That 90s Show: Epstein Trump, Clinton & R. Kelly | The Joy Reid Show LIVE!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joy Reid Show

Episode: That 90s Show: Epstein, Trump, Clinton & R. Kelly | The Joy Reid Show LIVE!

Date: February 5, 2026
Host: Joy-Ann Reid
Key Guests: Jason (co-host), Katie Phang, Paul Butler, Lev Parnas, Ellie Leonard, Rashauna Landfair, Chris Witherspoon

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Overview

This episode takes a hard look at the darker side of the 1990s, re-examining the era through the lens of current revelations about abuse, power, and celebrity culture. The show ties together ongoing political developments—like government crackdowns, Trump-era policies, and threats to elections—with the continued unearthing of abuses committed by famous figures such as Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, and R. Kelly. In particular, the episode explores the similarities between the protection powerful men enjoyed, the silencing of victims, and how this culture of silence affected whole communities.

A highlight is a harrowing and deeply moving interview with Rashauna Landfair, the first publicly known survivor from the R. Kelly scandal, who discusses her new book and her journey from victim to activist. The panel also dives into the recent Epstein files, the legal questions they raise, and the powerful forces still attempting to conceal or spin these cases.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Revisiting the 1990s: Glamor and Darkness

• The 90s are often remembered for economic growth, pop culture optimism, and the myth of endless opportunity.
• Joy notes a critical reassessment of the era: beneath the charm, it was rife with abuse—particularly in Hollywood, music, politics, and modeling.
• "We have to rethink everything that we believed about the 1990s." – Joy Reid [96:50]

Government Occupations, Trumpism, and Election Threats

• The episode covers the ongoing paramilitary occupation of Minneapolis, with 2,700 federal law enforcement in place—down from 3,000, but far above normal levels.
• Tom Homan (ICE): Announces drawdown, but stipulates it depends on "full cooperation" from city leaders and the community [06:11–08:05].
• Joy and Jason critique this as “state-sponsored extortion,” pointing out the linkage between ICE brutality and pressure on local leaders.
  • "Be very nice to us and maybe we'll stop killing you. But we're only going to stop killing you if you stop opposing this operation." – Jason [09:04]
• Rep. Robert Garcia vows accountability for federal abuses, referencing dehumanizing texts from ICE agents [11:29–13:53].

Trump, Bannon, and Martial Law Fears

• Trump pushes to "nationalize" elections, echoing anti-constitutional language [14:34].
• Steve Bannon: Openly admits that the occupation of blue cities and ICE mobilization around polling stations is about controlling the outcome of elections:
  • “Damn right. We're going to have ICE surround the polls come November ... If we lose the midterms and we lose 2028, some in this room are going to prison, myself included.” – Steve Bannon [15:37]

Jeffrey Epstein Revelations

• The latest dump of Epstein files reveals deep ties to many public figures, including Donald Trump and Bill Clinton.
• Bill and Hillary Clinton have requested public hearings on Epstein, likely as a counter to being scapegoated by Republicans [16:03].
• Joy elaborates on how Epstein, Maxwell, and others surrounded themselves with celebrities, some closer (Trump), others seemingly incidental (the Clintons).
  • "There's a difference between taking pictures with famous people and being friends with famous people." – Joy Reid [17:45]

Katie Johnson/Jane Doe Lawsuit Against Trump

• Legal experts (Katie Phang, Ellie Leonard, Paul Butler) dig into the lawsuits brought by “Katie Johnson” (a pseudonym) alleging Trump and Epstein abused her as a minor.
• Doc review and investigator testimony confirm that “Katie Johnson” and “Jane Doe” in two lawsuits are the same person [29:48].
  • "100% definitively, this is the same person. This is the same case." – Ellie Leonard [29:48]
• They discuss the pattern of dismissed/refiled complaints due to pro se representation and legal technicalities, rather than lack of evidence, and the highly specific, credible allegations in the lawsuits.
• The mystery of redacted and withheld DOJ (Department of Justice) files persists, raising suspicions of cover-ups to protect powerful figures [41:46].

Epstein Files: Media, Tech, and Misconduct

• Nellie Bowles (New York Times) and Peter Attia are frequent contacts in Epstein’s emails—raising questions about elite media and tech’s proximity to Epstein [46:57–49:16].
• Steve Bannon surfaced as an active participant, allegedly helping Epstein with PR and producing an image-rehabilitation documentary [50:17].
• The files show tech industry connections, including Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and facilitators of sites like 4chan and 8chan (where QAnon emerged), with Epstein supporting early AI and cryptocurrency discussions [55:12–57:43].
• French prosecutors raided X (Twitter) as part of CSAM investigations, raising further questions about tech complicity [55:12].

Rashauna Landfair Interview: Surviving R. Kelly and Reclaiming Her Story

Early Life and Grooming

• Rashauna was introduced to R. Kelly via her aunt, Sparkle, becoming his goddaughter at age 12–13 [67:05].
• She recounts being groomed by both R. Kelly and her aunt, who normalized inappropriate behaviors.
• "I felt terrified. I felt very embarrassed and very confused because something that was so vulnerable for me was humorous and a mockery to the world." – Rashauna, on the infamous Chappelle's Show skit [65:42]

Abuse and Isolation

• The abuse began with phone conversations and escalated into sexual abuse by age 13. Rashauna describes the secrecy, shame, and fear manipulated by Kelly to keep her silent [73:18].
• Her story highlights not only personal trauma but the wider societal tendency to ignore or humiliate black girls, even when they are clear victims:
  • "The world never treated me or saw me as a victim. So it was very difficult for me to see that for myself." – Rashauna Landfair [82:24]

Breaking Free and Advocacy

• She eventually broke away through spiritual strength and a conscious effort to get Kelly to “hate” her [80:52].
• She founded Project Refine, a mentoring organization for girls/women, emphasizing the need to educate communities to spot and prevent abuse.
• When asked if she hates Kelly: "I don't hate him. I hate what he did, but I don't hate him." [84:33]
• Her bottom-line message to R. Kelly: "I hope you can take accountability now and I hope you understand how many people you truly hurt." [89:11]

Reflecting on Celebrity Power, Silence, and Systemic Abuse

• Discussion with Chris Witherspoon reframes the 90s celebrity infrastructure as enabling abuse, emphasizing that artists like R. Kelly, Epstein, and others wielded god-like power, intimidating victims and silencing industry insiders [101:01].
• "Success, power, and perversion all went hand in hand. It was literally a part of the culture." – Chris Witherspoon [103:50]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On ICE/Minneapolis occupation:
  • "Be very nice to us and maybe we'll stop killing you. But we're only going to stop killing you if you stop opposing this operation."
    – Jason [09:04]
• On Trump's threats to election integrity:
  • "Damn right. We're going to have ICE surround the polls come November… If we lose the midterms and we lose 2028, some in this room are going to prison, myself included."
    – Steve Bannon [15:37]
• On the 90s and abuse:
  • "We have to rethink everything we believed about the 1990s."
    – Joy Reid [96:50]
• On celebrity protection:
  • "Our stars and our athletes were gods... there’s this really dark side to Hollywood with these mega celebrities that are shielded and protected."
    – Joy Reid [101:18]
• On victim-blaming and racialized invisibility:
  • "The world never treated me or saw me as a victim. So it was very difficult for me to see that for myself."
    – Rashauna Landfair [82:24]
• On survivor advocacy:
  • "I just want to bring awareness ... have some open dialect about growing and really prospering and just really teaching the morals that we should stand by to protect our children."
    – Rashauna Landfair [85:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:11–09:04 — ICE occupation of Minneapolis, Tom Homan’s conditions, Jason and Joy’s analysis
• 11:29–13:53 — Rep. Robert Garcia reads ICE agent’s texts, calls for accountability
• 14:34–16:03 — Trump, Bannon on nationalizing elections and occupation as political control
• 16:03–20:58 — Clintons, Epstein, and how the right weaponizes past associations
• 23:09–33:34 — Comprehensive breakdown of the "Katie Johnson"/"Jane Doe" lawsuits against Trump, legal insights
• 41:46–46:05 — Who's hiding what in the Epstein files; DOJ obfuscation
• 46:57–52:17 — Media and tech figures tied to Epstein; the implication of high-profile journalists
• 64:48–89:46 — Rashauna Landfair interview: from Chappelle’s skit to her book, breaking out, and healing
• 91:16–104:25 — Chris Witherspoon on R. Kelly’s power, industry complicity, and 90s celebrity culture
• 110:53–111:48 — Chris Witherspoon discusses his Vibes and Views series and ViewerCon event for black Hollywood

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Memorable & Emotional Moments

• [65:42] Rashauna’s heart-wrenching response to seeing her abuse made into a joke on Chappelle’s Show.
• [82:24] Rashauna describes years of not seeing herself as a victim due to society’s reaction.
• [103:18] Reflection on the vast, systemic nature of abuse—modeling, music, media, tech—all intersect in the 90s.

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Tone and Style

The tone throughout is direct, urgent, informed, empathetic, and—when appropriate—wryly humorous (as with the closing “moment of joy”). Joy and guests maintain a survivor-focused narrative and are unsparing in calling out systemic failures.

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Conclusion

This powerful episode asks listeners to reconsider the supposed innocence of the 1990s, confront uncomfortable truths about celebrity and power, and to draw urgent parallels to contemporary threats to justice and democracy. The interviews, especially with Rashauna Landfair, drive home the necessity of believing survivors and reforming the culture—media, politics, and community—that protects abusers.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Who's Watching Shorty? Reclaiming Myself from the Shame of R. Kelly's Abuse by Rashauna Landfair
• Project Refine (mentoring organization)
• Katie Phang Show (YouTube)
• The Panicked Writer Substack (Ellie Leonard)
• Lev Remembers Substack (Lev Parnas)
• PopViewers app (Chris Witherspoon)

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This summary focuses on the episode’s content; all advertisements, intros, and outros have been omitted for clarity and conciseness.

Transcript

[Joy Reid]

Okay.

[Jason]

Hello, hello, hello, hello, everyone. Happy Thursday, Junior, and welcome to the Joy Reid Show. Big ups to the chats and everybody that is tuning into the show on YouTube on substack. Also, our friends on Facebook and our stalwart Twitchies on Twitch. We want to recognize you all as well. We appreciate every single one of you, no matter where you're watching. We just appreciate that you're here. And also everybody that's listening to this as an audio podcast on platforms like Apple and Spotify, wherever you're listening, we just appreciate you. Be sure to hit that like and share button wherever you're listening to help spread the word and to help support this independent media venture. Also, it helps with the algorithm. The algorithm loves it when you hit like and subscribe. Also, if you comment, the more interaction that you give us, the more we know what you want, we know what you like, and also the more the algorithm is happy. So please do all of those things. But special big ups to everybody, especially our team TJRS members. Happy Black History Month. We've got a special live, you know, we do our little special chats for our team TJRS members. We are scheduling that as we speak. We've also got some other really special things that are planned for this month. Next Wednesday, one of the special things we've planned, the one and only Maddie J. Our favorite heiferologist. We tracked her down and she will take your pre Valentine's Day questions live. Presumably, she will even answer the inquiries of heifers. If you have a love question, a question about love or heiferology or heifer Nation, please send your inquiries to Ms. Maddie J. and write this down. Now, this is important. Ask Maddie j. @the joyreadshow.com so if you go to ask maddiejoyreadshow.com you can send your questions in so that she can answer them. Because who better to give you love advice? Do you know she's going to have Herman with her? Do you know if she's going to have what now? Herman? I don't know if Herman's gonna be there. I feel like Herman should be a part of it. And I think we will. We will make the inquiry because we care about what Herman is up to. And she also likes to keep an eye on what Herman is.

[Joy Reid]

That's what I'm saying. Because while she's on the air, Herman can't be free.

[Jason]

That is true. We can't have Herman just out there freebird while Ms. Maddie J. Is busy answering your question. So make sure that if you want to be a part of. This is our pre Valentine's Day show. This is going to be Wednesday, February 11th. We know it's not the day before Valentine's Day. We want to give you time to, to process her advice before you have to make decisions about what you're going to do for Valentine's Day. You're going to want to get your questions into Ask Matt TJ That's a S K M A T T I e [e-mail] and get your love questions answered right here on this show. Also, please don't forget to vote for the Joy Reid show in the NAACP Image Awards. You still have a few more days to vote. Jason's gonna put. There he go. He does. He did. He put the cute little QR code on the screen. We appreciate all of your support. All right. We've got more to come later in the show today. I just want to give a giant, a giant trigger warning to this show. Trigger warning, trigger warning, trigger warning. Because we are going to talk about the 90s in a way that most of us is sort of upside down to the way we remember the 90s. And we're going to talk a lot about some of these sort of abusive aspects of that otherwise really fantastic era in American history. So we're going to talk about that, including we're going to have on the author of the book written by the woman who was the first, first known, publicly known victim in the horrific R. Kelly scandal. She is the woman who was made infamous in a, in a certain video that involved bodily fluids and R. Kelly. She has written a book and she's reclaiming her story and her life. She will be here in the second hour of the show. And Chris Witherspoon, our friend from POP viewers from the Today show, analyst extraordinaire, Chris Withersman, formerly of thegrio.com, he was also interviewed R. Kelly back in the day, back when he was working for me at the Griot. He will be here to analyze that interview. So that's in the second hour of the show. But I want to first get to the headlines. Let's talk about some of the headlines here. The spending deal to fully reopen the government cleared the house yesterday so Donald Trump can sign it. Not sure if he signed it as yet. Y' all can keep me honest on that. Now, the bill fully funds a bunch of agencies for the rest of this fiscal year, but it funds the very importantly the Department of Homeland Security only through the end of next Week, Democrats are expected to use that time to challenge some of the absolute madness that you've seen on the ground during the operation in Minneapolis and in other states. Now, speaking of Minnesota, border czar Tom Homan announced the regime is pulling 700 of the nearly 3,000 occupying paramilitary troops out of Minneapolis. Here he is explaining that. But I want you guys to listen for the caveats. Here's Tom Holman.

[Joy Reid]

Ms. Martinez, these are images of texts.

[Jason]

So that's a one, that's a two. Oh, hold on a second. I don't. That. That is not it. That is not the one we were looking for. We'll skip that. We'll skip ahead. Tom Holman, I will just explain to you what he said. He essentially promised that they were going to pull these troops out of Minneapolis, but he said fully ending the occupation of Minneapolis. The is continued on the complete cooperation of the people in Minneapolis, the leadership in Minneapolis, that it will only happen once they get full cooperation. Let me just look at this and make sure that this is the right one that we're looking for. Yeah, it should be a two, Jason. It should be called a two. Home in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Home in Minnesota. That's what I have. Interesting. All right, so what you were playing is a three. So let's go on to that. Representative Robert Garcia is promising to hold the regime accountable. But let me just explain first before we play that what Tom Holman was saying. Oh, the one. You got your finger on it right now, Jason? That's it. Click that one. Yep. Back. Yeah.

[Joy Reid]

And law enforcement officials about increasing coordination in a lawful way between the county jails and ICE to avoid public safety threats being released back in the community. While we had our differences, one thing was clear. We all committed to public safety for all who live in the Twin Cities. We have made significant progress under the direction of President Trump, working with state and local officials here in Minnesota. And I expect that to increase in the coming weeks. We continue to have discussions. I'll have discussions this afternoon. Currently have an unprecedented number of counties communicating with us now and allowing us to take custody of illegal aliens before they hit the streets. Unprecedented cooperation. Now, say it again, this is efficient. Requires only one or two officers to assume custody of a criminal alien target, rather than eight or 10 officers going into the community and arresting that public safety threat. This frees up more officers to arrest or remove criminal aliens. More officers taking custody of criminal aliens directly from the jails means less officers on the street doing criminal operations. This is smart law enforcement, not less law enforcement. It's safer for the community, safer for the officers, and safer for the alien. This coordination also makes it far more safe for the Twin Cities. And as a result of the need for less law enforcement officers to do this work in a safer environment.

[Jason]

I.

[Joy Reid]

Have announced, effective immediately, we will draw down 700 people effective today, 700 law enforcement personnel.

[Jason]

Can I ask a quick numerical. Just clarification? I think it's my main question, please. So 700 leaving, effective immediately. How many will that leave here once that group is out?

[Joy Reid]

Right around 2000.

[Jason]

And what is the pre operation footprint?

[Joy Reid]

150. 150 is normal. I said back in March of this year, if the HAPO rhetoric didn't stop, I was afraid there would be bloodshed. And there has been President Trump and I somehow, Secretary Noem, none of us want to see any bloodshed. It is no doubt encouraging. And inciting certain people to violate the law, wanting to harm and actually harm law enforcement, their families, is unacceptable. My goal, with the support of President Trump, is to achieve a complete drawdown and end the surgeon as soon as we can. But that is largely contingent upon the end of the illegal and threatening activities against ICE and its federal partners that we're seeing in the community.

[Jason]

Let me trans that into human. The translation essentially, is be very nice to us and maybe we'll stop killing you. But we're only going to stop killing you if you stop opposing this operation. Now, if you note that Homan said we are now getting cooperation to pick people up in jails who already are convicted criminals or accused criminals being held in jail. So because now we're being allowed to go into the jails, then we're going to stop going into the streets and arresting protesters and brutalizing ordinary people who are not in jail. Did you catch that? Because if you're out in the streets brutalizing people until the city and state let you go in the jails and get people who are already adjudicated to have committed a crime. What you're saying is, we won't stop brutalizing your citizens until you let us go in the jails and get people who've already been convicted of a crime or being held for an actual crime. So we're going to brutalize innocent people until you let us go in your jails? You see what that is? That is not law enforcement. That sounds like extortion using murder and mayhem and violence as the extortive artifact. Right? It sounds like, to me, the right. That's what it sounds like. We're not going to stop killing you in the streets until you stop protesting us and until you let us go in the jails and get actual criminals. Now there's always been law enforcement cooperation. If you commit a crime and then you get adjudicated and you go to jail, you become deportable if you're an immigrant. So that's something that is seemingly normal. But he's saying, if you don't let us do it the way we want to do it and rummage through the files of the people in your jails, we're going to keep killing people in your streets. That sounds to sound like to me, I, I will note he also went on Laura Ingraham's show on Fox and threatened to, quote, make the protesters famous by showing their identities on tv. So just to summarize, Tom Holman's thinking here, the armed secret police cannot show their faces for fear of their safety or being doxxed. But the regime is going to put your face all over FOX so that MAGA can harass you, dox you, and threaten you to punish you for protesting them. So just wanna make sure that we understand where we stand. Also this week, Democrats are holding hearings laying out just how horrific these abuses that ICE and Border Patrol, both of which, by the way, Homan has in the past worn the uniform for, are committing. So now here is Congressman Robert Garcia, Democrat Robert Garcia, vowing to hold Homan, Trump, Noem and all the rest of the cabal accountable.

[Joy Reid]

Ms. Martinez, these are images of texts sent by the agent who shot you, and they're actually disturbing to read, but I think it's important for the public to see this. The agent linked an article about your shooting and texted. Read it. Five shots, seven holes. I fired five rounds and she had seven holes. Put that in your book, boys. Oh, well, it is what it is. Shit happens. This is someone that works for the United States government. I fired five rounds and she had seven holes. Now, he was talking about you. And it's our understanding that he was actually bragging about his aim, shooting an unarmed American citizen. Is that right?

[Jason]

Correct.

[Joy Reid]

I'm so sorry. Ms. Martinez, DHS has allowed the agent who shot you to remove evidence and to potentially destroy it. Is that correct?

[Lev Parnas]

Right.

[Joy Reid]

These people, every single one of them, has to be held accountable for the crimes, for the terror, and for the murders that are happening to our own people in this country. We're taking action today because the stakes could not be higher. We mourn both of these two Americans today and we find that these shootings cannot be justified. We also know they were part of a broader pattern of escalating unlawful violence by the Trump administration and DHS to intimidate dissent. Now, this administration then lied about the events and is now obstructing independent investigations to cover up misconduct and deny accountability to the victims and to the public. They've weaponized the Department of Justice to silence protesters, observers, and, of course, journalists. But I also remind folks that Donald Trump won't be president forever. Kristi Noem won't be the secretary forever. And when you serve this country in an elected office or in uniform, you swear an oath to the Constitution, you pledge to work for all Americans, you don't get a license to kill, and there's no absolute immunity. We're going to stand up for the rights of our communities, and we believe strongly that we need to hear the stories of those that are in front of us today.

[Jason]

Let me go to another headline. And amen to Congressman Robert Garcia, God bless him for holding those hearings. And there are others who are trying to hold these people accountable. Snap a picture of those six people he had on that poster for the Hague one day. Now another headline. The Supreme Court has cleared the way for California to proceed with its mid decade gerrymander to counteract what Trump ordered Texas to do in deleting districts giving that state's 4 million black residents and the 40% Latino population full representation ahead of November's midterms are basically denying them full representation. So keep that in mind as you listen to Donald Trump ordering Republicans. This is a five, Jason. To nationalize the coming elections. This is a five. Donald Trump.

[Joy Reid]

They vote illegally. And the, you know, amazing that the Republicans aren't tougher on it. The Republicans should say, we want to take over. We should take over the voting. The voting in at least many 15 places. The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting. We have states that are so now.

[Jason]

In the Constitution, elections are not nationalized. Elections are held in each state and each state is where you get your right to vote. Donald Trump now violating everything about the Constitution, saying, no, let's nationalize the election so we can take them over. Hmm. The Republicans and the White House trying to walk that back, but he keeps doubling down, saying, no, no, I mean it, I mean nationalize the elections. Unless you think that these, these test occupations of American cities are somehow separate from Donald Trump's demand and order to nationalize the elections. I want you to listen to Donald Trump's pardoned felon advisor, Steve Bannon, who's gonna figure up in the show because he's in the Epstein files. I wanna hear, want you to hear him combine what you are seeing in these blue state, blue city occupations. With the elections looming in November, here is Steve Bannon.

[Joy Reid]

Damn right. We're going to have ICE surround the polls come November. We're not going to sit here and allow you to steal the country again. And you can, you can whine and cry and throw your toys out of the pram all you want, but we will never again allow an election to be stolen. If we lose the midterms and we lose 20, 28. Some in this room are going to prison, myself included.

[Jason]

Uh huh.

[Joy Reid]

They're not going to stop.

[Jason]

We can leave it there. Yep. Yeah. Some in this room are going to prison, myself included, says Steve Bannon. Do you see it now? They are now admitting that the occupation of these blue states and cities is not about crime or daycare centers or fraud. Nope. It's about the election. Donald Trump has admitted it. Steve Bannon has admitted it. Don't let anybody say that. Joy Reid is being hysterical when I say it because they just said it. Let's get back to the headlines now. The Clintons, Bill and Hillary Clinton have agreed to testify about Jeffrey Epstein, but they want it to be public. From the New York Times. Bill and Hillary Clinton asked to testify publicly in House Oversight Committee hearings on the Jeffrey Epstein investigation, escalating their fight with Republicans a day before the House was set to vote to hold them in contempt of Congress. Now it's kind of wild how the Clintons back in center stage and the Republicans very much want them to be center stage on this whole Epstein file situation. Also wild how this whole 90s era, which Bill Clinton is such an avatar for, has become like one big bad flashback to a warped version of the 90s, which I and so many other Gen Xers remember as this age of possibility. Bill Clinton was in office, everybody seemed to be getting rich or at least have money in our pockets. Young people of every race, creed and color felt like any, any minute they could become a star or a millionaire or both. But there was definitely a dark side to that era. And it turns out that whether it was in Hollywood or hip hop TV or movies, music or fashion, the, the sex offenders and sex pests were prowling this country, taking advantage of young people's dreams and of that sense of possibility. Right? Whether it was Harvey Weinstein or whether it was the Diddler or whether it was John Casablancas and Jean Luc Brunel taking advantage of people who were aspiring models, Donald Trump also partying With Jeffrey Epstein, apparently Bill Clinton partying with Jeffrey Epstein. All of this stuff in the 90s, you're starting to see a whole new thing about that era, right? But the right is trying to isolate just the Clintons in that era as the only bad guys, which is kind of a tell because it definitely seems like Jeffrey Epstein and his predator pal and predator partner, Ghislaine Maxwell, were surrounding themselves with lots of famous people and taking pictures with them. Let's just really quickly show B1. Lots and lots and lots of people showing up in these Epstein files partying with Bill Clinton. I mean, Bill Clinton partying with Jeffrey Epstein. So you see Bill Clinton, you see Alan Dershowitz, you see Woody Allen, who seemed definitely to be friends with him. Epstein seemed to be taking pictures with lots of famous people, right? Kevin Spacey, you even saw him with Mick Jagger, Michael Jackson, Tom Diana Ross, Chris Tucker, Richard Bramson, the guy who owns Virgin Atlantic. Kind of creepy now when you say it now, but there's a difference, though, between taking pictures with famous people and being friends with famous people. Lots of famous people take pictures with rich people, or rich people take pictures with famous people because they have access to them, right? And they're in these photos because they're in proximity. There's Woody Allen. You're in proximity to rich people because you yourself are rich or famous. But, you know, only one of these people was friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Best friends. That would be this guy, Donald Trump. Sorry, Jason, you can pull this down. So that's the one who is besties with them, right? All these other people were friends with them or just took pictures with them. Doesn't mean they did anything. They were just doing the pictures. You're famous. You take pictures with rich people. Rich people take pictures with famous people. And the question of whether Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were doing more than just hanging out together, gawking at models, or partying together is even more urgent with the release of the latest Epstein file dump, which raised a lot of questions, including one about a woman named Katie Johnson. Katie Johnson, not her real name, apparently filed this lawsuit in April of 2016 while Trump was running for president, claiming that when she was 13 years old, she was sexually brutalized by not just Jeffrey Epstein, but also Donald Trump. That complaint is filed in April 2016, and then it was withdrawn after just a few months. And then in June of 2016, remember, this is the year that Donald Trump is running for president. A second case, this time filed under a Jane Doe that's filed making nearly identical claims and using the same alleged witness, a woman calling herself or a person calling themselves Tiffany Doe, who claimed to have been a party planner working with or for Jeffrey Epstein. But before the election, that case was also withdrawn, but not before this happened. That's okay. And this is before. Yep.

[Ellie Leonard]

That I have represented. She is living in fear. She has decided that she is too afraid to show her face. She's been here all day ready to do it, but unfortunately, she's in terrible fear. So we're going to have to reschedule. I apologize to all of you who came for this inconvenience. Thank you.

[Jason]

All right, so that happened. That press conference came just five days before the 2016 election in which, as I will remind you, Trump was running against what would have been our first woman president, Hillary Clinton, wife of Bill. And a month after, the Access Hollywood tapes just blew the campaign wide open, causing even more Republicans to drop their endorsement. Or causing some Republicans, I should say, to drop their endorsements of Trump and pushing his then lawyer, Michael Cohen, who had to handle all of this. Right. Getting rid of Stormy Daniels, paying her off. Getting rid of the Playboy bunny, paying her off. And then he had to ride to the rescue, convincing white Christian evangelical leader Jerry Falwell Jr. Who had sexual scandal issues of his own with the pool boy who was to endorse Trump and give Trump the evangelical seal of approval. Now, I also remember this time very well because Lisa Bloom was at that time supposed to book this Jane Doe on my then weekend show, AM Joy. So with the release of these so, so, so, so I have a very specific memory of this time. And with the release of now these cases in the Epstein dump, the question has come back up. Why did Jane Doe cancel that press conference? And is Jane Doe actually Katie Johnson joining me now, four great friends of the show, Katie Fang, attorney, analyst and host of the Katie Fang show, attorney, professor and legal analyst Paul Butler, Lev Parnas, who is the author of the Lev Remembers Substack. And our new friend of the show, Ellie Leonard, author of the very popular the Panicked Writer Substack. Thank you both all for being here. I want to start with you, Katie. I want to start with our lawyers first. You've now been through these cases, Katie. You're a lawyer, not me. When you read these two cases, do they strike you as potentially being from the same person? And is there any way we can know, since they have different case numbers, whether they are the same person? Yes.

[Ellie Leonard]

So you kind of have to go back to the basics on this, which is literally going through each of the lawsuits to see and track the allegations. And there are different actual allegations depending upon which iteration of the suit you look at. There were at least three. Three lawsuits that were filed. Well, if you go to the very first one, which is the one that you referenced back In April of 2016, it's written as if and consistent with somebody who's representing themselves, as we call it, somebody who's pro se. And that is consistent factually with what Katie Johnson, the pseudonym that was being used at the time, represents it. And the very last page of the six page lawsuit, it says plaintiff Katie Johnson appearing in pro per, which in California is basically saying appearing on her own behalf. It is interesting that the name Katie Johnson is not explained that in the lawsuit is being used as a pseudonym. If you look at the party section, Joy, on page two, it says in paragraph three, the plaintiff Katie Johnson resides in the state of California. But you know, somebody who's not sophisticated in the law wouldn't know. They wouldn't know that perhaps they have to put their names in quotes. They wouldn't know that. They have to necessarily say I am using the name Katie Johnson as a pseudonym.

[Jason]

Right.

[Ellie Leonard]

These are, these are techn. Technical things that are not fatal to a lawsuit and would explain why it reads in a very not sophisticated way. What does ring true. In my humble opinion, having dealt with civil and criminal cases for decades now, the allegations have a level of specificity that would be speaking in a first person tone and way and manner. What is also consistent with subsequent versions of the lawsuit that were brought when Katie Johnson was represented by lawyer or lawyers is the fact that there were independent witnesses that could corroborate the allegations that that were being made by Katie Johnson. That is particularly significant in my legal opinion because it is one thing, sadly, as we know for victims of sexual violence, abuse and assault, sometimes we tragically force the busload of nuns to have to come forward to corroborate what they're alleging. Right. Even though that's never the real legal burden of proof. But in this instance, from the very beginning of April of 2016 through the last version of the lawsuit, when she was represented by two different lawyers who were representing her as co counsel, which also as a lawyer, Joy, I think speaks to something, not just one lawyer, but two signed off on these cases. Right. And then you also had Lisa Bloom, lawyer number three.

[Jason]

Right.

[Ellie Leonard]

So there's lawyers that have actually had this person run the, the gamut of having to establish these claims and these allegations and her credibility. When you look at these. The fact that there were other people that were willing to put their names behind your claims, I think helps militate towards her telling the truth about what happened.

[Jason]

And Paul Butler, let me ask you, just as a former federal prosecutor, there is a alleged deposition. This is B5. Jason doesn't have any sound on it, so I can talk over it. That alleges to be this person, Katie Johnson, in which she is describing these just absolutely horrific allegations, which I will not repeat on this program. They're horrific. This is allegedly a 13 year old girl at the time of these things allegedly happening. And both of the girls in both of these two cases, this Jane Doe case, which was filed literally a month after this Katie Johnson case was withdrawn, they're both alleging similar things. One saying it happened at parties. One thing, it happened at the townhouse belonging to Jeffrey Epstein. Both say both men abused her. They alleged there's allegedly some sort of a deposition. Can you work out why, if these things were on paper and existed, why there was never a criminal case developed out of this?

[Joy Reid]

So there may have been and we wouldn't know about it based on the illegal redactions that the Justice Department has made. So for example, in this new batch, there's a prosecution memo from 2019, a few months after Jeffrey Epstein was found dead in his jail cell. When I was a federal prosecutor, before I charged anybody with a crime, I had to write a long memo to my boss laying out the evidence and what the pros and cons of bringing charges would be. So in this latest dump, we have this prosecution memo from the Southern District of New York. It states that Maxwell exploited victims as young as 14 and that he used lots of co conspirators to facilitate these crimes. People who schedule sexual encounters in both New York and Palm Beach. We know that the only other person who was charged was Ghislaine Maxwell. Why wasn't anybody else charged? Joy Pam Bonding knows because that's in that prosecution memo that was released. But that part is redacted. She didn't want the American people to see that. That's a violation of the Epstein Transparency Act. Congress meant what it said when it called for transparency. The only reason that anything is supposed to be redacted is to protect the privacy of the survivors, which they have not done. And to compromise and to compromise ongoing investigations. Tom lynch said there are no more ongoing investigations. There were 3 million documents released on Friday. Todd Blanche told us that they had 6 million. But again, we just have to take Todd Blanche and Pam Bondi's Word that whatever is in those other 3 million documents that they're holding on to, the American people don't have a right to see that.

[Jason]

Yeah, kind of hard to do that because they don't seem to be super credible. Ellie, welcome to the show. You've written a. This. You've been going through these files in detail so that the rest of us don't have to. So thank you for doing that. I'm very, very short way through it. You're a lot of the way further through it. Is there anything that's developed in what you've looked at personally that tells you whether Jane Doe and Katie Johnson are two different people or the same person?

[Ellie Leonard]

You know, I believed that they were the same person and just reading the two documents, but again, I'm not a lawyer, but coincidentally, about two weeks ago, I was reached out to by a man named Ed Opperman to do an interview on his podcast. And we were doing about something completely different. And mid. Mid recording, he said, do you know that I am the private investigator for the Katie Johnson case? And I about fell out of my chair. And I said, no, I did not know that. And I said, I have a lot of questions for you. I can't think of a single one right now. But when we started going over this in the last two days and I pulled up these two different documents, I knew that they were the same. But I thought, you know what? He would know for sure if they're the same. So I gave them to Ed and I said, are these both. Are Katie Johnson and Jane Doe the same person? Is this the same plaintiff? Is this the same case? And he said, 100% definitively, this is the same person. This is the same case. She had withdrawn her first. Her first paperwork, however you say it. She had withdrawn because she again had represented herself. She had mislabeled things. She was. She was going at it without information. And so she refiled as a Jane Doe in June of 2016. So for sure, 100% that those are the same people.

[Jason]

Let me. Before I come to you, Lev, let me ask Katie first, would it be unusual for someone to withdraw a case and then months later refile the case, but alter and shift some of the details? Is that unusual?

[Ellie Leonard]

No. And I want to clarify procedurally what happened. The first lawsuit brought By Katie Johnson April 26th of 2016 resulted in a judge dismissing that lawsuit in May. Not with prejudice. Meaning it wasn't. She could never come and refile the lawsuit. It's because the judge reviewed the allegations and because she was representing herself and she didn't know how to frame it per the causes of action or the claims. The judge entered a detailed order with an attached memorandum that said that a valid civil rights claim was not raised pursuant to the statutes that she had cited in her pro se claim. And that is the reason why the case hit a wall in terms of moving forward in May. But once she actually had representation, not only did it make sense from a confidentiality and a privacy and safety perspective to be represented by counsel and be a Jane Doe, but then you were able to clean up the way that you structure your factual allegations as well as the causes of action that you raise in a civil lawsuit. It is not as easy as we see on TV and in the movies to be able to navigate the legal system. And so when you do this, it wasn't that she withdrew it. The judge said, sorry, you didn't do it the right way, but you're always welcome to come back if you can. And that is how it ended up having the second and the third versions of the lawsuit. And listen, people's memories shift and things change. And just because you make an allegation in one version, you don't do it another, doesn't mean you don't have credibility. It just means you have decided to move forward based on the most current version of the facts that you are alleging. So it doesn't mean that something that she put in her April 2016 lawsuit didn't happen, but through counsel, literally somebody sitting down as a lawyer saying, if you don't have the evidence for this, maybe we shouldn't pursue this. Or you do have the evidence, but it might muddy the waters. Let's clean it up a little bit. Sometimes you tighten up the allegations, and that's why you end up with something a little bit different later on down the road.

[Jason]

That makes perfect sense. Left Parnas, let me bring you in here because you are the person who on this show has talked about Katie Johnson and Jane Doe as being the same person. I want to just caveat that Michael Cohen was. Was absolutely invited and is still invited to come on the show to talk about this as well. Because you know the allegation. I will not speak for him, but the question I think that he has raised is whether are they are the same person because he, per him, what he did is to try to look into this case and found that there was no person at the address that was given in the Jane Doe suit and that that is the suit he knows about, that this person did not exist at the address, that there was not a valid address. There's actually some evidence for that in these filings where there's an attempt to send mail to this address and it gets returned. And maybe that was part of why the case got dismissed. There didn't seem to be a valid address. Do you want to address that, Lev, and these questions of whether they're the same person?

[Lev Parnas]

Yes. Excuse me. First of all, thank you, Joy, for keeping the subject on Katie Johnson. I think it's extremely important. And with this incredible panel, look, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not somebody that digs into a thing. God, for people like Ellie, my son Aaron and Katie and Paul out here, that could really, you know, break it down and go into these Epstein files. Where I come in, Katie, is I had a relationship with Donald Trump and a relationship with Michael Cohen. And at some point, without taking too much time into and going into this history, but at some point, Michael Cohen was approached and asked by several reporters, including Ali, including Tara Palmeri and others, about this particular case, the Katie Johnson case. And Michael Cohen kept reacting to it very weirdly. He kept bringing up some kind of story, constantly changing it, talking about some kind of Jane Doe, that it's not the same thing. So me and Michael started having these conversations offline. And I was talking to him and I was saying to you, like, listen, like, you're being very defensive over here. Why aren't we trying to figure out, because even if Trump told you it's a different, if you, even if it was a different Jane Doe you were looking at, why aren't we sitting down and trying to figure out what did Trump tell you? What, why were you looking to this? What was going on at that time? What did you hear the other lawyers talking about? You're being, instead of being defensive, let's get together with all of them and let's remember what you were. You are part of it. You keep talking about Save Democracy. He kept, you know, talking, started telling me, you know, different stories, like, you know, I'm not going to talk about this. This is going to go away. And I. And that's where me and him started, like, moving away. Then all of a sudden, when the Epstein dump happened, I think the second dump, the. Katie, I'm not Katie. I'm sorry. Ellie and some of her subscribers did some incredible work and found in the Epstein files a letter from Michael Cohen's attorneys to the Southern District of New York, Asus saying that Michael Cohen, in 2019, when Epstein got arrested Michael Cohen was in prison at the time. And Michael Cohen said that he had, excuse me, evidence. And that's exactly what says on Epstein. He has information on Trump and Donald and Epstein. Now the ASU's didn't, for whatever reason either didn't take it because they were covering up, didn't want the information on document, they didn't want a 302 with what Michael Cohen was going to say or they didn't believe Michael Cohen. But from some of my sources, I know that there was another proffer done right afterwards because Michael really wanted to get out of prison and he went back to his attorneys and gave him something else. So when this started happening, I started approaching Michael Cohen even more, starting saying, hey, Michael, what, tell us what did, what were you going to tell the prosecutors to get your Rule 35? Now Katie's an attorney and Paul's an attorney and they'll tell you that. I just could tell you from my personal experience, to get a Rule 35, you have to give significant information enough to be able for something worthwhile for the, the, the asus to consider get getting you out of jail earlier can't be just some like, oh, I heard this and the grapevine, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Michael's an attorney, he knows that very well also. So, and I said to him, I started confronting him and Michael's response kept basically, instead of trying to figure out how to get to the bottom and the answer, it was attacking, it was attacking Ellie, it was attacking Zev, he started attacking me, he started attacking everybody that kept asking him questions. And basically, you know, what I started seeing is the same response. Just like Donald Trump, instead of trying to get to the bottom and the solution of what really happened here, he's deflecting. And that's what Michael Cohen started doing. And that's how we got here. Joy, I don't, you know, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Jason]

No, no, no. I was just going to say it just to be fair. Michael Cohen is not here to defend himself. So we're going to, I can only really limit it to your own experience that you've had. But I want to ask Paul, on this very issue, on if you're in prison and you want to get out of prison and you're giving an offer to the federal government saying, I have something for you that will mitigate my sentence, what kind of information would a prosecutor want you to give them? In order to give you that opportunity, what would you have to give them?

[Joy Reid]

You would have to give them information that would make or substantially advance an extremely important case. When people have been sentenced to prison, especially if they've pled guilty, their criminal case is over. The disposition is that they're locked up. So that rarely is revisited. And sometimes people will present motions, Rule 35, and other ways to try to get their sentence reduced. And prosecutors are skeptical about those. But if it's somebody who's as connected as Michael Cohen is, it's impossible to think that a prosecutor in good faith wouldn't have at least had a conversation. A proffer is what happens when you say to the person, if we are open to considering giving you a deal, what could you tell us? And it's all off the record at that point. It's nothing that could be used in a criminal case. But any prosecutor who was doing her job in good faith would have to have that conversation with Mr. Cohen or with his attorney.

[Jason]

Could it be if you have information saying that one of the cases against Donald Trump, knowing how Donald Trump thinks, that he is all about preserving himself? If I am a person that's jailed, but I know that he's innocent of a case, that I know that a person that is accusing him of something doesn't exist. They're a plaintiff that isn't real, that isn't a person that. It's a person that filed something, that they don't exist. If I give that, is that enough?

[Joy Reid]

Again, it doesn't take a whole lot to have the conversation. Look, when someone is locked up in prison, they're happy to have a conversation that could potentially result in their freedom. But, Joy, here's the thing. That information might be contained in the files that haven't been released. So the New York Times said that in this latest batch, there are 38,000 references to Mr. Trump, to his wife, to Mar A Lago. And that's in the 3 million pages that have been released. Again, in these 3 million pages that have not been released, there are certainly 302s about witness interviews that the FBI conducted with others. There are certainly declination memos in which prosecutors explain why they are not bringing charges against other people who have been implicated. So we know that this release has not been conducted in accordance with the law and in good faith by the Justice Department. So it could be very well that Mr. Cohen had a conversation with the FBI and there might be a memorial of that conversation in the files that have not been released.

[Jason]

Yeah, again, we would love to have that information, and we wish we had a government that was actually willing to be open, honest, and transparent. Unfortunately, we do not have that. I want to thank Paul Butler and Katie Fang. Thank you both for being here. Please subscribe to the Katie Fang show right here on YouTube. You can do that. You can support her great work. You can also support Paul Butler. He's an author. He's a great contributor. He'll be back on the show. We love having them on. So thank you both for being here. Really appreciate you. We're going to hang on to to our other guests just a little while while I very quickly thank one of our incredible sponsors. Just want to take a minute to let you know that this podcast could not be on without our sponsors. And we're being sponsored on tonight by Strawberry Me. Now, let me just ask you something. You think LeBron, Patrick, Mahomes, or Serena got to the goat status just by guessing? No, they did not. They all had coaching. Every pro athlete has a specialized coach watching their form, calling the plays and finding the blind spots that they can see. They can't see for themselves. This is exactly how they win championships. So if you want to also win, right, if you want to be ahead of the game, it doesn't hurt to have someone who can mentor you and give you a little coaching or even just give you a little bit of advice. So what are you trying to win in your career? And why try to do it without a coach? You're just grinding away, hoping for a promotion, trying to guess the right moves. You don't need to do that. You can actually get some help from Strawberry Me. Strawberry Me matches you with a personal, professional career coach who will break down your game film. They'll help you negotiate that raise, navigate the politics, and execute a game plan that actually works. And the cost? Well, think about it. One raise, one promotion, and this coaching pays for itself 10 times over. It's the best ori roi in the game. So stop riding the bench in your own life. Go to Strawberry Me joy today and get 50% off your first coaching session. That's Strawberry Me. Because pros don't guess. They get coached to win. All right, let's get back to our guests. Ellie Leonard and Lev Parnas are still with us. And before we get into what's in these new Epstein document dumps, Lev, I do want to get your response to Don Lemon, who went on Jimmy Kimmel's show. You did. Are the one who warned us on this very program that he was going to be arrested. And that did happen. He described the details of that arrest in Los Angeles. Here's that description.

[Joy Reid]

Swag bag from the thing. And I was walking up to the room, and I pressed the elevator button, and these. And all of a sudden, I feel myself being jostled and. And the people trying to grab me and put me in handcuffs and. And I said, what are you doing here? And they said, we came to arrest you. And I said, who are you? And then finally they, like, identified themselves. And I said, if you are who you are, then where's the warrant? And they didn't have a warrant, so they had to wait for the. Someone from outside, an FBI guy, to come in to show me a warrant on a cell phone. And by that time, I. I was, like, trying to, you know, figure out what was going on, to get my bearings and drop. They dropped all my stuff. My glasses had fallen on the floor. I'm like, I can't read that. So they had to pick my glasses up, and I read it, and still. What does that mean? You know, so. And then they. It was a bunch of guys, and they took me outside. FBI guys were out there. I mean, it was a host. Had to be maybe a dozen people, which is a waste, Jimmy, of resources, because I had told them weeks before and maybe once or twice that we would. You know, I think my attorney tried to contact them once, maybe twice, that I could just go in, and it would have to be the folks who were just working there that day, and they wouldn't have to have all these people following me around. It's more than just a waste of resources. So they grab you and they take you where? Well, you're right about more than just a waste of resources. They want that. They want to embarrass you.

[Lev Parnas]

They want to intimidate you.

[Joy Reid]

They want to instill fear. And so that's why they did it that way.

[Jason]

Take us inside the thinking, inside the White House. Because it seems to me that Don clearly is right. They want the spectacle of attempting to humiliate Don Lemon, who was anything but humiliated.

[Lev Parnas]

Yeah, I mean, he was the red meat for the base, basically. You know, I was speaking to some of my sources, like in the Benny Johnson world, and they were. They already were warned ahead of time that this was going. That's why, you know, I was. Kept calling you and letting you know that it was just a matter of time. They were prepping the. The. Basically the social media people in Trump MAGA world were already getting heads up that this was the meet where they're going to get Don Lemon. They're going to make this into a fiasco and turn it.

[Jason]

Should we Expect, should we expect to see video? They seem to do a lot of their stuff with a, their own camera person. Do you think they're going to start peddling video of this arrest?

[Lev Parnas]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Just a matter of time. They're going to edit it first, you know, and they're going to clip it, little clips. And of course you're going to see mega, you know, start spreading it. And just before, you know, because we have a lot and I know you're going to go remind me, I have some information about also what's going on in Georgia. Tulsi Gabber and some of the stuff there. Some very important stuff.

[Jason]

Absolutely, we want that. So I'm gonna put a pin in that for just a moment. I do want to ask Ellie about this Barry Weiss wife, the wife of Barry Weiss, because cbs, obviously the host of the Grammys, Don, was out there to cover and be a part of the Grammy Awards. It appears that her wife, Nellie Bowles is in the Epstein files. Now. She has claimed that she was just attempting to interview Jeffrey Epstein. What do you make of. And what do you know about. Not make of. How many times is she. Nellie Bowles FORMER New York Times JOURNALIST what's she doing in those files?

[Ellie Leonard]

You know, I mean, she's in there, I think something like 56 different times. And I was reading over today. So she was working for the New York Times at the that point. And she was actually introduced to Epstein by a woman named Masha Drakova. And Masha Drakova is the, if you know the story of Putin's kiss. She worked for the Putin youth conglomerate, whatever you want to call it, and then eventually became Epstein's PR person. And so she introduced Barry Weiss and Nellie Bowles to Epstein. And there was like one email that was very formal that said Nelly's going to come to your house, which I thought was odd for an interview. She was going to go straight to his house. But as soon as that one email was passed, the rest of them were very like overly friendly, lots of hahahahaha in the email written out and they, they got very cushy very fast. And then you start to see these, you start to see these other things where Epstein's saying, you know, Nelly's coming to this event, make sure you keep your hands off this other woman named Lana. And I don't, I can't pronounce her last name, but she ran the we Talks group and, and he just starts getting this very cozy Persona. And if you know Epstein from, you know, I'VE I've transcribed a lot of these emails and he's very much a chameleon. So his personality changes depending on who he's talks to. He's usually very stoic. He's very one to three word respons responses. But there is a few people where he's not. Where he just totally lets his guard down. One of them is Steve Bannon, but one of them is Nellie Bowles. He absolutely lets his guard down and gets very flirtatious with her. And it's a very, it's a very odd interaction and interesting now looking back.

[Jason]

Yeah, indeed. I will also note Peter Attia or Attia or Attia that is was recently hired by CBS News by Bari Weiss. Another one of her finds. He's also in the Epstein files. CBS has now pulled a 60 minute segment with the supposed health guru. After a whole bunch of interview a whole bunch of interactions that he had came to light. So that's very interesting. Weird, right? So. So he's in there as well. Many times I would say a lot assuming.

[Ellie Leonard]

Yeah, I mean, and now they have, I mean I will say the way that they have it set up, it doesn't search for things very well because these are like PDFs that have been turned into pictures that have been turned back into PDF. So they're not greatly searchable. But the DOJ has a search website where you can just type in somebody's name and quotes and it will tell you how many times that name shows up in the files. And that's how we have that giant number for Donald Trump. So a lot of these people, you can just go look for their names and it will tell you how many times they are in the files. And it's, it's a lot.

[Jason]

Let's lev talk about Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon shows up as not just in the Epstein files, but seemed to be either trying to upgrade Epstein's image, clean up his image. He was making apparently a documentary about him. Jason, I'm going to skip to C5 here. This element, this is part of this Bannon, I guess it was like for a documentary, but he had like 19 hours of tape on Epstein. Here he is asking him about whether his money's dirty.

[Joy Reid]

Again, I'm privileged enough to have people around me who've given lots of philanthropic gifts to institutions of higher learning. And when I said the impact, how do you judge the impact of your giving? And we sat down and said no, really, new ideas have come come out. And I realized that of course it hasn't come out because we've been looking at using science and mathematics and it's the wrong tool. It's obvious institutions that are set up and try to put forward knowledge and understanding and truth, should they take your money? Derek. Derek Bach at Harvard said, taking money for good causes is a good thing. So if Hitler took all the gold out of the teeth of the Jews and said, I want to give this to Heidelberg University to fund the Leibniz chairs so that I can study high energy physics, Derek Bok would say that was fine. Again, these questions are questions where good people on both sides, like your Charlottesville could differ. I don't know the answer. So tell us the two, give us the two answers. The one answer, why it shouldn't be and then one answer. Derek Bock says, I'll take, essentially take cash from anybody because I got so many projects, so many good guys, and this is the way I'll do it. So I'm indifferent to where the cash comes from. Money's money. And if I got good guys, I'm the fiduciary says these are good people and this is good research. Okay, I'll take the cash from however, from any source, including you. What's the other argument? Let me give you that. I know in my case, is your money dirty money? If you live. I just asked a question. Is your money dirty money? No, it's not. So in fact, why is it not dirty money? Because I, I earned it.

[Jason]

That was in 2019. Lev. Well, after more than a decade after he was convicted of a sexual abuse claim that was written off as prostitution. But after. Right before he was about to go back to prison.

[Lev Parnas]

Yeah. And the other interesting part that literally right before I came on, I saw there was another breaking news. One of the Krasenstein's brothers found an email that Epstein had the Trump family, Trump boys over 16 days prior to the inauguration in Mar a Lago. Yeah, just literally right before I came on. Ellie, did you see that? Did you?

[Jason]

I did not see that.

[Lev Parnas]

Maybe, maybe you could take a look at while we're on here.

[Ellie Leonard]

Okay, let me look, let me look.

[Lev Parnas]

Yeah, because. Yeah, but you know, Ellie's quick with that, but yeah, Steve. First of all, Steve Banham plays all sides. Second of all, the interesting part that you said, like when you mentioned it, that he, it was, it was a documentary to rehabilitate him. But if you take a look rehabilitating what Steve Bannon is a far right platform. So that means they were rehabilitating and getting information against Democrats. They Were this was also being done at a certain time right when Trump is in office. Right. 2019. Right prior to right before his arrest. There's a lot of things being said in those videos that we don't know. A lot of it's cut. We haven't seen all there was over 19 hours video. You're also starting to see certain things pop up in the, in the dump that I've seen a couple of them with Bill Barr's name in it. I mean being mentioned and some of that stuff. So what I'm saying to you, there's just so much that is Lincoln and being uncovered right now literally every day. Like I spoke to my son earlier today. He told me he only has been able to go through a hundred thousand literally. Right.

[Ellie Leonard]

Only.

[Jason]

Only.

[Lev Parnas]

Right. Only like he hasn't stopped 3 million. I mean Ellie, Ellie. I don't know how many. I mean it's just amazing. Yeah, but, but that's what it's meant for Joy. Part of their whole strategy is to look for the needle in the haystack. They threw you all of this because there is important stuff that they couldn't hide. They can't just hide everything and scrub everything. And that's why we're starting to see I think the most important two things that we've seen that is being happening is a the intimidation factor continues. The fact that they put out these pictures and unredacted names and videos and pictures of maker that was specific, that was purposely done and I'm hear this was not done by accident. This was done. This is continuous torture, continuous, you know, pressure on these, I mean victims and survivors, you know the fact that they're covering up. If you take a look at some of these outrageous emails that say some of the craziest thing like nine year old girls and all of this type of stuff I'm not even going to mention and they, and they like black out the person the email, you know, they redact the person it's coming from. I mean it's in black and white. I mean so. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Jason]

Well, I was going to say you also have what really does look like and are both theater respondents. I'll start with you Ellie on the tech bro aspect of it. So right. We know French prosecutors have now raided the offices of X Twitter, newly called X. They did that on Tuesday as part of an investigation into allegations that include spreading child sexual abuse images and deep fakes that are made by Grok, which is Elon Musk's AI. So so that happened. And then you add to that the fact are a bunch of these tech who show up in the Epstein files with lots of emails and interaction seeking meetings with Jeffrey Epstein. And we're talking Elon Musk, we're talking Bill Gates, we're talking Elon Musk, all of them. What was going on there?

[Ellie Leonard]

Well, he was, I mean he loved the tech bros. He was. You see, actually a lot of these people were staying at his New Mexico residents because they, they'd stay out there on the way over to like TED talks on the west coast. He was meeting with the creators of like 4chan and 8chan right before they were launching things like QAnon and saying these are great kids, we should get to know them. And sending emails out about like the creators of these really, really horrible platforms. You know, when you look at something like now where obviously Elon Musk is in the files, we know that he's there. It's very ironic that he sent out what he did last year.

[Jason]

I'm sorry, I don't, I don't mean to cut you off, but I need you to roll back just a moment because 4chan and HN, for those of you who are not familiar, the people who are not steeped in this sort of right wing online world, just to be clear, 8chan and 4chan, but mostly HN, that is where the Q Anon conspiracy emerged from, which was that there is a global pedophile ring. They effectively created the QAnon conspiracy theories. And then you're saying that these same people who created the conspiracy theory that Democrats were running a giant global pedophile ring, that actually they were talking to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Ellie Leonard]

They were literally at his house. And you have like the launch date of these websites and then you have the date of the email saying this guy just left my house. And it's like four days before. And he's going, this kid's really cool. He's 23 years old. You should meet him. He has these great ideas I think we should push. Like he was really, really into these, the this whole tech world and this whole idea of AI and this whole idea of bitcoin. He was involved with all of those things.

[Jason]

And Palantir we're going to get into in another show because I would understand that the giant surveillance state that they're erecting. Jeffrey Epstein was on the ground floor. Before we let you go, Lev, you said you had some news on Georgia. Please, please share.

[Lev Parnas]

Yes, so, yes, definitely. First of all, I'm hearing that there was actually conversations in the White House about six months ago, give or take, where Trump tasked, put a group together, tasked Tulsi Gabbard was going to lead it with John Radcliffe from the CIA, head of the CIA. You have Pam Bondi there and you also had Cash Patel. And it was what they call election reform. To go into Georgia was the first state to go into basically use that as a pro, as a, as a, an example. What I'm hearing that there are indictments coming shortly in Georgia which will then lead into changes that they're going to do because this, this, this notion of Trump saying that they want to federalize the 15 states, it's a code word. It's basically he understands that he cannot the Constitution. The Republicans, though, they won't go with them to do it. So what they're, what they're trying to do is right now in Georgia, basically go out there and show that you can't hold a fair and square election because of who's counting the votes and how they're being done and implement a certain way besides just having like ice at the polls and intimidation, but actually changing the way from getting rid of mail and voting, but actually change the way who's counting and how the votes are going to be counted and tallied in 15 of those states that Donald Trump is mentioning. And it's a major push right now and you're going to start seeing more action more in day. But I'm hearing indictments are going to start coming soon in Georgia too, to target, start it all off.

[Jason]

Yeah, that would be known in sort of common language as martial law. So what they're saying, chats, multiple chats here, it seems that they're going to attempt to put the 15 states that Republicans are most vulnerable to losing in and that Trump lost in his most vulnerable to losing in, in 2028 when he tries to run for the third term. They're going to put them under martial law and they've already started the planning and run the game, sort of the pre game in Minneapolis, Chicago, Washington D.C. and Los Angeles. See what you're seeing because they're not being subtle. Ellie Leonard, thank you so much. Lev Parnas. We're going to put the links to both of your incredible sub stacks, which are super valuable in this moment. We're going to put both those links right there in the source, in the description of the show so that people can follow you. Thank you so much.

[Lev Parnas]

Thank you.

[Jason]

God bless.

[Lev Parnas]

Thanks for having us.

[Jason]

Thank you very much. Wow, that was a pretty powerful first hour, everyone. Wow. Wow. And wow. If you didn't believe before, if you thought that I was paranoid and that Jason was paranoid, when we're talking about the fact that we're going to be running an election in November under martial law and that November is too late to prepare, if you don't know, now you know. Let's take another quick break and thank our other great sponsor. Celebrations don't start with the clean clinking of glasses.

[Ellie Leonard]

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[Joy Reid]

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[Ellie Leonard]

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[Jason]

That is correct. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, I though I am young and acute and fresh, do not necessarily bounce back the next day like I used to. I have to, you know, make a decision. I have to make a choice. I either have to have a great night or a great next day. That is until I discovered pre alcohol. Now I in this day and age, now that I know that it exists, I will have my pre alcohol before drinks. And then I notice a difference. The next day I wake up feeling fresh and ready to work my 20 hour day. Now look, I won't lie, I was a bit on the fence about pre alcohol initially, but then over that New Year's break I did give it a try and ooh, what a difference. I had my pre alcohol before enjoying my security and woke up the next morning feeling on top of my game. Now here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in your gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not actually dehydration that is to blame for those rough days after drinking. But pre alcohol, it goes in there and produces an enzyme that breaks this byproduct down. So if you just remember to make pre alcohol part of your hangout routine, Voila. You feel so good the next day. Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink Zbiotics is the first genetically engineered prebiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle those rough mornings after drinking. So if you're ready to give it a try, and I do recommend you give it a try, just go to zebiotics.com joy now you will get 15% off your first order when you use joy at checkout. Plus it is backed by 100% money back guarantee so there's no risk. Subscriptions are also available for maximum consistency. So just remember to head to zebiotics.com joy and use the code joy at checkout for 15% off. We thank you Zebiotics for sponsoring this show. Okay, guys, you surely remember this skit from Chappelle's show back in 2003. It was a long time ago. We're going to do it without sound, but you remember what it was. This was our. This was an R. Kelly parody in which Dave R. Kelly and talking about doing something very vulgar involving bodily fluids to women. This was one of the most popular skits from the show. It made people laugh. But while America was laughing, that skit represented a moment of abject humiliation for an 18 year old girl at the time. Her name was Rashauna Landfair, who writes about this moment in her new book. And she writes this quote here I was just a few months out from the trauma of the whole world witnessing the disgusting things Robert Sylvester Kelly R. Kelly to you did to me. And that he compelled me to vehemently deny. And now there was a whole Chappelle's show skit poking fun at my humiliation. And all of you who laughed at the punchline would argue you weren't laughing at me. But it didn't matter. The damage was done. This is a young woman who survived not just that humiliation after that video of her shameful abuse as a 14 year old girl. She survived not just that, but also the trial in which she felt bullied and terrified into getting on the stand and lying and claiming it wasn't her in the video so that R. Kelly could get away with it, only to later see so many other women also damaged by him. And she has bravely come forward to tell her story. And Rashauna Lanfair joins me now. Her book, who's Watching Shorty? Reclaiming Myself from the Shame of R. Kelly's Abuse is being released this week. She's also a mom and the founder of Project Refine, a mentoring effort for girls and women. Rashauna, welcome and thank you so much for being here. Hi.

[Rashauna Landfair]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Jason]

So your book, first of all, it starts out as really a huge flashback to the 1990s. I mean, I think so many of us remember that era. And I said at the top of the show that it was this sort of age of possibility, you know, and you at that time are a 12, 13 year old girl. You're a hip hop shorty, you love basketball, you're a tomboy and you're in this, you know, this group and you're 12 and 13 and already sort of experiencing kind of what it's like to like have people know who you are and you wind up meeting R. Kelly. So I want you to start just by first, before we even get to how you met R. Kelly, if you could just describe, like, how you felt when you saw that skit by Dave Chappelle on the Chappelle Show.

[Rashauna Landfair]

I felt terrified. I felt very embarrassed and very confused because something that was so vulnerable for me was humorous and a mockery to the world. And it really just exposed me and.

[Jason]

Made me feel humiliated when the video itself came out. How did you find out that the real video, not the, not the. Not the sort of joke and, you know, and I'm quite sure Dave was not attempting to attack you. He was really making fun of R. Kelly just to, you know, in his defense. But when the real video of what R. Kelly did to you came out, how did, how did you find out that video existed? And what were your immediate thoughts?

[Rashauna Landfair]

Oh, I was pretty empty inside. I was very ashamed. And I was also really scared. For so long, this was like a huge secret. And I had been groomed to, you know, never admit this, never, you know, make it to be true about us. So I was. I was scared more than anything.

[Jason]

How did you meet R. Kelly, your aunt? You come from a musical family. You talk in the book about how your dad was a musician who wound up doing some music with R. Kelly. Your aunt is the artist we know as Sparkle. How did you wind up meeting R. Kelly yourself as a 12, 13 year old girl?

[Rashauna Landfair]

I was introduced to Robert by my aunt Sparkle. Again, we were a very musically inclined family. We were all, you know, kind of like at the peak of our success during that time. And she gave me the introduction to Rob.

[Jason]

There's a part in your book where you talk about some of the advice that your Aunt Sparkle would give you, which to me struck me as a very, very strange thing to say to a girl who had not yet experienced puberty or her cycle. And she talked about what you ought to do in terms of grooming. And we don't have to get into graphic details about the way you should groom yourself in that area. When she's telling you that that's something you should think about, and you were so young, what were you thinking? Because that sounded to me like grooming.

[Joy Reid]

Yes.

[Rashauna Landfair]

I didn't look at it as grooming. During the time she was somebody who I looked up to, she was always, you know, the star in the family, very beautiful, very gifted. So when she, you know, advised me to do things like that, I didn't look at it as grooming. I just thought, you know, that's the way to keep up with yourself. So I wasn't looking at it like that at the time.

[Jason]

But what about her telling you things about the way to prepare yourself to have relations with a man like that? When you were. When she was telling you that as a 12 year old, what were you thinking?

[Rashauna Landfair]

I was confused. I mean, I was, you know, going through puberty at the time I was getting into boys. So, you know, I thought I was learning the ropes of life, of, you know, intimacy and things like that.

[Jason]

Like, I.

[Rashauna Landfair]

It was a little. I don't know if it was embarrassing, but it was a little uncomfortable. But I just thought that, you know, this is the upkeep when you're growing into womanhood like that happens at this age.

[Jason]

Your aunt, who I should note, has issued statements saying, denying that she attempted to groom you in any way. I will note that that is something that she has said publicly. She also at one point advised you when you were starting to, you know, as you said, become popular, you had this group that you were part of, that you were the rapper for the group. Um, and she said that you ought to try to make R. Kelly your godfather and that to make him your godfather, you ought to go into the studio and sit on his lap. What did you interpret her to mean by that? And then what happened when you actually did go in and sit on his lap at the studio?

[Rashauna Landfair]

When she initially said that, it was very odd for me. Like, I had never sat on his lap or even thought to do that. So, you know, I kind of felt like, okay, maybe that's the cool thing to do. Maybe that's, you know, the warm way to introduce what I needed to say. So I, you know, did what she advised. And when I did it, I was nervous to do it, but I followed through. And when I did it, he didn't really have a reaction to it. He seemed to be very comfortable, from what I remember.

[Jason]

And you were how old at that time?

[Rashauna Landfair]

I was about 12 or 13 at that time.

[Jason]

And how long was it between that time when he becomes your godfather? Did you start having regular phone calls with him that you in the book describe as almost? He's like another friend of yours. You're talking to him on the phone like you would talk with a boy at school.

[Rashauna Landfair]

Right. So he did have a busy schedule, but anytime time permitted, like I would be calling or he would be calling, and it just be became, you know, an open line for communication. Like, I would be trying to see if he was Playing basketball for the night or gonna be at the studio, you know, that was kind of like routine for his schedule. So I, you know, that's how our communication kind of unfolded into something a little bit more personal.

[Jason]

And it wasn't just talking the phone. He was taking you out to eat, he was letting you play basketball with him on private courts. Was he sort of treating you like you were a friend? I mean, this is a man in his late 20s and you were 12, right?

[Rashauna Landfair]

And that's another thing I think is very important when people are still humiliating me. I was a 14 year old girl and Robert is 18 years older than me. So not only was he somebody I looked up to, we did have a lot in common. And I was used to being around the industry. So the things, you know, seemed and felt normal at the time.

[Jason]

And I will note that you note that Sparkle, your aunt is 16 years older than you in real life and nine years older than you in her theatrical age. Right? Her sort of stage age. She's nine years older than you, but in real life she was 16 years older than you. She was your favorite aunt because you were so close. Is that what made it seem not odd to have another adult her age who admitted that she had actually been intimate with R. Kelly? Is that why it didn't seem weird to you to hang out with an adult?

[Rashauna Landfair]

It did not seem weird at all. You know, Robert was introduced to me as a friend and family. And in the very beginning, that's how he handled, you know, the situation. You know, so I trusted him, I trusted her. And I was just happy to be a part, you know, of that environment.

[Jason]

How long was it before the going out to the Cheesecake Factory and playing basketball and going to the studio to be able to listen into the work that he was doing? How long before it shifted from that to him having very sexual conversations with you on the phone?

[Rashauna Landfair]

It wasn't long at all. I can't remember an exact time frame, but it felt like seconds later, you know, the moment he, we became family or, or closer. The signs. I. I now can look back and see the signs of, you know, how soon and quickly things escalated.

[Jason]

And, you know, you describe in the book, and it's chilling the way it goes from you just talking about, you know, your grandmother, explaining what to do when you first got your cycle, to talking to Robert Kelly on the phone, and then him immediately going to, you know, very explicit conversations with you on the phone. How long before that became a physical relationship and what happened? I can't even Call it a relationship. You were a child. How long before you were first assaulted by him?

[Rashauna Landfair]

The assault started when I was 13 years old. And, you know, it started out with phone sex. It started out with, you know, his tone changing over the phone or maybe the time of. The calls at the time of day were a little bit, you know, more like, are you alone? It started out very, very subtle, and then it became sexual shortly after.

[Jason]

Did you tell anyone?

[Rashauna Landfair]

I did not. I was not comfortable speaking to anyone about it for my own self. And also before he got to the point of feeling comfortable enough to do that with me, he made sure that I understood the power of secrecy and how much it would ruin his life, his career, his family if I repeated this to anyone. And I also felt like I would lose him, you know, as a friend or as a person.

[Jason]

And, I mean, I think people really have to understand. And what you do so well in your book is you really take us to where not just a child, but where a child in that era would be, because everyone, you know, everyone was seeing Salt and Pepper. They were seeing all these other young people who were becoming stars and celebrities, and the idea that one of these stars would be your friend and give you an opportunity when you were already a performer, you were already in a group, you know, you can you really walk us through how you were pulled into this world and felt, you know, sort of privileged almost to be a part of it. But the exploitation was. It was unsubtle. It was unsubtle. And did you get the sense that your Aunt Sparkle, who had been so bright, explicit with you about things that were sexual, did you get the sense that perhaps if you told her that she might be, I don't know, envious that she might be mad at you? Why? Why? Why wouldn't you share it with her since you two were so close and talked about things that were so kind of adult?

[Rashauna Landfair]

There were a lot of times that I wanted to. I did feel like she and I were friends in that way, and I was really close a lot of times, and feeling like I could speak to her about this, you know, like it was a crush, you know, she kind of saw Robert and I bubbly, you know, when we would all be hanging around. But when he groomed me a little bit more and conditioned me a little bit more than I felt comfortable, you know, sharing that with her, I. I thought it was just best to honor what he was saying and just strictly keep it between he and I.

[Jason]

So in 2008, R. Kelly does this interview with our friend Ture. And Ture just explicitly asks him, because you write in the book that R. Kelly had a reputation, that there were rumors about him liking, quote, unquote, young girls. This was not something, you know, that was completely unknown to people, at least in Chicago, in the community, people kind of knew, right, that there was something about him having a proclivity for young girls. So in this interview that takes place, I believe after the allegations against him went away because you did not testify that he done this to you and he was able to escape those charges. And I will note for the audience, this is literally the same time that Jeffrey Epstein was offending also against young girls in New York and in Florida. So these things are happening contemporaneously for those of you who are following, because we've been talking about Epstein in the show. Shauna, let me play a little bit of this R. Kelly interview with Ture.

[Joy Reid]

Wondering about you. Do you like teenage girls? When you say teenage, how are we talking girls who are teenagers? 19, 19 and younger? I have some 19 year old friends, but I don't like anybody illegal, if that's what we're talking about. Underage. Some people think that you like underage girls.

[Jason]

What do you say to them?

[Joy Reid]

Well, those people, those people that don't know Robert, they don't know me, you know, so I usually don't get into what people think about me, you know, because all my career, you know, even before the trial, people have had their opinions about Robert, you know, and that's probably because it has a lot to do with me. I kind of still shy away from the crowd, you know, because I'm always in the studio, digging deep into the basement all the time of my house, creating music. So, you know, people when they don't know you and they can't really touch you like they could someone else, they seem to form opinions or have thoughts about you that they like to, you know, think.

[Jason]

We can leave it there. When you saw that interview, Rashauna, at what stage was your relationship with r. Kelly In 2008, when that interview happened.

[Rashauna Landfair]

We were very locked in, as you would say. We were very acquainted. We were in a relationship, so to speak.

[Jason]

So when you heard him say that he doesn't like anyone illegal and you knew that your relationship with him began when you were 13, did you confront him about it?

[Rashauna Landfair]

Oh, I would never have done that. But in my mind, I confronted him many times. In my mind, I had so many questions of if this was so real and so normal, why couldn't you speak the truth. Why did you have to, you know, put some numbers on the age of women that you really are attracted to?

[Jason]

How did the relationship go from this initial abuse? It's just simply illegal. What was happening, what he was doing to you to what you believed was a relationship, and what was that relationship like?

[Rashauna Landfair]

Can you repeat the question for me?

[Jason]

Yeah. How did you know? You're. You're somebody who was abused by him at 13, but by 2. By 2008, you believe you're in an actual relationship with him, right?

[Rashauna Landfair]

This is true. I believe that I was in a relationship with him. And, you know, he also had a lot of other women that he entertained and, you know, he kept around. He kind of used women around him to manipulate each other, to want and desire him more or to go to the next levels and the next heights of, like, his sexual desires and fetishes. So the abuse would start when, you know, now I have feelings. Now I'm emotional. Now I'm internalizing things differently. And so I would. We would have arguments, or I would give pushback or have questions about certain things. On top of being frustrated about keeping this a secret, but then having to sit in the studio in the session with someone that he's pretending, you know, to take attention away from he and I to another woman. So it would just. It. It quickly escalated and started from situations like that.

[Jason]

How did you finally escape from him?

[Rashauna Landfair]

I prayed really hard.

[Jason]

Yeah, it's okay.

[Rashauna Landfair]

And I said, God, if you just take the emotions away from me or just take me, either one is fine. And I just looked out the window, and I saw sunshine. And I just couldn't do it anymore. And I just kept praying and I kept believing, and I kept. I did.

[Jason]

I was so desperate.

[Rashauna Landfair]

I did everything I could think of to make this man hate me. And I, like, I broke every rule.

[Jason]

And I did everything I could do. I hear you. And I mean, I. I just. If you could, Jason, you could just put up D5. Because I just think people need to really think about, you know, before you make any judgments about anything that happened in this young lady's life. She's the girl in the middle in that video. She was in a group called for the Cause. You guys were touring, you know, in Europe. You guys were popular in Germany, but you were a baby. And I don't think anyone could look at that face, that baby face. You're the girl in the middle. I believe in the video on the left and on the. On the right, on the album, you are to the Right. But you're. You can see, you're a little kid. You know, are you able to at this point? And this book really does. I think it is part of your healing process. You write in the book you're not keeping anyone's secrets anymore. And this isn't about going after anyone. It's about your own healing process. Have you owned, you know, the reality that you are a child and that you are not at fault for any of them? This.

[Rashauna Landfair]

It took a lot of time for me to get to that point because the world never treated me or saw me as a victim. So it was very difficult for me to see that for myself. But, you know, when you grow up, you become a mother and you understand age and, you know, when I look at that picture, the things that people say and the way they treat me, they don't treat me like I was that person. They blame me for rocket sexual preferences and fetishes. When this was a person I lost my virginity to, I knew nothing about sex. I grew into his sexual behaviors. So to feel treated that way, to feel disrespected that way, it took a long time for me to see myself as a victim.

[Jason]

Yeah. When you saw the Gayle King interview, and this was in 2019, and again, I'm always sort of struck by kind of the timing of this. In 2019 is the year Jeffrey Epstein was finally prosecuted at a federal level for what he was doing. And Gayle King that same year, interviews R. Kelly, and he has this meltdown, you know, where she's saying, robert, Robert. And he's jumping around the studio because he's being. He's been caught. And so many women at that point have come forward. It's not just you alone. There are lots and lots of women, and many of whom were also teenagers at the time he started abusing them. When you saw that video, did it give you a sense of vindication? Look, people know who he is now, and his reaction. If you. If you put it up there, Jason, you can just keep the video, the sound down. When you saw that, did you feel vindicated?

[Rashauna Landfair]

Well, first I thought it was very theatrical of him. It was a typical, you know, moment for him to overly express that he wasn't this monster that he truly was. And when I heard the girls speak also, I knew everything. Every way he coached them, you know, like. And here he was again, still not taking accountability, just still trying to put the attention on something totally different than the actual matter at hand.

[Jason]

Do you hate R. Kelly?

[Rashauna Landfair]

I don't hate him. I Hate what he did, but I don't hate him.

[Jason]

You have. Oh, no, please. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[Rashauna Landfair]

No, no, no. I just. That was it.

[Jason]

You have taken what happened to you and not only written this book, which I think is incredibly brave, by the way, but you've also decided to try to work to help other young women. You formed an organization whose goal is to help young women who may be in the situation that you were in. Can you talk a little bit about Project Refine?

[Rashauna Landfair]

Yes. Project Refine is really just a way for me to turn my pain into purpose. It's something I'm very passionate about. Like, in our communities, we don't teach for signs of pedophilia or molestation. It's kind of, like, kept a secret. And so I just want to bring awareness. I just want to create, like, a platform for young girls and women to just be themselves, have some open dialect about, you know, growing and really prospering and just really teaching, you know, the morals that we should stand by to protect our children.

[Jason]

Yeah. And I mean, it is. It is. It's coincidental, right, that we're seeing, you know, this. These Epstein revelations come out, and many of these girls were your age, the same age that you were. And it wasn't just, you know, the young black girls who wanted to be stars and were around R. Kelly. It was the young white girls and girls who were impoverished in Florida who wanted to be models. Like, it just felt like this era was an era when there was so little respect for girls, for children. Do you. When you look back at this era, do you ever think, wow, this was a dumpster fire for girls because girls weren't respected.

[Rashauna Landfair]

It really was. I definitely agree with that. And it's just when it's celebrities or people of power, they're just able. And it's so much easier for them to get away with so much more. And I think that if we held them to the same standard, that we would hold a regular person to, like a regular dad or regular friend of the family, whether, you know, on both genders, then things would definitely be a lot different.

[Jason]

Yeah, indeed. And I will note that it wasn't just girls because there were lots of young boys who were also abused. Whether it was in some of these churches and church parishes, whether it was also in the industry, we know the stories of young male models who were also exploited. This whole era felt like we have to rethink everything that we believed about the 1990s. I want to ask about Your musical career. This all started as you wanted to be both a basketball star and a music star. And that's where this all began. Your dreams of. Of singing and performing, whatever happened with that? Were you ever able to get back to singing and get. Or get back to rapping actually? You're a hip hop artist. Did you ever get back to that?

[Rashauna Landfair]

No, I kind of grew out of it organically. I'm still a lover of music. I still love to dibble and dabble. I did get to read the audio version for the Blue, so I was very happy to be back in the studio. So I don't know, I might try to like, tap in and just play around a little bit, just, you know.

[Jason]

Well, you're still young. Good sis. You have so many possibilities. You can do anything. I hope this book has made you feel empowered. Has it made you and I know your publisher and she's a bad sister. She's a wonderful person and I love her. Yeah, we love Trishawn. So thank you for bringing this book forward. What do you want to do with the rest of your life?

[Rashauna Landfair]

With the rest of my life. Again, I'm a mother. I really enjoy being a mom. Raising a young, you know, black boy to be the best possible he could be. I want to continue doing my passion work and I just want to heal souls through my pain. Like I understand now why I went through what I went through. I finally did the work and I'm just here to be a blessing to those people who have gone through similar things like I have.

[Jason]

Rashauna Landfair. The book is called who's Watching Shorty? It is a harrowing read, but I love that you wrote it so honestly and openly. I recommend everyone do read this book just to understand and to re. Understand and re, you know, introduce yourself to this era because we remember it so fondly in so many ways. But for so many people like Rashauna, it was a very, very difficult and painful era. And we're for finding out in real time how rough and bad it was for lots and lots of people. If you had one message that you could send R. Kelly right now, what would it be?

[Rashauna Landfair]

I hope you can take accountability now and I hope you understand how many people you truly hurt.

[Jason]

Rashauna Landfair. Thank you, sister. You're welcome here anytime. We are, we support you. We appreciate you. I can tell you're getting a lot of love in these chats right now. So just know that you are surrounded with love. You know, it's always said that the most disrespected person in the world is the black woman. And I know we came out of knowing about this R. Kelly story saying, wow, nobody cares about black girls. But no, people do care about black girls. We do care about black girls. And we got you covered.

[Rashauna Landfair]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me tonight.

[Jason]

Good, sis. Thank you. Thank you very much. Rashauna Landfair, if you all want to support her and support her book, who's Watching Shorty? Is available in the shop. It is in our little store, which is shop Joanne re.com or shop.joy re.com it is, of course, obviously subject to our 25% off for anything in the store. Support the sister. Because you know, when you write a book, you're putting yourself out there. It is like giving birth. It's like having a child. And, you know, you put it out and you just don't know what's going to happen. This is her pub week. This is her publishing week. So if you want this book to be a bestseller, if you want you care about seeing her succeed, it's very painful to have these interviews. It's difficult to talk to somebody about abuse. It's very brave to sit in front of even just a camera and talk about the things that she did. So we just want to congratulate her for doing that boost and support her. It is not her fault what happened. People have tried to portray her as somehow, you know, being the one at fault. She was a little kid. You can see the video. You can see the pictures of her and know she was a baby, she was a child. So support her. Let's make sure that she gets a bestseller. Chris Witherspoon, my dear friend, is joining us now, somebody who also has interviewed Robert Kelly. You didn't have to. Robert. Robert. Robert him. But Chris Witherspoon is also the proprietor of popviewers.com he is, in my mind, a media icon, formerly of the Griot. You see him frequently on the Today show. He's an entrepreneur and a good friend. Chris, thank you for being here.

[Joy Reid]

Hi, Joy. Hi. I'm so honored to be on your show. My debut on the Joy Reid show, your debut.

[Jason]

I don't know how it is taking so long, but you're so busy and you're out here. But you still keep cute on the side even though we're not your show. But I need to make you a regular my friend. I want to just get your initial reaction to Rashauna and her story.

[Joy Reid]

Well, first off, what a brilliant interview. Joy that you did, and you gave her space to be vulnerable and tell her truth and how brave she was. What really stood out for me is that me and her are the same age. I didn't realize that until I started watching and I was like, wait, that time period, we're the same age. So when she's 13, I remember where I was in the world growing up in Ohio with the cornfield behind my house. And R. Kelly at that time period, in eighth grade, seventh grade, he was huge. If you turned on MTV, turned on BET, he was everywhere. One year after she was 13, in 96, he put out the song that kind of defied his career. Live in the Grammys, you know, singing in front of all the big stars. I believe I can fly. So it's like I understand how at that age, not only being someone who was an aspiring artist, but also just being impressionable as we were. When R. Kelly calls or your aunt connects you to him, it would have made you do anything to be close to him. And you got to keep in mind what I thought about also, Joyce, back in that time period, we didn't have Instagram, we didn't have, we didn't have Twitter. Our stars were very elusive. We only saw them once in a while at these awards shows, maybe, you know, but beyond that, you had their music videos, you had their albums where you could like read their lyrics front to back and you would obsess over them. So I understand how enamored she was because at that time period, music was just so much more huge than what it is now. And R. Kelly is one of those, one of those black artists that actually broke through to not just the bets of the world, but also he dominated MTV at that exact time. At the exact time while he's pursuing this 13 year old child. He is huge. He is at the peak of his career, which is scary and problematic in itself. But I understand how she could have been so starstruck. And as to what to do, she.

[Jason]

Writes in the book about just how big R. Kelly was at the time. And she talks about, she writes about the fact that this is somebody who could start and end careers. I just think people are forgetting just how big R. Kelly was. You're right. He was writing. He wrote, you are not alone for Michael Jackson. He's writing songs, producing songs. This is an R. Kelly in public announcement, which actually her uncle winds up being a part of. R. Kelly in public announcement is like first, you know, 1.0 R. Kelly, by the time, like you said, we get to this era. He's like one of the biggest stars in the world. And the idea that this big star who's in his late twenties is hanging out with you and wants to be your friend. He's 16 years older than her. She's 12. When they first become quote unquote friends. What kind of a man is friends with a 12 year old?

[Joy Reid]

No, that was my thought when she was talking about it. And I think that, that her story is really about not just this one monster, but about really systemic failure at a larger, you know, sort of like, you know, way. And I think about the industry back then, it was really hard to break through. You know, again, you didn't have YouTube. People weren't self publishing and blowing up as artists. So there was this small, small pipeline for artists and an even smaller pipeline for black artists. Yes, you get to be connected with someone like an R. Kelly or, you know, you can go on and name other big names like Michael Jackson, et cetera. If they give you time, you're going to take that time and really look at how serious it is and how this person with one phone call couldn't just destroy your career, but they could also make your career. You got to think about that. R. Kelly was collaborating with the biggest artist. You're talking about people that he wrote for and he kept writing for. In your mind, you're like, this man can make my career, not just break it, but he's someone that can make that phone call and folks will actually answer and I can get a record deal, you know?

[Jason]

Yeah. You know, it's interesting that this is all happening at the same time as the Epstein. Things are breaking from the Epstein files because if you put them all together, I'm a big fan of taking separate events in history, as you know, and matching them up on the timeline because it blows your mind even more when you start to match. Right. You're talking about the 90s. We when Bill Cosby is at the peak of his fame and power. Harvey Weinstein is at the peak of his fame and his power. You're talking about people like Kevin Spacey are huge. It's the Clinton era. So Bill Clinton is huge. He's a cultural icon as well as the president of the United States because he has this sort of celebrity affect. You're talking about on the modeling side, John Casablancas. I was in New York. Everybody wanted to try to get in a poor appointment. And you're taking polaroids to see if John Casablancas will give you a, you know, a meeting. Because every girl, white Black and indifferent inside New York thought we could. Everybody could be a model. We're all taking pictures. You're talking about Jean Luc Brunel. You know, when I was working in 97 in Florida, his modeling agencies, Jean Luc Brunel's modeling agency was the big supplier of model talent to a lot of the big retailers that were doing ads. People were going to Karen Models to get these. You know, I think he discovered Linda Evangelista. Right. So you're thinking about modeling, music, movies, predators. And Jeffrey Epstein is also offending at the same time that R. Kelly is offending. They're all doing it at the same time, Chris. These things are all happening simultaneously. And in the case of Epstein and R. Kelly, it's happening to little girls.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that what I realized firsthand is that the celebrity for a lot of these guys, it just didn't shield them. It also sort of silenced everyone around them. For example, you know, many years later, after she had met R. Kelly, in 2015, I interviewed R. Kelly, and he came to the Griot. They came to me. They came to the Griot. And at that time, Joy, you know, at the Griot, I had carved out a lane at this point where I was kind of like one of the most important stops on a press tour for any black artist, for a movie star, for a TV star, for a musician. This was the height of the dot com era. And we had found this traction between Facebook and different partners that we had where our stories would kind of be the dominant story around the press tour. Right. So R. Kelly comes to the Griot, the publicist that he had had his own PR firm. He'll rename Nameless, a very iconic publicist. But 10 minutes prior, he calls my phone and. And he says to me, chris, we're on our way, about to pull up. Just wanted to go over your questions with you and my girl Oprah, the icon, the queen, the legend had told me two years later, you never let someone read your questions. Always. You control the interview. If someone sits down with you, they have to say, you know, next question. But you have to get questions asked.

[Jason]

While you're doing that. Jason, there are a couple pictures. If you. If you see them inside of the little bucket, there's a couple pictures that relate to the. This interview. I'm just gonna let you know they're there, but. Go on, Chris, keep talking.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, but I said to this publicist, I'm not gonna go over my questions, but what's up? Like, what's the problem? And he Said to me in 2015, we want to stick to the music. We don't want any questions about the allegations of sexual abuse or molestation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I'll tell you, it was like one of the most bizarre interviews I've ever done, because I had done my homework. You know me, Joy, I always did my homework, and I always thought ways to honor your work and honor what you're there to promote, but also ask those one or two tough questions that everyone wants to know. You gotta remember, I'm telling. In 2015, one year after the Bill Cosby MeToo stuff had happened. So that was dominating the news still. So here's this person that, like, you showed that clip of Toray. There are all these receipts out there about these allegations. You know, I had to find a way to ask the question. And it was the most awkward interview. Even when I tried to ask a little bit of personal stuff, he would get back to this album that nobody was caring about. It was called the Buffet. No one even listened to it afterwards. But I think a lot about how the people around R. Kelly, I believe, knew the truth. And I believe there's a lot of people, a lot of publicists, a lot of managers, a lot of agents who shielded him, who called people like me or even talked to us in person and would try to tell us. You can't even go close to these allegations because with this smoke, there's fire. They knew. Normally that's not the case. Normally when people come and sit down and you walk in the 30 Rock, the griot at that time was owned by NBC, you know, Katie Couric or Matt Lauer or Joy Reid, you know, what questions you can't ask. You know, this was back in, by the way.

[Jason]

Well, they certainly try, you know, and there you go. There is the interview and he. The photo after. I guess this is the photo after the interview. The thing about R. Kelly in that instance is this is eight years, six years after the tape. At least six years after the tape, or at least the trial surrounding the tape in which people saw R. Kelly and people saw what one could tell if you saw the video was a child and him having. And urinating on her.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And everyone knew that this is the reason that Dave Chappelle made the joke. And he. And again, he wasn't making fun of the little girl because no one knew who she was. She was an anonymous person. He was making fun of R. Kelly. And the idea that everybody knew that this was something R. Kelly wanted to do. No one knew the age of the girl. No one knew her name. But they knew this is something R. Kelly did because it was on tape. Why do you think R. Kelly didn't pay more of a price for a decade for being that guy?

[Joy Reid]

I mean, I think. I think if you look at pop culture back then, in our society, around pop culture and our stars, they were gods. Our stars and our athletes were gods. And I would hear these stories. You probably would hear them too, Joy. Once you got to New York, you would hear stories, especially on the radio with the queen, Wendy Williams.

[Jason]

Come on.

[Joy Reid]

Who would talk a lot about these parties and the shenanigans that were happening behind closed doors, that weren't right, that were inappropriate and people would have to talk in code. But you began to learn that, wait, there's this really dark side to Hollywood with these mega celebrities that are shielded and protected and they're like gods. And it was the culture back then. I worked at a very high level in the industry as an assistant to a very powerful. Was CEO at one point. And I. I met a lot of those people, you know, and I saw how they moved, how the people around them moved and how they could get whatever they wanted and no one batted an eyelash.

