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This is Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast the promo and in 30 seconds I'm gonna tell you why. You should check out the show. I the host Scott Aukerman have a lighthearted conversation with famous celebrities like Jon Hamm, Alison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few Things go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians, as well as some new hilarious v Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcasts. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails and place. Sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com podcast NBC 10 Boston news worthy of you. Tonight, serious claims about the defense brought to light during testimony from their own witness. They said that they would charge me with perjury. What else was said on the stand that's also under scrutiny? Those wounds were inflicted as a result of a dog attack. The dog bite expert from Reed's first trial returns to the stand. These are not my words. I'm not really comfortable reading these. Do I have to say these words out loud? Michael Proctor's infamous texts read aloud, but not by the former state police investigator. We take a closer look with our panel of experts. Canton Confidential the Karen Reed murder trial starts right now. In what could arguably be described as the most heated testimony of the defense's case so far, Kelly Deverland, a former Canton police officer and now Boston police officer, took the stand. Good evening, I'm Glenn Jones. JC has the night off. She was working the morning of John o' Keefe's death when his body was found. She was pulled from the field to cover dispatch but what she saw or didn't see on a security camera led to fireworks in the courtroom. Our Melody Mendez will bring us up to speed on today's memorable testimony. Mal. Officer Devers testimony was just fascinating to watch. It really was. Glenn, here's the thing. You know, we know that she was in the dispatch center, as you mentioned. That's essentially the hub for dispatch in a police department. There are phones, there are monitors, which shows surveillance cameras and the video from different parts of the department. So Alan Jackson began with what seemed like pretty basic questioning about the monitors and what they would show. But immediately Devers pushed back and seemed resistant, said she couldn't recall. And things very quickly got heated. Take a look. Do you want to be here today? Officer Kelly Dever, immediately resistant to answering questions from the defense, often with long silences like this one. I don't know why I'm here. I have no connection to this case. At a few points, the judge stepping in, I don't know what that means. So what do you mean you're going to go with yes? Is your answer yes? Yes. I have no relation to this case. But as it turns out, she does. It emerged that Dever was interviewed in 2023 as part of the federal investigation into the case. Did you tell those law enforcement agents on 08-09-20 that you saw Brian Higgins and Chief Berkowitz go into the Sally Court together and alone with the SUV for a wildly long time? That was my recollection at the time. Damning testimony, if true. Remember, the defense is alleging that Brian Higgins is one of the men who could have killed John o' Keefe. And they've claimed in the past the late Chief Berkowitz could have planted taillight evidence. But today, Dever testified that after speaking to those federal agents, she saw a timeline that didn't support her recollection. It was not a memory, that it was a distorted memory. Therefore, I can't state it because at this point, it would be a lie. Like, you can't remember my name. I don't remember. Today Dever claims the defense tried to get her to lie on the stand. They were looking for me to say that I saw Higgins and Berkowitz in the garage with the car. Did you share with them that that wasn't an accurate memory? Yes. How did they respond? They became very aggressive, raised their voices. And the one word that I can very definitely remember is they said that they would charge me with perjury. A claim Jackson refuted. Did you also say on that phone call, I know you're going to tear me a new one because I'm changing my testimony. Changing? No, but you're trying to do that. Alan Jackson pressed her about being called into the Boston Police Commissioner's office about this case, following it up with this question. Have you ever heard of something called the blue wall of silence? Objection. Sustained. Do you think it's important for police officers to protect one another in the field and out? Objection. Sustained. Karen Reed, speaking to that outside of court, are you suggesting that Deborah may have been coaxed into changing her testimony? Y. What's your reaction to her demeanor? I didn't suggest it. She did. When she was called into the commissioner's office, the story completely changed. We subpoenaed her to testify to what she told other authorities and just wanted her to be as honest with us as she was with them. Honesty, what the defense says they're looking for and what Dever says she's giving. My entire job revolves around what I say on the stand right now. If I was to lie, I lose my job. I lose everything. If you agree with what you said In August of 2023 on this witness stand, you would be implicating two officers, fellow officers, as having been in the