The Impact of Political Ideology on Violence ft. Keith Ellison & Leah Litman | The Joy Reid Show

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joy Reid Show Episode: The Impact of Political Ideology on Violence ft. Keith Ellison & Leah Litman
Release Date: June 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Joy Reid Show, host Joy-Ann Reid delves deep into the disturbing rise of political violence in the United States, examining how entrenched political ideologies contribute to these dangerous trends. Featuring insights from Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison and author Leah Litman, the discussion navigates through recent violent incidents, the role of misinformation, and the profound impact of the conservative-leaning Supreme Court.

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I. Rising Threats Against Congress

The episode opens with alarming statistics on threats targeting members of Congress. Attorney General Keith Ellison highlights the severity of the issue:

Keith Ellison [02:01]: "Tuesday, security officials briefed Congress. The FBI and Capitol Police say threats against members of Congress are rising sharply, nearly 9,500 just last year, the highest number since 2021."

Ellison underscores the urgent need for addressing this surge in hostility toward lawmakers, emphasizing that legislative measures alone may not suffice to curb the escalating rhetoric.

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II. The Assassination of Melissa Hortman and Its Impact

A tragic focal point of the discussion is the recent assassination of former Speaker of the Minnesota House, Melissa Hortman, and her husband. Joy Reid provides a detailed account:

Joy Reid [02:25]: "The US has a long history of political violence and political assassinations, including four presidents. And this past Saturday, we witnessed the worst possible outcome..."

Melissa Hortman, a dedicated public servant and friend of Keith Ellison, is mourned by Ellison, who recounts their longstanding relationship and her unwavering commitment to social justice:

Melissa Hortman [03:35]: "Melissa Hortman was a very dear friend of mine... She was tireless, a fighter, and got a judgment of about $400,000 for her client."

The tragic event serves as a stark reminder of the lethal consequences of extreme political animosity.

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III. Impersonation of Law Enforcement and Its Implications

A particularly disturbing aspect discussed is the assassin’s impersonation of law enforcement, which has broader implications for public trust and safety. Joy Reid raises concerns about masked individuals abusing authority:

Joy Reid [09:12]: "...this person dressed up as a cop, dressed up not only himself with this creepy latex mask, but had a uniform that looked like a police uniform..."

Attorney General Ellison responds with a call for clear identification of law enforcement officers to prevent such abuses:

Melissa Hortman [10:02]: "If you're going to be doing undercover stuff, I get that. But if you're making a lawful arrest, if it is lawful, then why are you hiding for?"

This segment highlights the thin line between necessary undercover operations and actions that can instill fear and mistrust in the community.

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IV. Misinformation and Social Media Influence

The discussion transitions to the rampant spread of misinformation, particularly on platforms like X Twitter, where prominent figures attempt to distort the narrative surrounding political violence:

Joy Reid [11:08]: "We've also seen... people dressed in ICE uniforms... there's a sense around the country that you have no idea who's coming up to you."

Melissa Hortman counters these false narratives by clarifying the motives and actions of the assassin, debunking claims that he was a Democrat:

Melissa Hortman [11:59]: "Melissa Hortman is fully in favor of all people getting health care. She knows that your immigration status doesn't. You should still be able to get the health care that you need."

Ellison criticizes influential figures like Elon Musk for perpetuating harmful misinformation, arguing that such actions exacerbate societal divisions:

Melissa Hortman [14:35]: "This is wrong. It's irresponsible. And I think that this is another reason why X is not simply a neutral platform for people to express their views."

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V. The Conservative Supreme Court and Its Consequences

In the latter part of the episode, author Leah Litman joins the conversation to discuss her book, Lawless: How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes. The dialogue focuses on the conservative majority's impact on U.S. jurisprudence and civil rights.

A. Justice Clarence Thomas and Originalism

Litman critiques Justice Clarence Thomas for his originalist stance, which she argues undermines landmark civil rights advancements:

Leah Litman [27:44]: "Justice Thomas is just being more transparent about what their broader ideological project and their legal methodology is driving at."

B. Justice Samuel Alito’s Rhetoric and Decisions

The conversation touches on Justice Samuel Alito’s confrontational approach and its implications for judicial impartiality:

Leah Litman [32:32]: "Justice Alito really seems to feel personally attacked anytime anyone expresses a view that he disagrees with..."

C. The Judicial Shift and Its Impact on Civil Liberties

Litman expresses concern over the court's efforts to reverse critical civil liberties cases, emphasizing the danger posed to established protections:

Leah Litman [35:05]: "This has felt like a project to restore the kind of outsized political power... they held before the civil rights revolutions."

