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The Joy Reid Show
Michael Cohen on Trump/Epstein, a Tennessee Holler, and Starving Gaza | The Joy Reid Show LIVE!Jul 30, 2025
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- [00:01]
Joy Reid
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- [02:07]
Donald Trump
Epstein has a certain reputation, obviously. Just curious, were some of the workers that were taken from you. Were some of them young women?
- [02:17]
Joy Reid
Some of them young women?
- [02:18]
Donald Trump
Well, I don't want to say, but everyone knows the people that were taken. And it was the concept of taking people that work for me is bad. But that story's been pretty well out there. And the answer is yes, they were young women. What did they do in the spa? Yeah, people that work in the spa are great sports. One of the best spas in the world in Mar a Lago. And people were taken out of the spa, hired by him. In other words, gone. And other people would come and complain. This guy is taking people from the spa. I didn't know that. And then when I heard about it, I told him, I said, listen, we don't want you taking our people. Whether it was spa or not spa. I don't want him taking people. And he was fine. And then not too long after that, he did it again. And I said, out of here.
- [03:11]
Michael Cohen
Mr. President, did one of those stolen.
- [03:14]
Joy Reid
You know, persons that include Virginia Mury?
- [03:20]
Donald Trump
I don't know. I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people he. He stole her. And by the way, she had no complaints about us, as you know. None whatsoever.
- [03:38]
Joy Reid
Huh. Yeah. So here's the problem, Donald. Actually, Virginia Giuffre is the only person that we know of who was both abused and trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein. And by the way, she was 14 when she was so called. Taken from working as somehow an employee of some kind at the spot at Mar A Lago. She's the only person that we know that was both abused and trafficked by Epstein and was a former Trump employee. She's the only one. She was also the first Epstein victim to come forward and the most vocal. Now, I want you to listen to this video of the late Ms. Dufrey, who took her own life this April, talking about, I was recruited at a.
- [04:18]
Michael Cohen
Very young age from Mar a Lago and entrapped in a world that I didn't understand.
- [04:27]
Joy Reid
So what did Donald Trump know about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes and when did he know it? They supposedly fell out prior to Epstein's first arrest in 2006, supposedly over a real estate deal. Meanwhile, Donald Trump is apparently seriously considering a full pardon for the diddler. Here's a picture of them, two of them together in 1997. According to page six. He's considering pardoning him. Very seriously considering. Why would he do that? It's kind of a weird thing to say that you're going to do, given what he was convicted of, which was trafficking women for prostitution, which weirdly enough, is the same thing Jeffrey Epstein was convicted of in 2008, same exact crime, only in Florida. Also weird, right? Given the fact that. That Trump has also made noises about maybe pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, who's the woman convicted of essentially pimping young, impoverished women like Virginia Giuffre to Jeffrey Epstein. And this after Ghislaine Maxwell, remember whose father, Robert Maxwell, was a notorious Mossad agent? Allegedly after this lady met with the DOJ to talk about whatever it is she knows about, all the things and allegations that her camp that her family lawyers, et cetera, per Michael Wolf, may have been the source of the leak to the Wall Street Journal about that super special 50th birthday book for Epstein that Donald Trump supposedly drew a naked lady and used his marker signature as the pubic hair for. For Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday. All weird things. And join me now to talk about all of those things is Michael Cohen, who was Trump's personal attorney for many, many years before his conscience caused him to speak out about Trump's dirty business dealings in 2019, after which he became the first victim of Trump's political prosecutions under Bill Barr. The same Bill Barr who was the Attorney General of the United States when Jeffrey Epstein supposedly died by committing suicide. The same William Barr whose father originally hired Jeffrey Epstein to teach math at a cushy private high school in Manhattan. Michael has got a great podcast out on Substack, very popular podcast called the Michael Cohen Podcast, which you should subscribe to tonight. He's also the author of a number of bestselling books, including Revenge How Donald Trump weaponized the U.S. department of Justice. Michael, my friend, thanks so much for being here.
- [06:57]
Michael Cohen
Hey, my joy, it's been a while.
- [07:02]
Joy Reid
It's been too long, Michael. I hope you're keeping well. And, you know, it's interesting. I'm so glad that you texted me the other day and we hadn't, as you said, talked in a while. I've been really focused on doing this PODC and had my head down, but I had been thinking about you and had been concerned about you because of all the threats that Donald Trump has been leveling at various people. I think recently he's thrown in Oprah and Beyonce and whoever else.
- [07:26]
Michael Cohen
Reverend Al.
- [07:32]
Joy Reid
Exactly. And, you know, and our mutual friend, Reverend Al Sharpton. And he's sort of spouting off, but really because he's freaked out about this Epstein stuff. But you've already experienced what it looks like when Donald Trump actualizes his threats. So I just want to start out by asking, how are you doing? And what is, you know, your level of concern at this point because you are so vocal?
- [07:54]
Michael Cohen
Well, my. I don't really have a level of concern anymore. You know, after doing prison time, you sort of don't think about much. And while I'm back, you know, now, of course, with my wife, I mean, it's never been a problem. We're married 31 years. I have my two children with. My relationship has not changed with them. I would say more than 90% of all of my Close friends, remained close friends. We did lose some, you know, we have a handful that are members of Mar a Lago have invited, you know, us to go there for various different events, which we thank them, but we respectfully decline. I'm actually, you know, I'm not going to stop speaking my truth. I'll tell you the part that sort of joy bothers me the most. You know, I've been very vocal. I've gone on many, many television shows and they asked me questions about Jeffrey Epstein. They asked me many questions about Donald Trump and young girls, children. They asked me many questions about lawsuits that have taken place. And the part that I find disturbing and it dismays me tremendously is people on both sides of the aisle. And I'm talking more now to my fellow Democrats and by the way, to those same people. I've been a Democrat basically my entire life. 1987, I started working for Congressman Joe Moakley of Massachusetts, you know, when I was in College, for 87 and then 88. What bothers me the most is that they don't even do a scintilla of research. Michael, you must know about this payoff that allegedly took place in 1990. Well, with all due respect to 1990, I was in law school. All right. Oh, you must know about this one. Yeah, that took place in 1988. I was graduating high school. Well, what about the one in 2001? Yeah, what about it? I was right. At that point in time, I was working for myself. I had a massive transportation and real estate company that I built. So I wasn't even in Trump's orbit. I didn't come into Trump's orbit until 2005. All right, which is at that point in time, I was at a major, major law firm here in New York as a partner and was doing outside work for Trump. I became the executive vice president and special counsel for Donald in 2007. And as I stated to many of the different moderators of these shows, to many journalists and sub stackers and show hosts like yourself, my joy, I never saw Jeffrey Epstein in the office. I never heard Donald speaking to him. I never met Jeffrey Epstein personally. I never spoke to him, never texted him, never emailed, never had any communication. I'm not even sure if I've ever even been. Despite being a real local guy and we live relatively close to one another. I never met him. I never, I don't even think I was in a restaurant at the same time as him. I wouldn't know, but I have no idea. So when they ask Me. And they say, well, Cohen, you need to spill all the truth. Let me be very clear. My truth is not designed to attain your applauds or your clickbait. Mine. My journey is to tell the truth. Because as I continue to do that, the truth always rises, as Buddha said. Right? The truth always rises. And we will one day, and hopefully soon find out everything that we need to know about this Epstein file, because I do ultimately believe that. That Trump and his administration and the DOJ and Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche will have no choice but to release the file unredacted in its entirety, except, of course, for the names of the victims.
