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- [00:00]
Joy Reid
What is dadication? The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Dae Dae for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job. That's dadication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council. Okay, that is it. We are live. Good evening everyone. Welcome to the Joy Reid show. It is 7 o' clock on Monday, June 23rd. I will note that date because yesterday at this time it appeared that Donald Trump was in the midst of starting World War three. Today he may be in taco mode. I want to read you what Donald Trump has just tweeted out. Kaitlan Collins has posted about it. Congratulations to everyone. He put that in all caps. It has been fully agreed by and between Israel and Iran that there will be a complete and total ceasefire in all caps at approximately six hours from now when Israel and Iran have wound down and completed their in progress final missions for 12 hours, at which point the war in initial caps will be considered. All caps ended. And then this is the part that Caitlyn Collins highlighted. Caitlyn Collins have seen and highlighted in her post officially. Hold on, I'm sorry, my camera is moving here. We're going to move it back. Officially, Iran will start the ceasefire and upon the 12th, 12th hour, Israel will start the ceasefire and upon the 24th hour, blah, blah, blah. Donald Trump announcing an end to the war that he got us into for no reason whatsoever. Donald Trump over the last several days has done everything he can to seem as incoherent as possible on the subject of what our policy is toward Iran. On Saturday he jumped into a war that Israel started. I want to make that very clear. Israel decided it was in their interest to begin bombing Iran, but they knew that they did not have the kind of weapons that could actually take out the three nuclear sites. Natanz being the one a lot of people have heard of, Firdos being another one. There were three sites in total. They can't take them out because they do not have the bunker buster 3000 pound bombs that are necessary to do that. The United States is the country that has those kinds of weapons. We use the 2,000 pound variety or allow them to to bomb Palestinian children and Women and men while they were asleep or in hospitals or schools. Those were the 2,000 pound bombs that President Biden allowed them to use on Palestinians. But there is also a 3000 pound bunker buster bomb that is designed to go down beneath the earth and destroy whatever is below. Here's the problem. After that foray into dropping bombs in a country in which that has not attacked us, which is essentially a declaration of war, the Trump regime was unable to confirm that they actually had taken out the nuclear weapons capability of Iran because they were not certain whether Iran had moved their nuclear weapons or their nuclear arsenals prior to the bombing. I mean, they knew that the United States possibly could join Israel's attack on them. So perhaps they moved it. They could not confirm it because this administration is actually not competent. I don't think anyone could feel perfectly confident that this is an administration that could actually successfully prosecute a war. These are mostly television personalities, including Donald Trump, including Pete Hegseth, including, including their non national security team. The Dr. Oz is of the world. But even in their national security team, there's been reporting in Politico that may that Mr. Hegseth, who is busy renaming military bases to give the Confederate traders back their honorifics, that he's not even being listened to or talked to in this matter. It is a general. It is a general whose nickname is the gorilla. Who Donald Trump is actually listening to should make you feel really confident. Over the weekend, not long after the bombing by the United States of a country that had not attacked us. After that, not long after that bombing campaign and after Donald Trump made his announcement. Standing beside J.D. vance and Pete Hegseth and Marco Rubio, we interviewed Trita Parsi, who is the co founder of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. The Quincy Institute has expertise on the region, but particularly on Iran. I want to play you a piece of that interview and what he said were the likely results of the folly of Donald Trump, who I will remind you ran for president vowing to end stupid wars, vowing to not start new stupid wars, and to even Marjorie Taylor Greene has noted betrayed his voters by starting a stupid war which he now says is over. So I want to play you what Trita Parsi said to us on the Joy Reid Show. Let's play that. Rita, your reaction to Donald Trump's decision to bomb these facilities. I think Donald Trump has all but.
- [05:44]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Guarantee that Iran will be a nuclear.
- [05:46]
Joy Reid
Weapons state in five to ten years from now because nothing motivates a country more to achieve a nuclear deterrent than having been bombed in this manner by another country. Because just in the last week, we've seen a tremendous shift in opinion within the regime and within the society in favor of weaponization because of this attack by Israel at first and now the.
- [06:10]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Attack by Donald Trump.
