Can Bryan Kohberger Get a Fair Trial in Moscow?

Summary

Summary of "Can Bryan Kohberger Get a Fair Trial in Moscow?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The King Road Killings: An Idaho Murder Mystery
• Host/Author: ABC News
• Episode: Can Bryan Kohberger Get a Fair Trial in Moscow?
• Release Date: August 31, 2024

Overview: In this pivotal episode of The King Road Killings, ABC News Correspondent Kayna Whitworth delves into the ongoing legal battle over the trial venue for Bryan Kohberger, the criminology PhD student charged with the brutal murders of four University of Idaho students. As the community of Moscow grapples with intense media scrutiny and public opinion, the episode unpacks the arguments from both the defense and prosecution regarding whether Kohberger can receive a fair trial within Latah County or if it should be relocated to a less biased jurisdiction.

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1. Change of Venue Hearing

Defense’s Argument for Moving the Trial: The defense team, led by Ann Taylor, has formally requested that Bryan Kohberger's trial be moved out of Latah County due to pervasive negative media coverage that they argue has prejudiced the local population against Kohberger. Taylor emphasized the potential for a "mob mentality" within the small college town, suggesting that the saturation of media coverage could undermine the presumption of innocence.

Ann Taylor [01:16]: "We have to get this case out of Latah County. That's an important decision and it's important to make. We're nine months from trial and we need to have the venue issue settled."

Prosecution’s Counterargument: Prosecutors, represented by Lead Deputy Attorney General Ingrid Beatty, acknowledged the intense media presence but contended that relocating the trial would not alleviate the defense's concerns. They argued that the negative sentiment is not unique to Latah County and that moving the trial could impose significant logistical burdens on victims’ families and witnesses.

Ingrid Beatty [05:38]: "Jurors among the total sample size who had no opinion about this case, potential jurors, survey respondents Latah County had the highest number of folks who reported having no opinion about this case at 17%."

Legal Experts’ Analysis: Legal contributors Matt Murphy and Brian Buckmire provided their insights following the hearing. Buckmire highlighted the defense's extensive presentation, which included surveys and expert testimonies, but questioned the practical implications of proving actual bias among jurors.

Brian Buckmire [06:23]: "It was the level of detail from the surveys intertwined with the expert analysis as to bias cognitive dissidents, the way that people think and also don't realize how they think and how that could affect jury selection."

Meanwhile, Beatty emphasized the difficulty in obtaining a change of venue based solely on pretrial publicity, citing precedents where such motions have rarely been granted.

Ingrid Beatty [06:55]: "I think there’s really two parts to that. Number one, it's traditionally very difficult to get a change of venue granted based on pretrial publicity."

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2. Investigation into the Alibi at Wawai County Park

Visit to Wawai County Park: Whitworth took listeners on an on-site investigation to Wawai County Park in Washington, where Kohberger's defense claims he was present on the night of the murders. Accompanied by producers, Whitworth explored the park’s remote areas to assess the validity of the alibi.

Matt Murphy [21:18]: "Wahwe defense claims that during the early morning hours of November 13, 2022, Coburger was alone driving around Port Pullman, Washington where he lived, including Wawai County Park."

Defense’s Alibi Presentation: The defense presented an alibi suggesting that Kohberger was hiking alone in the remote park during the relevant time. They cited photographic evidence of Kohberger in the area on multiple occasions, including the night in question.

Brian Edelman [03:46]: "Litao County is a small venue, and the crime has been seared in the community's consciousness. People have been saturated with prejudicial coverage."

Technical Analysis of Cell Phone Evidence: The episode delves into the complexities of Kohberger's cell phone data, which showed intermittent connectivity between cell towers in Pullman and Moscow. Telecommunications expert Ben Levitan explained the challenges of accurately pinpointing Kohberger’s location due to the sparse distribution of cell towers in the rural area.

Ben Levitan [30:16]: "There's no expert in the world who can look at that and pinpoint where someone is located. It's just not possible."

Legal Experts Discuss the Alibi’s Strength: Buckmire and Deputy Attorney General Ingrid Beatty debated the robustness of the alibi. Buckmire pointed out the difficulties in substantiating the alibi without direct evidence linking Kohberger to the park at the specific time.

Brian Buckmire [28:47]: "They have to give enough to get the alibi, but they can’t give you everything without putting their client up. And they’re not willing to do that, especially at this point."

