Hannah Smith (2:06)

Search Live Fest 2025 on TikTok and back your favorite creators.

Pasha Eaton (2:10)

Let's celebrate Live together.

Hannah Smith (2:13)

This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

Pasha Eaton (2:18)

The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right.

Kylie Burse (2:27)

I feel very sick to my stomach because clearly what has happened is someone has been pretending to be me. I'm like, you need to call the police. This is a crime. Someone has been impersonating me. That is not me.

Hannah Smith (2:53)

Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.

Pasha Eaton (2:56)

I'm Paisha Eaton and today we're speaking with Kylie Burse. Kylie is a meteorologist living in Colorado. She loves her job and connecting with her local community, but for the last three years, she's been the victim of a stalker.

Hannah Smith (3:09)

Kylie walks us through the events that led to her feeling unsafe in her own home. She's recently gone public with her story and hopes to shed light on the systems that fail victims of stalking and how we need to do better.

Pasha Eaton (3:21)

Let's get into the interview.

Hannah Smith (3:27)

Kylie, welcome to the Knife.

Kylie Burse (3:29)

Thank you for having me.

Pasha Eaton (3:30)

Yeah, we're really excited to speak with you today.

Hannah Smith (3:33)

If you can just start by introducing yourself, that'd be great.

Pasha Eaton (3:36)

Yeah.

Kylie Burse (3:37)

I'm a local news meteorologist. I am here on the local Fox affiliate in Denver. I'm a morning meteorologist. So we're on from 4:30 until about 11:00 every morning. And I've been doing it for almost 15 years now. Been here in Denver for about eight years. I originally studied journalism. I thought I wanted to be a war correspondent, you know, an investigative reporter. And I did it for about a year. And I remember in my first job, my boss goes, I saw on your reel from college you did ski reports at CU Boulder. He's like, can you do weekend weather for a little bit? We just need some help. And I'm like, okay, sure. I'll take whatever job I can get. This was just after the recession. So you took the job and you did whatever. And I really loved it. And I remember I covered really horrible crime cases. I covered an execution at one point, and I was like, this is not for me. I'm a very empathetic person. And what I loved about the weather and meteorology is that you got to be on the forefront of before the disaster happened. So hopefully you could educate people. And when you showed up to a scene, you know that you did everything you could to help them know how to get through a tornado safely, how to, you know, drive safe in a snowstorm, don't drive through flooded waters. I liked the education part versus just showing up when tragedy had already happened and there was nothing you can do. You felt very helpless. I felt like as a journalist versus as a meteorologist, I felt like I was actually doing something that was helping people.

Pasha Eaton (4:57)

As a local meteorologist, Kylie is someone that people are going to every morning for reliable information. In a place where the weather can be pretty extreme, this cultivates a sense of familiarity and also a sense of trust. And sometimes when Kylie's out around town, she gets recognized. And most of the time, she loves.

Kylie Burse (5:15)

It when someone comes up to you and they say, hi, I watch you every morning. We wake up with you, we turn, you know, the TV on every morning and they feel comfortable enough to come up and tell you. That's when I feel like I've done a really good job. Because you want people to feel like we are your friend, we are part of your morning routine. We're someone that you can trust. Right. And if they feel comfortable enough to come up and say hi to you, it's the world's biggest compliment. You've done something right in your job. And I can remember the first time someone recognized me. And it's such a. It's a weird feeling, but now it's just like you're grateful every single time. 95% of the time is extremely positive. There are cases, and it's happened my entire career, where it's immediately uncomfortable. And you kind of know, okay, I just need to keep, like, hands, you know, arm's distance away from this person. But I'd say that's a very small fraction of the time.

Hannah Smith (6:02)

Take us to the beginning of this interaction with the person that we're going to talk about. What's the first kind of interaction that you remember having?

Kylie Burse (6:10)

I remember it really well, actually, because it wasn't an unusual interaction, but there were some red flags in it. I was one of the. They called us celebrity judges for all the local news friends. We got together and we judged a firefighter chili cook off, which is a blast. You go, you're interacting with the fire men and women. They're incredible. And we invite the public. For years, I've always put charity events on the news, but on my Instagram and said, come support this amazing cause. So sometimes you get people who come up, they say, hey, I saw you talking about this. I wanted to come out. I wanted to meet you. Normally when people come up to you, they come up and they say a quick hello, and then they're able to, you know, mingle in with the crowd. Go try the chili.

Pasha Eaton (6:50)

Over 3,000 people attend the annual Denver Firefighters Chili Cook Off. It's a massive event. People come together to taste the chili, but more importantly, to raise money for local organizations that help firefighters and their families. And in 2022, Kylie was attending as a judge. Kylie and the other judges made their way around the event, going from booth to booth, trying the different chili's. And that's when she first noticed him.

Kylie Burse (7:17)

I remember he followed our group probably about 30, 40ft away, just kind of stood in the background. You know, we usually had a couple of bigger guys with this group just to kind of know if people were to get a little bit too aggressive. They could kind of step in. But he wasn't aggressive by any means. He was just in the background. He came up a few times. He told me he drove over an hour to come and meet me. I was very flattered. And he kind of followed the whole time, just kind of watched. And at the end came and said goodbye and we said goodbye. I didn't really think too much of it from there.

Pasha Eaton (7:48)

I'm curious, in those interactions, like does someone who recognize you, do you hug? Do you handshake, Is it more of just like a wave or what does that interaction look like?

Kylie Burse (8:00)

You know, I mean it can be so different. I've had people who I've absolutely wanted to hug and they'll be like respectful. Most people don't. I'd say it's usually a handshake. Usually it's just they come up and they say hello and you talk for a little bit. It's usually extremely pleasant, at least on my end. I hope they have a pleasant experience too. That's always the goal of it. But sometimes they want to give you a hug and most of the time that's totally fine. And a lot of times the last too.

Pasha Eaton (8:23)

Did he want to give you a hug?

Kylie Burse (8:25)

I don't remember in this circumstance. He did in later interactions would go in for the hug. But in this one I don't remember specifically. This was at this point someone that was just a viewer who I didn't know anything about.

Pasha Eaton (8:38)

So we aren't going to use his name. But Kylie, could you tell us a little bit about what this man looked like?

Kylie Burse (8:45)

Yeah, he seemed very non threatening. He was very kind, very jolly. He was in his mid-60s, he had a mustache. He was extremely friendly to everyone who interacted with him.

Hannah Smith (8:57)

And so, you know, you go to this charity event, you meet him, you sort of notice him. At least in the moment it's a little noticeable. Oh, he seems to be sort of maybe sticking around a little longer than other people do, but he doesn't seem that threatening. And then when is the next time that this same person comes on your radar?