- [06:15]
Joy Reid
This is an important note that I think is really, really, really important to explain to you all, because in regular folks terms, what it means is that Iran understands that the only thing that could likely prevent the expansionist nuclear power in their neighborhood, namely Israel, which has attacked them unprovoked, which prevented them from cutting a deal with the United States under President Obama to curtail their enrichment of nuclear material to keep it for civilian purposes. Donald Trump ended that agreement. Joe Biden did not restart that agreement. They've tried talking to us, they've tried negotiating with us, they've tried appealing to our sense of reason to say that we have a right as a sovereign nation to enrich nuclear material in order to heat our homes, in order to have an electricity grid powered by nuclear weapons, probably nuclear, not with nuclear weapons, but powered by nuclear material. And we could do that. We're a sovereign country. We tried negotiating and your proxy state attacked us. And I believe that Trita is just being logical when he says, if I'm Iran, I'm thinking when we did nothing, when we created no nuclear weapons, the result was Israel bombing us and attacking us and then getting its big brother, the United states, to drop 3,000 pound bombs on our enrichment facilities. If I'm Iran, I understand that the only way to prevent that from happening in the future is to get nuclear weapons. And so what Donald Trump has done is he has made it more likely, as Trita Parsi, the expert on these matters, said, it is made, he's made it more likely that they will obtain nuclear weapons. And I'll give you one more piece of evidence that that is likely true because North Korea has nuclear weapons. Why? In large part likely, because in their neighborhood, the United States dropped bombs at the end of World War II on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan. And so if you're North Korea and you've been at war with us, the Korean non declared war, which was not a declared war, but was a war that was nonetheless waged by the United States against a country that had not attacked us, Korea, a country that was partitioning against itself and in the midst of a civil war. But we decided to get involved, North Korea said the only way to prevent the United States from attacking us is to get nukes. And they were right because we are highly unlikely to Ever attack North Korea because they have nukes. India and Pakistan, long at odds, lots of vicious hatred between these two countries. Do you know why? They're unlikely to ever go to war against each other, despite their horrible, you know, disputes and disagreements. They used to, you know, Pakistan broke off from India. They despise each other. They have differences of religion, differences of culture, but they're probably never going to go to war because they both have nukes. Another country that used to have nukes that no longer has them is Ukraine. Ukraine, which is why the right calls them the Ukraine. Ukraine was where many of the nuclear weapons owned by the Soviet Union used to be. And when Ukraine broke off from the Soviet Union in the 1990s, when they finally achieved their freedom, they were told they could not keep their nukes. So they let them go. They got rid of their nukes. And you know what happened? They got invaded by Russia a generation later because they have no deterrent against Russia because they are not a nuclear power. And so Russia felt free to attack them because they no longer had their nuclear weapons. One more country that used to have nukes that no longer does is South Africa. South Africa, with the help of Israel, became the lone nuclear power on the African continent. When they were a white controlled country, when they were an apartheid nation, South Africa was a nuclear power with the help of Israel. The moment they became a black run country, a country controlled by their actual majority, Africans, black Africans, they had to give up their nukes. Nelson Mandela was not trusted with nuclear weapons, but Donald Trump is. Nelson Mandela was not trusted with nuclear weapons. Bibi Netanyahu is. And I will note one more thing. Even Netanyahu and the nation he leads does not submit itself to the inspections process that other nuclear powers, including the United States, do. They do not subject themselves to the iaea, which is the very agency that is demanding to inspect Iran's nuclear arsenal and that they submitted to allow to be inspected. They have now announced that they may back out of that agreement. And so the result of what we've seen Donald Trump do, his folly, his lie to his voters when he said he would stay out of stupid wars, the result of that is likely that Iran pulls out of the iaea, pulls out of the international agreements that kept them from enriching to full nuclear weapons capability, Russia has already said, we're here for you. Iran, it's their ally, and they apparently like Iran more than they like Donald Trump. And they really liked Donald Trump because he is quite a good puppet for them. But we have now essentially made the Middle east, that region, far more dangerous and far more likely to have multiple nuclear powers. Because the logical reaction of a country that has been bombed for no reason, having provoked no one, the likely reaction is to get nuclear weapons so that you will not be attacked again. I want to bring in, and I don't know if our guest is available, but I hope that he's available. I want to bring in Akbar Shahid. Ahmed Akmar is a really terrific journalist at the Huffington Post. Okay, we're going to wait to bring him in, so when he comes in, we'll bring him in. But I want to make sure that you all are very clear about another important aspect of this situation that I think is really, really important to understand, and that is our history with Iran. This is. You know, there was an NBC headline that said that this, for the first time, the United States directly attacked Iran. That's actually not quite tr. In 1957, John Foster Dulles, I believe there were two Dulles brothers. One was the head of the CIA, and the other, John, was the. Was the Secretary of State, Alan Dulles and John Foster Dulles. One of them has the Dulles airport named after them. But back in 1957, they helped to overthrow the duly elected government of Iran. The duly elected leader of Iran was named Mossadek, Mr. Mosaddeq. And he demanded an audit of the British Petroleum Company, which we now call bp, which was mining for oil or searching for oil, drilling for oil inside of Iran, which is one of the most oil rich countries on earth. And when he demanded that audit, the reaction of the British and the Americans, who believed that they had a right to control the oil under the soil of Iran, was to refuse to allow this inspection. And then when he said, fine, if you won't let us inspect, we will nationalize our oil. Our oil will belong to the Iranian people. The United States CIA overthrew him. He wound up sitting in a prison for the rest of his life because we overthrew his government, leaving in place the Shah of Iran, Shah Raza Pahlevi, who was before that a toothless Persian faux king, but who after that became a dictator, our dictator. It's something that we did all over the world under the Dulles brothers. They did it in the Congo, they did it in Chile. They did it all over the world because there was a belief in the west, and I believe there still is a belief in the west that is the west that gets to decide who has power, who has oil, who has resources, and who has freedom. We make the decision. And if you don't do as we say, if you don't obey us, we may overthrow your leaders and we may also bomb you. I want to thank all the folks who have joined and joined Team tjrsjt. I see just joined. Thank you so much for becoming a member. You see the little emoji dancing for you. The emojis will dance for you if you become a member. We do love that. I want to go back and I want to thank Maria's Products, who is also a member of the Team TJRS family. What that means if you join Team tjrs, you become a member. We're going to plan some members only chats because I know you guys have questions and we're going to allow our, our team members to exclusively chat with me. We're going to build up to a critical mass of members and then we're going to launch some, some. What do they call them? Ask me anything. So we're going to let you guys chat with me and I think that's going to be fun. I'm an old radio girl, so I do love, I love to chat with y' all. Let me bring in our guest. His name is Akbar Shahid Ahmed of the Huffington Post. Terrific journalist. He's covering all of this. Ahmed, thanks for being on the show.
- [15:37]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Thanks for having me, Joy.
- [15:38]
Joy Reid
Thank you. Okay, so Akbar, talk to me about where we are right now. I read earlier from and let me just say I actually really dislike the reading from Donald Trump's silly posts. I think this is an awful way to do news and I think it's a terrible development in our industry that we get our, our, our official statements from Donald Trump's stupid social media. I think it's insane that this is something we do. But there we are. This is where we are. He announced on his silly social media that there's now a ceasefire. Is there any evidence that that's true?