Sally court, weirdly, for a wildly long time with the suv, implicating not one, but two fellow officers, correct? If I was to lie, then yes. All right, testimony resumes tomorrow at 9am here in Dedham. Glenn, back to you. Melody Mendez at the Courthous. Thank you. Today's testimony from Officer Dever was compelling in so many ways. And joining us to talk about it now is retired state police trooper turned security expert, Todd McGhee. Todd, I'm so grateful you are available on short notice because this dramatic clash between Dever, a defense witness, and defense attorney Alan Jackson really caught everyone's attention today. Should we expect that all police officers receive some kind of training for testifying at trial? And did it surprise you to hear that as a rookie cop, ahead of testimony, she got time with the Police Commissioner, Michael Cox. Well, good evening, Glenn. Thanks for having me. Yes, police officers do go through courtroom procedure, training, and the understanding of how to conduct yourself in a court of law in all of those sorts of things. As you might understand what was interesting about her testimony today, she was obviously nervous about this perjury issue that, that came up in the. In the prior testimony in an interview with the federal agents. So, you know, then what came up in the trial regarding the interview with, with Superintendent Cox was where the defense really tried to pinpoint where her testimony may have changed. So interesting to see the dynamics in the courtroom. Very heated exchange at times. But again, this is, again, not unlike we've seen from other witnesses. When Officer Devers said her livelihood is dependent on her testimony, some interpret that as picking no sides and siding only with the truth. But others see it as code for the blue wall of silence. How did you hear it when she said that? I saw that as her trying to actually protect herself in that response. So, you know, an average police officer is going to say, yes, we should protect other police officers in the field. That's what we do. That's why we call backup. Now, the context is in the form of the blue wall of silence. So in that challenge, she paused, hesitated, and thought well and deep about what her response was going to be. Yeah. So the question now is whether or not that's seen as credible by the jury. Todd McGee, thank you so much. It's always great to have you. Thank you, Glenn. You've never talked to me. Nobody on the fence seems to talk to me since prior to the first trial, so I don't have any idea why I'm here. Let's continue our discussion on Devers testimony for a moment longer with two of our legal analysts tonight. Our panel includes former prosecutor Margaret McClain and retired Massachusetts judge Jack Lewis. So, Margaret, I'm going to begin with you. What's the net net here on the testimony from Dever? Is she a cop who got bullied by Jackson or another police officer whose integrity the jury is now going to question? Well, first of all, if I'm the defense, I would not have called Dever, because, remember, jurors have been listening to this case for 25 long days, and ultimately, they're going to be thinking, what was the point of all of this testimony? Because we know that she actually really didn't see Berkowitz and Higgins in the area of the. In the Sally Port when the Lexus was there. So they're going to think, what's the point? And I think it was very risky for Jackson because he came across as a jerk. But of course, on the flip side, I also think that Dever came across as a jerk. Oh, two jerks. I think there were two jerks going back and forth. However, I do believe that Hank Brennan did a very nice job on cross examination yet again. Okay, let's get into this a little bit more. In the pursuit of justice, obviously, we want all witnesses to arrive at the truth. So is that what happened here, or was it something else here's Officer Devers explaining her changing story. The defense released a timeline right prior to the first trial that the vehicle on that day did not arrive in the Sally Port until about an hour and a half after I left. Meaning it is not possible that I saw that you now indicated that what you told to law enforcement agents in August of 2023 was a lie. No. If you agreed with that statement here on the witness stand, it's not possible. I saw that. If you agreed with that objection. All right, Judge Liu, let me try this one out on you. Let's say that Officer Devers arrived ultimately at the truth. How do we explain or reconcile this thing that according to her own testimony, she must have imagined. There's no way she says it could have happened. Yeah, I think she's really hurtful for the defense. And just as a society, I hope that the Karen Reed folks can start to a criminal jury is totally, totally unpredictable, right? Yes. Disclosure, unpredictable. But it looks like the Karen Reid ship and her. Well, I won't associate them with her yet, but the, the bans or organization of witness intimidators in southeast Massachusetts and perhaps elsewhere in the English speaking world, weirdly, they're all going to go down with the ship, it looks like, so far. But the first piece of evidence is usually the best they have. Do you allow yourself the possibility to think that some of these jurors might really be questioning this witness's integrity as opposed to the bullying that's been described here on this panel by Alan