Conversely, Beatty maintained that the cell phone evidence strongly aligns with the prosecution’s timeline, undermining the defense’s claims.

Ingrid Beatty [30:45]: "The timing matches up perfectly from the time he left his house to the time it would take to drive to the murder scene and get back."

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3. Conclusion of the Hearing

After hours of deliberation, Judge John declined to make an immediate decision on the change of venue request. He acknowledged the compelling arguments from both sides and indicated the need for further consideration of logistical challenges and potential jury bias.

Judge John [37:49]: "He said both sides made strong arguments and that he'll need to spend more time considering the logistics of relocation and concerns about media coverage biasing a potential jury."

Legal Experts’ Final Thoughts: The legal analysts speculated on the possible outcomes, suggesting that the judge's decision may hinge on balancing fair trial rights with the practicalities of relocating a high-profile case.

Brian Edelman [37:09]: "We have to consider every piece of evidence in light of every other piece of evidence. And so it’s going to be layers."

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4. Implications for the Trial Venue and Future Episodes

The unresolved decision on the trial venue sets the stage for heightened tensions as the community awaits the final ruling. The episode concludes with Whitworth hinting at future updates and a deeper exploration of the trial proceedings in Season Two, scheduled to commence at the trial's onset next summer.

Kana Whitworth [37:49]: "He said he’ll go through everything and go back to the law again too. Until then, a decision will have to wait. We’ll be back in your feed with important updates on this case."

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Notable Quotes:

• Ann Taylor [01:16]: "We have to get this case out of Latah County. That's an important decision and it's important to make."

• Brian Edelman [03:46]: "We know that jurors have closely followed the case. They've talked about it. They're familiar with prejudicial details."

• Brian Buckmire [28:47]: "They have to give enough to get the alibi, but they can’t give you everything without putting their client up."

• Ingrid Beatty [30:45]: "The timing matches up perfectly from the time he left his house to the time it would take to drive to the murder scene and get back."

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Conclusion: This episode meticulously dissects the complexities surrounding the fairness of Bryan Kohberger's impending trial in Moscow, Idaho. By presenting both legal perspectives and on-the-ground investigations, Kayna Whitworth provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges in ensuring an impartial trial amidst intense media spotlight and community sentiment.

Transcript

[Brad Milke]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. It's Brad Milke, host of ABC's Daily News podcast Start here. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Kana Whitworth]

Hey, it's Kana Whitworth. I came back to Moscow, Idaho for the latest hearing in the Bryan Kohberger case. Kohberger is scheduled to stand trial for the murders of Kaylee Gonzalez, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle and Ethan Chapin next summer. A not guilty plea has been entered on his behalf. The big question the judge is wrestling with now is where will that trial be held when it's set to begin nine months from now? The defense once it moved out of Litaw county, where Moscow is located, to Boise, several hours away, or to another nearby county. Coburger's defense says all the pre trial publicity about their client has been negative.

[Ann Taylor]

Has actually prejudiced potential jurors and lay tie down. We have to get this case out of Lanetoc County. That's an important decision and it's important to make. NASA we're nine months from trial and we need to have the venue issue settled.

[Kana Whitworth]

Prosecutors concede the media coverage has been intense, but they say changing the venue won't solve the defense's problems.

[Ann Taylor]

Thank you, your honor. The pervasive media coverage across the entire state has simply created some complications and difficulties. Those are not unique to Lake Top County.

[Kana Whitworth]

In this episode, we sat down with two of our ABC News legal contributors just hours after the hearing wrapped up and they walked us through the dilemma of seating a jury for a case that everybody's heard of. And we'll visit the county park that Coburger's lawyers say he was at the night of the murders.

[Dave Mahan]

It's very remote. There's no cell service down here. So it's an easy place to go escape.

[Kana Whitworth]

This is a bonus episode of the King Road killings. Can Brian Kohberger get a fair trial in Moscow? Inside the small courtroom in Latah County, a crowd gathered to hear the defense make the argument for moving the trial away from this small college town where the murders took place nearly two years ago. Kali Gin's office's parents, Christy and Steve were there. They've pledged to be at every hearing. Kaylee's brother Stephen III was also there in a shirt and tie. Bryan Coburger walked in wearing a large black suit coat. It looked new. You could see that the back vents hadn't been cut yet. He greeted his attorney and took his seat at the defense table. Throughout the hearing, his attorneys would present nearly six hours of testimony from media and psychology experts. One of them was Brian Edelman, who polled public attitudes across four different counties in Idaho. He surveyed what 400 potential jurors in Latah county knew about the case, their attitudes toward the defendant, and their ability to be impartial. Edelman testified that he found a clear negative media bias within Lato County.