- [16:10]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Not firm evidence. There's some. You know, the Israeli government has issued a statement saying that during punishing str in Iran and we know that they are bombing Iran as we speak right now. So they are currently bombing Tehran. The Iranian government has not denied that there's a ceasefire, but they haven't confirmed that it's true. So looking at the Israeli pattern of escalation before de escalation and looking at the fact that the Iranians haven't denied, it's possible something was close. But I think it seems likely right now that Trump maybe jumped the gun and talks were happening. But, you know, he was so eager to be seen as this peacemaker, you know, he, he wants the Nobel Peace Prize. It's a fixation for him. So he went ahead and went on truth. Social.
- [16:57]
Joy Reid
Bombing a country that has not attacked you and then announcing it's a ceasefire is a hell of a way to try to get the Nobel Peace Prize. That would be like punching someone in the face and then handing them a band aid and wanting gratitude. We attacked them, they didn't attack us. What would he be getting a Nobel Peace Prize for? Cleaning up his own mess. I mean, I don't even understand it, but I do understand that that is a Donald Trump thing. He's jealous of Barack Obama. Barack Obama has a Nobel Prize and he wants one, too. Can you talk about the lead up to this foolishness that we've seen, this tomfoolery? If I was going to put it in the most inane terms, prior to Saturday, Donald Trump was saying that he was going to give it two weeks. He wanted you. You will find out in two weeks what he was going to do. And he seemed to be actively talking to the Iranians about settling this issue of their nuclear material. What was going on leading up to this strike.
- [17:55]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
So President Trump, after ripping up Obama's 2015 era deal with Iran, he had said, I won't have my own deal. He'd appointed his personal friend, this real estate businessman, Steve Wyckoff, sent him off and actually pursued US Iranian direct negotiations. But what we saw, joy, was that Trump shifted the goalposts in terms of the US So he actually went from saying, we'll pursue something similar to the Obama era deal to saying, I want a deal that is even more restrictive on Iran and than Obama's deal. And that became a kind of sticking point for the Iranians, where you reached a point where they were kind of taking their time. And it's important to remember the Obama era Iran nuclear deal took more than three years to negotiate and then was approved by Congress and the UN Security Council. Donald Trump gave up on peacemaking efforts four months in and instead pursued US Bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities. So that's kind of the lead up to where we got where Trump had as he was saying, I want to have a deal with the Iranians, he did hold back Netanyahu, the Israeli leader who had wanted to bomb Iran for a long time. Trump twice told him, we're not going to do it, don't do it. We're talking to the Iranians. And that's really striking because what that shows us is that none of this was forced. This was a choice. It was a choice to abandon diplomacy. It was, it was a choice to not use the US Leverage over Israel. And in June, he said, netanyahu, go ahead. And that's kind of where we are now, is that Netanyahu has gotten what he's always wanted. Trump's own goal and what experts say is quite important for global stability, of getting that deal. So we're not in crisis after crisis. That's further away.
- [19:44]
Joy Reid
Do you have any sense of what triggering action? Did something happen between this statement that we were going to do two weeks and this almost immediate shift toward bombing? Did something happen on the day that.
- [19:58]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
He, that he said two weeks? He did have lunch with Steve Bannon, who is the right wing commentator and kind of icon of the MAGA movement. I actually was at breakfast with him last week where he was railing against this idea that Trump would pursue a war and was saying, no, we America firsters, we didn't vote for Trump for this. Right. So I think Trump, as diplomats say, as officials in his own administration say, fans of his, say he listens to the last person who was in the room with him. Right. And so Trump issued that statement soon after seeing Bannon. But I think, Joy, it's so important to put this in the context of, of course, it's Trump's really dubious decision making, but it's also where the US Foreign policy establishment has been leaning for a very long time. So if Trump just wasn't, was wavering, the easier option was to pull the trigger because there was already a US Military buildup. His commanders were saying it, Netanyahu wanted it, the targets were selected. And so I think that's where he just, he's not a patient person, he's not someone who has pursued long term strategies in a lot of conflicts. This was available to him and he thought it makes him look strong. I think certainly he was able to see, and you saw J.D. vance, you saw headset come out on Sunday and say what an incredible success, what an amazing military leader President Trump is. So that's what he wants to hear. But the actual roots of this, Iran's nuclear enrichment, which did increase because Trump abandoned the nuclear deal, all of that material, all that expertise and a lot of that infrastructure is, is still there.
- [21:41]
Joy Reid
Right? And you know, Chita Parsi has said to us that not only is it still there, but Iran has now been incentivized to get a bomb because, you know, if Israel is estimated to have maybe up to 90 nuclear weapons. Nobody really knows because again, they don't submit themselves to inspections, which is really wild. If you're Iran, you're only the only way to prevent Israel from threatening to bomb you again or threatening to attempt regime change, which Trump also tweeted it posted recently. Regime change. He's. He went full George W. Bush. The only way to stop that is have a bomb. Go ahead.
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Akbar Shahid Ahmed
No, but, but earlier today he went full, full Bush. You know, I mean, literally, I think less than 12 hours before the ceasefire announcement.
- [22:32]
Joy Reid
Who is Donald Trump listening to at this point? Because it can't be Pete Hegseth. Pete Hegsett is a television person. He has no experience as Secretary of Defense and he's quite busy restoring Confederate traitor names to our army bases. So he's got a lot on his plate and doing a lot of hearings where he tries to defend it. Who is he listening to?
- [22:51]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Trump Hexag is definitely very interested in the culture war stuff. I did a big piece last week on Eric Guerrilla, who is the top US Military commander in the Middle East.
- [23:02]
Joy Reid
That's the guy nicknamed the Guerrilla.