Kylie Burse (9:14)

I started to notice there were some emails and some Instagram messages. Nothing that was particularly noteful. I get a lot of people who respond when you're trying to build a personal brand and get to know people, you're responding to just about everyone. So I'd say there was some light interaction that had happened via email and on Instagram. And then the next time of note was when I threw my own personal fundraiser. I have a hiking website called Approachable Outdoors. And we were raising money for children here in Colorado. And it was a dream that I'd always had, and I obviously advertised it to the public. I'd have family that came up to help me put it on. And that day I showed up about an hour and a half early to the restaurant to get set up, and there were a couple of people, and he was one of them who had showed up early to help. And I was trying to say thank you so much. It's actually a little bit more helpful if you just wait downstairs. We haven't actually opened up tickets yet. He kind of. Whenever I would go to, like, open a box, he'd go grab the box and start undoing the box. And so he's, you know, he's saying, I'm here to help. Put me to work. I'm here to help. So I'm assuming very kind intentions on his part at that point. I just needed me and my friends and family to get the fundraiser set up as quickly as possible. He stayed for the whole fundraiser, and a lot of people interacted with him and they said, oh, that really nice older man, you know, he drove over an hour to come in and see you today. That's so sweet. And I describe it as overzealous at this point point, which I'd experienced with a lot of viewers in the past, but it was a little bit annoying to have someone, while you're trying to dictate an order, kind of jump in and try and mitigate that for you. So it's a little frustrating. He stayed and then he helped kind of unpack again. I said, no, no. But he wasn't leaving.

Hannah Smith (10:58)

It's like the house guest who keeps trying to help in the kitchen, and you're like, please just literally go sit on the couch until I'm done in here.

Kylie Burse (11:04)

Right? They're unloading the dishwasher and they're putting everything away in the wrong spot, and you're like, where does this go?

Pasha Eaton (11:08)

Where does this go?

Hannah Smith (11:09)

Where does it.

Pasha Eaton (11:09)

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Kylie Burse (11:11)

Yeah, yeah.

Pasha Eaton (11:12)

At first, Kylie chalked up this man's enthusiasm to just being excited to meet her. Even him driving an hour to show up at one of her events didn't really faze her because fans did that sometimes. It's when he began reaching out to her on Instagram and leaving this steady stream of direct messages and comments that it all became very off putting. This gave Kylie pause, but it didn't quite feel dangerous, at least not yet.

Kylie Burse (11:40)

In the months after the fundraiser, it more so became extremely frequent and started to become a little obsessive. And again, I have dealt with this for a long time. But then he started reaching out to my friends and family to the point where people were contacting me and saying, hey, this guy's reaching out. And that became odd. It was at that point that he started reaching out to my friends and family that I started to then block his social media accounts. And when you block someone on Instagram, it blocks any new account that they might make with that email address. Right. If anyone's ever blocked someone, it says that he probably by the end of this had seven or eight different accounts, which means he had to make different emails every single time. And they always had his name in it. So they were very easy to spot. And he would go through and constantly on each new account be adding my friends who are private messaging them. And I remember what really kind of broke the back for me was when he reached out to my sister in law and he was pretending like he was going interested and she was an artist, she's a beautiful artist. And he's going on and on about what he wants to buy and everything. And then the interaction gets very odd and she tells my brother and my brother goes, that's the guy that Kylie's been dealing with. And he messaged me and he's like, look, he can't be reaching out to my wife. Like, this is completely inappropriate. And at this point I've changed. Not only with all the blocking, I've changed my social. No family members are being tagged anymore. Anyone who's not public, I'm not using their handle because he would go and find them and message them.

Hannah Smith (13:14)

When he reached out to your sister in law, how long had this been going on?

Kylie Burse (13:17)

About a year, year, year and a half at this point.

Hannah Smith (13:20)

Wow. Who all in your life did you notify that this was going on?

Kylie Burse (13:25)

I notified several other meteorologists. I kind of went through my, my list and saw who he was following and just gave them a heads up. We do that a lot. If someone's a little extra creepy, we'll send each quick message, hey, heads up. This guy, he's following you. You may just want to block him. He got a little bit weird in X, Y and Z ways. So I just let a couple other people know this guy's following you. It's gotten a little bit too much to the point I've had to block. And he kind of talked to my friends and family a lot. And I also want to say at this point, like there's nothing threatening there's nothing mean. It's just a lot of messages and then the new accounts and whatnot. So it's borderline where you're like, this feels wrong and it is wrong. But is he technically, officially, at this point, doing anything wr?

Pasha Eaton (14:08)

Can you give me an example of one of the messages that comes in? I mean, I wouldn't expect you to remember it verbatim, but, like, something close in nature to one of those messages, like, was it hope you have a good day? Or like, what kind of messages was he sending early on?

Kylie Burse (14:25)

Yeah, just responding to, like, I would travel and every single story I would post. Love this. Hope you're having fun. Again, nothing that's raising any red flags, so it's more just commenting on every single one. I'd wake up in the morning and he would have spent hours going back through and liking every single one of my posts from a new Instagram account after I had already blocked him. So I would see the hundreds and hundreds of likes in the notifications. So it didn't necessarily strike me as concerning in a threatening way at this point, but the obsession is what started to make me feel a little bit uneasy. And then when it really reached a point was my friend was traveling and she was in Thailand, and he responded to her story saying, I can't wait to take Kylie here. And so she messaged me and she's like, now it's getting weird.

Hannah Smith (15:13)

Yeah, that's sort of. I mean, already the knowing that someone's blocked you and then creating another account to then continue messaging them and then this happening multiple times is an indicator of maybe someone's mental state. But that message is so concerning. Right. It's like, what reality is this person living in?

Kylie Burse (15:33)

I remember at the time saying, if we can just block and ignore, I really hope his obsession stops. If I can kind of cut off the source, you know, because sometimes when you're dealing with people who send you nasty emails and not that this person was being nasty, but when people are targeting you in a way online. I've dealt with this for years in the local news. If you give them the response, it's what they want, and it almost escalates them further. And so that was always my thought, was, I don't want to escalate this further. I don't want to escalate this.

Pasha Eaton (16:04)

Kylie pretty reasonably hoped that if she simply ignored this person, then surely they would take a hint, he would leave her alone, he would understand that she was not interested and the whole thing would just fizzle out. But that did not work. He wouldn't go away. Kylie really didn't want to escalate this, but soon she wouldn't have a choice.

Kylie Burse (16:27)

Hey, I'm Lindsay. Hydradenitis Suppurativa HS caused bumps and abscesses.

Hannah Smith (16:33)

That made me feel embarrassed.

Kylie Burse (16:35)

I talked to my dermatologist and started a treatment that works for me.

Hannah Smith (16:39)

Cosentyx. I found relief. Cosentyx Secukenum is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe hidradenitis suppurativa. Don't use if allergic to Cosentyx. Get checked for TB before starting. Increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur like TB or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or plan to, or if IBD symptoms develop or worsen. Serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentix.com you're stronger than HS.

Kylie Burse (17:22)

Ask your dermatologist about Cosentix.

Pasha Eaton (17:25)

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. It's a refreshing way to shake things up this sipping season, and only for a limited time. Obey your thirst.