[Brian Edelman]

Lato county is a small venue, and the crime has been seared in the community's consciousness. People have been saturated with prejudicial coverage. Many people here have direct and indirect connections to this crime. We know from the data that jurors have closely followed the case. They've talked about it. They're familiar with prejudicial details. I think that the presumption of innocence has been undermined and a presumption of guilt prevails in this community.

[Kana Whitworth]

The defense had used the term mob mentality in its filing before the hearing and in court. Edelman gave examples of the types of responses they got in their survey. How people said they'd react if Bryan Coburger were found not guilty.

[Brian Edelman]

A range of themes from people would basically kill him to they burned the courthouse down or assume that the jury failed or that he would have to prove that he was not guilty. Again, shifting the burden and then just emotional stuff about it would be devastating to the community. Other people talked about the fear. If he didn't do it, well, who did?

[Kana Whitworth]

The defense, along with their witnesses, argued that, yes, there's bias present all over Idaho, but they believe that other nearby counties like Nez Perce or further south, Ada county, home to Boise, the state's largest city, are less biased than Latah. Their survey found there are fewer people in these counties who've prejudged Coburger. Prosecutors cross examined the defense's witnesses and pointed out that moving the trial would take a toll on victims, families and witnesses who would have to travel potentially long distances. Lead Deputy Attorney General Ingrid Beatty noted the defense's survey showed attitudes in Lato county weren't that different from attitudes in other counties surveyed.

[Ann Taylor]

I would also point the court to the fact that jurors among the total sample size who had no opinion about this case, potential jurors, survey respondents Layto county had the highest number of folks who reported having no opinion about this case at 17% foreign.

[Matt Murphy]

Legal contributors streamed the hearing. They're joining me now. Matt Murphy was a former prosecutor for 17 years trying capital murder cases in Orange County. And Brian Buckmire was a homicide defense attorney in Brooklyn who's now in private practice. And, gentlemen, I'm so honored to have you here with me, and I'm curious as to your thoughts. And Brian, we'll start here with you. Look, the defense team really had the courtroom today. This was multiple hours of witness testimony. What stood out to you the most?

[Brian Buckmire]

It was the level of detail from the surveys intertwined with the expert analysis as to bias cognitive dissidents, the way that people think and also don't realize how they think and how that could affect jury selection.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, it certainly makes you question almost everything that you do in your own personal life from day to day. But, Matt, on the prosecutor side, boy, they were awfully quiet today.

[Ingrid Beatty]

Yeah, I think that. I think that there's really two parts to that. Number one, it's. It is traditionally very difficult to get a change of venue granted based on pretrial publicity. Orange county, for example, we've never had one granted in decades and decades. But I think at the end of the day, look, whether this is tried in Boise, whether it's tried in Moscow, or whether it's tried in. In one of these other small counties closer to the murder scene, the prosecution's looking at it like they're going to get a. They're going to get a fair jury. And I don't think there's going to be that much difference between the group of jurors who show up in one jurisdiction compared to another. I don't think it's going to make much difference from the prosecution standpoint.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, it's so interesting that you say that, though, Matt, because, I mean, that was the crux of everything that we heard from the witnesses today. Right. They were displaying all kinds of data to try to say, these are the respondents from ADA county, which is where Boise is. It's the most populated county in Idaho. They just felt like these responses are far less emotional from what they viewed as incredibly personal and emotional responses in Latehau County.