Jackson? Oh, yeah, it's entirely possible. Look at the split in our society. Look at the split. But that's a witness. Ms. Dever is right out of central casting. Okay, let's get to this viewer question, Margaret, because I think this one will be very interesting. Tyler wants to know if a defense witness is evasive, combative, and refusing to answer questions from the defense directly. At what point can the judge declare the witness as hostile? And with that being said, does Kelly Dever fit the bill of a hostile witness? I think she did fit the bill of a hostile witness, but I don't think that Jackson needed to ask the judge to make her a hostile witness because he was getting, you know, he did quite a good job himself getting out. What he wanted to. With. With. With Deber is. But I don't think that he needed to ask for her to be specifically declared hostile in this case. You know, I will have to say that this witness, I thought she. She did. She was a little bit problematic for the prosecution, though, because, you know, you think what did strike me is that the blue line. Line. The wall of silence. Yeah, the wall of silence. So maybe there will. It's a younger jury, as we know, so maybe some of the jurors will think, you know, are we dealing with some sort of police conspiracy here? And they will be talking about it in jury deliberations. Okay. After Deborah finished her testimony, a familiar face from the first trial returned to the witness stand. I don't know of another doctor in the whole United States that did two residencies, one in emergency medicine and one in forensic pathology, and. And has a lifelong interest in dog bites. These multiple groupings are patterns, and my opinion, were inflicted by the. The teeth and claws of a dog. That was Dr. Marie Russell describing her qualifications and John O' Keeffe's injuries. For those of you who are just joining us for this trial, Dr. Russell was an important witness from round one. She was a late edition witness, and it turns out she saw the case in a web article and reached out to offer her insights. We're joined now by our courtroom insider, Sue o' Connell, who was in the gallery for part of the testimony today. So how was the jury responding to this defense expert witness? So the jurors that I can read, because, as I keep telling you, they're very stoic. They're all taking a lot of notes. But there are a couple of younger women jurors who are responding quite visibly favorably to Dr. Russell, to the point where I've been referring to one as calling her her grandmother, because she's really leaning in and hearing about her story and shaking her head. And I think Hank Brennan has his work cut out for him here because he has to discredit her. This is an important part. Has to discredit it somehow. But every time he says something to her, they make faces at him. There's a couple who are just furrowing their brows like, why are you being so hard on this woman? Which I'm told I wasn't in the courtroom for the morning testimony that Jackson did not get from the jurors when he was being harder on some of the witnesses. So I think she's making a favorable impact. I don't know where he goes with this. He's not attacking her credentials. Right. We all know there's no such thing as a dog expert. So you can't get a training in it. You can't read. You can't write a book on it, although I imagine she will after this. Nothing wrong with adding it to your resume when you're an expert witness, if that's what you want to do. So I think what he's going to try and do is pick apart her testimony in the hearings and in the last trial and show inconsistencies. But the last inconsistency he had was that it matched the coroner's report. So I'm wondering where he's going to go with this. Okay, the three of you stay right there because we have to get into Michael Proctor as well, because that's loomed to be a large figure in this case, even though he didn't actually appear. That's coming up next. Cringeworthy and vulgar text messages about Karen Reid read aloud in court. They were sent by Michael Proctor. But the disgraced state trooper has been noticeably absent from this trial. Could he be called to testify? Stick around. We'll take that up in just a few moments. You're watching Canton Confidential, the Karen Reed murder trial. Don't miss any of the Karen Reed murder trial. Get the full recap of what happened in court, expert analysis and what we could see next. This is coverage you won't see anywhere else. Canton confidential weeknights at 7 on NBC 10 Boston. Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94 know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time, help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight infinity@Greenlight.com podcast. She's a whack job. Objection. So don't spell it. You have to. So this, these are your words, Trooper Proctor. Yes, your honor. Go ahead and say them. Yes. She's a babe. Weird Fall river accent, though. Though. No, she's A whack job, and then uses the C word to describe. Is that accurate? That's accurate. He then says, yeah, she's a babe. Weird Fall river accent, though. No, those are the words that he wrote. Those are the words. The tale of two trials. In the first trial, lead investigator Michael Proctor himself read derogatory texts he sent about Karen Reed. But for the retrial today, special prosecutor Hank Brennan read the texts and had them confirmed