State Authority vs. Federal Overreach Ft. Maryland Governor Wes Moore | The Joy Reid Show, Aug 27, 2025

Summary

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The Joy Reid Show: “State Authority vs. Federal Overreach”

Guest: Maryland Governor Wes Moore
Host: Joy-Ann Reid
Air Date: August 28, 2025

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Overview

In this charged and timely episode, Joy-Ann Reid sits down with Maryland Governor Wes Moore to discuss the escalating tension between state governments and what Reid describes as the increasingly authoritarian tactics of the Trump administration. The episode focuses on the deployment of federal and National Guard troops in blue cities, governors' resistance to federal overreach, the broader attack on civil liberties, and issues ranging from immigration and education to the assault on history and the importance of Black joy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Federal Overreach & State Resistance

• Military Checkpoints and Occupation: The episode opens with the pressing topic of military checkpoints appearing in Maryland, expanding from D.C. under the Trump administration.

  • Governor Moore’s Response: He states unequivocally that the authority to deploy National Guard troops in Maryland rests solely with the governor and condemns what he calls the “blatant push and eradication of the fabric and the intent of the law.”
    • “There will be no military incursions in the state of Maryland because nobody has the authority to be able to put troops... in any of our streets. Unless the authority comes from me.” (03:15)
    • “If you are not willing to be part of the solution, keep our names out of your mouth.” (03:56)

• Active Duty vs. National Guard: Moore distinguishes between the president's authority over federal troops (active duty) and governors’ exclusive authority over their state’s National Guard.

  • “The Maryland National Guard have one commander in chief, and that is me. And the Maryland National Guard knows they do not move or activate unless the order comes from me.” (05:21)

• Danger of Military Policing: As both a governor and a military veteran, Moore warns about the misuse of the military as a police force on American soil, calling it dangerous, illegal, and a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.

  • "No one signed up and said, I cannot wait to go... training to focus on doing activities that frankly, the United States military should not be destined for." (07:20)
  • “Under Posse Comitatus, [the military is] not to be used for municipal policing functions. That is a direct violation.” (08:18)

2. Politics & The Erosion of Professionalism in Government

• Loss of Esteem in Political Roles: Joy Reid points out the replacement of qualified officials with TV hosts and podcasters in major federal roles, expressing concern that this diminishes the seriousness and effectiveness of American governance.
• Slashing of Federal Jobs (the “Doge layoff extravaganza”): Moore explains the local impact of Trump’s mass firings of federal workers, highlighting the ripple effect on employment and wealth creation in Maryland, especially in communities of color.
  • “This has been a deep assault on not just employment, but wealth creation... These are not glancing blows. These are direct shots that we're taking from the federal government.” (16:26–16:47)

3. Redistricting & State Power in Voting Rights

• Responding to Gerrymandering: Maryland and California plan to counter gerrymandering moves by other states to disenfranchise minority voters, including the possibility of retaliatory redistricting.
  • “If the President... is now in cahoots with certain states... then there is no way that Maryland or any other state should... have to sit on the sideline on principles. Everything is going to be on the table.” (17:27)

4. Education, History, and Culture Wars

• Attacks on Historical Truths: Moore responds to efforts by the administration to rewrite the country’s history and suppress Black history, particularly at the Smithsonian and in education.

  • “When you know your history, you know your power. The reason I walk into every room... with my head high is because I know where I came from.” (23:23)

• Anti-Censorship Actions: Maryland has proactively banned book bans, aiming to protect access to history and literature despite national trends of censorship.

  • “In Maryland, I signed legislation that actually bans the banning of books. You can't ban books in the state of Maryland.” (22:46)

5. Reparations & Racial Equity Initiatives

• On Reparations: Moore explains his controversial veto of a reparations study bill, emphasizing immediate action over prolonged studies.
  • “I don't need two years. What the people need right now is action.” (25:28)
  • He cites unprecedented investments in HBCUs, mass pardons for cannabis convictions, and targeted funding for historically harmed communities as forms of "repair" already underway.

6. Immigration, Labor, and Human Rights

• Defending Immigrant Communities: Moore fiercely critiques the Trump administration’s immigration policies, highlighting the economic indispensability of immigrants and Maryland’s non-cooperation with unconstitutional federal directives.