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VI. Proposed Solutions and the Path Forward

Addressing the shift in judicial power, both guests discuss potential remedies to counteract the conservative majority's influence. Ellison supports expanding the Supreme Court but warns of the risks involved:

Leah Litman [40:28]: "I think by returning more power to the people and democratizing our institutions and expanding the court as part of that, I think that that's our way out of this mess."

The consensus revolves around not only increasing judicial representation but also enhancing public engagement and institutional checks to safeguard democratic principles.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Joy Reid Show serves as a crucial examination of the intertwined relationship between political ideology and violence in America. Through heartfelt discussions about recent tragic events and incisive critiques of the Supreme Court's direction, Joy Reid provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current political climate's volatility. The insights from Keith Ellison and Leah Litman underscore the urgent need for legislative action, judicial reform, and societal vigilance to prevent further erosion of democratic values and to ensure the safety and equality of all citizens.

Notable Quotes:

• Keith Ellison [02:01]: "Threats against members of Congress are rising sharply, nearly 9,500 just last year, the highest number since 2021."
• Melissa Hortman [10:02]: "Any kid who's ever watched a TV show knows the robber is the one wearing the mask, not the cop."
• Leah Litman [27:44]: "Justice Thomas is just being more transparent about what their broader ideological project and their legal methodology is driving at."
• Leah Litman [35:05]: "They want to restore a world in which they held all of the social capital, they held all of the political power."

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This summary encapsulates the core discussions and messages conveyed in the episode, offering listeners a thorough overview of the critical issues surrounding political ideology and violence in the current American landscape.

Transcript

[Joy Reid]

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[Keith Ellison]

Second one is that he's creating a false moral equivalent by saying, if you.

[Melissa Hortman]

South Africa, charge Israel with genocide in.

[Keith Ellison]

The International Court of Justice, I'm charging you with genocide of white Afrikaners. If you, South Africa, charge Israel with occupying Palestinian lands in the west bank and Gaza, then I am charging you with confiscating white lands.

[Melissa Hortman]

That is not only a false moral.

[Keith Ellison]

Equivalent, it is fundamentally founded on an absolute blue lie.

[Joy Reid]

Okay, hello everyone and welcome to the Joy Reed Show.

[Keith Ellison]

Minnesota Senators Tina Smith and Amy Klobuchar speaking out.

[Joy Reid]

And I'm sure in the days to come we will offer legislation on security and all kinds of things, but we don't need to pass a law for people to turn down the rhetoric.

[Keith Ellison]

Tuesday, security officials briefed Congress. The FBI and Capitol Police say threats against members of Congress are rising sharply, nearly 9,500 just last year, the highest number since 2021.

[Melissa Hortman]

When people are trying to threaten you with violence to prevent you from doing your job as a legislator, that's not how this country was designed.

[Joy Reid]

Well, that actually is the way this country was built. The US Has a long history of political violence and political assassinations, including four presidents. And this past Saturday, we witnessed the worst possible outcome of the violent political rhetoric that we've seen escalate in our country in the current era, when an apparent right wing gunman assassinated the former speaker of the Minnesota House, Melissa Hortman and her husband and shot and injured State Senator John Hoffman and his wife at their home in a nearby neighborhood. The alleged assassin, vance Boteler, a 57 year old whose best friend said that he supported and voted for Donald Trump for president also allegedly had a hit list in his fake police car, which he used to gain access to his victims. The hit list contained the names of dozens of Democratic lawmakers, members of Congress from multiple states, plus abortion providers, and the Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, who joins me now. Attorney General Ellison, I want to start by giving you the opportunity to talk about the former speaker, Representative Hortman. I know that she was a friend of yours.

[Melissa Hortman]

Yeah, Melissa Hortman was a very dear friend of mine. She and I go back before I was in politics or she was in politics back in 1997. She was a legal aid lawyer, legal aid society, representing tenants. And I was at the legal rights center doing mostly, you know, more criminal justice related things. And she had a client who was an African American mom of four, no, excuse me, three, and was the victim of discrimination, horrible treatment by her landlord, bad living conditions. In fact, one of the things that came through was, you know, girls don't have to pay rent, you know, which was something that I found shocking and disturbing. Anyway, this particular client, she was so lucky to have a great lawyer like Melissa, who was tireless, who was a fighter and who got a judgment of about $400,000. It was a tremendous thing that she did to stand up for tenants and their children. And so that's how we met. And then I went into politics. She went into politics. Over the course of years, I recognized how talented she was. And I said, look, when I went to Congress, I said, melissa, you should run in the third Congressional District. And she said, no, I'm going to stay here. I like representing my neighbors right here and seeing them every day. I like politics closer to home in D.C. you got to get on that plane and be gone all week and stuff like that. So that's the Melissa Hortman I know. She helped us with the Attorney General all the time with our budget. But she also was a tireless advocate for children, for paid medical, family leave, for women's economic security. She was just there and she did it all. Joy, with a sense of joy. You know, she, she had a great smile and she worked across the aisle, too. She, she was able to stand firmly on her beliefs and then knew that the practical reality is we had to have a budget get passed some. That's, that's who, that's who she was. She was just a great person and I miss her so much.

