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- [00:00]
Joy Reid
I wrote a little song to remind you. Choice hotels get you more of the experiences you value.
- [00:05]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
The Cambria Hotel's got it all. A rooftop bar. Have a bar.
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Joy Reid
Bring a date, your squad or even your mom.
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Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Book direct@ChoiceHotels.com. Okay?
- [00:27]
Joy Reid
Yeah.
- [00:30]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
All right, everybody. Hello. Happy Monday. Welcome to the Dirt Read Show. Hope you guys had a fabulous, fantabulous, exceptional weekend. So glad to see you back here. We're always pleased to have your faces in place. Big ups to Brittany Stewart was the first student in class tonight. She got here early. Thank you for being here as well. Elite QT says hello. Hello, hello, hello. We have the Joy Secrets Project saying hello J and J. A little big up to you, Jason. We also have Yolanda Payne Morse, also a lemonhead in the house. We love our Reed Lemon heads that come and hang out with us after hanging out at the Don Lemon Show. So thank you all for being here. Hopefully you guys are ready for a action packed show. You've got a lot going on on tonight. Want to make sure before we get started that you do remember to hit like and subscribe. We always appreciate you doing that. If you're here early, you're probably already a subscriber. Let's just be real. So what you could do that would be great would be to hit share, grab that link, send it to five friends, maybe send it to 10 friends and try to grow our our friend nation. We want to grow, grow the readers to an army. Big up to everyone who is on YouTube, on substack, on Twitch, your Twitchies if you're hello Twitchies, Facebook as well. And also LinkedIn our LinkedIn fans and also those of you who are listening on a an audio podcast platform. We appreciate that. I'll try to use my, my radio voice for you guys. We appreciate that. Don't forget to hit that QR code if you want to get on the mailing list for runmemyslushmoney.com because believe it or not, the slush fund is not dead. We wish it was dead, but it's not dead. And they're still playing with our money, playing in our faces in Washington D.C. we, we want to make sure that you're listing the updated information if anything changes regard to the availability of those funds because we want to make sure those funds go to the people who deserve them, not to J6ers. And you can also send letters to your members of Congress, to your United States senator saying hell no. Do not pay violent January 6th or any January 6ers if you're going to send out reparations. It needs to go to people who deserve them. And so start with the descendants of enslaved people. Also, use our birthday code all month. If you hit the code birthday, you can get 15% off everything in the store. So we want to make sure that you understand that as well. Before we jump into the show in chief, let me note that tonight's show, tonight's story beach show is brought to you by our friends at the Freedom from Religion Foundation. And as we head into the Fourth of July and approach America's 250th anniversary, it is worth asking, what exactly are we celebrating? Because the United States began as a rejection of monarchy, divine rule, and the idea that freedom belongs only to certain people. The founders created a secular constitution with zero religious tests and a government that is supposed to be accountable to the people, not to one person. That framework made expanding the rights and freedoms of everyone possible over time eventually. But progress is never guaranteed. Right now, we are seeing growing efforts to blur the line between church and state, in schools, in public policy, and in the broader culture. And those shifts have real consequences for people's rights, for who gets treated equally and as full and equal parts of the American public and of the population. The Freedom from Religion foundation is working to protect the First Amendment because it protects everybody's freedom of conscience. If you want to support the important work they're doing, go to FFRF US Joy or just text my first name joy to 511511. To join or to find out more, go to FFRF US joy or just text joy to 511511. As we celebrate independence Day, this is about more than just history. It's about what kind of country we are becoming or what we're allowing ourselves to become. So text JOY to 511-511-today to find out more and join. Text Fees may apply. So we all know that. Donald. Oh, oh, I didn't mention one more thing that in honor also, of course, because we are doing the whole 250 thing, we do have a USA America 250 collection over at the store, which you can get obviously using the code, birthday 15% off. We also have a really cute Frederick Douglass collection. And this is a design collabo between our wonderful Sean and our artist in residence, Winsome. So you can see their work together. They work together and put this, these two collections together and they're really cute. Okay, so my question of the night. Has anyone been to the Great American State Fair? Anyone? Anyone at all. Has anyone been to the Great American State Fair?
- [05:04]
Jason
I mean birthday America. We're celebrating already at the Great American State Fair, man. We've got thousands of people celebrating this birthday with us. Tommy, you and I had a chance to go out. We got to see some of the exhibits. I'm sure you got what I got, which was a lot of people going, hey, love to watch it on fox. I hope a lot of them left the mall, went home and turned on their TV and revisit what you guys said earlier. I have never seen so many people, so many cool people.
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Joy Reid
I'm a conservative, you know that.
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Jason
But there are Democrats here and we're not talking about anything except patriotism and the celebration of America. So all of these self hating media
- [05:40]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
outlets who are saying that this fair
- [05:42]
Jason
is a failure, get your butt down
- [05:44]
Joy Reid
here and I will prove you wrong.
- [05:46]
Jason
This is historical. This is epic.
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Rula Jibril
You ever in your wildest dreams think you may be doing your Sunday show from a state fair on the National Mall? How great is this?
- [06:08]
Jason
It's really. It's really something. And the weather, not the best today. But people are still coming out.
- [06:13]
Rula Jibril
People are still coming. Listen, we need rain, so we'll take it. The farmers need the rain, so we're going to be okay with it.
- [06:19]
Jason
We do need rain for first.
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Rula Jibril
Yes.
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Jason
Ladies and gentlemen, we are Cir Mechanics. We're all the way from Las Vegas,
- [06:28]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
really excited to be here with the
- [06:30]
Joy Reid
National Endowment for the Arts on the
- [06:32]
Jason
mall for the 250th. We're going to start it off with
- [06:36]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Aussie and the drum. Excellent. Tens of people. Thousand. No, he meant tens of people. I mean, that was over the weekend. That was a. It opened on Friday. And that was after Donald Trump, you know, remember he couldn't get a big concert because no actual A listers or even B listers would show up to his concert. So he did his own speech and like half the people walked out before he was done. Then he claimed they didn't walk out, but they kind of did. So there was no. There were hardly any people. Okay, there's very few people, but there was a Confederate flag that showed up the north. So about 14 states refused to send any delegations at all. It was supposed to be all 50 states would send a delegation. About 14 states said, yeah, they're not sending anything. So just. If you could put up a two. This is. You can just turn the sound down. It was it. So this was the North Carolina delegations exhibit. And. And it was not done by the state of North Carolina, because North Carolina was one of the states that said no to sending an official, you know, sort of setup in their booth. And so a private organization decided to send it instead. And they sent this, that car, that sort of, you know, painted up car, and these two Confederate flags that were portrayed in the screens. The governor of North Carolina objected, said, take that thing down immediately. Because how can you honor America's 250th birthday by celebrating and commemorating our sworn enemy in the Civil War? Like, that's the most unpatriotic thing I've ever heard of. You're celebrating and commemorating our sworn enemy in the Civil War in your exhibit for America. 250. That doesn't even make sense. Like, that's ridiculous. But that's what happened. And so it was repudiated by the governor of North Carolina. He demanded that that crap be taken down. It was eventually taken down, I think, but there it is. Let's see some of the headlines that are coming out of it. And essentially everyone's just saying, it's a strange thing. You know, there's a Ferris wheel, not a lot of people. The National Guard is sort of walking around. You can see the overhead view. There's getting mocked all over social media. This guy is a, a right wing live streamer who apparently, at least was arrested for and accused of, shall I say, playing with himself in front of the crowd. He apparently did lewd behaviors and was accused of doing lewd behaviors. So that, so that kind of pil sums up sort of the state of Donald Trump's State Fair. It's a colossal failure. It's a colossal failure. And just to be clear, whether Donald Trump had won or Kamala Harris had, once there was going to be a commemoration of the anniversary of the United States, this is something that was going to happen regardless. But Donald Trump's version of it has been a failure because they replaced the nonpartisan organization whose job it was to create the commemorations of with a partisan pro Trump organization. And nobody except MAGA wants to be associated with it. So like I said, more than a dozen states said, we're not sending a delegation to this pro Trump, you know, celebrating Trump fest. And so you wound up with this sort of pathetic, you know, sort of series of booths where most of the booths are just like a poster and like a chair. And then you've got other booths that are a little more elaborate because it's a red state booth, but there's no one at any of the booths. So it kind of doesn't matter. What you. Because there now, today versus Monday, that was over the weekend. You'd think the biggest traffic would be over the weekend when people had time. It's the weekend as we're leading into July 4th. Coming up this weekend, let's see how things fared. Jason, Today, Monday.
- [10:37]
Jason
It's typically hot in the summer, but it's not this hot in the summer. That's it from here for me. But a guy who knows all about places that are hot. Lawrence. L.J. you're over in Texas.
- [10:48]
Joy Reid
I think I was born in heat and that's Texas.
- [10:52]
Jason
Yeah, you were.
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Joy Reid
Adam, thank you so much. All right, so we're right in front of the, the Texas tent. This is where everything big happens.
- [10:59]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
All right.
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Joy Reid
If you look over there, there's a rodeo. You're going to get cattle, you're going to get horses.
- [11:04]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And that's all from Texas.
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Joy Reid
But I want y' all to meet a special friend.
- [11:06]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
You know, it will.
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Joy Reid
Let's go. This is the Secretary Agriculture. Oh, my goodness. Welcome time. It's good to be back home.
- [11:17]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
He was so happy to see a person. He was like, oh, God, a person. Thank God there's no there. So, I mean, Donald Trump, once again, another failure. As Mary Trump, his niece has said, he's just a failure. It gets worse. We're going to show you this for a second. They then decided to get a bunch of young people, I, I say a bunch in scarecrows because there wasn't a bunch of anyone. But they made these poor kids try to do a pancake eating contest where they attempted to eat a lot of pancakes on a stick. Let's see how that went.
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Jason
And this morning, four younger Americans put their stomachs to the test with a pancake eating contest. That's tough on any day, let alone
- [11:54]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
in this kind of heat.
- [11:55]
Jason
The winner was determined by audience applause. The guy who won appeared really worried
- [11:59]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
he wasn't going to be able to keep the pancakes down.
- [12:00]
Isosa Osa
But in the end, he made it Today the focus.
- [12:05]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
I don't know what else to say other than this is the most pathetic celebration. You know, I was a kid during the 1976 bicentennial, and I remember as a kid it being a big celebration all over the country, and this was Gerald Ford, and he still managed to have a pretty significant national celebration. This has been very pathetic, quite pathetic. And it would be bad enough if it was just the joke of Donald Trump attempting to do anything right, which, again, he's a middling real estate developer who got lucky because his father was really Rich. And he was able to buy his way into UPenn, and he was able to sort of finance his ongoing failures as a casino magnate, et cetera, and then failed up into a TV show, the Apprentice, when he was at his financial bottom. And he fooled millions of Americans into believing that he was a great businessman because most people don't pay that much attention. And so they were like, oh, he must be a businessman. I mean, he wrote a book about business and. Which he didn't write, and he was on tv, so he must be a really successful rich person. And so because people are, to be blunt, gullible, they were like, well, that guy should be president. And he's terrible at it. He's terrible at being president. He's bad at everything. He does not know. He can't even get America's 250th birthday right. They've been quickly scrubbing black history from the museums from the United States military, from Arlington National Cemetery. He's, you know, put up gold statues all over town, destroyed the east wing, destroyed the West Wing by putting up gold filigree that he's hot gluing two fixtures inside the Oval Office. True story. With hot glue himself. He's replaced all these pictures of the presidents with, like, joke pictures of Obama and joke pictures of Biden. Like, he's made the presidency ridiculous. He's made the presidency a joke, and now he's made the 250th anniversary of the United States a joke. And in some ways, it's kind of appropriate that Donald Trump has turned our 250th anniversary into one big joke, because a lot of what they're doing is to make the idea of America ridiculous. The idea that this is a country that cares about freedom and liberty is ridiculous. If you think about the way that we've treated so many groups of Americans over the course of this country's history, the idea that freedom and liberty were the founding principles of the country while the same people writing the Constitution owned slaves. That, and of itself is ridiculous. So, in a way, Donald Trump is kind of our just desserts. He has sort of made. He's made flesh and made real all the contradictions of the country. We supposedly broke away from the king, King George of England, only to have the Supreme Court turn Donald Trump into a kind of king who is.