- [23:04]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Precisely. He was the chief commander also under Biden. And so in that period under Biden, post October 7, as the US was escalating support for Israel to unprecedented levels for the pummeling of Gaza and then Lebanon and then occupation of Syria, Guerilla was the person overseeing all that. What I heard from officials who worked with him in that period were two interesting things. One, of course, US Officials are close with Israel. It is a partner. It's a long standing ally. Kurilla, even by the standards of his peers in the US Government, was considered extremely close. One official said to me, he had information about what the Israelis were thinking and wanting to do before anyone else in our government. So that tells you a lot about his closeness. And then there's the reality that he is on his way out. This is his legacy issue. He had gotten really into this idea of the Israeli plan to reshape the region and he's leaving office in a couple of months. What we know from other reporting is that Kurilla has a direct line to the Oval Office. If you remember, Trump dismissed the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, CQ Brown, and put in someone at a very lower level. This is not someone experienced in that position. Kurilla has been in his job for years and has been quite pro Israel, quite hawkish. I think he's a, he's a big Advisor. I think J.D. vance to an extent is an advisor. But what we've seen from Vance and Rubio is that they will turn on a dime. Right. I mean, their primary goal is fealty to Donald Trump. So I think if you're thinking about who's in his ear and who has interests, it's Korilla. It's to some extent pro Israel. Jonas. It's also Steve Adam. It's also maybe Tucker Carlson. We don't know that people who present themselves as icons of this MAGA movement. But what I think is so interesting is that the Republican spin machine tonight is in overdrive already. Right. So you've seen Tom Massie, who's the only Republican member of Congress willing to rein in war powers, has already said, okay, President Trump got a ceasefire. Maybe we don't need to talk about Congress declaring war, which is there's no ceasefire yet. You know.
- [25:20]
Joy Reid
Let'S talk about Mr. Carilla and his influence. First of all, do you get the sense, because there is a school of thought that is out there that says that this is an unchanged policy, that if Biden had been president, maybe if Kamala had been president, it still might have happened. Do you have any reason to believe that?
- [25:41]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
What I can see is General Kurilla prepared these plans under the Biden administration. The plans for a joint US Israeli strike on Iran, which had been vetoed by every US President, were developed under Biden. And it was not that Biden said yes, but also importantly, he didn't say no. Right. And so that permits that discussion to start happening. I think there's also a general sense of the emboldening of Netanyahu many periods throughout the war, throughout 2024. I mean, we're now almost two years into the war in Gaza. Netanyahu had taught the Americans would pull the plug on him, truly, at some point. Right. And Hamas taught that Israelis in general, as a public thought that it never happened. And so that degree of kind of hubris that was able to build in the Netanyahu government was really clear. And the Biden era was able to shift the goalposts. I mean, notably, if you think about it, we don't hear anymore about the Israeli hostages in Gaza. Their hostage family movement feels abandoned. And Israel has actually now started to call the Gaza war a secondary front, which is truly remarkable because it's still an active war. I mean, dozens of people killed every day. So that period certainly got a separate, I will say, joy. You know, I'm writing a book and working on a book about the Biden administration's choices on Gaza and the extent to which People don't want to acknowledge that break. I was speaking with a former Biden administration official, high level, earlier today and I pushed them to talk about how did your Gaza policy bring us here? Because you're talking about international law, the UN Charter, that conflict blew through, all those things. So do you guys have any remorse? Regret it's not there from the Biden.
- [27:23]
Joy Reid
Folks and to stay on this for just a moment because it is so clear, I think what you're saying, that Bibi Netanyahu has been thoroughly emboldened, not by Trump, but before that, multiple American citizens or dual citizens were killed. Shreen Abu Akla, the journalist, who is an American, who had an American passport, teenagers there were just recently two, I believe, 17 year old boys. No response from the United States. No sense that you cannot kill our citizens on your soil, in your war, or there will be consequences. Nothing, no consequences. They were free to do whatever they wanted. The United States walked away from an abandoned UNRA at the demand of Mr. Netanyahu because he wanted it done. And the number of dead in Gaza is so staggering and so shocking. And the children under buildings, under rubble, without legs, without arms and who are now starving to death, all done before January 20, 2025. And so I wonder to what extent there is a sense in the foreign policy community that perhaps it was inevitable that an unrestrained, expansionist Bibi Netanyahu who's been gobbling up territory in the west bank probably will put settlers back in Gaza. At this point, we don't know that he would have done it, that he was going to do it anyway. He was just waiting for the right moment and to flatter Trump enough to get him to look the other way and that he would have done it regardless. I mean, I mean, I don't know about Kamala Harris, but I think she had a different view. But I don't know your thoughts.
- [29:02]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
I think she had a different view. I think Netanyahu, though it was step by step. And you know, we have to remember that the dress rehearsal for what we're seeing happened under Biden, specifically with Iran, in that the Netanyahu government bombed Iran's consulate in Damascus, killed Iranian generals, then they bombed Tehran, killing Hamas's leader. And the US Said in both those scenarios, clear breaches of sovereignty that the US Would never accept for itself or for Israel. It said, we're going to defend Israel. And that's the important part of the policy that I think gets overlooked because so many people are focusing on is Trump helping Netanyahu bomb Iran the important thing is even before Trump decided to do that, he was shielding Israel from any consequences of its actions, as did Biden. Right. Because there is constant missile interception. Now, some Israelis have been killed by the Iranian barrages, but generally Israel is shielded by the US Its weapons are replenished by the US and there is not a conversation and there is a responsibility there for Congress. Too many lawmakers, including Democrats, did pass Biden's resupply of Israel military aid. They did stop for themselves from questioning the Biden administration. And that kind of goes to the question too of how do we de escalate now? Because where Netanyahu has proved a lot of US Laws on the books about you will not use our weapons to kill our citizens, to commit international law violations to create forced starvation, Netanyahu proved those laws don't matter. So if you are the Iranians and the US Is coming to you even in a scenario where there is a ceasefire now and they're saying, okay, we're going to sign a nuclear deal with you, is it worth the paper it's written on? Right. Because are those any, is any agreement just your mood?
