A Preventable Tragedy

Summary

The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

Episode: “A Preventable Tragedy”

Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Patia Eaton (Hannah Smith on hiatus)
Guest: Michael Foot, Attorney & Host of "Brief Recess"

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the murder of Lauren Johansson, focusing on the legal and systemic failures that allowed accused abuser Bryson Rivers to be released on bond—ultimately leading to Lauren’s death. Host Patia Eaton is joined by attorney Michael Foot, who provides detailed legal analysis and insight into how gaps in the bond, court, and monitoring systems contributed to this “preventable tragedy.” The episode is framed as an exploration of not just the crime, but its devastating ripple effects and the shortcomings of the justice system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: The Lives of Lauren Johansson and Bryson Rivers

• Lauren’s Story

  • Born in 2001 to a loving family (10:22)
  • Attended University of Southern Mississippi for nursing; high-achieving student (13:05)
  • Volatile relationship with Bryson Rivers since high school, escalating to abuse (10:47–13:22)

• Dynamic of Abusive Relationships

  • Michael speaks candidly about his experiences and how “abusers are relentless and want to find their way back in.” (12:33)
  • Abuse is about control, not love: “It's not about someone's level of intelligence…these abusers are really relentless and want to find their way back in, and it's often subversive.” [Patia, 12:33]

2. The December 2023 Attack in Nashville

• After an argument during a trip to Nashville, Bryson attacks Lauren in a parking lot, violently beating her and holding her hostage (14:29–14:54)

• Lauren manages to call her parents, providing critical evidence and allowing police to find her using the Life360 app (17:26–18:14)

• Michael highlights the rarity and impact of such physical and digital evidence in domestic violence cases (19:19)

  “Physical evidence is always gonna be better than testimony...so seeing this and hearing that, knowing there was a phone call, knowing that there was body cam footage, I think from the police and having that DNA evidence is just like...extraordinary, like slam dunk.”
  —Michael Foot, [19:19]

3. Legal Proceedings: Arrest, Charges, and the Bail System

• Charges: Bryson arrested and charged with aggravated kidnapping, stalking, and coercion of a witness (20:04)

• Bond Set: Initial bond at $251,000, described as high due to the severity (20:23)

• Bail Process Explained: Michael outlines the “absolutely unhinged” bail bondsman system and its inherently inequitable and risky nature (20:57–24:43)

  “Judges determine bond amounts...most people don’t have a quarter million dollars sitting at a bank account, so they go to a bail bondsman...It's kind of like this little bit of a gamble, but it's quite lucrative for a lot of people.” —Michael Foot, [20:57]

• Bond Lowered: Despite Lauren’s father warning that “if you let Bryson Rivers out, he will kill my daughter,” Judge Cheryl Blackburn reduces the bond to $150,000 (25:49–26:30; 28:09–31:05)

  “This is an unusual decision for a judge to lower bond based off this evidence...judges are usually pretty quick to leave bond where it is, especially because we have this robust bondsman business.”
  —Michael Foot, [30:23]

4. Systemic Failures: Gaps in Monitoring and Communication

• Bonding and GPS Monitoring Mishaps:

  • Bryson’s mother pays two companies to post bond; he’s released just after 4pm—too late for the GPS company to properly install his monitor (34:44–35:20)
  • The monitor installer, working several jobs, takes Bryson’s word on his release conditions, allowing him to travel out of state (38:09–39:52)
  • Communication breakdowns: The clerk’s office fails to send full release conditions to monitoring agencies (53:51–54:10)
  • The result: Bryson leaves Tennessee and returns to Mississippi; multiple alerts are missed or go unheeded (41:00–43:53)

  “The system is not set up to protect victims. Our judicial system fails victims all the time…Oftentimes the onus is placed upon domestic violence victims to protect themselves.”
  —Michael Foot, [39:11]

• Notification Failure: Lauren’s father receives only a voicemail alerting of Bryson’s release, which he listens to days later (42:47–43:00)

5. The Murder of Lauren Johansson

• After being released, Bryson travels to Lauren’s home, kidnaps her, and ultimately murders her (44:14–46:48)

• Her body is found in her car’s trunk at a Mississippi cemetery; Bryson flees but is apprehended nearby (46:48–47:04)

• Michael and Patia stress the meticulous recordkeeping and victim advocacy of Lauren’s father, Lance Johansson, who has since filed a $150 million civil suit against those responsible (47:41–50:18)

  “He did everything I think he could have done...by that time, your child is an adult. You don't get to just, yeah, like, lock them in their room if you're scared for their safety.”
  —Patia Eaton, [47:57]

6. Aftermath: Legal Fallout and Broader Implications

• Civil Suit: Lance Johansson sues 15 defendants, including both the monitoring and bond companies (49:04–50:18)

• Judicial Competence Questioned: Attorneys raise concerns over Judge Blackburn’s mental fitness post-stroke; her decision-making is scrutinized by peers (51:00–52:32)

• Review Panel: Six-judge panel finds “small errors” added up to catastrophic system failure but does not penalize bond agencies (52:59–54:10)

• Michael’s Perspective: Emphasizes that errors in the system—sometimes by overworked or undertrained individuals—have literal life-and-death consequences (57:04–58:44)

  “...if I screw up sometimes in court, it can be life and death for a client...But it's also like...can I give myself grace as someone who works in these extreme...I have chosen a career where I am at the nexus of life and death for other people.”
  —Michael Foot, [57:04]

7. Final Reflections

• Systemic Inequity: The bail/bond system is fundamentally flawed, privileging those with money or connections and sometimes allowing dangerous individuals out (64:05–66:34)

• Call to Action: There’s need for oversight, reform, and multiple safeguards—both for the sake of future victims and the integrity of the justice system

  “This story is, like—it's truly heartbreaking because it does feel preventable, and we owe victims of domestic violence protection from their abusers. And it didn't happen here. And so that was a failure.”
  —Patia Eaton, [64:05]

  “At the heart is just people. And depending on how much funding there is, depending on a lot of different factors, there’s errors that are made.” —Hannah Smith, [66:54]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “It's not always about loving that person. It's always about control.” —Michael Foot, [11:51]
• “You would just never know [someone is being abused]. It's incredible.” —Michael Foot, [12:49]
• “These deadlines...have real critical life and death ramifications on both sides.” —Michael Foot, [35:20]
• “This is a situation that no one should have been in...the onus is placed upon domestic violence victims to protect themselves.” —Michael Foot, [39:11]
• “It’s just incredibly sad. Bryson Rivers stands trial in 2026 right now. And, you know, I’m sure Michael and I will keep in touch about it.” —Patia Eaton, [68:06]
• “...the criminal justice system is held together with like paperclips and bubblegum...” —Michael Foot, [40:31]
• “Judges are usually pretty quick to leave bond where it is...So it was just kind of like a little. I was like, this is unusual when I read this.” —Michael Foot, [30:23]
• “...if you let Bryson Rivers out, he will kill my daughter.” —Paraphrased from Lance Johansson’s court testimony, discussed at [25:49–26:30]

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• Michael Foot’s Legal Background: [04:45–07:55]
• Domestic Violence Dynamics: [10:47–13:05]
• Details of December 2023 Attack: [14:28–19:19]
• How Bond Works: [20:57–24:43]
• Bond Lowered Despite Warnings: [25:49–31:38]
• Systemic Bond and Monitoring Failures: [34:44–39:52]
• Notification and Search Efforts: [42:47–44:16]
• Timeline of Failure & Murder: [44:16–47:04]
• Lance Johansson’s Advocacy & Lawsuit: [47:41–50:18]
• Judge Blackburn’s Competence & Systemic Review: [51:00–54:10]
• Concluding Frustrations with the System: [57:04–68:34]

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Podcast Tone and Approach

• Empathetic, solution-oriented, and respectful towards the victim and her family
• Frank, sometimes exasperated legal analysis (especially from Michael)
• Calls out both individual failings and larger systemic flaws
• Open about not having all the answers, but driven by a desire for justice and reform

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode of The Knife delivers a deeply reported, empathetic account of how multiple, mundane institutional failures can allow a fatal tragedy to occur. Through Michael Foot’s accessible legal commentary and Patia’s dogged focus on the human dimension, it’s a case study in how “the system” is sometimes little more than a handful of overworked, underpaid people making fallible decisions—decisions that can prove deadly for those the justice system is meant to protect.

