The Empire Strikes Back | The Joy Reid Show LIVE!

Summary

THE JOY REID SHOW
Episode: The Empire Strikes Back | LIVE!
Date: July 30, 2026
Host: Joy-Ann Reid
Main Guests: Daniel Levy, Latasha Brown, Jamie Harrison, Chelsea Fuller, Takara Pierce

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a sweeping look at the intersection of US politics, the ongoing conflict and policy towards Israel/Palestine, the Democratic Party's internal dynamics, structural racism and the South, and threats to US democracy from right-wing movements. Joy-Ann Reid weaves together current headlines with broader historical and structural analysis, focusing on the theme of “The Empire Strikes Back:” the entrenched power fighting rising progressive, anti-establishment, and pro-repair movements in the US and abroad.

Two major storylines underpin the discussions:

1. The establishment’s aggressive defense of pro-Israel policies even as public opinion shifts, tying it to surveillance, AI, and empire-building (Pax Silica).
2. The evolving power of the Black electorate in US politics, particularly with South Carolina’s new first-in-the-nation status, and the ongoing movement to root out white Christian nationalism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Housekeeping & Nolan Wells Case

[00:05-07:41]

• Joy-Ann Reid thanks the diverse online audience, celebrates subscriber benchmarks, and promotes the Substack newsletter.
• Joy previews coverage of attorney Ben Crump’s updates on the Nolan Wells case and connects this case to historic distrust for Mississippi's authorities regarding Black disappearances:

  “Mississippi has a reputation for a reason…there have been disappearances and nefarious goings on regarding black people from time immemorial.” [01:54]

• Joy issues a caution to content creators: while crowdsourcing is important due to institutional distrust, making unproven allegations can open people up to lawsuits.
• She highlights the right-wing ecosystem’s tendency to sue and weaponize legal action for political ends.
• Notes about white peers of victims “lawyering up” and only speaking to right-wing outlets, advising caution to fellow Black creators.

Memorable Quote:

“We don’t have an FBI, we don’t have a Department of Justice, we don’t have a civil rights division… Good to crowdsource. Bad to make very specific allegations about people if you can’t prove it…” [03:34, Joy Reid]

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2. Establishment Backlash & Israel: Patterson vs. Mamdani

[08:00-14:43]

• Joy critiques former NY Governor David Patterson for comparing New York City’s progressive mayor Zorhan Mamdani to infamous segregationist George Wallace, all because Mamdani denounced Benjamin Netanyahu as a war criminal.
• Plays Mamdani’s statement, focusing on the humanitarian toll in Gaza and the ICC’s arrest warrant for Netanyahu.
• Joy frames the attack on Mamdani as part of an “Empire Strikes Back” moment, where the bipartisan establishment reacts “absurdly” to the erosion of unquestioned US/Israeli alliance.

Quotable:

“To say that by pointing out the evils of Benjamin Netanyahu… that caring enough about Palestinian lives to point out that he has been adjudicated a war criminal makes you George Wallace is an affront to every black person who ever lived under Jim Crow.” [14:43, Joy Reid]

Critical Segment:

• Joy underscores that global consensus (over 140 countries) also supports Netanyahu’s arrest, but US establishment remains dogged in support.

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3. Pax Silica, AI, and the Military-Industrial Complex

[18:00-24:28]

• Joy traces bipartisan US support for Israel to technological and imperial strategy:
  • “Pax Silica” = US-led project to build/safeguard AI infrastructure in the Western hemisphere, with Israel as a key partner and China as the strategic rival.
  • Ties this to Peter Thiel, the CIA, and the “empire” story.
• Airs commentary from a Filipino official highlighting the exploitative nature of foreign tech initiatives like Pax Silica in the Global South.

Jerusalem Post analysis read by Joy:

“Membership in the supply chain guarantees strategic belonging. Exclusion has the opposite effect.” [23:34]

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4. Interview: Daniel Levy (U.S. Middle East Project President)

[24:28–45:22]

On U.S.-Israel Ties

[24:28–29:41]

• Daniel Levy argues that as public support for Israel wanes, the establishment is embedding Israel more deeply in military and tech infrastructure—making “pro-Israel” politics about operational ties, not moral alignment.
• The political attacks on progressives (like Mamdani) are a sign of desperation and waning legitimacy.

On Instrumentalization and Jewish Identity

[29:41–37:05]

• Levy unpacks how the Israeli state instrumentalizes global Jewish identity to shield itself from criticism, a move he calls “grotesque.”
• Points to the generational shift: younger/more progressive Jews increasingly reject Israeli state actions in their name—e.g., Molly Crabapple’s bestseller on the anti-Zionist Jewish Bund.

Notable Quote:

“The proximate cause… of so much antisemitism today is the insistence that Israel speaks for us, that we’re there to defend Israel, that there’s no distinction…” [30:42, Daniel Levy]

On Netanyahu & Prospects for Change

[37:05–45:22]

• Joy and Levy discuss Netanyahu’s arrogance, the futile hope among some liberals that ousting Bibi will “solve” Israel’s problems, and the growing power of the Israel lobby post-Citizens United.
• America’s loss of international friends—its reputation further damaged by subservience to Israel and failed attempt at technological hegemony.

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5. “Voices of Repair”: Black Faith and Countering White Christian Nationalism

[45:44–59:44]

• Chelsea Fuller & Takara Pierce explain “Voices of Repair,” mobilizing Black faith leaders to counter white Christian nationalist narratives, especially as Christian nationalism finds support among some Black Christians.
• The campaign encourages self-examination within Black congregations around how Christian nationalism—originally rooted in white supremacy—shows up within all communities.

Quote:

“Christian nationalism exists on a spectrum, with white Christian nationalism being at the far extreme end. And people exist all along that spectrum…” [50:44, Chelsea Fuller]

• Fuller and Pierce describe strategies: narrative change, providing toolkits for clergy, and fostering theological reflection on justice, inclusion, repair.
• Discuss how wedge issues (trans rights, immigration, policing) are exploited to recruit minorities into white Christian nationalist politics.
• Explicit call for Black agency: campaign is about activating the “divine imagination” of what it means to build beloved community.

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6. Segment: The Empire’s Fear of Progressivism and DSA

[65:00–75:24]

• Joy criticizes Rolling Stone for adopting the establishment’s hand-wringing over the rise of DSA and left candidates in heartland states.
• Detailed rundown of Democratic primary battles where AIPAC is pouring money to block progressive and Palestinian-rights candidates (e.g., Cori Bush in Missouri, El Sayed vs. Stevens in Michigan).
• Plays debates highlighting non-answers on AIPAC money (Haley Stevens) and the flood of dark/special interest money in politics.

Quote:

“These lobbies are very single issue… They care about the one thing, you know: Dr. Syed talked about utility companies funding his opponent. They want deregulation.” [74:59, Joy Reid]

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7. The Battle for the South and Changing Democratic Power

[75:24–117:00]

• South as new battleground: Democrats used to win routinely; now resurgence seen as essential.
• State-by-state analysis: Democrats’ prospects in Texas, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Florida.

South Carolina Goes First

[83:34–93:46]

• Joy, Jamie Harrison (former DNC Chair/At Our Table podcast), and Latasha Brown (Black Voters Matter) discuss South Carolina’s elevation to first-in-the-nation status for the 2028 Democratic primary.
• Pushback to critics who claim this lessens Black/Southern voter power—Harrison:

  “Beginning here in South Carolina now means that black voters help shape the conversation from the very beginning… There’s a big difference between helping write the agenda and simply reacting to it.” [86:49, Jamie Harrison]

• Brown: South Carolina is a microcosm for pragmatic, working-class, and progressive politics; strengthening Black voter influence helps everyone.

Progressive Voices & Power Building

[97:58–115:38]

• Joy and guests dispel myths that South Carolina/Democrats in the South are “centrist only” or anti-progressive. The Black electorate is most progressive slice of the party, especially on bread-and-butter issues.
• Brown: Democratic politics in the South is about “power, not about a popularity contest”—and Black Southern voters have often pragmatically chosen the viable option for maximum impact.
• Call for Democrats to invest seriously in the South, not to “cede territory” nor rely on failed Northeast consultants.

Memorable Moments:

• Brown’s fiery challenge:

  “Cynicism is not a strategy right now. This is about pure damn power, point blank period.” [101:22, Latasha Brown]

• Historical reminders: both Reagan and Trump launched presidential campaigns in the South, knowing “the seat of power is in the South.” [113:27, Latasha Brown]

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8. Republican Theatrics & Blame Game: Fauci on Trial

[117:20–131:30]

• Joy covers the Congressional spectacle of Anthony Fauci being blamed for the pandemic, while Trump’s systemic failures go unaddressed.
• Plays segment where Senator Bernie Moreno unloads on Fauci, contrasting this passion with his relative silence regarding abuse against his own daughter.

Quote:

“You sons of bitches in the Republican Party are so bereft of anything to run for reelection on, you’re so bereft of a plan to fix the economy that you broke... so their new gambit is to drag Anthony Fauci back out of the closet…” [124:25, Joy Reid]

• Joy skewers GOP as the “party of numbnuts,” arguing the only hope is in a revitalized, fighting Democratic Party.

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9. Joy’s Critique of Democratic Weakness

[131:30–134:10]

• Urges Democrats to stand firm for progressive policies—healthcare, affordable groceries, housing—rather than cowering before the right or the AIPAC lobby.
• Lampoons resistance to “DSA, you bastards, how dare you offer Jesse Jackson’s entire 1984, 1988 platform.”
• Calls for a coalition approach rather than cynical purity tests.

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10. Moment of Joy

[137:12–140:00]

• Positive concluding segment:
  • A surprise reunion between a Birmingham, AL high school graduate and his Air Force father, home from Japan for the ceremony—a rare, hopeful note in an otherwise charged episode.
  • Emotional video played, celebrating Black familial and community joy.

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Notable Quotes

• “The Empire is so freaked out by the advancement of progressivism, they're losing their minds… but it's not game over. It’s game on.” [39:40, Daniel Levy]
• “There's nobody more progressive than black folks, right? Particularly on social issues.” [97:58, Latasha Brown]
• “Cynicism is not a strategy right now. This is about pure damn power.” [101:22, Latasha Brown]
• “You don't just cede territory and allow your opponent to get stronger and stronger and stronger and then they run stuff.” [113:53, Latasha Brown]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | Key Guests/Topics | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------|-------------------------------| | 00:05–07:41 | Housekeeping, Nolan Wells Case, Crowdsourcing | Joy opens, warns creators | | 08:00–14:43 | Patterson vs. Mamdani, War Criminals | NY Post, ICC, civil rights | | 18:00–24:28 | Pax Silica, Tech Empire, Global South | Empire, Peter Thiel, Philippines| | 24:28–45:22 | Daniel Levy Interview: Israel, US power, Identity | Daniel Levy | | 45:44–59:44 | Voices of Repair—Countering Christian Nationalism | Chelsea Fuller, Takara Pierce | | 65:00–75:24 | DSA, AIPAC Money, Midwest Primaries | Joy commentary, debate audio | | 75:24–117:00| The South: Power, SC Primary, Black Voters | Jamie Harrison, Latasha Brown | | 117:20–131:30 | Fauci Blamed, Pandemic Politics | Joy, Senate audio | | 137:12–140:00 | Moment of Joy: Graduation Reunion | Uplifting video |

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Original Tone and Language

Joy-Ann Reid’s tone is combative, urgent, sharply critical of both Republican maneuvering and Democratic complacency, fiercely proud of Black political power, and deeply skeptical of establishment narratives. The guests match her spirited engagement, bringing facts, lived experience, and organizing energy. Humor, sarcasm, and cultural references abound.

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Conclusion

This episode stands as a tour-de-force diagnosis and rallying cry—exposing the establishment’s frantic defense of empire, Israel, and oligarchy, while elevating Black-led coalition-building, progressive insurgencies, and faith-rooted repair work as the new engine for transformation in American life and politics.

Listeners will come away with:

• A detailed sense of how US policy and politics are driven as much by behind-the-scenes interests (military, tech, AIPAC, right-wing media) as by open democratic debate.
• The essential, progressive, coalition-building power of Black Southern electorate.
• The high stakes lurking behind apparently “local” or “single-issue” fights—from Mississippi disappearances to AI investment.
• A reminder of the hard-fought joy and hope in Black families and organizing, even amid struggle.

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For further details or full quotes from any segment, see the corresponding timestamps above.

Transcript

[Joy Reid]

Okay,

Happy Wednesday, everyone. Welcome to the Joy Reid show. Big up to everybody that is already hanging out in the chats. We love our early birdies who jumped in. We got hearts already going in the YouTube chat. Let me check out the substack chat here. Everybody is all present and accounted for. Big up to everybody that's looking, looking at us, watching us, enjoying us on YouTube, on Facebook, on LinkedIn, our LinkedIn, which I'm just going to keep calling you LinkedIn. He's gonna think it's adorable. And also of course, our fabulous Twitchies on Twitch. Our Twitch fam is so fun. They're always so chill. Like probably the most chill readers fam are the Twitchies. We love each and every one of you guys. So I just want to thank everybody for being part of our growth experience. We are now at 4, 486,000 subscribers. Jason, I think we should get an applause for that.

[Jamie Harrison]

No, I think we're going to be

[Joy Reid]

up to 487 by the end of the show. Oh, there we go.

[Daniel Levy]

You won't hear it if I.

[Joy Reid]

Okay. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, well, I think we are getting there. So we're, we're on our magical climb to 500,000, which is our vault to get to a million subscribers on YouTube. We are at 200 and just under 210,000 on substack. Come on, substack, keep up the pace. Substack. What's happening? Y' all need to get on that substack if you want to get the written missives of myself and others. Kai, mom, one of my former amazing producers from MSNBC, MizzeNow, has a terrific piece on Palestine that we have up on the substack at Joy's house. Do check that out. We've also got some great stuff from our in house psychologist writing about all the brain things that you need to think about in terms of trying to keep your brain braining. So we got a lot of great contact there. So please check all that out. Please hit like and subscribe. Don't forget to do that. We love it when you hit like and subscribe. The algorithm really needs it. It's thirsty for like and subscribe. But also please hit that share button. Let share it with a friend. And also the little notification bell. We will at 11am tomorrow morning be live streaming Ben Crump's latest update on the Nolan Wells case. So do hit the notification bell now so you don't forget because sometimes your, you know, your life starts lifeing and you forget what time it is. It's going to be at 11 o'. Clock. But if you hit the notification bell now and then hit all, you'll get a little notification in your phone or on your laptop that that live is starting. We're going to cover it. And I spoke with Ben earlier today. This is not just about the Nolan Wells case, but but apparently there are multiple cases of young black men who have gone missing in Mississippi. And some of the same authorities who are responsible, statewide authorities, the medical examiner and others who are overseeing the Nolan Wells situation have also overseen some of these other cases. And the reason that this case is drawing so much attention is because people don't trust the state authorities. They definitely don't trust the governor, Tate Reeves, who's an awful person and shows no concern for black lives. Then on top of it, you've got these state officials and even local officials who, you know, Mississippi has a reputation for a reason. And there have been disappearances and nefarious goings on regarding black people from time immemorial. So it's not like the distrust is not unearned. Is unearned. It's earned. It's an earned distrust. So tomorrow morning we're going to talk not just about the Nolan Wells case, but but other families who've also had disappearances that are mysterious. The one other thing I'm going to add, and we'll talk about it later in hour two. We have great guests coming up in hour two, including the great Latasha Brown, Jamie Harrison. They're going to come on to talk about South Carolina going first. The south is rising. It's important. But also, you know, this Nolan Wells case is hitting people in a particular way partly because it's the South. So we want to talk in the bigger picture about the South. The other thing I will note is that some of the white friends have also lawyered. Well, they all have lawyered up, but some of them are now issuing very unsubtle warnings to people who are speculating about them online, using their names and being very specific about alleging they did things to Nolan Wells. I'm going to say this to my fellow content creators. Be careful out there because there's a reason why these friends that all call themselves the best friend didn't go to, you know, Don Lemon or me or CNN or Ms. Now. They went straight to a right wing content creator. I want you all to notice that they went straight to officer unfriendly to black people. They went to a right wing content. They didn't even go to Fox, which is Normally where conservatives go to tell their stories. And now people like Megyn Kelly, who clearly doesn't give a damn about black people, have jumped on the case. Everyone's jumped on the case. Every amateur detective has jumped on the case. But be careful. If you're doing amateur detective work. It is good for us to crowdsource this case since we don't have an FBI and we don't have a department, we don't have a Department of justice, we don't have a civil rights division of the Justice Department. Good to crowdsource. Bad to make very specific allegations about people if you can't prove it, because you open yourself up to getting sued. So you want to be very careful. We've been very. We've tried to be very responsible and very careful about what we're saying. Things don't add up in this case. It is clear that things do not add up in this case. And the stories, the mat that the matches ain't match. And I told y' all the friend that Nolan Wells was supposedly there to stay on the island with us, and that was a high and buy. And I thought he was getting back on the boat. So there's a lot that's weird. Obviously, that sound of the distress call is sending everybody into a tizzy and everybody's AI in it and trying to figure out what they're saying in the background. All good to crowdsource. But just be careful, because if you start accusing these little young right wingers of things and you can't prove it, you. You end up in court because they have lawyered up and they are in the right wing ecosystem. They are deep. We are all out here outside that ecosystem, so we don't necessarily see what goes on in there. But I'm telling you, as somebody who has studied the right wing ecosystem for a long time, that ecosystem exists in this iteration just to sue people. Note that they will sue for anything. Nancy Mace trying to sue to stop there from being a Congressional Black Caucus, because she's like, that's unfair. Where's the Congressional crazy lady Caucus for me?