[Jason]

Yeah. And doesn't it. It seems to me I have kind of a working theory about when you get to a certain level of wealth, you also get to a certain level of boredom. And a lot of these super wealthy, super famous, or even if they weren't famous, but just very, very wealthy men, it's like it wasn't enough for them to just date supermodels. It wasn't enough for them to just be able to fly off to Bimini or, you know, have fabulous vacations. Their sort of interest in entertainment became more prurient, more praised, more outre. Right. And they started getting involved in things that were blatantly illegal but that they knew they could get away with 100%.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, you look at a lot of these powerful players at that time period in particular, they were treated like. Like kings, you know, and if you think about kings a thousand years ago, what do they have? They had an harem, they had, you know, concubines. They had a jester, they had, you know, the king's court was not just for the fun. And the day side, there were nighttime activities too. So I think a lot of these. These men that got so wealthy first time generationally, you know, becoming rich, to your point, there was nothing off the table. And I think the more wealth, the more power, the more curious, and the more their sort of desires. Their. Their desires that kind of laid dormant suddenly became a real thing.

[Jason]

Yeah. And they were. They had. They had in front of them a sort of a smorgasbord of victims. I mean, you think about on the male side, Abercrombie and Fitch was a dumpster fire of sexual abuse. You know, we're all just seeing Abercrombie and Fitch. Everyone, every male wanted to get a job in Abercrombie and Fitch. If you were good looking enough, they'd hire you. But now you're like, oh, that's why they were hiring so many good looking young men. Because the guy who ran Abercrombie and Fitch was a predator. Right. It's like they're just gathering around themselves. These guys running model agencies. Oh, John Casablanca's. You're a modeling agent. Because, look, you've got victims everywhere you turn, and they're teenagers and up.

[Joy Reid]

Yep. And if you watch that video documentary, the ones on right now, and you look at the different people who are a part of the story that worked for bad boy, you begin to realize that, like, success at that time, success, success and power and sort of like this, this perversion all went hand in hand. It was literally a part of the culture. And that's what's scary. That's what's scary to think about then. I hope that it stopped now because there's cameras everywhere, there's social media. Yeah. But it blows my mind how dark it really was, you know?

[Jason]

Well, while I have you here, you know, I have to get all the tea from you that I can get out of you. Chris Witherspoon. We gotta talk about Savannah Guthrie.

[Joy Reid]

Oh, my God.

[Jason]

Savannah Guthrie's mom being kidnapped. I thought it was when, you know, our friend Jackie Reed, my sora cousin, sister, friend, told me about it. I thought it was a joke. I did not believe it. What is going on?

[Joy Reid]

You know, I was on the Today show Monday. I was there doing work, you know, entertainment work. And I was. I was shocked. I was shocked by sort of the. Just the story of what happened. Apparently her mom lives in Arizona and Saturday night was abducted. We didn't really know the whole story. Even Monday really would happen. The story Monday was that she was missing, you know, and I immediately thought, you know, maybe it could be that she's 84 and maybe early onset dementia or something of that sort. But this story keeps unfolding. Joy Reid, every time you open the Internet, there's another story about this. And now it looks as though she might have been kidnapped. You know, it's one of the most heartbreaking stories I've seen, you know, in a very, very, very long time. Even the President Trump is weighing in on it and saying he's going to provide like government, FBI to help try to solve this. But it's kind of mind boggling that it seems still playing out like this.

[Jason]

Yeah, he's going to provide government help in the FBI. First of all, that's the FBI's job. Maybe somebody should read Donald Trump and that's the FBI is for and I'm shocked they're going to do it. I hope they don't find out that Savannah might have voted for Kamala because he might. He might pull the FBI off the case. Let's talk about Bad Bunny Bowl. This I am looking forward to the bad Bunny bowl more than I am the game. I'm just being honest. None of my teams are in. But I cannot wait. Please talk about the tea surrounding how angry the right is about Bad Bunny bowl and how amazing the show is going to be because I'm excited.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, listen, think about even last year how angry the right was about Kendrick Lamar. You know, Kendrick Lamar tore it up and I feel like this bad Bunny bowl. And even if you watch the Grammy Awards on Sunday, what I saw was a soldier who's ready for war. You know, what I saw the Grammy Awards was a man who is he. He is going to come out defiant and strong. I believe even the fact that he dedicated his speeches to saying ice out and talking about how immigrants aren't, aren't. We're not animals. We're human beings. It's all about love. I believe his message at that halftime show is or his halftime show is going to be packed. Packed, do you hear me? With messages similar to what he said on the stage at the Grammy Awards and, and, and as it should be. You know, he has defied every odd you can think of. He is like one of the the actually the most streamed artists like the past three years and is breaking records left and right. Why would he not be the halftime show? You know, like where the math at?

[Jason]

I'm getting everything I can out of Chris Witherspoon. Do you have a pick or a favorite in terms of Oscars? Because now it looks like we've got a foot race between two films, one of which is about vampires.

[Joy Reid]

I mean my pick right now is Sinners. I do love the movie Marty Supreme a lot, but I think that Sinners is groundbreaking in so Many levels. But I think the bigger story here is it has made history with the most Oscar nominations ever for any film. So we gotta remember that for any film. Yeah, it's really important at a time when we're hearing so many black artists like Issa Rae and Spike Lee and I can go on and on that have been talking about the lack of scripts that are being picked up and budgets that are being given to. To black cast TV shows or films. I think what center means to Hollywood is huge. But I think with those nominations and any wins means for the future of black Hollywood's even more important. You would think that there should be more opportunity because there's more streamers right now, there's more channels to program and to have access for scripted content. But it's not the case. We're seeing things exact opposite. You can ask any black creator in Hollywood right now, they will tell you the scripts aren't getting greenlit. So I think that Sinners, being a film that defied the odds for a film, period, let alone being from a black director and a black actor, is going to be huge.

[Jason]

And one battle after another is great, but I don't think it's going to beat Sinners either. I think Sinners is about to go on a romp. Last note on the other end of the spectrum, quality Sinners, one battle after another on the other end. Melania film, worst reviewed film in history.

[Joy Reid]

I haven't even watched it, you know, normally. Normally, like I got screeners for it and I normally will watch things that I think might be a train wreck just to watch. I can't even bring myself to watch it. Like something, something about it looks like one big commercial to me.

[Jason]

I've heard it's like one 80s music video. It's like a 80s music video done by a sex pest. Because of course, of course Brett Ratner is a disaster in terms of his. His reputation. Okay, here's what we're gonna do, Chris. When I'm back in New York, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna get. We're gonna take our zbiotics, okay. We're gonna take our Z biotics first. Okay? Because we're not trying to be sick. We're gonna take our. We're not gonna try to, you know, we wanna be. Take our biotics.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And then we are gonna watch this film. We're gonna have a screening, we're invite a couple people over and we're going to watch this. We are gonna put ourselves through it together.

[Joy Reid]

How about That I did a dry January. I'm officially wet February. So let's go.

[Jason]

Let's do it.

[Joy Reid]

Let's throw them back. I'm ready to drink.

[Jason]

Okay, It's February.

[Joy Reid]

We have to make one. One distinction. What movie are we talking about?

[Jason]

Sinners or the Milania? No. The Melania film? No. We got no. And we're gonna have security.

[Joy Reid]

But, Jason, we're gonna have shots. We're gonna have shots. We're gonna make it fun, and then we're gonna have. But I'm gonna have to sit there and watch this thing and act like I really care. I know.

[Jason]

You don't have to act like you care. You can act indifferent.

[Joy Reid]

No.

[Jason]

You can have whatever face on you.

[Joy Reid]

Want to get the screen. Let's have a good time, y'. All.

[Jason]

Okay. The chat is objecting. The chat is. I'm being overthrown in the chat. Chris Witherspoon. Everyone needs to follow Download Pop Viewers, by the way. Pop Viewers is the only way I know what's. What's on tv other than Jackie Reed harassing me and telling me what to watch. Pop Viewers is amazing. Not only can you talk about what you love, not only can you find things to watch, but you also talk about what you love and give back and give feedback and be your own Siskel and Ebert. You're also going to want to follow every single thing that Chris is doing. One of my favorites is Vibes and Views. Talk about what Vibes and Views is, Chris. We got to talk about this.

[Joy Reid]

I mean, listen, I get invited to a lot of great screening events for movies, for TV shows. I wanted to create an event series that really is for the culture. It's something that we are activating around content and really building a community around content in real life. So we started doing this last year. We've had Jesse Williams. I can go on and on with big stars, Lala Anthony. We have some huge ones lined up for 2026, and we're going to be doing. We're going to be culminating Vibes and Views this year, you guys, with the first ever Viewer Con. I'm announcing here first. It will be at some point in Q4 this year, likely in Newark with a partnership with Audible. But I looked at ViewerCon to be an extension of Comic Con and CultureCon and all the great conventions, but really about film and TV and a chance for viewers to be front and center and for us to understand what you like and what you don't like. That's the big thing about Pop viewers. We are about viewer audience sentiment. So viewer con will be for that.

[Jason]

Love it, love it, love it. Download Pop viewers, everybody. You will love it. And of course, you love Chris Witherspoon. We're going to grab more of his time in the year of our Lord 2026. Thank you so much, Chris. And I will see you soon. Yes, Joy, thank you very much. All right. Love it. Love Chris Witherspoon. He is awesome. No, you really should download Pop Viewers. It really will help you find something to watch that. It's too much information. Coming in now. We're going to get to our moment of joy, which is a hilarious one because, you know, this week was Groundhog Week. It was Groundhog Day, and our moment of joy is from a great Instagram.

[Joy Reid]

I'm sorry, Joy, I missed it.

[Jason]

What did the hogs do? Are we going to have a quick summer or what? Oh, Tyreek's going to tell you. Tyreek told you has the answer to your question. And it's also our moment of joy. Okay, let her rip.

[Joy Reid]

You're sick of this winter weather and you want spring to hurry up. I have some really bad news for you. That rodent saw its shadow. Yeah. Today is Groundhog Day, and unfortunately, Pucks, a tawny Phil looked at his ugly ass shadow. This may sound a little extreme, but I'm calling for the extermination of all the groundhogs. Get rid of this vermin. I'm sick of it. We need to find some new magical animals. Maybe a beaver. I trust the beavers more than the groundhogs. Unlike you, Philip, I can't just burrow underground at the slightest inconvenience. You need to read the room. I think this is a stupid tradition. I think we need to get rid of it. We need to replace it with something better. Something more efficient, something that's more people friendly. Because clearly the groundhogs like the winter. They want us to have an extra six weeks. Find us some summertime animals. Find us a flamingo. They like sunny weather.

[Jason]

First of all, he called him Philip. Phillip. Phillip. Oh, my God. Tyreek told you. You guys need to follow that. Brother. That is hilarious. Big up to Wins on the team for finding that. What he called him a wrote it is that they all got to go. Flamingos up. Groundhog down. Okay, thank you. J leave a comment. You popped out like you had you had something to say. You gonna defend Philli?

[Joy Reid]

I'm gonna leave it alone to say.

[Lev Parnas]

We have six weeks ago.

[Joy Reid]

No, we got a long time ago. Cle up a lot of Snow this week.

[Jason]

It was bad. It's froze. Froze. Thank you all for watching the George beach show. Don't forget to get your questions in into ask Maddy [e-mail]. maddie J is gonna get y' all right for Valentine's Day. Don't go into Valentine's day as a hea. Don't do no hea on Valentine's Day because you didn't get your question in. So Maddie J can help help you out. All right? You do know and if you got a heifer in your life, maybe you want to ask a question about them. Feel free to ask about friend, he, neighbor, heers, cousin. He's not related to a heer. Or maybe you are a heer. You just want to admit it and you know, come out the closet and expect explain to you what happened too.

[Ellie Leonard]

Whatever it is.

[Jason]

Whatever it is, whatever heifer. Nations are bothering you ahead of Valentine's day. Ask Maddie. Jeremy.com we're so excited that's gonna be on the 11th. You got more big surprises coming to you this year. We are also scheduling a team tjrs private chat. We are told by our chatters that the substackers want their own channels. So YouTubers, you might get your own too. So they get their own. You get your own. And we also want to say the Facebookers and probably like, what about us? And the twitch people. Like, what about us? We love everybody. Whether you're on Twitch, Facebook, IG. We don't stream really on IG, but we love y' all on IG anyway. And also substack and also YouTube. We love all Y team. Thank you very much everybody who's joined as a member. Throw a little coin in the tail.

[Joy Reid]

We appreciate it.

[Jason]

Don't forget to vote for us for the Image Awards. The end of LA Image awards. Those are at the end of the month. That's it. I got no more notes. Thank you all for watching.

[Joy Reid]

I'm about to touch you and do a. Could you guys please take a phone out and take a picture?

[Jason]

All right. Well, we love everybody. Thank you all so much for tuning in. We will see you all on the.

[Joy Reid]

Back to my basics. Getting back to the basics. Grassroot level. Let me dig a little deeper with the shovel Plenty can't tell the force from the trees that I'm hard to detect Like a black hole in the dark Injustice anywhere It's a threat to.

[Lev Parnas]

Justice everywhere Let me make this clear.

[Joy Reid]

I got a bone to pick and I'll never fear the threat of poverty they don't want to talk about it. They rap the party, so I'm a real talk about it for sure.