The case of Lauren Johansson is described not only as “horrific” but “preventable.” The hosts leave listeners with open-ended questions about justice, accountability, and what real change might look like.

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Follow up: Listeners are encouraged to watch for updates on this trial and civil lawsuit, and to listen to Michael Foot’s “Brief Recess” for more legal deep dives.

Transcript

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[A]

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Definitely fit. So go ahead and order [e-mail] search the knife and orders need to be placed by December 14th in order to receive them by the 25th. This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[C]

The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.

[D]

If I screw up sometimes in court, like it can be life and death for a client. I have clients who are up for Deportation, where if they do get deported, they will die.

[C]

Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.

[A]

I'm Patia Eaton. So, Hannah, you were out of town when we ended up recording this, but you and I have talked about this case a bit over the last year, and that is the murder of Lauren Johansson, whose ex boyfriend, Bryson Rivers, is currently charged with capital murder.

[C]

So in the studio with you for this episode is Michael Foot, whose new show, Brief Recess, is part of the Exactly Right Media Network. He's an attorney who was really able to walk you through all of the legal happenings in this case. He talks about the questionable decision making by a Tennessee judge, multiple communication gaps between the clerk and the bonding agencies, and, you know, how it all kind of led to Bryson Rivers released, because.

[A]

Had he not been released, Lauren would very well still be here.

[C]

Yeah. So that's a really pivotal thing that happened. I just want to say I love listening to this episode, excited for people to hear it. In the beginning, Patia and Michael chat for a bit about Michael's career, and then they get into these case details. Let's get into it.

[A]

Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eaton, and Hannah is out this week, but she will be back. And today I'm in studio with our guest attorney, Michael Foot.

[D]

Hi.

[A]

Hi.

[D]

Thank you for having me. Good. Yeah, I know Hannah's out and she's.

[A]

Out, but she was. Sorry to miss you.

[D]

They lowered me in on wires, and here I am. I'm excited to join. I love being here.

[A]

Well, we're so happy to have you because the case that we're going to be discussing today, the legal side of it is so. I mean, maybe not to some people, but to me, like, very complex and multilayered and important. And so to have you here today.

[D]

I called a criminal defense lawyer and came real fast. I'm ready to talk. I've actually. I've worked on both sides of the aisle, so I've been a criminal defense attorney for many years, and I do a lot of work with immigration law. But I also. A lot of people don't know this. I have a dark past working for a prosecutor's office.

[A]

Tell me more about that.

[D]

Yeah, I worked for the New Orleans Parish. The Orleans Parish Prosecution.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

So I was there. I went to law school at Tulane. So I lived in New Orleans for many years. And it's very much the crime capital of America. And a lot of what happened in New Orleans is that if you want to work in criminal law, you go to New Orleans because there's so much crime and the city's so underfunded that the work that you get as a junior lawyer as a law student is so voluminous. You get your hands on murder trials at the age of 23. You get to work with survivors. Right. You get to work on these really, really complicated lawsuits right out the gate. So even, like, I was going to school down south there, but there were a lot of people who went to I league schools in the northeast who moved to New Orleans because they wanted to learn criminal law. And if you're working in New York City as a criminal defense attorney right out of law school, it's going to take a decade before you get your hands on a really complicated lawsuit. It was fricking wild.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds so intense. I can only imagine what it would be like if you're on trial for murder and a 23 year old.

[D]

Oh, my God. I know, right? Yes, it really is like that. My boss at the prosecutor's office was probably 27. She was in charge of me. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure you noticed this as you're sort of talking to so many people on this show. The thing about working in criminal law, the thing about getting into that machine is it's a really dark place, right. A lot of lost, damaged people find it. As a profession, myself included, I've been very open about this on my show. I host a show, Brief Recess, on exactly the right network. It airs November 13, so check it out. Check it out, please. Everywhere you get podcasts and on YouTube. But I was very much one of those people, especially at that age. Like, I was struggling, really, with an abusive relationship with alcohol. I was having some really complicated personal relationships as a gay man. And it was a really, really dark time in my life, just like struggling with depression and anxiety. I talked a little bit about this with Georgia the other day on my favorite murder, about just like going through significant depression, right. And like tools that we use. But at that time, it was a great place for me to be in criminal court. It was where I needed to be. Right. It's sort of this place where the lost souls of the world end up. You're in this moment with people when their entire life is falling apart or this extreme crisis, or you're in this moment when people are going through the worst possible moment of their life. And as someone who has gone through those moments, you get to be there for someone in that moment, knowing no one was there for you and yours, right?

[A]

Yeah. It's so purposeful.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Even though it's probably like there's such a darkness to it in your day to day. I mean, even working in True Crime, like I am a consumer of True crime content, but even me, sometimes I have to take a moment and kind of, you know, if I'm interviewing someone and it's really emotive or like I'm like, this isn't my story. I just have to hold it together. But it's not always.

[D]

You want to know what I do? I had an acupuncturist teach me this. We'll get into the story in a minute, but when I'm interviewing someone, I do a lot of victim work and advocacy for migrants. And what's happening to immigrants in America right now is absolutely insane. So I'm hearing really tragic, horrific stories of things that happened to people in their home country and why they came here and knowing, looking down the pike of what could possibly happen if they are deported. An acupuncturist taught me this. It's a little bit hippie dippy bullshit, but you take a finger and you point it at the floor when someone's sort of trauma sharing and it's sort of like an antenna of just like energetic antenna where whatever you're sort of like receiving, you're sort of saying like, let it flow through you and go back to the earth.

[A]

Okay, right. So you're not like storing all of that up.

[D]

Yeah, because I find like I do a lot of intake work. Like I would do work with like nonprofits and do intake for them and sort of assess if someone had a really strong immigration case and I was absorbing a lot of it and I.

[A]

And probably to like accurately assess those situations, you have to be this vessel.

[D]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

This like clear headed.

[D]

And I'm sure that happens to you and Hannah as well. Of just like when you're talking to victims and survivors, like when I'm prepping a victim for the witness stand or when I'm prepping a witness, you kind of have to go through it with them in order especially to get the testimony you need to win that suit. So I get it. I've been there. I smell what you're stepping in.

