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- [00:00]
Joy Reid
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- [00:35]
Michael Spees
Okay.
- [00:42]
Joy Reid
Welcome to the Joy Reid Show. When Donald Trump returned to the White House having beat back multiple federal charges after being convicted of felonies in the state of New York, his first official act was to pardon nearly 1600 insurrectionists, including violent convicted felons who beat, Tased and bear sprayed responding police officers on January 6, leaving five of them dead following their injuries, including Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick, who suffered two strokes hours after being bear sprayed by Trump fanatics, as well as four officers who served at the Capitol who died from suicide. That's on top of the four Trump supporters who died that day or soon thereafter of heart attacks, one drug overdose, and one who was shot trying to breach the speaker's lounge with other MAGA fanatics. The message Trump clearly intended to send was that violence in his name was not just acceptable. It's patriotic and a symbol of national devotion, which to Donald Trump is the same as personal devotion to him. Since then, Trump has encouraged more mayhem, or at least looked the other way as violent ICE arrests play out on camera across the country with masked men tackling brown people seemingly everywhere in front of stores and restaurants, at Home Depot and even as they leave immigration court seemingly based solely on the color of their skin, recall that Trump called immigrants scum and claimed that they are poisoning the blood of our country. And in a New York Times piece, aides note that Trump joked about his chief henchman on immigration, Stephen Miller, that if he had his way, this country would have no more than 100 million rather than 350 million people living here, and they would all look like Stephen Miller. A frightening thought indeed. But given the clear racism, ethnonationalism and violent themes of this regime, it should come as no surprise that we have seen a rise in vigilante violence with racist intent. Right wing fears of replacement demonization of immigrants and America's already violent gun culture are a toxic mix. And those ideas have become completely normalized, not just on the right, but inside of the Republican Party. As a candidate, Trump bragged that he did quote nothing on guns during his first term. And he continued to align himself with the gun lobby and its chief arm, the nra. And as president again, he has taken actions that will surely make our violent and volatile political situation worse. In just his first six months as president again, Trump and his on again, off again ally, Elon Musk. Their made up Doge agency has slashed staffing at the Bureau of Tobacco, Alcohol and Firearms. They've cut the number of gun dealer inspectors nationwide and effectively legalized machine guns by agreeing to a settlement in May that will force the Justice Department to not enforce the machine gun ban against any device that functions like a forced reset trigger. The regime even removed a memorial at ATF headquarters that was designed to remind employees of the human toll of gun violence. They also canceled a billion dollars in mental health resources for schools, which has become. Which have become almost routine targets for mass shooters in America. And then last month came the assassination of the former speaker of the Minnesota House, who was shot to death alongside her husband by a Christian nationalist carrying a 9 millimeter handgun and posing as a police officer as he went from house to house, injuring a second Democratic lawmaker and his wife and carrying in his fake police car a hit list of 45 Democratic elected officials, abortion providers, and other targets. Four years before that, authorities in California narrowly avoided a similar fate as a conservative auto repair shop owner named Ian Rogers, who'd amassed an arsenal of some 50 firearms and 15,000 rounds of ammunition, hatched a plot to attack the Democratic Party's California headquarters.
- [05:09]
Michael Spees
So we did find the weapons that you told me about, which I appreciate again. And I know that we've kind of gathered and you've told me that you're kind of a firearms enthusiast, like a lot of us. Are we. When did you start converting the rifles to full auto, or how do you do it? I guess.
- [05:33]
Ian Rogers
I've had that Kalashnikov for many years. Okay. Probably converted, maybe 2010. Okay. And then I built the other ones myself. Okay.
- [05:46]
Michael Spees
I know there's a. Is it M16 in there? Is that one one of the full auto ones?
- [05:53]
Ian Rogers
Yeah, I built that whole gun.
- [05:56]
Michael Spees
Okay. And so I'm a mechanic, so obviously. Yeah, you're good with your hands.
- [06:02]
Ian Rogers
You're good with tools.
- [06:03]
Joy Reid
According to Michael Spees of the Trace, who conducted an in depth investigation in partnership with Rolling Stone, Roger's sister remembers him as not especially political until his lurch into a chillingly common brand of extremism that echoes messaging from the gun industry and the nra.
- [06:23]
Michael Spees
How do you feel about things the way that things are going in the.