[Joy Reid]

And do you, can you give us any updates on how her children are doing and also how Senator Hoffman and his wife Yvette are Doing so, Senator.

[Melissa Hortman]

Hoffman, from what we understand, he was the first house that this bad guy approached. I know the shooter's name. I'm just not using it because I'm not giving him any publicity. I know that the Hortman children have come to the display, the memorial, which is out in front of the state of Minnesota House of Representatives chamber. Just a beautiful array of flowers and well wishes and expressions of grief and remorse and sadness. And they went there. And so I'm. Well, that they're doing. I'm aware that they're doing, they're managing. But I mean, you know, here they are, two wonderful young people dealing with their parents assassination. It's not like it was cancer and long. I mean, not that that's any easier. It's not, but. But their parents were, well, healthy, strong and ready for anything hours before and then suddenly snatched away by a man who's just filled with hate. So.

[Joy Reid]

And we know that. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[Melissa Hortman]

I was going to say John Hoffman, great man. We're still praying for his recovery. He's known for a lot of great things, but he is truly an advocate for people who suffer from schizophrenia and other serious mental health illnesses. He's been really trying to increase the number of beds at the state mental health hospital, trying to improve the treatment and the humanity for that particular part of our community. Really a wonderful guy.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. And we know now that the assassin visited four homes in total. Thankfully, one of the people he was targeting were on vacation. They weren't there. The other person, I believe, did not open the door. But can you tell us, number one, how you found out about this roving series of assassinations? And were you among the homes that was visited by law enforcement to warn you because you were also on the hit list of this man.

[Melissa Hortman]

Yeah. So I got a call. I don't know exactly when. I am an early riser, so it's not unusual for me to be up at 5, but. But it was sometime before that that I got a call and was told that Melissa Hortman had been murdered and that John Hoffman had been shot down along with their spouses and that, you know, be aware the guy's not been apprehended. It was described to me how the guy exchanged gunfire with police at the Hortman home, but then was able to evade them. And so beware because this is in the northern part of our city and I live in the northern part of the city. But no, they didn't need to come to My house security did eventually come. I want to thank members of law enforcement for doing that. But, you know, it's just a horrible situation. But the state troopers and the police and the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, they've been doing a good job keeping us safe. So I thank them.

[Joy Reid]

And the thing I think that is so frightening for a lot of people, besides just the fact that it happened, is the fact that this person dressed up as a cop, dressed up not only himself with this creepy latex mask, but had a uniform that looked like a police uniform and even had decals on his vehicle. He owned a security company that made it look like it was. Was the police at the door. This, I think, has alarmed people, not just for the fact of it, but we've also seen in a broader category and you know, around the country, people who are dressed in ICE uniforms or who have ICE emblazoned on their jackets, but are wearing masks, abducting people, taking people, arresting them. And there's a sense around the country that you have no idea who's coming up to you. You have no idea whether they're really law enforcement. You, as Attorney General of Minnesota is, does this concern you?

[Melissa Hortman]

It concerns me very deeply. I think we need to pass legislation that if you are a officer of the law, whether it is ICE or a police department or anything that you should ed. Must be clearly identifiable. Now, if you're going to be doing undercover stuff, I get that. But if you're making a lawful arrest, if it is lawful, then what are you hiding for? I mean, this is the stuff of dictatorship and authoritarian regimes when the people who supposed to uphold the law are afraid to be identified. Look, law enforcement as a. I'm a law enforcement officer. You know, I think it's a noble profession, I think, to be a law enforcement officer, police officer, ICE officer. If you are upholding the law, democratically arrived at law, then why are you afraid to let the public know who you are? You're supposed to be the good guys. Well, only the bad guys wear masks. You know, I mean, any kid who's ever watched a TV show knows the robber is the one wearing the mask, not the cop.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah, and you know, the other piece of this has been the propaganda and the lies that have come from the MAGA side. To be frank, Elon Musk and his followers on X Twitter have led this charge to try to blame, first of all, the late Representative Hortman, essentially for her own death, saying that this person, this assassin, was a Democrat because they were appointed to a board by Governor Tim Walls. That's a nonpartisan board. Even though this person was a registered Republican, he and his wife were registered Republicans earlier when they lived in a state where you had to register. And I know that's not the case in Minnesota, but also because Representative Hortman voted to advance a law that strips undocumented people from access to health care. What do you make of that lie?