[Ingrid Beatty]

Yeah, well, those responses, of course, are. They. They pick the worst ones, and that's the, the defense's job. Right. And there's 40,000 people in, in Latehau county. And of course, there's a lot more in Boise. But a juror that expresses any sort of bias like that is never going to be a, A, a proper juror. The court is going to dismiss that that's called dismissal for cause. And remember, you've got a constitutional right to have a fair jury. You don't have a constitutional right to find people that haven't heard of a high profile case. And when you do enough high profile cases, what you typically find is people will come in. And most people are really busy with their own lives most of the time. And this case is a high profile case. But Brian has done high profile cases in New York, I have in California. And when you actually go to pick that jury, it's shocking. You feel like the entire world is watching your case and living and breathing by it. And you might get like one person in 10 that knows anything of real substance. Everybody else is like, yeah, I heard something about that. And there's some college students. And it's surprising how out of touch of the news most jurors are. But, you know, he's once, once somebody's heard of a case, the next question is, well, can you put aside anything you've heard before and base it on the law and the evidence as you hear it is instructed by the court. Most jurors really want to do the right thing. At the end of the day, I know it's easier for the victim's families if it stays in Moscow. That will weigh heavily with the court.

[Matt Murphy]

And Brian, to that point. They had witnesses testify today about how many newspaper articles had been written and how that equates to past trials that have been granted a change of venue. Brian, you and I have talked about the Valo case. That is one that they decided to highlight today in court. And frankly, Brian, it wasn't the only high profile case that they tried to link Bryan Coburger's case to. They also said that in terms of general awareness about this case, they linked it to George Floyd.

[Brian Buckmire]

Yeah, the name of the game is precedence. And the ability to attach your arguments to another case that worked in your favor is pretty much what we as attorneys do. The other part of that is the human aspect of it, that no judge, especially in a high profile case, wants to stick their neck out. They love to have the ability to say, you know what, this judge over there did the same thing as me and he or she was okay, I can follow the same path. And so pointing to, I think the Chad Dabel and Lori Valo Debel case, that the doomsday cult parents, the parents who had killed their children, because that was the end of times, and traveled to Hawaii and everyone heard about this story and ironically enough, they moved their case. I think was from Fremont county to Ada county, the exact same county that they're trying to move it here. And everything worked out. They picked a jury. And for the prosecutor, it worked out for them. They got a conviction. Chad Dabel is actually being sentenced to death. And so for the defense to be able to point to a case like that and say in this very state, another judge did the exact same thing. It wasn't sticking their neck out. It was just as much, if not more media coverage. And they found a fair and impartial jury.

[Matt Murphy]

And, Brian, in terms of what the defense is trying to do here in trying to build this case, bringing all of this witness testimony, I mean, it was over five hours today of PowerPoint presentations. There was dozens of slides, clearly, of this extensive survey that was conducted by this outside firm. But also a lot of it had to do, Brian, with the oversaturation of media coverage. And I was a little bit surprised in the courtroom that so much of what they considered media coverage had to do with social media and Reddit threads. What they were talking about wasn't coming from journalists.

[Brian Buckmire]

Yeah, I mean, I think that is just an indication of the times. Like, we weren't talking about people getting news from social media 15 years ago. We weren't talking about people getting news from social media in the same way they get today, maybe even two or three years ago. I mean, x Reddit, all these places people turn to get their news from at a greater volume than they did the day before, and they probably will do it at a greater way tomorrow than they do today. And so I think now the court and the court's not very good at this. We're often a couple years behind in science and in media and trends. And so the court, in some regards, has to play catch up and bring in the experts. And you tell the judge, like, judge, this isn't something we've done before. This isn't something we had to contemplate before, but this is something that definitely interferes with the six amendments of a fair, an impartial jury that we need to contemplate.

[Kana Whitworth]

One moment in the hearing demonstrated just how tricky it is in court to talk about media coverage without giving it an even bigger megaphone by feeding images and headlines into the court's own live stream. As Edelman was going through his testimony with lead defense attorney Ann Taylor, he displayed a lengthy list of Facebook groups that have popped up to talk about the case.

[Ann Taylor]

We'll just keep scrolling for a minute. I think this goes on a little bit.

[Brian Edelman]

Sure. These are all groups that you're looking at right now. These are just Facebook groups that have been created talking about this case. These are videos.

[Ann Taylor]

These all popped up from that one search term.

[Kana Whitworth]

Judge John. Judge quickly stepped in.

[Brian Edelman]

I don't think we need to advertise all these, honestly.

[Brian Buckmire]

Okay.

[Brian Edelman]

We've been trying to protect from this kind of stuff, your honor, I don't, I'm, I'm aware of it. I don't look at it, I don't read it. We know it's there.

[Ann Taylor]

May we take a brief break, your honor?

[Ben Levitan]

Sure.

[Matt Murphy]

The hearing went on break and when.