- [06:26]
Ian Rogers
Country right now, scared, you know, Democrats taking control. They got the Senate. I'm worried for my children. I really am. How so? Because it seems like the country's going communist. The president of the United States can be censored. What comes next? Yeah, I feel like the media is doing a lot of that. If anybody should be guilty of inciting a riot, I think they are.
- [07:05]
Michael Spees
I feel like that. I mean, especially the way they've treated previous riots, you know?
- [07:11]
Ian Rogers
Yeah, it's just, it just, it's. They show what they want. Yeah. I mean, it's like they said that Trump started, he encouraged his supporters to be. To. To riot. But if you look at the timeline, it's like he gave his. He was giving a speech at 12:53pm and that's when the con. That's when Congress was ransacked, and he finished giving a speech at 1:10pm so how did he incite a riot if he's still speaking and the capital's being under siege? Right. I mean, it was obviously staged. I think there was probably some Trump supporters, but I think there was a lot of undercover, like an AFTA people. That's what I think.
- [07:54]
Michael Spees
Antifa.
- [07:55]
Ian Rogers
Yeah. Okay. An after antifa. However you say it. Yeah, it just, you know, to me, it's just, just, you know, and then they just say, this is horrible. He incited a riot, you know, over and over again. You know, you tell a lie a thousand times, people believe it. So it, you know, perception is reality. So if they just show the writing going on over and over and over again, then people are going to believe that scenario.
- [08:25]
Joy Reid
So Rogers himself is now confined to a federal prison cell and sees himself as a victim of political persecution in the mold of the Trump supporters who stormed the US Capitol during the January 6 attacks. And who benefits most from all of this toxicity? You guessed it, the gun lobby, whose sole purpose is to sell more and more guns and even more lethal guns, regardless of the consequences.
- [08:54]
Ian Rogers
Mostly for me, my guns are just for fun. And it's a. It's a really cool sport, you know, And I like machines, you know, guns are cool machines. They're beautiful, you know.
- [09:07]
Joy Reid
And Michael Spies joins me now. Michael, thanks so much for being here. Tell me about Ian Rogers and this plot that he planned in California.
- [09:15]
Michael Spees
So in late 20, late 2020, early 2021, Ian Rogers, then 44, was living in Northern California, and he and his best friend, basically, over text message, hatched out a series of plans to attack democratic institutions, you know, with pipe bombs, a Variety and, or I should say even an arsenal of firearms with the hope more or less of igniting a civil war and ensuring that Joe Biden, who then obviously won the election, could not take office.
- [09:49]
Ian Rogers
Have y' all been talking anything about the recent events that happened on the 6th? Yeah. All the chaos, all the censorship violations of the First Amendment. Yeah. What did y' all talk about exactly? The First Amendment stuff. And yeah, there's a. I mean, you know, the President of the United States just got censored. I mean, it's just, it's kind of shocking and nobody's really talking about it, you know. Yeah, I think what they're doing is totally legal. I know they're privately owned companies, but when your business model is to allow people to speak and then you censor certain individuals, I just think that's kind of garbage. Yeah, I think if that went to the Supreme Court, I think you'd agree with me. But, yeah.
- [10:44]
Joy Reid
And so this, it, it does ring similar to the January six conspirators. Right. Who were prepared to use violence to make sure that Donald Trump became president again. Do, do in your reporting, are these sort of violent tendencies tied to a love of Trump? Is this part of the MAGA cult or is it something bigger than that?
- [11:05]
Michael Spees
I think it's something bigger than that. Certainly didn't happen in a vacuum. And I think MAGA and Trump really are outgrowths of long running right wing conspiracies that have been embedded in the Republican Party for many years. And one of the chief purveyors of those conspiracies in that way of thinking very much, was the gun rights movement and gun rights supports support groups like the National Rifle association, which had been largely responsible for indoctrinating a relatively small but very militant group of white male Americans in order to keep them in the, you know what I. The gun buying market, I don't know what else to call it, but they sort of. I think the thinking for many years was maybe there won't be any real consequences by telling people that a tyrannical government's going to come and take away their rights and take away their guns. And, and that wasn't true. And Ian Rogers is really not an anomaly as we're seeing.