[Melissa Hortman]

Well, the first thing I want your listeners to know, that Melissa Hortman is fully in favor of all people getting health care. She knows that your immigration status doesn't. You should still be able to get the health care that you need. And this was an agreement that she had to vote for because the legislature is 67. 67. And we were going to end up with no budget unless she voted for this budget. And so it was a terrible compromise, but it's the compromise sometimes leaders have to make. I know Melissa, and I know she'd be first in line to be able to restore that healthcare as soon as she could. So they're lying and it's not true. And I don't want your listeners to get the wrong impression about why she would support something like that. It is to make sure the entire budget didn't fail. That was the price that they made the Democrats pay to get a budget. Having said that, let me say that that's the problem with oligopoly, if I may say so, Joy. Why in the world would anyone care what Elon Musk has to say much about anything? Why can't we go back to the days where rich people just got on boats and sailed around the Mediterranean? I wouldn't have any problem with him being. Just being a rich jerk, you know, doing whatever rich people do, you know, I don't know, eating like, you know, clams on the half shell or something. I don't know what they do. I'm not rich, so. But my point is, instead, he's interfering and ruining society. He's ruined society to the point where people are protesting his businesses because they want to stop him from destroying society. Does he catch a clue? Apparently not. This is wrong. It's irresponsible. And I think that this is another reason why, you know, X is not simply a neutral platform for people to express their views. It is him literally publishing a point of view. And if you're going to use the airwaves that way, I think that you have to meet the rules that any other publisher has to meet, which is regulation. You know, it's not a neutral platform. He is a broadcaster Slash publisher. And he must be subject to the laws of the nation. And so that's what I think about that. It's gone way too far and it's time to pull it back. If he didn't, if he wasn't the richest man in the world, he couldn't get away with that kind of behavior.

[Joy Reid]

Well, I mean, you as a law enforcement officer, I mean you, what happens is, is that when maga, you know, their leaders start to speak, they, you know, they all sort of swar and believe it and they've really invested themselves in the idea that this person was a Democrat. That this is Tim Wall to the point where Senator Mike Lee posted a very crass, very ugly post on X Twitter mocking the dead, mocking this, your friend, the dead misses the late Representative Hortman mocking Representative Hoffman. You know, at this point, isn't this dangerous? Because if you've now got the whole MAGA right invested in the idea that no, there is no right wing violence whenever there's violence, this person is a Democrat, even though there's literal proof that this person was a right wing hyper Christian, I'll put that in scare quotes. Who preached right wing Christian views and whose best friend said he's a Republican who voted for Trump?

[Melissa Hortman]

Well, let me just say, you know, just so anybody, any conservative listening to your show, let me just remind everybody, when my former colleague Steve Scalise was shot down at a Republican baseball practice because the Democrats play the Republicans in the annual baseball game, all of us were there with Steve praying for his health, condemning the wickedness of the people who shot him, even though that person did claim to be of a left wing ideology. The problem is they have allowed politics to destroy their core humanity. I would say there's a matter of statistical fact. Most right wing, most of the violence, political violence is on the right today. But there have been left wing people who've done violent stuff. We're not saying, we're not denying that. The difference between us and them is that we denounce people who do horrible things like that and thereby suppress it. And the head of their party won't even call our governor. Their richest patron is turning it up. Senator Mike Lee. If Senator Mike Lee is the man he claims us all trust to convince us all that he is, he would say publicly in an op ed in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times or on your show, I am sorry, I let my better judgment slide to the wayside and just got too hyper partisan. That's what a good person would do. I don't blame him for making mistakes. Politicians make mistakes because we're people. But he has not done that. What he's done is taken the bad post down. So he's kind of trying to, like, just sweep it up under the rug. Don't sweep it under the rug. Mike Lee could help the United States of America get over this toxic hyper partisanship by saying, my bad, I'm sorry, I should not have done that. He could do that, but we'll see if he does. It takes character to do something like that. And so I guess time will tell whether he has that character.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. What about, you know, sort of. If you think about that same sort of line of conversation, the right is also pushing many of them. Sorry, pushing for Donald Trump to pardon Derek Chauvin, who, of course, is the former police officer who choked and killed George Floyd. So the same group of people who insist that it's the right, that that's the left that does political violence or that does violence now is calling for Trump to pardon Derek Chauvin. You, as the Attorney general who was head over that case, what do you think of it?

