Jennifer McCabe (1:49)

There was nothing. There's nothing nefarious. I remembered who I called. I didn't go back and look at phone records.

Alan Jackson (1:55)

I didn't say it was nefarious. Why would you use the word nefarious?

Jennifer McCabe (1:58)

Because there's nothing about me calling my sister that is nefarious. And I feel like you're insinuating it.

Sue O'Connell (2:06)

Might be that exchange setting the tone for what would be Jennifer McCabe's third and most heated day on the stand. Alan Jackson asking her about calls that were made to John O'Keefe from her phone she referred to as butt dials.

Alan Jackson (2:18)

Not inadvertently. Called him once, seven times. Correct. According to you.

Jennifer McCabe (2:24)

According to the record.

Alan Jackson (2:28)

And we only know about these calls because you're looking at an extraction of John O'Keefe's phone, correct?

Jennifer McCabe (2:34)

Correct. But I also turned over my phone so you could have gotten all of that off of my phone as well.

Alan Jackson (2:40)

And you're well aware that an extraction was done on your phone and not one of those butt dials appears on your phone extraction, correct? Objection.

Morgietta Derisier (2:49)

Are you aware of that?

Jennifer McCabe (2:51)

I am not aware of that.

Sue O'Connell (2:52)

Jackson focusing on a key piece of evidence. McCabe's Google search has long to die in cold. Prosecutors say the search happened at 6:00am the defense says it happened at 2:27am hours before his body was found.

Alan Jackson (3:04)

You knew that that Google search for has long to die in cold points a very uncomfortable finger right toward you, correct?

Jennifer McCabe (3:13)

I never did that search at 2:27.

Sue O'Connell (3:16)

Perhaps the most intense moment of the day coming when Jackson asked her about the moments after John's body was found in the front lawn of 34 Fairview, the home of her sister and brother in law, a former police officer and trained first responder. McCabe never went inside to get him to help with O'Kee.

Alan Jackson (3:32)

You knew that John O'Keefe was clinging to life during those precious, those precious minutes and seconds, is that right?

Jennifer McCabe (3:39)

I did, yes.

Alan Jackson (3:40)

And you also knew that Brian Albert, your brother in law, was a first responder trained to deal with people in.

Sue O'Connell (3:47)

That kind of distress, hammering McCabe on why she never went in and why she wasn't at all concerned about the safety of her family inside.

Alan Jackson (3:54)

Did you think to go inside the house and check that they're okay?

Jennifer McCabe (3:58)

I had no reason to think that they weren't okay.

Alan Jackson (4:02)

You had no reason to believe they weren't okay. A man was dead or dying on their lawn and your sister got answering.

Morgietta Derisier (4:07)

The phone and nobody is coming out.

Alan Jackson (4:09)

To the chaos of Karen Reed screaming on the front line. You didn't think there was some reason to believe they could have been in peril?

Jennifer McCabe (4:17)

I didn't. Because your client was screaming, she hit him. She had a cracked tail light. She was crying. She hit him. I didn't. But my focus. Can I finish, please?

Alan Jackson (4:26)

You had solved the crime right then and there. You solved the whole case.

Sue O'Connell (4:33)

So the jury will be back here for a full day of testimony on Monday. Glenn and J.C. so, Melody, as your.

Melanie Mendez (4:39)

Piece revealed, things got pretty dramatic toward the end of that cross examination. And we'd been talking about how the demeanor of McCabe was very kind of even. Did she stay there throughout the three days?

Sue O'Connell (4:52)

Listen, Glenn, she stood her ground on her testimony and what she says is her truth. And it was interesting to Note that she said as far as these alleged inconsistencies, she experienced trauma. So, yes, it is hard for her to remember, she says, exact statements or exact words she used when speaking to all of these different law enforcement officers and giving all of this testimony that she has over the last three years.

Glenn Jones (5:17)

Back to you, Melody. Thank you. We did see Karen Reid address the media soon after court ended this afternoon.

