Episode Overview
Podcast: The Joy Reid Show
Episode: Unpacking Christian Nationalism ft. Dr. Robert P. Jones
Date: October 31, 2025
Host: Joy-Ann Reid
Guest: Dr. Robert P. Jones, Founder and President, Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI)
This thought-provoking episode features Dr. Robert P. Jones, an expert on religion, demography, and the shifting American religious landscape. Joy-Ann Reid invites Dr. Jones to dissect Christian nationalism—its roots, its enduring power, and its current role in driving American politics, culture wars, and democratic backsliding. Their conversation weaves personal narratives, historical insights, and sobering public opinion data, exposing the intersection of white Christian identity, race, power, and national myth.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. What is Christian Nationalism? (00:41–04:00)
- Joy Reid opens by stating Project 2025, a Trump-era policy blueprint, is deeply interwoven with white Christian nationalist ideology, referencing the architects Russell Vought and Joel Webbin, who openly profess the blending of American identity with exclusionary Christian values.
- Webbin’s extremist views—endorsing violence against migrants and stripping voting rights from women—set the stage for analyzing Christian nationalism as a force reshaping law, policy, and public morality.
Memorable Quote:
“Christian nationalism is not a threat to American democracy. Christian nationalism founded American democracy.”
—Joy Reid [02:58]
2. Dr. Jones' Personal & Cultural Backstory (05:49–14:32)
- Dr. Jones describes growing up Southern Baptist in integrated Mississippi, providing firsthand testimony of how race, religion, and education shaped his worldview. Notably, he recalls how even as schools integrated, deeply rooted racial silence and “conspiracy” persisted in white circles.
- He discusses gradual consciousness shifts regarding race, crediting moments like public school integration and confronting his church’s and denomination’s pro-slavery origins.
Memorable Quotes:
“I feel like I’ve spent most of my adult life trying to get some critical distance enough to kind of stand apart from it, to see it... you were in that bubble. It really is hard to see."
—Dr. Robert P. Jones [08:25]
“The Baptists and Methodists both split in 1845 over slavery. Very clear what that split was about.”
—Dr. Robert P. Jones [13:36]
3. The Public Religion Research Institute: Mission & Alarming Findings (14:47–19:19)
- Dr. Jones details founding PRRI (2009) to measure and publicly report links between religion, culture, and policy.
- Cites two chilling data shifts:
- White evangelicals’ sudden reversal (post-Trump) on "values voting" to embrace expediency over moral character.
- Growing white evangelical support for “concentration camps” for immigrants—with broad indifference to cruelty.
Notable Insight:
“Sometimes numbers can break your heart. It hit me that I’m like, I don’t know that it’s possible to write a question that is too cruel or too violent with regard to immigrants...”
—Dr. Robert P. Jones [18:47]
4. Christian Nationalism, Race, and the Tea Party to MAGA Era (19:19–23:38)
- Joy and Dr. Jones discuss how PRRI’s data refuted the “economic anxiety” narrative about Tea Party and MAGA movements—showing the roots are racial and cultural, not economic.
- Obama’s election/reelection, like Brown v. Board, was a “nuclear event” for many white Christians, shifting their perceived place atop the social hierarchy.
- The majority of white evangelicals, mainline Protestants, and Catholics have consistently backed racial hierarchy and against multiracial democracy.
Memorable Quote:
"[The election of Barack Obama]… It wasn’t a fluke. It wasn’t an accident. It was like, oh, something’s shifted."
—Dr. Robert P. Jones [20:54]
5. Doctrine of Discovery, the Invention of Whiteness, and Deep Historical Roots (23:38–29:36)
- Dr. Jones locates Christian nationalist roots back to the 1493 Doctrine of Discovery, which deemed non-Christian people enemies and justified their dispossession and enslavement.
- Joy and Dr. Jones connect the invention of “whiteness” as a social organizing principle—more valuable and binding than wealth—to the rise of white Christian supremacy.
Notable Exchange:
“Whiteness is more valuable than money. It’s more valuable than a great job.”
—Joy Reid [27:08]
“White people who still have this hold on us that we think of ourselves as being white, we literally don’t know who we are, and that makes us dangerous.”
—Dr. Robert P. Jones [29:24]
6. White Christian Anxiety and the Quest for Power (29:36–31:23)
- Joy and Dr. Jones examine fear and loss of power at the root of white Christian nationalist anger and violence, focusing on perceived entitlement “granted by God.”
- The existential dread: “if we’re not God’s chosen ones, who are we?”
7. The Surge of Political and Physical Violence (31:24–36:07)
- Recent mass shootings, many perpetrated by white men, are discussed as part of a broader radicalization and unraveling—one not openly documented due to active suppression by the DOJ under the Trump administration.