- [12:10]
Joy Reid
So does this, I mean, I think back to Waco, right. Obviously this was an attempt by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which literally, the current Trump regime has had them take down the mural that was there to remind ATF employees of the horrors of gun violence. They're that sort of radical in terms of just the ideology. But you go back to Waco, that was an attempt by the ATF to enforce gun laws. Right. You can't have stockpile of machine guns. We've now seen that progress to Oklahoma City, progress to the current iteration of the right, where there's a constant belief that you have to keep electing Republicans or the black helicopters are going to come and take your guns. Do you see all of these extremist movements as connected?
- [12:58]
Michael Spees
Yeah, I think they are all connected. And I think that, you know, it's not said enough that the Republican Party, its candidates for elected office, and. And the lawmakers themselves have gone out of their way for decades to exploit this mindset and put these people to use for votes. And then sort of like, the thinking, I think, is that once an election is over, you can kind of move these people off stage and just let them wait in the wings until the next election comes around. At which point it will be time to whip up paranoia and hysteria again, which was like, you know, perhaps most pronounced when Barack Obama was running for office, and then again, arming them to the teeth and somehow thinking that there will be no consequences, which has obviously just been wrong. I mean, Waco, you're bringing up. It's true. I mean, that was. The ATF certainly could have done a. And the FBI, they were part of that, too. Certainly could have done a better job. And it's remembered now as. As like an example of government overreach. And, you know, there's some truth to that. I mean, I think, like, as the famous hostage negotiator talked about, there was an issue about the FBI becoming overly reliant on arms and less reliant on. On, you know, again, negotiate, hostage negotiation, that sort of thing. But it seems to have been completely forgotten that the Branch Davidian compound was. Was filled to the teeth with an army's worth of firearms and that David Koresh was also a cult leader who is carrying out all kinds of unlawful acts within this compound and. And believed, like many people who. Who you could say are cut from the same cloth, that it was basically up to him to save the world and his people. And firearms were a major part of that idea.
- [15:02]
Ian Rogers
A lot of these guys think that, you know, martial arts law is going to be declared okay, if that happens, you know, what do we do? And. But it's just.
- [15:12]
Michael Spees
Yeah, it's like a mental exercise or so.
- [15:16]
Ian Rogers
Well, you know, there's nothing wrong with, you know, like, you know, on January 6th, what was going to happen that day you know, in A lot of people thought that Pence would do the. Reject the electors. Right. But you know, he did what he could and I was a, you know, that was constitutional in what he did. So for what these guys thinking that some miracle was going to happen, it's like, come on, I knew exactly what was going to happen because I follow history, you know. Yeah.
- [15:51]
Michael Spees
So it sounds like you're maybe more grounded than some of them.
- [15:55]
Ian Rogers
No, these guys are all good people. Yeah, I'm a realist. Right.
- [16:00]
Michael Spees
That's what I mean by that.
- [16:01]
Ian Rogers
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, it's like, you know, how could Pence reject the electors like that? This. It's never been done before. Yeah.
- [16:12]
Joy Reid
How does the NRA take advantage of things like great replacement theory, white replacement theory, I guess you could call it, because that really does. Has become normalized inside of the Republican Party. It's sort of normal dogma now is that they have to rid the country of the non white immigrants because there's a plot by, by Jewish conspirators to replace white Christians with brown and black people so that Democrats can win elections. That's a now pretty commonplace belief among Republican voters. And it's spoken by elected officials. How does that, how does the NRA take advantage of that? Because we're now seeing, you know, masked men kidnapping non white people off the streets and folks are not even sure all of those people are cops or ice.
- [17:02]
Michael Spees
Totally. Which is again, also funny. I mean, not funny, but like this is supposed to be the thing that the gun rights movement existed as a, Just to stand as a buffer against. Right. Their whole claim was that a tyrannical government was going to impose martial law and take everyone's rights away. I mean, the. Famously Wayne Lapierre, the NRA referred to them as jackbooted thugs, but obviously they don't care that it's happening right now because it's not happening to them. So obviously that rings hollow. But to your question, I would say the NRA was actually at the vanguard of replacement theory. I don't, I don't know that they were even calling it that at the time. But all of their propaganda going back to the 90s revolved around them telling their members that there is a plot to not just take away your rights, but to wipe away your identity. That the country that you know and love, that belongs to you is being ripped away by communists, Marxists, immigrants, definitely later Muslims. It's, it's, it's, it is. It is in every way meets the definition of selling a notion of replacement, you know, that they're going to be basically wiped out of existence if they don't stand and fight further tribe. And that's, you know, what it is? It's, it's rank tribalism in a very explicit way. I mean, it's not, if you've ever been to an NRA annual meeting that happens every year, it's a confab where like, you know, between 75 and 90,000 members show up. I mean, it is not just one of the whitest events that you could imagine having been to them, but it's also almost, it's like almost entirely male.