- [30:50]
Joy Reid
I want to talk about the why. And I don't know if you know this about Mr. Kurilla, but we did see in this extraordinary Tucker Carlson interview with Senator Ted Cruz. What I thought and we talked about on this show was I thought the most kind of frightening thing that Ted Cruz said in a nearly two hour interview that his policy prescriptions and policy attitudes toward Israel are not to do with American foreign policy needs and the primary sort of issues that the American people care about. It is that the Bible in his view said that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed. And therefore because he is a Bible believing Christian, he, he believes he must support whatever Israel does, including spying on us. He will look the other way at all of it because of Dominionism. Essentially his father is a Dominionist, wants the United States to be ruled as a Christian theocracy and he expressed what sounded like Dominionist beliefs. Is that the reason that Bibi Netanyahu has so much power in this country that there is a evangelical right wing Christian base inside of the Republican Party, but also maybe some inside of maybe the Democratic Party that believe that there is some sort of godly calling on them to let him do whatever he wants?
- [32:11]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Well, I think beating Netanyahu's distaste and disgust for the Diaspora Jewish community cannot be overstated. He's been really clear about it. And what we See from American Jews is they are not overwhelmingly supportive of Netanyahu. So I think a lot of the pro Israel policy, crushing of dissent on the Gaza war is all framed as the battle against anti Semitism. But if you look at who the champions are, yes, very often they will be evangelical Christians, not Jewish Americans, you know, not anyone sort of intimately connected to the issue. So I think there's a, there's a firm root of that belief. I think we can't forget that in the Trump coalition, that's a major factor. It's also a major factor among donors. Right. People will often talk about Mary Madison, who's a major Trump donor, who is Jewish, very pro Israel. But there's a whole constellation of additional Trump donors who are not Jewish, who may have very, very firm pro Israel beliefs. And this is where the factionalism in the Republican Party is quite interesting because you have on the flip side, the Charles Cokes of the party who are pretty skeptical of Israel. Right. Pretty skeptical of the foreign policy move. So that's creating a clash in terms of Washington, broadly, I think Democrats just don't want to have that conversation. They, they, they find it really scary. Even Lomi, because even ambitious Democrats, some of whom I've encouraged, I've asked to speak for my book. They'll, they'll want to go on background. They'll say, oh, I'm literally losing connection. I had a Lomika do this to me last week.
- [33:45]
Joy Reid
I can't hear you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Akbar, I'm sorry. You're breaking frightening. Last question to you before I let you go. Any, any word on from the Iranian side of diplomatically, do they seem to want to stand down or do they seem to be spoiling for war, maybe mining the Straits of Hormuz, closing off that oil supply route, something like that.
- [34:11]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
You know, I've been, I was connecting with some Iranian sources earlier today, and what I, the mood I got that was so interesting was it goes back a little to your point about deadrint and nuclear weapons. Right. Of even if they kind of agree to an accord right now, they're going back and thinking we could be hit at any time. Israel is extremely unpredictable. And this is something I've heard not just from Iranians, but Arab officials in the region. Right. Who have felt, okay, what Israel has showed us is anyone who they think is too strong in the region is a potential target. I mean, Turkey is raised as a country that could be at risk. Egypt, you've seen Israel as a master to The US Criticize Egypt, try to cut off aid to Egypt. So there's a real anxiety. And I think Iranians may not be spoiling for war at this moment, but I think later in the Trump presidency, and it's kind of the scariest place for that to happen, given the decision making process. But further down the line in the Trump presidency, this Iran issue is indisputably coming back because they are fortifying their defenses and they know that they'll be under attack.
- [35:14]
Joy Reid
Again, I think that is a rational way to look at it. And this is not to say that that regime is not horrible, horrible to its own people. But that does not mean that we ought to go to war against them and provoke a war against them and commit acts of war against them. They haven't done anything to us. Right. I mean, this is the frightening thing, is that we've gone down this road of American presidents simply bombing non white countries, bombing brown countries whenever they feel like it, for whatever reason they feel like it, removing whatever leader they feel like and doing it with it with impunity. And it now appears that Israel has joined the club and it is, it is not a good look.
- [35:50]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
The echoes to Trump's general concentration of power are so indisputable. Joy. I mean, when you look at the issue, the notice that came out from the Homeland Security Department today, they literally said Iranian nationals may be forming terror cells. You know, and this is. Yes. Is there a risk of domestic terror? Of course people should be aware. The Iranian regime has shown interest in that. But to villainize, demonize foreigners, that's echoing Bush and it's echoing the broader project of this presidency.
- [36:19]
Joy Reid
Yes, it is interesting. I never thought of Donald Trump as a neoconservative, but here we are. Welcome to the neoconservative club. Donald John Trump, you are now exactly what you claim to despite. Well done. Akbar Shahid Ahmed, I can't wait till your book comes out. Please come back often.
- [36:39]
Akbar Shahid Ahmed
Thank you so much.