[Chelsea Fuller]

No.

[Joy Reid]

Congressional Asian Caucus, no. No Hispanic caucus, no nothing. They're there to sue because they want to strip this country of anything that is helpful to or that lifts up people of color, particularly black people. They're especially anti black. So I'm just saying just. Just be careful out there. But please, amateur detective. It's all fine. Y' all are all obsessed with Nancy Grace. You think she solves crimes. She's not the FBI. But y' all think she is. Whatever. But everybody just be careful. Don't be saying specific stuff. If you can't prove it, I'm just gonna. That is my. As my public service announcement to my fellow content creators, let me also note at. This wonderful podcast that we love so much is brought to you by our wonderful friends at Strawberry Me. Now, listen, Strawberry Me is giving you something that is super important, and that is guidance. You know, when people, you know, have made it to a dream career, sometimes you look at them, you're like, wow, how did they get there? You start thinking, what am I doing wrong? How do I make it? And what you don't realize, you know the glory, but you don't know the story. And a lot of time the story is, people got advice. People got good advice. Coaching and mentoring. And coaching and mentoring are two of the most key aspects of success for myself personally, for all sorts of people who are in careers that you look at and say, oh, I want to do that. And so that kind of coaching and mentoring is exactly what Strawberry Me is about. That's what they do. It is therapy for your career. Right? And so even if you're looking at your own life, you're looking in the mirror.

[Latasha Brown]

You're like, I know.

[Joy Reid]

Mirror you. You beautiful person in the mirror. You're capable of doing more. I. I just don't know what the next step is to do that more. And if that is something that you need and that is something that you want, Strawberry Me is here for you. They can actually help you. They match you with a career coach who will then help you to look at your blind spots and look at the obstacles that may be keeping you stuck and help you build an actual plan instead of just waiting around for the perfect opportunity to magically knock on your door. So whether you're trying to land a new job or earn a promotion or just completely reinvent your career, Strawberry Me gives you a roadmap and a dedicated coach who is with you every step of the way. So if you want to try it, because it's really important to have that guidance and that partnership, it's one way to really grow what it is that you know you're capable of, but you want to get there, scan the QR code on your screen and head to Strawberry Me Joy. And they will give you 50% off your first session because, you know, you're a reader. So go to Strawberry Me. Joy. Strawberry Me. It is like therapy for your career, and we all need that. Okay, so now we've gotten the housekeeping out of the way. Oh, I also want to note that on Friday, Friday show, we're going to be live from Chicago. We are going there for the Chicago Women's Expo, which is a long time, really sort of big time civil rights moment for black women in Chicago. That's where we will be on Friday. We're going to be talking with the mayor of Chicago, among others. So that's going to be an interesting moment. We're also going to speak with Cori Bush, the candidate in Missouri's first district. We did try to also get Wesley Bell. We actually invited Wesley Bell, her opponent, who's the incumbent congressman, to be on tonight. He has not gotten back to us. So if anybody knows Wesley Bell and wants to like knock on his door or give him a ping and let him know, we'd like to give him an opportunity to be on the show as well. So far, the Bell's office has not responded to our producers. You'll know who they are because it says the joyreadshow.com at the end of their email. Go ahead and respond, Wesley, we'd love to have a conversation with you. Okay, so now remember when I told you guys that I was going to explain this Pax Silica thing on Wednesday? I'm going to do that. But let me, let me come back around to it. I'm going to come back around to it kind of backwards. Okay, So I want to start in New York where the former Governor David Patterson said something absolutely batshit this week. Absolutely batshit crazy. David Patterson, the former governor of New York. I mean, he's the legally blind musician former governor. He compared New York Mayor Zorhan Mamdani. You know, the Mamdani who's jumping in the pool with the kids and making housing cheaper and opening a community grocery store and high fiving people walking down the street and meeting people from Uganda and like going to the World Cup. That Mamdani, he compared that guy to George Wallace. George Wallace. Let me read this from the New York Post. Patterson, who was also a former chairman of the state Democratic Party, said Mamdani's antagonistic stance against Israel, including his empty threat to arrest Israel. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu could be a dog whistle to anti Semites. First of all, New York Post, you're supposed to be a newspaper. News being in the word newspaper. Mamdani did not issue an empty threat to arrest Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He said he couldn't arrest him but that he should be arrested because he's a war criminal. So that's just not factually correct. But let me go on. This is what they also said. Mamdani is the 2020s answer to George Wallace, said Patterson. George Wallace. I mean this George Wallace. In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny. And I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever. Let us send this message back to Washington by our representatives who are here with us today, that from this day, we are standing up and the heel of tyranny does not fit the neck of an upright man. That we intend to take the offensive and carry our fight for freedom across this nation, wielding the balance of power we know we possess in the Southland. That we, not the insipid black voters of some sections, will determine in the next election who shall sit in the White House of the United States. Now, look, the New York Post, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch, is really lucky that it's not that easy to sue a newspaper for slander or libel. Because you think that a New York mayor, the mayor of the city where the UN Sits, pointing out that the International Criminal Court at the Hague has determined that a foreign leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, is a war criminal, saying that because he's been adjudicated a war criminal, I don't know, maybe he ought to be arrested. That is the same thing as calling for segregation now, segregation forever, and saying effectively that the blacks will never equal the white people of the South. How sway. Governor, you're also welcome to come on the show if you want to explain to me logically how that is not utterly insane. I mean, just absolutely insane. And just for those of you who may be tempted to think that maybe Governor Patterson has a point, let me just play for you the outrageous thing that Zorhan Mamdani, Mayor Mamdani, said that caused Patterson to compare him to George Wallace. Here it is.

[Jamie Harrison]

Netanyahu is a war criminal, the architect of a horrific genocide against the Palestinian people. He is responsible for the killing of more than 73,000 people, for the maiming of tens of thousands of children as those who survive undergo amputation without anesthesia, for the targeting of neonatal hospitals and maternity care centers, denying newborns even the chance to live for the countless people he starved as he blocked food and humanitarian aid from reaching them, for the gunning down of hundreds of aid workers and journalists. And just last month, the UN confirmed that Palestinian children continue to be deliberately targeted and killed by Israeli armed forces, more than eight Months after the so called ceasefire, the list goes on and on. All as we as Americans pay for the bombs that do the killing, there is a reason the International Criminal Court issued a warrant for his arrest. As human beings, we have spent generations building a shared understanding that are crimes so grave they offend all of humanity. Anyone with their eyes, with their heart, with their conscience should recognize the devastation he has wrought and understand that he belongs before a court of law.

[Joy Reid]

That is a plain, factual, humanitarian statement by a man who cares about human rights. And to say that by pointing out the evils of Benjamin Netanyahu, we, who is a genocidal war criminal, who's been adjudicated a war criminal, that caring enough about Palestinian lives to point out that he has been adjudicated a war criminal makes you. George Wallace is an affront to every black person who ever lived under Jim Crow. It is an affront to every black person who ever fought in the civil rights movement. And as Martin Vasquez on my substack chat has pointed out, in a way, it's a low key threat against Bondani because we know what happened to George Wallace. George Wallace was actually shot. And so it could be arguable, former governor, that you are the one making Mamdani unsafe. You are the one issuing a threat that could put his life at risk. You are comparing him, Governor Patterson, to a noxious segregationist that is so over the top as to seem like you want to put him in jeopardy. And that is the opposite of being a part of the black civil rights tradition. You have placed yourself outside of that tradition because you have to ask yourself, where would SNCC land on what Bibi Netanyahu was doing to the Palestinians? I know because SNCC issued its own manifesto about the plight of the Palestinians in 1965. Where would Dr. King land on what Benjamin Netanyahu is doing to the Palestinians? I know because Dr. King canceled his visit in 1967 to Israel because he felt that visiting would essentially mean he was tying himself to the dispossession of Palestinians whom he said should be treated fairly. Where would Fannie Lou Hamer lie? Where would she stand? Would she stand with Benjamin Netanyahu or would she stand with the children in Rafah, the children in burned out villages, the families who are being burned alive and starve to death? Netanyahu, you, Governor Patterson, please stand with the children alive. The man who's bombed hospitals and schools, which, outside of the tradition of the civil rights movement that you're trying to co opt in order to Attack a man for speaking a plain truth. Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal. Get over it. And the reason that we've called this the Empire Strikes Back is that what we're seeing is that the structural sort of establishment, the bipartisan structural establishment that has erected itself to support and defend this little European colony, which is what it started out as, they have now lost the plot. They have gone so over the top in attempting to defend this man, Benjamin Netanyahu, that they have become absurd. They have become literally and absurdity. And I want to just point out that it is not just Zorhan Mamdani who says that Benjamin Netanyahu should be arrested as a war criminal. There are 141 countries who also agree, because they are signatories to the International Criminal Court, that he should be arrested. They are all over the world, Canada, they are all over Africa, they are all over Europe, most of South America, most of Central America agrees. The mayor of London has said that Benjamin Netanyahu is not welcome in London. The Prime Minister of Spain has sided wholly with the Palestinian people and said that he would get arrested. Benjamin Netanyahu set foot in Spain. The government of Ireland has been very clear on the same line. Who all do you think are? George Wallace, former governor. I'm glad you're the former governor, by the way, because. Damn. And what's happening is that the empire, right, writ large, is fighting back, not just against this aspect of progressive change. They're fighting back against all of them. They want to fight against any kind of progressive that are winning elections because people are desperate for change and they are so freaked out by it. But I'm talking about just the democratic establishment are losing their minds over the advancement of progressivism. But let me get back to very quickly to Bibi. Benjamin Netanyahu did come to this country again, because of course, we are not signatories to the ICC. Did not get arrested. He landed in Washington, D.C. to attend the funeral of his good friend Lindsey Graham, who was laid to rest in Washington, D.C. yes, we call him him downstairs. Him really downstairs, because now he'd been buried. And so, of course, Benjamin Netanyahu was there chatting it up with the other future war criminals, Donald Trump, Pete Hegseth and Marco Rubio. There he was chatting with an emir from Saudi Arabia. There he is, Ben who? The noxious war criminal, chatting it up with future war criminal Pete Egseth, as well as with Marco Rubio, also a future war criminal. I think there you see Steve Witkoff or some other, whatever other blenditude that is inside of that administration. And Donald Trump, of course, was there as well. He dutifully fell asleep, as one does when one is a geriatric man of cognitive, with cognitive decline. So you can see a little bit of that. He kind of took a snooze during the, during the festivities. I think we'll find that a bit later. But the fact is the war criminal did come here, okay? He did come here. And I've been thinking a lot about this question of why it is that Israel is so critical and so crucial to both parties and they have built it so firmly into every plan that they have for the future of this country, so much so that they passed this section 219 of the National Defense Authorization act that embeds Israel in our military intelligence systems. And I've been thinking about why that is and that's what brings me back to this. This idea of the pack silica. Israel is embedded in that. So what Pax Silica is, it is an attempt to secure AI infrastructure in our hemisphere to prevent China from, from getting to the front of that race. China is already beating us in all things high tech. They're beating us in AI, they're beating us in electric vehicles, they're beating us in all of these aspects. And so a lot of Donald Trump's really cuckoo foreign policy is low key about stopping China from advancing. And Israel is a big part of that. If you put up a seven. Jason. So Pax Silica is of course being shepherded and championed by Peter Thiel because everything is right. Peter Thiel, who of course is a co founder of, of Palantir, which was initially funded by the CIA and by the CIA's investment arm and now their new project, this whole CIA Peter Thiel AI universe. And one of his operatives you can see on the left there, who is a former advisor to Peter Thiel, which is leading this for the State Department. This thing is called Paxsilica. And just so that you understand that it is about empire, I want you to listen to a Filipino official being asked how this new thing, PAC Silica, which is essentially again the US's attempt to take our region and secure AI infrastructure throughout the region in north and South America, but also in partnership with Israel. Here is how a Philippine. This is a gentleman in the Philippines who's being interviewed about it. Take us. So, sir, you can mean up over. We had talks about tax silica and

what it actually means.

No, but there are talks for that. It's going to generate jobs and also income Flow for our country. Pero bucket Meru retaliation on the ground when it comes to this infrastructure?

[Jamie Harrison]

Well probably it's not retaliation, it's probably opposition because one, we've been in this road earlier when they actually wanted to

[Daniel Levy]

build Texas instrument chips here in the Philippines.

[Jamie Harrison]

It's we never got to develop our own chip industry. They're just repeating the same pattern where they want something high tech built in the Philippines, but they need Philippine land, they need Philippine labor, but we don't actually get to use the endpoint where it's going to be for the Filipinos building things for the Philippines. And that's a problem with this PAC silica. They're building this AI data centers for the Philippines. It's going to use electricity, it's going to use our resources, it's going to use all of these things that will have a heavy burden for the communities around and yet it will not redound to real benefits to us because we're just still going to buy our data centers, our good AI credits from outside.

[Joy Reid]

And just very quickly the Jerusalem Post wrote of Pax silica the following under Pax Americana, which is the sort of world after World War II, global stability was guaranteed by treaties, signatures and ceremonies. That is no longer sufficient. Security now requires control over materials. Silicon, lithium, gallium, germanium and mastery of manufacturing design, quality control, software engineering and entrepreneurship. With this model, alliances depend on deep technological integration. The US goal is to create a bloc of friend shoring countries whose economies are interwoven at the level of critical infrastructure. Chip labs, data centers and the code that runs artificial intelligence. Membership in the supply chain guarantees strategic belonging. Exclusion has the opposite effect. Joining me now is Daniel Levy, political commentator and president of the US Middle East Project. Daniel, it's always good to talk to you. Thanks for being here.

[Daniel Levy]

Equally good to talk to you Joy and it's a pleasure being here.