[A]

You totally understand. Yeah. So the case that we're going to be talking about today is centered around the murder of Lauren Porter Johansson. And that murder is alleged to have been committed by her on again, off again boyfriend, Bryson Rivers. But I'll just start from the beginning because it's such a layered story and I know that you're gonna have so much insight into not only how the justice system is operating here, but also how in domestic violence situations, how do we protect people and prevent things like this from happening?

[D]

Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So Lauren Johansson was born on October 30, 2001. She's from Ocean Springs, Mississippi. She was raised in a loving family with very supportive parents. She had siblings. When Lauren got to high school, you know, I think like most high school girls, she began dating. And her boyfriend was a football player. He went to a neighboring high school. And her boyfriend's name at this time is Bryson Rivers.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

So their relationship, even in high school, was volatile. Very. You know, breaking up, getting back together, which can be typical of.

[D]

We've all been there.

[A]

But theirs was very explosive. But, you know, Lauren could kind of see beyond this, and she had big plans for her life, and when it was time to go off to college, she made the decision to cut things off with Bryson Rivers, and she broke up with him. And it seemed like the further she got from him and their relationship, the more she really thrived.

[D]

Of course. Yeah. I mean, you're in an abusive relationship. I've been there where. Especially when I was working for the prosecutor's office in New Orleans, I was in one of those relationships where it was really emotionally codependent in an unhealthy way. And the further you get away from that person's orbit, the healthier and happier you kind of are.

[A]

Totally. And in some cases, in abusive relationships, which becomes the case in Lawrence, that person. The further you do get from their orbit, the more they sort of try to, like, exert control.

[D]

Oh, yes. Yes. It's not. It's never about, like, loving that person. It's always about control. I think people read DV cases or they hear about them, and it's like, well, how could you ever. Why wouldn't you? And it's like, that's such, like, a weird way to frame it, or just, like, an inaccurate way to frame it.

[A]

Totally.

[D]

Because it's like, well, why wouldn't you leave him? It's like you don't understand, like, what that person's going through. Like, when I was in, like, emotionally abusive relationships and never got physical, but it was definitely like, I saw similarities in this case to what I've been through, and it was very much like, oh, I know exactly why this person didn't leave. Like, you need that. In a way, it's an addiction, kind of. For me, at least. And I'm not speaking for all DV survivors here.

[A]

Yeah. But it's important to note, like, it's not about someone's level of intelligence. It doesn't always mean they don't have a supportive family. It's like, these abusers are really relentless and want to find their way back in, and it's often subversive.

[D]

It's also. It's very, very subtle sometimes. I mean, I've worked with clients who were survivors, and it was like, you would never know. It was like, the perfect wealthy family sociopic economic class. Like, you would just never know. It's incredible.

[A]

Yeah. And Lauren, you know, she was no exception. As she got further away from Bryson Rivers, she went off to college. She went to University of Southern Mississippi, studied nursing. She seemed to be thriving. She was a diligent student, made the Dean's list, National Honor Society.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

But Bryson never stopped pursuing this relationship. And eventually, at some point, Lauren let him back into her life. You know, we've talked about, like, how common this is. You can look at something from the outside, and it can feel so clear. Like, why would you go back to this person? But it's so layered and complex. They were college age. I don't know that Bryson was even going to school.

[D]

But of course, when I was college age.

[A]

Come on. You don't know which way is up. It's like you're so young, you have so much life ahead of you, but you don't have, obviously, as much life experience to draw from. And so eventually, Lauren and Bryson get back together. And In December of 2023, they travel from their home state of Mississippi, where they're both from, to Tennessee to the Nashville area for a vacation. Okay, so this is in December of 2023. They're both in their early 20s, I think at the time. Lauren is 21 or 22. Bryson's maybe a year older. So after a night out, you know, they're drinking. Bryson accuses Lauren of maybe cheating on him. Or he's angry. Yeah.

[D]

There was, like, a bartender talking to the bartender.

[A]

Talking to the bartender.

[D]

She got jealous. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. So he gets really angry. They leave the bar, this argument ensues, and they get into their. I don't know if Bryson forces her into the car, but they both get into the car, and he starts driving away. He takes her phone at some point, and he's becoming violent, eventually pulls over and starts brutally attacking Lauren.

[D]

Yeah. And he isolated her. He took her out of public, put her in a car, took away the phone. Like, he really did Isolate her away from anyone who could have possibly intervened.

[A]

Which tells me he knows this is unacceptable.

[D]

It's premeditated. Right. It's something we deal with all the time, especially in these types of cases. It's like a horror film, right? Like, we go to the cabin in the woods, the lights go out, the electricity goes out, phone service, and that is when the horrors sort of occur. So that is like a very common trope, especially in DV cases and murder cases. It is a very common theme where we see abusers isolating a person, taking away their ability to spend money or their physical agency. It is very common, and it comes up all the time. This was extreme and happened in an instant. Oftentimes it's over many years, and it's, oh, just this person's name is on the deed of the house, or, oh, just this person has access to this one bank account. Or, oh, you should quit your job, or you shouldn't talk to that friend anymore, or, oh, your mom's being really toxic. Maybe cut off that relationship, and it's slowly. Right. Death by a thousand paper cuts.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know how long they had been back together when this happened, but they had separated before this. And her family was very aware that he was no good. And that had to have just been, like, an impossible situation for them. Because I'm sure you wouldn't want to cut off contact by saying, I'm not gonna condone this, but you also would want to say, like, this is unsafe. I mean, I don't know what was said, but from everything I read, it seems like her family was just like the most loving, supportive family. And, you know, and it's one of.

[D]

Those things where it's like, families are often in this very precarious situation where it's like, if we cut off the relationship with the victim or if we put down too firm of a foot, or if we are too strongly opinionated, we might lose access altogether to this person, and then we won't be able to advocate and help.

[A]

Exactly. It's a very, very difficult line to walk. And so they leave this bar. This is in December 2023. They leave this bar. He attacks her. He brings her to another location, this parking lot. And we learn later that anytime a car passes by, he covers her mouth so that she can't scream for help. He has a gun with him that he's hitting her with. I mean, it is a violent, violent attack. And at some point, really miraculously, Lauren's able to call her parents during the attack.

[D]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

And they.

[D]

It's insane that she was able to do that. That's incredible.

[A]

It's incredible. And, you know, her parents were back in Mississippi. They, at this point, know Bryson Rivers is not someone that she's safe with. So I'm sure they were already concerned, but they hear that she's being attacked by him, and so they're frantically trying to get her help. And they have the Life360 app.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

And so they were able to. From her phone.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So from her phone data, her Life360 app, telling them her location, they were able to get local authorities to get there and help her, which. It's amazing that that happened because. Do you. I can imagine getting a call from my daughter states away.

[D]

Of course. Yeah.

[A]

And being like, how do I help here? But, yeah. So they were able to get local authorities on the scene.

[D]

And those calls are often critical evidence at trial. So those are things that, like, I use 911 calls all the time. When I worked for the DA's office in New Orleans, that was my job was to prep the 911 phone operators for the witness stand. We would subpoena the person who answered the phone and have them testify.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

So those calls are. That is gonna come up at trial, because I know we're not at trial yet.

[A]

For sure it will come up. Well, her parents call, and then the police dispatch get there, and I think Bryson is running from the car when they arrive, or they capture him right away, or maybe within a few hours.

[D]

It's unclear. There was, like, a scuffle. There was some sort of dust up, because I think his mugshot. He's bloodied. He has marks on his face.