[Kana Whitworth]

It resumed, a portion of discussion wasn't live streamed. But eventually we got back to the expert witnesses and the attorneys making their change of venue arguments.

[Brian Edelman]

Okay, we are back on camera. Sorry for the disruption about that, but we're going Forward now.

[Brian Buckmire]

Okay.

[Brian Edelman]

Ms. Taylor.

[Ann Taylor]

Thank you, your honor. May I share my screen?

[Brian Edelman]

Yes.

[Matt Murphy]

You know, there's been so much focus about potentially moving this trial down into ADA county, where Boise is. But at the end of the day today, we heard Ann Taylor, the lead defense attorney, talk really forcefully about the option of moving it into Nez Perce county or another neighboring county as well. These are smaller counties, smaller populations. And she tried to ask the judge to really, really consider that, noting that they weren't so far away.

[Kana Whitworth]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

Boise, depending on how you drive, five or six hour drive from Moscow. And that would certainly be hard on the families. And so she was trying to say, what if we get it out of Moscow, out of Leta county, but into one of these neighboring counties. And so, Matt, again, we didn't hear from the prosecution rebutting that in that moment, but how do you think they were taking that?

[Ingrid Beatty]

Well, one problem for the defense on that is that there's the whole, the whole concept of potential, you know, jury viewings is something that most courts and death penalty cases at least like to have available. Although it's kind of rare in this case. Remember, they tore the house down.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. There's nothing for them to look at, but they built these models or something to bring in.

[Ingrid Beatty]

Right. So, but, but four hours is a long way away. That's four hours for, for witnesses and convenience of, of, of parties and witnesses is one of the factors in Idaho penal code section 21 regarding change of venue. So. Yeah. So that, that may actually carry some weight.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Ingrid Beatty]

If they, if they kick it to the county next door. I don't think the defense has necessarily changed much in, in my view.

[Matt Murphy]

And Brian, just sort of. Lastly, on this topic, I'm curious as to your thoughts on the fact that Brian Cobber's defense team, you know, is alleging that the media coverage has been so extensive that, you know, many residents in Moscow have this prejudgment of guilt towards Bryan Kohberger. But then, you know, they put these filings out there and they tell the community of Moscow, based on their survey, there's a mob mentality here. People I spoke with in the community are very offended by that characterization. What does it do for Ann Taylor to put that out into the world?

[Brian Buckmire]

So I can only. I can't speak for Ann Taylor because I am not Ann Taylor. But I will say this. Ann Taylor's a public defender. I was a public defender for nine years. There is some commonality amongst people who choose to go to law school, choose to go to probably one of the least paying jobs that you can get out of law school, but do it for a reason. That is a true belief that the system needs people to push back on and to represent people who should not be judged by the worst thing that they're accused of or the worst thing that they do. And so for better or for worse, and I will include myself in this category, I represent my client and I don't care about anything else. And I think that's what everyone deserves. And I understand that. I myself have said things that have hurt the feelings of victims and their families. I think every public defender understands that. But we compartmentalize and force ourselves into that position because everyone deserves that person. Everyone who gets accused of a crime deserves a person in their corner that says, I'm here for you and you only. I'm not measuring or weighing how the community will feel. I'm not measuring or weighing anything other than how do I advance your best interest? And I think the system only works when a person is represented by that person. And on the other side is a person who says, I'm going to put you in jail and I'm going to make sure the rights of these victims are heard. And then we have those two opposing forces. The hope and belief is that we have justice. But you can't have those two people trying to do each other's jobs. It's got to be two equally strong opposing forces. And we hope that the outcome is justice.

[Kana Whitworth]

After the break, more from our legal analysts about the most contentious parts of this case. Plus my visit to the place Kohberger's attorneys say he was on the night of the murders.

[Brad Milke]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. It's Brad Milke, host of ABC's Daily News podcast. Start here. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Progress Prices vary based on how you buy.

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[Kana Whitworth]

One of the things I've been so curious about in this case is where Brian Coburger was on the night of the murders.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, there's the first sign.

[Kana Whitworth]

Wahwe defense claims that during the early morning hours of November 13, 2022, Coburger was alone driving around Port Pullman, Washington where he lived, including Wawai County Park. As the Alibi filing stated, he often did this to hike and run or see the moon and stars. It's a half hour drive from where he lived. It's remote. I drove out there with two of my producers to look around.