Kylie Burse (17:41)

Forget everything you had planned for this.

Hannah Smith (17:43)

Weekend because you are sitting on your.

Kylie Burse (17:46)

Couch and winning from the comfort of your own home.

Hannah Smith (17:48)

I'm here with spinquest where you can play hundreds of slot games, all the table games you love, and you could even win real cash prizes.

Kylie Burse (17:57)

New users $30 coin packs are on.

Hannah Smith (17:59)

Sale for 10 at spinquest.com SpinQuest is.

Kylie Burse (18:03)

A free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details at CVS it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night, and we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit us@cvs.com or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location. In summer of 2023. I'm blocking multiple accounts at this point and I lead hikes for a local wine classic and so I was up in the mountains. And at this point, I had called the company ahead of time because I'd worked with them for a couple years. And I said, can you just double check that this man didn't buy tickets? We've just had some issues. I was like, nothing to worry about, but we've had some concerns. And they looked and they were like, nope. And I was like, great. We are good to go. I'm like, please flag that name. If he does buy a ticket and whatnot, I would like to know. And the way that it works is we lead a hike. We're with a winemaker. We have a little wine on the trail, and then we come back down for a paired meal. I'm leading a group, about 20 to 30 people, so I'm responsible for all of these people. We come down off of the hike, and I had publicly said, come join us on this hike and whatnot. And we get down from the hike, we're heading into the restaurant, and he shows up, and he's holding a box. And he kind of stops me as I'm walking, gets in front of me, and I know exactly who he is. And so I say, hi. I go, what are you doing here? He's like, I haven't been able to get you to respond. You know, I've been trying to see you. I've been trying to see you. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I don't know what you're talking about. I was like, I'm actually here with the group. And he's got a box in his hand. And he goes, I have your hiking boots. And I said, you know, I'm so grateful. This is really nice, but I can't accept these. And he's insisting, and I say, you know, like, they're not my size. Maybe you could return them. And he goes, you told me these were your size. And at this point, this is when I start to realize that something else had been happening here. And he pulls out his phone because I said, I didn't tell you my s. I haven't been talking to you. Pulls out his phone, and he shows me thousands of messages. He's just scrolling. And he goes, I've been talking to you. We've been in a relationship for the last year. And I immediately I feel very sick to my stomach, because clearly what has happened is someone has been pretending to be me. I'm like, you need to call the police. This is a crime. Someone has been impersonating me. That is not me. I'm so sorry. We are not in a relationship. And he's crying. Keep in mind, I have a group of people who are walking past me, and I said, you know, I'm really sorry. You need to file a police report. I hope you haven't given them any money. I would never ask for money. And he's crying. But there's also something that's weird because he's pulling out the phone, and my friend looks at it and she goes, that's not an area code she's associated with at all. He goes, I know she's not from there. And she was like, well, if you knew that wasn't her area code, why would you think that was her? She goes, none of these. This is not how Kylie speaks. And he's. And now it's getting just a little bit funky at this point, an employee, actually the head of the festival, comes out and he's like, is everything okay? I'm like, I'm so sorry. And so I've been trying to leave for several minutes at this point, and he's crying. It's a very. Just horrible situation because at this point, I feel very guilty that someone has potentially scammed someone using my name. But then we go inside and I get alerted that he has now tried to come back into the building multiple times. And each time, one of those employees kind of knew what was happening and stopped him and said, you know, you're making Kylie really uncomfortable. You need to leave. He'd be like, he'd leave, and then he'd come back, I need to talk to Kylie. I need to talk to Kylie. And then I start getting text messages from him. He says, I'm so sorry if you and your boyfriend break up, maybe we can start over. By the way, your information is out there.

Pasha Eaton (22:19)

Even after having been told by Kylie in person that she did not know him, that she wasn't the person he was speaking with online, and that likely someone was actually just impersonating her. She tried completely ignoring him on social media, and he still managed to track down her number and send her a text. It was all really alarming. Kylie had made it so clear that she had no desire to be in contact with this man. But then came the emails. And in those emails, this man addressed Kylie as his wife.

Kylie Burse (22:51)

And at this point, in order to then pursue a restraining order of some kind, you need to say, you have to stop. Please stop contacting me. And so I go, please do not contact me again. And he says, I'm going to talk to you on the other number. And that's when I realized that he does not believe that I am not in a relationship with him.

Pasha Eaton (23:08)

As this interaction is happening and he's becoming emotional and upset. Who all is around and seeing it and what is the reaction?

Kylie Burse (23:20)

I had a very good friend with me who is also in the local news and she knew all about the situation with him. She was one of the people that he was reaching out to and whatnot. So she was with me and she was the one who kind of clocked faster than I did. And we got inside and she's like, no, I'm not buying it. She goes, this is clearly a scam. Anyone could see that. So she's clocking it. Before I did, the director of the festival was there and the photographer, who are both men and quite physically much bigger than this person who was here and they were witnessing it and they came and they helped extricate me from the situation, get him to leave, and then again asked him to leave multiple times after that. So I think most of the people in my group were kind of unaware of what was happening, but the people who are running the event and whatnot were amazing in helping kind of diffuse that situation.

Hannah Smith (24:10)

When he pulled this up, you know, you and your friends saw that it wasn't just one sided him texting a number. There was a back and forth. He was texting someone and he said he believed that was you or was pretty convinced. It sounds like that that was you. And even when you said that's not me, that's not me, I don't know what you're talking about, he couldn't be convinced. It sounds like that that wasn't you.

Kylie Burse (24:37)

And that's what was scary when he said, I'm going to keep talking to you on the other number after he'd gone. I don't know how he found my cell phone number that time, but after he's texting me, I'm saying, please don't talk to me again. I won't text you here, but I'm going to talk to you on the other number. So it became very apparent that he did not believe. Maybe he thought I was lying in front of other people and whatnot. But there was no convincing him that it wasn't me.

Hannah Smith (25:00)

Yeah, we had an interview with someone recently, a professor in Canada who his identity has been used multiple times to scam people online. His picture and interesting, one of the things he said is that he's had women, it's mostly women, not all women that they've used to scam, you know, Scam with his photo. And then he'll have people reaching out to him, looking for answers. Right. Like, haven't we been in a relationship for two years? And he talked about the process of convincing someone that, no, you have not been talking to me. He was married at the time. He said, I've never heard of you. This is not me. Someone else is using my identity online. And sometimes people got it right away. Sometimes people could not be convinced and were combative and just refused to believe him, you know, for a lot of probably different reasons. But one of the things that probably was happening, I can guess, is that he goes back and he's texting this other person, and they're saying any number of excuses as to why you're acting this way. That's such a tricky position for you to be in, because it's like, what are you supposed to do? You don't want to keep interacting with this guy.

Kylie Burse (26:12)

Yeah. To hear that there is some kind of reasoning behind it and that someone else has experienced. Okay. You couldn't convince them to. Does make me feel a little less alone in that situation and lends a little bit of credibility. You're telling this person it's not me and not understanding why they're not believing it.