  • “If you take away immigration from American GDP growth, essentially American GDP is flat... you cannot talk about American vibrance, the American story and the American economy without understanding that so much of that is driven by immigrants.” (29:12)
  • “I cooperate with the Constitution.” (33:01)

• Protecting Families and Upholding Rights: Moore reassures Maryland’s immigrant families and educators that the state will honor constitutional rights and not participate in arbitrary enforcement actions driven by racial profiling.

  • “We do not make this up as we go along and we will not tolerate people who are just making it up as we go along... this is going to be a state where we will actually honor the Constitution and follow the laws of the land.” (34:41)

7. Personal Reflection and Black Joy

• Modeling Resilience and Joy: Moore closes on a deeply personal note, explaining his family's commitment to public display of joy and stability as an act of resistance and hope in difficult times.
  • "Black joy is a real thing and our family has it... I will never let anybody steal my joy." (36:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Governor Moore on Federal Overreach:
  “This is not even just a stretching of the law. We are seeing a direct and blatant push and eradication of the fabric and the intent of the law in the first place from this administration.” (03:24)

• On Unqualified Appointments:
  “You don't see people achieving these roles out of pure qualifications... The Secretary of Defense is a TV host from Fox... I'm not sure that makes you Defense Secretary.” (12:17)

• On Maryland’s Proactive Steps:
  “In Maryland, I signed legislation that actually bans the banning of books. You can't ban books in the state of Maryland.” (22:46)

• On Reparative Justice:
  “What we need is action. And that's what I want to be able to continue supporting in Maryland.” (27:17)

• On Immigration and the Economy:
  “If you tell me they got someone who worked at the NIH with a PhD who's now out of a job, you know, I'd like to know their phone number.” (15:28)

• On Family and Community Strength:
  “We are joyful people. We are joyful community. This is a joyful state. This is a loving state. We take care of each other and we protect each other. And as we say in Maryland, we leave no one behind.” (37:17)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:15: Governor Moore's vow against military incursions in Maryland
• 05:21: Clarification of authority over National Guard vs. active duty military
• 07:20 & 08:18: Dangers and illegality of military policing under Posse Comitatus
• 12:17 & 14:40: Impact of federal layoffs and unqualified federal appointments
• 17:27: Maryland's stance on retaliatory redistricting
• 22:46: Maryland’s legislative ban on banning books
• 25:28: Moore’s explanation for vetoing a reparations study bill
• 29:12: Immigration as a backbone of GDP and local economy
• 33:01: Commitment to upholding the Constitution for immigrants’ rights
• 36:20: Maintaining Black joy in face of adversity
• 37:17: Moore’s definition of Maryland’s communal approach

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Conclusion

This episode presents a powerful and urgent conversation about the dynamics of state authority, the threat of federal overreach under the Trump administration, and the practical and moral imperative for state officials to defend civil liberties. Governor Wes Moore emerges as both a defender of constitutional principles and a passionate advocate for his state’s communities, demonstrating a balance of immediate action, policy innovation, and personal resilience.

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Transcript

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[Governor Wes Moore]

Hey.

[Joy Reid (Host/Announcer)]

With the Trump regime becoming more and more blatantly authoritarian, including putting armed National Guard troops in blue cities and essentially occupying the nation's capital with troops largely from the states of the former Confederacy, state officials from mayors to governors, are increasingly the one thing standing between US Citizens and a complete loss of civil liberties. Recently, the Joy Reid show sat down with Maryland Governor Wes Moore to discuss how he, as a governor and a decorated military veteran, plans to respond.

[Joy Reid]

Governor Westmore, thank you so much for having us.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I'm honored to have a seat at the table.

[Joy Reid]

Listen, it's your table, technically, but I appreciate being at it with you. I want to start by. I want to show you this. I'm going to hand you my phone. This was posted on threads a short time ago. And it's a military checkpoint set up by the Trump administration, but that is in Takoma park, which technically is in Maryland. What's your reaction to the fact that it appears, at least, if the that is to be believed, that this military occupation of D.C. is starting to creep into your state?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, I can tell you right now that there will be no military incursions in the state of Maryland because nobody has the authority to be able to put troops, especially if you're talking about Maryland Guard troops in any of our streets. Unless the authority comes from me, you know. But this is what we are seeing in Washington, D.C. is not even just a stretching of the law. We are seeing a direct and blatant push and eradication of the fabric and the intent of the law in the first place from this administration. So I do want to be very clear, if you are not willing to be part of the solution, keep our names out of your mouth.

