest way to put it right, that this story is an arc. We know what it takes to earn the next step in the American story, and we're willing to take our turn. And now the question is, who else, Right? Because on that bridge, there are a lot of white people, there are a lot of religious people, there are a lot. You know, what we can't have is an America that's so proud of everybody who was willing to fight the last fight, but so reticent to step up and fight today's fight, Right?
- [47:14]
Joy Reid
And I think there's part of it that was black Americans who were saying, I'm, you know, this is our turn. We, we weren't raised and trained to have a civil rights movement in Gen X, and we didn't raise our children to have to deal with it because we've, you know, I think a lot of Gen X people, I think, very wrongly thought that the past was passed. But then you do also have a second set of African Americans who say, you know what? Nope. Latinos, you made your choice. We're not doing this. We're not going to do this. Because to your point of your original article, can my children be friends with white people? Can my children be friends with people who are Latino, who voted for Donald Trump, who definitively said, this was our heart's desire to have Trump, and now we're being asked to step forward? So what do you say to those who say, no, you're not our friends? This is your problem. You did this to yourselves.
- [47:59]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You know, you said two things that really touched me. Let me, let me start with the first one. I mean, I totally agree with you. We were not raised for this moment in a lot of ways. You know, as I said in that article, I was raised in East Lansing, Michigan. And don't get me wrong, I don't want to pretend it was utopia. You know, me and my black friends got pulled over more than our white friends. We got followed in. We, we had all the normal, unhappy instances of racism in America, but we had many, many more happy instances. Right? We saw ourselves as part of an arc heading in one direction. And, and it's a funny thing because, you know, we also studied these things. We took tests on this in high school. We know that this is not one simple direction, but it's so easy to think, oh, the past is past. And I think you put your finger on something. You know, when I wrote that article, my point in that article was the heartbreak. Because you thought, you know, I know I disagree with my friends or my, you know, high school mates and my neighbors about many things, but you thought there was a line that people would not allow to be crossed anymore, that the kinds of open racism that Trump trafficked in would just be something people would say this far, no more. And that was the heartbreak. So I just wanted to pick up that line because it touched me when you said that. I get that there's black weariness. I get that there's weariness on all sides, frankly, I think there's weariness on the side. People who feel like we fought so hard in the first Trump administration that your country chose this. Again, there's kind of a, you know, I have to admit something. You, Joy, I'm middle aged now, so now I'm obsessed with my garden, right? And I've got the two kids. I've got a garden now.
- [49:36]
Joy Reid
We call ourselves season age. We're young and fresh. We go there.
- [49:40]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You go.
- [49:40]
Joy Reid
Probably about the same age.
- [49:43]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You. Come join me in my garden sometime. I love the flowers and the. My point is, I get the feeling some of us had after the second election. I'm just going to spend time in my garden. Right. I've done what I can. I've warned you as many, as much as I can. This man has shown you everything he is. I'm, I'm. It's on you now. I'm going to take care of me and mine. And I get that. But I think we know that that's not the answer. I think deep inside we know it's fine to take a moment, it's fine to gather yourself, but we know that the countries never advance when people turn away, when people withdraw. And frankly, I'll just finish by saying I also think that's been true of too many white Trump voters. Right? I mean, too many people. Part of it is they don't follow politics the way you do. Right. You are a political animal. You're. You're not just educated, but you're savvy. You're a media influencer and icon. You're going to know what's going on. Right. Lots of people just say, I just want to drop my kids off. I just want to. The problem is they know deep inside that this isn't right. And so when they hear Trump say these things, when they see masked agents on our streets or when it's brought to their attention and they push it away and they don't want to think about it, that's part of the problem, too. So all of us who want to withdraw, and just because we're tired, deep inside, we know better.
- [51:05]
Joy Reid
I think, you know, I agree. And for you, as a philosophy professor and a law professor, when you look at the state of things now, and as you said, our ancestors have been through, obviously, far worse, you know, and without our resources. But do you have this sense, just philosophically, that something about this American experiment is at its end. End. That if you can't convince people who objectively should know better because they experienced this president before they experienced tariffs and the destruction, before they knew what they were getting and they chose it anyway, do you get the sense that this is. That this has been for 249 years, it's probably done?
- [51:49]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You know, that's a really powerful question. I take it slightly differently. I don't think our destinies are, are written in the stars. I don't think that the natural arc means that we're you know, my friends talk about late stage capitalism or the collapse of the American experiment, I don't know that those things are. Are decreed. What I do think is really true is that Americans don't have the sense that the experiment can fail. Right. And that's really dangerous. Other countries, other empires, other grand experiments have come to an end. And we need to be really aware of that. I'll just put it, you know, you were very kind. I am by training, a theorist, a philosopher, and I have to resist the urge to point to Aristotle or Byzantine empires or. I think simpler is better. What we need to know is that when you say things like, oh, I'm so tired of what's going on in politics, I'll vote for anybody just to blow it up. We need to know what we're really risking here. Because you can only say that if your assumption is, no matter how many bombs I throw, everything will turn out okay in the end, the thing will keep going. And we need to know that we have obligations to build and build better. And you can't just have this childish attitude, oh, I don't like the guy, I don't think he's good, but what the hell, I'll blow it up. So your point is really an important one. We need to know that the American experiment is not guaranteed. It is for us to actually keep moving.
- [53:25]
Joy Reid
It is, but, you know, and one of the things that seems to be guaranteed because it's how the country started in the first place, is that the super capitalists will take over if given the opportunity. Right. I mean, it's sort of ironic that as we approach our 250th birthday in this country, we sort of are returning to the status quo ante, right? Where the super rich that used to be the planting planter class, and now it's big oil, big tech, big insurance, big pharma. They just carved the country up amongst themselves again. You know, it feels like we've kind of gone back to our original founding in a weird way. Yeah.
- [53:58]
Professor Ekal Yanka
I don't think people understand how special it is that we have a middle class. You know, one of the things, if you're really boring, you study the French Revolution and you realize, I'll even make a, you know, if, if I can make a little fun. When people make fun of bougie black people, I smile. I want to tell them, you have no idea how lucky we are. The bougie people didn't exist for hundreds of years. There were kings, there were a few priests, and everybody else was a serf or slave. It is really an extraordinary thing that in this modern moment we have built a huge swath of people who can share in prosperity. And that is not something that you can just assume will keep happening over and over or in the worst way in America that we think, well, I'll just let the powerful get their way because maybe I'll be the one who has a 1 in 100 chance of being one of them. We need to know that prosperity has to be invested in, has to be shared. And back to the point of the article, it is fine for us to agree on a bunch of things. We should, that is the problem of politics, as Aristotle told us, but that there's got to be a bottom line where we stand next to each other and say this far and no further. And if we don't do that about both race, class and opportunity, power will consolidate.
- [55:21]
Joy Reid
Professor AKA Yanka, One of my favorite interviews I think that I've ever done, I really appreciate you. You are brilliant. I love the fact that you took Tucker Carlson to school so thoroughly that all he could do was do the weird laugh at the end. He had nothing. He had nothing. He was out of gas. He was like, let me do my weird laugh and get this man off my show. The associate dean of faculty and research at the Thomas M. Cooley professor and the Thomas M. Professor of Law and Professor of Philosophy at University of Michigan, Professor Yanka. I'm going to take you up on that garden invite someday. I appreciate you. Thank you.
- [55:53]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You're welcome here anytime. Thanks for having me.