Hannah Smith (26:27)

Yeah, exactly. And then not knowing what they're capable of. So you did respond to him, you know, and said, please stop contacting me. Is that because you had already looked into what you needed in order to get a restraining order?

Pasha Eaton (26:41)

Yeah.

Kylie Burse (26:41)

Since it was escalating, especially with the point of my family, I had talked to a couple people in law enforcement about what next steps might be, and that was the advice that I was given, is you have to tell them, like, you have to have the proof of, do not contact me again. And that's the beginning of the restraining order process. So in Colorado, I can't speak for, you know, other states and whatnot, but this was just my experience going through it. For a temporary restraining order, you first go to the judge and you say, here is the evidence. Do you see cause for this? And then you have to serve them. And then there's a hearing, so I had to have in order to serve him his birthday. This is a stranger to me. A lot of times it's like domestic violence situations. And I kept telling people, this is a stranger. This is a viewer. I don't know who this person is. I don't have their address. And they go, well, you can't get a restraining order unless you figure all of that out. You're almost Becoming your own investigative person, using all of my resources to find him. And then eventually there is a court date. They are allowed to show up as well. And the way that the process works is you have a couple of different choices. You can go to a hearing and battle it out, or you can choose to do a temporary restraining order. And that is one year. There's no contact within that year, which the judge says is 90 something percent of the time it goes away. It's not on their permanent record. It's not something they have to disclose for housing or for work or anything like that.

Pasha Eaton (28:03)

Eventually, Kylie succeeded in having this man served. And In September of 2023, they both stood in a courtroom in front of a judge. This man had been spamming Kylie's email, her phone, her social media accounts, completely refusing to accept that he and Kylie were not in a relationship, that she did not know him, that she did not want to hear from him at all. And his behavior in this courtroom was, to say the least, pretty bizarre.

Kylie Burse (28:32)

He starts laughing to the judge and he's like, I don't know why I'm here. I have no reason to talk to this woman. This is all a big misunderstanding. Da, da, da, da, da. So I'm actually relieved at this point. The judge is like, well, then there shouldn't be any problems. And we agree to that temporary restraining order. And she makes it very clear we had extra stipulations in the restraining order about absolutely no social media contact. And she told him, if you even follow her, if you like any pictures, all of that is a violation of that restraining order. And there was also no coming to events. She says, if you show up at an event and she's there, you must leave. That's on you. And he's, yes, ma', am, absolutely. And again, it's just. He's laughing. He's like, there's no reason for me to ever speak to this woman again. Until two months later when he broke it more than 50 times.

Pasha Eaton (29:22)

And so at this point, do you feel like he's fully registering that you are not the person he's been talking to, that whoever he's talking to is not you at the time?

Kylie Burse (29:34)

Yeah, I thought he. I thought he had it. He. He's standing up in court.

Pasha Eaton (29:39)

Yeah.

Kylie Burse (29:39)

These are very real consequences for what's happening. And again, if we had just stuck to that temporary restraining order and he never contacted me again, he would have absolutely nothing to do with me. When it comes to the criminal justice system, he would be done. He'd be living his life. I'd be living my life. And so it wasn't until he broke it that I realized this man may not be well because he's not understanding the consequences of his actions at this point.

Hannah Smith (30:08)

Yeah. And I just can't help but wonder if he's still talking with that other person and if that other person is saying, oh, I have to do this for my public Persona, but you should reach out to me. I don't know. Or maybe. Maybe he's not talking with that other person. Maybe this is all sort of in his head. Like, I have no idea. But alarming either way. What kind of stuff was he saying to you when he broke the temporary restraining order?

Kylie Burse (30:33)

It was a new Instagram account because again, he's blocked. So it's a brand new one. He's going back through. He's liking photos and he's commenting nice things on all of the photos. He's responding to every story and whatnot. And the judge had told me, and this feels very uncomfortable. She said, even for a social media post, you have to call 911 and report it as a criminal report. And so I remember, like, I had all the screenshots and everything, and it was about two days, and finally I blocked him again. I was like, I'm stopping you. I'm saving you from yourself. Just stop. And the police came to my door and they're like, I don't know if this counts. And I'm showing him the restrainer. I'm like, the police judge said I had to do this. Like, this is part of the orders here. And that's when I went back in to get the permanent restraining order. He made all the comments in December of 2023, and then it was January 2024. We went back in for that permanent restraining order hearing.

Pasha Eaton (31:24)

Kylie attended the January 2024 hearing. Virtually for two years now, this man had been sending her unwanted messages referring to Kylie as his wife and just simply refusing to leave her alone. But when he showed up in court, Kylie said it was like watching this completely different person, that it almost felt like whiplash. He'd been aggressively reaching out to her online. He'd broken their temporary restraining order. And here he was, this seemingly calm, affable person. Kylie wondered how the judge might then see him.

Kylie Burse (31:56)

He was still, you know, very jovial and kind of joking with the judge. But there was definitely more of a. Well, I didn't say anything mean. There's nothing threatening. He's like, I didn't do anything wrong. And she just kept trying to tell him it doesn't matter. You have a restraining order. Like, you're not supposed to speak. We talked about this Is. You know, actually, it was a different judge. It was listed in there. So it was. It was stated in the restraining order that you cannot with social media and whatnot. So it became very different. And then at one point, he's kind of giving a spiel. I'm not speaking at all. I'm just muted on zoom and whatnot. And then he goes, you know, judge, I think she has a drinking problem. And I was like, what? And so then he's like. I'm like, are you trying to blame me for. For this?

Hannah Smith (32:44)

Like, it.

Kylie Burse (32:45)

It was just bizarre. And I was like. And once that final court interaction was when all sympathy and empathy that I had for this human was out the window, because I feel like I gave him a lot of chances. And I felt very badly that there was someone who was potentially scamming him. But then after I saw how manipulative he was in court, and first the laughing in the first time, and then turning it back on me, as if being stalked is somehow my fault for drinking. And I don't even know where that would. How that even plays any sort of relevance. But that was when the permanent restraining order was given, and I did not hear from him for a year and a half.

Pasha Eaton (33:24)

A year and a half. I mean, that's a long time. How many months or weeks into that year and a half did you feel like, okay, it's over, Or. Or did you.

Kylie Burse (33:34)

After three, four months, I thought, okay. But what I was worried about, and I've mentioned this a couple of times, was I was worried about further escalation. The fact that I took him to court. Is he mad at me? Is. Is there retaliation that he wants? So it definitely took several months for me to feel settled, and not constantly just kind of keeping an eye out for a new name and a new profile and whatnot. And then six months later, and for the next year, I felt really good and really safe, and I hadn't thought about it.

Pasha Eaton (34:04)

The more time that passed without Kylie being contacted by this man, the more it felt like maybe she'd gotten what she'd wanted all along, which was just to be left alone, that this might finally be over. But on the evening of September 11, 2025, just a couple of months before we ended up speaking with Kylie, the relief and sense of safety that she'd finally started to get back, it all went away again.