[Melissa Hortman]

Well, let me just let your listeners know that if Trump decides to pardon Chauvin, Chauvin's just going to come under the Commissioner of Corrections jurisdiction and he will be spending the rest of his time in prison in Minnesota. He is not getting out under any circumstances. Trump cannot pardon a state conviction. Having said that, let me be clear. Trump is the one who pardoned around 1500 thugs who attacked this Capitol that resulted in the injury of 140 police officers and law enforcement officials. And several lost their lives. One lost his eye. One was beaten with a pole that was a flag attached to it. They were waving the Confederate flag in the Capitol. One of them had a. Not one of them, but maybe more than one, but at least one had T shirt that said Camp Auschwitz. And he pardoned these people. So, of course, Trump doesn't care. And he does, by the way. He doesn't even care about Derek Chauvin. Derek Chauvin was duly convicted of crimes that he committed and is serving time for them. It doesn't make me feel great that he's in prison, but that is where he's supposed to be based on what he did. It's what the penalty is for what he did. Now he's going to go from a state, from a federal facility to a state one which is going to make his life a lot worse. I guarantee you that. If anybody's been in the criminal justice system knows that. And so we're not, in normal times, we are dealing with somebody who doesn't want to pass legislation through the normal course. They want to issue executive orders. They want. They will not. They allow their agents and representatives to wear masks as they are enforcing the law, which is definitely authoritarian. They're disrespecting the courts, they're disrespecting the media, which has First Amendment protection and enshrined in the First Amendment of the Constitution. We are dealing with authoritarianism. And one of the first laws of authoritarianism is no accountability, deceit and lies, distraction and division. Try to get. Trump has got to divide us. He's got to tell us that those of us born here got to be suspicious of those who came here. He's got to tell us those of us who are people of color got to be suspicious of our white friends, neighbors and colleagues. And he tells them that we're the reason why they're not getting their aspirations met and that we're somehow taking their jobs. And he tells men that their lives are not as good because women have been coming up and have the right to reproductive choice. I guess I'm saying he is always trying to divide us, and it's not just on one front, it's on multiple. He's so divisive. He's telling the G L B to be against the team, if you notice what I'm saying. He's, he's trying to, you know, he, he, he's trying to get everybody to hate everybody, because if he does it, he gets a $400 million plane, he gets a, you know, a, a hotels on the go on the Persian Gulf, he gets golf courses, he gets Trump Towers, he gets bitcoin scams going. It's really fundamentally about the grift. But how do you get to the grift scam? Divide and conquer. That's how you get there, and that's what he's about. And people think that since the fifth anniversary of George Floyd death is gone, come and gone, that maybe he won't let go of. He won't pardon Chauvin. But what I believe is that he's just waiting for a moment when he needs to distract everybody, and then that's what he'll do. I've already anticipated that.

[Joy Reid]

I am told we are out of time. But if I can sneak just one very quick final question in. We know that ESSENCE Fest is coming up. Target is based in your state. They are facing a massive boycott, but recently decided to give $300,000 to the, I believe, the National Baptist Convention, they seem to be trying to make a comeback. What is the corporate relate, I mean, as far as a corporate citizen of your state, what do you make of their reaction to Donald Trump's abolishment, essentially of dei?

[Melissa Hortman]

I say this to any corporate entity. Your customer base is multicultural. Your employee base is multicultural. Your owners, your shareholders come from a diverse background. You're trying to sell to the rest of the world, which is clearly diverse. Donald Trump is not your friend. Diversity is, in fact, your friend. And why don't you be on the side of your friends? This guy doesn't care about you anymore. The only way for you to get Donald Trump to do anything you want is to hand him a bunch of your stock, and then he'll probably ruin your company. He's never been good at business. So what you're being is bullied. And the question is, do you have enough intestinal fortitude to stand up against the bullying? Target is a great Minnesota company who has disappointed me. I haven't stepped foot in there since the reverend called the boycott. I don't go in there, and I'm not. You won't catch me in there. But if the CEO says we made a mistake, we welcome everyone back. We never meant to imply that everyone wasn't welcome here. And we now do have a restored DEI program. I will go in there, but that's what I need. All I'm asking them to do is do what's right and then I'll do. And then I'll go patronize their store and I'll tell other people they should. But as long as they're gonna stand on what's wrong, then they can be wrong all on their own. They don't need my help.

[Joy Reid]

You have made some news. I love that. Attorney General Keith Ellison, thank you so much. You make it plain and we appreciate it. Thank you for coming on to the Joy Reed show, and we hope you'll come back again.