- [55:55]
Joy Reid
Thank you so much. Excellent. I think he deserves a round of applause. Jason. I feel like he deserves a round of applause. Thank you also to the chat. We appreciate you guys for being here. We know it's a holiday, so some people are like, no, I'm just gonna barbecue, but it's raining, so you might as well just continue watching. Coming up on the next hour of the Joy Reacho I'm going to introduce you to. This is a good one. New York Attorney General Tish James's cousin. Cousin. You, you could just guess who that is. I'm going to introduce you her cousin. And we're also going to talk about Donald Trump's peace deal in the Israel Hamas war and what it means in real life because I suspect, and maybe I'm just cynical, that some folks are going to make some money off of this and that Donald Trump wouldn't be doing a peace deal if he wasn't getting something in return. And my suspicion is he's getting stuff in return from the Gulf states that have already given him an orb and a plane, the Gulf states that have given him an orb and a plane, and from the Saudis, who seem to be trying to buy their way into everything from golf to comedy to whatever, you name it, they want to make deals. Donald Trump likes making deals. And because of that, he was able to force basically Bibi Netanyahu to come to a peace deal. And we'll see how that works out. But I suspect that there's more to it than peace and Donald Trump's endless quest for a Nobel Peace Prize, which he really, really, really wants. And I think that he really, really, really, really thinks he's going to get it. He thinks if he just holds on, he just holds on, he's going to get it. And I will note for you on that point that the Nobel Peace Prize nominations deadline is in late January. It's like January 25th, which is why he was actually ineligible for it this time, because the deadline was like the 25th and he got inaugurated on the 20th. I know it seems like 10 years ago, but we're going to go into that in the second hour of the show. And to go into it before we get into that, I want to just close up the first hour by saying on Indigenous Peoples Day, I think it's really important that we recognize the indigenous folks who actually owned this country first and had it first. They didn't think about its ownership. They actually had a much more sort of adult understanding of the land. And also the African Americans who were forced to work and build this land. And so that is the way we wanted to start this Indigenous Peoples Day. And Professor Yanko was brilliant and we really loved having him. All right, let's get into hour two of the Joy Reid show. Thank you all for being here. Thank you. To the chat. We have B. Brown7306 saying in all caps, I hope this is a wake up call for Hispanics and non voters. I sure hope so. And I also will note that all of those tapes of the brutality are going to come in real handy in the lawsuits. And I hope that each of those feds understands that there are limits to qualified immunity. And the reason they're covering their faces is some of them know that and realize that at a certain point someone's going to figure out who you were that kidnapped them. If you're a real fed, if you actually had a badge and a warrant, and if not, and it wasn't valid, you might end up losing some things. I'm just saying nothing lasts forever. Everything is cyclical. And eventually this cycle will shift as well. And so those of you who are beating up on people and brutalizing them in the streets and, and kidnapping journalists and doing all the things, your time will come, this worm will turn, and then I just hope you're ready for what happens next. All right, let's talk about the Letitia James case in our second hour of the Joy Reid show. By the way, if you have not hit like and subscribe, please do that. Also hit the share button. And if you hit the little notification thingy, you will always know when we are live. So that way you can never miss anything on the show. So please do that as well, like subscribe and share. We always appreciate it. Thank you. Please, standing up. Thank you for standing up for new media. We really need your support. So I'm gonna now I want to talk about this Tish James case. Lawfare has written an article which talks about the paper thin, as somebody called it earlier today when I was having a conversation with them, the Scott Tissue Thin case against Leticia James, the Attorney General of the great state of New York. It's not even really a case. Note that Lindsay Halligan, again, the lady who basically says there's too much slavery in the museums. That lady, she brought this case without even telling Pamela Jo. She didn't inform Pamela Joe in advance, just went in and did it. She had not a single other lawyer willing to walk into court with her or to sign her indictment paper. She went into a grand jury, she put together, got an indictment, but it is indictment about nothing. I don't have it on screen, but I'm just going to read to you what Lawfair has to say about the case. It says earlier this week, the Justice Department seemed poised to pursue an indictment against Letitia James. New York Attorney General Christy James on path aesthetically weak charges. Yet the charges that actually ended up in the indictment returned on Thursday may somehow even be weaker. U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia Lindsay Halligan, President Trump's handpicked replacement for Eric Siebert, after he concluded there wasn't sufficient evidence to charge either James or former FBI Director James Comey presented evidence to grand jurors herself in the case. That's unusual, and not just because Halligan is an insurance lawyer with no prosecutorial experience. Career staff would typically do the job of presenting. But in this case and Comey's, they balked. In fact, Halligan reportedly didn't even inform Attorney General Bondi. As I said to you before, this case revolves around a property that Letitia James purchased in Virginia, that according to the indictment, she lied on the forms. She purchased the property in 2023 in Norfolk, Virginia, which is why the case was brought in Virginia. They're claiming that she lied on the paperwork and committed mortgage fraud by lying about whether the case was going, whether the home was going to be her primary home. But here's the problem with that. Letitia James is the Attorney General of New York, so how could her primary home possibly be in Virginia? Right? So they're like, aha, we got you. But here's the problem. This argument that she was lying about living in the Virginia property on the mortgage form, it falls apart, as Lawfair points out, because in reality, the primary, it was a primary residence for somebody, just not for Letitia James. It was the primary residence of Letitia James's niece who she was helping out to get a home for herself by co signing the mortgage. She signed onto the mortgage because she had better credit and was helping her niece get a primary home. Perhaps recognizing back to lawfare the questionable quality of this case, prosecutors have settled on another altogether. The indictment they've secured involves a Norfolk property, yes, but one purchased a different one in 2020 rather than the one in 2023. The Justice Department alleges that James described this property as a second home rather than the investment property it truly was. And that by doing so she managed to avoid an 815% higher interest rate and emerge with, quote, ill gotten gains of roll dice, $18,933 over the life of the entire 30 year loan. So they're saying she saved $18,000 on a 30 year loan. Remember, Donald Trump owes the city, the State of New York, $500 million and they're saying, oh no, no, we're going to take her to court over $18,000 savings. They're still charging her with bank fraud and false statements to financial institutions, both of which have a statute of limitations of 10 years. So they have to do it now because one house was in 2021 was in 2023. To win a conviction, they would have to prove that James knowingly made a false statement that was intended to deceive as well as intended or tending to influence a decision of a bank. But the problem now is that Abby Lowell, Letitia James, has hired a really damn good lawyer. Abby Lowell, I'm looking right here. I'm going to show you what I put on screen, but I'm holding in my hot little Hands the letter that Abby Lowell sent to the judge. And this is the letter of the declaration that they sent from his law firm in which he goes through some of the, we'll just call them, flaws in the indictment. He starts out by pointing out the Donald Trump tweet DM that he tried to send to Pamela Joe if he thought was a DM on his Truth Social. But it wasn't. It turned out that it was to everyone, in which he said, there's no time. We have to do this. They also point out that when he was running for office, some of his quotes were, I am your warrior. I am your justice. I am your retribution. If you go after me, I'm coming after you. They know that when he was confirmed, this judge, whose name is Jamar, which I do love, that his name is Jamar, they're saying that, oh, this is actually, I'm sorry, this is a letter he sent to Bondi. This is a letter to Bondi, not to Pam, not to Jamar, the lawyer. Jamar, this is to Bondi, not to the judge. And they go through and they say that when she was confirmed, she said, Pam Bondi said, I wouldn't work at a law firm. I wouldn't be a prosecutor, I wouldn't be Attorney General. If anyone asked me to do something improper and I felt I had to carry that out, of course I would not do that. She also said during her confirmation process, this is Pamela Joe Bondi, not the judge. Yes, I believe that the Justice Department must be independent and must act independently. Politics will not play a part. I've demonstrated that my entire career as a prosecutor, as Attorney General, I will continue to do that if you confirm me, which