Melanie Mendez (5:22)

And she once again criticized Jennifer McCabe's testimony on the stand.

Glenn Jones (5:26)

I know Jen McCabe said she was only concerned with doing what was best to help John O'Keefe. And the best thing for John O'Keefe at 6:04 in the morning was to get a first responder to him immediately. And that was not her priority.

Melanie Mendez (5:40)

Jennifer McCabe has not been named a third party culprit by the defense. Only her brother in law, Brian Albert, seen here on the right and his friend Brian Higgins on the left, met the judge's standard for that. However, McCabe's cross sets up the defense to use her testimony as part of an alleged wider conspiracy. But was it effective? It's important to note Karen Reed is the only person charged in John O'Keefe's death.

Glenn Jones (6:04)

All right, so let's break down Jennifer McCabe's testimony. We're joined now by defense attorney Morgietta Derisier and Ronnie Stanislow, who served as a juror in Reid's first trial. Thank you so much, both of you, for being with us. We're going to take one more look at another tense moment from Alan Jackson's cross examination of McCabe.

Jennifer McCabe (6:22)

I just was texting my family. I wasn't thinking any more of who was going to see it.

Alan Jackson (6:27)

You certainly did not expect when you were writing those texts that the defense, Ms. Karen Reed's representatives would ever get a hold of those texts. That was not in your mind. Correct.

Jennifer McCabe (6:37)

Would never have been in my mind. No.

Alan Jackson (6:39)

That is a textbook example, what we've just seen, of witnesses colluding with one another about the subject matter that's under investigation. Correct.

Melanie Mendez (6:48)

And move for instruction.

Morgietta Derisier (6:50)

All right, jurors, disregard that comment.

Glenn Jones (6:53)

Completely disregard that question.

Alan Jackson (6:56)

Your honor, may we approach?

Morgietta Derisier (6:57)

Yes. Okay.

Glenn Jones (6:58)

This went on all day today, hours and hours. I want to ask you, Morgiet, I'll start with you. It got down to one word differences. You know, you said this the first time, this the second time. We saw the most powerful moments I think there. But did Alan Jackson take it too far? Because you can tune out after a certain point when you get a witness who's not Going to budge?

Ronnie Stanislow (7:23)

Absolutely not. He handled today probably the most effective out of all of the days of cross examination, in my opinion. And the reason I say that is because that little segment where she mentions the word nefarious and he doesn't mention it, she brings it up. So clearly, whatever questioning that she's receiving, the heat is on. And she realizes that it's not just the one word. It's her demeanor, it's her reaction. And if you're telling the truth, why get so upset? So that cross examination for today was extra effective.

Melanie Mendez (7:55)

All right, so, Ronald, let's go back to the cross examination of this witness. The last time you, of course, were there to see it in person. You're watching now virtually. How do the two compare? Do you think this cross examination landed better or worse than the first time around?

Courtroom Juror (8:10)

I think it's worse given the circumstances of how she reacted in the certain verbiage and how she was always defending herself given the circumstances.

Melanie Mendez (8:21)

So you found it defensive. Do you also think she lacked credibility?

Courtroom Juror (8:26)

It's going to weigh on the jury, of course, but in my perspective, it seems like she's lacking credibility if she's being defensive.

Melanie Mendez (8:36)

And to the point that JC Asked Morgieta about this lasted three days. After a while, does a juror kind of tune out that they've been listening to this person for so long?

Courtroom Juror (8:46)

It depends. But in my perspective, I would be paying attention because I want to see if she's credible. Then she would have all the information without having to be defensive.

Glenn Jones (8:57)

Okay, Ronnie, I don't think this happened in the first trial. There was this interesting moment, we can call it during cross examination today. At one point, Alan Jackson asked Jennifer McCabe to point out someone sitting in the courtroom. Take a listen to the exchange.

Alan Jackson (9:10)

And you compared and contrasted those with each other to create that timeline, correct?

Jennifer McCabe (9:14)

No, we didn't compare and contrast. I said, she called me, she said this, then Kerry, and someone was writing it down for us.