- [36:40]
Joy Reid
Thank you. Well, that was frightening. But I think it's really important. We like to say scaring is caring on this show. I want to take just a moment to thank everyone who's joined while we have been in this conversation. Akbar Shaheed Ahmed, you can find his incredible journalism at the Huffington Post. I want to thank. Is this here Patrina Bloodworth, thank you very much for joining Team tjrs. I want to thank Carleen Cherry. Hey, Carlene Cherry, thank you for joining Team tjrs. Kiana Maria, thank you for joining the club. We love it. We Love it when you guys join. We've got Top Dog Canine foundation, also a member of Team tjrs. I'm looking at the chat. I see you guys in there. Thank you very much. We got somebody named Sisters. All say they knew Trump was crazy. Thank you. This is frightening. And I think anybody who lived through the Iraq war madness, and I got out of news because of the Iraq War, because I was so opposed, not only to the war, but to the way the American media seemed to be rooting for it and shaking their pom poms for it. I think the frightening thing is how easy it is to push an American president into bombing other countries. And we talk about Russia and their ugly aggression toward Ukraine. The. But it's kind of difficult for us to get the moral authority to argue against what they're doing when we're allowing our friends to do it. And then when, when our friends do it, we join in. The United States is the number one donor to the Israeli economy. We give them $3 billion a year. That should give us leverage. And if we say, hey, you can't use our bombs to bomb a country that didn't attack you, they really probably should say, okay, whatever you say, friend. But instead, it appears that Donald Trump can easily be flattered, coerced, tricked. Apparently, Bibi Netanyahu made a case that Iran was trying to assassinate him in all sorts of cases to try to get him to do what they wanted done. This is not a war that any American voted for. I honestly, and I've said this before, I don't even believe that Trump voters voted for it. I do believe our next guest is in place. I'm going to go ahead and try to bring him in. Yeah. Abraham Russell is. Is a former ambassador. Abraham Rasool in the house. Let's see if we can bring him in. He's not announced. Okay. We're going to try to get him in. I decided that I wanted to bring on bring back Abraham Rasool, who was a fantastic guest. He was one of our first guests on the Joy Reid show. Because I really think we need to broaden this conversation and have more context in this conversation, because this is not just about the war or whatever we're calling it with Iran. That was started not by Iran, but apparently by Israel. And then we jumped into it. But there's a bigger conversation about who is allowed to have nuclear weapons and who is told no. And one of the countries that used to have nuclear weapons and that then was told they may not have them, they must give them up. Was the country of South Africa. South Africa was a nuclear power when it was white controlled. And then when it became black controlled, when it be. When it fell under the control of its African majority, its black African majority, they gave up their nukes. Joining me now is our friend, Ambassador Abraham Rasool. Thank you for coming back. I know it is super early or late or early where you are in South Africa. Thank you, sir. Ken, can you walk us through how it is that South Africa ceased to be a nuclear power?
- [40:11]
Abraham Rasool
Look, I think it's interesting to start with, and it's great to be with you again, Joy, even at this hour in South Africa. But it's interesting to start with how we became a nuclear power. We became a nuclear power with a direct collaboration between Israel in the 1960s and the apartheid South Africa in the 1960s. South Africa was rich in uranium. Israel needed that uranium from us, bought about 550 tons of it and developed their nuclear program. And then in exchange, gave South Africa the technology, the materials and some of the people to develop these nuclear weapons in South Africa. And so that's what South Africa lorded over the African continent and gave it its superpower to force agreements from limo in Mozambique and so forth. So come 1989, 1990, and it's very clear that Nelson Mandela was going to be freed, that there was going to be an ANC government. And suddenly there is this push from FW De Klerk, who is the last apartheid president, as well as the United States and Europe, that South Africa must not have this nuclear, this stockpile of highly enriched uranium and nuclear bombs because the fear of it falling into the hands of what the west had designated as a terrorist movement, the African National Congress. And Nelson Mandela was designated as a terrorist. The dread of that nuclear bomb being in black hands was a breach too far. It also, however, coincided with the ANC's own commitment against nuclear weapons. And so there was therefore, after 1990, as Nelson Mandela was on his way to the presidency, there was this mutual agreement to dismantle South Africa's nuclear weapons to store the highly enriched uranium that we had, which we still have today. And then, and ironically, we export some of that enriched uranium, for example, to the United States as nuclear medical isotopes, that that is now used for peaceful purposes in the United States. So that's the story of nuclear power and the dismantling of the nuclear weapons. But most important, the dread of nuclear weapons being in the hands of black people like Nelson Mandela.
- [43:08]
Joy Reid
And it seems to me that the west is making some Very interesting, intriguing choices about who should, who shall be a nuclear power and who shall not. It isn't just black countries like South Africa, but it's also Ukraine and deciding that the way to achieve peace is to have a small number of hegemonic countries that get to have nukes. And everyone else is being told no. When you hear countries have this incredible unanimity, from Australia to England to France, you go around the world. I've been just scrolling through the headlines and they're all saying Iran must not be allowed to have a nuclear weapon. As a country that was gave up its nuclear weapons. How do you, what do you make of that?
- [43:56]
Abraham Rasool
Look, I think that there is no proof that Iran is days away from having a nuclear weapon, although there is consensus that Iran has enriched nuclear material. But you see what has happened is that nuclear weapons have become the instruments of equilibrium in the world. If there's tension between Pakistan and India and each has a nuclear weapon, they hold each other at the neck and that's how they find equilibrium. The same with the old United States, Soviet Union and so forth. What's in the Middle east is a disequilibrium. Israel has about 90 nuclear weapons. No one else is allowed to have it. And that is the dread of Iran having a nuclear weapon because it then cancels out Israel's hegemony and domination of the region because it's, despite its size and its proclaimed victimhood and all of those kind of things, the thing that it holds over the region is its possession of nuclear weapons. And the, the, the, the mindset is that if Iran were to have a nuclear weapon, it then brings the whole region into equilibrium. And then you cannot just do what you've done over the last 12 days, go and bomb any place that you want to. You even then change the calculus on what happens in, in Gaza, in Palestine, you then decide whether Israel can be within kilometers of Damascus and all of those things, then the whole calculus in the region changes and hence the consensus that Iran should not have a nuclear weapon. And they going so far now as to say Iran should not even possess highly enriched uranium. And may I end on this note. When I was ambassador the first time, even under President Obama, there was enormous pressure on me to persuade my government in South Africa to hand over all its highly enriched uranium that it obtained from dismantling our nuclear weapons and handing it over to the United States. My response was very simple. A member of the Non Proliferation Treaty like South Africa, cannot hand over our highly enriched uranium to a country like the United States that is not bound by the rules of that same treaty. You are not a member and therefore you don't deserve to hold what we had. And much the same way, neither Israel nor the United States have the right to speak the language of a body that they are not members of and not accountable to.