[Joy Reid]

Governor Moore making headlines and no apologies as he takes direct aim at President Trump.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And I will never activate members of our National Guard for theatrics.

[Joy Reid]

That vow delivered on CNN days after the president blasted Baltimore's crime and deployed federal troops in D.C. then you have.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Of course, Baltimore and Oakland.

[Joy Reid]

Can I ask you about the fact that we've seen. Seen this administration, in addition to what they're doing in the, in the nation's capital, which I want to dig more into. In the state of California, they simply inserted the military. They inserted the National Guard over the objections of the governor.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Active duty soldiers.

[Joy Reid]

Active duty soldiers. Over the objections of the governor, Donald.

[California Governor (Gavin Newsom)]

Trump, without consulting California law enforcement leaders, commandeered 2,000 of our state's National Guard members to deploy on our streets illegally and for no reason. This brazen abuse of power by a sitting president inflamed a combustible situation, putting our people, our officers, and even our National Guard at risk.

[Joy Reid]

If that were to happen in Maryland, what happened?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, the president does have the authority for active duty soldiers. He is the commander in chief of the. The United States active duty military. But National Guard, their commander in chief is the governor. The Maryland National Guard, the people who, when he's talking about activating National Guards. The Maryland National Guard have one commander in chief, and that is me. And the Maryland National Guard knows they do not move or they do not activate unless the order comes from me as their commander in chief. And it's something that I do take very, very seriously, where since I've been the governor, I have had to activate the National Guard in times of crisis, in times of emergencies, in times when there was a unique circumstance that the National Guard was trained to be able to take on municipal policing functions is not one of those things. And so as someone, particularly as someone who has had to deploy, as someone who's had to put on the uniform of this country and proudly so. But I did it also with the understanding and the belief that the commander in chief was doing what was in the best interest of not just accomplishing something that was mission critical, but something that was done with the intent of making sure that I was going to be safe and my family was going to be taken care of. That does not qualify in this situation. And so I have been crystal clear, and I will continue to be crystal clear to the White House and to anyone else. The Maryland National Guard will not be activated and I will not authorize them to be activated unless it is clear mission, unless it's clearly mission critical or mission aligned.

[Joy Reid]

Let's talk about this. Just two points on that. Number one, because you are a military veteran, you've done this job. The idea of the United States military, of soldiers being deployed to the streets of American cities to set up checkpoints as if they're in an occupied foreign country, how do you react to that? Just as a veteran, just as a citizen, and as somebody who's worn the uniform.

[Governor Wes Moore]

It'S so dangerous. Both because that's not what we're trained on and it's not what we signed up for. There is nobody who signed up to become a member of the National Guard who said, I cannot wait to do municipal policing functions. If you wanted to do that, then you sign up for the police force. Right? No one signed up and said, I cannot wait to be able to go to drill on the weekend or go have my ait. My two week training to go focus on doing activities that frankly, the United States military should not be destined for. And you know, and you know, and I, and I heard that the President, United States, you know, came at me basically saying that I don't know the proper usage of how to use the National Guard, knowing my history as a combat veteran, as someone who's led soldiers overseas and knowing his history, he should really sit that one out.

[Joy Reid]

Right? I mean, there's a Posse Comitatus Act. It seems that it should be illegal.

[Governor Wes Moore]

For this to happen, it absolutely is. The United States military under law. Correct. Under Posse comitatus cannot, is not to be used for municipal policing functions. That is a direct violation for Posse Comitatus. And so to see the president of the United States continue to try to stretch that law or try to declare emergency circumstances as to why laws need to be circumvented, you know, one, unfortunately, is pretty par for the course for who he is. I mean, this should not be shocking. This is what's happened his entire life. But also it is and should be very clear to anybody who understands the law and who follows the Constitution and who understands the training of our military personnel that this is a really dangerous abuse of power.