[Matt Murphy]

And okay, we're going to turn right off the Tun road and go in. Okay, so first of all, the sign hours of operation are 7am to dusk. The park is closed and gated at dusk. It even threatens to lock your vehicle in the park if it's still here.

[Kana Whitworth]

We head inside and we're out here on a perfect early evening in August, and there still aren't very many people here.

[Matt Murphy]

And now we're on a little bit of a trail.

[Kana Whitworth]

Locals come to Hawaii county park to hunt and fish in the Snake River. We see one fisherman in the distance. He's not having much luck.

[Matt Murphy]

The sun is kind of just starting.

[Kana Whitworth]

To go down.

[Matt Murphy]

The river. Looks like glass. Some of the hills are in the shadows. Some are just getting that last little bit of daylight.

[Kana Whitworth]

On the November night in question, it was a much different scene. Records show it was a chilly 28 degrees. There was ice fog and it was overcast. Just inside the park, the road splits into a Y and we pass a driveway. There's a house built into a hill. It has a really cool large circular window in the front and the roof is in the hill. It's dirt and grass. I knock and the park superintendent, Dave Mahan, answers the door. This is where he lives year round with his family. And he agrees to talk with me.

[Matt Murphy]

As we stand here. Now, it's what, it's 7:40 at night. I mean, it's gorgeous here. The temperature is perfect, the sun's going down. It's beautiful. But what is it like in November?

[Dave Mahan]

It's really cold in November. You wouldn't really expect to see very many people down here in November.

[Kana Whitworth]

Dave's heard the news reports. He knows Kohberger, says he was here the night of the murders. But Dave tells me he really has no way to know if that's true or not.

[Dave Mahan]

I can't prove that anybody was here or not here at any given time.

[Kana Whitworth]

There's no sign in book, no security camera footage. And Dave says this isn't even the first time that someone has used the park as an alibi.

[Dave Mahan]

From the beginning, we always said he better not say he was here.

[Matt Murphy]

Really? You had that thought that early on? And then they gave this partial alibi without a location and followed it up later with the location.

[Dave Mahan]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

And what did you think?

[Dave Mahan]

I wasn't surprised. Yeah, I mean, it's not comforting. I mean, how would you feel if. Yeah, I mean, I live here.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Dave Mahan]

I don't want my place being in the national spotlight.

[Kana Whitworth]

And as for the gate that's supposed to lock the park after dusk, Dave says he closes it, but if he has campers, he leaves it unlocked for them to come and go. He doesn't monitor it too closely. He says a person could walk right through for a night hike if they wanted to. Still, I wonder how Coburger's alibi will hold up in the courtroom. And I brought this up with our legal experts, Matt Murphy and Brian Buckmire.

[Matt Murphy]

Brian and Matt, there's been a lot of talk about this alibi. At one point, Judge, Judge called it a so called alibi because there wasn't a lot of detail. And so his team then provided this follow up, noting that Bryan Kohberger sort of made this habit of going out to this remote park and that he started in the summer running and hiking, and then his school got busy. It turned into these nighttime drives. And they say he has all these photos on his phone depicting the night sky on several different occasions, including November. I'm fascinated by their decision to enter this alibi with so few details. Brian, I'll start here with you. I drove out to Wawai Park. You lose cell phone service completely about 15 or so minutes before you even get to the park. But why provide this alibi? That still leaves so many questions.

[Brian Buckmire]

Remember, we as attorneys have to play by certain rules. And I think the easiest way I explain it to people who come in contact with the criminal justice system is it's not what you know, it's what you can prove. And so one, when it comes to alibis, I think Idaho and New York, where I practice operate in a very similar way that it's if you don't announce it, you don't get to use it. And so you have to put forward what your alibi is because you're supposed to not spring this all in your opposition. It's supposed to have the ability to verify it and confirm it. However, there are competing constitutional rights here. When you tell me that Bryan Kohberger does these solo drives and goes out there, in my mind, I'm thinking, how are you going to prove that? But putting Bryan Kohberger on the stand, because you need someone to be able to give that firsthand knowledge. For example, when I'm stressed out and my wife and son are now sleeping right now, I'll sometimes go to the garage and I'll juggle a soccer ball. That's how I kind of like decompress, right? But no one can tell you that's true. My wife can't testify to that. You guys can't testify to that. That would all be hearsay. Maybe this video in my garage of me juggling a ball, but you would still need someone to be able to say that's a true and accurate representation of what that depicts. So in terms of the rules of evidence, only Bryan Kohberger can bring that in, but he has a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself. And so they have to give enough to get the alibi, but they can't give you everything without putting their client up. And they're not willing to do that, especially at this point. And they may have a very difficult time doing that come trial. If he has photos, the only way I could maybe imagine that coming in as an alibi is there is usually like a digital footprint to a photo that says, yeah, the metadata that tells you the time and often location of where it is. I think even if you don't have service, the metadata should still stamp where you are and what time. You would have to have someone that does data mining to get that out of the phone, who can testify to that and not have Brian Coburger do it. But that's still a lot of hoops to jump through. And so you've got to do it delicately at this phase.