[Melissa Hortman]

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[Keith Ellison]

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[Melissa Hortman]

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[Keith Ellison]

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[Melissa Hortman]

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[Keith Ellison]

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[Joy Reid]

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[Melissa Hortman]

For transgender rights in the U.S. with the Supreme Court upholding Tennessee's ban on gender affirming care for minors in the 63 ruling, with the conservative majority writing that Tennessee law does not violate the Constitution's Equal protection clause, Justice Sonia Sotomayor sharply disagreed, saying the majority quote abandons transgender children and their families to political whims. Tennessee is one of two dozen states with laws that ban all gender affirming care for minors, including puberty blockers and hormone therapy. The case was brought to the nation's highest court because of a Tennessee teenager and her parents when the state banned the treatments that she was under.

[Joy Reid]

I think we've all been jolted by the Supreme Court's actions over the last several years, seeming to roll back rights that were very hard won throughout the 20th century. In fact, I've said it often. I'll say it again. It is as if the conservative majority that was put in place in large part by Leonard Leo and the Federalist Society is at war with the 20th century and attempting to repeal it. Well, joining me now, particularly in this time of political violence, of real seeming authoritarianism creeping into our country, if not outright fascism. It is a really good time to be speaking with Leah Littman. Her new book is how the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories and Bad Vibes. Leah, thank you so much for being here.

[Keith Ellison]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Joy Reid]

So you titled the book Lawless. It's a pretty confrontational Title. Tell me what that title means in terms of what you believe about this conservative Supreme Court majority.

[Keith Ellison]

It's meant to convey the extent to which the justices are abandoning any pretense of reasoning in the register of what we might consider law and instead laundering their feelings and the general political talking points and atmosphere of the Republican Party into the law and sometimes just declaring it to be the law.

[Joy Reid]

Right. And you know, in some ways, I think there are a couple of examples where it feels like they are simply stating their own personal opinions rather than the law. I go to Clarence Thomas for a moment. Clarence Thomas, who seems to have had a beef with the world since he was in law school and who's playing that out on the court at one point said that the Reconstruction amendments, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, were not specifically written for freedmen. They didn't particularly apply to black people. That seems absurd and insane. When you saw that in one of his concurrences, what did you make of it?

[Keith Ellison]

I mean, it's absolutely wild. Not only did he say that the Reconstruction Amendments aren't specifically written for Friedman, he insisted that the entire project of Reconstruction was motivated in part by a desire to strongly retaliate against the south, as if it was about animosity or retaliation toward the south rather than a recognition of the types of law and force that would be required to actually enforce black civil rights in the wake of the Civil War. He trotted out that banger in the oral argument about whether the 14th Amendment disqualified Donald Trump from appearing on the ballot because of Trump's role in the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th and the broader Stop the Steal movement. And so they are taking this idea where they twist any and all civil rights protections into unfair victimization of different groups that are part of the modern GOP coalition and using that to decline to enforce those civil rights protections or basically to render them without any real force or effect.

[Joy Reid]

And so, you know, on the same part, just to stay with Clarence just for a minute, he also seemed, and I believe this was in the Dobbs concurrence, to put out a like bat signal calling for anyone who would like to reverse Lawrence v. Texas, which is the decision that made it legal for same sex couples to have, you know, relationships to. He called out Obergefell, which was the decision on same sex marriage, and he seemed to call for everything except Brown v. Board and, and Loving, which of course would impact his own marriage. But he seemed to be saying, hey, let's reverse everything that has expanded rights. What's that all about.

[Keith Ellison]

Clarence Thomas has a burn book that is quite long and it includes most of the civil rights protections of the 20th century. And I think we should recognize that this is the reason why the Republican appointees were put on the Supreme Court. You know, Justice Thomas is one of the more famous originalists, one of the more vocal adherents of originalism. And he was appointed, you know, after originalism was trumpeted and sold as a method of reversing the civil egalitarianism and civil libertarianism of the Warren Court. You know, the Reagan administration advertise originalism as a way to advance their social policies through the law. And so in some ways, Justice Thomas is just being more transparent about what their legal methodology would do. You know, unlike Justice Alito, who just included these caveats saying, well, of course originalism isn't going to call into question Oberg, Fell, Griswold and these other decisions because those cases don't involve the potential for life, which just completely ignores that originalism isn't focused on what the justification for these laws is, but instead whether, under our history and traditions, these rights have been protected since the 1700s and 1800s. So I think Justice Thomas has just been more clear about what their broader ideological project and their legal methodology is driving at.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. And for those who don't know, Griswold is the law is the ruling that allows women to be able to get birth control. So there we go. Let's talk about Sam Alito, because he seems to be the most angry justice. He seems to be the most opposed to just the existence of the 20th century. I think if he could snap his fingers and go back to the 19th or the 18th, he would. And weirdly enough, Clarence would go with him, which would be very weird. Why does he seem to be such an angry justice? And of course, you know, Dobbs was his ultimate screed.