Alan Jackson (9:22)

That would be your sister.

Jennifer McCabe (9:26)

Who? It was my sister, yes.

Alan Jackson (9:29)

Which sister?

Jennifer McCabe (9:30)

My sister Denise.

Alan Jackson (9:32)

What's your last name?

Jennifer McCabe (9:34)

Galvin.

Alan Jackson (9:35)

She here?

Jennifer McCabe (9:37)

She is here, yes.

Alan Jackson (9:38)

Where is she?

Jennifer McCabe (9:39)

She's sitting over there.

Alan Jackson (9:40)

So she witnessed this timeline being prepared? Correct.

Jennifer McCabe (9:45)

She wrote the timeline, yes.

Glenn Jones (9:47)

So that moment prompted this question from one of our viewers. Michelle Emmett wants to know why Ellen Jackson would ask Jen McCabe to identify her sister Morgieta. There was no follow up to that from the outside. I don't even know why that was done. Can you answer that?

Ronnie Stanislow (10:02)

It's going back to this third Party, culprit, defense. Now, I think we're going to see something really explosive when they take their case in chief. But you have to think about it. The two brothers we know the judge already made the decision on. She didn't make the decision on Jen McCabe in terms of the third party culprit, but there's key information about collusion and conspiracy. And Alan Jackson wants to say, hey, look, the family is here. She's sitting right here in the audience as Jen McCabe is testifying. I thought it was pretty powerful, but.

Glenn Jones (10:31)

Can I, can you drag someone in like that who's not on the stand, who's. You're just pointing out someone in the courtroom.

Ronnie Stanislow (10:38)

It's not even about dragging. It's about perception. Right. And if you're going with this theory about third party, it's not there's a conspiracy. There's more going on here. Every juror I'm sure in that room turned their head when she turned her head to point at her sister. And sometimes that's all you need for reasonable doubt. Wow.

Melanie Mendez (10:53)

I was kind of hoping the camera would turn as well.

Alan Jackson (10:55)

Yeah, sure.

Ronnie Stanislow (10:56)

That would have been good.

Melanie Mendez (10:57)

All right, Ronald, let's go Back to Jennifer McCabe because I want to ask you specifically about this Google search. I'm not sure to what extent it was in the minds of the jurors, but for trial watchers, it was a big moment the first time around that someone would Google search house long to die in the cold at 2:27am before John O'Keefe's body was found. How do you believe Jennifer McCabe handled that issue now that there seems to be, I don't know, mitigating scientific evidence to suggest that Google search didn't happen at that time.

Courtroom Juror (11:28)

I think she handled it well. I think there's still that piece of reasonable doubt because it's not very clear. Right. So in a juror's mind, just like when I perceived it for the first time way back then, it seemed like it's not very clear. Right. You have this expert who's saying they're an expert, but it's not very clear in my mind or in anyone's mind. Right. If you look up something, can it happen now or can it happen in the future? Right. So it's not, it's still unclear in my mind. I don't know if it's going to resonate in the jurors minds.

Glenn Jones (12:04)

Ronnie, as always, thank you for your perspective and thanks for joining us. Morgietta, stick around if you will.

Morgietta Derisier (12:10)

Absolutely.

Melanie Mendez (12:11)

Jennifer McCabe was just the first member of the McCabe and Albert families to take the stand for Karen Reed's retrial. There are many more on the witness list. So if you're wondering who's who in those families, just head to nbc10boston.com there you will find an interactive chart. It takes an up close look at all of the people involved in the case as well as their connections to each other.

Glenn Jones (12:33)

All right. Still to come, our Courtroom insider Sue O'Connell joins us. She is going to describe the jury's reaction to this marathon questioning of the key witness for the prosecution.

J.C. Monahan (12:45)

Don't miss any of the Karen Reed murder trial. Get the full recap of what happened in court, expert analysis and what we could see next. This is coverage you won't see anywhere else. Canton confidential weeknights at 7 on NBC 10 Boston.