[Joy Reid]

Thank you so much. I tend to have an inability to look at stories and see them in their individual merit. I tend to look for the broader picture. And in this obsession with protecting Israel I find it hard to believe that it's just religious or ideological. Right. I feel like it has to be something more. And so what I've come to is that Israel is so deeply embedded in the infrastructure of surveillance in our military tech tech, our kill tech industry and now in this, this Pax silica which they are a signatory to, to control resources around the world. Am I crazy for thinking that way?

[Daniel Levy]

Well, what I would kind of segue to from what you just suggested, Joy Is that decades of marinating American discourse, American thinking, American media, in this deference to Israel, in this automatic way of seeing Israel as Israel's good, Israel's us, Israel's a frontier civilization, as that has waned, as that has not become a winnable premise, Israel, part of what we're seeing is how do we continue to embed Israel in the things that America can help Israel with, which will make these two things inseparable. So that if you can no longer say to a member of Congress, this is great for you in that video, where you win your primary, where you win your election, own how much it was great to be with aipac. I'm not looking at anyone in Michigan, of course, when I say that, own how great it was to thank AIPAC to be in that relationship. If you can't do that anymore, then let's find other surreptitious ways. And so I think this is the, if you like, this is the smart answer to the problem they now confront, which is that you can't actually sell the moral case for Israel. You can in certain white supremacist circles, in certain people who say, that's fantastic, they're an ethno national state, we want to be that too, but that doesn't have a broad enough base of support. So instead of trying to win that case, you're trying to do things in another way. But I also take seriously what, what you've suggested, which is that Israel did succeed and it's always been the case that America got things from this relationship. I think on balance, America has paid a huge national security cost. The balance is way out of sync. But yes, there were ways. You know, people talked about Israel being the American aircraft carrier in that region during the Cold War. We've had a conversation before about, you know, is this a second Suez? But there were ways in which Israel was useful. What I would say though is while you can make the case that this is one of them, you can develop that kill tech and all those other things, you can develop an NSO and a black box and all those things that Israel has brought to the table, you can do those elsewhere. In fact, Israel probably could not have been the so called startup nation if it weren't for all the other things that America did in order to shield Israel from the consequences of what it does in the region, what it does to the Palestinians, et cetera. So my view is that you've got the grotesque, you called it absurd in your narrative right now, and I totally endorse that you've got the almost grotesque caricature today of how you do pro Israel politics. The kinds of attacks we see on Zoran Mamdani is one example. And then you've got various iterations of how do we win in a different way. And so I think things like Paxilica, things like the National Defense Authorization act, embedding Israel further in more surreptitious ways inside the American military without what would be seen as directly voting for money for Israel. But de facto, that's what you're doing. I would include in that smarter ways things like what Rahm Emanuel tried to pull off recently. He gives this speech as if I'm listening. I hear you. We have to do this differently. And then he proposes a whole load of things which are totally business as usual. And the cherry on the icing on the cake there is is the whole problem is Bibi hoping that in October, if Bibi loses, we can say problem solved. Now can we go back to doing nice? Israel politics, business as usual. So I think that's the interesting fault line, the grotesque, the absurd and the how do we smartly contend with this new reality?

[Joy Reid]

And I would add another one, you know, because the other piece of what our State Department is looking to do is to discredit the icc. I mean, its leaders are already sanctioned. They can't use their credit cards to go on holiday. They've made it impossible for them to do normal banking. They've had to, as one of the leaders of the ICC said, have to go back to the 90s and learn what it's like to live in a previous bygone era. They're trying to destroy the ICC itself. This obsession to me is starting to seem insane. You're saying that. I've heard people try to make the argument that if you complain about Israel killing 30,000 some odd children, Jewish people are not safe to walk down the street in New York City. I say that almost wanting to laugh, because what an insane argument that if they can't kill at will as many children as they want without complaint, then a Jewish person thousands of miles away in a different country isn't safe. I don't even understand it anymore.

[Daniel Levy]

And that is incredibly self defeating. Right? I totally get that as an act of statecraft of a sovereign state, Israel chooses to instrumentalize, to deploy to its benefit Jewish communities around the world. So if I'm Israel, if I'm sitting there and I say, you know what, some in my team think that we can keep the Palestinians in these Bantu stands, some, some Think apartheid doesn't go far enough because the Palestinians are still here, so we have to eradicate them. Either way, this probably isn't going to look so great to large cohorts of the world out there. Let's go on the offensive. Let's not wait to be attacked over those things. And let's create this whole narrative around we are the Jewish state. We've appropriated the symbols, we've appropriated the religion as much as we can. So if you attack us, you're attacking Jews anyway. Why are you such an anti. Why as mayor, are you being divisive and leading to these attacks? I get that as an act of statecraft. What I don't get is how Jews around the world, Jewish communities, Jewish establishments around the world would say, that sounds fantastic. Where do I sign up for it? Can we. Can we please do everything to defend what you are doing? Let's make it part of our identity. Let's forget that as a people we know what it's like to be discriminated against, to be gone after. We know what happens once you create an atmosphere of intolerance. And in fact, you know, many would say that being Jewish means a universal ethic as well. Let's park all of that stuff and let's make this the golden calf. The idol that we worship is a state, and it's statecraft which puts us at danger. And so that's the grotesque side. When the Anti Defamation League sets up a Mamdani watch when he gets elected, what argument do you think you're winning there? It's the Jews of New York and of America who are actually going to be the first ones going out and defending their mayor. Their mayor, who they supported significantly in his election, who is more popular among American Jews than the prime minister of the state of Israel, according to recent polling. And who, by putting forward this notion of the arrest, even if he can't deliver it, has advanced this conversation. And we now see the polling that half of all Americans would like to see Netanyahu arrested. He's going to run rings around you, just. Just as he has run rings around many other political opponents. So what you are doing, in effect, is actually making life more dangerous for Jews. The proximate cause, and it's hard to say, but I'm going to say it. The proximate cause of so much antisemitism today is the insistence that Israel speaks for us, that we're there to defend Israel, that there's no distinction. All the things we used to say the opposite. You have to Draw a distinction between Jewish people here, there, anywhere and Israel? No, we have to absolutely get rid of that distinction. But many, many Jews are not buying it. And I think we are in a new era of Jewish life. Joy. I think there was the. If you want to divide the post Holocaust. If I can just elaborate on this for one moment, please divide the post Holocaust era. I would say we're maybe now in the third phase. The first phase was just recovering from the shock. What went on, how do we move on? And that was about communities coming back together. And that was also about Israel, was part of that story. I think the second era, maybe it began after the 67 war, maybe it began earlier. Israel assumes a centrality. Israel becomes this unavoidable centerpiece in Jewish life. And I think we've now entered a new era where for many. And it's an era of fragmentation. It's an era of deep division. It's going to be really uncomfortable for lots of people in their family life even. But it's an era in which more and more people are going to say, I'm Jewish. And that has nothing to do with me as a Jewish. I'm going to stand up against that thing. And it's really the era where Zionism becomes deeply contested and I think ultimately loses its grip and things fracture around that point. I'll give you one anecdotal, but I think really telling a story about that. There is a book that has been on the New York Times bestseller list. It is by. Look, she's an awesome writer and it's a fantastic book. But you can only understand the extent to which it has gotten attention, especially in Jewish circles in the following way. That book is by Molly Crabapple. It's here where we are as our country. A history of the Jewish Bund. The Bund was the attempt by Jewish workers to be part of pre war and interwar, especially interwar European socialist revolution. But saying we also as Jewish working class people face a second level of struggle because of anti Semitism, but it was overtly anti Zionist. It has this fantastic phenomenal history of Jewish organizing, Jewish revolutionary organizing. And people are like, I want to read this because I want to find something in our history that doesn't center around this thing, Israel, this country that is claiming that I should have some allegiance to it and that keeps conducting these abominations which stand against everything I stand for. And so the popularity of something like Molly Crabapple's book is just another indication of this physio of this crack of this new Reality amongst Jews, you know, especially in the United States where you are.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. I mean, I would argue that the Goodman, Schwerner, Jewish, pro civil rights, those kinds of people. Those people, if they were alive today, would be fighting Bibi Netanyahu. They would be against him because they were against the oppression and apartheid happening here. Why would you be for apartheid there and against it here? I want to talk to you about Netanyahu himself because he has a special kind of arrogance. I recently finally got a chance to watch the BB Files, which is very telling. I recommend everybody. I think we should do a screening of it here. I'm going to try to find those filmmakers and do a screening here. It's brilliant. It's important. He is arrogant on a level that only Donald Trump can really match. Let me play him arrogantly saying that he will be coming to New York where he is not welcome.

[Jamie Harrison]

Criminal court has an arrest warrant out for you, which of course alleges that

[Daniel Levy]

you conducted war crimes in New York City.

[Jamie Harrison]

Right here, where I am, the mayor elect, Zoran Mandami says that he would comply with the ICC and he would arrest you. We've long wanted to do one of these interviews in person right here in

[Joy Reid]

New York, by the way. And I was.

[Jamie Harrison]

I didn't answer your question, Andrew. I'll come to New York.

[Joy Reid]

Okay.

[Jamie Harrison]

And that was my question. Would you come to New York given what the mayor has said about arresting you?

[Joy Reid]

Yes, of course I will.

[Jamie Harrison]

And you will test that. I mean, what is the thought about how that would work? Well, why don't you wait and see?

[Joy Reid]

Yes, I'll come to New York.

[Jamie Harrison]

Would you want to talk to him, by the way? Well, you know, if he changes his mind and says that we have the

[Daniel Levy]

right to exist, that'll be a good

[Joy Reid]

opening for a conversation.

[Jamie Harrison]

This lunatic mayor in New York thinking you may get arrested if you go to New York, which will never happen.

[Joy Reid]

First of all, I'm going to New York. Yeah, I'd love to see you there

[Jamie Harrison]

when I go to the UN in September.

[Joy Reid]

You know, I moved to Florida. You know, you can take a. I'll come up.

[Daniel Levy]

Yeah, you can come.

[Joy Reid]

You've come to Washington, so you can go there, but I'm definitely going there. I'm going to speak the truth in front of this. You know, there's just hate spewing. Elected official who's pitting one group of New Yorkers against the others. He's turning them against New York Jews. I mean, what are we in the 1930s?

What is this?

You know, so much hate, so many lies. So many lies, indeed. I mean, there is nothing that Zorhan Mamdani has done to turn people against New York Jews. I actually suspect that he'll probably get protested by more New York Jewish people than embrace him. What do you expect to happen when this man sets foot in a city that I would guess probably despises him?

[Daniel Levy]

I mean, this is precisely the modus operandi that has brought us to an unprecedented place in American public discourse regarding Israel. We could not have got here, God bless him, without the hubris, the arrogance of Benjamin Netanyahu. I think some people are hoping that when he loses, there will be a new honeymoon period. You already have. You can see David Remnick of the New Yorker kind of losing himself in excitement that maybe I can save this liberal Zionist thing and writing this huge piece about the alternative guy, Gaddy Eisenhower. Gaddy Eisenhower. Is he going to be an improvement on Bibi when the bar is set that low? Absolutely. He has said, in my 66 years, I have never said the word Palestinian state. Nevertheless, we will be told that once if. And it's still a big if. But if Bibi is gone, once he's gone, then the problem is solved. Now we can all go back to loving Israel. I don't think that will last long because the society has gone in. We need to pull it back. You know, I don't believe Jewish Israelis have no future there, but an ethnocentric supremacist state, the regime ideology has no future future there. But anyway, I think that's, you know, that's one play that we will see. But I would say these kinds of grotesque figures are Jonathan Pod Horetz appearing and saying, you know, this is great Jewish money defeated Thomas Massie. Yeah, bring those things on. Because they have created the. I would say they have created circumstances where it's game on, where decades of entrenching an appalling American position on Israel, therefore on the Palestinians, on the region, is up for grabs. It's not game over. I really caution people on that. There's a new book 20 years after Walt Mearsheimer wrote the Israel Lobby. There's a new book coming out soon by Ian Lustig and Eli Clifton on the Israel Lobby today. And. And they walk us through how independent expenditure campaigns, how that Citizens United ruling, how the deployment of antisemitism, the deployment of legal tools in universities in different states. They call it a McIsraelism as a kind of modern McCarthyism. So it is still, you know, there is still an awful lot that the lobby can bring to bear, but it is finally game on. And, and I think what you see in this attack on the icc, in this attack on the un, you know what, it takes me back to your Pax Silica point, if I can, because the core of that, as you were helping us to understand Joy, is the idea of friendshoring. Well, there's a clue in the phrase friendshoring of what you need in order to be able to do that. You need friends, friends. And America is making that really difficult because the American effort to take down the un, to take down the icc, we saw something just epic, remarkable this week at the un. There was an attempt by America to block the reappointment of the UN Commissioner for Human Rights, Volker Turk, who, who led the charge against him. The us they had a few helpers. I think North Korea were on board with that effort. Israel was sure on board with that effort. Russia were on board with that effort. But there was actually a spat between France and America at the Security Council. This president has consistently insulted his friends. Those same people are supposed to be doing the friendshoring with Israel at the center of it. And you know what happened in parallel to Paxilica and you again, you helped us understand that actually America is getting its clock cleaned increasingly on technology. So, you know, everyone's busy making tons of money on these tech stock IPOs. And then whoever, you know, wasn't feeding at the trough on day one loses their money as the stocks collapse. But you see what Deepseek, and I think a new one's called Kim3. You see what these are achieving out of China. And just this month, earlier this month, rather than having this kind of. What do we really mean, Paxilica? How can we impose in the AI tech world further forms of neo colonialism in how we try and manage the global economy? You had China convene a group and it's not tripping off my tongue yet, so I'm going to read the name of it to you. The World Artificial Intelligence Cooperation Organization. So China launched that and they said, look, tech will need to be controlled by humans. They actually said a lot of really stuff on how we need to manage AI. You had 29 countries there, some of them, some of them America's best friends in Africa who signed up, Kenya, Ethiopia. Yeah, but Brazil was there, Indonesia was there. So you're also seeing that as America loses friends, people are looking at other ways of convening multilateral. In a world which America no longer carries primacy or preponderance. But it also doesn't carry respect. And Israel has been a key ingredient to the demeaning, undermining and loss of respect internationally. And that does not put Israel in a glowing light. And it doesn't help Israel's international equities either.

[Joy Reid]

Indeed. And keep an eye on this because one of the members of Paxilica is, is the eu, which is under tremendous pressure to break from Israel. And the global south is left out. And like you said, they've got a friend that they're making and it's called China. Daniel Levy, one of my favorite people to talk to ever, ever, ever. I appreciate you. I hope you will come back often. Thank you so much for taking the time.

[Daniel Levy]

It's great to be with you, Joy. Thank you.

[Joy Reid]

Cheers. Thanks so much. All right, we're gonna hold off on playing a little memory of Lindsey Graham because I want to, I want you guys to take a listen to this line of verse. Take a listen. As the killing of a white man, white mother, son. We who believe in freedom cannot. We who believe in freedom cannot rest. And we did license that music. YouTube. Thank you very much. Following the lynchings of Andrew Goodman, James Cheney and Michael Schroer, as we talked about earlier with Daniel, three Freedom Summer workers, of course, who disappeared in June of 1964 in rural Mississippi. Civil rights leader Ella Baker wrote those lines, which became a seminal plea for the civil rights movement during the nationally publicized weeks long search for Mr. Cheney, who was black, and Goodman and Schwerner, who were white. FBI investigators also found the bodies of several other murdered black men whose disappearances had not received the same attention. Baker's statement was a rallying cry and a plea for justice and for visibility. And that line would decades later be put to song, as you just heard, including by the group Sweet Honey and the Rock. Ella Baker's cry for repair is today reflected in a movement that, that is calling on America's faith leaders to step forward and fight back against the erosion of our civil rights and our democracy. It's called Voices of Repair. And joining me now are two of the leaders of this movement. Chelsea Fuller, senior strategist and managing partner of Black Alder llc, and the co executive director of Black Alder Labs, as well as Takara Pierce, co founder and managing partner of Black Alder and a senior media narrative and communications strategist. Thank you both for being here. Chelsea, I do want to start with you. Explain to me what Voices of Repair is meant to be and what it's meant to do well.