[Matt Murphy]

So I think you're right about all of that. And Matt, I'll get your opinion here. I spoke with a cell phone expert who explained essentially that this metadata does exist on a photograph. Even if you're out of service, even if your phone is in airplane mode.

[Ben Levitan]

Metadata that's embedded in every photograph that'll give you the GPS location of the picture where that photo was taken. The most interesting, even if you had no service, it would have that data in it.

[Kana Whitworth]

Ben Levitan is an independent telecommunications expert witness and I interviewed him over the phone while I was in Idaho. He's not involved in a case, but he's been watching it closely. Hoburger's defense team's alibi filing didn't clarify if they have a photo from the night in question, but they say they have several from the area depicting the night sky on multiple occasions, including November. Kohberger's cell phone data from that night reportedly shows his phone pinging off two cell towers in Pullman and Moscow, with the exception of a two hour period beginning at 2:47am when his phone apparently disconnected from the network. Ben cautioned that in a remote area like this, with cell towers spread so far apart, it may be a challenge for either side to prove his location.

[Ben Levitan]

There's a cell tower in Pullman that covers his house. There's a cell tower in Moscow that covers the campus. There's no cell towers between these two cell towers because it's such a rural area. These two slightly overlap. There's no expert in the world who can look at that and pinpoint where someone is located. It's just not possible.

[Ingrid Beatty]

Yeah, it's fascinating technology. The problem for Mr. Coburger on this, evidence wise, is that it's not that he went out of range. As I understand it, he actually turned his phone off and he was pinging on transponders in the same direction on his way to the murder scene, and then he turned his phone back on when he came back in. That's the prosecution's position on that. The defense may call an expert to try to challenge that, but that's the current state of the evidence, as I understand it.

[Matt Murphy]

I think it was almost an open question of did he turn his phone off, did he turn it on airplane mode? I think that's what the prosecution was openly questioning. And then it sounds to me like the defense might be coming back and saying maybe neither of those things were true. Maybe he was just out of cell range.

[Ingrid Beatty]

It's some of the strongest evidence that the prosecution has in this. And, of course, the timing matches up perfectly from the time he left his house to the time it would take to drive to the murder scene and get back. It's very, very close. The timing fits. Well, every murder case like this, it's important to remember there are collages of evidence. It's not just one piece that we just look at in light of itself and nothing else. The jury will be instructed at the end that they must consider every piece of evidence in light of every other piece of evidence. And so it's going to be layers. You know, we're going to have that cell phone stuff. The defense will attack that, as they always do. We'll see how that plays out in the battle of the experts on that.

[Brian Buckmire]

I'll give you the defense side just to balance it out. Your phone, if it's on and connected and running, is going to find the closest tower to be able to give you service. If you are too far from a tower, then you won't connect. If you've ever driven in a rural area and you are talking on a phone and a phone call drops out, that's you being too far away from a tower. And the argument is, is that if the tower can't find you, then you're not pinging. And so you can not ping because you turn off your phone because you put it on airplane mode, or, as a defense attorney would argue, you're out of range. And that argument can make sense in a rural area to the point that Matt brought up. There are so many reasons why you can imagine that Bryan Kohberger is guilty, whether it be the DNA, the pinging, the Honda Elantra. And I made this joke in jury selection. Some people would say, well, it's got a bill, it's got webbed feet, and it's got a tail, so it must be a duck. And I was like, well, duckbill platypuses also have those things as well, and they're not ducks. You can't just look at the individual elements and say, well, he must be guilty. Because of these three points. You can say, well, cell phone pinging, he's out of range. DNA on the sheath. I have clothes at friends places that I forgot or I've gone to college parties, and my clothes end up somewhere else. The Honda Elantra, that's not his Honda Elantra. How many Honda Elantras that are white are in that area and are registered? If you start picking apart at these things, it could create reasonable doubt. But in these death penalty cases, sometimes it's just about raising enough doubt in the trial that people say, I think they're guilty, but I'm not sure if I want to take their life. And sometimes these cases, the win is not the guilt or innocence. The win is just saving their life. And I think Ann Taylor, for at least what I'm seeing, is operating on that basis of, I'm gonna throw enough at you that he might be guilty, but is he guilty enough that you want to take his life?