Kylie Burse (34:30)

And I pull into my garage, I back into it. And as I'm backing in, I had noticed a truck about to kind of pull by all the garages. And I didn't know, I don't know all of my neighbors on the alleyway, so I didn't think too much about it. I'm parking my car and I look up and a truck has pulled right in front of me and their window's down. And it takes about a half second before I realize who it is. And I just feel immediately sick. My stomach dropped. I remember thinking, oh, my God, if he has a weapon, you need to get down as quickly as possible. So I slowly reach up, hoping he can't, like, see my hands moving. And he's trying to talk to me. And I just closed my garage and I go inside. I go in through the back. When it comes to my garage and I'm in the house and I'm calling my neighbor. I'm trying to ask if they have cameras in the back. And that was when the doorbell started ringing and my dog runs over to the door. I look through the peephole and he's standing there, and I just go, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And my neighbor's like, hang up. Call 911. Call 911 right now. Hey, I'm Lindsay. Hydradenitis suppurativa.

Hannah Smith (35:46)

HS caused bumps and abscesses that made me feel embarrassed.

Kylie Burse (35:50)

I talked to my dermatologist and started a treatment that works for me.

Hannah Smith (35:54)

Cosentyx. I found relief. Cosentix Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe hydraulic. Don't use if allergic to Cosentyx. Get checked for TB before starting. Increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur like TB or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or planned to, or if IBD symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema, like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com you're stronger than HS.

Kylie Burse (36:37)

Ask your dermatologist about Cosentyx.

Pasha Eaton (36:40)

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. It's a refreshing way to shake things up. This sip and season, and only for a limited time. Sprite.

Hannah Smith (36:53)

Obey your thirst Spin Quest Social Casino. The presents are open and you're over the in laws. It's a perfect time to grab your phone and play spinquest.com with live dealer blackjack, craps and a ton of slots.

Kylie Burse (37:09)

And here's a great deal for the.

Hannah Smith (37:11)

Holiday, a thirty dollar coin pack for ten dollars. And if you're hearing this ad, you can play right now on Spin SpinQuest.com.

Kylie Burse (37:19)

SpinQuest is a free to play social casino. Visit SpinQuest.com for more details at CVS it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night. And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CBS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy snack. At cvs we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit us@cvs.com or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location.

Pasha Eaton (38:06)

In the neighborhood where Kylie lived at the time, the garages were all in the back of the home.

Kylie Burse (38:11)

So.

Pasha Eaton (38:12)

So you entered every garage through an alleyway and the front doors are of course in the front of the house. When Kylie went inside, she was for a moment hopeful that he had just driven away. But he'd actually just driven a couple of streets down and circled back to the front of her house and now he was standing at her door. We don't know how he found out where Kylie lived. Maybe he followed her home from work or was able to look up her address somehow. Either way, it was terrifying.

Kylie Burse (38:39)

I hang up, I call 911. I literally just grab my dog, grab my keys, run back out the back door. So he had gone all the way around to the front and he was standing on my front door. And again, I don't know if he has a weapon. I don't know what his intentions are. Why is he at my garage in my alley and then around the front door? And So I call 911 and I'm running and I actually hadn't had a panic attack since the last time I had had to deal with him. And I'm having a panic attack as I'm driving and 911 is saying, okay, where are I go, I don't know. I don't know where I'm going. I go, I have a restraining order against him and a permanent one. He's outside my front door. I don't know what to do. So they say you need to find a park or something. And I'm just in tears going, I don't know. He could be following me. I don't know. I don't want to stop my car. And finally they convince me to pull over to a park. And the officer comes, and she's. You know, we're talking, and she sent another officer to my house. So at this point, maybe 10, 15 minutes have gone by. And she goes, I'm sending an officer over. He's probably gone, but we'll check out the area, and then we can all go back to your house together. And I go, okay. He had been sitting out in front of the house in his truck. He had not left, so he had just been sitting there. And at this point, my permanent restraining order never got put into the system. And so that police officer is telling me, your temporary restraining order expired. We can't arrest this man. I don't know if you guys have had a panic attack, but for me, my hands are shaking. You know, you're trying to type and figure it out. And I'm going, no, no, no. You have to believe me. I have a permanent. Please don't let him leave. And I said, did he say why he's there? He told the police that he was trying to talk to someone at the station, and this was the address that came up for the station. So it's bizarre on every single level. The court does get back to me right away. I give them a lot of credit. And then I was able to find my own copy, because you do have to have a copy of that permanent restraining order. And so I. They were able to arrest him, and they told me at the time that it was for felony stalking, and he was heading to jail that night.

Pasha Eaton (40:41)

Wow. Just to make sure I'm tracking this correctly. So he shows up to your house and you manage to leave. You go to a park, an officer comes to where you are and says, an officer. To your home. But he is still at your home while you're at this park. And he tells that officer he was looking for the police station.

Kylie Burse (41:02)

Sorry, TV station.

Pasha Eaton (41:04)

TV station.

Hannah Smith (41:05)

TV station. Okay, I see.

Kylie Burse (41:07)

Okay. Sorry. That could be confusing.

Hannah Smith (41:09)

But he was clear that he was looking for you.

Kylie Burse (41:13)

Oh. I mean, I don't think you can interpret it any other way. My house is 700 square feet. There's not a television station studio inside of it.

Pasha Eaton (41:22)

But he didn't admit that to them. He was like, I'm looking for the station.

Kylie Burse (41:26)

Yeah. And I did not see him. I had a friend with me, and he was. He's like. He's laughing again. I've seen this man. He's very, very jovial, and, you know, he can kind of talk his way through a lot of things. So he was taken to jail that.

Hannah Smith (41:38)

Night, according to an article in the Denver Post. You know, he was arrested and charged with violating a protection order and notably did not get a stalking charge. Can you kind of walk us through that and what was the explanation given to you as to why he was charged with violating a protection order?

Kylie Burse (41:59)

So when I initially spoke to the detective and he explained we are asking for felony stalking charges and that he was still in jail and they had set bond very high on that charge, for it was 20,000 cash. And the detective told me he's like, I'm thrilled with this. This is good news. He's likely not getting out of jail. With him in jail, I felt very safe and like, he is in jail. I know exactly where he is. I'm not looking over my shoulder. And then I get a call the next week from the detective, and he said he heard back from the DA's office in Denver, and they were not pursuing felony stalking. They did not believe that it met the requirements. And he said the reason was that there was that year and a half gap in the stalking. So from January 2024 to September of 2025 was a year and a half. And that timeline was too big of a gap to be considered repeated because the big line here is that stocking has to be repeated for it to.