- [46:44]
Joy Reid
And not only that, but the United States is the only nation on earth that actually used nuclear weapons on Syria civilians. We did that at the close of World War II, not because we needed to do it to win the war, but if you believe some reports, it was because we wanted to see what it would do. The idea that a country that has dropped nuclear weapons on other on civilians should lecture the world about who ought to hand their nuclear material over and why and where is actually pretty rich. And when it comes to Israel, I still recall as we were covering the post 10-7-just horror show in Gaza and the over the top, even Joe Biden, who is a great friend of Israel, called it over the top reaction of what they did militarily. There were members of, of Bibi Netanyahu's party who were, I hope joking, but who were talking casually about nuking Gaza and that being a solution. Go ahead.
- [47:43]
Abraham Rasool
No, no, absolutely. And so I think that it's precisely the point I made with the United States. We dismantled our weapons. You actually used the weapons not once but twice over one country destroying its absolute infrastructure. And you occasioned the race for nuclear weapons across the world and you made it the weapon of equilibrium. And, and therefore, if you don't want to be dominated by the US you should get a weapon of your own. And therefore the blind eye to white apart in South Africa to having a nuclear weapon so that it could maintain a dominance over the African region. And so I think we are living in a world fraught with hypocrisy. But most importantly, it's also fraught with lies. The lies about Iran possessing nuclear weapons. It was given. It was given the lie by Tulsi Gabbard and the intelligence community of the US Itself. It was given the lie by the International Atomic Energy association who said yes, Iran was in infraction with its nuclear program but did not have nuclear weapons. And so I think we are now in a situation where I would even go so far as to say in a few weeks we may predict that the reason that there is no nuclear radiation emanating out of what the USA bombed over the weekend at Forno and so forth is because there may not be the nuclear materials underground that they were saying either it was moved, or it proves the point that the degree of enrichment that they was using as the pretext for bombing Iran did not exist.
- [49:42]
Joy Reid
I would not be surprised either. Abraham Rasool, I'm going to let you get some rest. Thank you so much. We so appreciate you. We are sorry to wake you up so early in the morning slash late at night, but we just genuinely appreciate your intellect, your your historical facts and your assistance in helping us understand the understandable. Thank you, sir.
- [50:02]
Abraham Rasool
Thank you very much, Joy.
- [50:03]
Joy Reid
Thank you. And I want to go ahead and let you all get your comments in because I think there's a lot of fear when it comes to whether we're going to end up in World War Three. I think a lot of people are very concerned about that. I'm looking in the chat right now and I'm seeing a lot of commentary on that vein and the idea that the United States and that Donald Trump in particular, let's talk about him, when he ran for president, he was very clear. This is one of the few things he said that was actually crystal clear. No new wars, no dumb wars. A lot of his supporters were very, very clear that this was why they supported him. There were people who said that they didn't even like Donald Trump, but they feared that the Biden administration were warmongers and wanted to go to war in the Middle east and wanted to increase war. There are people who were angry about Ukraine. They were angry that we were supporting Ukraine and arming them against Russia, and they wanted nothing to do with it because of a fear that we would be sucked into a war in Ukraine, between Ukraine and Russia. A lot of people voted for Trump, calling him the peace candidate. And now what we're seeing is a president who promised peace, bombing a country that did not attack us and then saying they should sue for peace. Now, that is literally like shooting someone in the face and then handing them a band Aid and saying, let's be friends now. You know, let's have peace. You did it. They didn't do it. And let's be very clear, Iran, that regime again. And I've said it at the top of this podcast, and I'll say it again, is what it is in large part because of us, because we made the decision to overthrow the duly elected, democratically elected government and put a dictator on top of them. And they didn't want it. And they decided that they would prefer to have the mullahs than to have our dictator, the shah of Iran, and the Dulles brothers did that. And now we are where we are. And, you know, if Bibi Netanyahu was to get his way and get a puppet government in charge in Iran, a government that would subordinate itself to his wishes, do what they're told, behave and be nice boys, good boys and girls, that would eventually be overthrown, too. That puppet government of his dreams would also be overthrown. We shall recall that in Ukraine for a while, Russia had a puppet government. They placed a puppet government in charge in Ukraine and eventually it was ushered out, it was cashiered out because people really don't like being ruled by puppet governments. And eventually those governments are removed or overthrown. I want to take a moment just to welcome a few more people to the, to the club. This is J J, G C. Welcome to Team tjrs. I want to thank Shane Xavier, also a member and also a member of the readers. That means. And the readers are people who are subscribers, both here. They're their club members here. And they're also a member over at the joyan reid, joyanreid.com which is also, which is called, we call that. What do we call it? Joyce House, John Craig, also a new member. Amy Avery, Avery Jean or Avery Jean. Thank you very much for joining Team tjrs. I want to thank Sharon's suite. What is this? I don't know. Is this jewelry store? Are you a jeweler? We want to know what you do. Thank you very much for joining the team as well. And I think I thanked Kyana Maria as well. What do you all think? Do you guys fear that we are headed for World War I? War 3? How are you preparing yourselves? What are you doing to try to process the idea that we may soon be in war with Iran or maybe there is a ceasefire. That's what Donald Trump says. Donald Trump would love to have a Nobel Peace Prize. His goal has been to have a Nobel Prize since Barack Obama won the Nobel. And he believes that if he starts a war and then ends the war, maybe he'll get the peace prize. That is his