clearly was a lie. So they point that out all the time. She said she would not politicize the office. That is in the letter that was sent by Abby Lowell's office to Pamela Joe Bondi. Here's what they say about the Norfolk property. Okay, this is the 2023 property. This is what Abby Lowell says in his letter. In 2023, Ms. James assisted her niece, Shamice Johnson Hairston, who needed financial support with the down payment to purchase a home in Norfolk, Virginia. The mortgage application required only one individual to live at the property. Director P.T. cherry picked an August 17, 2023 power of attorney that mistakenly stated that the Property will be Mrs. James Primary Residence and at the time absolutely ignored her very clear and all cap statement two weeks earlier to the mortgage loan broker that the property, all caps will not be my primary residence. It will be Chamisa's primary residence. He then includes exhibits, and that is exhibit A. Here's exhibit A. I'm going to hold it up for you. Now. In exhibit A, he actually shows you the part where Tish James literally says in Exhibit A, not going to be my primary residence. So he actually includes the part of her mortgage application where she literally says that. They also go on in his letter to talk about the other property that they're trying to accuse her of defrauding the country over. They also talk about a third Property that in 1983, Tish James father, Robert James, sought to buy a home for his family in the Jamaica neighborhood of Queens, New York. He asked his daughter, who was then a few years out of law school, to help by allowing him to add her name to the mortgage application. Ms. James filled out the mortgage material, wherein he described their relationship as being spouses and purchased the home without his daughter's involvement. Yet in a predictable pattern here, Director Pulte cites a mistake. In May 20, 1983, document Ms. James filed filled out to cast his baseless allegation, while again ignoring the other supporting documentation, one on the same exact date that correctly describes Ms. James as being his daughter. He ticked the wrong box. And they're now trying to charge her with a crime, even though her form that she filled out, which she's required to disclose on her financials, lists her as the daughter of this man. They also talk about the fact that they have a multifamily home where much of the family lives that she is helping her family to purchase, because, again, she's become a very successful lawyer and decided that she wanted to help her family, her niece and another family member to become homeowners and to have a place to live. In short, what I'm saying to you is that when Donald Trump got indicted or civilly charged by Letitia James for committing a crime, what she charged him with was defrauding the state of New York to the tune of $500 million. What he's charging her with is buying a home to help her family. He's saying that her buying a home to help her family is a crime, when, in fact, he is the criminal. He is the criminal. In a moment, I'm going to introduce you to Letitia James, cousin, who knows this story better than I and who can explain the things that she has done to try to help her family. But while we're waiting for that, I want to tell you who Pulte is. The Pulte who is being discussed in this Indictment. The person who actually brought about. Okay, who actually brought about this indictment is a guy named Bill Pulte. If that sounds familiar, it's because Bill Pulte is the heir to the Pulte fortune. It is a firm that builds homes. He is the extremely online right wing Twitter Happy Pulte. Family member who Donald Trump put in charge of the Federal Housing Authority. He's in charge of the Federal Housing Finance Agency. And what he's been doing with his time is going after numerous Democratic appointees and Democrats themselves to try to get revenge on Donald Trump's behalf. He is the person behind going after Lisa Cook for getting a mortgage, going after Letitia James for getting a mortgage. And he's got in his sights going after Adam Schiff over a mortgage. Do you see the pattern here? The Trump regime going all the way back to include Marilyn Mosby, is going after particularly black women for the apparent crime of buying a home. So Donald Trump committed 34 count felonies and stole classified documents that he didn't belong to him and tried to overthrow the government. But Tish James and Lisa Cooke and Marilyn Mosby bought a home. Let's introduce you all to the cousin of the great Letitia James, and her name is Karen Finney.
- [69:59]
Karen Finney
Hi.
- [69:59]
Joy Reid
I am two days old finding out that Karen Finney is cousin. And I talking play cousins. Like how I'm play cousins with. With Jackie Reed. She my play cousin. You're her actual cousin?
- [70:12]
Karen Finney
Yes, yes. She is named after my great aunt, her aunt. Aunt Tish. Tish Finney. So, yeah, my mind is blown.
- [70:24]
Joy Reid
My mind is blown. Karen Finney, I've known you for so long and I've known her for quite a while, and the fact that I've never put this together, that y' all are cousins, my mind is blown officially. But talk to me about your cousin because she seems like a person based on this Abby Lowell declaration here that he sent to Pamela Joe to really be someone who's tried to help her family get into homes. Can you talk about that?
- [70:49]
Karen Finney
Absolutely. Look, she is someone who, you know, she did her job as the Attorney General. And in terms of the family, she did her job. She is doing her job, which, you know, when you can help family, you help family.
- [71:06]
Joy Reid
Yes.
- [71:07]
Karen Finney
And so the, the idea, I love how you put this, that this is about trying to buy homes. This is about trying to give people a safe place, you know, with. For chemise, it was also so that she could go to school, she could have a, you know, a safe place for her kids. I Mean, isn't that what we want for everybody? Isn't that what we would do for family if we could? You know, and then the other property in Norfolk, also a safe space for a family member. So we're talking about someone who is doing the things you're supposed to do, right? Who is saying, I'm going to take care of family, I'm going to do my job to the best of my abilities, and when I can help, I'm going to help because I just think that's what's right. And she's a real role model to me in that. I mean, obviously she's a hero for lots of reasons, but she's also someone. She's someone who, you know, you can count on.
- [72:08]
Joy Reid
Yeah. And the thing that's so all of this is dumb. I'm sorry. It is. A mutual friend of ours called it the Scott's paper towel Indict. Paper towel. The Scott toilet tissue indictment. It's a toilet tissue. It's the thinnest. And we say that because it is the thinnest of the toilet tissues. It's not. It's not. It's not pillowy, soft, okay.
- [72:28]
Karen Finney
It's the hard stuff, extra thick. Okay.
- [72:32]
Joy Reid
No, it's the Scots. Okay. It's the stuff you get in a gas station bathroom. Okay. It just has no. It is such a thin indictment. And you can see that it's dumb because no other lawyer in the Department of Justice was willing to walk in there with Lindsey Halligan and stand beside her as she brought it. What do you make of the trend now that we've seen with Marilyn Mosby, with Lisa Cook, with Letitia James, that it feels like the Trump regime is using Bill Pulte, who is cuckoo, for Cocoa Puffs, a right wing maga, and he is now targeting black homeownership for criminalization. Right.
- [73:10]
Karen Finney
And, you know, it's so hypocritical. And I'm going to switch out of cousin mode and go into political strategist mode.
- [73:17]
Joy Reid
Please do.
- [73:18]
Karen Finney
And, Matt, consider the fact that several members, at least three that we know of the Trump administration, have similarly have had similar patterns in some of the. The things they've done. And they're not being indicted.
- [73:33]
Joy Reid
Right.
- [73:34]
Karen Finney
So what's up with that? Where's their indictment? Because, you know, look, it can't be that there's one set of rules. I mean, this is how Trump believes, but it should be that there's one set of rules for Trump and his people and another set of rules for everyone else. And I Think it's very telling that the lawyers, both in this case and in some of the others, you know, certainly Comey and we've seen this pattern where career attorneys are saying, no, we are not going to do this and because they know it is bad for their own reputation.
- [74:06]
Joy Reid
Yes, right.
- [74:07]
Karen Finney
They, and they actually believe in the law. And you know, Joy, that's something I don't, you know, you may have touched on this earlier, but that I want people to because I've seen this talking point where people are trying to say, oh well, it's kind of similar between what she, what Tish is went after Trump 4 and 1 and then Trump going after. It's not at all the same hers. What there was a two year investigation. Michael Cohen, during testimony to Congress talked about the fact that Donald Trump was defrauding New Yorkers in the, in, you know, these apartments overestimate a number of different ways, overvaluing certain properties, undervaluing certain properties. At other times there was a two year investigation and as we know, she won that case. Meanwhile. And that's part of why we say this is so thin. And you were reading through it, I mean, really for buying, for helping. And by the way, it was $137,000 house, I believe.
- [75:05]
Joy Reid
Come on. I mean, pardon me, can I just say, to stop you there, I don't want to put a pin in it. I don't put a pin in you because I, I want, I don't want people to miss this point. We're talking about $137,000 house that Letitia James knew that because she was a successful lawyer and attorney general, she could sign on that mortgage and help a family member get a home.