Hi, Joy.

[Chelsea Fuller]

So nice to see you. Thank you for having us. And it was really powerful to hear and see that video in this context. Those words hold a lot of power and a lot of truth for us in our communities. Voices of Repair is a multi platform campaign that's actually activating the power and the legacy of the black church and the press to counter harmful narratives about this country, about America at 250, about the next 250, and about our faith communities and these narratives, these are narratives that we know are ultimately rooted in white Christian nationalism. So the campaign is intended to activate black faith leaders, laypersons, people of good faith across all black faith traditions, across all of the Abrahamic traditions. And folks are delivering synchronized sermons, they're giving speeches, they're giving community talks and leading Bible studies and organizing meetings that are centered in repair, that are centered in what our sacred texts say about repair as a way to combat Christian nationalist narratives and storytelling that is happening across this country and also as an attempt to help us unroot Christian nationalist ideologies that exist in our faith lives as black people.

[Joy Reid]

And so, you know, Takara, you know, we here have a great relationship with Bishop William Barber and Moral Mondays is one of the efforts that he has led, repairs of the breach being another. So there are a lot of faith efforts that are out there that are trying to sort of organize against white Christian nationalism. How will this effort be synchronized with those different from those? Tell me, what is the relationship between these movements?

Yeah, we welcome faith leaders across the spectrum to join us in this campaign. And you know, it's, it's interesting because the black church has never had a legacy of accepting the terms of its own oppression. Right. Our faith ancestors built institutions. We fought for freedom. We've demanded justice from a nation that has long denied our humanity. So this isn't new territory for faith leaders, for the black church. It's our very foundation. So we're welcoming everyone to join us in these efforts. We're joining organizations like Faith in Action, an amazing faith coalition who's throwing down with us to make sure that we can show up for our people in the ways that this moment really calls for.

You know, Chelsea, I made the mistake, you know, you should not. Don't spend too much time doom scrolling because you're gonna wind up on something you don't really wanna watch. I saw all of this sort of plaque of YouTube Videos of black pastors defending Donald Trump, and I was horrified by this is a thing. The church has generally been the core of the civil rights movement. But you do have some in the church that are preaching white Christian nationalism. Inside the black church even. What do we do about that? Because some people are going to a church that they believe in, they trust, but they're getting programmed with MAGA messages from the pulpit.

[Chelsea Fuller]

Yeah, Joy, that's part of why we felt so moved and called to lead a campaign that was actually focused on narrative and storytelling, specifically focused on black faith communities. Because what we know, and your colleague and your friend Robbie and his team at PRRI have done amazing research that show that a good number of black people of faith in this country, black Christians in this country, actually adhere to Christian nationalist ideology. And what we are finding, the more that we get into this campaign and the more that we are in community with people, is that that is shocking to many folks, right? Including people who themselves may hold these ideologies or who may use. They may be making decisions about their lives, about the people around them that are informed and kind of sullied by these nationalist ideas. They exist inside of our faith communities for a number of reasons. In large part because Christian nationalism, nationalism is not a new phenomenon. It has been a part of our experience as black people in this country. So since we arrived here, since our ancestors arrived here. So in order to counter that, what we have to do is first and foremost explain to people in a way that they can understand what Christian nationalism is, right? That nationalism is an ideology. Christian nationalism exists on a spectrum, with white Christian nationalism being at the far extreme end of that. And people exist all along that spectrum. So what we're hoping this campaign and other efforts do is help folks understand that. Help folks understand that many of us exist on that spectrum and that as black folks of faith, we may be, you know, people that are absolutely against anti black racism, anti immigrant sentiment, that we are for the liberation of all people. But that does not mean that we are still not holding some of those ideologies, ideologies that maybe are telling you that you have to be a child of God before that, before you're black, right? That your blackness and your divinity have to be separated, that your allegiance to this country requires that you vote in support of policies that actually are not life giving or that are harmful to other communities. We have to get to the root of what this thing is, expose people to the foundations of it, so they can start to identify person by person and community by community, how this stuff is manifesting in our daily lives and how it's showing up in really nuanced and textured ways.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, I mean, and Chakara, I mean, I can tell you some of the open doors that the white Christian nationalists are rushing through. And I specifically do call it white Christian nationalists. Robby and I, this is our pact because we're trying to name what it really is. And as you said, there are black Christians that are getting involved in this. There are black people in other faith traditions, in Islam and other traditions that are getting on board with this. But the root of it is white supremacy. Right. Even if you're a black person that's pushing it, it's not pushing black supremacy and black Christian supremacy at all. But to car. Some of the ways that they're getting in is that they're keying on things that trigger people. Trans kid playing sports. And suddenly people are all triggering like, oh, yeah, I got to be for the. I got to go with this Christian nationalism because it's going to protect my daughters from a trans competitor on the soccer field or that go in. Also, for some who want to suppress women's liberation, they say, oh, yeah, you know, if you could just get them back in the kitchen, and then they might. I might feel that way too. I may be a person of color, but I kind of want the woman back in the kitchen. Right. So they're finding social ways to trigger people into their movement. And how would this campaign work against that?

Yeah, I mean, I want to give a really salient example that speaks to exactly what you just named. So there was this particular moment that really stayed with Chelsea and I when we were building this campaign. We were speaking with a black deacon, probably mid to late 60s, with decades of service in the black church. And during a discussion about what was happening in his city, he shared, he said, I abhor the killing of black children by police. I believe in invest, divest organizing. I want to take on a leadership role in this mutual aid program. However, he said that he felt like some of those killings resulted from, in part from children's behaviors which stem from God being taken out of schools. Right. He didn't experience those two beliefs as being in tension with one another. To him, they were the same conviction, you know, stated twice, really, just from two different directions. So what that means we have to do as narrative strategists and inside of this campaign is be incredibly precise about language. Exactly what we were talking about here, Christian nationalism is not, it is exactly, as you named, identical to white Christian nationalism. But the version that is doing the most damage right now inside of our communities, in adjacent communities, is the one that's shaping America 250 narratives. And that is white Christian nationalism specifically. So we have to name it directly. We have to be clear about the distinctions between Christian nationalism and white Christian nationalism. And we have to be clear about the ways that it's showing up in the black church.

Yeah. And I will give another trigger thing that unfortunately I'm hearing sometimes coming out of the mouths of people who look like us is this anti immigrant sentiment, this sense that there really are black jobs that are being taken by brown immigrants and that we shouldn't be with them or that we should shun the whole Palestinian issue because, you know, I, you know, once had an Arab shopkeeper be rude to me in, you know, in Queens. And so therefore they're not with us. And, you know, they all hate Kamala Harris. Like, there are different ways you can get in. I'm noticing in the Texas Senate race, the candidate there, and I know you guys are not a partisan organization, is explicitly. While this person has never cared about black people or shown any concern. So, no, no, black people are with us because they don't like trans. They don't like the trans stuff either. Like, they're finding ways to say, well, we can connect with you on social stuff so that you'll sell out your economic future. It is pretty insidious, but it sometimes works.

[Chelsea Fuller]

Yeah. And it. And it's moving people, you know, talking point by talking point, example by example, connection by connection along the spectrum towards a version of this that is very insidious and very harmful and dangerous. So when we're talking about adherence to Christian nationalist ideology and white Christian nationalism specifically, specifically, we know that our folks exist in a part of this spectrum where they're actually move. More people are moving to the right in ways that will impact our social conditions, our political reality, and also just the ways in which we are able to practice our faith together in ways that are safe and life affirming. Right. So hearing folks say things like what you're naming, I believe in, you know, I believe in, you know, the protection of all children from state sanctioned violence. But I'm not with the gay stuff. Right. We have to figure out what kind of storytelling, whether it is from the pulpit or whether it needs to be person to person at a kitchen table needs to happen to get folks to start thinking about this differently, to reignite their divine imagination around what it means to be a part of not just a healthy society and a healthy democracy, but a beloved community and for people of faith. Right. We're hearing across the spectrum that one of the biggest kind of wow moments is when folks are realizing that I may have been a Christian all of my life, but I'm finding I have more in common based on what I think my faith says about the other. I have more in common with those who are trying to oppress me and who have always tried to oppress our people than I have with the people sitting in the pew next to me, the queer and the trans person sitting in the pew next to me, or with the unwed mother who wants to serve but is getting shunned because of her moral failure. Right? So it's those types of aha moments that are opening up opportunities for people to say, well, wait, what is this actually? Why do I feel like this? Does my faith actually tell me this? Does my faith actually say that immigrants should be deported from this country? Or does the red text in my book actually tell me to love, support, protect and defend the immigrant then and to do unto others as you know how it shows up in many of the texts, Right? So we're actually asking people not to ignore Christianity's role in some of in the building of empire and the harmful, other harmful institutions that have been propped up by Christianity, by warped versions of Christianity that have led to national Christian nationalism as we know it today. We're asking people to hold the tension, especially black folks of faith who deeply understand how our faith traditions came to be inside of enslavement, how we birthed traditions that were deeply diasporic, where we brought our relationship with the divine with us through that experience and then built something new and authentic that allowed us to worship and be in our full blackness and our full personhood while experiencing oppression. We're asking people hold the tension. We understand that that's not something we can ignore any race either. But we also know what's being advanced and what's being promoted is not the faith that many of us know and it's actually not the truth of the Jesus or of the Christian believers that many of us have known and also believe in inside of our traditions.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, Black Jesus ain't with none of this, if you're being honest. Takara, tell people how they can be a part of this and get involved in this really wonderful campaign.

Yes. Join [e-mail] if you fill out the form on the website, we will send you a sermonic toolkit where you can across different Abrahamic faith traditions, get access to narrative and faith based tools to deliver sermons, to engage in editorial content, to show up in your community with all of this information. We want as many people involved as possible. We have people across the south, the Midwest, east coast, everywhere who, you know, folks joining us to really throw down. And we want you all to throw down with us, too. You don't have to be a faith leader. You can be an everyday person. And we're really excited to just continue this through the fall.

I love it. Making. Making Jesus great again, Making Jesus nice again. We love that. We love Jesus. We just want people to make him be likable again. Chelsea Fuller and all the Patriots, not just Jesus. So it's not. We're. We're not blocking anybody out. We're not blocking any blessings. Chelsea Fuller, Takara Pierce, thank you both very much. Come back and keep us up to date on this. Wonderful.

[Chelsea Fuller]

Thank you for having us.

[Joy Reid]

Thank you for having us.

Cheers. Thank you so much. Look, I'm telling you people, I love having that on Jason, because people are starting to think that all religion is terrible. Because we talk so much about the downsides and the terrible things that religious folk are doing that I. Every so often, we want to lift up something positive that's being done in the name of religion. Because there is. Yeah. Because people are doing, like, religious cuckoo extremism. But some people are trying to do good things. Let me play really quickly to go back on the other side. Since he did just die, since him

[Jamie Harrison]

downstairs, like, we're gonna go and make a U turn.

[Joy Reid]

I'll make a real quick U turn because we didn't get to play this with for Daniel, but because I just wanted to let him cook. He's so brilliant. I'm like, I gotta hear everything this man has to say. And so I didn't get a chance to play my last ode to him downstairs. Lindsey Graham.

He.

Before he passed, there was a guess somebody was making, like, a documentary about him. I guess to speak of somebody who's on the other side of a faith tradition. And he had this call, y', all, with Bibi Netanyahu. The aforementioned Bibi Netanyahu. And this call is kind of wild. It's gone viral for all the wrong reasons. Jason, if you have a 11, if you could let her it.

[Chelsea Fuller]

Do you have it on speaker? Ryan?

[Daniel Levy]

Yep.

[Joy Reid]

We're good.

[Chelsea Fuller]

Okay. All right.

[Joy Reid]

Connecting you now.

Yeah.

[Lindsey Graham]

Hello?

[Jamie Harrison]

Hey, baby. Lindsay.

[Joy Reid]

Hey, Lindsay. How are you? I couldn't. I'm just so impressed. Glad to be your friend. Glad you are my friend. I'm going to meet with the president this weekend. I'm going down to Doral. I'm going to Try to get him to join with y' all in Lebanon to maybe fly some with you. Would you like that? Yeah, I. I get that.

[Chelsea Fuller]

I think.

[Joy Reid]

I think you're at a point. But I've been thinking about the other

[Jamie Harrison]

side of it for a second. We're concentrating right now on your bomb.

[Joy Reid]

If.

If we tell Hezbollah that we're going all the way, we threaten them. But if we actually do it, okay, then they have no reason not to

[Daniel Levy]

go all the way against us.

[Joy Reid]

And right now that's not our interest. Okay, we can do it later. Well, I'll.

[Latasha Brown]

Okay, well, that's.

[Joy Reid]

That's actually good counsel. I put it out there as an idea. We can always go back to it. And that is why him downstairs? Because mother Lindsay was a warmonger so bad that even the. The vicious Bibi the Butcher was like, you know, maybe we could wait on getting you guys to bomb Lebanon with us. Maybe, maybe you could bomb Lebanon with us later. Even Bibi the Butcher was like, yeah, maybe not today, Lindsay. Like, calm down, buddy. Do you have to be so eager to get, you know, us bombers bombing Lebanon? Like, he's like, chilled out, dude.

[Jamie Harrison]

Do you want us to fly some missions with you?

[Joy Reid]

Want us to fly some missions? You talk about bombing in other countries.

[Jamie Harrison]

Crazy.

[Joy Reid]

He want to put American air Force, our air force over Lebanon to join Israel in bombing the living crap out of a country that has not attacked us at all. And he was so casual and he was so into the warmongering. That is why him downstairs.

[Jamie Harrison]

I'm going down to Mar a Lago this weekend. I'm going to tell my friend, we need to join in with you. Kill more people.

[Joy Reid]

The chat said that the hell is hot. Hell is full him downstairs. And we don't know if. If Truchi Mitchie's with him. You're a vegetable. This is my favorite meme about Mitch. Let me move on. Welcome to hour two of the Joy Read Show. We appreciate everybody that is here. If you have not hit like and subscribe yet. Oh, my God. How dare you. If you have not hit the like button yet, please hit it now. We want to make sure that you guys are, you know, don't be a lurker. Be a member. Be a. Be a friend. If you want to be, actually become a member as well. We do a once a month members only chit chat. We're about to add some more wonderful features to our membership. Stay tuned because we've got some other very cool things that we are cooking up for our members over on the YouTube side, if you are not a subscriber over at Substack, you can do that for free. That way you can also get my written musings. Every so often I write a thing. We've also got some amazing writers that write for Joy's house, and it's perfectly free. You can go on over to joynreid.com, hit subscribe over there, and that way you can even get more. And what I do Also love about substack2 is that you can also later on go back, watch the episodes that you missed and get a little text with it. And sometimes I do like the background research. I throw those links in there. So it's a good little. It's a good little thing to have. We do love our Substack. So make sure that you guys support the substack as well. And the Substack have their own chat, the members over there, and they're doing it right now. They've got their own chat. Chat that's their very own. It's like a little group chat of their very own, which is very fun. Also, if you're not on Twitch yet, become a Twitchy. Consider it. The Twitchies are super chill. They're super fun. We got Katie did 99 over there. You've got spicy D1. Oh, my God, I love that name. I just. I know I like spicy D1. Say I came in late, which Patterson made the statements about Wallace. That would be David Patterson, the former governor of New York, who. Who likened Zorhan Mamdani to George Wallace. All right, so that is that to catch up my Twitch. You want to make sure that our Twitchies are always on point and they know what's going on. So let's go through here. I. I want to. For this hour, too, we're going to reset just a little bit. Rolling Stone magazine, which used to be like counterculture when I was growing up, they've joined the Empire. They've decided that they're going to tisk to the Democratic Party for letting all these socialists get through. They're like, what are all these little DSA socialists doing popping up and asking, does the socialist surge doom Democrats? Which is a weird thing to have in Rolling Stone, to be honest with you. They used to be a counterculture, you know, icon, and now it's like, you know, maybe we don't want all these young radical leftists, you know, hanging around with us, which is a weird thing to want. But I can see why the Empire is concerned. If you go to WISCO to Wisconsin, which has gone back and forth between being a super union state to being a conservative state for a while, sort of the hallmark of the Republican Party. Much of the Republican establishment used to come from there. We used to call it the Wisco Mafia. Donald Trump's first spokesman came from there. Sean Spicer came from there. Wisco Mafia has kind of withered and Wisconsin has started to go back the other way. They elected a majority Democratic leaning state supreme Court. And right now there's a woman named Francesca Hong who is leading in the governor's race. She is the top candidate.

[Latasha Brown]

Right now.

[Joy Reid]

You can see Mandela Barnes, who previously ran for the United States Senate, got hosed by the dscc. They didn't know how to run his campaign. And he also tried to moderate. He used to be the most progressive out of that group, but he kind of moderated on his way to try to become a senator. Every other statewide Democrat won. He lost. And you can make of that what you will. But right now, someone to his left, Francesca Hong, who is the DSA candidate, she just might end up being the governor of Wisconsin. Why is that important? Because it's the Midwest. And the Midwest is the new place where progressivism and democratic socialism is popping. It's not just New York and, you know, green, you know, Colorado, with all the Birkenstock wearers of Colorado, Washington, D.C. which is also usually not that liberal of a state. But now all of a sudden it's got a DSA mayor. It's now hitting the Midwest. The wave is hitting the Midwest. So Wisconsin is happening. And then you get to Missouri where Cori Bush is in an epic rematch with Wesley Bell, the APAC funded candidate who first vowed to never run against her, but then switched from being a statewide Senate candidate to running against her for Congress, as he said. And we're going to talk about this on Friday when we have Cori Bush on the show. He said he specifically joined the race for Congress against Cori Bush because he didn't like the things she said after January 6th. I mean, October 6th. I mean, October 7th. I'm sorry, sorry. After October 7th. Sorry. October 7th, 2023, in another country, Israel. Not something she did in Missouri. Not the way that she represented the people of District 1 in Missouri. Not the way she responded to Ferguson where she was not. No, no, no. He ran for Congress because he didn't like what she said about Israel after October 7, 2023. A weird reason to run. AIPAC gifted him with about $15 million and he beat her. Well, she's now running for a rematch there. So that's the Midwest again and again we'll see her on the show on Friday. And then you've got Michigan where Abdul El Sayed, the progressive candidate, he's not DSA but he's a progressive. He just scored the endorsement of OG liberal Congressman Bonnie Watson Coleman in New Jersey. Remember she was one of the three members including Lamonica McIver who were tousled around outside of Delaney hall when they tried to inspect that private prison on the other side. Big gretch, Gretchen Whitmer, the governor has endorsed Haley Stevens who is the AIPAC supported candidate who's got about $50 million of AIPAC money rolling for her. Let me play you a little bit. This week they had a debate, Haley Stevens versus Dr. Abdul El Sayed. And here it is. This is C4. Here's a bit of that debate.

[Jamie Harrison]

Both you about your campaigns respectively when it comes to certain questions that people have. Congresswoman will begin with you and we'll dive right into that right now. Heard many people the question about aipac and it seems as though on many instances you haven't directly answered the question. Do you see why some people are bothered by the fact that so much money, 40 plus million dollars has come from AIPAC for these PACs to talk about you and to promote you and to put them put you up as a candidate?

[Lindsey Graham]

Yeah, and I appreciate the question Root because this moment in this country and here in Michigan, people have every right to be frustrated about our campaign finance system. My opponent here on this stage, Abdul, he's got a super PAC that his father in law funds that has millions of dollars going into it. And look in terms of foreign policy, you know, Abdul and I do differ. I believe in a two state solution. He has attacked me by name for purporting that the people of Palestine and the people, people of Israel deserve to live side by side peacefully. The goal is always long term peace. And also the Prime Minister of Israel has attacked me by name. They both represent the extremes. Look, Michiganders want peace. They deserve to see peace. And that is where I have always cast my vote and that is the work that I want to do for

[Jamie Harrison]

Congresswoman US specifically about APEC money. More than $46 million has been spent on APEC spending to back your campaign. A lot of people wonder if that is something where they're, you know you're going to do their bidding when you should you win this seat. Is that something should people should be concerned about? And if not, why not?

[Lindsey Graham]

Absolutely not. Look, I have been very clear, consistent and transparent and I have continued to be. I want to see long term peace. I want to see a two state solution. I am deeply proud to represent one of the largest Jewish populations in a congressional district in the country. This is a community that I have grieved alongside, that I've mourned alongside and have fought to bring the hostages home. And I'm still working to get us to long term peace.

[Jamie Harrison]

But no concern about the 46 million plus dollars spent on the behalf of AB PAC. That should worry people about perhaps you doing their bidding should you win the seat.

[Lindsey Graham]

Well, I don't think there's much difference between Super PACs going in for Abdul or Super PACs going in for me. We have a problem with campaign finance reform in this country. I have an A grading from N Citizens United. I have been endorsed by Defend the Vote. I have voted consistently. And I'm going to stop Mike Rogers from getting anywhere close to the United States Senate, which is why he doesn't want to run against me and which is why somebody like Governor Whitmer is supporting me in this race.

[Jamie Harrison]

Congresswoman Stevens, thank you.

[Joy Reid]

Trying to find the answer to the question. I feel like maybe it's under here.

[Jamie Harrison]

I think I found it.

[Joy Reid]

Did you find the answer? Did she answer the question? Because I couldn't garbage. Okay. Because yeah, I'm looking, I'm looking around. I'm like, maybe we lost the answer to the question. Maybe the answer's. I'm looking. Okay. All right. Well, she didn't answer. She didn't answer the question. And meaning, yes, I am going to do their bidding. Okay. Because she is APAC funds you. You do their bidding or they stop funding you. It's very simple. Now let's hear another clip from the debate. And this is when Dr. Abdul El Sayed was questioned about his tax returns.

[Jamie Harrison]

Here.

[Lindsey Graham]

That is least your full tax returns. $300,000 in other income while you sat in the podcast chair and you hawked talked junk health care cures that RFK Jr would thumbs up. You talk about getting money out of politics and putting money in people's pockets, but still no one knows who's putting the money in your pocket. You know, I have been transparent and I am offering, you know, real plans to address the cost of living. We want to be able to tackle Donald Trump.

[Jamie Harrison]

And you're talking about what you did. But you also made some accusations here. Dr. Alison Syed, that is a question that some people may have that congresswoman is talking about. Talk about the Money and the financial disclosures. You were going to release something. We released all of our financial disclosures.

[Daniel Levy]

Again, this is a distraction from the

[Jamie Harrison]

issues in your life. I'd love to talk about transparency. I really would.

[Daniel Levy]

Because I want you to ask yourself.

[Jamie Harrison]

There is this group called the center for Democratic Priorities.

[Daniel Levy]

They didn't exist until they popped up and started running ads for my opponent.

[Jamie Harrison]

And then there's this other group called called Center Forward that paid for a flight for the congresswoman and her mother to go to Portugal. And they just released their donors. And then it's a whole bunch of Shell 501C4 organizations.

[Daniel Levy]

They're the folks who are literally putting money in our pockets right now to try and miss and disinform us about this race.

[Jamie Harrison]

And here's the thing about it.

[Daniel Levy]

None of it actually makes your life better. Think about the $60 million that got spent in this race.

[Jamie Harrison]

What could $60 million do for a community in Detroit?

[Daniel Levy]

What could $60 million mean for erasing medical debt?

[Joy Reid]

I'll tell you.

[Jamie Harrison]

$6 billion it could erase. But they want to spend it to get the congresswoman elected.

[Latasha Brown]

Why?

[Daniel Levy]

Because at the end of the day, they know that they're going to have

[Jamie Harrison]

a safe seat doing their bidding instead of yours. Every single dollar that DTE is spending

[Daniel Levy]

is a down payment on knowing that

[Jamie Harrison]

they can raise your rates.

[Daniel Levy]

Every single dollar that Blue Cross Blue Shield spends in this race is a down payment on raising your premium.

[Jamie Harrison]

All right.

[Daniel Levy]

Every single dollar.

[Jamie Harrison]

Thank you, Dr. Al. I want to ask some more questions.

[Joy Reid]

I'm just saying you could put $60 million into Detroit and probably send how many children to Head Start or ensure housing repairs which are desperately needed in Detroit. These outside organizations are not coming in and spending all that money because they want to help poor people. Because they want to raise the cost, raise the, you know, the quality of life of ordinary people. They're coming in because they want a candidate who will do what they say. Like that is what big money is all about. It's the reason that Citizens United is so toxic and so noxious and how it has been so destructive to our politics. Because these big donors don't come in and fund these candidates just for the hell of it. They fund them because they want them to do what they say. And unfortunately, when it comes to the AIPAC and a PAC affiliated candidates, what they want them to do is vote for more money for Israel. That's what they want. They're not all that interested in any other topic. It's not like they have a bunch of different topics. They just care about that one thing. And it's the same thing. When the tobacco lobby used to fund and used to hand out checks, remember back in the day, right on the House, floor checks from the tobacco lobby used to get handed out. It's not because the tobacco lobby wanted to make sure there was enough play equipment in every community or, you know, make sure that people had health. No, they wanted to make sure that their tobacco products would be unregulated. Like, these lobbies are very single issue. They don't care about all the things. They care about the one thing, you know, Dr. Syed talked about the utility companies that are also funding his opponent. They want one thing. They want deregulation. Like, it's not like that. Mysterious what big money wants, right? They want the one thing that is their prime directive. And Apex prime directive is getting money for Israel, more bombs, more things for them, and more of a cushy lifestyle at art expense. You know, that's what they want and that's what they get. And so the thing is, yeah, okay, you can believe the lie that Haley Stevens is somehow the Obama candidate, even though he hasn't endorsed anyone and big gretches for her and he's being sort of classed as the candidate for black Michiganders. But I think that what we have to do is be a little bit more discerning and ask what policies are for you. Like, what policies are going to make your life better? Who is going to put more money in your pocket and more assistance on the table for you to be able to live a better life? Like, you know, the job of a senator is to bring home resources to the state. That is the job. And so whichever one of these people becomes senator, that's going to be their job, right? To bring home resources to ensure that their state is fully funded from top to bottom, from health care to schools to education and on and on to fight for Medicaid, which is now under threat from the federal government, all of those things. So that's what's happening in the Midwest. The Midwest is becoming like a real battle over whether progressives or the establishment, whether the empire can strike back properly. Right. But that battle is also moving south. We're also seeing a new look at the south as a place where Democrats ought not to have ceded their competitive advantages that they used to have. There was a time when you could, like clockwork, expect every Democratic presidential candidate to come from the South. Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, and, you know, Lyndon Johnson. And there was a reason for that, because There was an understanding as far back as 1965. I was reading an old SNCC report the other day. These are the kind of things I do for fun, where they were talking about the fact that in these elections in the 1960s, the black vote in the south was dispositive for the Democratic candidates, that Lyndon Johnson's victories were made, were made possible, and as were John F. Kennedy's, by Southern blacks. Because there are so many blacks in the South. The majority of black people live in the south, and they live in such concentrations and they vote in such concentrations that they can be a swing electorate, even if they're not the majority electorate, hardly the majority electorate. Black folks are only 11% of the country. But the Southern black vote is so concentrated, it can actually be dispositive in who wins elections. At least back in the day when Democrats used to play in the South, Barack Obama won Florida twice. Not once, but twice. He won North Carolina one one out of two times. And the second time, he only lost it. He won it by, I think 14,000, lost it by 90,000 or the other way around, but it was 90,000, 14,000, very narrow. In North Carolina, Jimmy Carter won his home state. And other Southern states, like Democrats used to, like, routinely win Southern states. And then there came a point after Barack Obama when Democrats just stopped playing in the south at all. They just thought they just gave up. They used to have Arkansas, that's where Bill Clinton came from, and they could just win Arkansas. They used to have a West Virginia United states senator, Rockefeller, J.D. rockefeller. And then they just sort of decided they can't win there. And they just stopped playing there and just went to the Northeast and the Sun Belt and said, that's where we're going to win. But there is a move back to the South. There are competitive races in the south that are happening right now, I can tell you. I just saw a poll yesterday, and I don't know how much I believe it, but that showed that James Talarico is ahead by five points over Ken Paxton in Texas. Now, Texas is big, very difficult, very difficult. So I don't know if that lasts, but at the moment, he seems to be at least polling ahead. And so now there's a move. There was just a move, a successful move inside of the Democratic National Committee to say that the south is so important. There's a competitive Senate race in Mississippi which we should be paying attention to. We know our friend Charles Booker is running in Kentucky for the United States senate for Mitch McConnell's Senate seat. Florida has a pretty important governor's race. David Jolly is running in that. And it's possible. You know, we never know. He could potentially win. And you've got very important congressional races that could decide who controls the House of Representatives. The south is important. The south matters, Obviously, Jon Ossoff getting reelected in Georgia matters. Georgia has not one, but two Democratic senators. So the south is all of a sudden important again. The question is, is it important enough to invest money in for the party? Is it important enough to invest money and time in for the party? And should not Democratic candidates for president have to start in the south rather than starting in very white states like Iowa and New Hampshire? Well, they're going to have to, because now, unlike in all of these elections past, South Carolina is going to now be locked in as the very first state that Democratic candidates for the. For the presidency have to compete in. Jamie Harrison, who was the former DNC chair who ran for the United States Senate against the late Lindsey Graham, he said this. He tweeted. He was very excited about it. He said, what a moment. South Carolina will remain first in the nation, and we will once again kick off the Democratic presidential nomination process. I'm so excited to about the incredible diversity of voices in the early window. South Carolina, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Michigan, and Virginia. Together, these states better reflect the strength, diversity, and future of our party and our country. Now, let's get to work winning elections. And joining me now is the aforementioned Jamie Harrison. He is the former DNC chair, as I mentioned, and the host of At Our Table, the At Our Table podcast, which is available on YouTube and everywhere you get your podcasts. And I do not. I do believe she's here. Yes. Alongside Jamie is our dear friend Latasha Brown, co founder of the Black. Black Voters Matter Fund and the Black Voters Matter Capacity Building Institute. And the person we come to to talk about black power and the South. And she does all of these amazing things for Southern black girls. And so we want to talk about all of these things. Jamie, I want to start with you, the naysayers to your state. Well, actually, before I get to that, do you, do you have, what do you have to say about the, the passing of Lindsey Graham? Let me, let me start there. Let's start on that. Lindsey Graham has passed. What does that mean for South Carolina? What's the big picture on his passing for you?

[Jamie Harrison]

Well, you know, you know, there have been two. It's like the tale of Two cities, Jory. There's a tale of two Lindsey Grahams. You Know, when I was a staffer in Jim Clyman's office, I used to work with Graham's office quite often on trying to get things and resources back to South Carolina and even into, you know, to our HBCUs in Orangeburg and in Columbia. You know, he worked with Clyburn on the Gullah Geechee Heritage Quarter and create the creation of that. And so that was a Lindsey Graham that you definitely disagreed with on a lot of things, but you could work with. And then John McCain died. Donald Trump was elevated, and that we got a different Lindsey Graham. We got a Lindsey Graham who was just obsessed with power and would do anything and even sell his values and his morals and just to be. To touch the. The garb of. Of Trump. And that's a Lindsey Graham that I didn't recognize. And so, you know, but he changed what his legacy is as a result of that. And so, you know, listen, any time anybody passes away, I. I feel for their family and their friends and. And I send my condolences. But Lindsay. Lindsay's legacy is not what it. What it could have been. You know, a champion of bipartisanship and all that. His latter years is the reason why I ran against him. It's just sad to see. But you. You see it more and more these days. Joy, that a lot of people are selling their values and their morals just for power.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. Okay. Well, I wanted to let you have a chance to say that I. I had a. I've had a lot to say about Lindsay. I'm gonna leave it there, and I won't. I won't you repeat some of the things that I've had to say. But let's talk about the naysayers to South Carolina going first, because now that is locked in that South Carolina will be the first primary in the nation, putting aside New Hampshire and Iowa. And this is what Jonathan Martin wrote for Politico. He said the panel's decision to lift South Carolina to first in the nation's status was done expressly with the state's black voters in mind, the party wanted to reward their most loyal constituency and those voters who in the modern era have invariably determined its nominees. Yet in making South Carolina first overall, rather than keeping the state in its previous role as the first in the south, the party risks diluting the influence of Southern black voters. The state traded the prospect of nominating power for attention and money. It will get a wealth of candidate visits, and its state party will reap a financial windfall. But South Carolina will now effectively become what Iowa was For the preceding half century, the contest were also rans are called rather than the one that vaulted Democrats to the nomination or at least narrowed the race in the final two. This could have profound implications for who the party nominates in 2028. The reason why Representative Clyburn delighted, at least until this week in his state, coming third or even fourth, was because it meant they played a decisive role. With the field narrowed by the time it got to South Carolina, Clyburn and the state's black voters all but choose the nominees, as they memorably did in 2020 with Joe Biden. What do you make of his criticism?

[Jamie Harrison]

Well, you know, I push back on Jonathan Martin on that, Joy. You know, you know, for too long, black voters have often been asked to ratify the choices after the field has already been shaped. And, you know, beginning here in South Carolina now means that black voters help shape the conversation from the very beginning. There's a big difference between helping write the agenda and simply reacting to it. And so both of those positions are positions of power and influence, but they're just different. And I think, you know, in. In, you know, this whole notion that black voters are now diminishing their power, does that mean white voters have diminished their power in all those years that the, you know, candidates went to Iowa and New Hampshire? I mean, just in 2019, presidential candidates went to Iowa 631 times, Joy. All 20 candidates, 631 times. You know how many times they came to South Carolina? Two hundred and nine. And that's the difference. That's part of the difference.

[Joy Reid]

So. And Latasha, I am struck by the fact that Iowa and New Hampshire were so important that they passed laws to be first and were touted by the media that I worked in the entirety of my career as being critical and important until suddenly South Carolina's first. And now the media's like, nah, nah, being first, it sucks. The first means you don't got no power. Like, it's weird. Like, when we get it, all of a sudden it's like, yeah, yeah, that's not that great.

[Latasha Brown]

And then on top of that, not only if they're saying, oh, it's not that great. Oh, that's gonna hurt black voters.

[Joy Reid]

Yes. Yeah, it's bad for you.

[Latasha Brown]

That's gonna help. That's gonna be bad for black voters in the South. Like, it's. It's. There's a couple of things that I want to start with even before I talk about just the primary starting there, you know, and I think people need to know how significant it is, because when you think we have closed primaries in the South, South Carolina is a state that's a closed primary. What that means is that when you look on the democratic party side, 60% of the electorate that will decide on who will be the nominee for the state of South Carolina are black voters. So we have a significant impact on shaping what the political field is. But, but one thing I want to say, when black people do better, everybody does better.

[Daniel Levy]

Yes.

[Latasha Brown]

And so the problem with this whole notion around black people is, is in some way, in some artificial world, racism has created this frame, like this paradigm that in some way that voting for black issues is there some box called the black people that if we help actually strengthen the social safety net and that's just going to be the black people to benefit from that. The truth of the matter is I really believe that South Carolina is key and critical because what it represents, not just in terms of black voters and minority voters, but also we're in an era right now that where you're looking at rural communities that ultimately part of what we've seen this backlash in the Midwest and in the south, that you've got millions of people who feel like their issues are not actually on the table, that there's only like when we're talking about larger cities and that that urban kind of center space that that becomes the driving force of shaping. Yet we know that where even the Republican Party has been growing, right even from the Tea Party on down has been really situated around how we suburban. The growth in suburban areas, actually the divestment in rural areas. And so I think that South Carolina 1 is a great microcosm that the voters of South Carolina are not only pragmatic, but I think that there is a way in terms of when black people support social safety net that helps all of Americans. Given that we actually have a projection that we're looking at millions of people who have been cut off snap that we're looking at economic security at as high as rate. We've got to. We also have to stop this frame as if it's black voters or black people have always just worked for an agenda for themselves. Where they did that at that has never been the case that ultimately. So I'm saying that to say that this is not just a win for black people. This is a win for working class people all across this nation. This is a win for rural America all across this nation. This is a win for when we're seeing the diversity where there's growth. Because what we often don't talk about is that the south is the fastest growing region in the country. What we often don't talk about is that when you're looking at diversity, that you're seeing an increase in the diversity of the makeup of the Democratic makeup in the South. The south is younger, it is more diverse. And so people are there. And so that the growth. When we're looking at the future of growth in America, I really believe that the south in many ways is like the litmus test of how we're going to attach that. So we have to see this beyond this space. And I'm trying to put us in a box around. Oh, yeah, this is about black voters. You listen, if you are struggling right now with some gas, you better want some black voters to show up. If you are struggling with anything right now, right now, your best saving grace is not the billionaires that are having tea parties on your dime. It is black voters that really can understand, have a long track record and a history of supporting the very things that actually help working class people in this nation.

[Joy Reid]

And to that very point, I mean, it was South Carolina freedmen during Reconstruction who gave the country free K through 12 education.

[Jamie Harrison]

There you go, Joy.

[Joy Reid]

That is actually South Carolina's gift not just to black children who were of the formerly enslaved, but of white children, the vast majority of whom did not go to school either. It was because of black voters, literally after the Civil War, that we all have free K through 12 education. So you're right. I think what's fascinating too, Jamie, is that the idea, people are saying that it is giving you less. Less power to be the state that every candidate has to pander to first. Right. But to me, I think of it the other way. If you have to craft a message that will appeal not just to black Southern voters, voters near the Research Triangle, which is a neighboring North Carolina, also a lot of Latino voters are in the Carolinas, in South Carolina as well, but also the kind of white voters who are in the South. If you are still a Democrat in the south, you. You're a liberal, you're progressive, you are a progressive.

[Lindsey Graham]

Right?

[Joy Reid]

And so these are some of the most. These are persistently progressive white voters who are still willing to call themselves Democrats in a place where it is now overwhelmingly cultural for white people to be Republicans. So I feel like this is actually the perfect place for Democrats to relearn how to run an election in the south and how to run an election that can win outside of the New York suburbs.

[Jamie Harrison]

That's exactly right, Joy. And I Think appeal to working class people. Again, because at the core that. That 60, 50 to 55 to 60% of black folks in South Carolina, those are working people. You know, there are a few academics and professors and teachers all, but the vast majority are working folks, folks who get, you know, they have to shower a few times in the day because they. They off working. And many times they got two or three jobs just trying to keep ends meet. And so now you are talking to those individuals and, and really crafting what your message is and appealing. And I can tell you and Latasha hit the nail on the head. When you can, when you can connect with those folks, you can connect with anybody, any working demographic in this country. Black, white, Latino, Asian Americans, with any demographic. And that's why this is so appealing. This is not just. This is the heart and the soul of what makes America America. These are those people that you are talking to. And it will have ripple effects. Not only, you know, many of us, you know, many black folks have relatives. Their aunties, their grandmas, their aunts, their uncles and cousins are all in South Carolina. Many of them spend some of their summers here, or they used to spend their summers here.

[Latasha Brown]

And.

[Jamie Harrison]

And so that connection is a ripple effect. And that's something that I. I give President Biden credit for. I remember when we first made this decision in 2024, and we were going over the. The various states that applied to be in the early window, and the staffer went over South Carolina and she did it in a dismissive tone, and the president hadn't said anything on the whole call, and then she went to the next state, and he said, let's go back to South Carolina. He said, let me tell y' all something about. Let me tell you something about South Carolina. I didn't say y'.

[Joy Reid]

All.

[Jamie Harrison]

He said, let me tell you something about South Carolina. He said, I have gone all across this country. I've talked to black voters all across this country. There are a lot of folks, a lot of people who have connections to South Carolina in that state. Black people have more power than what's inside the borders of that state. So let. Let's get that straight about South Carolina. And then we proceeded on. And he didn't say a whole lot more, but he proceeded on. And that's because he understood. He understood the power of some of the. The folks here. When, Bo. When. When. When Beau Biden passed away, and that was shortly after the. The massacre, the Charleston massacre. And a lot of people never reported this that following week. Everybody talks about Barack Obama going down to Mother Emmanuel and Satan and singing Amazing Grace, but prior to that, with no TV cameras, anything, you know who went to to worship with the parishioners there at Mother Manual, it was Joe Biden, because he wanted, he was going through pain of himself, but he wanted to be with other folks and he provided them comfort. But he said that they provided him comfort. And that's the special part about black folks in this country. They understand the joys of life, but they also understand the hardships of life. And that is that experience that is going to be felt by all of these candidates who decide to run in 2028.

[Joy Reid]

Well, let me ask. There's. There's another elephant in the room. And I'm going to start with you first, Latasha, and then back to you, Jamie, because the other perception here is that there's one person that's really powerful in South Carolina, that's Jamie's former boss, Jim Clyburn, and that he wields so much power that the, the real shift here in making South Carolina first is to empower him and the centrists in the state to choose the candidate and to sort of crowd out progressive voices. There are a lot of progressives who are not happy about South Carolina being first because they perceive it as, you know, the Bernie Crusher, which it was because he didn't have a black strategy. But that's a whole nother conversation. But what do you make of the question of whether or not progressives have a voice in specifically South Carolina, but in these southern races, you're on the ground.

[Latasha Brown]

So a couple of things. One, and I think the data shows this, there's nobody more progressive than black folks, right. Particularly on social issues. So consistently, no matter whether we live in New York, whether we live in Detroit, whether we live in Alabama, ultimately, when you look at bread and butter issues, black folks, folks are more progressive than our white counterparts. So that point blank period. So let's get that out the way. The second thing I think is really important for us to understand is we don't need to over romanticize that black people are so caught up in the Democratic Party that we show up. We understand this isn't about party position or the party winning. This is about power. Black folk in the south, we're very clear about power, that many of us have spent as much time fighting and challenging those in the Democratic Party as we now are in this new era of the Republican willingness. I don't even call it Republican, the racist party right now. So you don't even give me a choice to go over there because you're just so damn racist. But my point is. My point is we're black folk in the South. Even a Trump ain't new to us. We've been dealing with Trumps. Trump is another piece around us in terms of how to deal with fascism, how to organize in extraordinary circumstances, but also to be pragmatic about your power. This is not about a popularity contest. I don't care who you like or you don't like. You better like wanting, understanding that we have to. We have to stop this fascist rise, this concentration of power by people who have actually undermined our lives. That's what this is about. This isn't about what your attitude was about. Bided all them other folks. I don't really care. Like, ultimately, right now, we have to see we are at war, that we are seeing cuts that we are going to out. We're seeing foot food off our tables where we're seeing actually cuts in all, not only social programs, but we're seeing cuts and contracts, cuts in jobs, opportunities being shut out for black folks. We have to show up where this has to be. One, a resistance vote. Secondly, we have to show up where we are actually organizing this around our power. And then. Let me go back to the Clyburn piece. Part of what you raised with Clyburn, like, nobody can take away the fact that he has, through his seniority, through his political sophistication, he has amassed a tremendous amount of power on the Hill. There's no question. And he actually has a base of people in South Carolina. That is no question. But what I will say is that the media, particularly mainstream media, likes to create these. These savior characters for black folk. As if black folk ain't smart enough to be able to make their own choices, their decisions. That. Do you think that the whole state of Carolina that. That James Clyburn just got it one day? Is it. I think blacks this particular way. I mean, really, y', all really. That's not what happened. Like, where he is, there's an alignment. He absolutely has political influence. But the truth of the matter, the people of South Carolina, even with. Let me say the funny story is when we were going and we were working in the space, we weren't supported. We actually came out Black Voters Matter, came out with a letter actually against Biden. We didn't want Biden to get the nomination. Right. And many of us were supporting other folks. What was interesting is when we would talk to the black folk and the black folks In South Carolina, we talked to were very pragmatic. We need this white man to be this white man. We get what y' all saying.

[Joy Reid]

And they were right.

[Latasha Brown]

And they were right. And I'm saying that to say. And then you know what we did? We fell in line. All right? The people said so sometimes we get. We're so. Because we got Internet now and we got a couple of lights that we get on these social media platforms now all of a sudden we're political experts and pundits and we believe that cynicism is going to actually help move or it's going to get us some more lights. But cynicism is not a strategy right now. This is about pure damn power. Point blank period. And you've got three jobs. Your first job is you have to block this, concentrate this attempt to consolidate power by those who seek to undermine, hurt and harm us. Secondly, you actually got to build something different. We do have to start creating. I hope that even in South Carolina that we see this as an opportunity to actually make some major changes in the state that the infrastructure. This isn't just about the presidential nomination. This also be about infrastructure. And the third thing is y' all better believe in your own power. This isn't about. And when you are at war, you use every tool available to you. If you ain't got nothing but a hammer, you. You better fight like hell with that hammer. So the bottom line is voting is one significant tool. South Carolina sets the tone. It will set the momentum. It will send a message to black people and all people, working class people across this nation around. This is the route we're going. I think there's no better state that the trifecta of what I think is really important this next election cycle. One I think really around how we're going to deal with issues from race to making sure that those communities that have been targeted are not left behind too. I think rural communities, someone who can actually speak to rural development and what we need to do from rural suburban into the totality of the state, not leaving one part out of it. I think it's going to be important. And I think the third thing is important is where the bag at. How are we going to create an opportunities, expanded economic opportunities for all of us in this nation, not just a few at the top.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, they better. The Democratic Party better not Jamie be out there hiring those same consultants from the Northeast who lose and lose and lose and lose. I'm thinking about Mandela, Barnes. I'm thinking about that sister North Carolina, you know I'm Jerry Beasley. Yeah, Cherry Beasley. You know, I'm thinking about all of these winnable races that have been lost. Val Demings, because the same consultants keep failing at running these races. But I'm a last question to you, because, you know, the other elephant in the room is I know you're not a huge fan of dsa. I've seen your, I've seen your tweets. You laugh, but I've seen them. Do, do, do you view this, which is a lot, what a lot of progressives fear as South Carolina being able to effectively smother progressives to come in because the state is, is not, know, sort of DSA centered, is that one of the reasons that so many folks like yourself are happy about South Carolina being first?

[Jamie Harrison]

No. No, Joy. I mean, anybody knows me, I, I think I, I represent sort of the pragmatism that you got in South Carolina. This, this is a big tent party. You know, Democrats are a coalition. And in a coalition or in a family, you argue, and you're going to have some of your family members who feel a certain way about this, and then you got some who feel a certain way about that. I don't have any problems with folks from dsa. What I have problems with more of is that we got one party right now that is trying to fight back against fascism. And if we tear that party apart at this point, we're going to lose because there's no other party or no other entity that is strong enough to hold that back. That's my perspective right now. Now, people have different agreements or they may disagree with that, but that's my perception. And so I think it's good for us to have a whole range of people with a whole range of where they are on various issues. The ultimate thing that I want to see is progress. Now, sometimes that progress may be just an inch, sometimes it's a whole football field. But nonetheless, you know, I, I was raised by my grandparents. You got a dime? You boy, you better appreciate that dime they got. Now, that doesn't mean that you don't try to fight to get a dollar or $10 or $100 later. But you appreciate the, the dime that you have, because that's a dime you didn't have yesterday. Right? That's the way that I look at the world again. Different people, different approaches. So what we are going to do here in South Carolina is welcome, everybody. We need to have the discussion. Ro Khanna has been down here and, you know, probably one of the most progressive Folks that have been running for.

[Joy Reid]

For

[Jamie Harrison]

the pre.

[Joy Reid]

He's running for president. Yeah, the pre.

[Jamie Harrison]

Launch for the. The presidents. But RO almost should have an apartment down here. He's here all the time. But, you know, I've been connecting ro. Jim Clyburn has been introducing him, putting them on campuses of HBCUs. I know Clyburn has invited AOC to come down here. I mean, what we want is for folks to come in and have a whole discussion on the range of ideas about moving our country forward. Now, again, if you are trying to destroy the party, then you and I will have. We all have issues, because I just don't think that's the right way to go. But that doesn't mean.

[Joy Reid]

I would argue that. I mean, not to interrupt you, but I think that this is the conversation I think we need to have, because I don't know if the idea is to destroy the party, but really rather to maybe tear down some of the systems that make the party ineffective. And so I think there are people who see a party that has potential, but that is whole holding back because of special interests that are saying, do less. Just have a little. You just only keep the dime. You don't need the dollar.

[Jamie Harrison]

Yeah.

[Joy Reid]

But a lot of people right now, people desperately need the whole dollar.

[Jamie Harrison]

Enjoy. I don't disagree with that. I got a book coming out next year in the spring that talks about tearing down some of the systems within the party because of what I saw as DNC chair. But again, you know, that's the debate and discussion that we have to have, but with the hopes that, you know, one of the things that Congressman Clyburn used to say to me as a young staff, he said that, you know, sometimes in life and in our party and in politics in general, that people may take different. Different paths, but hopefully the destination is the same. Hopefully, we are all trying to get to the same place. We may get at it a little different way, but hopefully that's what we're trying to do. And that's ultimately where I am. I know that my perspective is not the perspective of everybody.

[Joy Reid]

Right.

[Jamie Harrison]

I was shaped by the way that I grew up, by the. The folks who raised me. Right. And the experiences that I had, which are very different. Your experience, Joy, is different than mine, and. And that's probably different than Latasha's. But in the end of the day, what we want is we want to see black folks to flourish in this country. We may come at it in different ways, but ultimately what we want to see is for our Folks, our people to flourish. And. And let. Let's have that discussion. Let's try to figure out which way we go. That might mean some compromise every now and then. I love my wife more than life itself, but that doesn't mean we agree on every single thing. Right. And the. And their approach is a little different, but ultimately, it is for us to raise our kids right, for them to flourish and to have all of the joys that they. That they should have in our family and in this country. And so that's. That's the push and pull that we got to have in politics as well.

[Joy Reid]

Indeed. I'm gonna give you the last word on this, Latasha, because I'm now, you know, I'm greedy. I'm like, wait a minute. If they're gonna make South Carolina first, we need to have a whole conversation about the south being first, about the south getting attention, the south getting financial attention, the south getting physical attention from the party and not from the same old people. But do you see a different sort of. Of attitude emerging about the prospects of the south returning to its role of being first in line in changing the country?

[Latasha Brown]

Oh, absolutely, for a number of reasons. You know, I want to. I want to lift up my brother Jamie, because, Jamie, I think, you know, part of this is your leadership and the way that you have connected with community. So I so love you, brothers. I want to say that. Right. I also will make the distinction that while we have support. Supported that we're going to have to get to the point that we're okay with being honest around. We fundamentally have problems with even the whole party structure in this country. That is the truth. What has been bipartisan racism ain't. Ain't just been over there in the Republican Party now, like, we gonna listen,

[Jamie Harrison]

you know, Amen to that. Amen to that.

[Latasha Brown]

And I know you're saying. And you know that. Right?

[Jamie Harrison]

Amen to that.

[Latasha Brown]

Because I do think that people are going to demand for us to actually be more rooted and being honest or not, not to support these structures at the expense of losing people. And oftentimes what we see is that these institutions to hold its own power will not speak to the people. It will speak to preserving itself. But people can already see you ain't got no clothes on. And so I think that part. I'm saying that to say, because I think in this moment, there is an opening. Grandmother used to say, what the devil meant for harm, God would use for your good. This is a opening for us to do a reset there. There is an emerging set of leaders on the administrative side. Even on the back, I'm real clear of folks from like Leah Daughtry and Jamie's leadership and. And Mignon more involved. Y' all don't understand how black people within these institutions are actually fighting to make stuff. So when we just throw the party out, you're literally throwing out kind of leadership of people who are fighting every single day for black folks. So that's fine. Right? The second piece, though, it is important for us to have a critical analysis of anybody that's holding power for black folk. I don't care what they call themselves. With Green Party, Blue Party, I don't give a damn that ultimately we have to get to the point around just accepting that we've got to shape the agenda of what is next in the party. That's what makes me so excited about this idea of the. Of the president primary happening in South Carolina. Because black people, we can actually help shape the conversation and make that conversation different. Our fight is no longer a fight about the. Just the. The. The whether the parties have power. Right? We have a Supreme Court that says it's okay for partisanship, it's okay to draw a district based on protecting a party. Right? But it's the same with the party. Political parties, no way in the Constitution, but the same Supreme Court Court says that black folks somehow shaping a district just to make it competitive for black people to have representation, something is wrong. So I'm saying that because I think it's really important that we also. Everything around us can't shift and that we don't shift. But sometimes what we think in our shift is we're gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater. No, I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water because I need the baby.

[Joy Reid]

Right?

[Latasha Brown]

But what I need to do is I have to see myself accountable for the care and the shaping of however I want to raise that baby. If that's the case. If people are really serious, I'm often baffled by folks when they're saying, oh, we'll need both parties, just xyz. And they did not nothing to create a third option. If you believe that, fine, but where's your option? Because I actually got receipts. I can show that when the party didn't do right locally, we created a third option for that. But there's also a reality in which we're living in right now that is based on somebody's gonna win. And so you gotta support that. And so I say that because I think that there's a level of pragmatism and that sophistication and opportunity for us to really make a change ultimately, particularly on the state level and the local level, like we can actually put candidates in office that reflect the things that we believe in. And the south should be at play because right now the south running the country. Yeah, it was accident. I do want to remind people it wasn't by accident that Ronald Reagan, Mr. California, Hollywood did not kick off his campaign in San Bernardino Valley.

[Joy Reid]

That's right.

[Latasha Brown]

He kicked off his campaign. Where? Mississippi. Where the three men that got killed.

[Joy Reid]

That's right.

[Latasha Brown]

Mississippi burning Donald Trump. Do you know where that MAGA got kicked off? It didn't get kicked off if he was Mr. New Yorker himself. Mr. Apprentice. It was Mobile, Alabama. Alabama. I want folks to understand that that's a dog whistle. They understand that their seat of power is in the South.

[Chelsea Fuller]

Yeah.

[Latasha Brown]

We have to understand and the Democratic Party has to understand that it's people power. You don't just see territory and allow your opponent to get stronger and stronger and stronger and then they run and stuff. That is not just because we're not challenging the seniority in the south. The people who are senators and have seniority in the south and much greater than other places. So what you're seeing is you're Southern, seeing Southern senators over the top that are leading some of the most important committees. Right. Even if they not. We ain't seen them in six months. Right now

[Joy Reid]

being. Yeah, oh yeah. You don't. You know Michael Jackson said you're a

[Jamie Harrison]

vegetable

[Joy Reid]

for no reason. I'm singing that but gone.

[Latasha Brown]

But what, but, but what that says though, seriously, what that does say, the fact that we ain't seen nothing but an AI picture of this man, whether he, whether he alive or dead or whatever. What that does say is they understand that that Custard is on his last stand. The fact that they are, that this is a new moment. This is a new south that is rising. They can do all of that stuff that they want to. We ain't going back. It's just not going to happen. And so why don't we take this time to organize ourselves to maximize the power. We should be supporting everybody that's listening out here. We should be supporting frontline groups in South Carolina, black led progressive groups, groups and groups that are doing work in the state so that there's an infrastructure so that it's not just about in 2028. We're just trying to figure out what the consultants say on the ground but that we Got it. So on lock that ultimately, what comes out of South Carolina will be reflective to working class America.

[Joy Reid]

Brilliant. Brilliant. And, you know, one thing I will add to that is that you're absolutely right about the Mobile, Alabama, part. But remember, Donald Trump sent his son Don Jr. To Philadelphia, Mississippi, to that same county fair. He said he reproduced the Ronald Reagan appearance. He had his son do it. They understand. And the reason I think that it's significant, and I'm so glad that you laid that out, Latasha, is they understood from the moment that reconstruction fell that reestablishing the planter class system in the south was the way to consolidate power in each of those states. They have reproduced the plantation system structure in the governments in the South. They've made it very difficult to dislodge power there. And they've made power very this shape. Right. There's a couple rich people at the top and everybody else at the bottom like the old plantation system. It's the perfect place if you want to do a little autocracy in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida is the perfect place to build a little autocracy. And it is no coincidence that the speakers from Louisiana, that all the committee chairs are from the south, that Mitch McConnell's the most powerful senator from Kentucky. You could go on and on and on. They have built a power base in the South. If you're going to break it, you got to be there. And Democrats have said, you know what, we're fine. We'll take the Northeast and Vermont. Like that is not enough to re. And California, California is amazing. We love California. Not enough to rebuild power in the whole country. You've got to take the South. They got to take it back. They have no choice or whatever. I'm excited about this. I am a big booster of politics in the sound. I'm very excited to be able to pay attention to Florida again without being sad.

[Jamie Harrison]

Yes.

[Joy Reid]

We want all of it back. Latasha Brown, Jamie Harrison, you guys are so smart. Thank you all so much for taking time. We went over. That's how much we love you guys. We went way over.

[Jamie Harrison]

It was fun.

[Joy Reid]

I was like, we just don't let him keep going. We appreciate y'.

All.

Thank you. Thank you so much. And if you guys have not had enough of this, Jamie's gonna come back tomorrow. Thank you both. Please, by the way, subscribe to Jamie's podcast. It's called At Our Table. You can get it right on YouTube. We'll put the link below. Please support Black Voters Matter Fund. They do such incredible work Just amazing work. Work. But also tomorrow at noon on Substack, I'm gonna have Jamie back and we're going to talk more because I want to talk about the internal story about how this shift happened. How did a lot of it is the color girls, remember the color girls who were. Jesse Jackson, who is from South Carolina, his former presidential team were some of the primary movers in getting South Carolina to be first. There's a whole, whole backstory. If you want that backstory, go ahead and subscribe over at Substack Premium subscribers. We're going to do a premium only, really insider tea with Jamie Harrison tomorrow. And we're. I'm very excited about that. All right, y'. All. What, What, what, what, what, what, what? Okay, we don't have time to do our thing we were going to do in our, in our D block, so I'm just going to mention it. I won't even go into it. But today, Anthony Fauci was dragged before the United States Senate to testify about. I don't even know what the accusation is, Republicans. And this is before you start acting as if Rand Paul, also of Kentucky, is some sort of hero, because he was right. You know, he stood on the right side of the Epstein files and one or two other issues. No, no, no. Know that they're all going to play ball for Trump because today they invented a completely wasteful hearing at which Anthony Fauci was dragged before the United States Senate to be screamed at by Republican senators and blamed for the pandemic. So now we've peeped their strategy. They're like the villains in Scooby Doo. They can't win on the economy. The war in Iran is a disaster. Everybody despises Israel except for a handful of Democrats in New York City and David Patterson who thinks that being against Bibi Netanyahu and the genocide makes you into an old Southern segregationist. Whatever reason, none of their issues are working. The economy is crap. People can't afford anything. Gas prices are high. Unemployment rate not going down in the way that it needs to. Even Wall street is starting to teeter because the AI bubble is about to drive us into probably a recession next year. It's all bad. They have nothing to run on. Republicans have done absolutely nothing. Zero, zip, zero, nothing for the American people. And so they've decided. And by the way, they've also leaked a study. Apparently internally, they have determined that calling Democrats socialist is no longer working, that the scare tacking of saying Democrats are socialists is falling flat. So that's why they're now moving to communists. They're now calling Democrats communists because calling them socialists is no longer working. The base is not growing. Their base is shrinking. Alex Jones today called for Donald Trump's impeachment because he got led around by the nose by Bibi Netanyahu into a war in Iran. It's all falling apart. A lot of MAGA are ex MAGA now because they do not like the idea of the President of the United States essentially being the House pet of the Israeli Prime Minister. They don't appreciate that. So it's all going wrong. So their new gambit is to drag Anthony Fauci back out of the closet, drag him before the Senate, and accuse him of. Of being responsible for the pandemic. I won't even bother to play it. One of the things that was so interesting was Bernie Moreno, who is the United States senator from Ohio, dropped an F bomb, screaming at Anthony Fauci in a way that showed that he's more angry at Anthony Fauci for the lockdowns during COVID than he is at the representative who assaulted Moreno's own daughter. I've never heard Senator Moreno scream about the MAGA congressman who allegedly put a gun to his own daughter's head and poured scalding hot water on her. I've never heard Anthony Moreno get mad about that. I've never heard him say anything about that. But let me just. I'll play this. This is the only thing I'm gonna play. Jason, you can play D2. This is Bernie Moran. I apologize for the F bomb. I didn't have time to mute it.

[Jamie Harrison]

Story broke.

[Daniel Levy]

I said to myself, I cannot stand

[Jamie Harrison]

Eileen on the side and watch this happen. It was about six years ago today

[Daniel Levy]

that I decided I'm going to give

[Jamie Harrison]

up my businesses, sell them all, run for office, run for the United States Senate. Here I am sitting in front of you six years later, saying, who the

[Daniel Levy]

fuck do you think you were for doing that?

[Joy Reid]

And that was more passion than I've seen of him, talking about issues of, I don't know, the abuse of women, including his own child. So this was the theater. You had Rand Paul threatening to throw Fauci in jail because Fauci was very smart. Fauci came out and he gave an opening statement, and then he proceeded to plead the fifth to everything he said. I plead the fifth to what time it is. I plead the fifth to what I'm wearing. I plead the fifth to what color my eyes are. I plead the fifth to what day it is. I plead the Fifth to everything. And they thought that they were like, owning him by getting him to repeat, I plead the fifth. I plead the fifth. I plead the fifth.

[Daniel Levy]

But, oh, no, no.

[Joy Reid]

Fauci was like, y' all not going to walk me into this brier patch. You think you're going to bring me out here? Blame me for the pandemic. If you want to know who killed a million people with COVID go to the White House, knock on the door, and ask for Donald Trump if he's awake. Because Donald Trump is the one who did not listen to science, didn't listen to guidance, told his people effectively it was a flu that would go away, admitted that he knew it was airborne in an interview with Bob Woodward, but then didn't tell us. So people are walking around spraying Lysol on their doorknobs and washing their. Their. Their groceries before using them and doing all of these things when in fact, that thing was in the air. Donald Trump told you to inject bleach into yourself to get rid of it. He said to do all sorts of insane things rather than just telling people to get the vaccine. He had his own government fund helping to create the vaccine and then made it sound like the vaccine wasn't safe while he took it. And all of the Republicans, the senior, most Republicans, all took it, but then made us scared to take it. Donald Trump behaved in the most irresponsible way of any president ever, and he lost that election. Let's just be clear, in 2020, because of his mishandling of the pandemic, that wasn't Fauci's fault. Fauci is the man who actually guided us through the AIDS pandemic. When a previous Republican president, Ronald Reagan, refused to even use the word AIDS or the word HIV and was willing to let every single HIV positive person and die because most of them were gay. And so we have two consecutive. Two not consecutive, but two Republican presidents who didn't know how to handle a damn pandemic caused mass death. Donald Trump. The amount of death Donald Trump presided over should have made him unelectable forever. But Americans are too stupid to remember. Not all Americans, but at least his supporters are too damn stupid to remember who killed their family members? Who killed your grandmother? Who killed your auntie?

[Daniel Levy]

Who killed.

[Joy Reid]

Who killed your relatives? It was Trump. People were dying alone with only an iPad for company. No one could get near them. In the hospital. Nurses were dying. Nurses were refusing to take the shot. Everyone was so panicked and so paranoid. People didn't know whether to keep their Businesses open, keep them closed. They didn't know whether kids were safe going to school because they're young, and maybe they wouldn't get it. People were fighting over whether kids should wear masks. This was an insane nightmare that destroyed lives. There are young people today who still cannot recover mentally and emotionally from the trauma of being separated from their school friends and having a normal life. There are college students who had to graduate at home and never got the chance to experience graduation or prom. This destroyed lives. And you sons of bitches in the Republican Party are so bereft of anything to run for reelection on. You're so bereft of a plan to fix the economy that you broke. You can say a lot about Joe Biden, but he handed y' all an economy that was cooking. He handed you a recovering economy that battled back from COVID and all of a sudden, Donald Trump comes in and wrecks it. Joe Biden handed you a country that had peace with Iran. He destroyed that by deciding to go to war, forward to run, because Bibi Netanyahu told him to.

[Jamie Harrison]

I was about to say he had a million lives lost in his first term. Now he's adding up with more lives

[Joy Reid]

lost around the world and lying about it. We don't even know how many people have died in Iran. Donald Trump is killing your sons after stripping the history of anybody black, anybody that's a woman or anybody gay from the military, making it clear that he only wants to kill young white men. And every single young white man that signs up for the military, because that's the only people they want, that man is going to send you to Iran. This is going to escalate. There will be probably a ground invasion, and it's your sons he's trying to suck into the maw. He's going to kill your sons and then not tell you how they died. Donald Trump is presiding over what feels like a return of lynching, or at least lynching culture, or at least the lynching vibe. All across the south, white nationalists are freely marching through American cities unmolested. ICE is banging through people's doors, stealing and snatching people in the night. You've got ICE impersonators pulling women over and assaulting them sexually on the streets. You've got ICE busting through doors, dragging people into vans. We are behaving like Nazi Germany in the 30s, while Bibi Netanyahu says it's actually Nazi Germany to be against his genocide and arrogantly marching into our capital with his war criminal ass, something he cannot do in London, cannot do in Berlin, but can certainly do it here because we are a weak country with a weak mentally declining president that the whole world is laughing at every time he falls asleep. I promise you, it's on TV all over the world. People are laughing at the United States. We're a joke. And now we're trying to cobble together a new empire with our best partner being Israel. And that's going to be the new hegemon. US and Israel running all of right wing South America. Brazil is so afraid of Donald Trump stealing their elections, they won't even let two of our people from the State Department in. You can't even have visas to go there. Pretty soon we're going to be the pariah. No one wants to even visit their countries. There is the more people leaving the United States and immigrating here. For the first time in history, we have net ex migration. People are leaving not just because they're afraid that they're going to be deported, but because they don't want to be here. College students in droves are going to school in China, Japan. They're getting the hell out of here. They're going to Europe. They people moving to Africa, moving to Spain, moving to Portugal. People want to be anywhere but here. No one even wants to come here to visit. Our tourism economy has collapsed. If it weren't for the World cup, we'd probably be at net negative for tourism this year. And people only came to the World cup because they cared about the teams, not because they could stand being in the United States with Trump in charge. He's destroyed the country. He's physically destroyed it. I didn't get a chance to do it tonight. But Donald Trump has taken away the normal money that goes out for rebuilding our infrastructure. He has removed it. Where's infrastructure? Week at least under Biden, our airports were getting fixed, our roads were getting fixed. Now all of a sudden, Donald Trump has withdrawn the money. Where's the money? All the money apparently is going to go to his ballroom, which is now just a big hole in the White House. He's destroyed the pool. The poor little reflecting pool is gray. And now when they finally drained it again, the only torn up 350ft of damage was from his convoy that drove through it before the base had cured. Donald Trump is a destroyer. He has wrecked the country, made the presidency a joke and also a king ship. He's destroyed the Supreme Court and it had the lowest ratings it's ever had. He's destroyed the integrity of Congress, made them into weak little nothings this is. This is a nightmare. We're in the nadir. And the Republicans only play at this point is to drag poor Fauci out of bed who's like, retired somewhere and say, you did the pandemic. It's your fault. Let's do a hearing and curse at you so that we can get clicks. And now, I promise you, this is all Fox is going to do. See, Rand Paul. I mean, Rand Paul got into Rand Paul destroyed Fauci. Destroyed Fauci. No, Fauci played y' all because he didn't play with you. He said, I'm not gonna play this game, and I'm not gonna argue with a bunch of idiots who can't even legislate and refuse to come to work. Half the time. Y' all are on vacation. You came back out of vacation, Corny. You're already out. Why are you even playing these games? Republican senators don't even work. They've decided to finally come to work to scream at Anthony Fauci.

Really?

Is Anthony Fauci the reason a million people died from COVID No. They're like the Wuhan Clinic. Okay, okay.

[Chelsea Fuller]

You.

[Joy Reid]

You utter morons. I'm embarrassed. I'm raising my hand to say I'm embarrassed. We also have a new Director of National Intelligence who could not say who won the 2020 election. Of course, he got through, even with, you know, Mitch, Twitchy Mitchie, you know, in convalescence or dead or wherever. Rand Paul, our supposed hero of the day, came out and said, I don't know. And, you know, we've had people who didn't show up for years. That's not a flex. He said, I don't know why people are so exercised about it. Seems to me like the governor of Kentucky is just trying to get on tv. No, he's trying to get on TV to find out if the senator is alive. At this point, yes, it is only the Democratic Party that can save us because it's the only party that is sent. Is full of sentient beings. At this point, the Republicans are all brain numbed. They all are smooth brained automatons who do literally nothing. They don't go to work. They don't pass any bills, not even bills that I would hate. They do nothing with their time except yell at Anthony Fauci. It's a waste of time. We know who did 2020. We know who's responsible for killing a million people. His name is Donald Trump. He's probably asleep right now. Go wake him up and tell him to do his damn job. All right, let's go to our moment of joy. I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed, y'.

[Chelsea Fuller]

All.

[Joy Reid]

Aren't you embarrassed? Are you not ashamed to be in a country with a moron sundowning president who leads a party of numbnuts, who can't think of any better strategy to survive the midterm elections than to try to outright steal them by creating a fake international conspiracy and screaming at Anthony Fauci? Is that. Is this the best that you have? Republicans? Seriously, how are we losing to these people? And by the way, Democrats. You know how you're losing to these people? Because you keep saying you can't beat these people and that you need 60 votes to topple them. No one even believes that anymore. And you're so busy screaming at progressives for daring to, like, offer free health care, God forbid. How dare you to offer the things that we've been pining for since fdr? How dare you actually offer cheap groceries and cheap rent? Ah, just because we've wanted that for 100 years and we couldn't do it. How dare you. DSA, you bastards. How dare you offer Jesse Jackson's entire 1984, 1988 presidential platform. How dare you? That was Jesse Jackson's platform, and he is deceased. We no longer want to hear about that. Who will protect Israel? Who will protect the AI oligarchs? It must be us. I mean, seriously, Democrats, you gotta stop with this shit. Like, literally, you have this on a silver platter. No one wants the Republicans anymore. People are. I mean, until, you know, four years from now when they freaking elect another one. You actually have an opportunity, but you got to stand up to these people and act like you're actually fighting fascists, because you are. Stephen Miller, the most hideous looking person in Washington, thinks all of you are deformed. You're all deformed. Anyway, let's move on. Yes, 2020 is when we should have 2020. We did wake up, but everybody went back to sleep. Was like, you know, maybe million people dying. Wasn't so bad because Stimmy.

[Jamie Harrison]

Are you sure you want to do

[Joy Reid]

a moment of joy?

[Jamie Harrison]

Are you sure you want to do

[Joy Reid]

our moment of joy? I do want to do a moment, because I think we need it now. People are calling for Nosferat. Yes, Nosferatu. Which is who? Is who Stephen Miller is. I mean, he's literally Nosferatu. He looks just like him. He looks like the character nosferatu from the 1905 movie the Black and white one. Like the hideous Scary one. He literally looks like that.

Yeah.

And yet he did.

[Latasha Brown]

Yes.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah.

No moments of joy. No joy. There is no joy. I am a moment of joy. Yes, I am.

[Latasha Brown]

I am deformed and I love it.

[Joy Reid]

Bottom line is I'm gonna. I'm gonna end it here because I know we've gone way over today, but I really enjoyed our show today. Thank you, everybody for watching. On Friday, I'm excited to talk to Cori Bush. If you are in Missouri's first district, just. Just go ahead and vote for her because we're gonna get into it. We did ask Wesley Bell to come on. He's still welcome to come on. I have questions. I would love to speak with him about them, but apparently he doesn't want to do interviews. He just wants to let Apac put it. Give him a nice. Give me, let me keep. Nice job. I will vote for Israel money. He also says it's not a genocide. I'll play that. That sound for you on Friday. He says it's not a genocide at all. I'm like, do you have eyes? Do your eyes not work? Are you okay? Do you not have a phone? Can you look on it and see? Also, I'm just openly gonna say, vote for Abdul Al Sayed. I know I don't work for corporate media, so I can actually take a side. And then also, don't Forget, tomorrow at 11, we will be live streaming that press conference from Ben Crump regarding the latest on the Nolan Wells case as well as two other cases of young black men who have disappeared in Mississippi and really questioning whether the infrastructure, the legal infrastructure in Mississippi is up to the job of figuring out what happened in Olin Wells, whether they are even capable of doing it or interested in doing it, and whether there's so much bias there that maybe families are just not able to get justice. And again, I will finally say my PSA one more time. Just be careful. You. If you're out there making content about this case, you know, Google libel and slander laws, be careful what you're saying. Don't make accusations about people killing people if you don't have evidence of it, because those people are deeply enmeshed now in the right wing media infrastructure. In that system. They're in that system and they're the

[Jamie Harrison]

first way to get rich.

[Joy Reid]

And they're the further right to than Fox. They're in the infrastructure that is the media online podcast infrastructure. They've embedded themselves there. They went to, you know, officer not friendly to black people for a reason. They're very strategic about that. Their parents made it. I think are very much involved in how they are shaping this narrative. I mean, Megyn Kelly covering this is a clue. That lady don't have no interest in black people that I've ever seen. I've never seen any interest she cares about Anybody did black except for maybe Clarence Thomas. Maybe she should buy him a nice, like, camper or something since she loves that particular guy so much. All right, guys, do you guys know you want to skip a little bit of joy? I don't want to skip it.

[Latasha Brown]

It's on you.

[Joy Reid]

We don't have a lot of time, but okay, I know. We're so over. We're lemon late with our ending. So our moment of joy comes from Birmingham, Alabama. We're going to make a hard turn. Hard turn. We're gonna. It comes from Alabama. And this actually posted back in May. And this is the story from from local station WTVM 13. One of the biggest moments of Brandon Jackson's life became even more memorable on Friday thanks to a surprise guest at his graduation from Huffman High School. Just after crossing the stage, he was shocked to see his father, Air Force Major Sergeant Tobias Jackson, who flew home from Japan to attend the ceremony. And let's play the clip.

[Latasha Brown]

Brandon Jackson.

[Joy Reid]

Sam. Hey, hold it real quick. Hold it real quick. I had the stuff to do your gift.

[Latasha Brown]

And you know what I do.

[Jamie Harrison]

It's in your hand. Wait, this right there.

[Lindsey Graham]

Oh, my.

[Latasha Brown]

Oh, my.

[Jamie Harrison]

I got a car.

[Latasha Brown]

Oh, my. I'm in summer.

[Joy Reid]

Oh, my.

[Latasha Brown]

And I took out my license gun for days.

[Jamie Harrison]

Oh, my God.

[Joy Reid]

I got it.

[Latasha Brown]

I love all y. I got a car, bro.

[Jamie Harrison]

What is me?

[Joy Reid]

I like this.

[Latasha Brown]

I like this.

[Jamie Harrison]

Wait, wait, hold on.

[Joy Reid]

How.

[Latasha Brown]

How I start the car?

[Daniel Levy]

Oh,

[Joy Reid]

The car is on right now.

[Latasha Brown]

This a little advanced for me. We got this for you. I like the though. I like this.

[Jamie Harrison]

I'm feeling a. Y' all recording me?

[Joy Reid]

Are y' all recording me?

[Daniel Levy]

Thank y'.

[Latasha Brown]

All. I appreciate you. You are.

[Daniel Levy]

Thank you,

[Joy Reid]

Man.

[Chelsea Fuller]

This a.

[Daniel Levy]

This is.

[Latasha Brown]

That's too surprising one right now. Let me put my stuff in the car. Can I take my clothes off?

[Joy Reid]

Pretty cool. I love that, by the way. Let me read a little bit more of the story. Just before his name was called, Brandon shook an officer's hand and quietly said, I made it. And his. His dad had actually been in Okinawa, Japan. Master Sergeant Jackson surprised him. He's an Air Force veteran. He'd been stationed in Japan for the past three years, and his son had no idea that he had arranged to fly home for his graduation. His son had thought that his dad was going to have to watch him graduate via a live stream. So he was expecting that his father had only was only going to get to see him graduate on a stream and instead his dad popped up on him and gave him a car. So big ups to Brandon Jackson. It was his big moment. We're so happy. He was so happy. And the way he tried to give him a pound before he gave him a hug was super cute. That's young people. And the clip. Let me big up Jarvis Robertson from WVTM 13 and Gilliam Brooks of WBRC and they are the ones who shot that amazing video and it was posted by the Ox talk aux talk on TikTok. So thank you for that moment of joy. We love to see it. We love, first of all, young men getting their graduation, a very happy kid and getting to see his dad a dad son moment. And we love it. All right, y', all, thank you so much for tuning in to the Joy Reid show. Don't forget, tomorrow at noon, Jamie Harrison and I are going to give you the inside scoopola on how South Carolina wound up at the top of the, of the, of the Democratic calendar for 2028. And then, of course, 11am an hour before that, we will be streaming Ben Crump's newest press conference on the Nolan Wells case. All right, y', all, thanks for watching. See you guys tomorrow. Be good and I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Peace.

[Jamie Harrison]

Getting back to the basics. Grassroot level.

[Daniel Levy]

Let me dig a little deeper with

[Jamie Harrison]

the shovel Plenty can't tell on the 4th it's from the trees that I'm

[Latasha Brown]

hard to detect Like a black hole

[Jamie Harrison]

in a dark injustice anywhere It's a threat to justice everywhere Let me make

[Latasha Brown]

this clear I got a bone to pick and I'll never fear the threat

[Jamie Harrison]

of poverty they don't want to talk

[Latasha Brown]

about it they wrap the party so I'm a real talk about it for show.