- [18:54]
Ian Rogers
Then you got China on the rise. You know, they're like the Japanese back in the 1930s as far as I'm concerned. So they're going to be a problem. So America's definitely on decline, but where do you go? You know, like, I like my Second Amendment. So, yeah, I have the option, like, you know, because my wife's Ukrainian, I could move to the Ukraine or Russia, you know, but then, you know, I don't want to give up my second Amendment. You know.
- [19:33]
Michael Spees
It'S, it's a, you know, as I was saying in the story, right. White men comprise about 30% of the United States population. So obviously significant, not, not a majority. Right. But according to the gun industry's own records, white men comprise the vast majority of gun buyers year in and year out, like around 60%. And that's. So that's, that's more than twice their, their population. While at the same time, we have to remember that it's only a slice of that 30% that is buying guns, since, you know, most white men don't, don't own firearms. So you've just hyper radicalized this small group of men that feels for various reasons, either displaced, they've been told repeatedly that, you know, the elites hate them, that, you know, Obama is a conspiracy against, against, against white men. The Democrats want them gone. You're creating the most combustible possible recipe. Right? I mean, we're just, it's finally like the chickens are coming home to roost right now. That's, that's how I see it.
- [20:43]
Joy Reid
And now we've got the Trump administration reaching this settlement that will essentially stop the Department of Justice from enforcing the ban on selling parts that can turn ordinary rifles into machine guns. You put that on top of the bump stock ruling in the Supreme Court. How concerned, I mean, is your, you've done the journalism on this. We could now have a situation where what happened in Minnesota and What might have happened in California and what's happening at schools all over the country could now be conducted with essentially machine guns.
- [21:22]
Michael Spees
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's this, you're pointing out the exact right thing and I think it just, it is terrifying. And I think that one of the reasons I wrote the story is, is because I want people to understand that who knows how many Ian Rogers there are walking around right now. Right. Like when I, when I was talking about earlier about what percentage of white men, you know, comprise the overall gun market. That's the legal gun market, which is to say, like, it's so just people may not have it. Like it's just all these pe. There's so many men that may have a history of violence, are politically radicalized, have share very similar characteristics to the men in Minnesota or to Ian. And, and you wouldn't know that like just because they passed a background check. Hey, were you planning on hurting anybody.
- [22:21]
Ian Rogers
Or anything like that? Thought about it, you know.
- [22:25]
Michael Spees
Yeah, like, tell me about that.
- [22:29]
Ian Rogers
And what do you mean? I've thought about, you know, fighting against, fighting back against the government, but like I said, it's always when I'm inebriated. Yeah, you wake up and you go, yeah, that's not a good idea.
- [22:49]
Michael Spees
Did you have any specific plans to do that?
- [22:52]
Ian Rogers
Just, you know, just thoughts, you know.
- [22:57]
Michael Spees
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- [23:24]
Ian Rogers
You know, you think about what can you do? I don't want to hurt anybody. You know, I mean, maybe if you could attack the right people, you know, but you don't want to hurt an innocent person. You know, like people like, you know, people that are really causing problems in this world, like George Soros, you know, I mean, you know, it's kind of satisfying thinking about hurting some scumbag like that just because, you know, the guy causes so much chaos and.
- [24:06]
Michael Spees
And, and, and are continuing. And you know, the other important thing is a small percentage of the gun industry's profits come from first time gun buyers. So what they're relying on is people who repeatedly buy guns. So once you're in the market, they need to keep you there and in order for them to make money, the people who are bringing in revenue are the people that you Know, are buying, you know, between 10 and 40 firearms, right? And just, it just, and we're, we've sort of become or just like accepted this situation, but it's just you have like this massive arms and bound society. And all these men, or a lot of them have very common traits, which is like hyper conservative frequently, perhaps like, you know, susceptible to conspiratorial thinking, willing to follow what they perceive to be orders from Donald Trump. There's just, there's. I mean, I don't want to sound overly alarmist, but just like, it doesn't, like what is really keeping us safe from this. It doesn't really feel like anything. Anybody else that you are thinking is a problem that you needed to fan is, you know, in your, in your mind, in your drunken fantasies, take care.