[Keith Ellison]

You know, it is difficult to get a precise window into the mind of Sam Alito, but what I can offer is he really seems to feel personally attacked anytime anyone expresses a view that he disagrees with or anytime anyone fairly describes what his views are. So just to take an example, in Obergefell vs Hodges, the marriage equality decision, he insisted there that merely recognizing marriage equality would facilitate the marginalization of those with traditional views about marriage, as if allowing gay people to get married somehow forced him into some kind of closet. Like he literally equated marriage equality with the harsh treatment of gays and lesbians in the past. That is an actual line from Obergefell. And it seems like he has felt even more victimized and attacked in a recent oral argument about whether school districts have to give parents the right to opt their children out of instruction that includes reading storybooks with LGBT characters. Justice Alito looked at this storybook, Uncle Bobby's Wedding, in which there was a mere message about the fact that Uncle Bobby was getting married to a man. And he looked at that and said, how is that not indoctrination? How is that not an attack on those with, again, traditional views of marriage? And so he perceives, you know, the mere acknowledgement of the existence of same sex relationships to be some kind of personal attack on him.

[Joy Reid]

And, you know, I set those two aside because I think people think of them as the most sort of extreme. Just the sort of extreme. Justices, your subhead is grievance, fringe theories and bad vibes that I think that describes the two of them. But I'm not sure that I. That I put John Roberts out of that, to be honest. I think John Roberts is a more urbane version of the same thing, because it does seem that he, particularly in his reversals on the Voting Rights act, which he really seems to hate, is that they all share, the six of them, this sense that the modernization of America has made right wing Christians, as you said, go into the closet. It's forced them into the closet. It's pushed them to the periphery of society. Their views are not cool, they're not mainstream, they're not celebrated in Hollywood. And therefore they've taken it upon themselves, the six of them, to drag us back to where those ideas are the norm. Does that feel close to your theory?

[Keith Ellison]

I think that that's exactly right. You know, this has felt like a project to restore the kind of outsized political power, you know, the stranglehold on political power that white conservatives had before the civil rights revolutions, you know, for racial equality and for feminism and for LGBT equality. They want to restore a world in which they held all of the social capital, they held all of the political power. And you can see this in the logic of the decisions involving the Voting Rights act, where, as you know, Chief Justice Roberts authored, you know, the major decision in Shelby county invalidating a key provision of the Voting Rights Act. He also authored significant campaign finance decisions that struck down campaign finance laws on the ground that they somehow discriminated against the mega rich, as if the mega rich ultra billionaires are the victims of our political process today rather than the economic have nots. So, yes, I think all of the Republican justices, all six of them, though, of course, you know, to varying degrees, they're fixated on this idea that their ideological fellow travelers are hurt by the existence of the 20th and 21st centuries.

[Joy Reid]

Yeah. And you know, Sonia Sotomayor, Justice Sota Sotomayor, and Justice Jackson have written just epic dissents on all of these cases. The Sotomayor dissent in the case that gave Donald Trump essentially limitless power, made him as close to a king as possible, I think is memorable forever as well as Justice Jackson's dissents. Do you think that the alarm that the women who serve in the minority on the court that they're sending up is that these people are monarchists. Do you think these people want to make Donald Trump a king?

[Keith Ellison]

I think they have been trying to say that as loudly as they possibly can without basically getting their Republican colleagues to write them off forever. You know, if you think about, for example, the decision where the court put Donald Trump back on the ballot in the lead up to the 2024 presidential election, the three Democratic appointees accused the majority of trying to insulate not only the court, but also the petitioner Donald Trump from further consequences. They were trying to tell us these guys are in the bag for Donald Trump. Justice Kagan said something similar when the Republican appointees allowed Donald Trump to fire the heads of multi member commissions in violation of federal law and in contravention of a nearly century old supreme decision. There she wrote again, joined by the other Democratic appointees, that this court cares more about this president than they do about our precedents. They have been trying to tell us again, as loudly as they can, I think.

[Joy Reid]

And won't they just reverse? They will. They will reverse it. If there ever is another Democratic president, if we ever have free and fair elections again, won't they just reverse all of this and say, oh, wait, no, the president must be constrained if it's a Democrat, if it's, you know, Kamala Harris, she must be fully constrained.