- [75:22]
Karen Finney
That's right.
- [75:22]
Joy Reid
When Donald Trump's case, we're talking about 10, 30, $40 million properties that he is saying this $40 million property is only worth 2 million because he wants to get favorable insurance terms. And then he says, oh no, no, no, it's worth like a hundred million because he wants to get a loan. The difference between it is night and day. We're talking about a man who was born on third base with 360, $17 million in the bank, defrauding the state of New York when he didn't have to, when he had the money and even though he had defaulted on multiple loans, could still get credit from a bank and rather than get the credit honestly lied to the banks and then turn around and lied to insurance companies. And his 10 year attorney, Michael Cohen testified to that under oath in 2019, told the truth. And they got thrown in solitary by Trump's DOJ to punish him for telling the truth. That is what Donald Trump did. Leticia James, when she brought that case, she could have tried to go after him criminally, but she went after him civilly. She gave him a break. She could have thrown his ass in prison for that. But instead she civilly indicted him, won the case. And this is very important piece that you guys have to know, which apparently is not is the normal way it goes. She didn't try that case herself. She wasn't in there in that grand jury during that herself. She sent her lawyers in there because it was a righteous case and they were willing to stand on business in court to back up that case because they knew it was solid. This crazy lady, Lindy, Lindsay Halligan, the insurance lawyer who really should be investigated Trump, but she's like a beauty queen or whatever. He couldn't even get nobody to walk with her. Go ahead.
- [76:50]
Karen Finney
No. And so by the way, she shows up in court by herself, which is highly irregular. Then that's why this point about, you know, the fact that Tish, you know, lawyers in her office again after a two year investigation showed up in court, presented the evidence, he was found guilty. You may disagree with the amount that the judge said he had to pay, but he was found guilty and he's.
- [77:17]
Joy Reid
Still guilty even though a, a federal judge has thrown out the, the amount. So they have to rethink about what he owes. But his guilt stands and to the point that Karen earlier made. And the great Karen Fitty. I, I'm so excited that she's on the show. The cousin of Tishj. I will say that every day because I just love, love it so much. As Karen pointed out, Labor Secretary Lori Chavez DMER entered into two primary residence mortgages in quick succession, including for a second home near a country club in Arizona where she's known to vacation Transport Secretary Sean Duffy, the guy from the real world Boston, who shouldn't be in his job. He has primary residence mortgages in New Jersey and Washington DC's Lee Zeldin, the E, the Environmental Protection Agency administrator, has one primary residence mortgage mortgage in Long island and another in Washington D.C. and it's actually a fourth one, Scott Besant, who actually did the exact same thing as well, who's the head of the Treasury Department. So the Donald Trump regime is full of people who did the exact same thing. But in the case of Letitia James, she didn't even do the thing that they're talking about. She Literally was signing second mortgages, and she was not ever going to be the primary resident. It was for someone else. Please go, Karen.
- [78:25]
Karen Finney
No, that's exactly right. And so let's go. Go back to the Trump case. As you pointed out, he was trying to enrich himself. She was trying to help our family.
- [78:33]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [78:34]
Karen Finney
Okay. And that's what we should do when we can help someone, when we can help our family members, that's what we should do. Isn't that a core value? Isn't that a core American value? Isn't a core American value to own a home? And you know, this particularly for those of us, you know, it was so important to my father, you know, that I own property because our families come from, you know, the understanding that that is how you create and pass on generational wealth.
- [79:03]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [79:04]
Karen Finney
That is also part of how you create a safe space, the ability to go to school, to keep your children safe, let them go to a good school.
- [79:12]
Joy Reid
Right.
- [79:13]
Karen Finney
That there's so many things that come with home ownership that are so important to grounding our lives, to enrich. Enriching our lives. So, you know, the idea that they're going after these black women over this is, It's. It's outrageous. Why are they saying, why can't we own a home, too? And again, we're not talking about multi. I can't speak for Lisa Cook, but as you pointed out, these homes in Norfolk, these are very homes, very modest homes. But again, you know, Joy, you've talked about this. I know. I mean, you've talked about this for the longest. This is what an authoritarian regime looks like. Right. When you consolidate power. And he's continuing to do it. And then you use the Department of Justice.
- [79:59]
Joy Reid
Yes.
- [80:00]
Karen Finney
As a weapon of your own revenge. Because really, this lawyer, Halligan, she doesn't work for the Department of Justice. She works for Donald Trump.
- [80:08]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [80:09]
Karen Finney
Right. And that's not what it. How it's supposed to be.
- [80:11]
Joy Reid
We're supposed. That's right.
- [80:12]
Karen Finney
Have different branches of government. We're supposed to have. This is why career employees matter, because they are people who are bound to doing the work, to following the law, not the politics of the moment, by the way. And so I. It's an. While it's this. We're talking about tish. This is bigger than tish.
- [80:32]
Joy Reid
Yes.
- [80:32]
Karen Finney
This is about black women in part. This is about our country in part. And this is why. I just think it's so important people understand when we talk about authoritarianism, this is what we're talking about.
- [80:42]
Joy Reid
Absolutely.
- [80:43]
Karen Finney
About a president who is abusing his power. And here's the last thing I'll say, Joy. I am convinced that the American people are getting tired of it. And I've seen the data to prove that. Pew has had some great research showing that Americans are concerned that he's overusing his power, that he's abusing his power and not for them. So the gig is up. Right. We just have to make sure we are continuing to help people understand that some of the things they see happening. Yes, that's what we're talking about.
- [81:12]
Joy Reid
Yeah, yeah.
- [81:13]
Karen Finney
If you think that's not right, you're right. Because I think people sense in their gut that what some of what's going on isn't right. And look, costs are still high, Inflation is still high. You know, if only he would pursue bringing costs down the way he is pursuing the people he calls his enemies. Come on, imagine that.
- [81:35]
Joy Reid
Imagine that. And the thing about that, that, that I think is so important that you just pointed out, as far as the costs are too high, what we're all told is that if the cost is too high to rent, what you should really be trying to do is not throw your money away on rent, but try to own a home.
- [81:48]
Julian Brave Noisecat
That's right.
- [81:48]
Joy Reid
And the, and buying a home and owning a home and owning property, land, as many, you know, a couple of homes. This is the American dream. And what Donald Trump is doing is he's weaponizing the American dream against black women. He has thrown black women largely out of the workforce, particularly the federal workforce. The federal workforce is a foundation of the black middle class. He said, nope, we don't want black women there. He is attempting to throw black people and brown people out of college. The step up for black and brown people and Asian Americans for non white people has always been higher education. And he's saying, nope, Particularly black people, we don't want you there. When black people try, like the Fearless Fund did, to be self help and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and give each other a little money to start a business, he says, nope, you can't do that. The Justice Department, under their supposed Civil Rights Division, their Uncivil rights division, says, nope, you can't even help each other. They're saying, no education for you, no middle class jobs for you, no voting. You don't get to vote. They're trying to go back and get rid of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Act. No voting. Right. And now no homeownership. They're basically saying, we're going to cut off every lane of the middle class American dream, particularly from black women. Because black women are the ones who voted the hardest and strongest against him. He has a particular vituperative hatred of black women. Because we resisted him the hardest.
- [83:16]
Karen Finney
Well, because we see through it. Right. I mean we, we were never fooled.
- [83:20]
Joy Reid
Ever.
- [83:20]
Karen Finney
Not the first time, not the second time, not any time. And you know, there's one, there's another way that he is trying to take away access to the middle class from black Americans. And that's also what they're doing with the armed forces.
- [83:35]
Joy Reid
Yeah, I left that one out. You're absolutely. That is a huge way that black folks get in the middle class. Absolutely. Please go on.