- [12:27]
Joy Reid
And I'm so glad that you gave us that timeline, because you're absolutely right. I think that people are conflating a lot of different eras. I just showed the 1997, you know, Diddy Puffy video, you know, photo with Trump in that era in the 1990s. And as you said before, you were involved. Donald Trump knew a lot of celebrities, including a lot of black celebrities, and he would have them party with him at Mar A Lago. This was like a common thing. And Donald Trump knew Jeffrey Epstein in that era for sure. So maybe we might want to ask the diddler what he knows about what was going on, because he's the one who maybe is going to get a pardon out of all of this. And so the reality is, is that for you, though, the era in which you were working for Donald Trump is around the time when Melania Trump comes into the picture. When you're seeing Donald Trump getting close to getting the Apprentice. Right. This is close to when he gets the Apprentice, which he gets.
- [13:25]
Michael Cohen
No, no.
- [13:25]
Joy Reid
When I was there, he was already Jeffrey Epstein.
- [13:28]
Michael Cohen
No, no, no. When I was there, he was already on the Apprentice.
- [13:30]
Joy Reid
Okay, so. Oh, right, he had the Celebrity Apprentice.
- [13:32]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [13:35]
Joy Reid
Okay. Got it. Perfect. Okay. So you're in that early Apprentice era, when Donald Trump is really exploding as sort of a national celebrity, really, because he had been like, a New York celebrity, and he'd been here and there. But the Apprentice is what really kind of built his brand. But one of the questions that people have had specifically about Melania, and I don't know what you know about this, because I don't know how involved you were in this aspect of sort of his world, is that Melania kind of comes into his life in a way that makes you literally look at how Trump was dealing with women. Let's set aside Jeffrey. It's hard to set aside Jeffrey Epstein, but for a moment, Donald Trump himself ran a modeling agency that only closed in 2017. He apparently represented Paris Hilton in that agency. He was around John Casablancas, who was accused credibly of preying on the models who were at Elite Modeling Agency, or which was the agency where Ivanka was represented from the time she was 14 years old. He was around the guy who founded Karen Models, who was also credibly accused of preying on the very young models who were signed to Karen Models and who allegedly killed himself in France as he was being accused of sexual predation. You see where I'm going with this, Michael? Even if you say, okay, Donald Trump, I don't know what he knew about what Jeffrey Epstein was doing, but I would love you to talk about what Donald. Donald Trump's own behavior, his own behavior in that era, to me, is something that. It's interesting when you put it in the context of him being besties with a pedophile for 15 years.
- [15:09]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. I mean, during that period of time, you're right. Trump Model Management, I saw the closure of wasn't a successful modeling agency. They basically would use the women or the girls from. Whether it was Miss Teen usa, Miss USA or Miss Universe. They would be part of that. Trump Model Management. But remember, I believe that the marriage between Donald and Melania occurred in 2005, and that's around again the time that I just started to enter his orbit in terms of the fighting, the litigation and so on, that took place between himself and a board on a building that he had developed. So, you know, I know the gentleman that you're referring to who took his own life, Jean Luc, you know, there all sorts of rumors and stories about that as well. You know, the one thing that Trump does is he. He actually hurts himself making comments that if he would just take a pause or one of his enablers would engage him, as I used to, in conversation, so that you keep him on a right track in terms of the thing he says when he would say things, as he did about if Ivanka wasn't his daughter, you know, he would date her, you know, making comments about going backstage at, you know, the pageants, and the models would be naked and so on, which is something that he talked about on Howard Stern. A lot of the stuff that he says, he says for shock value. Now, I don't understand that concept. It's not my nature. It certainly is his. But I was one of three people who Donald Trump had on the board of directors for the Miss Universe organization. There was only three. Donald himself, the cfo, Allen Weisselberg, and me, by the way. All three felons, by the way, which I think is interesting, since we're talking about this as a. Yeah, I guess as a bad thing. Right. The three of us were the board. And I would travel with him for these pageants. Mostly I did. I wasn't able to go to the one in Russia, which is where so much is alleged to have occurred with, you know, the tapes and so on, none of which has ever surfaced. And I looked for them, not because they were legitimate, because I wanted to find out if they were or weren't. Putting that aside, I, too went backstage at the various different pageants. Ms. Ms. USA, I never went to. I don't think I ever went to a Miss, a Miss Teen, but Miss usa, Miss Universe. And I went backstage because we would go to the office that was there, which had photos of each and every one of the girls. And there were certain rules and things that he. He was permitted to do. But let me be very clear, all right? I never saw a girl naked. I never saw any of the contestants even in their underwear or bra. I never even saw any of them in their bathing suits. I did see some of them in Miss Universe bathrobes and so on while they were getting their hair done. I have no clue what was or what was not under the bathrobes. But putting all that aside, I don't even believe that Trump actually saw it. I believe he was saying it for a shock value on Howard Stern. The problem with doing something like that, some of the comments he's making, like even the most recent one, which was, you know, I never had the privilege of going to Epstein's Island. We all can agree, regardless of what side of the aisle that you are on, that it is not a privilege to go to an island with underage children, all right, for the purpose of engaging in sexual relations with them. I mean, there's no privilege to that. Why he used that type of language, why he went to the back on Air Force One to engage the media with when you know what they're going to be asking you, makes no sense to me. If I was still in his orbit, I would have put my arm around his waist, held him back and said, boss, you can't go back there. All right? These are the questions that they're going to answer. And every time that you say something, you stir more controversy, more conspiracy theories where none exists. And if your intent, which we know it is, is to put an end to this conversation, how about just stop talking about it? Stop giving people reason to have more and more conspiracies.