[Keith Ellison]

All of their decisions leave them more than enough wiggle room to say that Democratic presidents can't govern. But Republican presidents, they get to do basically whatever they want. I mean, if you think about the decision where they allowed Donald Trump to fire officials in violation of federal law, to violate federal laws that tried to place constraints on the president's power, but they wouldn't allow Joe Biden to exercise the authority that Congress gave him to waive or modify those requirements of the Department of Education, including student debt. So Democrats don't get to exercise the power given to them by Congress, but Republicans get to violate the limitations on their power. It's absurd.

[Joy Reid]

And two more questions. One being how much control does Leonard Leo have over these people? Because it feels like they are operatives of the Federalist society and of Mr. Leo and that they are working in the favor, they are working to advance the interests of state, a set of billionaires. Is that too extreme for me to say?

[Keith Ellison]

No, I don't think that's too extreme at all. I think the conservative legal movement has been remarkably effective at creating this feedback mechanism and ecosystem where they can signal to the Republican appointees what they want and get the justices to move with them as their own views change.

[Joy Reid]

And what's the end game? Because they cannot control Donald Trump. I think that they think they can. They sometimes, you know, sort of complain about, you know, violent rhetoric toward judges when they don't rule his way, he screams at Amy Coney Barrett to the point where some in media are trying to make Amy Coney Barrett seem like she somehow changed her view and become this moderate, which is BS but, you know, they can't control Donald Trump. Right? So what's the end game here?

[Keith Ellison]

They can't control Donald Trump. I think they envision they will be the boss or Republican Party elites are going to be the boss. That that's the only group that gets to exercise political power. And they basically TR treat, you know, the worldviews of the Democratic Party and exercises of Democratic political power as suspect, probably illegal and probably unconstitutional. So I think it really is an effort to create effectively a one party state where society is forced to celebrate the views of the Republican Party or at least to embrace them.

[Joy Reid]

What's the answer then? Because, you know, Ellie Mustal and others have said, you got to expand the court. The only way to stop these people is to drown them out and have five more justices who can rule the other way. Is that the only answer?

[Keith Ellison]

So I am definitely on board with Ellie's suggestion. I don't think that can be the only solution though, because I do think that the Supreme Court has become too powerful and too removed from the people. And I think just expanding the court creates the risk that, well, the Republican Party could capture the court again and expand it and then allow them to unleash all of their powers that they're exercising now. So I think in addition to expanding the court, the Democratic Party should try to limit the authority of the court to strike down laws like the Voting Rights act or to entirely control their own docket, or to go out and search for cases and issues that they just really want to opine on and fashion the law. And so I think by returning more power to the people and democratizing our institutions and expanding the court as part of that, I think that that's our way out of this mess and we.

[Joy Reid]

Hope that it happens sometime soon. Leah Lippman, Fascinating. The book is Lawless, how the Supreme Court runs on conservative grievance, fringe theories and bad vibes feels like a must read to me because this is where we are in this mess. Leah, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time.

[Keith Ellison]

Thank you again for having me. I really appreciate it.

[Joy Reid]

Woo. Well, it seems like it just never stops getting crazier and crazier and crazier. Thank you to Leah Littman as well as to Attorney General Keith Ellison. And coming up on Friday on this show, we are going to get into this.

[Melissa Hortman]

How many people living around, by the way?

[Keith Ellison]

I don't know the population at all. No, I don't know the population. You don't know the population of the country you seek to topple?

[Joy Reid]

Yes, that was one. Tucker Carlson, AKA Tuck Ems dismantling Ted Cancun Kroos on the subject of whether we the United States should be at war with Iran. No, we should not. We're gonna get into that. And the breakup on the right over whether or not we should be sending our troops to Iran to fight Israel's war with them. We're also going to talk with Zoran Mamdani, who is one of the 4,800 candidates for new York City mayor. That race is getting hot. That election actually happens next week. So we're going to talk to Zoran Mamdani on Friday. Also, the Great Ture is going to be here to talk about all the things including that Diddler trial. We're going to talk about all of the many things with Terre. And we're also going to talk to you because we're going to be live. So we'll see you guys on Friday. Thank you. Thanks to all of our guests for being here today. Attorney General Keith Ellison, Leah Litman, and we'll see you all on Friday. But until then, like and subscribe and share, please make sure that you subscribe. They'll, you know, let us know that you're there. We want to see you. Please comment and share. Send this episode to a friend. Send it to a phone just to piss them off.

[Keith Ellison]

Why not?

[Joy Reid]

All right, y' all, thank you so much for being here and we'll see you next time on the Joy Reed Show. Bye bye.

[Melissa Hortman]

Trees that I'm hard to detect like a black hole in a jar.

[Joy Reid]

And That's a wrap. We rap.