- [83:40]
Karen Finney
How many black men and women have served in our armed forces in. Even when they had to be in segregated units to do so.
- [83:48]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [83:49]
Karen Finney
Fight for the foundational values of this country. My own father, he was not in a war, but he went into the army. It helped him pay for college.
- [83:57]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [83:58]
Karen Finney
It was. That also was part of the American dream and the vision that we have to create pathways and then if you're willing to serve your country, we owe you something.
- [84:10]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [84:11]
Karen Finney
That's just foundational. And so that's another area where, you know that Hegseth speech that was so ridiculous where. And the assertion that somehow, I mean, you know, we are doing our part, we are fighting these wars, we are serving our country with honor and they're trying to take that away from us. And it's, you know, this. So much of what is happening here too, Joy, as they're pushing us out of the workforce, they're pushing our voices and our expertise out as well.
- [84:39]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [84:40]
Karen Finney
And that I hope other Americans realize that is dangerous for this country. Think about the black sister researcher who founded the COVID vaccine from Moderma.
- [84:54]
Joy Reid
Yep.
- [84:55]
Karen Finney
Think about the brilliance. Think about what it means when you're sitting around decision making tables and you have black and brown voices and women, particularly black women, who have a very different lived experience being able to bring in that. That lived experience and that expertise. Basically what they're saying is we don't care.
- [85:13]
Trita Parsi
We don't want to hear from you.
- [85:14]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [85:15]
Karen Finney
You don't, you don't have what it. We don't think you have what we. Anything that's of value to us.
- [85:20]
Joy Reid
Yep. You're not entitled to it. They said the America is for white men and you will have nothing because they don't even want white Women to have anything. Before I let you go, Karen, tell us how your cousin is doing. How is she holding up under all this bs?
- [85:31]
Karen Finney
You know, I think she's doing well. She is so focused on. She, as she said herself, she is not afraid. She is a woman of faith. She is staying in her faith. And by the way, she's doing her job because by the way, she has several other cases, her office has several other cases against the Trump administration. We know what they're going to try to do with the militarization of our streets like we've seen in Chicago. We know they're going to try to roll into New York like that. So she's just, look, she's one of the first who took him on, on the Muslim band.
- [86:01]
Joy Reid
That's right.
- [86:02]
Karen Finney
Last time. So she is, she is focused on doing the work. She is unafraid. She is focused on serving New Yorkers and being part of, you know, being part of our family. So don't worry. And remember, she would, I think, would say this is about all of us. This is a fight for all of us to be part of. And don't worry about her. She's doing fine. She's focused on the work.
- [86:25]
Joy Reid
That case is so dumb that I hope there's some way that she can file a lawsuit against Donald Trump again for wasting the taxpayers dollars on these silly prosecutions that literally make no sense and that no one who's a real lawyer believes have any foundation. But we're wasting money when they claim we have no money for health care. We have no money to help indigent people get health care. We have no money for anything except Trump's ballroom, him to travel all over the world trying to get a Nobel Peace Prize and these dumb lawsuits. Karen Phinney, a Democratic political strategist extraordinaire and my friend and the cousin of the Attorney General of the state of New York. Your family is pretty badass. I have to give it to you. Y' all did a good job. So tell your family, your whole family, hey, thank you so much, my friend. I appreciate you.
- [87:14]
Karen Finney
Take care.
- [87:15]
Joy Reid
Thank you very much. A round of applause, please, for Karen. Vinnie, if you don't, I'm gonna do a real quick thing because we. Before we get to our next guest, I want to skip to the E. To the E. The E elements, if you don't mind. I want to jump in because I feel like E1 is kind of where I'm feeling in this moment because Donald Trump is literally going after all of the underpinnings of the American dream for black people, for brown people, if you think about it, for a lot of immigrants who come from Latin America, from Guatemala, and from El Salvador and Venezuela, especially people who come in at the lower income scale, those jobs they have in restaurants, even in the fields, this is a way that they're taking care of their families back home and they're building something. In many cases in this country. They're taking DACA people and deporting them, throwing them out of the country. They're. Look at this. They're brutalizing anybody brown, including citizens, and essentially saying, if you're brown, you have no place in this country. You have no right to feel safe. There's nowhere you can feel safe. We can take you anytime. These masked men in some cases themselves, who are brown, which is disgusting, or black, but in most cases who are white and could be January 6th insurrectionist for all we know. J. If you could put that back up. This is. This is E1. I saw this and I said, you know what? This is meaningful to me on today. And it is this. Did you all see this picture? This image was taken at a Thursday cabinet meeting. According to the Daily Beast, it shows the President sitting in front of an illuminated golden eagle with its wings creating the illusion that he's dawning a pair of horns. Jim Watson, a photojournalist who formerly worked for the US Navy as a US Navy photographer, captured the image of the president with high ranking Trump administration officials following the Israel Hamas peace deal. That is Donald Trump. He looks like. He kind of looks like the devil. Let's look at. Let's look at E2. Let's look at E2. Because I'm just saying I go back and forth between whether I think Donald Trump sold his soul to the devil. It might be the devil. Here he is. This is a completely different photograph, y'. All. A completely separate photograph. President Donald Trump. Trump holds a roundtable meeting with Hispanic leaders in the Cabinet Room before signing an executive order in the Rose Garden of the White House. And this was way back in July of 2020. You see the orb behind him? It's still the devil horn. This was five years ago. Now, look, I'm not saying Donald Trump is Satan, okay? But I'm just saying. Can we look. Can we look at. At E3. I'm not saying he's Satan or that he sold his soul to Satan. I'm just saying that. I mean, that's a giddy picture. Let's listen. Let's play E4. This is the thing that Donald Trump recently said before he left for his trip to the Middle east, he was asked about whether there he and Russ Vogt, who is the director of the Office of Management and Budget, who's the guy who wrote, who's one of the architects of Project 2025, and he's been bragging that they're going to use this shutdown, which the Republicans have created, because they can't figure out how to function the government. They have the votes. They could easily just run the government. They just do it themselves. But the reason that they can't get any help from the Democrats in the Senate is they're insisting on allowing these credits, these tax credits that help people afford health care. They want them, let them expire, and they're like, oh, we'll negotiate later. Sorry. Why should the Democrats negotiate with you later when you don't even respect the spending bills that were already passed? So if you're saying we don't have to listen to Congress, we do what we want in the White House, then why should Democrats negotiate with your peons in the Senate and the House? Why negotiate with them? You're not going to respect anything that comes out of that negotiation anyway. So what Democrats are doing, and it's actually pretty clever, the folks at Whatchamacallit picked up on this, I'm forget the name of it. One of these sort of conservative, anti Trump outfits pick this up, that what Democrats are doing in the United States Senate. They're saying, we're not going to vote to pass any spending bill until we get not one, but two things. One of them, you have to extend those Obamacare subsidies. Those subsidies have to stay in number two. We also want to put something in the bill that would prevent the Trump administration from not following spending. But no health care, no vote. That is no health care, no vote. That is what Congress is saying. NAACP saying it. The Congressional Black Caucus is saying it. The Congressional Progressive Caucus. Really, all the caucuses at this point, the House is solid. They're like, no health care, no vote. On the Senate side, they're holding strong on no health care, no vote. But they're also saying, we want a provision in the bill that forces the administration at least penalizes the administration if they don't follow the spending plan in this bill because Congress is supposed to have the purse strings. But the Trump administration says now we do what we want. Now let me let you hear Satan. I'm sorry, I mean, Trump talking about what he's going to do. This is E4 for Mr. Jason Reed. When you get a chance to hear this, the reductions in force have begun related to this shutdown. How many layoffs have you authorized for this first round and from which agencies? And it will be Democrat oriented because we figure, you know, they started this thing, so they should be Democrat oriented. It'll be a lot. And we'll announce the numbers over the next couple of days, but it'll be a lot of people, all because of the Democrats. I mean, they want to give one and a half trillion dollars to people.