Pasha Eaton (42:54)

Be at this rate point in the state of Colorado. For something to be considered stalking, a person has to knowingly make a threat. And crucially, for Kylie's case, those threats have to happen repeatedly. And it was that word, repeatedly, that Kylie couldn't stop thinking about. This man had shown up again and again at events where he knew that she would be. He'd sent her inappropriate messages. He'd even violated a temporary restraining order. But then he went quiet for more than a year, raising the troubling question, did that long silence break this legal definition of repeatedly? Kylie told us that she spoke with multiple attorneys trying to get a straight answer to the same question. How much time can pass between contacts for it to still count as repeated harassment?

Kylie Burse (43:45)

I have the conversation with the da and it doesn't provide much clarity because I kept saying, hey, there's no timeline listed in the statute. And he's telling me there's something called common law practice and whatnot. And, you know, basically it's within the judge's discretion. But we don't think we can get the conviction. We want to get him on something. So we're going for the misdemeanor versus the felony. And I'm pushing back on him. I go, okay, well, just so I know, how long does this man have to wait to come at me again, to contact me again, to the point where you're going to go, oh, it's not stalking anymore, is it? A year and a half. He's like, I don't have an exact timeline, but a year and a half is too long. I go, is it here? And then he starts saying, I can't say, I can't say. And I'm pushing back. And finally he goes, it's a judgment call. And that was when I realized that this wasn't a me situation. If this was happening to me, they were probably doing this with other cases, which just broke my heart for all those other women and, of course, men who had dealt with this. But I wasn't able to win that argument. And a few days later, he was let out of jail and I went and moved into hotels.

Pasha Eaton (44:47)

That's mind blowing, because to me, it's like this guy has had a year and a half of not contacting you and still clearly not gotten over whatever he's grappling with. He's still thinking about you. Like, a year and a half. There are people who are in real relationships that are over it in a.

Hannah Smith (45:06)

Year and a half.

Pasha Eaton (45:07)

I mean, yeah, that's awful to think about it being a judgment call just because he had given you a little bit of a break.

Hannah Smith (45:15)

Yeah.

Kylie Burse (45:16)

And again, I don't know, like, I'm on TV every day. I have no idea how he's interacting and consuming any content that I'm putting out into the world.

Hannah Smith (45:25)

I don't know.

Kylie Burse (45:25)

I keep an eye out for new Instagram accounts and whatnot. But it's a public account. People can go and they can look at it. So I think it's almost scarier in a way that I didn't hear from him. And then it escalated to the point of following me home.

Hannah Smith (45:39)

Yeah, because for a year and a half, you didn't hear from him. And so then how do you know going forward to be comfortable or not? Because there's clearly he can go a long period of time not contacting you, and then we don't know what it is that makes him feel like he should go do this thing. Right. Like, come find your house. And changing that from a potential felony charge to a misdemeanor has real consequences. As you mentioned, the Bail. You know, his bail got less than, like, $1,500, and so he was able to get out. And then I think also potential sentencing is dramatically lower based on my.

Kylie Burse (46:14)

My brief Googling and speaking with lawyers. Yeah, it's very likely he wouldn't face jail time for a misdemeanor. He still might, but it would be more like 100 days or something like that. Yeah, but I'm not positive on the specifics.

Hannah Smith (46:27)

Where did that leave you? Like, how did you feel learning this and then also learning that he was released and is out in the world?

Kylie Burse (46:34)

I felt very helpless. I felt like I did everything I was supposed to do. I did the restraining order path. I documented everything. I have put so much time in my life into doing what the court system is telling me to do correctly. And then I felt like it was failing me and that there was just nothing I could do about it because I had tried to fight. I had Talked to other DAs, I had talked like I had lawyers fighting for me, and I wasn't getting anywhere.

Pasha Eaton (47:00)

Learning that this man had been released while continuing to speak with lawyers and fight for her own personal safety. It's all been exhausting. As long as he's out in the world, there's nothing to assure Kylie that he won't come after her again. And each time he contacts her, it seems to be an escalation, which makes it really hard to move on.

Kylie Burse (47:20)

It changed my perspective on everything. Once your safety is threatened, your whole world just shifts in perspective. I found other housing. I was like, I can't be looking over my shoulder sleeping here. And so I had a lot of relief in that, which was nice. At work, I felt safe. We have a lot of security systems in place and whatnot, so that was good. But it's interesting because now it's been about two months, and every day that I wake up, I look back and I go, whoa. You were in a really dark place and you didn't realize it. I can't describe it as anything other than, like, forgive me, I know a meteorologist. I felt like I was walking around through fog, trying to navigate my life where nothing seemed quite clear. People would ask me something, and I was, like, slow to respond. I felt like I just couldn't find myself again. And at the time, you're like, okay. Like, yeah, something weird just happened. You're kind of just living through it. Two months later, looking back on the mental state that I was in, is astonishing how horrified and terrified I was on a regular basis.

Hannah Smith (48:33)

This is directly after when he came to your house that you're talking about that period of time.

Kylie Burse (48:38)

This is when they let him out of jail. I felt safe when he was in jail. When he's in jail, I know where he is. That's an easy thing to feel safe with. It was when they let him out of jail, and I'm the one who just put him in jail. It's his fault. But again, I'm just. I'm terrified. I'm looking over my shoulder for his truck everywhere I go. And I can't describe it other than you feel physically sick and you feel extremely exhausted. I remember just being so tired and, you know, unable to, like, get out of bed on, like, a Saturday after. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, my body won't move. Like, what's happening to me? This is very odd. And I was like, I work early mornings. You know, I'm kind of writing everything off at this point. But again, two months later, looking back on it, I have a lot of. Lot of empathy for myself and, like, what I was going through when I didn't even realize how bad it was.

Pasha Eaton (49:30)

Of course, now, looking back on her experience, Kylie understands that even though this man never explicitly threatened her with violence or threatened her life, his behavior, his messages, it was all still a threat to her safety. And this is the gray area that stalking victims sometimes find themselves in. How many messages is too many messages? Should I wait to report this to law enforcement until things escalate? And to what point?

Kylie Burse (49:59)

It's so incredibly violating in a way that is hard to put into words, because I think that. And I've talked to people who have dealt with emotional abuse in relationships, and I can kind of. In my mind, it's similar when you're explaining it, because if you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, you go, well, no one hit me. No one's hit me.

Pasha Eaton (50:19)

So.

Kylie Burse (50:19)

And they're telling me that I'm wrong. And there's that trying to wrap your mind around something is wrong when you're looking at, oh, I love you, my wife and, you know, have great trip and whatnot. And it's obsessive, but it's not overtly threatening. I think that's why I waited so long to pursue that initial restraining order, because you're telling yourself, well, they're not threatening me. They're not doing anything mean. They're not showing up with a gun or, you know, saying that they're going to hurt me. They just. They seem to love me, and they're obsessed. I just can't describe it in any other way than it's a complete mind book trying to wrap your head around this person who's obsessed with you. You feel so violated. Your sense of safety is completely gone, and no one's made an overt threat to you. But you know there's a danger, and you know there's a threat. You know it in your gut and in everything in your body.