Jennifer McCabe (13:05)

I welcomed them in my house, sat with them and then I stopped. And then I met with them a few times after and I answered all their questions that they asked. I helped clear up some misconceptions that they had been told. And as you know, I know they're no longer investigating. So I think I helped them.

Glenn Jones (13:26)

Well, we continue to break down Jennifer McCabe's third and final day of testimony. What you just heard was her response to Alan Jackson's question about whether she failed to cooperate with federal agents. We want to welcome in courtroom insider Sue O'Connell. Sue, you were there for all three days of this testimony. Did anything surprise you in these moments?

Morgietta Derisier (13:46)

The thing that surprised me the most is why Jen McCabe cannot answer the basic easy questions. It took her over 24 minutes, two episodes of 12 minutes to confirm testimony she had already given and to confirm data on her cell phone about looking out the window. It doesn't help her credibility when it's already agreed to. You know, for example, both the defense and the prosecution agreed to enter her cell phone data about the text that she gave when she was looking out the window at Fairview. Her former testimony aligns looking out the window with those texts. It took 12 minutes for her to say yes. I recall. It refreshes my memory. Why? I don't know why.

Glenn Jones (14:29)

Morgiana, can you answer that?

Ronnie Stanislow (14:31)

This is classic impeachment. If you're going to do impeachment, you have to do it this way. If an attorney asks you on the stand, do you need a document to refresh your recollection? They're teeing up to impeach you. And I don't think she got that any of the times that it happened. She just continued to say, I think that's what it said as she read the document right in front of her. Just read the document.

Morgietta Derisier (14:52)

And the judge kept intervening, too. The judge intervened several times, and I don't know what the jury was thinking about that.

Glenn Jones (14:58)

Yeah.

Melanie Mendez (14:58)

Well, sue, clearly the defense needs the jury to believe that Jennifer McCabe somehow is a conduit to this sort of wider conspiracy. And I think you can argue Jackson made some progress on that this week. I know that's certainly what Morgiera has been thinking. But here's the challenge. Reid called McCabe that night, not the other way around. So as you're watching the jury, can you get a sense from their body language how they're piecing this all together and figuring out how it all fits in? Because, of course, we know a lot more than they do.

Morgietta Derisier (15:28)

Right, Right. So first, it's a very stoic jury and there are five diligent note takers. So they're taking notes the whole time. I just want to say that. So one of the things that was surprising to me, and again, because we know so much, is watching the light go on on a few of the jurors in the front when they were understanding the narrative that Alan Jackson was laying out. Not that they were buying it or not buying it, but why would he be going so hard at this canton mom who was invited in to help find her friend by the person who was on trial for murder. And at some point just after lunch today, the light went on on one girl's face, one young woman's face where she covered her mouth and she looked back and forth at them like, oh, I see what he's doing. So, you know, whether or not this is going to stick, there's still a lot more testimony to go. But again, we know things. We imagine they were chosen because they don't know as much as we know or haven't formed opinions. So therefore, just watching that dawn on.

Glenn Jones (16:23)

Them was interesting and remembering they can now only use what's presented in court. So even if they do know things outside, they can't use it. After Jen McCabe left the stand, Hank Brennan showed three clips of interviews that Karen Reid did with the media. Take a listen to a little bit. John looked like a buffalo on the prairie. It was just a lawn and a heap that wasn't a bush or a hydrant or a dog. It was a weird shaped lump at that time in those elements. And I was looking to find him on the side of the road. I was expecting, I'D find him. I was looking to find him on the side of the road. I expected to find him. Was there a reaction to that when that was played?

Morgietta Derisier (17:08)

So, JC, these clips are jarring. I'm hoping, and I hope Morjetta can tell us if they can watch them when they're deliberating, will they be able to bring.

Ronnie Stanislow (17:15)

Yes, yes, they will.