- [92:28]
Trita Parsi
That came to the country illegally.
- [92:30]
Joy Reid
More important than that is a lie. That is a lie. It's illegal. You can't give Obamacare to people who are undocumented. They're not eligible. And also, again, it's not logical. Why would you step forward and announce that you're undocumented and expose yourself by trying to fill out a form to get Obamacare? That don't even make sense. That's like saying undocumented people vote. Why would you expose yourself to getting deported to. By trying to vote when you know it's illegal? That doesn't make sense. If you're in the country legally, you trying to keep your head down. You're not filling out federal forms. That doesn't even make sense. Where would they send it? They're gonna send it to your address and they're gonna come get you. What are you talking about? That doesn't even make sense. But that's the line they're trying to. Even Marjorie Taylor Green doesn't believe that at this point. She's like, nah, this, this, this. This ain't working for us. We're hurting my people in rural Georgia is what mar. Marjorie Taylor Green is. She's like, no, I'm. I'm off this. I'm not doing it with y'. All. It's not good. Let me play one more piece of video. This is what the Republican Charlie Kirkism has wrought. I think this is actually a hilarious piece of video because people who are MAGA who are not white are getting this rude awakening in this moment that they are the them in the US versus them. That MAGA really. And those of us who have said for years, myself, many Haas and others who have said that MAGA is a white supremacist religious philosophy. And that's what I believe. I think that MAGA ism is a white supremacist religion. It's a religion whose basis is white supremacy. And I'm a stand on that, no matter what. I'm a stand on it. It is a religious White supremacist theory. But here is what happens when somebody who is not white, and in this case Vivek Ramaswamy, attempts to join MAGA and be part of the gang, but the philosophy of MAGA comes back to bite him in the ass. Vivek Ramaswamy is trying to run. What is he running for? Governor of Ohio. He thinks he's one of them, but here's how he finds out. He ain't us, he's them. This is if I, for Jesus Christ is God and there is no other God, he's part of the Holy Trinity and any other God is a demon and it's false. How can you represent the constituents of.
- [94:25]
Karen Finney
Ohio who are 64 Christian if you.
- [94:28]
Joy Reid
Are not a part of that faith? If you are an Indian, a Hindu, coming from a different culture, different religion than those who founded the this country.
- [94:35]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Those who grew this country, built this.
- [94:37]
Joy Reid
Country, made this country the beautiful thing that it is today. What are you conserving?
- [94:41]
Karen Finney
You are bringing change.
- [94:42]
Joy Reid
I'll be 100% honest with you. Christianity is the one truth. Christian voices should be the main voice of America. And I want to know basically why you seem to be, and I don't mean to be horribly offensive, but why you seem to be masquerading as a Christian familiar with the Ten Commandments? You call yourself a Hindu, but you also call yourself Christian. I don't call myself Christian.
- [95:05]
Professor Ekal Yanka
I call myself a Hindu.
- [95:07]
Joy Reid
I'm not running to be pastor of Ohio. I'm running to be governor of Ohio. And I didn't run to be pastor of America.
- [95:11]
Professor Ekal Yanka
I ran to be president of the United States of America. What's your faith? I'm a Christian follower of Jesus.
- [95:18]
Trita Parsi
Great.
- [95:18]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Do you believe in the. In the Holy Trinity, the Father, the.
- [95:22]
Joy Reid
Son and the Holy Spirit? I think. I think a lot of people here do.
- [95:26]
Professor Ekal Yanka
So, and.
- [95:27]
Joy Reid
And that doesn't make you a polytheist, does it? Probably not, no. Great. And so in my faith, I believe there's one true God. He resides in all of us and he appears in different forms, but it's one true God. So I'm an ethical monotheist. That's the way I would describe my faith. Do you think it's inappropriate for someone who's a Hindu to be, say, a U.S. president? No, I think it's. No. Well, you be honest. Isn't Hinduism because you're an Indian? I can ask yourself that. Hinduism believes in Shiva. And what is it?
- [96:02]
Professor Ekal Yanka
The.
- [96:02]
Joy Reid
The flute. The flute. God. I forgot. I forget.
- [96:05]
Tucker Carlson
Right.
- [96:05]
Joy Reid
Krishna. Who's you Thinking of, yeah, Krishna. But isn't Charlie Kirk's organization founded on Christian values as well? And isn't the United States of America also, you know, based on what Protestantism is based on, based on how those values are?
- [96:20]
Tucker Carlson
Wouldn't that contradict what your beliefs are?
- [96:23]
Joy Reid
Like I said, I'm not here to justify my faith to you any more.
- [96:25]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Than you are to me.
- [96:26]
Joy Reid
But what I do share is the value set this country was founded on. And I think that it's really important.
- [96:31]
Professor Ekal Yanka
That we not reinvent the founding of.
- [96:34]
Joy Reid
This country and what it was actually all about. He said, I'm one of you. And they said, no, you're not. Aren't you a hinder do. And you know what's so. What's so. What's so fun about this is he shares the same ethnic background as JD Vance's wife and a lot of the white Christian nationalists. You heard what's her name, Ann Coulter, say, I wouldn't vote for you for president. You're a Hindu. You're not American. You white, you're not white. She told him, I would not vote for you for president. You are a. You are a brown Hindu. Get out of here. I like that you're with us, though. And all the black maga, all those ones who are going on the little college campuses, they feel the same about you. You're not one of them. I know you think you are. I know you feel like you're part of maga and MAG is your thing, and MAG is your tribe, not your tribe, buddy. You may want to be with them, but they don't want to be with you. How about that? They. They don't. They don't want to be with y', all, but you all want to be part of the club. And a lot of Latinos are finding out the same thing. A lot of people were, oh, I will vote. And then all of a sudden like, oh, shit, I'm getting toward it too. Because you know what? Everybody brown just know that you can be on the bus, the MAGA bus, but you supposed to be in the bag. They don't believe that you are equal to them because MAGA ism is a white Christian nationalist philosophy. It just is. That's what it is. It is a belief that this country was created by and for white people. And if you're not a white people, they just actually don't believe that you even should be here or that you belong here. Before I play, we're going to get to our next thing, but I'm going to Go back. I'm going to see if I can find it. Jason, There is. Let me see if I can find. I'm gonna see if I can find it. They, they, they actually think that white people founded the country, created the country, that they did it by themselves, that they had no, they, they don't even, they don't even cotton to the fact. They won't even connect to the fact that black people had anything to do with it, that indigenous people were legitimately here before the white settlers came. They don't believe any of that. Their philosophy is that this is a white Christian nation and people like Russ Vogt and these, they have no problem getting rid of. It's B16 if you can find it. Jason. B16. They actually believe that people who are brown and black are illegitimate members of this society, have no claim on America, have no claim on American history, have no claim on anything this country has. And that if anybody, black or brown, has anything, as JD Vance said to me, we should be grateful we were given it by white people, and we should be grateful to have it and don't believe that we earned it or deserve it or can keep it. And what Donald Trump is Now doing through Mr. Pulte, who inherited a billion dollar fortune from his real estate empire, his daddy's real. He didn't build it, his dad built it. Like Trump's dad built the empire he inherited. These people who started on third base and created nothing believe that those who of us who had nothing and created something don't deserve it because we only got it because we're black and brown. And that goes for you too, Vi Ramaswamy. And by the way, J.D. vance's son is named also Vivek. Jason, let me know when you have B16 and we can play it. I got it. All right, let's play it.
- [99:52]
Tucker Carlson
The Continental army soldiers dying of frostbite at Valley Forge. The pilgrims struggling to survive in the hard winter soil of Plymouth. The pioneers striking out from Missouri for the wild and dangerous frontier. The outnumbered Kentucky settlers repelling wave after wave of Indian war band attacks from beyond the stockade walls. All of them will be astonished to hear that they were only fighting for a proposition they believed they were fighting for a nation, a homeland for themselves and their descendants. They fought, they bled, they struggled, they died for us. They built this country for us.