[Joy Reid]

So now let's talk about this just from the point of view of governors. We know that several other red state governors are sending their National Guardsmen to the nation's capital to do those very functions. You're talking about states like Mississippi, South Carolina, states that are in places that are flood zones, places where there could be national emergencies or could be statewide emergencies, places that have higher violence rates and higher violence. Well, that too. But from a governor's point of view, as you look at what those governors are doing, what kind of a risk are they taking sending what could be very needed troops to D.C. for no legal reason?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I mean, I have too much respect for the members of my National Guard to do that to them. I have too much respect for those men and women and their families. I have too much respect for the service that they're taking on and the sacrifices that they're taking on to put them in performative and politically driven operations. And to your point that we are talking about a time when there are real emergencies that we potentially could need the National Guard for, where just weeks ago, you know, I activated our members of the Maryland National Guard to go serve on standby in western Maryland when we had historic floods, when we literally had to send boats up to the second floor of a schoolhouse so children could be saved because the first floor is completely washed out. And part of the reason why we had to send the National Guard to go provide support to the people of Western Port and to the people of Allegheny and Garrett counties is because, for example, their firehouse, where the fire department was, was washed away. And so we needed the National Guard to go provide additional supports. And they. And on my instructions, they moved and they mobilized and they did a beyond admirable job of being able to make sure they were fulfilling the mission that they were laid out to do. What about A governor who is dealing with a crisis, an emergency, and you go and you look at your adjutant general and you say, we need to activate the guard to help in X, Y and Z. And it's like, oh, sorry, they're actually patrolling the streets of Washington, D.C. and for what? So I just have too much respect for these men and women who are serving to go do something that frankly does not need to be done by them, and. And particularly because they are not trained for that in the first place.

[Joy Reid]

So do you believe these governors are doing this for strictly performative reasons?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I can't speak for them, but I know that ain't going to be me.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, let's talk about this, because, you know, before we started this interview, I was saying to you that one of the costs of this current Trump 2.0 administration is that they seem to be diminishing, I would say, the esteem of, of so many political offices. The Secretary of Defense is a TV host from Fox, and as a former cable TV host, there's nothing wrong with being a former cable TV host, but I'm not sure that makes you Defense Secretary. The head of the FBI is a former podcaster, his deputy a former podcaster. You could go on and on and on. You don't see people that are achieving these roles out of pure qualifications, and in many cases, they're replacing people with these kinds of qualifications. But the role of governors has really become to the fore because it really is governors that are standing up to the administration. So for you, what does it do to the esteem of those positions if now governors? Also, we're seeing Greg Abbott in Texas redistricting the state at Trump's command. What's the danger, if you think there is a danger in that?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, I think it actually, it tracks with this larger degradation of public service that we continue to see from members of the Trump administration. And frankly, you're seeing a slandering of public servants, a slandering of their work, and a slandering of their contribution to society. And it's being done by people who are never willing to take the same oath that they were able to take and that they took voluntarily, that when you're firing federal workers, as we've seen now in Maryland, over, you know, you know, over 10,000 federal workers have now been fired by Donald Trump. People whose job it was to make sure that our food is safe, whose job is to make sure that planes are landing safely, whose job it is to make sure that veterans who are coming back home with PTSD are getting the medication that they need, who are doing cancer research, and they're being told by Donald Trump that your service is now not needed, unnecessary, and maybe never even was, by someone who was never willing to take an oath and actually serve on behalf of other people. And so I think the, you know, what we are seeing when you are putting deeply unqualified and deeply unserious people inside of major seats within government, it's actually very consistent with what you see, because it's basically showing people, you shouldn't be concerned about me laying off tens of thousands of federal workers, because all these people that we're putting in there aren't necessarily people that you should look up to or aspire to.

[Joy Reid]

How has the Doge layoff extravaganza impacted Maryland economically? How has it impacted Maryland overall?

[Governor Wes Moore]

It's impacted Maryland more than any other state in the country. We have lost, you know, more federal workers now. In fact, I think it's, you know, actually over 12,000 federal workers more than any other state inside the country. And we're talking about a state that has a deep, deep support system within the federal government. You know, There are over 260,000 federal jobs inside of the. Inside of the state of Maryland. And that does not even include the contractors. That does not include the uniform personnel that if you look at places like Prince George's county, which is, you know, the wealthiest black county inside the entire country, a huge generator and support for that wealth was actually for people who were working in federal jobs, people who started businesses, et cetera. And so this has been a deep assault on not just employment, but wealth creation and arguably the deepest assault on the state of Maryland. But it is part of the reason why we have been so aggressive when it comes to making sure that our federal workers are taken care of and making sure that we're finding additional ways for them to be able to serve. I mean, we. We started an initiative early called Feds to eds, where if you were a federal worker who was fired by Donald Trump, and we knew we had a shortage of educators and teachers inside of our state, we said, if you are a federal worker who is qualified and interested, get them certified, get them trained up, and get them in a classroom as quickly as possible, that initiative alone has been able to decrease the. The. The educator vacancies that we had in the state of Maryland by. By around 10% already that we've been able to move people into the private sector. Because the private sector is now looking and saying, if you tell me they got a. Someone who worked at the NIH with a PhD who's not out of a job. You know, I'd like to know their. I'd like to know their phone number.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And so I'm really proud of the way that the state has mobilize, as the state always does in crisis. We mobilize and we take care of each other. But there is no doubt that this assault that Donald Trump has had on the state of Maryland, these are not glancing blows. These are direct shots that we're taking from the federal government.

[Joy Reid]

And I mentioned Greg Abbott. I've spent a good deal of today watching the hearings wherein the Texas Republican Party is attempting to pass some really blatantly racist gerrymandered maps in order to reduce the power, quite frankly, and the ability of black Texans, who are the largest cohort of African Americans in the country, to choose their own representation. California has responded to that by saying that if you take away two of the four black held congressional seats and one Latino seat, five seats that Donald Trump has demanded, California will respond by removing five Republicans, three through gerrymandering mid census. Will Maryland do the same?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yes, because Maryland, Maryland has to. You know that we have to remember that enfranchisement of our voters is something that's deeply important, that when we came on board that we were able to make sure that we could do things like extending early voting, making sure that more Marylanders had a chance to have their voices heard. And I do believe deeply that you need to have fair maps so, so that you don't have elected officials choosing their people, but people having the chance to choose their elected officials. But I also know this. If the President of the United States is now in cahoots with certain states to be able to move and gerrymander maps, that is essentially saying that the only way that I can win is if I cheat, then there is no way that Maryland or any other state should then just have to sit on the sideline on principles. So everything is going to be on the table for the state of Maryland because you cannot watch these other states continue to change the rules and think that other states, states like the state of Maryland are just going to say, absolutely not. Because we set this up. You know, we set things in the way they're going to be. Everything is on the table for the state of Maryland.

[Joy Reid]

Now, of course, you clearly enjoy being governor, you're very proud of being governor. But I think the question everybody wants to know is whether you are interested in upgrade. I know you're running for reelection, but have you thought about and Are you interested, assuming we have free and fair elections, which I think is a big asterisk on this, that we ever have free and fair elections again, Are you interested in running for president?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I'm not at all, no. I mean, I'm. Well. Well, one, I have to tell you, I am so locked in right now. I have, I have. Like, it's so funny. People have asked, they're like, how are you? How are you doing? And how are you dealing with. With everything going on and the fact that the Trump administration is just literally on a daily basis targeting you? First, how I'm doing is I'm blessed and highly favored. And second, how I'm doing is I've never had more clarity. I'm locked in and I'm very clear about what the assignment is for me. I think that for people who are posturing for something three years down the line or five years down the line or eight years down the line, my response to them is, you're not taking now very seriously, are you? You don't understand what's going on. You're not seeing the fact that we are watching families legacies being changed overnight, not seeing the fact that we are watching legacy projects being canceled, seeing the fact that we're watching prices rise on everything because of these random and arbitrary tariff policies, not paying attention to the fact that we are literally seeing how a quarter of a million Marylanders could lose their health care, have a health issue that then could end up shaping the future of your family for generations. So I am fully focused and I'm not thinking about nothing else besides making sure that 17 months to be of the state of Maryland give me say that we believe in the work that's happening and we're thankful for the work that we've done as governor. We've gone from 43rd in the country in unemployment to now having amongst the lowest unemployment rates in the entire country for a year and a half. Our unemployment rate right now is 3.4%, about a full point lower than the national average. We've had amongst the fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in America. You look at Baltimore City, the last time the homicide rate was this low in Baltimore City. I wasn't born yet. Maryland's leading the is amongst the states leading the nation in drops in violent crime that we have had over 35,000 new businesses start in Maryland. Since I've been the governor, around 100,000 new jobs started in the state of Maryland. Like Maryland is moving. And I am focused on making sure that there is nothing and no one who is going to stop the momentum that we're seeing in Maryland.

[Joy Reid (Host/Announcer)]

I hope you're enjoying this interview and hopefully you'll take this moment to hit the subscribe button below to keep more of this independent media coming your way. Thanks for your support. And now back to the interview.