[A]

He has Lauren's blood all over him.

[D]

Oh, is that what that was? Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So he has Lauren's blood all over him when police capture him. And, you know, there's blood all over the interior of the car. There's blood on the gun. There's blood on Bryson Rivers. I mean, this was a brutal attack. And Lauren is severely injured. She has to recover in the hospital.

[D]

She's been in the hospital for a few days. And this is the. When I was reading this, I was like, this is a very interesting case because we don't often have that physical evidence in DB cases, and they oftentimes get dropped. So this is critical physical evidence. Physical evidence is always gonna be better than testimony because we can have experts testify to it. We can. A blood splatter expert. We can call the lab tech, we can call all sorts of people. Who can come and testify. It's sort of a he said, she said. In any other situation, if we don't have that physical evidence. So seeing this and hearing that, knowing there was a phone call, knowing that there was body cam footage, I think from the police and having that DNA evidence is just like. It's huge, extraordinary, like slam dunk. If I'm that defense attorney. We are pleading this out big time. We are taking the plea, whatever the first offer is.

[A]

Yeah. Because the police arrest Bryson Rivers and he's charged with aggravation, kidnapping, aggravated stalking, coercion of a witness.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Lauren, as we said, recovers in the hospital. Well, Lauren's father is a surgeon.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

So he catalogs her injuries. She has over a hundred. Was hit over a hundred times.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And so they did everything they could do to show the court this is a very dangerous person who will no doubt do this again. Here is a family who did everything that they could do to protect their daughter, and ultimately she was not protected. And so Bryson's charged aggravated kidnapping, aggravated stalking, coercion of a witness. And his Bond is set $251,000. And he's unable to post this bond because bond plays such a big role in this. Can you talk a little bit about.

[D]

What it actually is?

[C]

Of course.

[D]

Of course. Oh, my God. Bond is a fucking wild thing in America. It's absolutely unhinged. So bail bondsmen are effect a financial institution that underwrites a bond so that someone can get released when they don't have the money. So they're like the loan company, so they have a lien on your bond. Judges determine bond amounts, and that is critical. In this case here, there are sentencing guidelines, there are bond guidelines based off the severity of the crime. So in Tennessee, the severity of the crime was equal to $250,001. Judges have discretion when determining what the bond is. However, once a defendant is sort of given a bond amount, most people don't have a quarter million dollars sitting at a bank account. So they go to a bail bondsman and they act as a financial institution. That institution, it's usually near the courthouse. It's usually run. I don't want to. Was it like throw shade? Yeah, I don't want to throw shade at all bail bondsmen in America. But you're not going to Citibank, you're not going to bank of America to get one of these. This is like a bond company that is like a loan service. And it's oftentimes high rates, oftentimes owned by one individual. And how it works is a bail bondsman under rights will sort of pay that money to the court. The defendant will be on the hook. And that ensures that if that person flees or violates the terms of their bond, the bail bondsman is on the hook with the court. So you're sort of like this, stand in for them.

[A]

And so you're then incentivized to make sure that these people that you're signing off on do as they're told when they're released because their charges are still pending.

[D]

And that is where we get this sort of exciting concept of the bounty hunter, right. That we see it all over film and television. These like, you know, badasses who wear leather and ride motorcycles and like round up the bad guys. They usually work for a bondsman because bail bond companies don't have authority. They're not government agencies. These are private entities. And because they're usually like some guy near the courthouse, they themselves are underwritten by insurance companies. So the insurance companies will have a stake. So it is very much like this three card shuffle. It's kind of like this little bit of a gamble, but. But it's quite lucrative for a lot of people. I don't want to shit on the industry of bondsmen. I know it is a really fucked up situation in this case, but they serve like a vital force in the criminal law community because you are not guilty until we prove it in court. Right, right. So we presume innocence in America for now and we decide that. We say that if you're accused of a diwi, we have to prove it before you are actually held accountable for it with sentenc. So we're not just going to throw you in jail until that happens. And that's where the concept of bond comes up.

[A]

Yeah, in theory. This really important system that allows people who are innocent to not be sitting in jail until their trial happens.

[D]

And it happens all the fucking time. I've worked on cases where the prosecutors are so overzealous and what the charges are and then those witnesses fall through or then the police lose the evidence and then the person's released and the charges get dropped. It happens. Happens all the time. So bond is really important. I mean, I work in New York City and so we have different bond laws there. But just speaking generally in America, bond is really important because it can take years to get to trial.

[A]

Yeah, it's really important. And it's for the same reason, really important that the bonding company and we'll get into the GPS Tracking company communicate with the court clearly to make sure everyone's on the same page. And that is where this case really, I think, takes. I mean, obviously from the very beginning, this is a terrible case, but we.

[D]

Failed the victim here. We failed the victim here in society and as government institutions. I mean, this is really one where I've seen some weird and crazy situations come up with bondsmen and judges and weird rulings. But in this case, basically, the judge decided that not only should his bond be lowered, but that he should be bonded out. And he went and got a bond, and the bond had terms where he could not travel, which is very common.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And I want to dig into that because. So his original bond is set at $251,000, and he can't make this bond. He can't pay the small amount to the bail company. Not small amount, but the smaller amount to even have them post the debt.

[D]

Right. They lowered it to $150,000.

[A]

Right. So they advocate, you need to lower this bond. His public defender says, you need to lower the bond. You can't make the bond. Well, Lauren's dad goes to these hearings and he says, if you let Bryson Rivers out, he will kill my daughter. Like, he is dangerous. I mean, I guess I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but it is very close to that. He lays it all out. This is a violent person. He has attacked her more than once. I think it was like five or six times by this point. He details Lauren's injuries. I mean, he really makes a strong case for why this bond needs to stay really high. Because this is a very dangerous person.

[D]

Of course, yes.

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[A]

So Judge Cheryl Blackburn is the judge who ends up deciding whether or not to lower this bond. And she is provided with several pieces of evidence to base this decision off of, which, shockingly, includes body camera footage of this December 2023 attack where Lauren is seen in the car pounding on the window for help. I mean, it is.

[D]

It's really violent. It's brutal. I mean, I would. I would really hate to be the lawyer on this case. Cause it's a real loser.

[A]

Yeah. And she also has given audio of a call that Bryson Rivers made to Lauren from jail, where he asked her to just deny everything, which he's not supposed to have any contact with her.

[D]

My job for the DA's office, in addition to whatever I said earlier, I forget what it was. My job for the prosecutor's office when I was 23, was I would sit there all day with little earbuds in like this, and I would listen to phone calls from jail. All of those calls are recorded. And they tell you when you pick up the phone and someone is listening, it's me at 23, full head of hair listening to what you're saying. We would listen because people would oftentimes call their friend to be like, hey, when I get bonded out, I want to skip town and go to Mexico. And so I would be listening for that. And I would have to, like, narc on the pain.

[A]

This person wants to skip town and go to Mexico.

[D]

And I would have to write to my boss and be like, hey, the defendant's trying to flee. You have to bring this to the judge. And then we would get. Get the bond denied using that evidence.

[A]

And that is a good thing, because you can see that person's intentions, of course. So she's given this phone call, Bryson calling Lauren and saying, you know, deny everything. That's so brazen. Like, you just attacked this person. You know, that you've been arrested on really serious charges. And the judge also has someone present from the Metro Nashville Police Department Domestic Violence Unit comes in and testifies that Lauren said that while Bryson was beating her, he would cover her mouth when that car would pass by. So it's not just, you know, Lauren's dad saying Please don't release him. This is like hard evidence that she's being provided with to base this decision off of. And she ends up deciding to lower his bail by a hundred thousand dollars.

[D]

I have to be careful here because I'll get in trouble with the Bar association if I disparage courts and judges. But I have seen some really strange decisions made. We don't know what was brought to her in cham. I will say that based off what we can see and the fact pattern that I was given and the accounts and the articles that have been written, this is an unusual decision for a judge to lower bond based off this evidence. I've seen judges maintain bond most of the time in light of the evidence. So it was just kind of like a little. I was like, this is unusual when I read this because judges are usually pretty quick to leave bond where it is, especially because we have this robust bondsman business in America where you can get bonded out on a $2 million bond.

[A]

If you need to, you can go pay 10, 15%. And so it's like, okay, we'll go and do that, right? So she ends up lowering his bond to $150,000. But securing this bond still takes some time. And Bryson remains in custody for a couple more months after his bond is lowered. And his mother is like, calling all of these bonding companies trying to do this and figure out the 150. And she eventually finds two different bonding companies to each sign for, like, 75,000 DOL.

[D]

Oh, God. I just hate this so much because I'm thinking, like, we say this all the time on my show. What's going on in the home? What's going on in the home where this mom is helping her son? There's so much evidence that he's an abuser. This is just so disturbing to me because it's really upsetting. It just amazing.

[A]

It's surprising because it's like, if you're a.

[D]

We love our moms, right? Like, I.

[A]

It's like there's this primal urge, probably. I mean, my kid's a toddler, but, like, if your child is in trouble, I'm sure there is an innate sense of wanting to help them. However, are you even protecting your child?

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

If you know they're a danger to themselves and others. Yeah.

[D]

It's just extraordinary that she's trying to help bond him out and.

[A]

Oh, and it gets so much worse. So they end up posting the bond, and he's assigned a probation officer at this point, and he's made aware of his release conditions. So the district attorney's office was also supposed to receive the addresses where Bryson could not be, which would have, of course, included Lauren's address.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So Bryson's release conditions are that he needs to stay in Davidson county, which is in Tennessee. And, you know, he's from Mississippi. They were just visiting Tennessee. So he gives his attorney an address of where he can supposedly reside after he's released. It's located in Nashville, I think, but it's in Davidson County. He is supposed to wear a GPS tracking monitor.

[D]

Like an ankle monitor. Yeah, we see this. I mean, these are notorious in society and in pop culture. We see them on, you know, Anna Delvey walking at Fashion Week. We see them on the terms of his release. Having to stay in one place is like, very common. I think it's in Tennessee, unless it's a capital crime, you're eligible for.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

And a capital crime is just literally first degree murder, premeditated murder. Wow. Yeah. So that is wild that people are available for bond. And it also speaks a little bit to that state's sort of institutionalized prison system. Right. I mean, I talk about this a lot on my show where it's like, we are the incarceration capital of the world. And oftentimes states like Tennessee, these red states, it's an industry, it is a business. So the fact that they have those sort of bond structures speaks to the government in Tennessee. It speaks to what the legislature is willing to allow. Yeah, that would never fly in New York.

[A]

Well, good. Well, okay. Backing up a little bit. So he has to stay in Davidson county, where he's not from. He was visiting from Mississippi, gives his lawyer this address that he is supposedly able to go stay at because he has to be present for hearings and things like that. He's not supposed to have any contact with the victim. Lauren. Obviously, he cannot travel back to Mississippi. And how they are planning to enforce this is this GPS tracking monitor, which, of course, he can leave with the monitor on, but it's supposed to alert people, of course.

[D]

Yeah. Usually it's like a private company that manages these where they have some sort of connection to the government. You get the sense from this case because it failed in this situation. I mean, he fled, he left, and he ultimately went. Went and murdered the victim.

[A]

Lauren's life was at stake, her safety was at stake. And part of the rules around his release is that he is not to be released after 4pm because GPS tracking solutions, where he was supposed to have this monitor of fixed to his ankle was closed at 4, so he was released at 4:05pm oh my God.

[D]

This is one of those situations. This is like a nightmare situation for me. I avoid these, keep me up at night because it is. It's like that. I had a client who was deported because the package arrived at the immigration office five minutes late and it was like, can you just.

[A]

Unfathomable.

[D]

It's one of these situations. These are the things that just make me so stressed as an attorney. It's like these deadlines are deadlines sometimes and they have real critical life and death ramifications on both sides.

[A]

Totally. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

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[A]

It's unbelievable that this happened. And he knows that he is supposed to have this tracking monitor. He has to see his release conditions before being released. He's made aware of them. So he goes to another place to have his ankle monitor installed. Installed. Right. And the person who installs it doesn't have a copy of these release conditions.

[D]

Nope.

[A]

So she takes his word for what he says, which is that he can totally leave and it's okay. And she puts the ankle monitor on and. And what does he do? He immediately heads from Mississippi. And here is where his mother, which in a separate case, which we'll get into it, alleges that she sent that bonding company where he went to have his ankle monitor fixed because the ankle monitoring person was also working at the bonding company or something like that.

[D]

You get the sense that this is like the tiniest little town and the guy who runs the post office is also the gym teacher.

[A]

Right. It just should have never happened.

[D]

This has never happened. And it's also like, I mean, this was the moment in the case where I was like, the system is not set up to protect victims. Our judicial system fails victims all the time. And I'm saying that as a criminal defense attorney, right. Like, I am acutely aware of, like the hypocrisy of some of my statements here today. Like, this is a situation that no one should have been in. And oftentimes the onus is placed upon domestic violence victims to protect themselves. You talked about it a lot in this case. Her dad documented everything and was really organized. There is totally a world where if he didn't do that, he would have been bonded out for way less or their bond wouldn't have been set very high.

[A]

Oh, she was just catastrophically failed, of course. And this woman who installs this ankle monitor, she's taking his word for it. He tells her, I can travel, it's fine. So the GPS alert that is supposed to alert if he leaves the county, it's not. So he immediately, of course, leaves. And now a little bit of background on this person who installed the ankle monitor. It comes out later that she was working three jobs. She had a full time job, I believe, with child and family services and then two part time jobs, one of which was this newly formed ankle monitoring service.

[D]

I know this is one of these situations where like, I've known this for a long time, that like the criminal justice system is held together with like paperclips and bubblegum and they are very real people. It's like when the curtain is pulled back in wizard of Oz. And it's just like some guy. That is what a lot of this is held together by. And there are a lot of gaps, and it's underfunded. And we come to this place to try and get justice. And it is.

[A]

And it's like, what is? Once someone's been murdered.

[D]

Exactly. Yeah. How do we actually. What do we do with this?

[A]

Right. Because this is a violent abuser, and he was taken at his word. And so he, of course, immediately heads for Mississippi because his mother had sent $130, or this is what a lawsuit that we're gonna talk about later alleges sent $130 to this bonding company and says this is a bus ticket for him to come to Mississippi. Insane, Insane.

[D]

Crazy.

[A]

Insane. And so. So he goes and gets this ankle monitor installed. And then something happens where they realize you need the alert system set up. And so they say, come on back in. So he comes back in, and I think this happens on June 29th. He returns to get a new monitor or something fixed with this monitor. And so he gets this new ankle monitor system going, and he leaves again. And. And he heads to Mississippi. And now his ankle monitor, even though this alert system wasn't set up, it does show the monitoring service that the battery's running out.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And so he gets a call from this person who installed the ankle monitor, this company, and they say, look, you're down to 6%. You need to charge your monitor.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And apparently he does. And then they get a call from him hours later, like maybe around midnight, and he says that. That he's not gonna make it to his hearing tomorrow.

[D]

I'm sorry. This drives me crazy because I have clients who arrive a minute late to the hearing and are put in prison.

[A]

It's mind boggling. And in the week prior, you know, when he had been released, a call was made to Lauren's father saying that Bryson was going to be released.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But he doesn't get that call. He gets a message and he listens to a. It like three days later or something.

[D]

Oh, no. Which, like, who leaves voicemails anymore?

[A]

Who leaves voicemails? Like, this is important.

[D]

Someone has something in my voicemail. I hope it's not important because I'm not listening to it. The last thing I'll tell you, on.

[A]

The verge of 100% because I'm like, I can't listen to this. But I mean, if it's an unknown number, you're not going to answer.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you would think if it's something as important as this violent offender leaving town, violating his release terms, you would think someone's banging on your door. Of course.

[D]

And not just, like, a random phone call.

[A]

Not just a phone call. Oh, due diligence. We did our phone call. That's not enough.

[D]

Oh, my God, no. Of course.

[A]

People are living their lives.

[D]

And that is not the norm, by the way. I mean, it usually is. Like, there's a notice that goes to the local precinct. Usually, if that happens, like, there are usually systems in place. Like, that is why this is such an extreme case to be talking about. Like, this is so many layers of failure where it's like, you couldn't even write this right. It's so crazy.

[A]

And so then he returns to Mississippi, and by the time Lauren's father realizes that Bryson has been released and he's violated the terms of his release, he, I think, calls Lauren's sibling, who maybe was living with her at the time. They don't know where Lauren is. And so he files a missing persons report.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And that happens very quickly.

[D]

And then quick, quick PSA Missing person reports. Please file that them. When you notice the person's missing. There is this huge misinformation campaign that you have to wait 48 hours. You don't file it immediately when you notice it. And if they're giving you shit about it, be like, I don't care. File it anyway. This is like the police work for you. You pay their wages, your tax dollars go to support their entire institution, demand that they file a missing person's report and start looking and, like, take it upon yourself. Because we see the system fail people all the time. Like, get on the social medias. Like, now is just the time to post.

[A]

Right. So it sounds like he files this missing person's report for Lauren the very next morning. Yeah. But I just want to, like, recap really quick, how fast all of this is happening. So June 24, 2024, Bryson Rivers is released on bond. So on June 27, the bonding company is already having issues with the ankle monitor that was initially installed on Bryson Rivers. They asked him to return so that they can fix it. And by June 28, according to a lawsuit that's now filed against this bonding company, by June 28, they were aware that he was violating the conditions of his bond by traveling to Mississippi, which he had done by bus immediately after he was released. So June 29, Bryson Rivers returned to the bonding agency. And I saw on News Channel 5 in Nashville that they were provided a Photo of Bryson coming back to the bonding agency, and I believe it's from a security camera. And he arrives in Lauren's car. And it is believed that Lauren was in the passenger seat in that moment on June 29th. So if that's all correct, then that means Bryson Rivers, immediately after being released, took a bus to Mississippi, went to Lauren's place, got her and her car and drove back to Nashville, and then went into the bonding agency while presumably she's sitting out front in her own car while he gets his ankle monitor fixed. By the time that Lauren's father files this missing persons report, Lauren has likely already been killed. And so they were able to track Lauren's vehicle with its OnStar system, and it's located now back in Mississippi at a cemetery. Her body is in the trunk wrapped in, like, towels and trash bags. And Bryson Rivers flees the vehicle when police show up.

[D]

Oh, he was there.

[A]

He was still there.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then he's captured in the woods. I read that he made a phone call to his brother admitting that he had killed her. I mean, he has not been convicted of her murder, but he's now been charged with a little murder.

[D]

Of course, these are the facts being laid out at trial.

[A]

And Lance, Lauren's father, I cannot fathom the pain to lose a child or lose anyone you love in this way. I mean, it's so horrific. And she had her entire life ahead of her. I mean, I cannot imagine the pain that this family is feeling. And he has gone out there and spoken about the failure here and how his daughter was not protected. Of course, such composure. He's a good dad. No one owes anyone anything when you suffer a loss like that.

[D]

But, no, but he's really taken the opportunity to be, like, a victim's advocate. And everything he did through this case is just extraordinarily supportive. It's just like just documenting it and just reading it. I was like, wow, this is like dad of the year. Just being such an awesome dad.

[A]

He did everything I think he could have done. I mean, by that time, your child is an adult. You don't get to just, yeah, like, lock them in their room if you're scared for their safety. So Bryson Rivers has now been charged with capital murder, where he is back in custody. His trial right now is scheduled for 2026.

[D]

And finally a capital crime where he won't be eligible for bonds. Finally, like, he's now finally charged with a capital crime.

[A]

Right. It's, like, just awful that it had to come to that. And so Prosecutors have said that they intend to seek the death penalty. And his trial, originally set for late 2025 and now has been set for March 3, 2026. His courtroom behavior has been just awful. He has been smiling and waving and bowing and seemingly like, very proud of what he's done. I mean, it's just.

[D]

Yeah, it's sick.

[A]

It's sick. And so that is happening in 2026. But Lance Johansson has filed a lawsuit.

[D]

The dad.

[A]

The dad, Lauren's dad has filed a lawsuit.

[D]

I read the whole suit, and the suit is very biased. Right. It's a plaintiff. So in civil court, whoever's deciding to bring the suit is the plaintiff. So he is the plaintiff in this case, and he's suing the monitoring company. He is suing the person who installed the monitor on the ankle. He went down the list. I think there's like 15 defendants in this lawsuit. And the reason why I say it's a very biased suit is because this is the initial complaint. So this is. You file an initial complaint in civil court saying, this is everything that happened and it's written from your perspective. So the defense then responds to this and says, well, this is what happened on our side. And we have that as a big fat question mark. I can't imagine it's going to be a very robust defense. The evidence is pretty damning. The damages are very real. In every civil case, you need to have a duty, a breach, causation, and harm. So a duty to behave a certain way in society, a breach of that. So. So murdering someone, violating your bond, inappropriately installing an ankle monitor, that would be the breach causation. It has to be the direct cause of the damages, which in this case are the dollar amount he's suing for.

[A]

Right. Which is $150 million.

[D]

Good for him. Get it?

[C]

Yeah, good for him.

[D]

I mean, reading that lawsuit, reading the complaint, I'm like, okay, this guy was incredible at gathering evidence throughout this entire process. I'm very curious to see what happens. If I had to read the tea, leave my booth at the station with a crystal ball at the train station, would be that there's gonna be a nice settlement here and that this will not go to trial because the evidence is so damning.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I hope that is what happens and that they have to pay.

[D]

Yeah, it'll be really interesting. He's suing the bond company. Bond companies are underwritten by insurance companies, so I don't know if that's a co defendant. Yeah, well, I'm curious that he didn't sue the judge or the township. I'm curious about that.

[A]

Yeah, we didn't end up talking this aspect of Judge Cheryl Blackburn.

[D]

Yeah. So there have been some articles about Judge Blackburn, how she suffered a stroke in 2021. And there have been attorneys who have come out and claimed that she is mentally incompetent to be on the bench, which is in a small town like this. Doing that can be the end of your career as an attorney. So the fact that these lawyers, and I think a lot of them were defense lawyers, felt that her decisions were erratic and unpredictable. And I am not commenting on whether or not they were for legal purposes, but it was in, it was thrown heavily into question. And a group of attorneys from a small town came out against a judge and said that that can really fuck your career up big time.

[A]

Because if you're ever in front of.

[D]

That judge again, you're seeing how KGM being right now about answering questions about a judge in a state that I'm not even a part of because I'm like, we are very protective of that. And judges, you have to appear in front of them. I have relationships with certain judges I've appeared in front of for a decade where I know them in court, they know my personality in court. I have built that rapport where they know I'm not going to freak out or I'm not not going to object to every stupid little thing or that when I do freak out, they should really listen because I'm oftentimes like a very credibility collective. So the fact that these attorneys came.

[A]

Out and did this means that it really says something.

[D]

It really says something about the egregious nature of her behavior on the bench. Lowering that bond from 250 to 150 is a big fat question mark. I don't know what compelled her to do that or what the reasoning was. I'm not saying there wasn't any. I'm saying that it's not clear from the fact pattern.

[A]

Right? It is. It's very unclear. And in October actually of 2024, a six judge panel.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Sits to review what happened and see if rules were broken.

[D]

Did they have an outcome yet from that?

[A]

Because. Yeah. So I think what they determined. And I'll pull it up.

[D]

A six judge panel reviewing other judges like that. I have to do that when I submit immigration appeals to the Board of Immigration Appeals.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

It's like the other judges, it's their peers.

[A]

So for them reviewing the bond bonding company. Yeah, let me pull it up. A six judge panel Ruled on Monday that two bonding companies did not break local court rules after a man bonded out in Nashville and was later accused of killing his girlfriend in Mississippi. So they're reviewing these bonding companies and saying, did you violate court orders? And ultimately they determined that there were a lot of small errors that resulted in this catastrophic failure.

[D]

Yeah, of course. I wonder what other failures there have been. Is there a class action lawsuit here? Like, what is going on? Because, I mean, I mean, fool me once, right? I can't imagine this is the first time these bond companies have totally screwed up like this.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, how would we even ever know? It says that the criminal court clerk's office failed to send the full and complete bond condition order.

[D]

They're blaming the clerk's office.

[A]

So the clerk's office did not communicate with the bonding company and the Freedom Monitoring Service. However, he wasn't supposed to be released after 4pm so that's why he went to this other monitoring company in the first place. So it's all very like convoluted.

[D]

And, you know, everyone's playing hot potato at this point because there's a big fat lawsuit on someone's desk. We've got a judge who is being called into question. We've got six judges. Everyone, all eyes are on this town, on this company, on this judge. So everyone's playing, you did this, you did this, you did this. And we have very awful situation. We have. Someone was murdered. It wasn't like, oh, someone violated their parole and we didn't really notice. Okay, well, we're going to bring them back and we're going to put them, we're going to incarcerate them. It's like there is a very clear victim damage here. Like someone died for sure.

[A]

Actually, the CEO of the Tennessee Coalition to End Domestic and Sexual Violence called this case horrific and preventable. Which I think, like calling someone's murder preventable.

[D]

Oh, totally. Yeah.

[A]

That is like, that's big.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can really see it playing out here. Obviously, hindsight is 20 20, but, you know, it's devastating.

[D]

It's interesting. We don't have the victim's perspective. Right. We have this like, big vacuum where we don't have any information from her. What she was going through is all through the perspective of the dad. I just wonder, Right. Like, I want to hear her perspective. And it's so awful we won't get it.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know how he got her in the car with him, but the security camera at her home had been destroyed. And I imagine that was just harrowing for her to learn that he had been released. It's terrible. And I think I'll be following this lawsuit because, I mean, what's the hope here at this point when a life has been lost is that you can affect change, right?

[D]

Yeah. Or that we can learn from it, or that we can feel that there is some sort of justice being served. Right. I mean, we always try. And he's up for capital punishment now. Does that change what happened if that trial, if he does get the death sentence at the end of every case, some sort of. Of like, did this do anything for us? Did we find justice today? Like, was anyone held accountable? Like, I don't have answers. And I think people look to lawyers or they look to the court or they look to the people who are involved in criminal law for answers, to feel like there is some sort of resolution. But it is a process and often at the end we're left with more questions than answers. Oftentimes at the end we're left with an even more unreconciled feeling. Right. It's never black and white what happens in court.

[A]

Yeah. And the people that have these jobs that are, I mean, hugely important to the safety of victims, like someone who is in charge of installing an ankle monitor, you know, that can be a one man show sometimes. Like, how are we monitoring those people? I mean, we, we all want checks and balances, I think, in our career. Because people do make mistakes.

[D]

Of course. Yeah. And I think it's so important to remember that everyone in every situation in the justice process is a person who is capable of error. And it's like, what do we fucking do with that? How do we a wrap our heads around that? Can we fix that? Is there a way to make it better? Like, it is one of these things where it's like, if I screw up sometimes in court, it can be life and death for a client. I have clients who are up for deportation where if they do get deported, they will die, period. There's no question about it. And it's like, if I miss that filing deadline and that happens, it's like, I will feel awful. Right. That is my life. I've ruined someone's life. But it's also like, like, can I give myself grace as someone who works in these extreme. I have chosen a career where I am at the nexus of life and death for other people. If I do screw up and there is a life or death ramification, at what point do I say, okay, Michael, you are a person, you are capable of error. At what point do I say, okay, this is the system that has failed. There are so many other people involved in this. My one little mistake. I'm thinking about these people and trying to have compassion for that person who's working three jobs installing an ankle monitor. It's very easy for me to sit here and be like, fuck that person. That sucks. But it's like, no, I have worked three jobs. Maybe they weren't as critical as installing ankle monitors, but I've worked three jobs and forgotten to wait that table or forgotten to punch that time card. Human error happens on any job.

[A]

It happens, and you have to. I think if you're going to be in a position of. Of keeping people safe, which is installing an. Being aware of release conditions. I don't know. I mean, this is me speaking more generally. Not about this person in particular, this case in particular. But if that is my job, I don't care what this person tells me or how trustworthy they seem. I want the release conditions first.

[D]

That was like an egregious error. Oh, my God.

[A]

I'm not taking someone's word for it because that is a very, very important.

[D]

So the person you're talking to is so biased.

[A]

They're so incentivized to lie to you.

[D]

Tell me what the terms are for this ankle monitor. None. That would be what I would say. I'm really curious to see what happens in the civil lawsuit, because I think we can, based off this evidence here, just like reading as a criminal defense lawyer reading the evidence against him at the criminal trial, I think there is very much a plea deal, or maybe they won't even offer a plea deal. They'll go right to trial and he will get sentenced to death. But. But I'm curious to see what happens in Lance's civil suit and how that.

[A]

Hopefully motivates them to. I don't know what the right word is to get a more cohesive system together so that it doesn't happen again.

[D]

I also hope that this isn't like a quick settlement where we don't hear anything like, I think Lance has been such a strong victim advocate. My hope is that oftentimes, clients, it won't be about the money and that it'll be about dragging them out into the public. It'll be about dragging this case into to the light, making them respond to his complaint. Right. Because in civil court, when you submit a complaint, then the defense has to respond in writing their side of the story. So I would love it if he held out negotiations because I'm sure they're all at the table right now trying to negotiate to get this lawsuit settled. And with an NDA button it all up. I would love it if he dragged it out to make them respond, to make sure that they have to get on the record with some of this so that there can be some change, so that there can be some reform, so that the public outcry isn't just fizzles out.

[A]

Yeah. And I haven't seen anything about the lawsuit since it was filed over the summer. How long do you think these things typically take?

[D]

Oh, it can take years. It can take years. Yeah. I'll come back when we have a response and we'll do a full civil breakdown because I think that there are. It'll be really interesting. I'm curious to watch.

[A]

Are the two things just so separate? Where assuming Bryson Rivers is consistent, convicted of murder, does that ever influence.

[D]

Oh, yeah, that will be evidence that would be a part of that civil case.

[A]

So it's possible that they should.

[D]

They might wait to see what happens. And sometimes those lawyers work together.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

So they'll partner together. And the prosecutor's office will be letting Lance know. Right. Because Lance is probably a witness in the criminal trial. He's also filing the suit. The prosecution, prosecutors will probably be working with the civil attorneys. It's mutually beneficial for them to be communicating.

[A]

Okay, I see.

[D]

The attorneys in civil court will be probably communicating with the prosecutors.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, we'll have to be looking out for an update then. And Michael, thank you so much for being here today and going through this. Yeah. I mean, going through this incredibly difficult case. And obviously, obviously, it's a huge tragedy and a colossal loss for Lauren's family and everyone who loved her. And I think, you know, all we can hope now is that the civil lawsuit brings some change and prevents this from happening again.

[D]

Yeah. We try and find some sort of justice in this tragedy. Right. It's so hard to find some sort of resolution that feels satisfying for everyone involved. Because you can't bring her back.

[C]

Right. I was really just a listener this time around on this podcast and I have to say I loved listening to it. I thought you guys did such a good job and Michael was so additive to this case. He has great energy and I loved how he weighed in as you went through the case and talked about all of the details. I loved his insights about the legal process and all of the things that he brought. Like whenever you mentioned Lauren calling her parents, which ended up being a possibly life saving call at that Time, Obviously, it goes on to become, like, very tragic. But in that moment, that call Michael flagged, this is probably gonna be really key evidence at trial. You know, just flagging potential evidence as you went along. I mean, obviously, the trial hasn't happened yet, so we shall see what happens. But I thought his insight was really invaluable there.

[A]

Yeah, he also, I think, really connected. Connected the dots for me, and maybe for some of our listeners, like me, who were less familiar with the ins and outs of what a bonding agency really does and how this functions in our justice system and where it all fell apart here, I mean, that was super helpful. You know, this story is, like. It's truly heartbreaking because it does feel preventable, and we owe victims of domestic violence protection from their abusers. And it didn't happen here. And so that was a failure.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Um, and, you know, Michael also spoke about how this bond system just isn't perfect. There's a lot of inequity because certain people can afford bond and certain people can't. And just because you've been arrested doesn't mean you're guilty. You know, a lot of evidence, in my opinion, is pointing to Bryson Rivers in this case. I feel confident he'll be convicted. But for the zillions of other people imprisoned for things that maybe they didn't do, you know, a bond can prevent you from being released.

[C]

Yeah. It's so tricky. Right. Because we don't want dangerous people roaming the streets if they've done something violent. You know, there's this idea of, like, it's better for them to be behind bars. Like, with Bryson river in this story, you can see how his release led to Lauren's death. At the same time, you're right. It's like you're innocent until proven guilty. And so holding someone without bond, that's, like, determined by a judge a lot of the time. And it can be a really unfair system because some people are given the opportunity for a bond, but they can't afford it, so then they're just sitting in prison. So, you know, I've heard some people say we should abolish the bond system and just not have any bond. But then it's like, well, then what do you do? Do you just not hold people, or do you hold everybody? And then you're gonna get into the situation where people are just sitting in prison for potentially years, and then maybe they're, you know, proven not guilty.

[A]

Yeah. And, I mean, I have to imagine that if you work at a bonding agency and someone has a high bond. I have to imagine that that means their charges call for that because they're dangerous. Like in the case of Bryson Rivers, he'd been arrested on really serious offenses before his release, and. And that high bond, in my mind at least, should have triggered people to really cross their T's and dot their I's and make sure that he was abiding by those release conditions, which didn't happen here.

[C]

Well, it makes you think, like, setting a really high bond. The idea being this person probably won't be able to pay this bond, so they'll stay in jail for the time being. Why. Why don't you just not give them the option? You know, it's like, are they this violent? Are they $2 million worth of violent? Where if they pay us $2 million, it's okay, we're willing to risk it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, the whole system actually is pretty absurd when you really break it down.

[A]

Totally. I mean, he should have, in my opinion, never been released. And I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with that. It's like, I heard about this case right when the story came out, and I just kept thinking, surely I'm missing something. Like, this is these people's whole job.

[C]

But another thing Michael said, which I've heard before, is, like, you know, a lot of places, the legal system, it's really being held together by, like, paper clips. And, you know, it's at the heart is just people. And depending on how much funding there is, depending on a lot of different factors, there's errors that are made. Made.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't have all the answers here, but it just seems like there should be this, and maybe there is in that field here, too. But it was like, this is so serious. This is life and death. And it shouldn't come back to, like, one person didn't send the release conditions to one other person. It should be like multiple check and balances at every step of the way. I mean, just the fact that his Release happened after 4pm like, that in and of itself should have stopped all of this, but there were many other things and people in play that could have stopped it and didn't. And so, not that they're criminally negligent for that, but it is. It's just incredibly sad. And so Bryson Rivers stands trial in 2026 right now. And, you know, I'm sure Michael and I will keep in touch about it.

[C]

You know, I have to say, too, Life360, the app came up again in this. We have another episod that this came up in and I was like, these episodes are basically an ad for Life 360, an app. I was really unfamiliar with that app. I don't know if I've been living under a rock. I mean, I'm familiar with location sharing, but this is the second time it's come up.

[A]

I had heard of life360 before in parent groups, and I totally see how it would appeal to someone to have their kids location 24 7.

[C]

So it's basically just a location shift sharing app, as far as we know.

[A]

That's my understanding of it, and it sounds like it was instrumental in saving Lauren's life in the initial attack.

[C]

Yeah. Whether it's Life360 or another app, it's interesting that these location sharing apps have really started to come up in episodes that we've been covering. Yeah, it can be really like life saving.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

Well, Michael is such a force. We were so happy to have him on the show. And as you said, we'll definitely continue to follow up with him about this case and maybe have an update for you all in the new year. You can check out Brief Recess, hosted by Michael Foot and Melissa Malbranch wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram Henife Podcast or blueskyknifepodcast.

[C]

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by by me, Hannah.

[A]

Smith and me, Pasha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.

[C]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[A]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[C]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[A]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[C]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[D]

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