Pasha Eaton (51:14)

Kylie decided to go public with her story. She spoke with the Denver Post, who published an article about her experience. She wanted to raise awareness about how horrible it is to be the victim of a stalker and how helpless you can feel even when you pursue all the legal options available to try to protect yourself. Kylie did this in part because she knows she's not alone. And since going public, she's received hundreds and hundreds of emails from people who say they are experiencing the same thing. This is both comforting and deeply unsettling.

Kylie Burse (51:47)

And I will say I felt like I had a secondary wave of emotional trauma after the article came out, because I'm hearing from women, and I had been hopeful, like, maybe this will stop at some point. But when you're hearing from women and they're saying, it's been years, it's been five years, it's been 10 years, and I just went, oh, my gosh, this might never end until he dies. And this might be my life looking over my shoulder for a long time. All because I do the weather on the local news, and this person thought we had something that wasn't there.

Hannah Smith (52:20)

I don't know.

Kylie Burse (52:20)

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that. And if I ever feel safe again.

Pasha Eaton (52:26)

Yeah. And like, you are a local news meteorologist, but still, you're really a part of the community that you're speaking to every morning. And so, like, it's just making me think about even the way that we live in la. Like, a celebrity walks down the street and there could be a camera in their face, and that's allowed. And, like, it's expected almost. Well, if you're a public figure and people are gonna come out of the woodwork, but it's like, where is the line? And obviously not everyone who is a victim of stalking is in the public eye at all. But if I had been in your shoes, I probably would have rationalized it as, like, well, I'm on TV and they feel like they know me and try to just push it away. And also just. I think that the way the justice system reacts when we try to pursue something like a restraining order, it sounds like you, the first time, got a judge that understood that this guy needed some pretty strict rules in place and understood that you had no association with him. This was in his head. And that's not always the case. And then you think about, like, well, if then the justice system kind of minimizes it.

Hannah Smith (53:40)

What do you do?

Pasha Eaton (53:42)

Mentally, even, or emotionally? You're like, am I. Am I making this up?

Kylie Burse (53:46)

Yeah. I was actually warned by a DA in a different county in Colorado, and they said, you know, he goes, it's important that you're coming forward with this story. He goes, the unfortunate flip side is that a lot of people are going to see this and feel discouraged and not report. And that broke my heart. And he said, you know, that's. That doesn't mean don't do it. It's just, you're experiencing what a lot of people have experienced.

Hannah Smith (54:11)

And that.

Kylie Burse (54:11)

That, I think, is why I wanted to share my story. You know, I. Granted, I do not think I'm a celebrity on any level. I am on the local news. Most of my life is extremely normal, very, very boring. I tell people the weather and I love what I do. But I knew that I had just enough of a platform to hopefully have people in the Justice Department. And I didn't. I didn't really have a lot of hope that it would change my case, but maybe going forward, they would take another woman's case or another person's case seriously in this situation. And I am still working with the DA's office. They have told me that they are investigating and that they are not ruling out additional charges. So I am still hopeful. I am hopeful that if I can give them all the info that they need, which I know is there, that this would hopefully be an easy case for them and whatnot.

Pasha Eaton (55:01)

How has this changed the way that you interact with people who innocently approach you at the store or wherever in town and just want to meet you?

Kylie Burse (55:12)

It hasn't changed that, to be honest, I'm in a safe public space and people are kind of. It hasn't changed that. I'm still very grateful. And in fact, a lot of people have come up and said, I am so sorry that has happened to you. We love watching you every morning. We're so grateful. We hope that this doesn't make you want to leave your job and whatnot. So I would say that it hasn't in that way. It has just made me much more hyper aware of if something's in my gut telling me, okay, this person's a little bit off, I need to get out of that situation immediately or I need to let someone know or get help and whatnot. And then my. My threshold for just tolerance within my Instagram, DMS or, you know, whatever it is, we're not even letting things get beyond like, that's a little bit creepy. You're done. That's weird. You're done. You're not even having access to me where I let it get to the point at least. I hope.

Pasha Eaton (56:00)

I really appreciate you making time for us. I know you've been very busy since your story blew up and I am just really grateful that you made the time.

Kylie Burse (56:10)

Yeah, no, and I. I definitely took a step back from media in the few days after because it was very overwhelming and I just knew that this was going to be a safe conversation. And so I just appreciate you guys. And yeah, I'm hoping for some normalcy again soon. I'm really looking forward to that. So, you know, and I hope that other women out there, if this has happened to you, that you don't feel as alone. It's awful and it's extremely isolating in a very lonely way. So just know that you're not alone.

Hannah Smith (56:40)

Yeah. We hope that things become normal for you too and that you don't have to deal with this in the future. And thank you so much for coming on our podcast and trusting us to tell your story. It means a lot.

Kylie Burse (56:53)

Yeah. Well, thank you for advocating for other women and other people within the criminal justice system that are fighting for what they hopefully deserve and can get some justice.

Hannah Smith (57:05)

This is our last episode of 2025 and that's kind of hard to believe.

Pasha Eaton (57:10)

Yeah, I can't wrap my head around it. I'm so glad that we were able to speak with Kylie because I think her story and her reasons for telling it really speak to the mission of the show.

Hannah Smith (57:21)

I couldn't agree more.

Pasha Eaton (57:22)

The fact that Kylie is using her platform to speak about this and has already made national news, I think really speaks to the power of storytelling. And you know, you and I have talked about this so many times, but especially in developing this show is true crime can mean such a range of things. And we wanted to have this like mission driven platform for these stories. And yeah, Kylie's mission was to in part to help people take this seriously.

Hannah Smith (57:55)

Yeah. Which is awesome. I mean, the fact that she has this platform as a public person just helps get the word out about her experience. And there's so many people that this is happening to who don't have a public platform to be able to speak about it. So I love that Kylie's doing that. You know, I was looking at the website stopstalkingus.com, which is a nonprofit organization, and they have some statistics on their website. One of them, which is pretty shocking, says about one in six women and one in 17 men have experienced stalking in their lifetimes.

Pasha Eaton (58:32)

That is a surprising number when you think about it. Like, I think also, at least in maybe public perception in the media, it's like, well, what is stalking? You know? And I think part of the problem here is there seem to be a lot of varied opinions, but in my opinion, after listening to Kylie's story and other people who have been victims of stalking, stalking is taking away someone's sense of safety. And whether that's unwanted messages or showing up at their home, maybe there is still an escalation that has to be quantified legally. But you're taking away someone's sense of personal safety, and that's huge.

Hannah Smith (59:13)

Yeah. I mean, what is stalking? Is such a good question. There's, like, how it's defined by the law, and then, like, what it feels like if you are experiencing being stalked. Right.

Pasha Eaton (59:23)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (59:23)

And it's one of those things that I feel like is sort of hard to define. And Kylie talked about this a little bit in the interview, and there's a Denver Post article that she mentioned. And in that article, they talk about this definition of stalking being in Colorado, specifically, when a person knowingly and repeatedly follows, approaches, contacts, or communicates with another person in a way that causes that person serious emotional distress. So that's a pretty good definition. But she also talked about how, like, the words like, repeatedly is kind of vague, and then how do you define that? Right. And it's this complicated thing that we see a lot of trying to put someone's experience into a law that hopefully will protect victims, but it still doesn't even come close to describing what that actually is like for a victim. Like, that feeling you're talking about of someone encroaching on your personal space and freedom, honestly, is what it feels like. It would feel so invasive to me.