- [20:30]
Joy Reid
But the question is why he can't stop and why he does things that seem to make it even more suspicious. The idea that you would pardon Puffy.
- [20:42]
Michael Cohen
Why?
- [20:43]
Joy Reid
Why, given what we've learned through that trial, what he was doing to Cassie and other women, why would you talk about pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell and saying you wish her well? All very strange things to do. And I'll ask you one other question, Michael, because another Michael, that we had on this show, Michael Wolf has said that when Jeffrey Epstein in 2016 had a conversation with that I believe Jeffrey Epstein's brother has also said he was a witness to and that Michael Cohen either got from the brother or witnessed himself, that Jeffrey Epstein apparently went into his vault or went into his, you know, safe and took out photographs, maybe Polaroids that, that, according to Michael Wolf, contained pictures of Donald Trump with very young women. No one can determine what age they were, but apparently in some compromising looking positions and apparently a photo per Michael Wolf with a stain on his pants. And that apparently Jeffrey Epstein said to his brother, and maybe to Michael Wolf, if what's in my vault were to become public, they'd have to cancel the election, indicating, per his brother, that he had dirt on Donald Trump. And one other piece is that there is an allegation floating around out there which again, I cannot confirm. I have not done this due diligence myself. So I'm not going to say it's factual. I'm going to say it is coming from this world of reporting that we're seeing from the Miami Herald, from Michael Wolf and others, that according to Jeffrey Epstein's brother, he says he had something on him and that the timeline of Jeffrey Epstein first being accused, and I've read through that case, which is repulsive and gross, that first accusation in 2006 followed Donald Trump and him getting in a fight over a piece of real estate. Jeffrey Epstein wins, gets the real estate, and then not long after that, he gets reported by someone think Trump did it.
- [22:45]
Michael Cohen
So I don't think the timeline.
- [22:47]
Joy Reid
What do you think? Could be that. Could be.
- [22:49]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. I don't think the way that you're describing it is accurate because I too, had Michael Wolf on my Mayor Culpa podcast and we had the same conversation. In fact, there was something that he advised me on that I was completely unaware. What Michael Wolf explained to me as told to him by Jeffrey Epstein is what caused the termination of the relationship. Was actually Jeffrey more so even than Donald? Here's the reason why there was a piece of real estate in Palm beach that, that Jeffrey Epstein wanted to purchase. It was a nice piece of property on the water in Palm beach, very close to Mar a Lago, and it was in foreclosure. He advised Donald about this piece of property because obviously Donald, being a real estate magnet, knows a lot about real estate and he wanted his advice on it and how to navigate through these foreclosures with the bank and so on. It was actually Donald who won out on the bid. In fact, what I learned is that the property that they're referencing was the property two years later, in 2007, 2008 that I was involved with, that was sold to the Russian oligarch Dmitry RoboLoviev for 95 million. Purchase price was 40 million. Now, here's something that I ultimately learned as well, that the individual who lost the property had actually bought that property from Les Wexner, who is the, you know, who is one of, let's just say Jeffrey's major backers. That the 60 plus million dollar townhouse that Jeffrey was living in was gifted to him for $1 by none other than Les Wexner. So, you know, let me be very clear here. Jeffrey wanted that property. Donald came in, he pulled the Trump on him and, and he ended up with the property that supposedly was the beginning of the end of the relationship. Now all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Donald comes up with this new theory that he's now the hero of the story, that he fired or he got rid of Jeffrey from Mar A Lago because Jeffrey was a creep, that he was stealing the these young girls that were working for Mar A Lago Spa at the time. Well, this is all new information that's coming out. It's information that is neither corroborated by anybody nor at least until this point, with no documentary evidence, no photos, no anything like that, other than we do know that Virginia Giuffre, she worked at Mar A Lago. So here's the problem with the statement that Donald makes. And again, if I was in the orbit, I would have advised him not to come out with that statement. Let's assume, hypothetically, Virginia Giuffre worked for you. We'll acknowledge that. We'll acknowledge that Jeffrey Epstein stole her from Mar A Lago. In employ. Well, you must have known about Jeffrey's proclivity. Why did you allow it to happen? Right? I mean, you clearly knew what was happening or you may have suspected it was your comments that said Jeffrey liked the girls on the younger Side, why not step in? Why not do something which is what one would anticipate that an adult, or at least a boss would do. Why would you let her even go there, knowing what you know? And that, to me, is the downside of making these off the cuff statements. Now, I get what he was trying to do here. He wants to put himself out there as the hero of the story. Unfortunately, that's not how it plays out.
- [27:28]
Joy Reid
Especially since Virginia Giuffre, after she left Mar? A Lago employ, was then trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein, and in her own words, used essentially as a sex slave internationally to international clients of Jeffrey Epstein. So you saved her from nothing. In fact, you delivered her. In fact, if you knew, as you said, she was being quote, unquote, stolen, you certainly didn't object in a way that helped her at all. And he said different employees were taken. Well, which other employees? Journalists should then start asking, well, which other employees were taken? Because that's one that we know was trafficked. Who else worked for you that wound up working for Jeffrey Epstein? He, as you said, he's begging more questions. I want to ask you one question that's a bit more personal to you because your daughter has talked about sort of the weird kind of ways that Donald Trump interacted with her. Her. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
- [28:18]
Michael Cohen
Well, I wrote about it, actually, in my book Disloyal. In fact, she went on CNN and discussed it. I was there. We were standing in an area that was outside of the front gate at Trump National Bedminster, in front of this pool which is just adjacent to the tennis courts. And my daughter was coming off the, the tennis court and she was wearing one of those white skirts with, you know, with one of the tennis tops and so on. And Trump looked at me and he said to me, he goes, do we not have the best looking members in this club? What a piece of ass. I turn around and I said to me, boss, that's Samantha, that's my daughter. So he turns around, he goes, oh, shit, when did, when did she get so beautiful? I said, well, she was born beautiful. She looks like her mother. Right? You know, and let me, let me say it was definitively inappropriate.
- [29:24]
Joy Reid
Sorry. How old was she at the time?
- [29:26]
Michael Cohen
15. She was 15 years old.
- [29:30]
Joy Reid
Wow.
- [29:32]
Michael Cohen
You know, but, you know, look, there are many statements that have been made over the years regarding women by Donald. Good ones, bad ones, horrific ones. But I think we have to stay focused on the allegations versus the reality. You know, somebody can say stupid things and not cross the Line to illegality. And I bring up the point. Trump made a very overt statement the other day on Air Force One. And I think it needs to be noted when he said, and it's not the first time, it's actually the third over a period of two days. So saying it again repetitively, there's a reason he wants to get that statement out. And the statement he made was again, that he was never on Epstein's Island. Right. And that was not just said once. It was said, I think two or three times. There's a reason why he's saying it, because I do believe that he was never on Epstein's island. Now people saying, fuck you, Michael, bullshit. You know, you're on the payroll, you must be back, you're scared. He, he must be coming at you. That's not true. I'm merely stating a fact. Knowing Trump as I do, which is probably greater than anybody else, which is what made my interview with Michael Wolf so incredible. Because few people know Jeffrey Epstein like Michael Wolf does, and few people, if anybody knows Trump as I do, the two of us together. But the point I'm making here is, is he knows that that fact is going to come out. And down the road he will use that fact to exonerate himself from any, from anything that could be in that file that would implicate him in any way, shape or form. Because I don't believe that Trump was with any of these young girls in a sexual way. I just don't believe it. Could I be wrong? Maybe? Do I believe I'm right? Yes. Right. I wasn't there. I have no firsthand knowledge. And so I don't like to talk as a former lawyer and I will get my license back hopefully soon. But as a lawyer, I try to delve into actual facts, things that, for example, you know, there's documentary or corroborating testimony to back it up. Because anybody could throw out a conspiracy theory. And you know, Joy, I don't have to tell you the problem with conspiracy theorists. They're never satisfied with the answer.
- [32:34]
Joy Reid
So then my final exit question to you, Michael, and I appreciate you giving us all this context. I think it's so key to get this personal information. As you said, few people know Trump like you do. What could then knowing Trump as you do, be the motive for what really feels like a cover up of whatever is in those files? If Donald Trump is blameless in the crimes or did not have knowledge of the carnal crimes being committed by his best friend for 15 years, why cover it? Up. Why offer to immunize or. Or grant immunity to. To Gillian Ghislaine Maxwell? Why sue Rupert Murdoch over this birthday book? Just admit you were in the birthday book. Just admit you signed the book. Why does he seem to be covering up everything related to Epstein?
- [33:26]
Michael Cohen
Joy, that, my friend, is the billion dollar question. It makes no sense to me. You know, I was also on various different news stations talking about the Epstein 50th birthday card. Let me be very clear on two things. One, Donald Trump is not a doodler. One, he doesn't keep paper on his desk, nor does he have a computer on his desk. It's basically he gets pieces of paper, faxes or, or printouts from his. From one of the secretaries or somebody. He responds on those back and forth. That's how he does his business. I've never seen him in the dozen and a half years that I worked for him, I've never seen him doodle once. I've never seen him take a pen to a piece of paper and actually just draw even lines like circles or squares or whatever it is. Trump is not a drawer. He's not an artist.
- [34:25]
Joy Reid
But he sold doodles like he actually. But he actually sold doodles like he actually sold and signed pictures.
- [34:33]
Michael Cohen
Well, he didn't sell the doodles. They donated them to charity. So she. So let me.
- [34:39]
Joy Reid
Charity. But he made them.
- [34:40]
Michael Cohen
If I. Right. But if I can turn around and sort of tell you what I believe, and I'm. I'm. I can tell you I'm almost 100% certain that I'm accurate. His girls that worked for him as executive assistants, every single one of them was an amazing artist, some of whom are just off the charts. I mean, phenomenal. Many of the signatures that you get, whether it was on a hat or a golf ball or a tie, the secretaries did it. Because you don't really think that Trump was sitting there signing a thousand golf balls, all right, or thousands of these hats. So somebody sent him a. Well, let's say Ghislaine sent him a paragraph and he gave it, or Rona gave it to one of the girls and said, do something here that you think matches with the context of the verbiage that's in it. They came up with this sort of design. He did sign his name on it, and he probably colored in some lines so that he could turn around and say that he actually did it right. Like the skyline of New York, the buildings in New York. He probably just went like this with, with his black Sharpie. That's probably what Happened. Is it his? No more than it was Erte. Right. Who signed his name to a bunch of sculptures that he didn't even produce. Right. I mean, it happens all the time. It was for a charity. Nobody at the time even thought that he was going to be running for president, let alone be a president twice. And so that's probably what happened. Why? Again, because you're asking the billion dollar question. Why in the world are they not just dropping the file unredacted in its entirety except for the victim's names? I have no idea. And why he keeps saying things that make him appear to be more guilty? I don't know that either. It's bad communication by his enablers. It's bad advice by these same people. And I'm going to tell you, they're. They're pushing him down a hole that it's not benefiting him at all. Even his own MAGA base are beginning to turn against him.
- [37:08]
Joy Reid
Yeah. Michael Cohen, we've kept you way over time, my friend. Thank you so much. There it is. You have given us the information. We can take that in and we can think it out and ruminate on it. And I am going to keep asking that question. Why the COVID up? Why? Why? Why? Michael Cohen, thank you, my friend. I appreciate you. Be well.
- [37:24]
Michael Cohen
Thank you.
- [37:28]
Joy Reid
Thank you very much. I want to let everybody know that's in the chat right now. We are traveling. We are in the. We are in the Rocky Mountains. We are in the foothills of Colorado. So the WI fi is janky, janky, janky. So please be patient with us as far as the WI FI signal is concerned. That is why it looks a little choppy over here. So. But we can hear fine. As long as you guys can hear what's going on. That's what's most important. Okay, let's do a turn here. I'm going to. I'm going to turn this conversation. You guys can continue in the chat to talk about what you just heard from Michael Cohen, what you think about it, and we're going to keep on that story. But I want you to take a look at this video. Now, what you're going to watch, what you're going to see is Representative Justin Jones, you will remember, represents constituents in the Nashville, Tennessee area being denied entry to a hearing. And the hearing is on whether Elon Musk is going to get to expand AI plant in a part of Tennessee, in the Nashville area where it is going to pollute the air and water of Representative Jones constituents. Here's that video.
- [38:25]
Justin Jones
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:26]
Joy Reid
Let's step back out here for.
- [38:27]
Michael Cohen
Just let everybody come through.
- [38:34]
Justin Jones
In this airport where we are as my district.
- [38:35]
Michael Cohen
I understand.
- [38:39]
Justin Jones
Casey Sellers, the governor's comms person.
- [38:41]
Michael Cohen
Okay.
- [38:42]
Justin Jones
And that's who I might call to let morals come in.
- [38:44]
Michael Cohen
Okay.
- [38:44]
Justin Jones
What is your name, sir?
- [38:45]
Michael Cohen
Hey.
- [38:45]
Joy Reid
I'm Nathan Butchman.
- [38:46]
Justin Jones
What is your role?
- [38:46]
Michael Cohen
So I work with Altitude Ventures.
- [38:48]
Justin Jones
Is this a part of the state of Tennessee?
- [38:50]
Michael Cohen
I understand what you're saying. It is, definitely.
- [38:52]
Justin Jones
Can you hold on for just one second? I'm here. My oversight capacity.
- [38:54]
Joy Reid
I know.
- [38:55]
Michael Cohen
I know.
- [38:55]
Justin Jones
I was elected to represent the people. 75,000 people who live on Murphy's Gr. Who live around the airport.
- [39:00]
Michael Cohen
I'm responsible for the list, and I'm just trying to be respectful to my role. That's all. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to.
- [39:04]
Justin Jones
You as a representative of this district. Are you saying that I cannot go to this event?
- [39:07]
Joy Reid
No, no.
- [39:07]
Justin Jones
I'm not saying it has to do.
- [39:08]
Michael Cohen
With you being a representative. I'm just saying I just need to check the list and make sure.
- [39:12]
Joy Reid
I'm not being rude.
- [39:12]
Justin Jones
I want you to.
- [39:13]
Donald Trump
I know who you are, and I respect you.
- [39:15]
Joy Reid
I've talked to you before.
- [39:15]
Michael Cohen
We've met.
- [39:16]
Justin Jones
I have not met you, sir.
- [39:17]
Michael Cohen
Tell me your last name.
- [39:18]
Justin Jones
This is a representative who doesn't even live in the district. This is one of the state centers who does not live in this district. So if you allow somebody from Knoxville to. And not a resident of a natural.
- [39:25]
Michael Cohen
Who.
- [39:25]
Justin Jones
This airport is in my district, and that is.
- [39:27]
Joy Reid
I hear what you're saying.
- [39:28]
Justin Jones
She said she's on.
- [39:29]
Peter Beinart
Just make sure I've got the. And my husband's.
- [39:35]
Joy Reid
Okay, thank you. Thank you. Just.
- [39:39]
Michael Cohen
Excuse me, sir.
- [39:43]
Joy Reid
This is a private event. Sir.
- [39:44]
Justin Jones
This is my district, and if we. If we allow us.
- [39:46]
Joy Reid
A private event.
- [39:47]
Justin Jones
This is. This is about a public partnership. Murfreesboro pike is in my district. This airport's in my district.
- [39:52]
Joy Reid
Sir, this is a private event. I should not let you through. Can we. Can we go talk?
- [39:58]
Justin Jones
She wasn't on the list.
- [39:59]
Joy Reid
She is on the list.
- [39:59]
Donald Trump
Didn't even look like your name was on the list.
- [40:01]
Michael Cohen
That's because I filled in for.
- [40:02]
Peter Beinart
The lieutenant governor was on the list.
- [40:04]
Michael Cohen
Yes, she. Yes, he was.
- [40:05]
Justin Jones
I saw the phone in your. Can you show me. Can you show me on your phone?
- [40:08]
Joy Reid
If you'll come with me, I'll sit.
- [40:09]
Michael Cohen
And talk to you.
- [40:09]
Justin Jones
Why is Cameron second while he doesn't represent this district?
- [40:12]
Donald Trump
Cameron, do you think they should let Jones in? It's his district. Their event Isn't this a state project?
- [40:17]
Joy Reid
Isn't that why you're here?
- [40:19]
Justin Jones
Republican lawmakers are being allowed.
- [40:24]
Joy Reid
And joining me now, as you can see on your screen, is Representative Justin Jones. I want to start by asking you, and this is one of those ways in which new media is just different from other media. I literally saw that clip earlier today, put it on my Instagram because that seemed outrageous. And then within a couple of hours, I was texting with you and asking you if you could come on and talk about it. Tell us who, if you know, was denying you entry to a hearing about what's going to be built in your district as well.
- [40:56]
Justin Jones
So Joy is always an honor to join you. And I'm actually sitting in front of where they're going to be voting on giving this land tomorrow to Elon Musk Company, the boring company. And I was here looking at it and they've already set up, the company's already set up. And I'll tell you about that later. But on Monday, I tried to go to the airport in my district to attend the public announcement in partnership with the state of Tennessee about this Tesla tunnel that's going to be running from Nashville, my district, under Murfreesboro pike, to downtown. My constituents will be impacted by this. And lobbyists were at the table and stopped me from coming in. What I saw in there were lobbyists. The particular company is called Alliance Venture Capital Firm. It's a venture capitalist firm and they are part of this project. And they stopped me as a lawmaker from getting to get information for my constituents and asking questions on their behalf about how this project that has been rushed through and steamrolled through will impact their day to day lives.
- [41:52]
Joy Reid
So what you're saying is a private corporation can deny the elected representative of the very district where they want to build a polluting plant that they can deny entry to an elected official? That doesn't seem like that could be legal.
- [42:06]
Justin Jones
I mean, this is, this is unprecedented. From what I've heard from other colleagues about, you know, usually when an event happens in your district, state lawmakers, especially a state event, are given the courtesy and the collegiality to attend and to hear and to be a part of that, that process. This is the first time that a lot of my colleagues have told me, even Republicans said that this is very unusual and not the norm, but it's showing us that this is a shady deal, that Elon Musk is somebody who thinks that he's above government and our governor here is in partnership with him. It was Actually the governor's office who ordered for me to also not be allowed in. And then lobbyists were the ones that physically blocked me as well as the police who they called to threaten to say that I was trespassing at a public meeting involving my constituents, involving a state resources and a state deal. And so it just shows us that our government has been co opted and it's been captured by these corporate interests like Elon Musk. And the Boring Company has had a history of harmful behavior to the environment, a history of harmful behavior to its workers. Other cities have stopped its project and it's been a failure. And yet they want to use our people here in Nashville as guinea pigs for this corporate, you know, this corporation seeing our community as a playground and something to be experimented on. Something that is not in the interest of my constituents and something that no Nashville I've talked to supports.
- [43:27]
Joy Reid
So as you viewers take a look at this, just remember we've now had a private prison company being able to determine whether the mayor of Newark, New Jersey could inspect that facility. And three members of Congress, one of whom has now been charged with a crime for being shoved by masked agents who may or may not be ice. We've had the United States Senator from California tackled to the ground and detained like a criminal for just trying to ask Kristi Noem about the, the issuance of you know, military putting military on the streets of California to try to grab people off the streets there and put them into private prison facilities. And now we've had the duly elected representative in Nashville told that he's not allowed to go in because a private company gets to unimpeded get to throw a plant into his area that's going to potentially sicken people. Can you tell us what would you have wanted to ask had you been in that hearing?
- [44:22]
Justin Jones
I want to ask the question. My constituents have been asking me this. You know they're planning to build this Tesla tunnel from the airport to downtown to the Broadway honky tonks and bars. It's not going to serve, you know, working class people, the teachers, the school bus drivers, the cafeteria workers, the postal workers who live in my district. This is not going to help them. You know, there's not a real solution for public transit but, but instead it's going to serve tourists and the wealthy and well connected. The questions they had were the environmental impact. You know, this company, the Boring Company has had a history of polluting wastewater when they tried this project in Las Vegas. You know, my constituents are concerned with how this will impact you know them via pollution as well as occupational and workplace safety. There's been. Elon Musk sees people as expendable. He sees communities as expendable. And our community is saying we are not expendable, that people live here and that we will speak up for each other because we're not going to allow somebody who does not even live in our community to come here, destroy it like he did in Texas with his spaceship company. He's turned that city into a sacrificial zone, you know, and just saw it as disposable and then left them to be. And that's what he wants to do around this nation and he's doing around Tennessee and Memphis. He's building an XAI plant here, naturally trying to build this Tesla tunnel from the airport, which is going to be something that has not been done yet with no government oversight. The FAA hasn't had a saying. The state government, we haven't had a vote on it. They're giving away state property tomorrow. But I'm here and I just went to go look at it and employees from his company came out and told me that I was trespassing on state property and that they would call the police if I didn't leave. Just looking at it, I just wanted to see the land. We're giving away a football sized field space of land for free to Elon Musk. I want to see what that looks like and what is the better use of that land. I can see affordable housing for my constituents. I can see, you know, investing in things that serve the people, not giving land away to the richest man in the world who's on a vanity project. That's what this is.
- [46:10]
Joy Reid
And thank you for that correction because, right, it's hard to keep track of how many horrible things are being done by the super rich at the expense of vulnerable communities. Right. Memphis is where they're going to build the AI plant, which is going to pollute their air and water. This is a Tesla tunnel. So it just seems that it's sort of a playground. The United States has become a playground for billionaires to do whatever they want. Larry Ellison. The Ellison family. Him and his son David now own Paramount via Skydance. Meaning they get to, I guess, control, you know, everything from TV to movies to news to comedy for their own interests. Essentially. It feels like the whole country has been given away to core civic and other private prison industries. It's like a playground for the rich at this point, and Tennessee in particular. Representative Jones has already seen this when it comes to Gun manufacturers, they essentially can do whatever they want in Tennessee no matter how many children die, no matter how many schools get shot up. There's simply no desire among your colleagues to do anything to restrain them. And now they've added Elon Musk to the list of rich, powerful business interests that get to run your state.
- [47:23]
Justin Jones
That's, I mean, this is not government of buying for the people. This is government of buying for corporations. And I know it is no mistake. It's so hard to keep up with all the projects that Elon Musk is pushing through this nation because governments like the state of Tennessee, government ruled by Republicans, are bowing down to him. You know, this is the most insulting thing, Joy. Yesterday, Monday, the governor, when he announced his project, he said this is the, the coolest project he's worked on in his eight years as governor. The most, he's the most excited for this project. You know, I would be excited about funding our public schools. I'd be excited about, you know, investing in our real public transit, in our, in our healthcare infrastructure. I'd be excited about, you know, investing in climate mitigation with this record heat we're experiencing, building things that actually help working people and everyday people. Not this, this tunnel that's only going to be for Teslas underground. And that's not going to serve the people who live in the state. I mean, that's so insulting when it shows that they're not serious. You know, they're not serious politicians, serious legislators or serious government officials, but they are people who want to cozy up to the rich and powerful and a man who doesn't even care about us, like once he destroys Texas, he's gonna do the same to Tennessee. He's gonna go to another state. And so my message to the people across the nation is that they're coming to your community next. States like Tennessee are the tip of the spear where they come because they don't have any type of pushback, you know, they don't have any type of opposition. But they're gonna, they're trying to nationalize this and they already are. You know, and he wants to talk about government efficiency. This is not an efficient project to build a one way tunnel to a tourist area when a rail system that will actually get people to and from work to and from their children's soccer games. That's what we need. Not this vanity project of a Tesla tunnel that's only going to be used for his vehicle. So it's going to profit him by getting his vehicles, building charging stations for his Vehicles. It's all, it's all a profit scheme for billionaires, the wealthiest men in the world who sees our community as a community to just come in. And as a black elected official, I feel like it's almost like an apartheid government because the people, they're forcing this outside will on people. Yet the people who live here, my constituents in the most diverse district who are black and brown and working class, have no say. That's not how government should work.
- [49:20]
Joy Reid
Yeah. It is not almost like apartheid, Representative Jones. It is apartheid. And ask the people of Louisiana and Mississippi what it looks like when major corporations and polluters get to run the government and destroy the environment, when ordinary people have to pay the price in places like Cancer Alley, and then they just move on and drill somewhere else and they don't care how many people get sick and die. Representative Justin Jones, thank you for always standing for what's right and standing for the people. Thank you so much for being here.
- [49:49]
Justin Jones
Thank you so much. Mr. Joy, good to see you.
- [49:53]
Joy Reid
Thank you very much, young brother. I appreciate you. Well, we're just going to keep it going here and again, we're going to defy the WI FI gremlins and we're going to keep going because believe it or not, there's more. Just wait, there's more. Over the weekend, moving now to some international national news. A flotilla of some two dozen activists from around the world. They were from Norway and Australia and England and Spain and the United States all over the world. About two dozen of them attempted to approach Gaza by sea to deliver much needed food to the people who are being deliberately starved by the Netanyahu government or shot by the IDF when they try to retrieve the meager foodstuffs that do get in. The ship was detained and the people on board were taken into IDF custody. One of them, an American and the only black activist on the ship, Chris Smalls, was also allegedly beaten while in custody. We have some video of Chris Smalls and the video that he and all the other people that were on that ship made before they were detained after their ship was intercepted by by the Israeli military. Here is Chris Smalls video.
- [51:00]
Justin Jones
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Joy Reid
A VPN, you try to be in.
- [51:07]
Justin Jones
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Joy Reid
If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Or your money.
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Justin Jones
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- [51:33]
Michael Cohen
We have been intercepted at sea and I've been kidnapped by the Israeli occupation.
- [51:37]
Justin Jones
Forces or forces of the country complicit.
- [51:39]
Michael Cohen
In Israel's genocide of the Palestinians. I appeal to my comrades, friends, family, to everyone to put pressure on the US Government to demand my release and.
- [51:49]
Justin Jones
The release of my comrades as soon as possible.
- [51:51]
Michael Cohen
Thank you.
- [51:55]
Joy Reid
I have not heard anything from the United States government, the Trump regime, or really I haven't heard Democrats or Republicans calling for his release or the other multiple Americans. We're going to put up a picture of the Americans that were on that ship. It's about four or five Americans were on that ship, but they were also citizens from all over the rest of the world. And all of this is happening and this inaction by our government. There are the Americans who are who were on that ship, including Mr. Smalls. And all of this is coming as the prime Minister of Great Britain announced this week that the UK Is imminently going to join the hundred plus nations. There's something 170 nations around the world who recognize Palestine as a state. And they say, Keir Starmer, the prime minister there, says they're going to do that if the starvation siege does not end. I'm not sure why they wouldn't just do it, but they say they'll do it if the starvation siege does not end. We also are hearing reports Yashar Ali is reporting on his IG page, which you should be following, that potentially Canada and some other countries might join and do the same because of this forced starvation in Gaza. Joining me now is our friend Peter Beinart, who has been one of the most dogged journalists on this story. Peter, I want to ask you first about if you find it a strange do that the usually rather vocal and vociferous Trump administration hasn't said anything about what sure looks like the kidnapping of multiple Americans by a foreign government.
- [53:27]
Peter Beinart
I mean, the thing about the Trump administration's understanding of what it means to be an American, you know, is that it doesn't really rest on one's citizenship. It rests on conformity to kind of his understanding of what a true American is, which generally is a kind of white, conservative Christian. And so there's a long, and there's a long history when it comes to Israel that, let's say American citizens who are Palestinian don't get the protections really of the United States government. So I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm really not.
- [54:02]
Joy Reid
What about this, the notion that, what do you make of the fact that it seems that there are two of these detained people from this flotilla that seem to have been harmed in some way. There was a very elderly woman from Norway who was apparently put into solitary confinement despite her advanced age. And this gentleman who was the only black person that was on that ship allegedly beaten. What do you make of that?
- [54:28]
Peter Beinart
I mean, I, you know, I hope these things turn out not to be true, but I, I think you're, you're talking about an encounter with a, with a military force that, that is not constrained by international law. I, I mean, this is. If the United States had tried to enforce international law vis a vis Israel and supported the International Criminal Court, we would be in a very different reality today. But instead, the United States government under both Biden and Trump has consistently sent the message that international law doesn't apply to Israel. It doesn't apply to the United States either. It applies to America's adversaries alone and perhaps some random, you know, poor countries in places like Africa where the United States doesn't really have much interest. And so that's, these are the, this then when you create that context, these kind of things, if this, if this is what's happened, unfortunately wouldn't be out of control character.
- [55:29]
Joy Reid
And would, how would that change? How might that change if there was broad recognition from veto holding countries in the United nations of Palestine as a state, what might that change for Palestinians?
- [55:43]
Peter Beinart
I mean, it could potentially change something. It doesn't change anything in and of itself. It's symbolic. Right. There isn't obviously today, right now a state of Palestine and if there were Israeli troops wouldn't be there bombing and killing people. The question is whether the legal recognition will then lead Britain and France to impose sanctions and consequences on Israeli behavior when Israel does think is in the west bank or in Gaza or in East Jerusalem that they have it now. So maybe it's a step towards doing what really matters or maybe it's not. What really matters is ending military arms sales that facilitate this kind of slaughter and starvation and abuse and ending the kind of economic relationship that allows Israel to maintain this economic trade ties to Europe and not have to pay a consequence for what it's doing to Palestinians.
- [56:48]
Joy Reid
And you know, I don't know if you saw the Senator Slotkin in the interview that Crystal Ball did with her on her YouTube channel, which was pretty remarkable. Yeah. That she couldn't say that the forced starvation of men, women and children who are in Some cases dying at a, at a lower rate than when they were born.
- [57:08]
Peter Beinart
Right.
- [57:08]
Joy Reid
That you can see the pictures of. You see them starving. She couldn't get there to say that that is genocide. And she seemed to be twisting and turning and in a lot of physical pain almost trying to explain why we should still fund Israel's military. So Democrats are now are to the right of many Republicans, including Marjorie Taylor Greene on this. How do we explain this?
- [57:30]
Peter Beinart
Well, I think that the Israel Palestine issue is becoming in some ways less of a partisan issue and more of a kind of a, a top down issue in which the establishments of both parties, the political leaders of both parties in Washington are without, with a few exceptions, are generally supportive of unconditional support for Israel. While that, that, while support for that position has completely eroded in the Democratic Party and is significantly remoting among young Republicans as well. And so just like you saw that Tucker Carlson interview with Ted Cruz where Tucker Carlson was kind of, you know, not a fan of Tucker Carlson, but he was embodying a certain thing that's grow emerging from the right wing base, public party base and challenging Cruz. That's what Crystal Bolan, her co host were doing vis a vis Slotkin. And the astonishing. The amazing thing to me about that interview is Slotkin is a smart woman, right. She probably, she's actually more well versed on this issue than most members of Congress. She was in the military, she has some background in the Middle east. But, but because of the ideological kind of limitations of how you're allowed to talk about this issue in Washington, when she was confronted with people who asked her very basic straightforward moral questions, even though she's a smart woman, she was basically tying herself up in complete knots and pretzels because she can't answer these questions in a straightforward way. Right. She, she because and I think that it's so it makes you realize why it's so important for people us to have journalists who will ask those questions. Right. Who penetrate this kind of self created bubble that exists in so much Washington discourse around this subject.
- [59:16]
Joy Reid
Yeah. And kudos to Crystal who did some excellent journalism that you really don't see on mainstream media. CNN cohos stayed on it. But there is this sort of twisting and turning to the point where Democrats can't even back the likely winning candidate for the mayor of New York. They're still. I watched Andrew Cuomo get about eight minutes of free airtime on cnn. No one asked if he ought to condemn Bibi Netanyahu and Smotrich who had said we're going to put Gaza on a diet, they said, way before they started starving them when we're going to do this. And no one ever asked, do you condemn Bibi Netanyahu? No one ever asked. But Mamdani is demanded that he condemn Hamas every time he goes on tv. And it seems like Democrats would rather oppose him and get back Cuomo than back there. I don't understand where Democrats are on this. Is this just apex power? Are they that powerful?
- [60:10]
Peter Beinart
I don't know. I mean, I think it's partly that. I think it's also that a lot of these Democratic politicians have, they have emerged in a political environment in which for many, for their entire political careers, the message they've gotten is the safe thing to do politically is to support Israel. Right. And yes, that's partly, certainly due to aipac, but it's also because public opinion used to be somewhat different on this issue. And I think that they haven't realized that actually just putting aside the moral, the horror and the absolute indefensibility morally of this, they are really slow and I think a lot of them are. I think it kind of in a bit of a cocoon, a kind of consultant Democratic politician cocoon and it's partly generational where they don't realize that actually this position they're taking, they should look at Andrew Cuomo and think do I want to be Andrew Cuomo? Right. Because Andrew Homo had a lot of problems. But, but part of, but, but Zora, we seem, we have polling on this now. Zoram Hamdani's position on Israel, Palestine was an asset with voters in New York. Right. And a lot of the Democratic politicians, I think if they, they're going to have a really rude awakening when they actually go and talk to voters on this and realize that the, what they think is safe politics is no longer safe politics. It's actually very unsafe politics. I think there are a lot of Democratic politicians who are kind of in the position that Jeb Bush was in, in the Republican Party. He thought he understood his, his political party, but he really didn't.
- [61:41]
Joy Reid
Amen. Peter Beinart, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. My friend. Thank you very much for making the.
- [61:45]
Peter Beinart
Absolutely, always a pleasure. Take care.
- [61:49]
Joy Reid
Thank you. Cheers. And I want to note for you all as we exit this topic that a, one of the filmmakers in an award winning project, a Palestinian filmmaker who joined an Oscar winning project film project, was killed not in Gaza, but in the West Bank. We're seeing the kinds of violence take place on the west bank by settlers who with impunity are killing Palestinian farmers and ordinary citizens. And this filmmaker who was part of the no Other Land documentary crew, you can see in there, he's a father of three young children killed by settlers. And my understanding is that the man who killed him has already gotten out on bond and he was deemed not, not unsafe to release. That is where we are. It is a, it is a scary place that we are. And there's a lot else of. Else of other things going on in the country that seem to merit condemnation. You see what's happening in Sudan and in the Congo as well. And we're going to talk more about those subjects on this podcast as well, because it does feel like there are certain entities that are acting with impunity in our world today. One of them is, of course, the state of Israel, which seems to be unbounded by morality, by international law, even by being deemed an apartheid state by the icc, being deemed a state in which their leader is a war criminal. Nothing seems to be slowing them down at all. And Democrats are clearly on the wrong side of history there. But those forces are happening. And also corporations, major corporations that are running roughshod over this country, taking whatever land they want, despoiling it, polluting that land, then land the air in all of whatever state they want and being able to do that and then doing that overseas. If you don't understand that Sudan and the Congo are just the result of major corporations and their greed going in and despoiling those countries for greed, despoiling those countries and letting people die, including children that are mining for the materials to make iPhones. It's all one story. I say this all the time. It's just one big story. And then the third group of private corporations that seem to be running roughshod over our constitution, our laws and our morality. Private prisons. This country is now in the private prison and pollutants. But business to the point now where apparently our federal government in its wisdom is going to now declare that the greenhouse gases emitted by coal and gas companies are not pollutants at all. Because private prisons have got to win. They get to do whatever they want. People die. People get sick. Oh well, too bad. I want to thank you all for hanging with us and thank you for hanging with us with our. Our Wi Fi connection problems. Thanks to everybody who is also listening on Spotify or on Substack and those of us who are here on YouTube and also our team TJRS members. The live chat will be on Friday. We'll be back in our home WI fi. So it's going to be great. So if you are a team TJRS member, you're going to participate in this Members Only chat and also Substack Premium members, you're going to get to be in that chat too. We're just going to hang out with one another. That's going to be at 8:15pm Eastern Standard Time right here on this channel and on Substack as well. Please want to ask you guys to subscribe. Do not just be a lurker. Make sure that you are a subscriber to this channel so that we will know that you care about independent media and that you support independent journalism. Also want to ask you to share, share, share, share this channel so that more people can join our team and also hit the okay.