- [100:32]
Joy Reid
America in all its glory is their.
- [100:35]
Tucker Carlson
Gift to us, handed down across the generations. It belongs to us.
- [100:40]
Joy Reid
It's our birthright.
- [100:41]
Tucker Carlson
It's our heritage, our destiny.
- [100:43]
Joy Reid
If America is everything and everyone then it is nothing and no one at all.
- [100:52]
Tucker Carlson
When they tear down our statues and monuments, mock our history and insult our traditions, they're attacking our future as well as our past by changing the stories.
- [101:05]
Joy Reid
We tell about ourselves.
- [101:06]
Tucker Carlson
They believe they can build a new America with the new myths of new people. But America doesn't belong to them.
- [101:15]
Joy Reid
It belongs to us. It's our home.
- [101:18]
Tucker Carlson
It's a heritage entrusted to us by our ancestors.
- [101:21]
Joy Reid
It's a way of life that is ours and only ours.
- [101:24]
Tucker Carlson
If we disappear, then America too will cease to exist.
- [101:30]
Joy Reid
That is what they believe. That's Eric Schmidt. He's the United States Senator and that's what he thinks about anyone who is not a white person in this country. We're gonna shift to another topic shortly, but I wanna note that in the chat we just had v Brew Turtle thank you for the $5 noting that Akawa Mackie Chief Lisa Cypress has been imprisoned. Sign a petition. If you put the petition or send it to us, we will. We would love to get it. You can send that to newstips, the joyreadshow.com please send that to us. I'm going to read a little bit of the I quickly googled the article. A self described descendant of the Eastern Shore of Virginia's Gingaskin Indian tribe who was unsuccessfully was unsuccessful in claiming ownership of Indian Town park in a PNC bank parcel near Eastville in U.S. east District Court last year. Was indicted earlier this month by Northampton grand jury of 51 fraud cans. It appeared to involve her insistence that she owns local lands. She's a 59 year old. Her name is Lisa Ras Cypress of Decatur, Georgia. She was indicted May 10th on counts of maliciously filing liens on encumbrances on Northampton Northampton Circuit Court for two properties in Indiantown Park. I will do some more research on that. We'll have our producers look into it and we will figure out what is going on there. Let me move on very quickly to what's happening in the Middle East. Donald Trump is in Egypt right now and he is there because he is so excited that his attempts to broker a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel appear to have worked. Y' all let me know when our guest is available and if we have the time we can place is available. Oh he's available all right. Well we won't even do it. I'm going to go ahead and just bring him in because we want to find out what in the world is going on with that. Joining me now is Trita Parsi, co founder and executive Vice president at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. Let's talk about this. Donald Trump very excited, and I think believing the Nobel Peace Prize is imminent because of this peace deal that was negotiated between Hamas and Israel. All of the remaining living hostages and the bodies of those hostages that were deceased have been returned by Hamas. And I believe hundreds of Palestinian prisoners have been released from Israeli jails. Thousands have been released. Tell us the details of this deal.
- [103:52]
Trita Parsi
So, first of all, I think we have to be very clear. This deal at this point is a ceasefire and a prisoner exchange. Hostages that the Israelis have taken, I think it's appropriate to call them hostages. We're talking about hundreds of people who have been taken under what the Israelis call administrative detention, which means they imprison them. No charges, no trial, no accusations, and they can be in administrative detention for years. And a large number of them, incidentally, are women and children. So, you know, in the media in general, they refer to as prisoners, but. But they're essentially hostages as well. So there's been a hostage and a ceasefire. That, in and of itself, obviously, is very, very positive. Now, that is not enough to win a Nobel Peace Prize. However, to do that, you need to achieve much, much more. Now, Trump does have the ambition to make this a bigger deal. The pathway to it is trickier, requires far greater attention to detail. But I think we have to be very honest and say that something has changed here that actually may make this work, and that is not only is Trump as president, personally involved, he's put his own name on this, he's really taken ownership of this. Opposing it is to oppose Trump. And most leaders in the world right now are quite disinclined to take that path, including the Israelis. But perhaps absolutely most importantly, what we saw here is exactly what could have happened already two years ago. An American president that decided to put pressure on Israel, and Israel was pressured into this deal, which. And it also then means they will only stay in this deal as long as Trump sustains that pressure. Now, he could have done it earlier. In fact, he did it in January, got a deal, let go of the pressure, and the Israelis broke that ceasefire in March. Biden never did it. And I think this is a lesson for all of us that at the end of the day, if you want to get some results on these issues, United States has leverage, has to use it, and in the case of this specific conflict, we should have used it.
- [105:54]
Julian Brave Noisecat
A long time ago.
- [105:55]
Trita Parsi
I'm not just talking about two years ago. I'm talking about 40 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago. If we had used it then, we would not be in this disastrous situation in the first place. And I think, I think it was Aaron Miller, who had been serving six American presidents and Secretaries of state who said that this is unprecedented, that the United States President would dictate to the Israeli prime minister a peace agreement and force them to accept it. Well, that may explain why we haven't seen anything like this in 30 years, because we never tried it.
- [106:24]
Joy Reid
This is the point. And I've always sort of said that in a strange sense, I've always felt that a Republican president had a better shot at getting some sort of a peace than Democratic president. Because most Democratic presidents are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Israel lobby in the United States. They're just all so Zionist that they generally won't do anything really to pressure the Israelis. And the last time I can recall in my lifetime, and maybe I was young, so maybe I don't remember it clearly, was George Herbert Walker Bush being the most to really pressure the Israelis. And then before that, really obviously the one Democrat who tried was Jimmy Carter. But is that a fair assessment that it seems like just shifting to a Republican president for whatever reason, they have more, slightly more of an inclination to be slightly harder sometimes on the Israelis and the Democrats?
- [107:14]
Trita Parsi
I think I'm not entirely sure if that holds up. I mean, you know, on the surface it definitely does look like that. And I do agree with you that a lot of these Democrats have been far too concerned about being on the good side of the Israeli government or the pro Israel lobby in the United States. But we should also remember Obama fought that very same lobby and that's very same Prime Minister Netanyahu on the Iran deal. And most other president would not even have done that. They would be like, it's not worth the political capital. I'm just going to focus on some other issue. So we have seen whether it's Republican or Democrat, it works when you're willing to use your leverage. In the case of Trump, I don't really know if the word Republican is appropriate. Trump is just Trump and someone who at the end of the day does not not accept the idea that he would be bullied by a prime minister of another country. I think he has been at times. I think at times, for instance, what happened this summer with him caving to the Israeli pressure and bombing Iran I think was a huge mistake. But what we see here also is that a couple of months later he can bounce back. And once the Israelis committed a major mistake and what they did was that they bombed Qatar. That was a major overreach and a major turning point. It convinced Trump and folks at the White House that Israel was just becoming too much of a destabilizing factor in the Middle east, creating problems not just for itself for regional powers, but also for the US and combined with that, that over the course of the last couple of months, you've seen the numbers and the standing of Israel in Trump's core constituency, maga, America first, that its standing has just been plummeting and started to become a political liability for Trump himself, which of course is the most important thing for Trump. And here I would like to make another comparison to Biden. Israel also plummeted in its standing with Biden's core constituency and he couldn't care less. He just kept on supporting the genocide. But now when it happened with Trump, because, you know, for him, Trump is way more important than Israel, we saw that he took advantage of this overreach by these regulations, at least put pressure on them. And here we are, we actually have a ceasefire, we have a prisoner exchange. It certainly has to go much further than that. But this is not necessarily a bad start.