[Matt Murphy]

Can I ask you Yalls general thoughts too? Because, frankly, this was a little bit shocking to us when we drove out to Wawai park, we went and knocked on the door of the superintendent of the park. This is a man who lives on the park year round with his family. He's done it for many years. I was the first person to knock on his door. He said, I've been waiting for someone to come. The prosecution has not knocked on his door. The defense has not knocked on his door. Law enforcement has not knocked on his door. Why is no one talking to this guy?

[Brian Buckmire]

Matt, you want to take this one first?

[Ingrid Beatty]

Short answer is, I don't know. Sometimes the defense, it's like Brian said, they have to announce their alibi, and they've got a long way to go before trial to develop that. These cases get worked up all the way to the end. Some people think that once an arrest is made, the investigation is over. And in reality, in murder cases, especially capital murder, cases. It's the ethical obligation of the prosecutor to keep an open mind all the way throughout the prosecution. From their perspective, though, they're probably looking at it like chasing down what they would consider to be an unconvincing alibi is probably pretty low on their priority, but I don't know.

[Kana Whitworth]

Sure.

[Matt Murphy]

But, you know, I was out there with a producer of mine, and we were walking around the park together, getting a sense of what it's like, and we were talking about how I bet Ann Taylor's done all of this. I bet she's walked around here. I bet she's asked her client, where exactly were you? Where did you go? Where were you standing when you took the pictures? All kinds of things like that. And then we went and knocked on Dave's door, and just the fact that no one had had a conversation with him about, like, hey, what's this park like in November?

[Brian Buckmire]

The jury's not going to do what you did, Kanan. And this is one of the reasons why I don't have journalists on my jury, because you want to get the answers to every question. You want to go to the scene, see what it's like, hear the information. But for the defense attorney, if I can give you just enough to give you reasonable doubt, that's my job. If I go further than that and I answer the question and the question is a bad one, then it doesn't help my case. And so a defense attorney may stop at a point for two reasons. One, if they go all the way to answering the question and they intend to use it at trial, that's now discoverable, and you have to turn over to the prosecutor, and then the prosecutor has the ability to disprove one of your strong arguments. The second part is, if you go all the way down the rabbit hole, further than what you need, you may lose an argument that worked for you, because maybe you do go there and you find out that you have to sign in your name every time you go to the park, and Brian Kohlberger's name is not there. That signed in. Well, damn, I just screwed myself over there.

[Ingrid Beatty]

Brian's exactly right. That's a really interesting point. It's like, sometimes, you know, defense wise, you've got to be very careful about being too clever and screwing up your case because you're, you know, almost too good a sleuth. But, yeah, you're a very good journalist. So let's put it. Let's put it down to that. You're professional.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, thanks. Yeah, we're gonna. We'll start the podcast with that. Great.

[Kana Whitworth]

Thanks guys. You're probably wondering what happened at the end of the change of venue hearing. Did the judge grant the defense's motion? Well, as this judge seems to have a pattern of doing in this case, he decided to take his time. He said both sides made strong arguments and that he'll need to spend more time considering the logistics of relocation and concerns about media coverage biasing a potential jury.

[Brian Edelman]

I would say this is professionally the most feasible decision I ever had to make.

[Kana Whitworth]

He said both sides made strong arguments and that he'll need to spend more time considering the logistics of relocation and the concerns about media coverage tainting a potential jury. He said he'll go through everything and go back to the law again too. Until then, a decision will have to wait. We'll be back in your feed with important updates on this case. Season two of the King Road Killings will cover the trial of Bryant Kohberger next summer. This bonus episode was produced by ABC Audio.

[Brad Milke]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. It's Brad Milke, host of ABC's Daily News podcast. Start Here. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.