[Joy Reid]

One of the things you talked about, some of the things that are being taken away and some of the risks that we're seeing with this administration in place, one of them is an attack on history. A pretty blatant attack on history. Not far from here is the what they call the Blacksonian. We call the Blacksonian. They call it nmaok. I object to nmaok, but this is what they officially call it, the folks who work there. Donald Trump sent a missive to all of the Smithsonian Museum saying that in advance of the 250th birthday for the country and the 250th birthday for the Declaration of Independence, he essentially wants the museums to change the way they're telling history, to do it in a way that fits with his executive order that essentially wants to suppress these histories, particularly of slavery. That's become a thing. We saw it on cnn. Jillian Michaels, who I think her expertise is sports, debating whether or not slavery was really all that bad. With those attacks on history, how do you preserve it for the students, the kids who go to school and to go to college in Maryland?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I think you preserve it by making sure that you pass laws that can do that. I think it's one of the most powerful things about being a governor right now is that governors, we don't just have to rail against what's going on. We can actually show what the alternative looks like. And so, for example, as the Donald Trump came on board and, you know, they were talking about how they want to, you know, ban books and ban histories and ban stories. Well, in Maryland, I signed legislation that actually bans the banning of books. You can't ban books in the state of Maryland because governors do have a unique role right now inside this moment to show what the alternative looks like. And especially because we know the garbage that they're talking about about why they're doing this is so transparently foolish, this idea that we're doing it because we do not want to make people feel bad. We're doing it because we are trying to attack a woke ideology. The reason they are trying to ban history is not because they do not want people to feel bad. The reason they are banning history is because they don't want people to Understand their power. Because when you know your history, you know your power. The reason I walk into every room I walk into with my head high is because I know where I came from, right? I know my legacy. I know my history. And I know that every room I walk into, it's not because of someone's kindness or because of some. Because of some savior, that every room I walk into is because that room got better, because I walked in it, and because that room was incomplete until I showed up. Because I know my history. And that is why I think it is so, so crucially important for each and every one of us to make sure that this pushback against history, this pushback against. Against the Blacksonian and everything else that we got going on, that. That we cannot tolerate it nor let it happen. That we have to use every single tool at our disposal to make sure that our children and every child knows the history that should be protected and lifted up. Because that is going to be the thing that continues to remind us that even if you find yourself in difficult situations right now, that better days are ahead and joy does come in the morning. And the reason I know that is because I know my history.

[Joy Reid]

So one of the things I think that people who are defending that history and going through it and really looking at the consequences to people who look like you and me to the history of this country is they're saying there really needs to be a real repair. There needs to be reparations. That. That actually needs to happen. The late Sheila Jackson Lee fought for it. Ron Dellums fought for it. It's been a cause among many African American intellectuals, et cetera. There was a bill in this state that would have done a study on reparations. You vetoed that bill. Can you tell me why you vetoed it and where you stand on whether or not African Americans should receive reparations for slavery?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, I mean, I have a deep respect for the work that. The work that the Legislative Black Caucus did on this bill. I also have a fundamental disagreement as to what is needed in this moment and where, you know, the bill talked about a two year study that would then present to the governor. And my point is this. I am the governor and I don't need two years. What the people need right now is action. And I'm proud of the work that we've been able to do in partnership where since I've been the governor, that we've now invested over $1.3 billion into Maryland's HBCUs, which is a 60% increase than anything my predecessor got done in eight years that we have been able to do the largest mass pardon in the history of the United States of America, where I pardoned over 175,000 misdemeanor cannabis convictions. Knowing who, who that was primarily impacting that we were able to provide over $400 million going to communities that have been suffered the historical legacies of redlining, of unfair appraisal values of mass incarceration, of the legacy of Jim Crow, and saying that these are the communities that are then standing in the front of line with our Just Communities Initiative for $400 million to make sure that we can continue doing the work of repair. I believe deeply in the work of repair. I believe deeply that we have to be able to atone for the unbelievable legacy, not just in the state of Maryland, but around the United States, of what we've seen in the history of racism and the way it still continues to impact communities. I also feel right now what we need is action. And that's why I stand where I stood.

[Joy Reid]

And so your idea is that there should be immediate financial assistance, immediate effects right now, and rather than waiting for a sort of cash transaction, reparations. Is that where you're going with this?

[Governor Wes Moore]

If we have to fix the systems and the structures, the systems and the structures are the things that continue to combat us. The fact that we still are dealing with inadequate schools, inadequate transportation assets, that we still deal with environmental injustice, that we still continue this day dealing with mass incarceration, that we still continue this day dealing with the fact that we have a racial wealth gap, that when I first became the governor of the state of Maryland, we had an 8 to 1 racial wealth gap. And that's not because one group worked eight times harder. That's because of the legacy of racism that continued to plague so much of our society. And so my point is that we have to do the work of repair now. What we need is actions right now. And while I have a deep amount of respect for the work that was done with our, with our General assembly, and a deep amount of respect for the fact that There have been four commissions in the past 25 years in Maryland alone that have helped to deal with the history of racism inside the state of Maryland, what we did not need right now is a two year commission to study this issue. We need action. And that's what I want to be able to continue supporting in Maryland.

[Joy Reid]

You know, one of the things about the history of enslavement is that the quest for cheap labor has never abated. In American history. I think we can both agree on that. And that for many, many industries, still goes on. It still goes on. And there has been a pursuit of cheap labor that has now come largely from Central America, from South America. People who are in this country working extremely hard, long hours, 12 hours for very little money, sometimes un unionized, not receiving any benefits like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, not qualified for it, they can't vote. But they're here, millions of them, and there is a dogged determination among the current administration to remove them all. And I was just this morning watching.

[Governor Wes Moore]

A press conference that would break the American economy, by the way.

[Joy Reid]

By the way, you know, say more.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, when people look at the American economy. So that's the thing. Sometimes when you're talking to folks in this administration, the facts are really stubborn things and they get in the way of their arguments. Because if you look at American GDP and American GDP growth, you know what is helping to fuel American GDP growth? Immigration. If you take away immigration from American GDP growth, essentially American GDP is flat. The reason that we have growth, the reason we have seen growth has actually been because of immigration. Because if you take away immigration and if you take out immigrants from so many of our industries, everything from the construction industry to the healthcare industry to the agricultural industry, when we looked at the crisis and the tragedy of what happened with the Key Bridge in Baltimore, where we had a ship the size of three football fields that slammed into the two mile long Key Bridge, knocking that bridge out instantaneously. And we lost six people during that, during that tragedy. Six people who were fixing potholes in the middle of the night, fixing potholes so the roads could be smooth when we all woke up in the morning and had to get to work. Six people who are all immigrants to the United States. So it's just. You cannot talk about American vibrance, the American story and the American economy without understanding that so much of that is driven by immigrants. And this is a very, this is. I know it's a very personal story for us. I was raised by an immigrant single mother, right. And I know we have a broken immigration system inside this country. I understand that and I get that. I know it's been broken for a very long time. But I also know if the President was actually serious about addressing it, he could and he would. The problem is he won't because he's actually not serious about fixing the problem. He's serious about demonizing a group of people for a measure of political gain.

[Joy Reid]

Right. And I want to, because I think we share this. We both were raised by immigrants, and we understand the immigrant story. And I think your family can attest, as mine do, that it took my mother 16 years to get her citizenship. And there is this pull of American industry that is pulling undocumented people here. It's not as if they're making this up on their own. The demonization, though, of the border has been very successful among Republicans. It is their best issue. How do you protect immigrants in a state like Maryland where you've made the point they're very important to the economy. When people are demonizing them simply for being here and saying, well, they didn't do it the right way, they deserve what they're getting.

[Governor Wes Moore]

First of all, this demonization is real and it's horrific and it's unfair because. And you bring up a really important point because do you know who I hear that from? In addition to many of the immigrant families who we are interacting with and the immigrant families who we protect, I also hear from employers who are saying, you know what? I had a person from Haiti who was doing really good work and now has not shown up for two weeks, and like, this is hurting my business. Or the person over in Baltimore county who I heard, who had a worker who's been there for seven things, 17 years from Ecuador, who was a single father raising a special needs child, who is now afraid to show up at the work site because he's deeply afraid that if he gets picked up that his child will now become an orphan. So this is something that I think there is a universal understanding of people who are saying the way that this administration is going about doing this work is deeply troubling and problematic. That. Yes. Do we want to make sure we have a secure border? Yes. Do we want to make sure that violent criminals are not in our neighborhoods? Absolutely. Do we want to make sure that we have a humane pathway to citizenship, though that has to be an important component of it. And what I think things we can do on the state level is one thing I'm very clear about. When people say, well, what is your measure of cooperation? My answer is this. I cooperate with the Constitution. The Constitution is very clear about what is the role of states and what is the role of the federal government. And so the guidance that I give to the people of the state of Maryland, the guidance I give to my law enforcement, the guidance I give to local law enforcement is, follow the Constitution. The President of the United States nor any of his folk, cannot tell you to do something if it is not. If it is not constitutional. Follow the Constitution. And that's what we're doing in the state of Maryland.