by a proctor from friend on that text chain who was a defense witness. We're back with our panel now. Jack, Margaret and Sue. So Hank Brennan's reading of Proctor's text messages brings us to a viewer question tonight. Lynn and Arman asks, why didn't David Yannetti read the text messages from Proctor this morning as opposed to Brennan? I don't. Don't you think it would have been more impactful? Judge Lynn, let me come to you on this because I suppose there are many ways to get those text messages into evidence. The way they came into evidence this time is so different than the last time. Could David Yannetti just have read them? Couldn't they have also called Michael Proctor to read them? Yeah, well, they could have called Michael Proctor if they wanted to blast their case to smithereens or risk that. So if they call Michael Proctor, you know, they think they have lost the case because it's all, it's, you know, what, 80% likely to just explode and kill the. But as to the, with the benefit of hindsight, who knew Brennan was going to pull them out and start banding them about, you know, but that's the rough world of being a trial lawyer, especially the most unnerving of all, criminal defense lawyer. Let's challenge something slightly that the judge just said. When we talked to Ronald last week, he said on a scale of 1 to 5, the shock value of the Proctor text messages for him was a six. And he said the same is. So when it came to the relevance of deliberating on those text messages. So given that, did the defense miss an opportunity here, or do you think they've handled the text messages in the right way without understanding why they wouldn't want to call Proctor? I don't know that they had a lot of roots here, and I'm not sure they're not. They're done with them. I'll defer to both of you, but I think the unetti can introduce them kind of like Brennan introduces the clips. So maybe Yannetti will say them later or Jackson will yell it out in courtroom, which we Heard was very effective. People were deeply offended by them. Plus they've already been offended by stuff that proctors. The R word has really been landing with a number of them. So without embarrassing this poor guy who was just an innocent bystander. Total collateral damage. I think it was the right route to go and I think that there's a reason, maybe Yannetti. I know there was a reason. I don't know what it is. Didn't ask him to read them and left it for Hank Brennan to have to do it. So there's something going on here. No, it didn't have the impact that it did the first time, but I think it's still going to have an impact. So, Margaret, are we in some ways burdened by what happened the first time? Because although we all saw it and know the shock value, perhaps this jury does not even know what it's missing. That's true. And I was thinking of that because. Yeah, when I heard that last year for the first time, I was just stunned. Absolutely. Oh, my God. And I don't feel stunned by it. But then on the flip side, I really. I mean, I've heard it so many times now, so I know what's happening coming. We all do. I wonder. So I wonder what the jury will be thinking. I disagree with you, Sue. I think that by Brennan questioning it took away some of the steam from the defense. I do. I think that was a mistake by defense Judge. Why do you think calling Proctor by the defense means the case explodes on them? Because he has multiple. It's like a multi pronged thing. And he can destroy them by showing that he is allegedly. I got no idea. That he is a nice guy. That the 100% reason he won. Whoa, whoa. A nice guy doesn't use the words he was using in those text messages. I'm sorry, this is a real jury there. It's. They, they can. I'm going to give it one. I'm pursuing a murderer and I made terrible errors of judgment. A whole bunch of them. And I apologize deeply for that. But this is a cold blooded murderer. All right, well, she's an accused murderer. We should of course make that point. That's what he's gonna say if he's called. Okay. All right. And I can hear the dings of the emails in the inbox right now in the newsroom. Judge Liu, thank you very much for your commentary. Margaret McLean and Sue O' Connell, thank you as well. If you have questions for our panel in this case, keep sending them our way. The email address is on your screen. Canton.confidentialbcuni.com we'll answer as many questions as we can and also be sure to tell us where you're emailing from. And remember to join us every weeknight at 7 on NBC 10 Boston. We'll have a full recap of the latest development from court, as well as legal analysis. You can watch us live on YouTube as well. Plus, this week's episodes will be streaming on Peacock. A new batch of episodes is released every Sunday. And be sure to check out our true crime podcast about the case. It's the audio version of our nightly show that will catch you up on all the twists and turns up until this point. You're watching Canton Confidential, the Karen Reid Murder Trial this is Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast, the promo and in 30 seconds I'm going to tell you why you should check out the show. I the host Scott Aukerman have a light hearted conversation with famous celebrities like Jon Hamm, Alison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few. Things go a little off the rails, but when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcast.