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- [00:02]
Pasha Eaton
This is exactly right.
- [00:07]
Alec Kouros
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Pasha Eaton
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Alec Kouros
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- [01:07]
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Alec Kouros
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- [01:37]
Pasha Eaton
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
- [01:43]
Alec Kouros
I got weekly complaints and then it became to daily complaints and at some point it was like I'd get several per day. So over the time it was like literally thousands that I basically had to sort out with and it became a huge burden on my time, on my mental health.
- [02:15]
Hannah Smith
Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.
- [02:17]
Pasha Eaton
I'm Pasha Eaton. This week we speak with Alec Kouros. Alec has been the victim of online scammers for almost 20 years and we talked to him about how that happened and continues to happen and all of the different ways that this has affected his life.
- [02:31]
Hannah Smith
Alec is a professor at the University of Regina in Saskatchewan, Canada. We actually mentioned him in a previous off record episode 122 and then he reached out to us. Turns out one of his students is a listener of the Knife and we are really excited to talk with Alec today.
- [02:47]
Pasha Eaton
As a quick note, Alec had just finished speaking at a conference when we interviewed him and so his voice is just a little bit scratchy.
- [02:53]
Hannah Smith
Let's get into the interview. Alec, thank you so much for joining us on the Knife.
- [03:02]
Alec Kouros
Thanks for having me.
- [03:03]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, we're so excited to speak with You. I mean, when Hannah told me that you had emailed her after our off record episode featuring your story came out, I was like, wow, that's incredible.
- [03:14]
Alec Kouros
It was cool. I actually had a student who is a big fan of your podcast and she was excited. She sent me a message and she's saying like, this is. This is really cool. I love this podcast and your story was featured. And so she was very happy. And so I listened to it and I thought it was awesome. So it's a delight to be here. So she actually thought I could reach out and be able to tell you a bit more about my story.
- [03:40]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, we're so excited about that. As you mentioned, we did touch on your story a little bit in a previous off record. It started because I happened upon a Reddit post that you made from 2015 that is titled, for the past eight years, my photos have been used by romance scammers, aka catfishers. I really need Reddit's help to have this get the attention of Facebook. So we talked about what we're able to find online and through interviews, but now here you are able to tell us more about your experience and we're going to dig into that identity fraud situation that happened to you personally. But as well, we're going to talk more broadly about identity fraud on the Internet and how AI has really come to change that and progress that. But first, let's go back to the beginning. Can you tell us, how did this all start for you personally? What was going on in your life that first time that you were scammed? You know, how did you first become aware that this was happening?
- [04:44]
Alec Kouros
Sure, I'm happy to go back. You know, if we kind of think collectively going back to around 2007, like, Facebook was pretty new. Like 2006. Ish. YouTube, I think was 2005. The social web was very, very new. I was presenting a lot. I was spending. You know, I was a big professor, probably eight or nine years at that point. So fairly still relatively early in my career. I was in Barcelona for a conference. I was married at that point. I was three or four years into being married. Back then. I didn't really care about who posted on my Facebook. So it was. The settings were quite open and people posted things and strangers could read your post, hosts and so on, and people could interact and you just weren't thinking about that sort of thing. And so a lot of my photos and, and my profile was certainly open to the world. Very different today. And this was like, it's Barcelona, but I live in Canada. So, you know, it was early then, but late at night here in Canada. And I got these frantic messages from my wife at the time who was quite upset about these. It was from someone named. I think it was Lori. I won't share the last name, but it was someone who shared a number of posts who. They were really mad at me because I apparently was in a relationship with this person, or this person thought I was in a relationship with them. Like, I didn't really know what was going on at that time, but they were mad because this person had found out, apparently, that I was married, that I had a child, um, that. That my wife at the time was pregnant with the second. And so I received this very frantic email because I hadn't read these posts yet. But I just heard from, again, my partner that, you know, she was quite upset at me and, like, what's going on? And then even my brother called and he's like, what's going on here? And, you know, just kind of in disbelief, like, what's been going on? And it was really confusing at that point. And I looked at the. At the post, I had no idea who this person was or why they were thinking this. And at the time, I really just dismissed it as some sort of prank. Like, I didn't think that this person really, truly believed that they were in a relationship with me. I thought they were just someone playing a joke on me or something.
- [07:08]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. And so the posts, or they're coming through as posts on your page or messages, is that.
- [07:14]
Alec Kouros
Yeah, like, they were posts on my public page so that my partner and my brother could see this. Everyone could see this. So, you know, it's my reputation. Like, yeah, I'm basically, there's a scandal on my Facebook page that, you know, is, you know, goes against my reputation and so on.
- [07:30]
Pasha Eaton
And do you recall, like, not verbatim, but do you recall what they said?
- [07:35]
Alec Kouros
Oh, it was very similar to what I said before. It was just like, how, you know, how dare you? We've been together for. I forget the number of months, you know, you've been together, and you lied to me. And how could you have had this wife and pregnant wife, you know, at that time as well? Like, how could you have done that sort of thing? And so it was really this sort of sense of betrayal. But again, I thought this was like a prank. And I never actually spoke to this person beyond this. Like, I. I basically said a couple of things. Stop posting my wall and. And block them. And then I thought it wasn't like, a Big deal. Like, it, it was just. It must have been a prank, I.
- [08:12]
Hannah Smith
Think, finding yourself in that situation where suddenly someone's posting on your public Facebook wall that you have been cheating on your wife, essentially.
- [08:21]
Alec Kouros
Right.
- [08:22]
Hannah Smith
And then your wife at the time calls you. What was that conversation like? Was she.
- [08:27]
Alec Kouros
Oh, it wasn't good.
- [08:27]
Hannah Smith
Worried? Yeah. Like, what was she like? Hey, what are you doing?
- [08:31]
Alec Kouros
Well, yeah, she was certainly worried. And the bad thing about it is this person was from. I mean, there's lots of bad things about it, but. But one of the, One of the bad things about it was it was a person in North Carolina. I had been there once in my life and I just happened to have been in North Carolina for like about 10 hours, probably a few months before that for a speech I gave. So it just. I just happened to have been in North Carolina. And so it was like, this is really strange, but this person thought we were in a long term relationship. And so, yeah, it wasn't a very pleasant conversation because, you know, this is the first that this ever happened. And, you know, I'm away at a conference, so I can't be there to, like, talk about it. So we're on the phone, we're at different time zones. So it was very uncomfortable and really left. It wasn't comfortable. And. And you know, after we kind of looked at the facts and so on, like, it was pretty easy to see that this was. This was not something I had done. And I do believe, I think from what I remember, and Again, this is 2007, so I don't remember everything, but I do believe that this person ended up also messaging my wife at the time as well and trying to, like, work this up, which made sense. Like, this is what you'd probably do if you were actually in this situation, like, you know, to compare notes and that sort of thing. And the notes didn't match up. From what I understand or what I remember. I wasn't privy to those particular conversations. But, you know, it was just sort of a subtle thing. We just, you know, a day. Day or two beyond that. It wasn't. It wasn't a thing. I think it was just sort of like the strange thing. It was more like, who's this person pranking and why. Why are they doing this on my wall?
- [10:07]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, because it seemed so unbelievable, right?
- [10:10]
Alec Kouros
Yeah. And so it was more likely that it was someone who didn't like me for whatever reason. And, you know, who knows, was like.
- [10:19]
Hannah Smith
Doing this mean thing to publicly shame you and try to, you know.
- [10:23]
Alec Kouros
Right.
- [10:24]
Hannah Smith
Cause trouble in your life? But yeah. Did you have any questions for her? Does your wife have any questions for as far as like, when was the last time you saw him in person?
- [10:34]
Alec Kouros
So this person did. I do remember that this person did say that they never saw me face to face. And so even had I been in North Carolina, like they wouldn't have seen me anyways. But at that time it just wasn't plausible enough to ask more questions, which sellers. So there was. So it just kind of left very. Like in subsequent matters when this happened, there were way more questions because it started happening, happening. There were more patterns here, more questions to ask because it became, you know, this is not just happening once, it's happening a bunch of times, but in.
- [11:09]
Pasha Eaton
This first time that it happens is your primary sort of takeaway. This is a prank, this is a one off and not that something, someone's been duped.
- [11:19]
Alec Kouros
Absolutely. There was, there was no suspicion until years later, like that this was actually something that was starting. Like this was just the beginning of something. And this may have not have been the first one. You know, who knows how many times it happened before that. But the person never contacted me. So this could have happened. Been happening for years before that. But for some reason, the scammer in this case not only used my photos, but they also used my name.
- [11:44]
Commercial Announcer 2
Hmm.
- [11:45]
Alec Kouros
That wasn't very typical at the time.
- [11:48]
Hannah Smith
Gotcha. So that's how she was able to track you down, because the scammer used your real name.
- [11:53]
Alec Kouros
Right.
- [11:53]
Hannah Smith
Can you talk us through when you start to realize that this is not an isolated incident? Like when does that occur?
- [12:00]
Alec Kouros
I think it was like, it wasn't until like this just sort of stopped happening and like it was, it was the one time and then I got infrequent messages once in a while, but it wasn't until two or three years that it really started to accelerate. And so I, I got weekly complaints and then it became to daily complaints and, and at some point it was like I'd get several per day. And so over the time it was like literally thousands that I basically had to, had to, had to, had to sort out with. And it became a huge burden on my time, on my mental health because I, I, I'm doing multiple things there. First of all, you know, I think it was all sorted with my family. Like we understood this, but in many cases their photos were being used. Right. So in some cases it's not just my identity, it's because some of the photos they had were me of me with my children and with My partner and with my parents, for instance.
- [12:59]
Hannah Smith
What you're saying is, is people, I'm guessing mostly women reaching out to you, saying very similar perhaps to that first person who, you know, put it on your Facebook wall is that, hey, I think we're in a relationship, or they're reaching out, assuming that they've been in some kind of online relationship with you, and that this is supported by these Facebook pages that are not yours, but that when they're sent to you, you recognize that this is you. This is not just you, but there's another Facebook page that might be like your brother or parents. Is that correct?
- [13:39]
Alec Kouros
Yeah. So there's very different complexities of this. So the people that reached out to me were either people were who were very mad at me that they think they found the real me, that I was the one behind these profiles, and so that I set up fake profiles with my face for whatever reason, or sometimes with my own name. Like, sometimes they'd use my name. You know, it really depended on how they use this. So people would be very, very mad at me because they think that they found me and they found my real contact information and they found out who I really was, or they have discovered at some point that my photos were being used. And this was largely due to the number of sort of scammer reveal sites that came up on the web. Like, a lot of people who got scammed in this way would create sites that, like, scam Watch and, you know, similar varieties to that which would list scammers. And so a lot of victims would come together and see sites like that. So they would see my name and my face listed on these sites to, you know, for people to avoid and. Or photos to avoid. They'd often say, this person, if you've seen these photos, These belong to Dr. Alec Koros and he's a professor. And like, they'd give the backstory of who I am. So some people would see these stories and then they. They'd contact me. Not mad at me. They'd sort of share their story, um, with me. Sometimes it would be, you know, really sad. Like they'd sent a lot of money. They might have left their relationship that they might have been in, like, these, you know, in one case, someone said that they mortgaged their house or they, you know, they liquidated their assets because they'd often give all their money to the scammer version of me. And so they were really, really in deep and with these particular relationships. And, yeah, so it was either mad or sad. And here I'm going to share this story with you so that you can share with others and for you to know or be aware. And in some cases there's a few, and I wouldn't say they're rare, but probably 5 or 10%, if not more of those cases. They're not only sharing this for me, but they also had a glimmer of hope, like maybe I would be single and available and perhaps interested in them still. And so even though they fell in love with the wrong Persona, like not my personality, not my words, but just the images themselves, somehow they pieced together someone and they felt that it was still possible or feasible to be with me because again, they fell in love with someone who's not me, who's not my voice in those cases. But my picture is in something that they sort of pieced together from these scammer calls and so on. And that was kind of the second, like there's still some hope, right? Like they were, they felt they were heartbroken and really drawn in and they didn't know what to do at that point. Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on spinquest and there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash Prizes. That's at spinquest.coms P I N Q U S T.com SpinQuest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.
- [16:52]
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- [18:21]
Hannah Smith
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- [18:59]
Pasha Eaton
And as you're becoming more, and I mean it sounds like you're getting, you know, dozens and then hundreds and thousands of people writing to you over time, what measures do you take earlier on in this whole ordeal to make your public Persona online more private?
- [19:18]
Alec Kouros
So that was the difficult part, right? So there was a choice there. Because you know everyone, you know people, it's easy for people to say like you should just lock up all your pictures. And I did, I locked up a lot of pictures. But there, there was a point that if you lock up more pictures then the people who are looking for you, who need to find you, that are in these scams, because the pictures are already out, like they're gone, they're, they're already in these databases, they're shared by scammers. I mean this is. Well, we often think like we. If you watch the documentary, like the catfishing documentaries and that sort of thing, like where the term comes from and so on, they often project these people as, you know, people in the U.S. for instance, who are doing this as some. And they might know the person or so on. But the reality is most of these scams are perpetrated by people outside of the us, outside of the Canadian or US jurisdiction. And these are criminal activities. I mean this is, these are dark terrorist type activities that provide a lot of profit for these groups that gets organized crime. And so there are people who share photos of scammers that they've collected. They've sort of gathered these, and they share databases. So the photos are out there already. So part of me is like, if I make everything private, they'll never find who I actually am. So the people who need to find me, who are being scammed, can't find me.
- [20:36]
Pasha Eaton
And.
- [20:36]
Alec Kouros
And on the other hand, and then I won't know. Like, it might even get worse for me in some ways. And then if I open it up, of course, then I'm, you know, more of my photos will. Will be gone. So probably the biggest choice on that front that I made was just, you know, not including children, not, you know, being careful. What. In terms of what I share. Before then, I didn't really think that using photos of my children would be as big of a deal as it was. And even thinking, like, I have a photo that was used in one of these scams. It was like, when my dad passed away in 2013, my mother's, like, on his grave, basically crying. Right. It's this incredibly powerful photo. And I think, like, I'm sharing this because I think it's important for me to share with the people that I trust and that I love. But that seemed like that endearing, that love, that photograph is powerful for someone else to see and to use it in a way that you would betray someone's trust to lie to them. And so the power of photos. I was very cautious in terms of what I shared beyond that point. Wow.
- [21:44]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Because at that point, it's like, your stuff is already out there.
- [21:48]
Alec Kouros
Yeah.
- [21:49]
Hannah Smith
So I can imagine that you would rather know if your photos of you, your family, these very personal photos, are being used to cause harm and scam people and take their money and abuse them emotionally. I mean, what does that feel like, to know that, like, your personal photos, things that you, I think we all think of as ours, like, this is my family, this is my life, and these are my photos are being used in that way. Like, what does that feel like?
- [22:19]
Alec Kouros
Well, it's gross. It's like. I don't know how other words describe it, but, you know, it's gross. Thinking of, you know, my children's photos and images being used in these scams. Like, it wasn't just the photos, but at some point. All right, so the sophisticated scam would be. So, again, it's not just email communication. This is. They were using Skype back then. It wasn't often video. The scammers typically would say when. When they tried to turn on video, and. And back then, the video was harder. Like it was more of an excuse that was plausible, like, your Skype's not working, my camera's not working. Whatever else makes more sense back then. Today, it's less. You know, you'd be. Have more of an expectation for those things to work or to really prove who that is. And of course, there's complications with that as well. But again, this is. This is organized crime. So it's not a single perpetrator behind this. So there would be sophisticated photos. Take a Facebook profile. So there'd be a fake me with whatever name I think I remember one was Alex Gallart. And then they'd take my mother's pictures, and then they would connect that to Alex Gallard's Facebook profile, and they'd take my daughter's photos and create another profile, so on. So there would be this. It looks more plausible that this is a real person. And then they connect a bunch of fake profiles so it looks like this person is a real person with a real daughter and so on. Then they have someone talk to the victims, not only from the person that's purported to be me, but from my mother. So they'd have a mother scammer, you know, or someone with a female voice talking to them like, it's my mother. And they'd have people talking to them like, it's my daughter. And so this really, really puts the nails in the coffin in terms of, like, someone's belief or disbelief around this once you start talking to the entire family. So it's gross on that level. Like, it's not only incredibly powerful for these scammers to do that, because it really did the job to make it like, I'm not only talking to you. I'm developing a relationship with your mother. Your daughter is saying that she wants to see me and so on. But to think that my kids, my family's identities were perpetrated and, you know, and sort of brought into this, like, that made me carry a lot of guilt around this. And it's just like, this is the thing. Like, it's fine you're using mine. It's bad enough that you're taking these people for all their money, but those aren't the only victims. It's also my family. Right? Like, I didn't see that myself as a victim. Like, I see the people that are sending money and so on. As a victim, I'm not sure I'm. I'm more of a medium I guess, in some ways than a victim. But because of the choices I made in terms of what I put online, it did affect my family and my family dynamics and, you know, and my children's future. I mean, their digital identities are compromised because of things like that as well. So something we have to think about is, you know, of parents or guardians of children in terms of the choices we make and what we share.
- [25:14]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. I mean, to be fair to you, though, in 2007, everyone was putting everything on Facebook. We didn't know.
- [25:22]
Alec Kouros
Right. Yeah.
- [25:24]
Hannah Smith
I was in college at that time, and I remember we would. I would just be hanging out with my friends. We would just take random pictures of us hanging out. I'd be like, upload 50 pictures to Facebook.
- [25:33]
Pasha Eaton
Oh, full albums of a single outing.
- [25:36]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, yeah. For whatever reason, you know, you were also doing that, like many people, but your photos were seized upon. And I'm sure this has happened to other people as well, but, I mean, what a nightmare that is. So I assume you, you know, you did do things to try to stop this.
- [25:53]
Alec Kouros
Yes.
- [25:54]
Hannah Smith
Can you walk us through what you did to try to stop the scammers?
- [25:59]
Alec Kouros
Most of it started on Facebook, and so there's a lot of profiles, like, you put in my name, and you'd see a bunch of them. But of course, all of these people also gave me the fake profiles because it was really hard to find. Like, if I'm looking for my face, it was hard to do that for quite a while until Google brought in a tool called Reverse image Search, where you could basically put in a photo of yourself, and then it would basically reverse search those images. So you could find. But you couldn't find, really, Facebook profiles at the time. But you could find, you know, other websites, and we can talk more about those as well. But I report the sites to Facebook and say, this is not me. Sometimes they would take down the ones that were my name and my photos. So if there was a profile that was like a fake profile that would violate their terms of service, and so they would take it down if they were my photographs but not my name. So it was this Alex Gellert out there with my names. It didn't fit within their terms of service to actually take that down because this person is not impersonating me. Even though they're using my photos, they're not impersonating me using their name. I'm my name. And so this sort of fell in this weird loophole. So I had all of these profiles that I couldn't take down that were clearly photos that I've used before that. And if you put the dates on them, you could trace them back to me as being the first one to put them on. If you look at Facebook's own dating mechanisms, but they still wouldn't take these things down. So I was fairly connected in the social tech world and most of the websites at the time, social websites I could contact, but Facebook I couldn't. There was no way to get through that wall. And still today, I think it's really difficult. But every once in a while, I'd go and I'd speak at tech conferences and so on, and I'd find someone there who worked for Facebook and I'd talk to them and tell them what's going on, and they'd have a Facebook email address and so on. And I tell them, and they'd be very like, oh, this can't be happening. We've got to do something about this. And they say, email me and we'll fix this. This happened three or four times, and we might have a couple of communications at the most. And then it just went like, silence. Like they ghosted me after that. Like, nothing ever came of that thing. And I feel. And I'm not gonna, you know, libel myself or liable anyone else, but I always have the suspicion, like, this is happening way more than it should be. And I can't see that there wouldn't be a way to stop this. Like, even back then, AI would have been able to duplicate or detect. Where are these profiles being built from? Are they being mass produced? Are they taking images from elsewhere? I know that there was technology there to deal with it, but when you're a publicly traded company and you have my profile and 1000 duplicates of it, that's going to do good for your shareholders. That's going to look kind of nice that you are having a lot of growth, even though a huge number of those profiles are fake. There's lots of reasons why Facebook, in my opinion, would not want to necessarily bring light to this issue and at the same time admit that all of these profiles or a lot of the growth that they're seeing are from fake profiles that they're building on a daily basis.
- [29:13]
Pasha Eaton
And so since you didn't get a lot of help from Facebook, or at least in the way that you had hoped for whatever reasons, you end up creating a website that you would send to people who reached out to you. How did you decide what to put.
- [29:28]
Alec Kouros
On the website by that point? When I put out a story, people would see this And I'd get interviewed by either our Canadian CBC or a few American outlets, there's Australian outlets and so on. And so a lot of this got into the news. Most of that was either my reflection. So I created blog posts about my experiences. There were other people who wrote things about it at the same time, but most of it was probably media articles from reputable news sources about this. And so that was kind of the main thing just to provide. You know, first of all, I think on the website, and it wasn't much of a website, it was just simply like if you're reading this, there's a good chance that you may have been fallen victim to someone and explained who I was. And then I wanted to give them credible evidence in terms of like, these are reputable news sources that you can read and, and try to figure it out yourself. If you need to contact me, contact me. So it was just sort of like before you contact me angry or if you, or upset or whatever it might be, read these things over and hopefully this can support you because, you know, otherwise I was just trying to explain this over and over again to someone and in many cases again, if they were mad or if they didn't believe me. Spending way too much time on a daily basis trying to convince someone that I wasn't the person scamming them. For me, it was a time saver. At the same time, I think it was good for others to be able to read and sort these things out for themselves to get some answers.
- [30:53]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. And I'm curious, did anyone reach out to you, like via call, text message, try to see you in person?
- [31:00]
Alec Kouros
Oh yeah, for sure. Sometimes threats like I think I saw, I was just reading one, I was trying to go through a bunch of them. You know, someone who is in total disbelief and I live in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada and someone said something at the end of their message like, I know this is you. I'll see you soon in Regina.
- [31:18]
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- [32:48]
Hannah Smith
You know the one? Yep, we've got you.
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- [33:19]
Pasha Eaton
Ah come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [33:24]
Alec Kouros
Still using yesterday's tech upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 carbon ultralight. Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance. Performance, it keeps up with your business, not the other way around. Whoa, this thing moves. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device. And this was the one of the few male ones that were related to this because it didn't have to do with a romance scam. But it was someone who believed I got into some sort of trade partnership with them. It was someone from Russia. So I'm constantly google translating this from Russia and this, this person, I think their name was also Alex and they were sending me like legal documents and so on in terms of what I had done to them. And then they would actually send emails to my, like my boss, the president and provost of my university. And so there's me, like, you know, and then at some point I was in a tenured, then a non tenured, like a non tenured position, then tenured position, but early in my career. And so then, you know, I'm having to explain to my president and provost ultimately or to my dean, like, what's this all about? Right. And then have to go through that. And that, that continued up until, like, up until two years ago we had a new president, you know, so I'm having to talk to the new president about this as well. It's embarrassing and also, you know, potentially damaging if this person's saying that one of your professors is this sort of evil, you know, money launderer or whatever it might be. It gets old really quickly.
- [35:18]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, I can imagine. And you know, the first time you became aware of this, this was in like 2007. So this is years and years of you dealing with this, your time, energy, also it affecting your life, your relationships, your work. The last time you spoke about it that I could find at least like in an article was 2020, around then. And you said at that time that it was still impacting your daily life. How do things stand now? Is this still happening regularly?
- [35:49]
Alec Kouros
Surprisingly, not as much. I don't think it stopped. I think AI has done big change to what, what's happening here. I, I don't think anyone scamming these days needs my photos anymore. They don't need anyone's photos anymore. The fact that we're able to generate photos that are incredibly realistic, that are of the same person, that you have a continuous or a, you know, a profile that looks the same in multiple photos, that you can create video, that you can create deep fake calls. All of the technology has shifted in the last few years, and not just since ChatGPT. Previous to that, even previous years before that, they were using virtual cam. So right now I know that we're looking on a virtual cam right now, looking at each other. But truth be told, you don't for 100% know this is me like you, you may not know this is me. Like I can use technology today that would be incredibly convincing that this is, I'm using someone else's face as a face. You see this in bank fraud, you see this in romance scams. It's incredibly convincing and really difficult to tell the difference anymore. Like there was a time where I would get emails from Fake victims. Someone would say, I'm being victimized by this and what I need from you is a picture of you holding a newspaper. And I was like, why would you need that for me? Wow. And so I think this is a victim, like, wanting me to do this for someone they're trying to convince. Right. And I'm like, no, it was a.
- [37:30]
Pasha Eaton
Scammer trying to get. Trying to make you think that they were a victim so that they could get a picture to convince another victim.
- [37:38]
Alec Kouros
Exactly. Right.
- [37:39]
Pasha Eaton
Oh, my gosh.
- [37:40]
Alec Kouros
Yeah. So stuff like that, so tricky because some of the Photoshops that I saw were terrible. The videos I saw were terrible that they were so, like not convincing at that point when you're truly in love. Like, basically I saw communications from some, you know, of these victims who for the longest time, they talk, text, but then they'd start demanding video. Like, phone was easy, but we. I've never seen you on video. You always say your webcam's broken and so on. And then. So what they'd often do is they'd use. They'd take a video of me. Like, I've got tons of videos of me lecturing because I taught online courses for a long time. And a lot of those are open. You just need a few seconds without audio of me looking like I'm attempting to come onto a webcam and then going off. Like, a few seconds might be enough to convince a person that, yeah, I really saw you, because they're. But at the same time, you're using a virtual cam. So rather than me using a live cam, I'm just using a virtual cam. There's like tools like minicam or obs or whatever else that you can use. So you're playing video over the webcam versus actually live, a live stream. And so that was used for quite some time.
- [38:46]
Hannah Smith
They would have a video that looked like you were trying to connect and then it would drop out.
- [38:50]
Alec Kouros
Yeah, exactly.
- [38:52]
Hannah Smith
But that was enough to be like, well, see, look, me, I'm here, I'm a person. I'm trying to connect. Yeah, gosh.
- [38:59]
Alec Kouros
Yeah. And so you'd see that for a couple seconds, you don't say a word. But again, for the people who really want to believe, they want to believe, they want to know this is true. And so that's enough to convince them. And, you know, if you're not going to be hyper critical when you're vulnerable.
- [39:13]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, definitely. Did you ever find out who was behind this? Was it one person? Was it multiple people behind using your photo specifically to Scam, Thousands of people?
- [39:25]
Alec Kouros
No. So every once in a while, I'd be able to talk to a scammer of some sort of. And again, this wasn't just one scammer. Like these were. I can't tell you for sure. It could be dozens, it could be hundreds. But when I did get a chance to talk to a scammer, I'd guilt them. They'd be from certain countries. I'm not going to get into the countries they're from just because I don't want to racialize these types of scams and so on. But they would be part of a criminal organization. They'd often say that they were the foot soldiers. Like, there are people who were in conditions that they're basically forced to do this as part of, you know, this organization that they're within. And I'm not going to. I'm not going to totally let them off the hook in that sense, but there is some coercion that we don't perhaps anticipate or understand in, you know, in this world. Like, even in some cases, from what I understand is some of the people that were victimized, so women in the U.S. for instance, or in Brazil that I ran into, like online, when they communicate with me, they became so vulnerable because whether they were coerced or, you know, falling in love with the people that were actually behind them, some, in some cases they'd said, I'm not Alec Kuros. I'm this person. And then they'd fall in love with this person. They'd, you know, they'd actually be vulnerable over these other people, that they'd be okay with the fact that it wasn't me in the first place, but maybe they'd lose their house, lose all their money, all their financial bearings, and these people would be enlisted to do some of the scams themselves. So they became the mothers and the daughters and, you know, so they became part of the project as well, because they're financially and emotionally vulnerable, and so they become part of it. So it's not only just foot soldiers.
- [41:05]
Pasha Eaton
So they would have lost all of this money to having been scammed and then realized it. And then the scammer would say, we can help you get this money back. Here's what you have to do.
- [41:17]
Alec Kouros
Absolutely. So you become part of it. So you're most vulnerable because you are connected to this person. And even though they're not the person that they said that they were, you still have an emotional tie because the words were theirs. Whatever they. They say that they're still, that person, who they are, they sometimes say that they would, the scammers would say, like, actually, I was trying to scam you, but over this course of time I actually fell in love with you.
- [41:41]
Pasha Eaton
Oh my gosh.
- [41:42]
Alec Kouros
They twist the narrative a little bit. Whether it's true or not. I can't tell you the heart of the scammer. But you know, I'm thinking that it's just they got find out, so they have to switch gears, you know, they have to switch gears and do that sort of thing. So the person remains in love with them and vulnerable and then all of their economic viability is gone. So they become part of these scammers and they're even more vulnerable from a legal perspective because they're in the U.S. in most cases and governed by the laws there. And so they're the ones who are doing the transactions. They're the ones who are sending money to these countries and so on.
- [42:20]
Hannah Smith
They're the ones that could potentially be prosecuted if it came to that. Because as we see more and more, especially with international scammers, there's like this huge question of jurisdiction. And I mean, there's a lot of problems with getting any kind of justice, but if someone's in another country, like the U.S. local law enforcement's not going to do anything about it.
- [42:41]
Alec Kouros
Yeah, I did a keynote presentation about these deep fake scams at the Canadian organization for all of the police chiefs in the entire country. And basically at some point I said, what are you going to do about this? And it was absolute silence, like from police chiefs who you would think that across Canada would have some sense of what they can do about it, but it was just like, we can't do anything about this. Like there's too many of these problems. It's outside of our jurisdiction, we have no teeth elsewhere, we can't do much about it. I mean, they can deal with some of the local ones, but as I mentioned just before, these aren't the people that are probably the ones that should be prosecuted to the extent of the law. They're not the ones that initiated these things. They're not the ones that control the transactions or benefit from the transactions. They're victims who have been re victimized in many ways.
- [43:32]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:33]
Pasha Eaton
It's like, I wonder if maybe not that this is a solution, but just educating people who are in more vulnerable populations falling for things like this, like maybe, you know, elderly people or whoever their main sort of target is, and I don't know exactly how you reach them, but just getting the word out.
- [43:54]
Alec Kouros
See, that's a good point. Like, this is how they. One of the scammers mentioned, this is how they found their victims. They look for, in particular cases, they look for highly religious individuals who are widowed and of a certain age. And back then it was much easier to find those people on Facebook. Like, you can pull up a victim list very quickly if you're looking for keywords that, for like widowed or widower, God fearing, that sort of thing. And those are that particular perspective. And so the, the widowed widower, you know, these are women who are middle aged or older or elderly who have never done online dating before. And it was amazing how many times I heard from, you know, a victim who said, the only reason I started finding these people online is because I was with my husband my entire life. I never dated online. And then my daughter said, go, get out there and you can find someone. So on. And that's the worst advice you can give to your elderly parent who hasn't had any perception of what the Internet is or Internet scammers and so on. Like, it's not going to be a good ride for them. There's not a lot of people out there that are going to be sort of available in the pool that you want. Yeah, right. So I would not recommend it to anyone. So in many ways, daughters and not daughters in all cases. But, you know, whoever encouraged people to get online. But it was even things like, it wasn't just dating sites. Like there was all sorts of dating sites implicated, like, you know, Christian Mingle and eharmony and all of those sites. But it was things like Words with Friends. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, yeah, but that one was like quoted a number of times where someone just became your Words with Friends partner and you basically played with them long enough and you gained a relationship over there. So it was like, wow, demographic of a word for friends. It's not like young, hip teens for the most part.
- [45:38]
Pasha Eaton
Right, right.
- [45:39]
Hannah Smith
Well, this is the big question because I think that educating people is super important. I mean, I think talking about scams, Patia and I care about that a lot. We've talked about it. We continue to talk about it on our podcast because it's just happening more and more and more. And so educating is certainly important and spreading the news that this is happening, so be careful. But the advancement is happening so quickly. It's like there's a gap between how quickly these scams are progressing and evolving and how slowly we are to respond. I'm thinking about Even Facebook, you know, as an example and how much we started to see this happening of people being scammed on Facebook only because it was like one of the first sort of social media sites where people got on and were sharing tons of photos and it was used by such a wide portion of the population as opposed to smaller social media things. Then it just started happening and it was such a long period of time, realistically until Facebook responded and only recently has really cracked down on this. But then as you have explained, it just diverts the scammers to a different platform and a new platform and apps like a game that you play on your phone or dating apps. And now we have AI. So, you know, it's something that I'm curious. I imagine you probably think about a lot as a professor and someone who talks about social media and technology about like what needs to happen. I don't know if you think that policy like from a governmental level would work or if tech companies need to start changing, but it sort of feels like we're just not responding quickly enough.
- [47:20]
Alec Kouros
I agree. I think there's some regulation that could be done. I mean, I think big governments are really reluctant to put any regulation on social media companies or we'd have much more pleasant ways to go. There's particular articles around online safety that puts away the liability of social media companies. Like anything the users do, it's not the platform's fault. That's a big issue for sure. But I think, you know, you were speaking earlier about educating people and I do think that's the biggest thing is sort of having much broader and much, you know, much more uniform and universal education on some of these scams. Like yesterday I heard from, you know, the bank that I bank with and they're putting out information around deep fix and I think that's great and to be worried about deep fakes and that sort of thing. But like where were you five years ago when it started or 10 years ago when this started? And all of a sudden it's becoming a big issue because banks are being come limb implicated and it's affecting their bottom line because you're seeing examples of, you know, people pretending to be whoever, a banker on the other end and they're getting your bank information. So people don't get a sense of that. But like just like two days ago or three days ago, like Sora 2, you know, based on when we're recording this podcast, Sora 2, which is the video engine from OpenAI, came up with a cameo feature so you can have Sam Altman and create a video of him saying whatever. And that could be saying something like, you know, like, send me money or I'm, you know, I'm going public with OpenAI. And you know, if you want to be an early investor, like you can do that with that app right now. Like if you have access to it. It's incredibly realistic. Google's VO3 has been around for a while and although they say that you can't create celebrities, it doesn't have to be celebrities. You can create really convincing videos saying whatever, creating Personas, saying anything you want. So you can do this live, you can do this, create videos of this. The genie is out of the bottle. Like it's, we're at the point where the technology is just so incredibly convincing and it's only getting better every single day. If you're not good at Facebook, it doesn't matter. You can use Google's Gemini today just to get into a bunch of tools just to say, I want a person that looks like this holding this with a sign saying this. And you know, it's really, really simple to do that within seconds. So you don't have to know Photoshop, you don't have to have technical skills to create fake looking things. You just have to speak in natural language. Like, it's not about coding anymore. It's natural language. If you can speak in terms of what you want, you can have what you want. And it's scary. Like it's, it's really scary. And then I can project it over a webcam. I can take someone's over face, someone's face for a webcam. I can have this entire conversation with you just using someone else's face. Like so, you know, the education is long due. Regulation's not going to happen as quickly as we'd want it to happen. And a lot of people are gonna get burned.
- [50:14]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, I think recently in the news there was a story about a woman who unfortunately was scammed into thinking that she was dating Brad Pitt. And they were like these kind of awful photoshopped pictures of him. But there's also this side of it that is like the non celebrity of it all, makes it that much more believable. And deepfakes are, I mean, they're so much more common now even than they were. It's like I'll be on Instagram and I'll be scrolling through the ads and I'll see a deep fake of Oprah promoting something. I'm like, there's no way Oprah's behind this.
- [50:47]
Alec Kouros
Right. Scott Gallerman or I forget his name. There's a lot of people in that space, you know, who are Joe Rogans or whatever else. Like, you have prominent podcasters that are saying, buy these vitamins or whatever else, and it sends you to a link that's something that's totally, you know, different and, you know, things that are plausible for these particular influencers. Yeah, you can develop that, but it can be, again, anyone. So I can just. I can create a fake profile on something like Tinder. I can fake my location. So I'm. And it's happened in some cases. Like, I've had people that I know through social connections, and they say, oh, by the way, you just showed up on Tinder in North Carolina or, I know, some. Some problem, some state or something like that. And they kind of laugh, and so they notice me and they know who I am just because I have a fairly large online profile. And so at least they know. But from that point, if I connect with someone, you know, through that app or whoever, you create the most handsome or beautiful person just to, you know, try to get, you know, your swipe left or right. I don't even know. I've never used the app, one of those two, you know, and then connect with someone. Then, of course, from that face, you can use and create video. You can connect online. So it can be incredibly, incredibly convincing. So, again, really tough to discern truth from. Think big today.
- [52:08]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. On this note, just the difficulty of telling something that's real from something that's not. I don't know. It's like, I think because it's getting so much harder to decipher that. Yeah, like, a lot of people will be tricked. So it's like, what do you do if you're trying to date on Tinder? You meet someone and it looks very convincing. I guess you just have to, like, see people in person. Like, I feel like that's. Is that, like, literally the only answer?
- [52:32]
Alec Kouros
Basically, I think. I mean, there's. There's. There's. There's things that social media companies could do to make those things better, but they kind of interrupt the whole privacy piece, too. Like, I think it's great to be able to have, like, a verified profile, like something that. On the web that says, like, these things are me and this can. These profiles are connected to me. And I think social media companies can do that, but at the same time, people are targeted in that way. So, like, there's something around anonymity as much as free speech is happening and different Ways and, and looked at different ways in the US right now. And it's a bit intro turmoil. There's a need for many people that they're incredibly vulnerable to be able to speak anonymously. And so when you apply, you know, if you apply a solution for dating and deepfakes and that sort of thing, that is much more like we need to verify profiles, you might take away from some other problem on the web where people need anonymity. So I, I kind of understand, recognize that tension that you know, if we fix one problem, we're going to, you know, make something really much more difficult for other people as well. And so yeah, I think you're right. Like, I think, you know, meeting someone face to face, that that's going to be an important piece of that. But some people, you know, they recognize that, you know, you're not going to be able to meet face to face. Like I remember, you know, back in my day, like falling in love with someone over the phone. Like, like the phone was enough. I didn't have to see this person. You spend hours and hours talking to someone, charging up tremendous long distance bills right back in the day. And like any medium where you can connect to someone, you're gonna, you have the potential to fall in love. And there are people who have long distance relationships that are valid and are beautiful and have all of those things, but we have to be able to be able to do that too. So there's still a number of people who are gonna be vulnerable who are sort of getting into those relationships where it's just not feasible to find your life partner or your soulmate or whatever it might be through a very early initial face to face interaction. Right. So I think people are finding each other much more globally and you know, not necessarily from their jurisdiction. We're not, we're not in the generation where you're going to marry the person who you met in kindergarten.
- [54:41]
Pasha Eaton
Right?
- [54:41]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, it's like the beautiful part of the Internet and early Internet where it opened up and it was like, wow, I can meet people outside of my town, my like specific area. I mean probably most people that are together these days met online. Like I wouldn't be with my partner if it weren't for online dating.
- [54:59]
Pasha Eaton
I met my husband on Match before there was an app. Like we were both 24 and I would have never met him. He, he lived in Westwood.
- [55:11]
Alec Kouros
That's it. That's, that's exactly it. Right. Like, I think and like saying it's the beautiful part of web that is the beautiful part of the web and like to deny that from others just because like we have to. We're getting to the point where it's so. The web has become so difficult to trust. Like, I think it just takes a big part. Like the web is us, it's, it's life, it's beauty, it's, you know, I, I often use the hashtag shiny happy Internet. It's like, it's just there are some things that we see online, especially in the early web, that were just beautiful. You know, stories of people connecting and so on. And so it's really tarnished that aspect of it and, and I think it really does take away your dating pool and your possibilities for happiness and you know, companionship.
- [55:53]
Pasha Eaton
I'm curious, I guess it's changing gears a little bit, but I'm curious, when was the last time you received a message from someone who believed that you were someone else?
- [56:02]
Alec Kouros
No, it's been a couple months and this is really rare. So like, and it's just probably this past year I've maybe received seven or eight, I think. So it's, it's slowed down a lot, tremendously. And I, I don't see as many reports like there's a scam site that I used to check all the time and I haven't seen many pop up there anymore. So like I was wondering for the longest time like why, like I'm not, like I'm not a web celebrity in a big sense, but I'm out there enough that people can recognize, like they can do a quick Google search and verify who I am. I was always wondering like why they were using my photos at all when they could use someone that would be much less known, I guess, much easier to find, so on. Like I know this is happening to me, but I think there's a lot of people who don't know that it's happening to them. So like going back earlier to that advice where, you know, people could lock things up if someone maybe, maybe their Facebook profile was just public for just a little while, then they lock things up, those people's photos might be being used and they, those people have no idea that their photos are being used. And I guess part of, for me to understand, like for me to have known this in the first place, it's, it's, it's kind of a double edged sword to have it open. I guess people are able to find me and tell me about this. But some people who've been compromised in a very small way or there's been one of the websites hacked, for instance. And there's website hackings that happen all the time. You know, if you get. Your photos get compromised, you may not know this is happening to you. But I really do think that AI has really been the change here. Like, if I was a scammer, I wouldn't be using anyone's photos. Like, that's kind of the silliest way to do these things. You're going to get caught.
- [57:39]
Pasha Eaton
I have another question, actually about people reaching out to you, which is, even though now you have a way to show them pretty quickly, here's what has happened in instances where people have given up a lot of money or lost something to these scammers. Has anyone ever then asked you for their money back?
- [58:00]
Alec Kouros
Unfortunately not. Or fortunately not. I guess I don't know how to look at that. Mm. So at that point, like the, the most that's ever come up from those circumstances that they're not. Except for that. The Russian man, I think he's the only one that's after me. I've never been asked for the money back, but I have been sort of like, so are you open to a relationship? Are you single? That sort of thing. Like, and that's one of the sad things I see on a lot of this is I'll even say I'm sorry that he lost his money. And the common response from many of these victims is like, the money, like, I'll, I'll deal with it. I'll live with it. What I can't live with is my broken heart. Like, it's. It's really like these people have been drawn into this thing and they don't care about the money at that time. Like, of course they care about it. But the betrayal is not about money. The betrayal is about, like, I've spent months or even years in these cases where I've given you not just money, but I've given you my heart, I've given you my. Some of the best years of my life, you know, some of the dating years that, you know that the opportunities that I've lost, maybe to be in a relationship with someone else, heartbreaking. So that's what they've lost. You can't, you know, you can find money at some point, but you're not going to be able to take those years back. Right. And the betrayal and the trust and heartbreak is hard.
- [59:14]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah.
- [59:15]
Hannah Smith
I was wondering if anyone had ever asked you as a follow up to that, to corroborate their story, if they filed a police report or anything like that.
- [59:24]
Alec Kouros
No. Not that I know of. In one case, sort of the opposite. I've had one person who's been. Well, she stopped over the last year, although I think in the last year she sent me one. But probably since about 2015, there's this one person in the US that's been really convinced. I think. I think she's particularly vulnerable. I don't think she's. Her mental health is very well or she's not doing very well from that perspective. She sent me all sorts of images and she sent me lots of communications where I have to convince her. I think I'm convincing her that I'm not in a relationship with her, and then she'll send me something else like that she's been in contact with the other version of me, and then she believes she's in contact with me and she thinks I'm just kind of going back and she's confused and so on. She sent me, like, really explicit pictures and so on and stuff. That's gross in the sense that it's like she talks about my children like she knows them and that she's going to be with them. And at some point, like, she harassed me to the point where I had to call the police on her. And just like, I sort of identified where she lived. I called the local police. And it was interesting that this is like a small town in a state somewhere, and the police knew who she was as soon as I mentioned who it was and go, so, like, there's some story there. And they realized that she may be mentally unwell. And again, that's sort of like a victim who's been, I think, compromised in a particular way and being really leveraged in that way. So I feel really bad for this person.
- [60:59]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah.
- [61:00]
Alec Kouros
But this is one person who, for the longest time she was posting like, she's had websites where she's like, the future Dr. Kouros and like. And she'll post that onto my like. And it had lots of multiple profiles and she posts that onto my socials as well. Like, she finds a new profile and posts it on. On some of my profiles, which is just, you know, for people who don't know me. Like, I always. There's a lot of people that know me pretty well and understand this is going on for the person who's, you know, doesn't know me well and who's new to me. Like, seeing that sort of stuff again, I don't like taking those hits on my reputation.
- [61:36]
Hannah Smith
That's understandable for sure.
- [61:39]
Alec Kouros
Yeah.
- [61:40]
Hannah Smith
Yikes.
- [61:41]
Alec Kouros
Yeah.
- [61:41]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Sad. Sad all around, but you gotta do.
- [61:44]
Alec Kouros
What you gotta do. And I feel bad for this person and I hope she gets the help she needs, but she's really, really, you know, being victimized.
- [61:53]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. Acknowledging that the betrayal and the heartbreak is where you see these victims hurting the most. I'm curious just to get a sense of the scope here. If you have any sort of ballpark estimate of how much money these scammers have taken from people just using your Persona?
- [62:15]
Alec Kouros
Yeah, it's hard to know that for sure, but what's been estimated to me, like I've seen houses, in some cases, figures of hundreds of thousands of dollars. For some reason I see certain countries victimized more. So you'll see like it'll be reported in non US dollars. So I guess a lot of people from Brazil that tend to be victims. For instance, South America seems to be very big. A lot of southern states, some places in Europe for instance. But what I can ascertain from what they've said, just the numbers that they've shared, they've been well over, like, well over a million dollars. And that's just from a few cases. Not everyone implicates. Like I have the one that I mentioned that's sort of this long term person that I've had to call the police on, she sent me like photos of like gift cards. Like there's probably a hundred gift cards and I don't know what the values are on all those and that that's often a way that they'll get money. So I don't know what that's worth. But this is a person that doesn't have a lot of money. But every time she has money, she sends gift cards. So I have all of these images of gift cards that have been scratched and revealed to other people. So at least a million dollars from what's been declared to me, I suspect that's probably only about 5% of what I'm probably seeing. So I'm assuming there's quite a bit more.
- [63:31]
Pasha Eaton
Wow.
- [63:32]
Alec Kouros
And I can't verify any of that for sure.
- [63:34]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, but I mean, just it's, it's telling just from what people have shared with you. And yeah, I mean it's an incredible loss for, for anyone who found themselves in a situation where they believed that someone loved them. I mean, if you're dating someone and you are that deep into it, I'm sure you've told people in your life about them too. And so it's probably not even a secret in their world and then they have to reconcile. Actually I got scammed. There's so much. Even though there shouldn't be shame and embarrassment around it because it could truly happen to anyone. There is. And that is just, it's heart wrenching.
- [64:10]
Alec Kouros
Well, and that's one of the tactics that these scammers do is they try to get you away from their friends so we. Because often they can set the alarm and that sort of thing. So they will try to isolate you. Like they'll say things like, our love. People wouldn't understand it. And, you know, because it's an online thing, I think you have to recognize that this is not just only uneducated or vulnerable people. I've had very well educated professors and, you know, professionals who have said, I'm incredibly embarrassed by it, like, I fell for this. And they just happen to be of that certain demographic that they're vulnerable emotionally, not necessarily for, you know, from, you know, from a lack of, lack of understanding. They just got kind of caught up with these things and they thought it was true. And so this happens to everyone and I guess lack, I mean, lack of general education. They may not have known a lot about scams, but, you know, well educated in other respects, highly intelligent and so on. This can happen to anyone.
- [65:06]
Pasha Eaton
Oh, yeah. I mean, Hannah and I have been covering different instances of fraud for so long now. And it is certainly not determined by someone's intelligence or level of education. The people who do this, who scam people, are just very good at it.
- [65:23]
Alec Kouros
They're very good. And it's the scripts they share. It's not only the photos they share. These share scripts, scenarios. They are incredibly organized in terms of what they need to do. Like, this is just so well done. They know psychology better than most psychology grads will understand in terms of how they can actually dominate, leverage human psychology and really get people to do what they want. This is incredible persuasion. And this is done because of so much repetition. They're doing this over and over again. They're successful. They're sharing it with friends or their, their colleagues, I guess. And yeah, I mean, at that point, I mean, we are beings who are incredibly vulnerable from a psychological perspective, from an emotional perspective. And you see this in politics, you see this in government, politicians and so on. People can be made vulnerable and that can be leveraged for your advantage in whatever way you might want to do that.
- [66:16]
Hannah Smith
And so, yeah, yeah, so be careful out there.
- [66:21]
Pasha Eaton
Don't send anybody money or if you.
- [66:24]
Alec Kouros
See a picture of me, just, it's not me, it's not Alec.
- [66:29]
Pasha Eaton
Well, you're A student who called out our podcast. She has great taste.
- [66:35]
Alec Kouros
I think she does. Yeah.
- [66:36]
Pasha Eaton
For sure.
- [66:36]
Hannah Smith
A thank you so much for joining us, Alec, and talking us through all of this. It's been really interesting and informative.
- [66:45]
Alec Kouros
No, it's been great. It's nice to be able to voice this out and just say the things that, you know, it kind of helps me put things together as well in my mind and reform this. And so I really recognize the power of these questions and for you to be able to share this to a wider audience, I think it's great. I really appreciate your desire to do that and for being a guest today.
- [67:05]
Pasha Eaton
Thanks for taking the time. So, Hannah, after our off record episode, which is number 122 for anyone who wants to go back and listen, that hasn't after that episode released, you heard from Alec?
- [67:21]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, he listened to the podcast and reached out to me and was like, thanks for spreading the word. And then because there weren't any recent articles about him, I think the last one that I had found was, like, from 2020, I was curious to talk to him about if it was still happening, especially with the use of AI now. Like, things have just changed so much in the last five years. So I was really excited that he agreed to come on the show and like, talk to us more about his story. In the episode. I think you asked him, you know, do you know how much money was taken overall by this scammer or group of scammers using his photo? Yeah. And I think he estimated like a million dollars or something.
- [68:00]
Pasha Eaton
He estimated a million dollars? Yeah.
- [68:02]
Hannah Smith
So then he actually emailed me and followed up after the interview and, you know, he said, after reviewing some of the information and considering my previous messages, I realized that I likely underestimated the total amount involved. There are people that reached out to him, said that they had to, like, foreclose their house, who had given, you know, a lot of their savings to different scammers. Like, people lost a lot of money. And he thinks, he said he can't verify this, but he believes that it would be more like multiple millions, probably between 3 and 10 million.
- [68:32]
Pasha Eaton
Wow.
- [68:32]
Hannah Smith
That he would estimate as he just pieced together messages he's gotten from people. So this is like a massive scam being orchestrated with his face.
- [68:41]
Pasha Eaton
With his face. And in other instances, like more pieces of his identity than just that. So this estimate he's giving us is still only based on the people who have managed to find him and share their story.
- [68:54]
Hannah Smith
Yes.
- [68:54]
Pasha Eaton
And not all of the people that we know Haven't.
- [68:56]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, that's a good point. So it could be much more than that.
- [68:59]
Pasha Eaton
So much more. Yeah. I mean, I think it's pretty great that he has chosen to face this head on when he could easily not respond to these messages. This has nothing to do with him.
- [69:10]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [69:11]
Pasha Eaton
Other than that someone stole his photo. But he takes the time and he has taken the time to like, here's the story, so that he can relay that to someone who's going through it and hopefully stop them from giving more money to these people.
- [69:23]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. It was interesting though to hear him talk about these type of scams and how they run like well oiled machines and how usually it's not just like one person doing this, it's someone who's connected to an organization that is scamming people and that there could be a lot of factors at play, like people could be coerced to be part of this, you know, scammer organization. And I feel like we see more and more of that actually happening.
- [69:50]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. So I actually listened to an episode of Criminal. It was titled the Compound. And it was about a woman who thought she had gotten a new administrative role. This is in another country outside of the US and she was given all these directions. She was relocating for this job. And she gets there and realizes that she's basically held captive and being forced to operate as part of this organized crime unit, scamming people. Everything from romance scams to other types of fraud. And essentially a prisoner there and they have to meet these quotas. And she never wanted to do this. She never wanted to be there. It's called the Compound. It's on the Criminal feed. And it was just a really informative episode.
- [70:37]
Hannah Smith
Wow. I mean, we love Criminal.
- [70:38]
Pasha Eaton
We love Criminal.
- [70:39]
Hannah Smith
What a great show. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Okay. So I think that is something that is happening so often and like when you get a call or whatever from a scammer that it's probably not just a person randomly doing this. They're probably involved in some sort of scheme or organization. Maybe not always, but probably. About a year ago I got a call and look, I think I pretty quickly like realized I think this is a scam. But of course I was sort of interested to see where it went. So this guy calls me and he's like, he says his name is Lieutenant Justin Bruce.
- [71:13]
Pasha Eaton
I mean, it sounds like someone we would have reached out to at some point. Totally.
- [71:17]
Hannah Smith
And he's like, you know, basically the whole thing he's trying to say is you didn't show up for Jury duty. It's one of these scams. And, you know, now there's a fine. And he gives me this reference number, FTA 1129. Like, you know, so official. And I'm like, where am I supposed to put this reference number in? You know? And so I sort of started Googling and quickly realized, like, this is for sure a scam. He was trying to get me to pay $500 plus a $32 service fee so that you're not in contempt of court. And eventually I just was like, well, I know this is a scam. And I was surprised because he was like, oh, you do? And I was like, yeah, I actually work in podcasting and true crime, and I do a lot of research about scams. And so I'm pretty familiar that this is a scam. And he was like, oh, wow. Yeah. So then he just starts talking to me. He says he's been in prison in Georgia for seven years.
- [72:08]
Pasha Eaton
Oh, my gosh.
- [72:09]
Hannah Smith
And he was. He was going to get out in like, six months or something. So I just started to ask him, like, what is the scam? You know, like, do you make money on this? Do people. He's like, yeah, you know, and most people, like, don't fall for it, but sometimes we do get people who are giving money. And he said that he worked for basically a gang, like, in prison, and that he had connected with them in order to be safe and survive in prison. And part of his role was that he kept all the cell phones that they used in his cell and that he had to do a certain amount of calls and that there was someone in the group who would come up with these schemes. There was multiple of them. You know, this lieutenant, Justin Bruce, was one of these. So they come up with a reference number and all of this stuff to try to make it seem real.
- [72:55]
Pasha Eaton
Like, a lieutenant of what, sir?
- [72:57]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, what are we talking about? But I don't know. It was interesting. Cause he was like. He kind of was looking at it like a job that he had and that he was able to survive this way. And he's like, I don't feel good about it, but it's not like I have other ways of making money in here, and I've been able to survive.
- [73:14]
Pasha Eaton
Wow.
- [73:14]
Hannah Smith
Anyway, so I sort of wanted to interview him, but then he started to get, like, sort of creepy and flirty, and I was like, ooh, got to know we're gonna have to hang up and never talk to you again. But I do wish him the best. And I thought it was Interesting to hear that. Wow. Like, these scams are even coming out of prisons.
- [73:32]
Pasha Eaton
I mean, similar to this episode I was talking about with on the Criminal Feed. It's. He doesn't want to be doing this. He feels like he has no choice, and maybe he doesn't. I've. I've never been in that situation, but it's terrible because a lot of the people that fall for these scams are elderly. Maybe they're alone and they don't know any better. There's no one they can ask or they can't hop on Google and see.
- [73:55]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [73:56]
Pasha Eaton
And, yeah, one of those people was almost my grandpa.
- [73:59]
Hannah Smith
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
- [74:00]
Pasha Eaton
And so I called him Poppy. He has since passed away, but my whole life was just so close to Poppy. He was just the best.
- [74:09]
Hannah Smith
I love that.
- [74:10]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. And we talked all the time. And when I actually was going through my archives to pull up this letter about the scam I'm going to tell you about, I showed you on Zoom. It was so thick. It was like five inches thick of just letters from him. He was the best. And I talked to him all about, like, my life, you know, we. We just talked about everything. And I had moved to Los Angeles a few years before this happened, so he knew I was, like, in this big city, and I think he worried a little bit. But, yeah, so we'd been talking all the time. And then in October, I got a letter from him, which usually was just like a silly old family photo with the story and socks from Costco. Like, that's usually what he sent. But this letter. So I got it, and I'll read it, because this is all the context I had when I received it was just the letter.
- [74:56]
Hannah Smith
Okay.
- [74:56]
Pasha Eaton
Patia can't get over our recent phone talk. You only had one glass of wine. Don't want to call your father. You were vague on the rules and of bonds. I didn't not call your father because you made me promise not to. For me, this doesn't add up. You surely sound poorly. So very sorry. So sorry, Poppy.
- [75:20]
Hannah Smith
Oh, my gosh. That's heartbreaking.
- [75:22]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, Heartbreaking. And he was in his 80s, and so I call him when I get this, and I'm like, what is this letter? I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I had no idea about the scam at this point. I was not familiar. And he said that he'd gotten a call from me or who he thought was me saying that I was in jail on the east coast and that I had been drinking and driving and been pulled over, and I needed him to bail me out. And I didn't want my parents to know. And he's not like a tech savvy person. He didn't know how to, like, get online and give money. So thankfully, he didn't end up giving them any money.
- [76:00]
Hannah Smith
Okay, that's good.
- [76:01]
Pasha Eaton
But he was distraught emotionally because for the week that passed between us talking and me getting this letter, he thought that I was in jail.
- [76:10]
Hannah Smith
Why didn't he try calling you?
- [76:12]
Pasha Eaton
So I don't know. And it's possible that he did and I just, for whatever reason, hadn't called him back yet.
- [76:18]
Hannah Smith
Okay.
- [76:18]
Pasha Eaton
But if I had to guess, he didn't call. Cause he just thought he would hear from me when I got out.
- [76:23]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [76:24]
Pasha Eaton
Cause he really believed it. Yeah. And he didn't know how to FaceTime or anything. So all of our communication was just letters and phone calls. Cause he lived in Naples, Florida, and I was in Los Angeles. So, yeah, I call him and I said, I haven't been traveling. I've been here the whole time. And I wasn't drinking and driving. And I've never been arrested or to jail for anything. And he was like, I think, hesitant to believe me.
- [76:49]
Commercial Announcer 2
Wow.
- [76:50]
Pasha Eaton
And so then I'm getting online and I'm like, oh, scam. This is a scam. And so then I told him. I was like, poppy, like, you can always call my parents. Like, if you ever think I'm in trouble, you can always call my parents. Those are the kind of parents I have. And you don't have to keep any secrets from them. I think that made him feel like, oh, okay, this was probably not real. And then I got another little letter. It said, I'll never get over thinking you were in jail in Boston, Poppy. I mean, it's so sad.
- [77:22]
Hannah Smith
Oh, no.
- [77:23]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. Yeah. So luckily he didn't give any money, but he was very upset because he thought I was just sitting in some jail cell on a DUI charge.
- [77:33]
Hannah Smith
That's heartbreaking.
- [77:34]
Pasha Eaton
Heartbreaking.
- [77:35]
Hannah Smith
I'm glad that he believed you and came around to understand that.
- [77:39]
Pasha Eaton
I know, it's horrible. I know. I'm like, oh, what a sweet grandpa. He had my back. He kept my secret. Not that I think he should have, but he went really well.
- [77:48]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [77:48]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. So, I mean, it's. You know, these scams have gotten more elaborate over time, but it could really happen to anybody. And I know we say that all the time, but it's true. And something Alec talked about also is like the shame and embarrassment that People feel, and it's just really sad. And I think it's awesome that Alec's out there talking about it.
- [78:07]
Hannah Smith
I do too. I also am, like, I'm really hoping that there's some sort of protections that happen with AI, because if that had happened, the same thing with your grandpa had happened in, like, I don't know, a few years. I don't even know. Maybe now, like, someone could use an AI version of your voice.
- [78:26]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah.
- [78:26]
Hannah Smith
And then it's like, how is anyone supposed to know if it's real or not?
- [78:30]
Pasha Eaton
Oh, totally. Or, like, the deep fakes that are coming out. I mean, like, we post our faces on social media. It's not that hard to grab a picture of almost anyone these days. I watched this YouTube channel called Blacktail Studio. It's this guy in Oregon who makes these, like, really cool epoxy tables.
- [78:49]
Hannah Smith
Okay.
- [78:50]
Pasha Eaton
Okay. So he just moved to this, like, ranch in Oregon. And mostly my husband likes the tables. They're cool.
- [78:57]
Hannah Smith
You like the ranch?
- [78:58]
Pasha Eaton
I'm just waiting for him to get a horse. This is my, like, I'm just like, please get a horse. Please get a horse. So. But anyway, I was watching, and he actually had someone pretend to be him and sell someone a table. And these tables are really expensive. Not that they're not worth it.
- [79:14]
Hannah Smith
Wait, it wasn't him. Someone pretended to be him. Yeah. And he was exposing that.
- [79:19]
Pasha Eaton
Right. And he was exposing it.
- [79:20]
Hannah Smith
I see.
- [79:21]
Pasha Eaton
The person that they were scamming was sent a video of him talking to her, but it was a deep fake. And this is, like, It's a successful YouTube channel, but it's not like this guy can't walk down the street.
- [79:34]
Hannah Smith
Right, Right, right, right.
- [79:35]
Pasha Eaton
And someone's making a deep fake of him selling this table.
- [79:38]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [79:39]
Pasha Eaton
And he actually found the person who had been scammed and made her a table, which is so sweet.
- [79:44]
Hannah Smith
Oh, that's so nice.
- [79:45]
Pasha Eaton
I love that.
- [79:46]
Hannah Smith
I love that story.
- [79:47]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah.
- [79:48]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. I mean, you know, in our conversation with Alec, it was, like, very focused on education, which I think is probably, like, the best thing that we can be. Right. As we keep talking about this, hopefully people will be aware of these scams. But I also just, like, really feel like there's gonna have to be some kind of regulation at some point.
- [80:04]
Pasha Eaton
There has to be more we can do to protect people. I mean, even the fact that on your cell phone now, it's, like, potential spam. I'm not answering. And I think that's so helpful.
- [80:12]
Hannah Smith
I like that it pops up like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what an interesting conversation with Alec. I'm so glad he joined us.
- [80:18]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, thanks for listening.
- [80:19]
Hannah Smith
We'll talk to you next week.
- [80:23]
Pasha Eaton
If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram heknifepodcast or bluesky athenifepodcast.
- [80:33]
Hannah Smith
This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.
- [80:38]
Pasha Eaton
And me, Pasha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and Alexis Amorosi.
- [80:42]
Hannah Smith
This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.
- [80:45]
Pasha Eaton
Our associate producer is Christina Chamber Chamberlain.
- [80:47]
Hannah Smith
Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
- [80:49]
Pasha Eaton
Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
- [80:51]
Hannah Smith
Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
- [81:04]
Alec Kouros
Wednesdays on BET an all new episode of 106 in Sports from executive producers LeBron James and Maverick Carter. Ashley, Nicole Moss and Cam Newton break down top moments in sports, culture and Entertainment. Check out 106 in sports on BET and next day on BET. Plus, there's a million things to stress about when flying overweight luggage, TSA lines, delays, overpriced airport lunches. Your rental car shouldn't be one of them with Avis. First, your rental comes with a personal concierge who meets you at arrivals, hands you the keys to a previous premium car and refills it for you at market price when you're done. You've rented before, but trust me when I say you've never rented quite like this. Welcome to Avis First. Visit Avis.com to learn more.
- [81:52]
Hannah Smith
Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four. No fees, ease, no interest.
- [82:05]
Alec Kouros
I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruney body.
- [82:11]
Hannah Smith
Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.
- [82:14]
Alec Kouros
Save the offer in the app ends 1231. See paypal.com promoterms points can be redeemed for cash and more. Paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457.