[Joy Reid]

But what we're seeing, you know, Tom Homan gave an interview on CNN in which he said, yeah, we believe that the way someone looks or their accent should provide a predicate to stop someone. We're seeing not constitutional, exactly. We're seeing people who are being thrown on the ground, who are simply a delivery person or not, or dragged out of cars simply because they're brown. School is about to start in Maryland. Around the country, kids likely are going to be afraid to go to school. What do you tell immigrant families here that are brown people or black people who at this point may be afraid to go to work or to school? What do you tell them?

[Governor Wes Moore]

And we saw that at the end of last school year when the Trump administration already began these barbaric practices. And I will tell them now what I told them. What I told them before, is that we follow the laws here and we follow the Constitution and you are going to have a state government and, and have a local government that also follows the Constitution. We do not make this up as we go along and we will not tolerate people who are just making it up as we go along that there are constitutional rights that the people of the state of Maryland and the people in this country have and that in Maryland, this is going to be a state where we will actually honor the Constitution and follow the laws of the land.

[Joy Reid]

The Justice Department has low key threatened that governors like yourself or mayors who don't comply could also face legal consequences. Your thoughts?

[Governor Wes Moore]

That's not making me flinch. I have faced many tough enemies for my life so they can threaten what they want. It's not making me flinch.

[Joy Reid]

My exit question to you, Governor, is a lot of us have enjoyed your Instagram feed. We get to see your beautiful family, your wife and kids. You seem to have a lot of fun together.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Sure do.

[Joy Reid]

And I think it presents a sort of very positive, refreshing image of the black family that I think we need in this moment, because people are feeling really frightened and feeling really sort of down and depressed. But how do you maintain your center in a world in which families that look like yours are under attack every day? You personally are under attack every day. How do you all deal with it and how do you deal with it with your kids?

[Governor Wes Moore]

You know, I one, I want people to know that black joy is a real thing and our family has it. And I know we're not alone. I know in so many of our communities we see it every single day. And I always believe I will never let anybody steal my joy. I will never let anybody take my happiness or my gratefulness. And as I always say, I never let, you know, people that don't matter too much matter too much. And I just believe that, especially in this time, I hold on to the things that are real. My faith is real. My family is real. My friends are real. My commitment to my mission is real. No one has the right or authority or frankly, the power to take that away from me. And so the reason that we are out and about and as people said, you know, he's governor outside. The reason I am governor outside is because I love what I do and I love the people I serve. And they deserve that. And I always want to be a reflection of them. We are joyful people. We are joyful community. This is a joyful state. This is a loving state. We take care of each other and we protect each other. And as we say in Maryland, we leave no one behind. And I want people to know that that is not a slogan and it's not something that we're doing for our hustle. It's something that is just a deep reflection of the people that I have the honor of serving in this role.

[Joy Reid]

Governor Westmore, thank you so much. We appreciate you having us here and letting us be in the the portrait room. I was suggesting different hairdo assortments that you might want to.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I'm picking up my wig. I'm picking up my wig.

[Joy Reid]

Think about the wig. I'll get a wig, you'll get a wig. We'll be wigged together. Thank you very much.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Thanks, Joy.

[Joy Reid (Host/Announcer)]

Many thanks to Governor Westmore and his staff. Stay tuned to the Joy Reed show for more in depth interviews and content related to what so many Americans are doing to try to save our democracy. Thanks for watching and don't forget to subscribe. Hit, hit like and subscribe and see you on the next.

[Joy Reid (Musical Outro)]

The Joy Reacho Getting back to the basics. Grassroot level Let me dig a little deeper with the shovel plenty can't tell the forest from the trees that I'm hard to detect Like a black hole in the dark injustice anywhere It's a threat to justice everywhere Let me make this clear I got a bone to pick and I'll never fear the threat of poverty they don't want to talk about it they rap the party so I'm a real talk about it for show.