goal. I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. But I do know that if I was a Trump voter, and it's hard for me to imagine being a Trump voter, but if I was a Trump voter and I voted for him primarily because he promised not to start new dumb wars, if he promised to stay out of wars that were not necessary and to go across the world to bomb other countries when we had no business being over there, if I voted for him, thinking he was going to just lower the price of eggs and make my life more affordable. If I voted for him thinking he was going to give me a stimmy, which I tried to tell you he wasn't going to give you a stimmy. But if I voted for him thinking that I was going to get economic relief, thinking that I was going to get an opportunity to get up off the mat economically because my rent is too high and food prices are too high, gas prices are too high. And, and I believe for whatever reason that because he was on the Apprentice, he knew how something about the economy that Vice President Harris didn't. I think right now I would feel betrayed. Marjorie Taylor Greene has tweeted that, at least for now, she seems to feel betrayed. I'm sure she'll get over it once she is whipped back into shape by the MAGA cult and told that she is never to descend from the God that is Donald Thomas Massie seems to be getting himself back in line because he doesn't want to be attacked by the MAGA base. So he seems to be getting himself back in line. I want to look at. I want to also big up. Naima Moussadiq. Thank you very much for joining Team tjrs. The Magnas are trying to reconstitute themselves and get back in good order with Donald Trump because no one ever wants to be on his bad side. Bad things happen. You get a lot of threats and anger and rage from his base when you go against him. But the reality is he really did promise no World War iii and he accused Kamala Harris of preparing to start World War iii. A lot of people who voted for Donald Trump voted for him thinking that he was going to be the candidate of peace. But it's sort of like voting for Nixon back in the 70s thinking he was the peace candidate. It almost never works out. People promise no wars because they want you to vote for them. They promise no new wars because they want your votes. They want your support. But what we've now discovered is that when Donald Trump said that, he either didn't mean it or he didn't understand it, or he just hadn't made the deal with Bibi Netanyahu. And once that deal was made, well, he started bombing Iran. If you're enjoying this content, please hit that like button. We really appreciate it. Please hit that Share button. We want to let everyone know that we are here and we're going to be joining you guys live more than not here at 7pm We've also got some really, really amazing interviews that we taped earlier. If you didn't get a chance to see my interview with Trita Parsi that is up live right now on the Joy Reid show page on our YouTube channel. I will note my background. You will see that I don't have my pretty tjrs fabulous background behind me. That is because we are on location on today. I'm coming to you live from New York City. The brick indicates I'm in New York City. So please be patient. We are, we are, we are on a sec a different set. But yes, we are on location. We're going to be on location all this week. On Friday, we're going to be in the great city of Jackson, Mississippi. We are going there on the occasion of the 100th birthday of one Medgar Wiley Evers. Because while the Trump regime and Pete Hegseth have decided that Medgar Evers is not worthy to be celebrated or to have a ship in his name and that any black woman, gay, trans or non white Christian person is unworthy to be celebrated in our United States military, he wants them all to go away to get out. We still understand these are people worth celebrating. So I'm going to be in Jackson, Mississippi. If you guys are in Jackson, please holler, please try to come on out. I'm going to post on Joannread.com which is the substack page where I'm going to be. So you guys please come out and check me out when I am in Jackson, Mississippi. That is going to be really great. Those who are saying welcome New York City. Thank you very much. I always love being in the city. This is my home city. This is where I'm from. From Right. I'm not in the east flat was right now. But I am originally from New York. So always great to be in New York. So please go ahead and subscribe. It is free to subscribe. You do not have to pay to become a subscriber. And I want to thank everybody who has already subscribed. We got to a million streams in record time on the Joy Reid Show. We're getting like a silver plaque. Isn't that wild? They send you a plaque. It's like when you get room Raiders. I got a 10 on room Raiders and they sent me an actual like award. Like when back in the day, during the COVID days when everybody was looking at everybody's, you know, their interiors of their homes. I promise you we're getting a plaque. And YouTube sends these plaques to people who get to a million streams, but they typically don't get to a million streams in a week. Which we did. Barbara Lee, welcome to Team tjrs. We love to have all of you. And as I mentioned before, when we get to a critical mass of team team members, we're going to do a chat just for you. We're going to talk with just you guys. We want to do a chat just for our Team TJRS members and y' all let me know what you guys want to chat about. So we will do that. We had one more guest that we were teeing up, but he didn't make it. He didn't make it in. And I actually am going to go ahead and wrap this up for now. I want to thank everybody for joining tonight. Please hit that share button. Hit that like button. Tell a friend I always say telephone just to piss them off. Because you never know, there might be a MAGA who wants to be decultified. They may want some actual real good information and they may also want to avoid World War iii. Maybe this is the wake up call that people needed. If it wasn't the mass deportations and snatching people off the street, who knows, maybe it'll be war with Iran. Thank you all very much for tuning in. I appreciate, love each and every one of you. Thanks for all the love, the congratulations. I'm sitting here reading the chat. I'm like scanning it and reading it. I appreciate everyone, whether you are a member or not or just up in here hanging out with me. Thank you friends. I so appreciate you guys. Have a wonderful rest of your evening and let's stay out of stupid wars. This Nathia Nalthia, welcome to Team tjrs. A late joiner, but a joiner nonetheless. Much love everyone. Have a great night and I will see you on Wednesday, okay?