- [25:20]
Ian Rogers
Of, you know, you know, just thoughts about, you know, taking the country back, you know, you know, living according to the Constitution again, you know, that would be nice, you know, but how does one guy do it? You know what I mean? It's a pipe dream.
- [25:49]
Joy Reid
Well, two things. On the one hand, you're also seeing a rise in purchasing. I mean, if the NRA is pushing this messaging to white men that you're under threat and you need to arm up and you need to have 30, 40, 50 guns stockpiled in your home, you're also seeing on the other side, are you not an increase in people on the other side purchasing firearms? I've read statistics that African Americans, Asian Americans, because of all of the massacres, you know, multiple massacres taking place in Asian American communities, are starting to buy. Like, is the NRA sort of winning by losing? I mean, like they were financially bankrupt a couple of years ago. But it seems like the gun lobby is kind of winning, right? Because people on the other side are saying, well, if those right wing white men have guns, we need guns. And so it seems that the gun lobby is kind of winning on all sides.
- [26:40]
Michael Spees
Well, I think it, even if the NRA disappeared tomorrow, it's like it's, it's, it's, it's success has already been sort of embedded in American society. You know what I mean? Like, the, the issue of guns is totally binary, right? It's, it's not like dissimilar, I would say, from abortion. It's just like, you know, Republicans advocate for the most, the most ex, the, the least amount of no restrictions. That's, that's generally like the Republican perspective. And Democrats obviously take the opposite perspective. So the, the idea that, that a party has basically absorbed the NRA's entire platform is, is definitely a success. I mean, I have some. It is true that during COVID especially in 2020, there was uptick in buying for all first time buyers, but especially among minorities. And you know, that includes black men and, and Asians and, and you know, that's, that seems to be legitimate, but, but also then at the same time, according to the industry's research post Covid, there was. It, it sort of, if there was a surge, then it sort of receded and the market sort of went back to the way it was, which is to say dominated by white men. And, and the first time buyers who would come in in this very unusual circumstance, that kind of was just like an anomaly. But either way, yes. I mean, it just, they, they went. You know, if you, if you put the idea that, you know, there's, you know, your, your enemies or people who want to hurt you are super armed, it definitely, it definitely seems like it can trigger people to buy guns. And that all in all seems to benefit that organization in the industry itself. And the question is like, where, you know, where does it end? Like, yeah, at what point will we ever decide that like, this is a completely intolerable, unsustainable situation and we're gonna like, it's not. What, what will be the event that will finally convince people that we've created a, a society that is not really anything that resembles like a contemporary democracy that is the richest country in the history of the world.
- [29:04]
Joy Reid
It's hard to see because, you know, there are similar mental health issues, conspiracy theories all over the world. People, you know, have the same characteristics, but they don't have massacres like we do. I want to ask you about the, the United States military. And I don't know if this is something that you've gone into in your reporting, but you are seeing that Pete Hegseth, as head of the Defense Department, has ended recruiting at things like African American high tech organizations or, you know, you know, organizations that encourage black folks to get into, you know, the technological industries or to get into high tech industries. They've stopped recruiting women, they've stopped recruiting gays, but they, they're really recruiting heavily at NRA events like the ones that you described. What does that mean for our future? Because it seems that Pete Hegseth is trying to absorb the NRA's ethos into the United States military.
- [30:00]
Michael Spees
Well, I'm really glad you asked that because I think that I, I, you know, my perception from the outside one is that that's seems like a really Accurate observation. But two, going back to something we were talking about earlier. You know, at the current moment, we have masked men who may or may not be agents of the United States ripping people off the streets. They just happen to not be white men. And this is like the sort of right wing nightmare that they've been warning about for forever, but they don't care about this. And my feeling, though, I though this was, you know, for what it's worth, I'm not surprised by that. I didn't, I didn't. I never thought that this was like the, the true concern. How'd you start getting into like, all this stuff, all the firearms and, and stuff?
- [30:47]
Ian Rogers
It's always been a gun.
- [30:48]
Michael Spees
Yeah.
- [30:48]
Ian Rogers
So, yeah, I saw you were wearing a. In one of the pictures at the shop, you had a Marine shirt on. You have any ties with the Marines? No, I just, you know, I like the military and stuff. Okay, cool.