Morgietta Derisier (17:16)

All right, so that's going to help them because they're not being set up and they're just being shown that we're going to watch these clips. So the volume comes on and at one point, the first clip we thought was going to be a video clip, and we thought we were missing the video, but it was an audio clip of her interview with Gretchen Voss. So when they come on, it takes a couple of minutes or seconds or whatever for the jury to get it, and then they're gone. So, you know, they're not getting enough setup of what they're supposed to look for or what they're seeing. And then they come and they go.

Glenn Jones (17:46)

Is that if there's a limitation on what Hank Brennan can do, that doesn't seem like something?

Ronnie Stanislow (17:50)

No, I think he's setting up playing certain clips. But what happens on the second part is defense is going to come in and play other clips. Right. And then that's the last part of what the jury's going to hear because we're only a few witnesses in, we have tons of other witnesses to go. But when the defense team puts their case in chief on, they're gonna play other clips and that's gonna be the last memory that the jury hears. So effective? Maybe not so much as.

Glenn Jones (18:16)

What about at the end of a Friday, after week two?

Ronnie Stanislow (18:18)

Absolutely.

Glenn Jones (18:18)

Is it effective?

Ronnie Stanislow (18:20)

Maybe for today, but not, I don't think, for the totality of what is happening. And the jury's gonna see the whole clip and they'll base their own opinions.

Morgietta Derisier (18:27)

I think it's a deliberation that'll be helpful in the deliberation in the actual. While it's happening in the courtroom, it's not as effective as it is.

Glenn Jones (18:35)

What about our. We talk a lot about the sidebars during these conversations between the lawyers and the judge. All little hush hush off to the side. We've talked about how small the courtroom is, so let's put those two together. It prompted one of our viewers to send in this question. Robert in Milton asks, is it possible for others in the courtroom to overhear these sidebar discussions? I can tell you those of us watching at home can't Hear what's going on. Small courtroom. Can you.

Morgietta Derisier (19:01)

There's now a white noise machine that your tax dollars have gone to to kind of try and kill it. That was not time. But we can hear enough. I don't know if the jurors can hear it because they're on the other side, but we pick up some words in the press box. I'm sure that the, the O'Keefe family can hear. And we're reading body language a lot, too, because we know Judge Bev has had just about enough of a lot of people all around. And you can see that, but you can't hear them specifically.

Melanie Mendez (19:26)

And ultimately the sidebars, are they transcribed so that later they could be referred to?

Ronnie Stanislow (19:31)

Absolutely. And they have to be for appeals purposes. If, you know, either side wants to appeal a motion or denial of something, and I really don't, the jury can hear it because there's also speakers closer to where they are, where the white noise is probably penetrating their ears before the conversation.

Morgietta Derisier (19:47)

Yeah, the white noise machine is behind the jurors, so that's blocking them.

Glenn Jones (19:51)

Can we just to finish up, can we all agree that the number of sidebars is extraordinary?

Ronnie Stanislow (19:55)

It's denied.

Morgietta Derisier (19:57)

Sidebar. She denied two sidebars to Alan Jackson today. He overcame one and got one. And then she told him to make it quick. So, you know, there's definitely been a shift in the tone. Yeah.

Glenn Jones (20:07)

Yeah. To speed it up, sue and Morgietta, as always, thank you so much.

Melanie Mendez (20:10)

See you next week.

Glenn Jones (20:12)

Listen, we want to thank you all at home because you've been sending in your questions about the case. The case. So keep sending them our way. That email right there on your screen, canton.confidentialbcuni.com we'll answer, of course, as many questions as we can.

Melanie Mendez (20:25)

And remember to join us every weeknight at 7 on NBC 10 Boston. We'll have a full recap of the latest developments from court, as well as legal analysis. Plus, this week's episodes will be streaming on Peacock starting on Sunday. You're watching Canton Confidential, the Karen Reed murder trial.

J.C. Monahan (20:49)

To watch full episodes of Canton Confidential, the Karen Reed murder trial, tune in to NBC 10 Boston weeknights at 7 through the duration of the trial. You can also catch past episodes on the NBC 10 Boston YouTube page. Full episodes are posted one day after airing. NBC 10 Boston news worthy of.