- [14:57]
Gary Pierre
Who's.
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Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Apparently, his decisions are unreviewable even by the court, who can sort of do whatever he wants, who can steal, he can commit bribery, he can commit crimes, he can have his enemies Arrested, he can behave like mad King George, according to John Roberts and the Roberts Court. So 250 years later, we're sort of stuck with a like incompetent weirdo kind of king who is the equivalent of Mad King George who was an incompetent king of England who lost the colonies because of his own arrogance and incompetence. It kind of is poetic if you think about it that way. So the ridiculous failure of a state fair is actually kind of appropriate if you think about probably makes more sense than if there had been a, an Obama presidential library style, successful, star studded extravaganza, which, by the way, is what we would have had if Kamala Harris was president. And it would have been spectacular, but it wouldn't have really been the sort of just desserts and sort of where we are kind of morally as a country. Right? Like this is actually more real. We're a country that wants to banish black people and black culture and black history. And then you're left with when you take away the multicultural history of the country and you take away these sort of ethnic sort of panoply, we take away the mosaic. You're left with what's at that state fair that actually is MAGA culture. A few senior citizens in red hats strolling around, A couple of tourists walking through the South Carolina exhibit. A couple of people having a pancake eating contest. No culture, no music, no bands, no hip hop, no jazz. None of the things that make America America. And the other thing that makes America America is supposedly that we don't do gulags and political prisoners. Except that we kind of do. Take a look at this photo if you can put that up, Jason. This is a six. If we can grab that. It's. Let me know when you have it. There it is. So this is a photo of a group of political prisoners in the United States in the year of our Lord 2026. Each of these people that you see in that picture have been convicted of terrorism. They've been convicted of terrorism for participating in an anti ice protest for which they were labeled antifa, which is the regime's favorite madeup, fake terrorist group, which is really just a loose configuration of people who are anti fascist. Antifa is short for anti fascist. And antifa, which is not an organized group, short show up wherever fascists are and protest them. And in this case, people have showed up to protest mass incarceration of migrants and the kidnapping of migrants into concentration camps. This group showed up at one of those detention facilities in Texas and they did a protest and the people who've participated in that have received between 50 and 100 years in prison for participating in that anti ICE protest. And just to be clear, the designation of antifa includes not just being against ice, but being against capitalism, being in favor of what they consider extreme gender ideology, or not being a right wing Christian. Those things are literally in the written executive order designation of what antifa, meaning their version of a left wing terrorist is. Those people are terrorists, but not these people. If you could play. Multiple capital injuries, multiple capital injuries, Those people got presidential pardons and according to MAGA and Donald Trump, those people are patriots. Just so that we're clear on what is what, very quickly before I introduce our guest, after just going to read this a little bit from the Guardian. After a three week jury trial, nine activists were all found guilty of a slew of criminal charges in March stemming from a Fourth of July protest in an immigrant detention facility in Alvarado, Texas, south of Fort Worth. The demonstrators arrived late at night with a plan to set off fireworks as part of a noise demonstration to show solidarity with those detained inside. A few of the protesters spontaneously broke off from the main group and vandalized cars in the parking lot, a guard shack, slashed tires on a government van and broke a security camera. When a police officer arrived at the scene and drew his weapon, one of the activists fired an AR15, hitting the officer in the shoulder. The officer survived. Benjamin Song, who fired the gun at the police officer, was sentenced to 100 years in prison, longer than anyone who did the insurrection. On January 6, Song was convicted of attempted murder of an officer of the United States, as well as a firearm and explosive charges. He was also convicted of riot providing material support to terrorists. He faced anywhere from 20 years to life in prison. Zachary Evitz, Autumn Hill, Savannah Batten, Elizabeth Soto and Megan Morris were sentenced to 50 years in prison. Maricela Rueda, another demonstrator, was sentenced to 70 years in prison. All six were convicted of riot providing material support to terrorists and explosive charges. Rueda was also convicted of corruptly concealing a document or record. One more before we bring in our guests, we want to show you this man. His name is Daniel Rolando Sanchez Estrada. This man received 30 years in prison for transporting a box of constitutionally protected pamphlets and zines, zines from Reason magazine. Sanchez Estrada was not present on the night of July 4, 2025, when a group of protesters were arrived at the Prairie Land Detention center outside of Dallas to set off fireworks and signal solidarity with the immigrant detainees. Held inside, but his wife, Maricel Rueda, was present and subsequently arrested after the demonstration turned violent. Reeda later called Sanchez Estrada from the Johnson County Jail and told him to do whatever you need to do and move whatever you need to move at the house, according to the criminal complaint. After Aureta's call, officers observed Sanchez Estrada load and move a box from his home to another residence containing numerous antifa materials such as insurrection planning, anti law enforcement, anti government and anti immigration enforcement documents, according to his indictment. But despite these materials falling squarely under the protection of the First Amendment, Sanchez Estrada was arrested, charged and convicted of corruptly concealing a document and conspiracy to conceal documents. He since filed a motion to overturn his conviction. Joining me now is our friend Paul Butler, Georgetown law professor and author. And Paul, it's good to have you back. Walk us through how it is that without there being a terrorism statute on the books in the United States, and that's my understanding from just knowing you, that we don't have a domestic terrorism statute in the United States, how could these people be convicted of terrorism and sentenced up to 100 years in prison?
- [22:43]
Joy Reid
So they were convicted of eight people were convicted of providing support to terrorism. And terrorism, according to the Trump administration, is antifa, which as you mentioned, isn't any organized group. It's kind of an ideology. And yet this administration has this very concerning directive, it's called National Security Directive Number seven, which identifies terrorism, as you noted, joy, as supporting anti capitalism. It says extreme views on gender and race and people who don't support what the administration thinks of as traditional family or Christian values can also be labeled as terrorists or supporting terrorists. So this direction is the basis of this prosecution in Texas in which these people who were protesters, some of them did commit crimes, including one serious crime of attempted murder of a police officer. But the sentences for all of the crimes are significantly longer than what almost anybody would have received for the same crime.
- [24:14]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Right. I mean, I think about the January 6th insurrection and you had people bear spray and tase police officers, including Capitol Police officers, and they didn't receive 50 to 100 years in prison. Even the longest sentences of all were 20 years for people who planned the insurrection and the violence therein. How can it be that attempting to kill police officers by stun gunning them over and over and over again until they have multiple heart attacks. How is that not as serious a crime as firing a gun into an officer's shoulder, as bad as that is?
- [24:50]
Joy Reid
So if you look at the facts of the January 6th cases, and you look at the facts of this protest in Texas, it's hard to see why January 6th wasn't significantly worse than January 6th. Also involved people who planned and committed violence against police officers. It was politically directed violence. The judge in the Texas case said that he was throwing the book at the defendants because they undermine democracy. Well, I think that the January 6th defendants had a more coordinated attack, according to Jack Smith, a special prosecutor egged on by the former president Donald Trump, actually the then president Donald Trump, to subvert democracy. Whereas in Texas, we had people who were members of a book discussion group, Joy, and also a gun club, but their guns were legal, who went to this demonstration. The idea was that they were going to make a lot of noise and send messages of support to the immigrants who are locked up inside this torture chamber that is the federal detention center there. Torture chamber in the sense of extreme inhumane conditions, according to many reports. So there was a group that broke off and that committed acts of vandalism. They put graffiti, they slash tires, they set off explosives. So is that criminal? Yes. Is it worth 50, 70 years in prison? Of course not. This is a classic instance of not only the punishment not fitting the crime, but really looking, as you suggested, Joy, like a political prosecution and making these people political prisoners.
- [26:55]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And the idea here is that under this designation, you could deem the people who were lighting Teslas on fire to protest Donald Trump as terrorists. You could say that anyone who was protesting against abortion bans is a terrorist because they don't believe in a traditional right wing Christian religious view on that. If you protested against the Bible, you know, being forced on students in schools, they could say, well, you're a terrorist because you don't believe the Bible. I mean, like this opens the door to thought crimes. Anyone who doesn't agree with Trump, at least according to this, is antifa, anti fascist. So if you're against fascism, you're a terrorist.
- [27:37]
Joy Reid
And before the FBI was politicized by its director and by the Trump administration, it is said that the number one source of domestic terrorism was white supremacist organizations. The Trump administration has more or less ignored that clear and present danger to focus on left wing and left radical organizations, as opposed to the organizations that we know are supporting white supremacy, that don't think that black and brown and Asian people belong in this country with the same rights. And they have proven that they are willing to use violence to implement their white supremacist ends. And the Trump administration seems to be turning a blind eye to that clear and present danger while it's focusing on people who, who are protesting ice.
- [28:38]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And it feels like they're doing more than just turning a blind eye because they're also prosecuting the Southern Poverty Law Center. So it seems to me that what this government is doing is they're saying, we are here to protect far right wing extremists, even neo Nazis. If you are a Nazi, a neo Nazi, as long as you're pro Trump, they think that's only legal, but it's protected to the point where the government will shut down whatever organization is trying to disband your, disband you. Right. Southern Poverty Law center is trying to harm and disband right wing extremist groups, and so they are now considered criminals. Like, this definitely feels like an apartheid move.
- [29:16]
Joy Reid
Well, there's definitely a signal to people who support extreme far right causes that the Trump administration is on your side. Whereas the people who are anti fascist, people who have views on race and gender that may be extreme, but that are protected by the First Amendment, that are protected by the Constitution, the message from the administration to those folks is you better watch out. Because if you are in a group with anybody who does something, it doesn't matter whether you knew they were going to do. It doesn't matter whether it was planned. If you are associated with people who commit crimes, then you're going to go down, too. So that's a chilling effect. It's not a chilling effect on any kind of terrorist. It's a chilling effect on people who support causes that the Trump administration does not agree with.
- [30:28]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
The other piece of it. And I want to get into a couple other instances, and this is why I wanted to start with this rather than the Supreme Court, because I think people can look at some of these rulings that are not bad news of the Supreme Court and think, oh, we're probably okay, but I don't trust John Roberts to do anything about this. I mean, Donald Trump right now is profiting off of Tasers. If you put up a nine, Jason, Donald Trump has implemented policies purchasing Tasers for ice and as he's doing that, buying stock in the companies that make the Tasers. So going after liberal groups, going after immigrants is profitable personally to Donald Trump. He's profiting personally. His friends are profiting personally from the GeoCities and CoreCivic. These people who give him money, put money into his campaigns, and God knows how else they get him money. He's profiting from going after liberal groups and immigrants. This is. And the Supreme Court won't stop it. They're not going to.
- [31:24]
Joy Reid
Yeah. So any other federal employee who engaged in that kind of stock trade which looks like a conflict of interest would be on his or her way to jail because there's a federal criminal law that prevents conflicts of interest. It in trades, it exempts the president. So it actually preempted the Supreme Court, which a couple of years ago provided broad immunity to the president for his or her official acts. So again, the federal conflict of interest law doesn't apply to Trump, but the idea is that the Congress has the ultimate remedy for what looks like a criminal violation. With a couple of caveats. So again, of course, President Trump says that he had no idea what stock trades are being made on his behalf. It's his kids who are doing it, not him. Now, again, most presidents have allowed blind trust to conduct their stock trades, so they have no idea what's going on. President Trump has refused to do that. He said, well, my boys can take care of my stock. And we just have to take his word that he's not communicating. Hey, we're about to make ICE buy a whole lot of Tasers. We're about to make them quadruple the number of Tasers that they have. And Joy, there's really only one company that can do this kind of volume production of these kinds of non lethal weapons. And lo and behold, that just happens to be the company that Trump or Trump's kids bought this stock in. That will, as many other actions he's taken during his presidency, make him a very rich man. Not necessarily because of his financial acumen, but because he's running the government right now.
- [33:50]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Yeah. And both the sons I should know for our audience are also both government contractors. They just got a major Pentagon contract, so they're profiting directly from the war in Iran. Before I move on to the Supreme Court real quick, Paul, I just want to go back to. Because the Ruedas, Mrs. Rueda, I believe, has gotten 30 years for her part in the, her part in the protest in Texas. Mr. Rueda has gotten 30 years. They put both couple, both of the couple. I believe these two people are married to each other. But in his case, Mr. Daniel Rolando Sanchez Estrada, how can it be a crime to transport First Amendment protect materials? Zines in a box. How is it a crime to move zines in a box? I don't understand how that could even possibly be a crime.
- [34:37]
Joy Reid
So according to the indictment, when the wife was arrested, she called from the jail and she maybe didn't know that when you make a call from a jail, it's recorded and provided to prosecutors. And she said, do what you have to do. Words to the effect of, if you have to move some stuff out of the house, do that. So there's a federal criminal statute that says when people conceal documents with the intent to obstruct an investigation, that's a federal crime. Now, the documents in this case were reading material. They were pamphlets and zines that are protected by the First Amendment. So is this a case that deserves 30 years in prison? These charges are stemming from a protest, and dude wasn't even at the protest.
- [35:33]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And by the way, I smile because Donald Trump concealed, had his employees hiding classified documents that he had hidden in his bathroom in his bar. My head is exploding. Okay, let me very quickly before I let you go, Paul, before my head actually literally explodes. The Supreme Court today had a few. You know, I always felt like John Roberts tries to make himself look better by siding with the liberals on a couple of things to set us up for the big takedown of massive amounts of our rights. So they ruled for E. Jean Carroll, saying that her lawsuit against Donald Trump for defamation will stand. He will have to pay her at least, I don't know if he's ever going to pay her $86 million settlement, that he did defame her, that he did sexually abuse her. They ruled in favor of voters in Mississippi saying that if your ballot arrives after election Day, but you postmarked it by election Day, that should count. And they said Lisa Cook cannot be fired, at least for now, from the Federal Reserve, although an FTC member of the Federal Trade Commission can be fired. When you, when you, when you look at these rulings, you sort of sum them up. Are you like me in thinking that means, oh, shit, they're going to rule against birthright citizenship? And so they're setting us up
- [36:50]
Joy Reid
again, based on the oral argument, it looks like they are going to rule against the Trump administration on birthright citizenship. And I think one reason it might be taking so long is that John Roberts knows that he's liable to the charges that you've made. He's an extreme conservative. Not charges, obviously, in a criminal sense, but just calling him out for what he is, which is an extraordinary right wing activist on the court. He's never seen a racial justice law that he hasn't wanted to overturn. We just celebrated Pride Week. This, this last week. John Roberts was so mad when the Supreme Court endorsed or said that people have the right to marry whoever they love. He read his dissent in that case from the bench. So, Joy, you're right. Nobody should get it twisted. John Roberts may in some senses be in the middle in this court, but just that just demonstrates how extraordinarily, historically right wing this court is. And so, yes, when we look at what happened today. So just to be clear, there were two cases involving Jean Carroll, one case in which she got a jury verdict of $5 million and another case in which she got a jury verdict of over $80 million. So the court's action today only involves the $5 million verdict. So it authorizes the decision of the court of appeals, which said that Ms. Carol is perfectly entitled to that $5 million, whether she's going to get the $85 million if the court is leaving for another day. But in terms of the actual decisions that were made today, so an important decision with regard to mail in voting, Mississippi. Joy, can you believe that? We're actually advocating. We're on the same side as Mississippi.
- [39:06]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Make it make sense. Make it make sense.
- [39:08]
Joy Reid
But Mississippi lawmakers, in their wisdom, actually have a law that says that when people vote by mail, as long as it's postmarked or on election Day, it's counted, even if it comes in up to five days later. Lots of states have that law, Mail in voting. It's really not partisan. A big group of people that conducts their votes by mail are our troops who are stationed overseas. It's also a big deal for a lot of senior citizens. You know who else votes? Votes by mail. Joy, you know what I'm going to say? Donald Trump votes by mail like many other senior citizens. That's right. But mail in voting was part of his big lie, that the 2020 election had irregularities or fraud, which is a lie. There's never been any substantiation. We've got lots of problems in this country, but the integrity of the election process is not one of those problems. Donald Trump wants to pretend like it is. And so he was against mail in voting because, again, he wants to make it look like there's fraud when there isn't. So, yes, the Supreme Court did the right thing in that case. A case that's more concerning involves whether Donald Trump has the power to fire people who work for independent agencies. And you think based on the word independent, that the president can't do whatever he wants to those agencies. But the court disrupted that common sense today. So what the court said two cases, one involving the Federal Reserve. And the court said that Trump can't fire a member of the Federal Reserve without Cause. And so it doesn't mean that he can't, as he's trying to do, fire Lisa Cook, the first African American woman appointed to the Federal Reserve Forward. But there has to be a process. He's got to give her a chance to present a defense. He wanted to fire her based on allegations that. That seem ridiculous. It seems there's no real evidence that we know of that she's committed a crime. He just didn't like her for whatever reason, the way that he doesn't like a whole lot of people, especially black women, as you know, Joy. But what the court said is that, again, because it's the Fed, because it has a different tradition. And really, what he said is because what the court implied is because what the Fed does is so important and so vital that the President shouldn't have the power to fire a member of that without cause. But he can fire members, the court said in another case of the Federal Communications Board. And this decision will also apply to a number of other independent agencies that do extremely important work, safeguarding nuclear facilities, regulating elections, regulating the media, the Equal Opportunity Commission. If Trump doesn't like any of those commissioners, he can just get rid of them for any reason or for no
- [43:02]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
reason, because we, you know, got rid of a king just to replace them with Donald Trump. Paul Butler, always a pleasure. Even though it's, you know, we say scaring is caring on this show, it's not always good news, my friend, when we talk to you, but it's always very illuminating. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate you.
- [43:17]
Joy Reid
Thank you for having me.
- [43:18]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Jordan, thank you so much. Well, there you have it, everyone. Paul does not believe what I do, that it's sort of a portent to bad things to come. But we shall see what happens with that course. So it is clear, though, in this country is that this country is betraying more than one fundamental value, right? Not just the values you just heard Paul Butler talking about, but also the one on the Statue of Liberty, you know, the one about, bring me, you're tired, you're poor, you're running. You know, your huddled masses yearning to be free. Well, they've replaced that tradition with this home. Get out. We know our country's better than yours. That's because we filled it with our work ethic and our culture and our values. You being here only dilutes it for us, those who built it and live it. And half of you people, more than half, you won't assimilate. We don't want you. We don't care if you're offended.
- [44:10]
Rula Jibril
Get out.
- [44:10]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Go home.
- [44:12]
Rula Jibril
Go back to fucking Haiti.
- [44:13]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Sorry. We have traded in the beacon of liberty for the wicked witch formerly of Fox. And you know the two countries that the supreme court has said that refugees can be sent back to Syria and Haiti are far from stable places to send men, women and children to. Which is literally what congresswoman Ayanna Pressley pointed out in a recent TV appearance. Take a listen.
- [44:41]
Isosa Osa
Trump's own state Department rev said Haiti
- [44:43]
Rula Jibril
is not a safe place to visit.
- [44:46]
Isosa Osa
So how could you then send back? It's just a death sentence. 360,000 of our Haitian neighbors back to what is a beautiful country but a very destabilized country in the wake of political assassinations of their president, of natural disasters consecutively and rampant gang violence and might I add contributed to by the trafficking of U. S gun.
- [45:08]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And the United nations agrees. Take a listen.
- [45:13]
Gary Pierre
Deeply moved by my visit to this
- [45:17]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
center of displaced people in Puerto Prince. The level of suffering that the violence that exists in Port au Prince has created is absolutely intolerable. I've seen women, women raped. I've seen young people without any hope in relation to the future.
- [45:36]
Gary Pierre
I see levels of poverty that are
- [45:38]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
absolutely intolerable and people living in the most desperate situation. This is the moment in which this international community needs to mobilize itself to fully support the gang suppression force that is now coming to Haiti to re establish peace, to reestablish security and at the same time to provide the humanitarian
- [46:05]
Gary Pierre
assistance that is absolutely crucial to minimize
- [46:09]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
the suffering of the population of Port au Prince that is not responsible for the crimes committed by the horrible gangs
- [46:17]
Isosa Osa
that today control large parts of the territory.
- [46:20]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And folks who are being eventually, you know, facing the prospect of being sent back to Haiti despite those conditions are duly afraid. Check out this very quick clip from ABC News. Type of panic in a sense that people in our community are wondering what the best action to do now in Springfield, Ohio, where more than 10,000 Haitians live, community leaders say families are stunned.
- [46:52]
Jason
TPS was the type of protection that allowed them to commute, to go to
- [46:58]
Isosa Osa
work, to do everything.
- [47:02]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And joining me now is journalist Gary Pierre. Pierre, he is the founder of the Haitian Times, Pulitzer Prize winning multimedia journalist and a leading voice on Haiti and the Haitian diaspora. Gary, thank you so much for being here.
- [47:13]
Gary Pierre
Thanks, Joy. Always a pleasure.
- [47:15]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
So talk to me about folks that you're speaking to. I'm sure you're hearing from a lot of people about the fears that you just heard expressed by those folks who spoke with abc. What are you Hearing from people about this TPS decision?
- [47:27]
Gary Pierre
Well, yeah, it's been real. I mean, I think what they're trying to do, let's just. People are upset, they're dejected, but that's the idea. This administration is not really wanting to deport people so much as to torture them here. Because like Villas said in that clip you just showed, people are afraid to go out. They don't go to church, they don't go to school, they don't send their children to school. It's fear, and that's really cruelty and it is immoral and it should be illegal. What's going on now? Because the thing that you talk about, Springfield, Ohio, the whole state, most of the Midwest, these Haitians are not there by accident. You think these Haitians left Port au Prince knowing where Indianapolis is, where Springfield, Ohio, they were recruited there. Okay. And there's a lot of ironies here. Ironies here, Joyce. But it's the fact that, you know, these people were recruited and they helped turn communities. And now this. I. I'm just really dumbfounded by our Supreme Court and the politics of it. It's just there's no more legal argument when they're hearing cases because it just doesn't make any sense. And now we find people who were asked to come here and now they tell. They're being told get out. By the administration and their acolytes and. And people that adjacent to maga.
- [49:06]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
So we spoke with Nana Gyamphy last week on Friday, and she pointed out that the rules regarding temporary Protected status are that if you come in under tps, it's because your country is in crisis and you're not supposed to be even returnable to that country so long as the crisis continues. And the question of whether a country is remaining in crisis is supposed to be left to both the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security. So I want you to listen to the head of the Department of Homeland Security, Mark Wayne Mullen, former senator, who was asked point blank by Jake Tapper, is Haiti a safe place to go back to? Because this is actually a required condition if you're going to send people back to that country. Jason, if you could play that, please.
- [49:51]
Jason
Obviously you're correct that the T in TPS stands for temporary. The Trump administration's argument. That's right. Is that this was only supposed to last 18 months. My understanding of how the process works is the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security has a discretion to extend it if the US State Department says that the countries that these people are from are still considered unsafe, which is why they were afforded TPS status to begin with. Is it the position of the Trump administration that Haiti is a safe country to send these people to? Well, we take a lot of things into consideration. Secretary Rubio, the president and I have had multiple conversations about this. Obviously, there's not, there's. The qualification isn't quite just that simple. And keep in mind, a lot of these individuals haven't been here 18 months. They've been here 18 years. Some of them have been here 20 years, 30 years. They've had plenty of time to reestablish their status inside the United States. They just chose not to. Then there's some that has been here underneath the Biden administration that took advantage of an open border. And those individuals didn't really come over here because they needed a protective status. They came over here because they were taking advantage of a weak leadership. So what we want, and the President has made this very clear, those that are coming to this country legally, they need to be able to contribute to the, to, to the, to the United States, not be a burden on the taxpayers. And so we are continuing looking at our, our temporary protective status. Those individuals that do need assistance because of the country they're in, we're always looking at, looking at them. There isn't a more generous country in the world than the United States, but we don't want people to take advantage of it. Right, but do you maintain that it is safe in Haiti to send these people back? Well, I think, like I said, Jake, this is a decision that's being made from the State Department, from myself and the president, and there's a lot of things that we look at as when we take this in consideration, it's not just one factor that plays into this.
- [52:03]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
It went on and on and on from there. He never answered the question. He went into a lot of stereotypes about any non white immigrant is coming in and being on welfare, which, as you point out, these folks are literally in places like Springfield being recruited by employers so they can work there. So these are people who work as home health aides and working in factories in Ohio like they're working. But the stereotype is, well, they're black, so they're on welfare, therefore we can. And he never said the country is safe.
- [52:33]
Gary Pierre
Well, I can answer that for him. It's not safe unequivocally, Joy. Ever since, you know, we met during the earthquake, actually, and, and I started doing some work for you and I've been to Haiti every at least six, seven times a year. I haven't been back to Haiti since 2021 because it's unsafe for me to do my job as a journalist. And so that's the reality. And, and, and I used to pride myself of being a tough guy. I could navigate anywhere. Liberia, Rwanda, the Congo, Haiti. But I can't. That's how bad it is. And it's real. And, and, and to. I'm not surprised at the Secretary of Homeland Security's comments because they're not sitting in, in good faith. And, but what I'm really saddened by again, is the Supreme Court to have the evidence in front of them. And, and also Joy, one of the judges, she adopted two Haitian children.
- [53:36]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Amy. Coney Bear. Yeah.
- [53:38]
Gary Pierre
Yes. Why? Because she felt that it was a humanitarian thing to do to bring these lovely, beautiful children here and give them a better life. And so I don't understand it. I'm just trying to, because I became an American by choice. So I believe in America and the promises of America. Right now, I'm not even sure which country in which country I'm living. And this is the country that I wanted to be. I also want to talk to answer Megan Kelly about her comments. I wish to remind her not too long ago in America, it was okay, Irish, no dog, no Irish coming here. The Irish were exporting people all over the world. If you go across Europe in North America and South America, you have Irish immigrants everywhere because there was a famine in Ireland and, and the people took them in, give them a place to call home for a better life. That's what it's all about. You didn't build anything, Megyn Kelly, by yourself. No, America was not yours. You didn't do anything. You're just trying to take credit for things that a whole lot of people, including people who work for free for 400 years under slavery, and everyone contributed to America that it is. And so your notion of telling back, go back to Haiti, you go back to Ireland.
- [55:12]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Amen. And by the way, in terms of contributing to the United States, we can thank Haiti and Toussaint Louverture and the Haitian revolution for literally 40% of the land mass of the United States because it was the Haitians who valiantly sent Napoleon Bonaparte packing with his tail between his legs back to Europe. And then he did a fire sale to the United States. He said, Thomas Jefferson, please buy this off of me. I can't be here with these people. They're killing us. And it was that revolution that caused the sale of 40% of the land mass of The United States to open
- [55:47]
Gary Pierre
up the country, westward expansion, and then the rest is history.
- [55:51]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
No Haiti, no Western U.S. the whole Western U.S. does not exist without Haiti having, you know, bled for freedom, for its own freedom.
- [56:00]
Gary Pierre
And they've also true, don't forget that Haitians fought for the US during the war.
- [56:08]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
That's correct.
- [56:09]
Gary Pierre
Yeah. It is Battle of Savannah. And and so after, after that, I
- [56:14]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
believe Crispus Attucks was Asian.
- [56:17]
Gary Pierre
Yeah. And, and, and after that experience, that's when they go, they went back to Haiti and said, hey, wait a minute, what's wrong with this picture? We were fighting for their independence and then we slaves. And so hence the Haitian revolution started.
- [56:31]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Exactly. And in addition to that, if you know, no Haiti, no New Orleans, what do you think that culture is? Everyone, you know, that creole culture, that's literally people who fled from Haiti during that time, New Orleans to Louisiana, and created the whole New Orleans culture, which is a core part of American culture. It's a jewel of the United States. You can thank Haiti for that. And can you talk before I let you go, about what was done to Haiti to punish Haitians for getting revolution? Because I think people forget this part. The reason Haiti is a failed state is because of the United States and Europe.
- [57:09]
Gary Pierre
Well, absolutely. So there was, during that time when Haiti got its independence, France and Great Britain were involved in a proxy war. They were, they had a 100 year war. They were at war constantly. So the idea was Friends was going to help the US get its independence. And then Great Britain helped Haiti. And Great Britain was supposed to be Haiti's trading partner.
- [57:37]
Rula Jibril
Right.
- [57:38]
Gary Pierre
And so the US Talked, you know, white and white. Listen, you. We can have all these black people free and be successful because not too far away we have slavery. And that's a big business. And so white solidarity. And then I said, okay, never mind. And Haiti, you're on your own. So for 65 years, the US didn't recognize Haiti as a. As a republic. The Quakers and other abolitionists in Philadelphia fought hard to get the United States government to recognize Haiti. So for 60 years, Haiti is on its own. And so I want people to understand that it's not sort of like something in our DNA. We can manage ourselves because. Because we do a good job when we're out of the country. The problem is that you have a system in place. And it's not just the foreigners that, let me say it, it's also corrupt Haitians who in collaboration with the foreigners to keep the people down. And so it's not just one. I Don't want people to think, oh, I'm blaming the Americans. We are complicit as well, but a small cadre of corrupt individual.
- [58:45]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Can you also talk about the source of these gangs? Like where what, what is the source of them? Where did they come from?
- [58:53]
Gary Pierre
That's a show on its own, but I'll try to give you a brief version of that. So for Aristide was overthrown by the US and so he returned. So he took. There was a neighborhood groups already in place, a system, sort of almost like your boy Scout kind of thing. And so he took that institution and sort of like turn them into his supporters and arm them. And then he left. So politicians on all sides started using these guys as shock troopers just whenever they needed to get something going and they were getting opposition. So they'll roll these guys out in the streets, burn and loot. So at one point these guys decided, hey. They realized, hey, I, I don't have to work for these guys. I have the guns. So this is when things fell apart because they're now they're in charge. And the politicians have all fled, most of them. And the business people have fled because now no one controls the gangs. And so you have total chaos. One thing I would ask the US is if you want to send us back, then I'll go back myself as an American citizen to my home birthland. But you need one favor. Help us fight the gangs, get rid of them, and then we got it after that. And then I'll go back fight myself. There'll be a whole bunch of Asian Americans who want to go back. Because as you mentioned, Joy, Haiti is a beautiful country. I would say it's a natural beauty and a man made disaster. The beauty is I was in Italy a couple months ago and I'm driving through the countryside and I'm saying to myself, this is Haiti. I'm looking at the same topography.
- [60:40]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Yeah, it's in the Caribbean. Think about what is beautiful is the Caribbean. It's that. And the reality is the disaster is American made. At one point, we occupied Haiti. We took all of their gold and flew it to the United States. The United States has been looting Haiti like an open ATM on the street that you're dragging the money out of, taking the resources, taking the cash, changing the government. And this is a bipartisan endeavor, punishing that country for daring to show African Americans the keys to revolution. That black Americans then participated in what I would say is the largest slave rebellion in history, which is called the Civil War. When black Americans did What Haitians had done take up arms against their oppressors and kill a whole lot of confederates on their way to freedom. Haiti is literally the blueprint for freedom for black people in the Western Hemisphere. We owe Haiti a lot. Y' all Google the Louisiana Purchase and thank a Haitian next time you see somebody that is at risk of deportation because Haiti helped build our freedom. And the last thing I'll say before I let Gary go, and I'm going to say it so that he's. Because he's not much nicer than me. Haitians, Megan, I'm saying this to you directly, have done more to build this country than you and your family ever did. End of story. They are more important to the foundation of this country than you. You go back to Ireland, as Gary said, because we don't want you in this country. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk, Gary. Pierre. Pierre, come back anytime. My brother. Thank you so much.
- [62:07]
Gary Pierre
Thank you, Joy, it was a pleasure being here. Good seeing you.
- [62:10]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Thank you. Great to see you, too. We're gonna have Gary back on. Gary is the best reporter when it comes to all things Haiti. He's the premier reporter when it comes to what's happening on the island, the history of the island, and. And that's it. So, yeah, thank a Haitian for the whole Louisiana Purchase, okay? You wouldn't have, like, half the west of the country wouldn't be here without them, without Megan's people, nothing would be different. If you took Megan's family, and they were. And they were never in the United States, baby, nothing would change. They've given nothing, done nothing to build the country. The Haitian has done much, much more. All right, welcome to hour two on the joy. Reacher, we got it. We got. We got to tell the truth, right? We got to tell the truth and shame the devil. And she actually might be the devil. Let's talk about this just one moment before we get to our hour two stuff, I want to play one more clip because this kind of crystallizes the vibe on the right right now. This is Tom Emmer, who is a congressman from Minnesota. Hard to believe he's Minnesota, he's not Minnesota. Nice. He's the other kind of Minnesota. Let's just play that real quick before we hit our next ad break.
- [63:13]
Jason
Founders who were Christian, they created a Christian based nation. And I come from the People's Republic of Minnesota that has been so mismanaged by criminals. They're criminals. They. They lie, they cheat, and they steal. And by the way, they let immigrants who come to this country not wanting to assimilate, lie, cheat and steal from them our money. Guess what? There is nothing racist about calling out a criminal. So when I say that. It's time, it's time, I mean, this is what they do in the great state of Minnesota. You know, our culture, that Scandinavian culture. By the way, I better make it clear before I go any farther. Minnesotans. Are there any here? Ah, good. Then let me just say. Okay, well, born you're wearing that hat, you must be from northern Minnesota. The Iron Range. No, probably closer to Iowa. No, I'm going to leave that alone. I, the reason I bring it up is because I tell people regularly, Minnesota did not create passive aggressive behavior, but we did perfect it.
- [64:25]
Joy Reid
Okay?
- [64:27]
Jason
And I happen to be more on the aggressive, aggressive side, which doesn't always work in Minnesota, as Ralph will tell you. You know, sometimes Minnesotans are so afraid that you're going to call us a racist, you're going to call us an Islamophobe, you're going to call us some name that we just don't want to get into that fight. You know what? I, I, I would argue that I never did care. But I am done being careful, even the least bit careful. And I, I don't, I don't really care where you come from, but if you come to this great country, you have to understand you're coming here to, to be an American. We, we celebrate everyone's culture. We're happy with that. As long as you are an American, celebrate your culture, I don't care. Italian, Polish, you know, Somali, okay, But they don't assimilate. And if they don't assimilate, then they should go the hell back to where they came from.
- [65:39]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
First of all, the cheers gave it clan rally vibes. And second of all, Tom Emmer, number one, this is not a Christian nation. You absolute pick up a book and learn U.S. history. The people who created the country were deists who did not believe that God took personal interest in the actions of human beings, had no interest whatsoever in their belief system, and they deliberately created a country that is not a Christian nation at all. And your Norwegian brethren, again, what does it mean, be American? What does that actually mean? Do you mean what was going on at the Great American State Fair? Is that what you want people to assimilate into? Because without the people of color in this country, you've got no jazz, you've got no blues, you've got no Mexican food, really, without white ethnics, you've got no spaghetti and meatballs. This entire country was created by people of all ethnicities around the world. Take the ethnic people out and there's literally no American culture. We're not baby Europe. We're not. If you want to be in a Norwegian environment, go to Norway. Just move your ass back to Norway. If you want to be in an all white community with an all white culture that's got no influence from black people. You don't like black people, sir, you can't have American culture without black people, without African Americans, without black folks, without Haitians, without Caribbeans, without African Americans, without people of color. This is a bland baby Europe with no culture whatsoever. This country's culture was literally built by the amalgamation of multiple people. Exactly. No spice. You want a wonder bred culture? Go to the Great American State Fair because you will find that there a cultureless, flat, boring ass fair with no people to show up because there's nothing to see, nothing to listen to, no music to listen to that's any good. No Korean barbecue. Exactly. No Mexican. You can't have any of it. And if you don't like those things, dude, just go to Norway. We won't miss you. All right, welcome OR two. I already welcomed you to hour two of the Joy Reid show. And I want to note. Let me make sure I found out where we are. That we are brought to you tonight by our friends at Zebiotics. Celebrations don't start with the clinking of glasses. They start with Zbiotics Pre alcohol, a probiotic you take before your first drink so you can enjoy the night and wake up.
- [67:57]
Isosa Osa
Ready?
- [67:57]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Zbiotics Pre alcohol. The science behind your next great morning. Now listen, one of the things that this weekend we went out and had a great time hanging out. It was Pride Week. Where's my flag? Winnie took my Pride flag. She took it from me and I went back. Give it back. We went out this weekend. We had a really great time. You know, we did the jump and wave. We did the dancing wave. Had a really great time at some Pride events and also a great birthday party and a drag show, which was fabulous.
- [68:24]
Joy Reid
We.
- [68:24]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
But the first drink that I had this weekend before I started my sojourn into party land, which is maybe not young enough to do anymore. Had my Zebiotics. And you know why? Because I knew I had to work today. I had to get up today. I had to be fully functional. And if you're going to live a lifestyle that is 10 years younger than your actual age, you need to make sure that you're taking your Zebiotic so that you can be Bright and bright eyed and bushy tailed for work the next day. And here's how it works. Zebiotics is a pre alcohol probiotic drink. It's the world's first genetically engineered probiotic or prebiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. So how it works, as I've explained before, is, you know when you drink there is this enzyme that forms in your gut that is actually the thing that makes you feel like crap the next morning. But the prebiotic in Zbiotics gets in there, coats your stomach to prevent that horrible little buggy boo from making you feel horrible. That enzyme, it breaks it down and then it makes it so that you feel great the next morning. So every time that I have a pre alcohol before drinks the next morning I feel great. I'm able to come in here and do the Joy retro. It's very important. I first tried it back during New Year's Eve and I am literally a convert. I try to make sure there's water in my bag everywhere I go because I want to have a security or a cocktail. I want to make sure I feel great. So between weddings, US Open, lots of screaming today for Brazil and the first real lake weekend, lots of people going to the lake and doing a lot of fun things. Make sure that you're drinking pre alcohol to stay ahead of the game and make sure that you're making the most of your weekend and your month and you're fun. So if you want to try it, go to zbiotics.com zbiotics.com joy use the code joy at checkout you get 15% off. Zebiotics.com joy use the code for 15% off. I want to note that our show is also brought to you by our friends at Fast Growing Trees. So Fast Growing Trees, which is also one of our other favorite, favorite favorites because they make beautiful things that they deliver in in the easiest way possible to make sure that your plants and trees that are beautifying your yard arrive all grown with care. They arrive in great condition and they don't have to start from a little baby, but they actually can be a little bit more full grown so that you can have the beauty sooner. You don't have to wait for a whole full season. They work great for your climate, your space, your lifestyle. You go on the website, you put in your zip code, they tell you what are the greatest kind of plants for your climate, for where you live, so they're going to grow and be beautiful. They arrive boxed up beautifully and ready to Put right into the ground and they look fabulous, fabulous and gorgeous. And you get ongoing support from plant experts to make sure that you can keep your plants beautiful and your trees better than what you're going to get at any kind of home goods store. Don't go to the home store. Go to fastgrowingtrees.com because it's literally the way that Jason and I, we have these beautiful plants, trees in the backyard that have a beautiful blushy color blossom on them and they are gorgeous and they are already on their way to being fully beautiful because the fast growing trees gets them to you and in that condition. So ours are cherry blossom trees because, you know, of course you gotta have the cherry blossoms. We love them. So you don't have to drive around. Don't go to nurseries or big garden centers. No need to do that. These are grown with expert care and they're gorgeous and beautiful. Deliver right to your door. Over 1600 varieties of trees and plants right for you right now. They have great deals on summer planting essentials, up to half off on select plants. And listeners to the Joy Reid show get 20% off your first purchase when using the code Joy at checkout. That's additional 20% off. Better plants and better growing and fast growingtrees.com using the code joy at checkout. Fast growing trees.com with the code joy. It's perfect time to plant. It's not getting any more summary, so this is a great time to do it. The offer is available for a limited time. Terms and conditions apply. So I would jump right into it. Let's do a couple more headlines as we remind you guys to please hit like and subscribe. Make sure that you're hitting share, hit the little bell thing which allow you to share but also to be notified whenever we go live. So you want to do that. Just a couple of quick headlines before we get to our next segment. The BBC is turning the tails on Donald Trump. He tried to sue them for a report that they did on his January 6th insurrection speech, a speech he did at the Ellipse. And they're like, okay, ma', am, you want to sue us? We want your diaries. We want to know what you were writing, what you were saying, everything that you were saying in advance of that insurrection. So you want, you want to, you want to play with us? Discovery is a bitch. So that is happening right now. Trump is also facing a lawsuit over the Kennedy Center. There was a group that actually was agreeing to perform when it was the Kennedy center, but when Trump slapped his name on it. They were like, we ain't performing. And so they're now suing him. So Trump is facing a lawsuit over the Kennedy center as well, so his agonies are not done there as well. Before we get to a couple of other things, I just wanted to play you this clip of one of my new favorite. I mean, he's been around for a while. He's not new, but one of my favorite politicians who's sort of emerging as we start thinking about what kind of leadership we want in the country is John Ossoff. He's running for reelection in Georgia, but I don't know, I kind of feel like he's got some presidential vibes. Let's play this clip from John Ossoff, please.
- [73:25]
Jason
250 years on, what the founders would see if they visited us today.
- [73:31]
Joy Reid
Today.
- [73:32]
Jason
But wait. They would see that slavery had been abolished. They would see that Americans without land and then women's, and then the descendants of slaves had secured voting rights. They would see that our science and discovery propelled human knowledge to unimaginable heights and that those 13 colonies had grown into a superpower that defeated the Nazis and communism. They'd see a pluralist democracy, people of all colors, descended from every point on earth, stitched together out of many nations into one. But they'd also see a nation that at the height of its wealth and power, fell into the very traps they most feared, devoured itself in bitter conflict between warring factions captured by special interests. And they'd see a faithless president exploiting this rot to pursue the absolute power they overthrew, a president who's embarked on this unmistakable project not to lead us, but to rule us. And here we are in Georgia, where he sent spies and agents to seize our ballots. Did you see that? Savannah? Now, why Georgia? Why Fulton County? I submit to you it's because the fact that black voters were instrumental to his defeat might be even more offensive to this committed racist than defeated feed itself. And now, here in Georgia, he wants to send an election denier to the U.S. senate. Mike Collins, who's pro war and pro tariff and pro cutting your health care. He proudly defends the violent mob that sacked the Capitol on January 6th to throw out your votes and install a defeated president.
- [75:42]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
That guy, I don't know. He's given me the. He's giving me the presidential vibes. I don't know how you guys feel about that. We have a poll. Winsome. I think we have a poll question. Do you want to. You want to tell me the poll? Because you know, I can't find it. Figure out where to find it. But we're going to do the poll question. I know we did a poll question, and we will definitely tell you what the answers to that are shortly. But let's move into our next segment because this one is kind of tough when you talk about violating kind of founding principles. It's not just the United States. That definitely feels like it's on a very ugly track. Obviously, Israel is another one of those countries that I think, in theory, people thought of it as a country that was founded sort of as a salvation for people in Europe who were refugees, Jewish refugees from around the world. But it's turned into something entirely different. And it was happening before October 7, 2023, but it's just been accelerated by the response to the Hamas breakout from Gaza in which they killed about 300 police, about 800 civilians, and kidnapped about 200 people. And the response to that has been 20,000 plus children dead, far more than that. And just absolute, utter devastation of Gaza and of human beings there. More than 60,000 people dead that we know of, and a really particular impact on children. We played this clip before, but I just want to play it again. This is the United nations formally designating and finding that Israel has deliberately targeted children in its war on Gaza. Take a listen.
- [77:26]
Jason
Yeah.
- [77:26]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
So I can only speak legally.
- [77:30]
Jason
There is no doubt whatsoever.
- [77:33]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
There can be no doubt in anyone
- [77:35]
Jason
who reads today's report
- [77:38]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
that every international legal norm has been violated by the
- [77:43]
Jason
actions of the Israeli authorities towards Palestinian
- [77:47]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
children,
- [77:49]
Gary Pierre
and they need to be held accountable.
- [77:52]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
When we had the oral hearings and doctors participating, they told us that many
- [77:57]
Jason
of the amputations they had to carry
- [77:58]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
out on babies and very young children were without anesthesia, without painkillers. You can imagine the agony those children went through.
- [78:07]
Jason
They also told us they have not
- [78:09]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
seen the destruction of pediatric and neonatal facilities on this scale. Out of the six hospitals, five were completely destroyed by the Israeli Defense Forces. It's devastating. The actual full clip, which I think. I think we should put it up on the channel. It's horrible. It's hard to listen to, but I think it's important to listen to. I also would like to put up John Ossoff's whole speech because it was really good. And those who are asking in the chat, is he an APAC baby? He is not. He does not take any PAC money at all, including APAC PAC money. So, no, Ossoff is not one of those politicians who's taken the APEC cash or really any Corporate interest cash. He's also one of the few who has said that there should be no PAC money in American politics. He's actually written a bill that he would like to get forward a couple bills. One to stop US Politicians from trading on the stock market and the other would be to end to reverse Citizens United. So if you want a guy going forward who is on the right side of history and who's a brilliant speaker on an Obama level and who is not down with the AIPAC cash, Jon Ossoff would be your guy. The poll tonight was, did you know the history between Haiti and the US before today? 59% said, I sure did and 41% said no. But I'm learning it now. So thank you to everybody who voted and we can update that. Thank you, Winston. By the end of the show. But yeah, this whole designation by the United nations is just another kind of touchpoint in what has been an ongoing fight to hold Israel accountable for what they have done in the region. And thus far, I have to say, the United nations has been quite ineffective, if we're being honest, at trying to do that. There hasn't been really any accountability at all. And that is not just for the Israelis, but also for the United States, which is funding this whole operation. And what this now appears to be is a deliberate war against children. We're talking about record numbers of children who've had limbs amputated, children who are being found with gunshots to the head, meaning they were deliberately executed. And just an ethos that appears to say that killing off all the children is a way to ensure that there's never a resistance from the Palestinian people and that that Palestinian resistance is cut off for the future by killing the children. And it appears now that that is deliberate. I will note that I believe Itamar Ben GVIR is on his way to the United States. He should be in prison in the Hague, but he can come and go freely to the United States because we don't stop war criminals from coming here if Donald Trump likes them. I'll play one more sound bite before we bring our guest on. And this was a Palestinian minister at the United nations just breaking down, talking about what is happening to his, the children of his community.
- [81:29]
Joy Reid
Excuse me, Mr. President. I have grandchildren.
- [81:34]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
I know what they mean to their families.
- [81:39]
Jason
And to see the situation of the Palestinians without us having hearts to do
- [81:44]
Gary Pierre
something is beyond the ability of any normal human being to tolerate.
- [81:51]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And joining me now is our friend, award winning journalist, international best selling author and forum foreign policy analyst, Rula Jibril. Rula, my dear, thank you so much for being here. It's always a pleasure, even under these horrific circumstances. And I guess sort of the biggest question is, what does this new designation by the United nations that Israel is deliberately targeting and killing children, does it make any difference? Does it change anything? And you're muted.
- [82:22]
Rula Jibril
Good to see you, Joy, and thank you for doing this. The report came out, I believe, four days ago, and you are one of the few journalists that is discussing it, and that says everything you need to know about Western media. It is heartbreaking. I read it all, I must say. I knew a lot of these situations. I knew a lot of the testimonies. They talk about an orphanage that I was involved with. It's called Al Amal Orphanage that was bombed with orphans there, hundreds of orphans. Until now, we never been able to recover the bodies. What will it do for the West? Let me start by saying for the global south, it's confirming what we already knew. It's telling us what doctors, international doctors told us, what witnesses have been telling us for the last three years, and what we've seen with our own eyes. But above all, it's telling us something that I think the west continue to ignore, which is the overwhelming majority of the evidence is provided by the Israelis themselves, by the Israeli soldiers who brag about the use of drones to target children, to kill, literally children. If you go to any of their websites or any of their telegram channels, they deliberately talk about it, they write about it, they brag about it, and they brag about the impunity. What that says about the west is it's another validation and confirmation that the United States of America is complicit as co sponsor of this genocide of the Palestinians, including and especially the targeting of Palestinian children. The overwhelming majority of the weapons provided to Israel, including drones to target these children, are provided by the United States. The bullets, the tanks, the helicopters, the F16, the Apache 35, the everything that Israel has come predominantly from the United States. So this country where you and I live is a country that is currently bankrolling, arming, and directly complicit in the genocide of the Palestinian people.
- [84:49]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And it feels like, as you said, the Western media has kind of moved on, even though. And what we're showing there in the screen is the blowing up of a school, colleges, universities, hospitals. There's no limitation to the destruction civilian infrastructure. None of it matters. And yet we're seeing the mainstream media kind of move on, Right? And it just. It doesn't seem to be Breaking through.
- [85:23]
Rula Jibril
Well, it's. There always been an attempt to suppress any information, exactly like Trump trying to suppress the vote. The media has been used in the United States as an iron dome, literally an iron dome to protect the image of Israel. And that's why Netanyahu himself, you know, the wanted war criminal, said that he won every battle except one, the one on social media. That's why people like you are very dangerous. That when they talk about the enemy, you know, of the people, you are for, in their eyes, actually a guardian of the truth. And in their eyes, you are not willing to battle their narrative and read on air, in your platforms what the Israeli soldiers are doing. If I may, Joy, there's three element of the report that really was especially painful. We knew about them, but there's one element where there is this drone hover over a tent where this mother is breastfeeding a baby, and the drone come down and shoot the baby in the head twice. The. The mother is breastfeeding a baby. By the way, the drone has a camera, and the camera can see exactly who is there. And we know this because actually the soldiers confirmed that in a testimony. One of the soldiers said, actually for a documentary that was released in Israel, and he said the following. The most dehumanizing weapon in this war is the drones. You can be sitting in your home without a helmet, scratching, excuse my language, your balls, and you can shoot somebody in the head from far away, and it feels like a game. Another soldier talked about feeling like a Nazi. Okay, these are the testimonies of the soldiers. There's another testimony of another girl sitting in a classroom inside a tent together with 15 girls, studying. They were studying English. They were repeating basically words in English. And in that moment, a drone hovered that tent. They saw there's tons of people, and the girl was standing up and reading in English. And that's when she was shot in the head and in the neck. She bled to death because there's no hospital. Israel destroyed every hospital, 36 hospitals in Gaza. There's another story of another child that was going to pick up with his father, basically, some food at some of the distribution sites. And this is when they shot him in the legs and then in the head. His other brother tried to save him. The brother, who's a teenager, was shot again. The father tried to recover the bodies, and he was unable because they kept shooting on him. The commission of inquiry discovered that they were shot by a sniper who was positioned 200 meters away from them. You know, a sniper can shoot a thousand Meter away. But the fact that the proximity was so close, it tells you everything about the fact that they are deliberately destroying the future of Palestinians by destroying their offspring. They deliberately targeting. And this is not a new thing. I remember Joy, in 2014, a former minister of justice, justice of Israel, her name is Ayala Sheked. She advocated publicly to shoot the mothers and the children because the mother would be pregnant and will be the one raising snakes. She called Palestinian children snakes. That was 2014. The language that's being used against Palestinian children is the language that is regularly used for the last, I would say, 20 years is what led us to what we're seeing today. The report talks about rape of Palestinian children. When they talk about Israel being a democracy, the people need to remember that Israel is the only country on earth that has military courts where they basically persecute and judge Palestinian children. Military court for Palestinian children that can begin from 8, 7 to 8, 16 or 17. And inside military jails or military bases that transformed into basically prisons. These Palestinian children, according to this report, have been raped, have been sexually assaulted and raped. We know this for a fact, and this didn't happen in Gaza only and didn't start with October 7th. We know this because Josh Paul from the State Department testified during an interview at CNN that the U.S. state Department has been receiving reports, not from Gaza and even not from the occupied west bank, from East Jerusalem, where there's no Hamas and no Palestinian Authority. And they received a case of a child who was 13 years old who was raped at a torture center called Almaskobiyeh. I know that torture center very well, Joy, because I grew up three blocks from that torture center. I know that torture center because every child in my neighborhood was arrested at certain point, and everybody was sexually molested at a certain point. So Israel has been using rape as a weapon of war for decades. This is not a new thing. They brag about it and they've been talking about it specifically of how to break Palestinian families and society. And now rape, starvation, the killing of children is used as a genocidal tactic to cancel, to erase the Palestinian people.
- [91:36]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Listening to this, it's chilling to listen to it and then to think that not only is the United nations issuing the reports, which I think is a good thing, but they seem so powerless to actually do anything about it because now Israel has taken the same strategy and applied it to South Lebanon and the same thing is happening. Schools, hospitals, nursery schools, bakeries, private homes, all being wiped off the map. Whole villages, historic villages. Yes, wiped off. It's Happening again. Why can't the UN actually do anything about this?
- [92:10]
Rula Jibril
Because the United Nation is paralyzed by the United States, the superpower that decided that impunity is the name of the game. I remember something that I saw recently where Mike Huckabee, the Zionist ambassador of the United States, talking to a group of Israelis and a soldier, stood up and he said, we're fighting in Gaza. We're fighting in Lebanon. We need your government to guarantee that the icc, the International Criminal Court, and the International Court of Justice will not come after us. And Mike Hackabee publicly stated, we're taking care of it. You know how they're taking care of it, Joy. They are sanctioning judges. They are literally threatening judges. The ICC prosecutor, Karim Khan recently said he received a letter from 12 US senators, including Lindsey Graham, and he was told, we will come after you and your families. Francesca Albanese, the UN Rapporteurs was not only sanctions, she is literally threatened. She's cut off of her bank accounts or anything, as if she was Russia. Okay? That's how we treat Russia for invading and occupying Ukraine. So you're using the tools to sanction the judges who are investigating war crimes and crimes against humanity. And this is not a recent thing. This kind of mafia mentality has been used for decades. You know the head of the Mossad, Yossi Cohen, the former head of the Mossad, who's a thug, literally a criminal and a thug, and recently said that they are spying on everybody that buy their equipment. Meaning if you buy any Israeli tool, just make sure, Just be sure that they will be putting a chip or something and spying on you. So he said recently that this is what they do. They blackmail and spy on governments and officials. There was this amazing African woman. She was the head of the International Criminal Court. Her name is Fatih bin Suta. She recently also gave an interview and she said that he threatened her and her family said, you need to drop this investigation. I don't want anything bad to happen to you and your family. You know who does this? Putin. You know who did this in the past? Mussolini. You know who does this? The Mafia. Casa Nostra. Again, the United States of America, the leader of the free world is literally acting as a mafia state to shield a genocidal state. And then they are surprised that after the younger generation learn all of these facts, they're surprised that somebody like Mamdani or these new elected leader are elected in the United States. People are disgusted by people like Chuck Schumer who said Palestinians don't want peace because they don't believe in the Torah. Not habibi. We believe in the Torah. But also we believe in human rights and dignity and not killing children. And we believe our own eyes. And also I don't believe in ethno supremacist state. I don't believe that in the United States, and I don't believe that anywhere else, because this will lead to a purge, to a genocide, whether directly or indirectly. One of the things that I cannot believe, that I have to Repeat this in 2026, genocide overseas breed fascism at home. One of the reasons why we have this fascist resurgence in the United States and in the west is directly connected to Israel action in the occupied Palestinian territories. Palestinian children, the Palestinians, my family included, we are the canary in the coal mines. That violence will not stop there. That violence, we saw it in Minneapolis. And that violence will come home. And you might not care about Palestinians, you might not care about children, but I hope you care. I hope you care about universal international law, because this will protect all of us. None of us will be safe if this continue. No human being, black or white or Latino or Christian, no one will be safe under a Zionist, Jewish supremacist. Epstein affiliate administration.
- [96:56]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Rula Jabril, you speak so eloquently, and I know this is personal, personal to you. This is about your family. But just also, as a brilliant journalist, we just appreciate you being willing to endure having to go through these reports that have to be so painful for you personally. And I know you, sister, that this is your heart on your sleeve every time that you're speaking about what's happening in Palestine. And we hear you, we feel you, we support you. And anything that we can do to try to urge our government to support stop this madness, we are going to do. We'll use our votes, we'll use our feet, we'll use our, you know, letters. Whatever we have to do, we're going to do it. I appreciate you, sister.
- [97:37]
Rula Jibril
Thank you. Thank you, Joy. And thank you for speaking also truth to power, to the Democratic Party, because this didn't start with Trump. We need to wake up that this is not about left versus right. This is, you know, this is about all of us. Thank you.
- [97:53]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
This is about good and evil.
- [97:55]
Rula Jibril
Yes. Yes.
- [97:56]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Period. It's not left right at all. Thank you, Rula.
- [97:59]
Rula Jibril
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
- [98:01]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Thank you, my friend. It's so hard. I hate seeing people cry. It makes me cry. But Rula is absolutely right. We can only stop this if we start to understand that everything that happens to everyone happens to us. Everything that happens to Palestinians happens to us. Everything that happens to African American Americans will happen to all of us. Everything that happens to Caribbean Americans and Haitian Americans and Asian Americans, anything that happens to LGBTQ folks, it will always happen to you. Everything that happens to everyone happens to all of us. Because evil people experiment on people they think are weak and friendless so that they can do their evil to you. And eventually it will come to each and every one of you whether or not you care about Palestinians and whether or not you care about the Middle East. Trust me, they're experimenting on them so that they can feel free to do it to you eventually. That is how fascism and autocracy work. All right, we are going to take a hell of a turn here because we could not bring you Roulette Abril's powerful testimony about what is in that UN report, which I urge everyone to read and to listen to the presentation, which we are going to post on the channel so you can watch it. It's a hard watch, but you should watch it. We couldn't do it without our wonderful sponsors and one of our favorites. They already came up in the chat. I'm like, jason, how did they already come up in the chat? Yeah, you know, it is these people, the mosh bars. Yes. I have them. They're in my hot little hands. They're in my custody. No one is getting these out of my hands today, y'. All. Fam, these are mine. I just want to note that I'm designating that. The cookie dough crunch, this is mine. This peanut butter chocolate crunch, also mine. And keeping them in my hands and in my custody has been a challenge. Oh, you see? You see how they do me? Yeah, we love Moss bars. I'd love them if I could actually get one. And, you know, you are what you eat. We all say that. Well, apparently, I am nothing because I can't eat any. Because every time I have a mosh bar, they get confiscated away from me. You may have heard about mosh from my travails trying to get my hands on a mosh bar. Jason claims he's never tasted them. I don't believe him. You've also heard about them on Shark Tank or on Oprah's Favorite Things. They were created founded by Maria Shriver and her son Patrick Schwarzenegger, with the mission to spark a conversation about brain health through food, education and research. After Maria's father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, they set out to create something bigger than just eight. Eight or ordinary protein bar. Mosh protein Bars are made with ingredients that support brain and body health. They're made with things like ashwagandha Lion's Mane Omega 3s plus. Mosh is the first and only food brand boosted with Cognizant, which is a premium form of citrocholine, which is a cute little thing that helps support focus, memory, and mental clarity. So that means the people who are eating my mosh bars know what they're doing. They taste great, obviously, because everybody keeps taking mine. Chocolate chip. Cookie delicious Hazelnut chocolate chip. Well, I've got to see if there's any. Can I find some of those? No one's going to give them to me anyway. Peanut chocolate chip. You get it. You can now save on your own mosh bars, which you will hopefully hide from your family members while making your wellness effort effortless. You can get 25% off plus free shipping on your first 15 count variety pack and then 20% for life on your monthly subscription. You can swap flavors anytime. You can switch them out. Get your new ones, try something new. Your favorite functional fuel is delivered directly to your door. So you never run out. If you're not me, everyone else, yours won't run out. Mine, it's a problem. Mosh donates a portion of the proceeds from every single order to the women's Alzheimer's movement because two thirds of Alzheimer's patients are women. And Mosh is working to close that gap. It's more than just a protein bar. It's brain fueled with a purpose. And also they are one of our wonderful sponsors that sponsor our the Joy Reid Show Live. So we, we absolutely love our friends at Mosh. If you'd like to try it, find your favorites, build your box, keep things fresh with a variety pack. Head to moshlife.com reid subscribe today to get 25 off your first variety pack. 20 off your first monthly subscription with code REID READ. That's 25% off your first pack. 20 off your subscription of brain boosting bars delivered right to your door. Start building brain health every day with Mosh bars. Thank you, Mosh. We appreciate you for supporting this program, even if I never came to have any. It's just dastardly what happens to me. You see how they do me, y'?
- [102:24]
Jason
All?
- [102:24]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
It's just so unfair. Let's take a turn and let's talk about AI. Let's play this. This is a piece from Britain's Channel 4 about the question of prejudice in tech. Take a listen.
- [102:39]
Jason
Has been researching prejudice in tech and her work is on show in this new exhibition at London's publisher.
- [102:47]
Isosa Osa
Yes. So this is the experience I had that kind of started it all. I was a grad student at MIT working on a project that used face detection and you saw it worked well on my friend's face. When it came to my face, it didn't work so well until I put on, yes, the white mask.
- [103:04]
Jason
Right.
- [103:04]
Joy Reid
And so it worked perfectly.
- [103:06]
Isosa Osa
So here you see different examples of iconic women being mislabeled. So this is Serena Williams on the COVID of Wired saying the future needs to be more diverse and more inclusive. And then we have faith Chinese companies labeling her male. And here we have Michelle Obama.
- [103:27]
Jason
Joy realized the problem had the potential to cause serious harm.
- [103:32]
Isosa Osa
I read another report that showed with self driving cars, when they tested potential pedestrian tracking, it was less accurate on darker skinned individuals than lighter skinned individuals.
- [103:42]
Jason
Joy believes this bias is because of the lack of diversity in the data used in teaching AI to make distinctions.
- [103:50]
Isosa Osa
As I started looking at the data sets, I learned that for some of the largest data sets that have been very consequential for the field, they were majority men and majority lighter skinned individuals or white individuals. So I call this pale mail data. And if you have a lot of pale mail data, you're destined to fail the rest of the world. Who I call the under sampled majority people and women of color because they're not even included. And right now we have to make sure we prioritize inclusion and we prioritize ethics.
- [104:21]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
I like her name, but also her message. Joining me now is Isosa osa, visionary leader and strategist, committed to building digital power, safety and resilience for black organizations. She's the founder and CEO of Onyx Impact, but also the creator of a brand new AI tool that is looking to push back against what really does feel like a very white centric AI creation sort of system. And it's called Aisha, which is a cute name. Isosa OSA joins me now. Hello my friend.
- [104:52]
Isosa Osa
Hello. Hello. So happy to be here today.
- [104:55]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Thank you for being here. So before we get to Aisha, let's talk about this whole idea of. I think that AI is controversial in many ways. There's a lot of pushback against the whole AI phenomenon by younger people, including some of the younger people who live with me who are very anti AI because they see it as harmful to the environment. They see it as racist because it's built on a foundation of anti blackness and all of the content of it that it's drawing from, it's very not black. What do you make of the sort of status of AI among the average person right now.
- [105:32]
Isosa Osa
So I would say that that skepticism, that distrust is earned, especially in particularly by the black community on X Impact. We are a nonprofit and the sole owner of AISHA AI. Our mission is to amplify black voices and protect black communities in an era of disinformation. And so we spent years researching and creating tools to help black communities navigate these. These harms. And AISHA is a product of that. That work built from the ground up. And to your point, we know that AI is already shaping. If we did nothing today, AI is already fundamentally shaping our reality. It is determining the news we see. It is determining who gets hired. It is determining our health care. Right? And so we started this project because the most powerful information tool in a generation, AI, was being handed to black communities in a way, in a form that actively harmed them. Right? And we've decided that was unacceptable. And so we center black news sources. We center black history by design. And to your point, we prioritize privacy, environmental responsibility, and making sure that we are being responsible as it relates to AGI and the workforce and jobs.
- [107:04]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
So let's go through each of those pieces, because I think one of them, as you said, it's the sourcing. So people who use ChatGPT will note that if you say, make me a businessman, you know, make me a graphic with a businessman, it'll generally give you a white face. Right. If you say, make me a graphic with an athlete, maybe it'll give you somebody black. But it's like, it's very much sourced on information that doesn't really center people of color. Right. And so is that something you all have been able to solve with this version of AI with aisha?
- [107:35]
Isosa Osa
Yeah. So we have our AI team, our AI engineers, our Black Ledger AI engineering team has spent over a year, right. Building a local proprietary model from the ground up that from its beginning was centering. You need to make sure you've got a decent. A certain level of respect for people at every point in time. You need to make sure that you understand black history, that you understand black news. Right? We don't want. We never want. These other AI models have learned what it is, what it means to be black from the Internet. Like that is terrifying, right?
- [108:13]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
It's true. And they're only as smart as what the. As the information they're drawing from, Right? Like, if they're getting their information from, like you said, from, you know, the same place that X Twitter is getting it, then it's Like a bad source.
- [108:27]
Isosa Osa
It's a bad source, Right. That's why, you know, Reddit has been introduced to the world so much, even more so than it already was because it's such a massive engine for so many of these, of these large language models. Aisha, we built her differently from the very, very beginning and we made sure that one, Aisha does not generate images or video. We think that is a waste of resources and energy. Right, right. And two, if you were to ask Aisha a question like what's happening in the economy, right. She's gonna give you an answer, but she's also going to make sure you know what's happening with black folks in the economy as well. Right. Without you having to ask. Right. We're centering black folks in our model and just like the current models are centering white folks. Right. There's no few fallacies are larger, more aggressive and significant than AI is somehow neutral. Right. That is absolutely false. We know that AI is a direct product and shaped by the priorities, by the blood blind spots, by the, the cultural defaults of the people that make that, make it just like any other technology. Right. And so we've got to be cognizant of that when we, when we choose what we work with.
- [110:05]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
So what about this con? I want two other things. One is the environmental impact of AI. There's a lot of concern about data centers where everyone is becoming a not in my backyard, which is legit because they, they destroy the water, they eat up a lot of the resources, they make your electricity bills go through the roof. How is Aisha and how is Onyx Impact responding to the environmental concerns about AI?
- [110:27]
Isosa Osa
100% on environmental awareness, if you will. Aisha's proprietary local model runs on data centers located in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. And we chose these facilities specifically because they draw from some of the cleanest energy grids in all of North America. Right. The power grids return water to their source after passing through turbines. So that means little to no water is lost to supply Ayesha's infrastructure. And our server provider Cantabo is
- [111:07]
Rula Jibril
a
- [111:08]
Isosa Osa
provider who holds a 100% certified green energy procurement status, operates under a host of different pacs and science based target initiatives and climate neutral data packs in Europe. And so we've been again intentional from the very beginning about what the impact of AISHA would be and especially given, especially given the harms that AI has had on the black community.
- [111:41]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And thank you for saying that because I think that's one of the really important things is that Aisha won't be coming to your neighborhood, y', all, and trying to build a data center in your backyard because that is the thing that people are afraid of. What about the question of, you know, AI is now very much associated, at least with all the artists I know, including my own daughter, with theft, with the idea that people's proprietary, particularly artists, you know, artists and writers have been, have really felt that AI has been used to steal basically their original creations and then manipulate them for the profit of a small group of people. How do you respond to that?
- [112:16]
Isosa Osa
So at Onyx Impact, we have no interest whatsoever in taking folks jobs and replacing folks work. We are fundamentally against AGI, which is, you know, this mad race that every large language model is after to recreate the human brain. Right. We believe that to be unethical and immoral. And so what we set out to do is create a digital assistant for folks 18 that prioritizes black news, black sources and black history and nothing more and nothing less. This is not going to. Aisha is not going to build songs for you. Aisha is not going to generate images or videos for you. Aisha is meant to be, at its core an Assistant for Honestly, 90% of what folks use AI for. We've made sure that our sources are vetted, that they prioritize black news. If you go to our home feed, right, you'll be getting nonstop black news coverage. And we don't summarize those articles, right. If you click on them, you go straight to that black news site. They get the revenue, they get the tracking information, right. They get more exposure. Right? And that was extremely important. And so not only is it prioritized in the, in the answers and sourced in those answers, but it is prioritized on the, on the, on the home feed. And since the very beginning, you go to Aisha, you type your state in. If you can do, if you do nothing else, type your state in, right? And she will give you a list of black news sources to follow and subscribe to right then. Right. And I think if you, if you want to use Aisha for one thing and nothing else, I want would, I would recommend that.
- [114:15]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
And right now Aisha, of course is a nonprofit. We know that, you know, chat GPT did start that way as well is, you know, there is, there's any chance that at some point Aisha becomes a for profit business the way that, that that one did or the way Anthropic did.
- [114:31]
Isosa Osa
Yeah, Aisha is so Onyx Impact is the sole owner of, of Aisha. AI Right. And. And Onyx Impact is dedicated fundamentally to our mission to protect black communities and amplify black voices in an era of propaganda. Right. We don't intend to change that in any way. I don't. I am not interested in the levels of complication. I started a non profit for a reason. Reason because I wanted to run a nonprofit. That has not changed. We have put out multiple tools and research in our time and we consider this to be another project of Onyx Impact.
- [115:19]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Isosa, please tell us how people who would like to try Aisha and to befriend Aisha, how can they do that? Please tell us how to do that.
- [115:28]
Isosa Osa
So Aisha is available across app stores. You can go to Aisha AI and it will will give you the direct link to sign up for and download Aisha. We highly recommend that you try her out. We are not taking anyone's privacy, anyone's data. We're not using your conversations to train our models ever or any other model. And we're not asking black communities to trust AI. We're asking black communities to own AI and understand that this is the future. Future.
- [115:59]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Amen to that folks. In the chat and I just had to quickly google to make sure I'm not speeding giving out fake news. They said that Isosa is an IDO name meaning God's gift. Whether that is true or not, you are God's gift and we appreciate that.
- [116:12]
Isosa Osa
That is 100%.
- [116:14]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Look, you see, I'm telling you, our commentators are some smart cookies. Now they will know some things.
- [116:21]
Isosa Osa
I was not expecting an ado shout out.
- [116:24]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
We love it. Doe shout out right here on the Joy Reach out. Thank you very much. Aisha AI. I have downloaded it both for my phone and for my laptop. I'm so excited to use it. This is going to be a great gift to those of us who are not big AI fans. But we trust you and see trust is everything. And so we trust what Onix Impact has contributed to the world and the good things you guys are doing. So we're going to use that trust to try your model. Thank you, my sister.
- [116:51]
Isosa Osa
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [116:53]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
Thank you very much. All right, so look, we are seeing innovation. We like to make sure that we're doing positive news as well as the scaring is caring that we do here on the show. So Isosa doing really great things. Truly a gift to the world. All right, so try, please give it a try. Tell us what you think and let us know so that we can do a follow up on that as well. All right, before we go, I gotta play you a couple of Mamdani clips. You know, we like to do our Mamdani clips because it just bothers not just the right, but the establishment Democratic Party so much. It drives them so crazy that, I don't know, I can't help it, the, the troll in me just wants to keep playing clips of it. Here is his interview with Jonathan Karl on abc. There were a lot of things that came up in the interview. Yes, they did ask him if he wants to see the Constitution amended. He just turned 35, he's only 35, so that he can now run for President because he's age wise eligible to run for President. But of course, he was not born in the United States. He was born in Uganda. So he's not eligible because he's not a birthright. He's not a birthright citizen. But he laughed and said he's not for that. But people are like, yeah, but you know what, maybe he should just run and let John Roberts sort it out. But anyway, here's one of the other questions that he asked, and this was about the Democratic Party establishments freak out over him and his preferred candidates winning those Democratic primaries. Take a listen.
- [118:14]
Jason
You can only find it in history books and we need to bring it back to the present day. And you're hearing some, not just dismissive though there's resentment. And this is from fellow Democrats who think that this could jeopardize Democratic chances in the fall. I mean, you got Josh Gottheimer, a Democratic member of Congress says, many of us believe, as do I, if you're a socialist, you are not a Democrat. And in fact they put out a manifesto today. Have you seen this thing? Sounds pretty socialist to me. It's not a communist manifesto. It's a moderate manifesto saying we are capitalist, not socialists. We believe in a growing, fair and competitive economy, entrepreneurship, ownership. I mean, this isn't a direct response. They've made it clear to what you did here on Tuesday. I mean, you know, that's great, but what's a party if not its voters? And I'm proud to sit in front of you as the mayor of our city, having received more than a million votes a little over a little less than a year ago. And, and when we're talking about these incredible congressional candidates, they won their races and they won their races with a vision of what politics should be and one that actually speaks to working people. And for a lot of people who ask themselves, what does democratic socialism mean? And you can Tell them the answer. At a theoretical level, it's the choice to extend democracy from the ballot box the rest of their lives. But in terms of what it means, over these last seven months, we've seen a city with democratic social media principles at the heart of it within our administration. And what we've delivered has been record lows when it comes to murders and shootings. So is it pragmatic democratic socialism? I think democratic socialism at the heart is pragmatic, because if we cannot deliver for working people, then what is this for? I'm not interested in writing a manifesto or, frankly, in reading one. I'm interested in delivering. And that's exactly what we've been showing.
- [119:58]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
So what the Democratic Party apparently fears is that their own base is demanding that politics produce actual change. It's actually crazy work for a political party to say, let us be ineffective, or else. The reality is these candidates are not running from the Democratic Party. They are adding themselves to the Democratic Party, and they're winning Democratic Party votes. They're winning votes from Democratic people who are registered Democrats because they're tired of the party not seeming to do anything and just wanting you to vote blue no matter who. But they don't actually do anything. And so what you're seeing is that if DSA is able to utilize the infrastructure of one of the two major parties that our country was built to house, only two major parties. I mean, the Tea Party did it with the Republicans, and then MAGA did it with Republicans. They scooped out the innards of the Republican Party and substituted it with first the Tea Party and then maga. And they used that to discipline the people who were in the party in chief to behave themselves and to behave as if they were Tea Party and maga, they did that very effectively. And so if on the left, they decided to do the same thing and to cause the party to deliver for the people in a way that feels effective. And you cannot argue that Mamdani is not effective. He's the most popular mayor probably in the country. And he and other progressive mayors, Brandon Johnson in Chicago, Brandon Scott in Baltimore, the mayor of Aurora, Colorado, who every Friday is sleeping in a homeless shelter so that he can know exactly how that shelter is being used and functioning. And then he gets up in the morning, and then he cooks breakfast for the people in that shelter because he wants to actually understand whether that shelter system is working. That's real servant leadership. There's some great mayors, and I think, I would argue in this moment, mayors are delivering the best service and the Best return on investment to voters in the country. Congress is struggling, but mayors who are in executive position are delivering and Madonna is delivering. That's why he's so popular. And so the Democratic Party should stop fearing what he's doing and start understanding how to give servant leadership. He promised he was going to lower prices. He's doing it. He promised he was going to help make housing more affordable. He's already frozen millions of people's rent, literally. He said he's going to make food cheaper. He's going to build these city owned grocery stores. People are like, bullshit. He's literally building them. He said he was going to do X. He's doing X. He said he was going to do things and he's doing them. That is not that hard. That is really not too much to ask of politicians. And he's doing it. And you know why Democrats are mad at Bondani? Because they know they're not delivering. They make promises and then they say we don't have 60 votes. And so they're mad because they can't deliver in a way that he is. But they could if they would just push away the special interests that are ordering them to not deliver. There are special interests in the Democratic Party just like in the Republican Party. And some of them have the same special interests. And these special interests don't want change. They really want stasis. They want us to put on our Democratic Party uniform and our Republican Party uniform, fight each other, hate each other's guts and continue to allow stasis to continue so that the rich can keep getting richer, the super rich can get become trillionaires, the millionaires can become billionaires, the billionaires can become trillionaires. And all the rest of us are scrapping it out in our DNR uniforms doing vote blue no matter who and vote red till I'm dead. And while we're doing that and fighting each other out on ethnic lines, on all sorts of other stupid lines that don't really mean anything. They're getting rich and laughing at us. You think they're not laughing at us? And one last thing I got to say about the whole anti immigrant thing, Elon Musk, please stop weighing in. Don't weigh in anymore on immigration. Don't say nothing else about immigration. Your brother said you two were undocumented immigrants. He said it on camera. So you as a former undocumented immigrant, just please don't weigh in anymore. Don't say nothing else about immigration. Go back to South Africa, actually. Oh, right. They don't want you back, but all the other white South Africans are coming over here, and they don't seem to have a problem getting in. All right, let's do our moment of joy so we can get out of here and let you guys have your rest of your evening. Our moment of joy, you will not be surprised, is the same guy we just played. The guy a lot of people think, including Ms. Nevateri, who just weighed in, should just go ahead and run for president. The Constitution's dead anyway, fam. John Roberts killed the Constitution and said Trump is a king, like mad King George, and he could do whatever the hell he wants except not accept late ballots that are mailed in in Mississippi. But anything else, he can do it. Maybe not fire Lisa Cook now, but he can fire her later. This man might literally get rid of birthright citizenship next week. So all bets are off. Go ahead and run for president, Mamdani, and let John Roberts sort it out later. Here's Mamdani. He's our moment of joy, jumping in the pool with the people of New York City. When you're cool enough to jump in the pool for the first day of New York City swim week but nerdy enough to keep a suit and tie on, you are. Mom, Daddy. He literally jumped. He is such a nerd that he kept the suit and tie. The tie was the piece de resistance. So he's both a nerd and also the coolest kid in town. We love it. That's our moment of joy. Thank you all for tuning in. See you guys on Wednesday, Same BET time, same BET channel. Don't forget to hit like and share. Don't forget to hit that QR code to get on the list for runmymyslushmoney.com and don't forget our wonderful collections that we've got. Big ups to Winsome and Sean, who together designed these incredible tees for both America at 250 and also the Frederick Douglass collection. They are really cute, fabulous stuff. Please feel free to get avail yourself of getting some T shirts. You can be ready for the summer. In summer, tees get 15% off. Just use the code birthday because it's our birthday all month. We're a Gemini show, meaning sometimes we're up, sometimes we're down, sometimes we're happy, sometimes we're mad. We're Geminis. This show. Scary is caring, but also ha. Moment of joy, Gemini. All right, y'. All. See you on the next the Joy Reach. I love y'. All. Peace and good night. Getting back to the basics. Grassroot level Let me dig a little deeper with the shovel Plenty can't tell the force from the trees that I'm hard to detect Like a black hole
- [126:25]
Jason
in a jar Injustice anywhere, it's a
- [126:27]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
threat to justice everywhere Let me make this clear I got a bone to pick and I'll never fear the threat
- [126:32]
Joy Reid
of power, poverty they don't want to
- [126:34]
Co-host (possibly a producer or secondary host)
talk about it they rap the party so I'm a real talk about it for show.