- [109:39]
Joy Reid
You know what's so. It's sort of tragic about that, Trita, and you and I have talked about this offline, I will just talk about it online as well, is that, you know, Joe Biden was just like Trump, far more popular with the Israeli street than Bibi Netanyahu. I mean, my understanding is Bibi Netanyahu still gets booed and still got booty. I think even he couldn't even go to Egypt because people were threatening they wouldn't show up. If Bibi Netanyahu came to Egypt for this deal, to sign on this deal, you know, he's super unpopular and he needs the war to stay in power and to hold his crazy right wing group together. But that was true under Biden too. Biden was very popular and probably could have really pushed Bibi hard and gotten away with it. The famine was already started and I've never been able to understand why Biden and he announced at one point, remember he announced the ceasefire and said, we've got it too, and then it fell apart. Have you been able to deconstruct why Biden?
- [110:30]
Trita Parsi
I've spoken to folks who served on this issue with the, with the Biden team, with President Biden, and a lot of thing that comes back is that there were folks in the administration that pushed and tried to present alternatives, etc. But Biden himself would not have it. And that he had this core idea that he was going to leave office with the title of having been the most pro Israel president in U.S. history. Now, why is that even important? Yeah, why is that a price you want? You're the President of the United States, so why would that even be important? Particularly when you're tanking your own constituency, they're turning against you and the party. You say that this entire election was about the survival of democracy, but apparently you being the most pro Israel president was more important. Important than the survival of American democracy according to Biden's own metric. So I think this is ultimately. There's not going to be a satisfactory answer. That is still not shameful. It is ultimately just absolutely shameful what he did here. And we can now see that this could have been done much earlier. In fact, the Biden folks are out there saying they laid the groundwork for this. Well, then why didn't you do it?
- [111:40]
Joy Reid
Just do it. And the thing is, I hate thinking that this conflict is what put us in the position of still having Trump. Of having Trump again. But part of me really. I mean, it was a big part of it. Let me play. This is interesting. So Donald Trump used to say that Qatar was this terrible country. They were bad. They were sanctioning them and everything. But Let me play D5. Jason. He's turned around on them now. He's building a Qatari air base inside the United States, which his base hates. And I just. This was fun. This was Donald Trump on Air Force One talking about qatar. This is D5. They're in the middle of. They are right in the middle of everything.
- [112:16]
Professor Ekal Yanka
Other countries are there, but they're an.
- [112:18]
Joy Reid
Hour and an hour and a half away.
- [112:20]
Professor Ekal Yanka
A big difference. They're literally. You walk over from Iran to Qatar.
- [112:24]
Joy Reid
You can walk it in one second.
- [112:26]
Professor Ekal Yanka
You go boom, boom. And now you're in Qatar. That's tough territory.
- [112:31]
Joy Reid
I think Qatar was amazing, the way they helped us. We have a D6. They don't share a border. They don't share a land border.
- [112:40]
Trita Parsi
Yeah, they don't have a land border.
- [112:44]
Joy Reid
They don't. I mean, they're close.
- [112:46]
Trita Parsi
They're just across the waters in the Persian Gulf. But they don't have a land border.
- [112:50]
Joy Reid
No, no, no, Trump. No. But what do you make of his sudden love for Qatar? Leads me to believe that there's some money in this for him, because there's some money in it for everything Donald Trump does. There's the map, guys. Yeah, yeah. Is this. Is this a business deal? That Donald Trump and his son in law are going to make money from and Qatar? Are they in a business deal here? Is that what this is?
- [113:13]
Trita Parsi
So, you know, without a doubt, the Trump machine has investments in Qatar and Saudi and UAE in many of these different places. But if that is the sole reason, it still doesn't answer the question, why wasn't this done in January and why wasn't it held up in March? So if this is the driving thing, why did he allow the Israelis to do as much damage as they did over the course of the last six months from March till now? So I think it's a factor, and I think there's a desire to perhaps look into it a little bit further and try to perhaps ascribe to it a larger explanatory factor that he has. I'm not dismissing it. I'm just saying that if it was, why now? Why not earlier? The initiatives just stop right away. I think really the answer lies more in the manner in which Israel has just completely plummeted in his own constituency. We have midterm elections coming up in a year, he told Netanyahu. Apparently, according to what he conveyed to Sean Hannity, he told Netanyahu, you cannot continue to fight the entire world. What is he saying with this? He's saying you're getting isolated, you're turning into a pariah. You're asking the United States to constantly bail you out, send you all the weapons for the, for all the wars that you want to fight. And this is costing me a lot. You just can't continue to do this. So I think that is a more critical factor that explains not only the shift, but also the timing of the shift.
- [114:41]
Joy Reid
Trita Parsi, always a pleasure to talk to you. You're so smart on these issues. Thank you very much, my friend.
- [114:45]
Trita Parsi
Thank you so much for having me, Joe.
- [114:47]
Joy Reid
Thank you very much. Thank you. And I will note, by the way, that the United States is also becoming a pariah and we are looking horrific in the world. I don't think we're exactly popular. But anyway, that is an explanation. It is Donald Trump losing Maga, Israel losing Maga and Maga, saying they are not pro Israel and they're not down with the genocide. And so Donald Trump dumped Bibi Netanyahu's position because it's hurting him. It makes sense to me. All right, I think it's time for our moment of joy. What do you think, Jason? I think it is time for our moment of joy. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna play you guys a Moment of joy, which is now, let's do it. This is going to reflect what we saw in the war on America that's being waged by Donald Trump, AKA maybe Beelzebub. And what we've seen that the cities that are responding to Donald Trump are all doing it in their own un unique way. Los Angeles just said, hell no. Fought back the governor of California really pushing in the state of Illinois. They are in these streets. I will note that Chicago business owners have gotten together and said, ICE is not welcome in their restaurants. They would not let Kristi gnome face fall off Barbie pee in their establishments. They're essentially saying, we will lock our doors if ICE comes around. They're basically just refusing them entry to restaurants, to their establishments. They passed an ordinance saying they can't set up in the parks and school parking lots. They've essentially just said, we're freezing y' all asses out. You guys want to be the Gestapo of the modern era? You can't be that in any of our private businesses. They can keep you out in our city parks and our schools, keeping you out. Make. Make them unwelcome, which I actually love. As a strategy, just say ICE not welcome here. Put up a sign, close if you have to. Don't let them eat in your restaurants. Don't let them use your bathroom. Make them pee on the street if that's what they want to do. Because they're acting like damn thugs anyway. They should not be able to have good food and comfortable moments in your city. But it is the city of Portland, Oregon that to me is winning the battle of how to fight MAGA fascism. They're doing it with Joy and they're doing it with furries. Oh, no. But it's not just the frog. Now we've got pikachus giraffes. Is that a Pikachu? We've got pandas. We've got all sorts of fairy tale creatures. Every manner of creature has got. There's a shark. There's a shark that's involved. They're all dancing dads and tifa dads. Dance antifa. Dance with your antifa selves. Your anti fascist boogie. Do your anti fascist boogie. Do it. Dance Antifa Sharks, pandas, raccoons, dance. Thank you. I love it. I love it when they dance. Thank you all for watching the Joy Reed show. We appreciate it. Be sure to subscribe and hit share and hit that notification bell so that you don't miss an episode. Also, please subscribe to Joy's house by heading over to Joann reed.com We appreciate you. Love to the chat. Thanks to everybody who threw a little couple coins in the till. We love y' all and we will see you guys on Wednesday because we got more more more more more. Happy Indigenous People's Day. Hope you guys enjoyed it and that you are if your barbecue happened and it didn't get rained on, tell the Lord thank you and that the devil did not show up. Thanks for watching and we'll see you on the next the Joy Reach.
- [118:17]
Trita Parsi
This.
- [118:18]
Joy Reid
Episode is brought to you by LifeLock LifeLock.
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Trita Parsi
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Joy Reid
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