- [31:00]
Michael Spees
Yeah. You know, when I was growing up, I was a big military buff too, so I can definitely appreciate that. Was your dad in the military or something?
- [31:08]
Ian Rogers
He was in the Navy.
- [31:09]
Michael Spees
Navy, Right on.
- [31:09]
Ian Rogers
I was in. Maybe. Cool.
- [31:12]
Michael Spees
I think that. And this is what is the scariest thing to me of all, I. I think that those men that are civilian gun owners, but identify with the military and that's why they buy AR15s and similar weapons and buy like that kind of military gear, is that they've always seen themselves as almost an extension of the United States mil, the right wing military. Right. And they see themselves as like a paramilitary or like a civilian police force. You know what I mean? But it's only directed at. I mean, this is sort of what fascism is. Right. It's only directed at people who don't agree with them or, you know, frankly are just like Democrats.
- [31:54]
Ian Rogers
Military stuff's cool because you get really high quality for cheap. Yeah. You know what I mean? If you bought that stuff brand new, extremely expensive, but if you buy a military surplus, it's cheap. Yeah, it is.
- [32:08]
Michael Spees
And so it's not surprising to me at all that he says would Hegseth would recruit from that pool because like, those people have already been thoroughly socialized into the idea that they are, you know, in their own minds that they're civilian soldiers and that there's some kind of greater, you know, cause that they're a part of that that, you know, seems to revolve around being white and male and protecting, like, what that means to be white and American. And it's again, I think it. Again, I, I don't like Being an alarmist person. And I don't think it's very useful. But I do think like, Democratic lawmakers need to like, wake up. Like, it's not, it can't just, like this is not, like, it's truly not sustainable. Like, I don't think people understand, like, it's not, you know, you have the guy showing up at Nancy Pelosi's house with a hammer like that. Just, there's a, there's obviously a trend that's happening here now, sort of concluding, or not concluding, but escalating to what happened in Minnesota a few weeks ago. I, I, I just don't think people fully have reckoned with the fact that you have these highly activated individuals who see themselves as, you know, militant saviors and, and believe that they have the right to do this work, that they have the right to engage in extrajudicial violence and act as vigilantes. And I think that's what, I mean, I, you know, I can only, I don't know what's in Pete Hegseth's mind, but yes, based on the actions that he's taken. Right. I mean, that seems like, seems like it would be a natural affinity for him to, to want to, you know, build a bridge to that, that crowd.
- [33:55]
Ian Rogers
So there's no one else that you fantasized about hurting. I like people like Nancy Pelosi and you know, you know, but I never had any plans to do anything. It's just, you know, like when Obama was in office, I always thought I hated him, you know, you know, in certain respects. Like I like how black people have all the rights afforded to them now and stuff. That's great, you know, but now we're going to the La La land. Now we're, you know, the left is just forcing their weird things on everybody, you know, like transgenderism and, you know, I believe in the Bible and stuff. I don't like that stuff. I mean, somebody could, they should be able to live the way that they want. But just don't force that on me, you know, because I just don't like it. World's running backwards nowadays. It seems like.
- [34:57]
Joy Reid
My exit question to you, Michael, because it is, you know, we say scaring is caring around here. So it is frightening. But I think we have to address it. We have to face it. You mentioned fascism and you know, fascism is often a mix of militancy, racism and religion.
- [35:13]
Michael Spees
Right.
- [35:13]
Joy Reid
What is the connection of right wing, this version of right wing Christianity and this NRA push and this gun lobby push?
- [35:24]
Michael Spees
I mean, I Think the trifecta. I may forget one of them, but you, you see the shirts and you hear the motto all the time. It's. It's God, guns, family. I think that's the. I think those are the main. Meant to, like, that's like those are the three points of the Trident. So, you know, I think it's. That all goes hand in hand. There's this notion, know again, it's. It's. All of the most toxic elements are sort of come together in this stew, which is that there's this belief, one that the right to be a warrior is almost divine and, and required, you know, and to uphold these values that apparently are supposedly come from the Bible or handed down by a higher power. That's mixed in with this notion of traditional conservative values that suppose, you know, that in a. In a mythical way, like held. Held the bonds of society together, you know, you know, the 1950s idea of America where everything was like, really great, wonderful, and, and that there's been an attempt since then, or repeated attempts since then to destroy that notion of America because it's a plot apparently, you know, by communists who want to. Who want to destroy the fabric of the country and that the way that you protect what you have and protect your family and protect society is with. Is with a firearm.