- Past incidents (Dylann Roof, Robert Bowers) and the erasure of their ideological contexts in official narratives are noted.
“I think we have seen like a degradation and a setting of an environment... there’s more to come, unfortunately.”
—Dr. Robert P. Jones [35:04]
8. The Culture War & Erasure of Non-White Histories (36:07–40:13)
- Reid highlights orchestrated campaigns to erase Black, Indigenous, LGBTQ+, and women’s histories from the military, schools, and public spaces, while simultaneously restoring Confederate iconography.
- Dr. Jones stresses that monument-building historically spiked during racial backlash, not after the Civil War, and function to assert white dominance, not “heritage.”
9. Christian Nationalism and the Israel Paradox (47:20–51:27)
- They explore ties between American Christian nationalism and support for Israel’s far-right government. The biblical “spiritual war” narrative unites U.S. white evangelicals with Israeli settler ideology.
- Dr. Jones notes public opinion is rapidly shifting away from unconditional support for Israel outside Christian nationalist circles.
10. Genocidal Legacies—History Repeating Itself (51:27–53:15)
- Dr. Jones warns that the U.S. has a history of “campaigns of genocide”—against Native Americans, now echoed in current anti-immigrant policies and rhetoric.
- He resists rebranding Christian nationalists as simply “religionists,” pushing for Christianity to reckon with its own dark traditions:
“I want Christianity to wrestle with that thread of Christian, because it’s always been there.” [52:38]
11. The Challenge of De-Radicalization & the “Passivity Problem” (53:34–63:26)
- Both agree that progressives underestimate cultural battlefields, focusing too narrowly on policy and ignoring the powerful appeal of white Christian identity.
- The biggest threat: passive bystanders. Only about 30% of Americans qualify as hard Christian nationalists, with 60% opposing those views, but voter disengagement and lack of resistance empower the minority.
Key Quote:
“The biggest group is always the comfortable, the oblivious bystanders ... enough of those people are willing to stand by and let it go that way. And I think that is the central challenge we’re facing.”
—Dr. Robert P. Jones [63:15]
12. Resistance, Allies, and Where We Go from Here (63:26–End)
- Dr. Jones points to acts of moral resistance, such as the Episcopal Church refusing to aid Trump’s racialized immigration policy.
- They end by unpacking the role of white conservative Catholics on the Supreme Court—demographically less extreme than evangelicals, but part of the same nationalist project.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On white Christian support for extremist measures:
“I don’t know that it’s possible to write a question that is too cruel or too violent with regard to immigrants…”
(Dr. Robert P. Jones, 18:58) -
On American myth:
“Christian nationalism is not a threat to American democracy. Christian nationalism founded American democracy.”
(Joy Reid, 02:58) -
On passivity vs. activism:
“The biggest group is always the comfortable, the oblivious bystanders… And I think that is the central challenge we’re facing.”
(Dr. Robert P. Jones, 63:15)
Important Segment Timestamps
- Project 2025 and modern Christian Nationalist rhetoric: 00:41–04:00
- Dr. Jones’ Southern Baptist upbringing, school integration: 05:49–14:32
- PRRI’s founding, alarming data shifts: 14:47–19:19
- Tea Party, MAGA, and racial backlash: 19:19–23:38
- Doctrine of Discovery, invention of “whiteness”: 23:38–29:36
- Anxiety, entitlement, loss of power: 29:36–31:23
- Patterns in white male violence, official erasure: 31:24–36:07
- Erasure of non-white and marginalized histories in public life: 36:07–40:13
- Israel and Christian nationalist global linkages: 47:20–51:27
- Direct talk on America’s genocidal history: 51:27–53:15
- Problem of bystanders and the need for resistance: 61:24–63:26
- Snapshot on white conservative Catholics, the Supreme Court: 65:01–66:49
Tone & Style
The tone is direct, at times blunt, and relentlessly fact-driven, with both Reid and Dr. Jones using plain language to cut through euphemism and address the historical and present-day dilemmas of race, religion, and power. The episode balances anecdote, history, and fresh survey data, frequently deploying memorable analogies and quotes.
Summary: Why Listen to This Episode
This conversation is both a warning and a call to action. It traces Christian nationalism not as a fringe threat, but as a core, persistent, and rapidly ascending ideology shaping everything from immigration raids to mass shootings, from monument debates to Supreme Court judgments. Dr. Jones and Joy Reid deliver not only a crash course in American religious and racial history but an unflinching argument for resistance and a blueprint for engaging bystanders in the urgent work of saving democracy itself.
For more from Dr. Robert P. Jones:
Visit prri.org for survey data and research.
Dr. Jones’ books, including The End of White Christian America, White Too Long, and The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy, are available on shop.joyannreid.com.