- [36:50]
Ian Rogers
Did the group know that you had a lot of firearms in Amo? Yeah, Py bombs. Well, they, they probably didn't know about the Pythons, but most of the guys, you know, have a supply of weapons and ammunition.
- [37:08]
Michael Spees
Okay, so just like all these, you know, there's a question of, like, what makes people susceptible to this myth. Something that might not be talked about on other media platforms.
- [37:24]
Ian Rogers
Just, you know, it's a kind of like a family community. So if there's a danger, then you warn the rest of the group, you know, whatever. Where do y' all get your information that you would warn everyone to? You know, like last night we were talking about the different vaccines that are available for Covid. And, you know, like, I read some stuff about how Russia is deploying their vaccine to the whole population now, and a lot of the other members of the group didn't know that. So.
- [38:00]
Michael Spees
To the Russian population or.
- [38:02]
Ian Rogers
Yeah, it's been voluntary, but now they're going to make it like mandatory. Gotcha. For the whole. It's going to be. No, it's going to be available for the whole population, so.
- [38:11]
Michael Spees
Available, yeah.
- [38:14]
Ian Rogers
How'd you find that out? I follow RT News. My wife is, like I said, is Ukrainian, so I'm I'm kind of interested with what's going on over there. I have been since 2014. Does she still have family over there? Oh, yeah. She's actually from Crimea. So they got annexed by Russia. So how are they doing over there? They're fine. It's just, you know. Yeah, but at least they're open over there. There's no lockdowns and stuff. Yeah.
- [38:49]
Michael Spees
And. And I think that's, like, a matter of sociological study and speculation. And there's this idea, you know, that as the economy has changed so much since the 90s and the factory jobs that were once plentiful and are no longer, you know, one of the groups that has been left behind, but has also been told how great they are forever is. Is white men. So, you know, there's a need to have some kind of. There's a void, an identity void, and this particular narrative fills that void. This idea that you can be a citizen protector and that you're. You're doing, like, some kind of work for a higher power and a higher cause, that's, you know, it's. Is it largely or entirely? Excuse me? Entirely. Cosplay. Is it like a fantasy? Yes, but that's what makes it so scary, because that's not. I mean, they've. They've totally absorbed this fantasy and are now in the process of acting it out.
- [39:52]
Ian Rogers
You said the zone that y' all were in. What. What does that mean? The states split up into so many zones. You know, there's like, zone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Yeah. What zone is your group in? I'm zone 4. And is that like all of California or. No, it's like a. If you just go online and look up 3%. I mean, on Wikipedia, it'll tell you everything. You know about all this stuff. Actually, yeah, I've looked some of it up, but I haven't found out the zones yet. It just stays broken up and kind of like real estate sections. Right. From, you know, certain point A to point B, and then that's that zone. Okay, so is zone for California and neighboring states? No, it's like I said, the state is split up into sections. Yeah. So just depends where you live. Yeah.
- [40:56]
Joy Reid
It's scary stuff, but I'm glad that you are on top of it because we do need to have this kind of journalism and reporting so that we can face it. Michael Spies, your reporting is available in the Trace, thanks to Rolling Stone, and we will post it. We're going to make sure that we put a link up to your piece so that people can read it and we gotta face it. Thank you very much Michael. Much appreciate your time. The article is entitled White, Legally Armed and Primed for Political Violence. It's available right now on the trace.org you will find find the link to the article right here below or on the Joyous House substack@joann reid.com now. Be sure to give it a read and also hit the like button below so that we know that you enjoyed this content and can provide you more of it. And please do subscribe to this channel as well. More than 7 in 10 people who watch this YouTube channel are not subscribers, so let's improve that number right now. So subscribe to the Joy Read show and also share this channel, the Joy Reid show, which also can be found@thejoyreadshow.com and consider becoming a TJRS member or a readers member so that you can participate in exclusive Members Only group chats and get other cool memories. We appreciate you joining us and we will see you on the next Joy.
- [42:12]
Ian Rogers
Re Getting back to the basics grassroot.
- [42:15]
Michael Spees
Level, let me dig a little deeper with the shovel.
- [42:27]
Ian Rogers
Clear. I got a bone to pick.