Pasha Eaton (60:28)

Yeah. And. And obviously, men can also be victims of stalking. But from my perspective as a woman, and I think probably a lot of people have shared this experience. You know, growing up in the media, there's sort of this common trope of, like, a guy that's really persistent, he's chasing you, and that ends up being the guy. And it's like Kylie's situation differs from that. This was never someone she had any relationship with at all. But I think that sometimes that can sort of twist people's way of thinking about it. And you have to wonder, like, to what degree is that infiltrating, how seriously this is taken or not taken? Yeah.

Hannah Smith (61:09)

It's such a problematic trope or outlook on what's appropriate behavior. Right. This idea that, oh, this guy likes you, he's mean to you even. It's like, no, we got to evolve past that.

Pasha Eaton (61:22)

Right. Like, he must be flirting with me. I feel uncomfortable.

Hannah Smith (61:26)

Yeah.

Pasha Eaton (61:27)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (61:27)

If you feel uncomfortable, I know it's not a good sign.

Pasha Eaton (61:30)

When I first moved to la, actually, I went on maybe like two dates with this person who he was nice. It wasn't a match. I told him that and all was well. And then he asked me out again. And I. I don't remember what I said, but I remember that I said no. And then he started emailing me and there was some time that passed in between, maybe it was like a couple of weeks, and I would kind of respond and say, oh, you know, no, thank you. And then he would email again and they were kind of joking, like, I know you're dying to hear from me. And honestly, I think that in his case, like, overall was well intentioned, but at a certain point, I still remember having to tell him, like, I don't want to hear from you. Like, now I feel kind of weird and I feel bad even saying this and I shouldn't, but, like, I don't want to hear from you. And to his credit, I never heard from him again.

Hannah Smith (62:27)

Well, that's good.

Pasha Eaton (62:29)

Yeah. But, like, I remember he was, you know, someone who was, like, highly educated and he was great in person. He was very kind, but still didn't seem to get that. If someone says they don't want to go out with you, maybe stop asking.

Hannah Smith (62:45)

Yeah, yeah, that should be a pretty clear thing.

Pasha Eaton (62:47)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (62:49)

You know, one thing that came to mind that we didn't talk about in the episode, but that later I thought of that there's a tiny little sliver of crossover with this story and Sweet Bobby.

Pasha Eaton (63:02)

Yep.

Hannah Smith (63:03)

I kept thinking about Sweet Bobby, which I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with and have watched the great Netflix documentary Sweet Bobby. It was about this woman, Kierat, who's a British radio presenter. So similar also had like, this, you know, public Persona. And she believed for like nine years or something that she was in an online distance, like, relationship with this guy named Bobby, who was a real person that she kind of knew or like they had similar friends online. Or something. You know, spoiler alert, wasn't Bobby. But she was chatting with this person she thought was Bobby, messaging all this stuff, and even saw Bobby in person a couple of times.

Pasha Eaton (63:43)

Oh, yeah. That one moment when she sees him.

Hannah Smith (63:46)

At the club and he sort of, like, doesn't recognize her. But then she's like, well, that was weird. But then when she's typing and texting with who she thinks is Bobby later, of course he has all the right excuses to make her think that this is normal, that he wouldn't recognize her or acknowledge her in public. Right. And we have no idea if that's actually what is going on with the guy that has been stalking Kylie. Like, it could be a situation where he just made all of this up in his head. Like, we have no idea. But the fact that there was a text message back and forth that he showed her that he's texting somebody, you know, he could have fabricated that as well. Like, we don't know. But it does seem like someone has been impersonating her. And I'm not trying to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. He's had many chances to, like, snap out of it. And he's been to court.

Pasha Eaton (64:37)

He's been told the truth by her.

Hannah Smith (64:39)

He's been told the truth. But it does make me think about how strong when people are. So when they're scammed like that and they're convinced that they're in love and they're talking to someone. Like, how strong of a grip that can get on you.

Pasha Eaton (64:53)

Well, yeah. I mean, even in our conversation with Alex Kouros, who. His photos had been used to scam so many people. And he said in some cases, even when he would have to tell people, hey, I'm not who you are being told I am. Someone's using my photos. None of this communication was with me. The person that you're looking at, he said they would then start to sort of fall in love with him.

Hannah Smith (65:16)

Yes. I had forgotten about that, because they.

Pasha Eaton (65:19)

Were sort of used to interacting with him, looking at him like they're sitting across from the person now or on the phone with the person now that they know from the pictures.

Hannah Smith (65:29)

Yeah. And there's something happening psychologically where even though they know the truth, it's like their brain still wants them to fall in love with this person. Right.

Pasha Eaton (65:39)

And kind of thinks that there's a chance that will happen, but it's like, no. And in this case, I mean, this person had been. Yeah. Corresponding with someone who's impersonating Kylie. But then during this moment on the hike, he gets his phone messages out. He's told, like, very clearly, nope, that's not me. I'm not interested. I think you've been scammed. And at that point, you have to draw a line for yourself, even if your heart is broken over this.

Hannah Smith (66:10)

Well, that's where I think about sweet Bobby and the grip that scammers can have on someone. Because I can just imagine the scammer saying, oh, well, I just couldn't acknowledge it in public. But believe me, of course I know I've been communicating with you, and I love you and could spend this whole thing. But you would think that going to court, like, having the law involved, having a restraining order filed against you would be enough to wake you up. But maybe there's some deeper hold that this person has on him. I don't know.

Pasha Eaton (66:43)

Yeah. And certainly not to excuse it.

Hannah Smith (66:46)

No, it makes it even scarier, because it's like, if this guy truly is convinced that she's secretly still in a relationship with him, how in the world is Kylie like that? To me, it would feel like you have no power. Like, it would be so scary that. I mean, the truth is, we never have that much power to influence what people believe. You know, they can believe wild, untrue things. But it's scary to think that he's. He was so convinced of this thing. That's not true. And then you have no idea what he's believing and what he's gonna do. That's terrifying.

Pasha Eaton (67:22)

Yeah. I mean, showing up at someone's home who has no relationship with you and who had a restraining order against you is baffling. And I don't know what's going on in his head, but, like, regardless, if he has no respect for boundaries, even after the legal system is involved. Yeah, very scary. And I'm so glad Kylie's talking about it 100%.

Hannah Smith (67:48)

I agree. One of the things she talked about is this difference between what she thought he was gonna be charged with and what he ended up being charged with. Yeah, she was hoping that he would get charged with a felony stalking charge. Instead, he was discharged with a violation of a protective order. And I was reading about the difference of those. In Colorado, a Class 1 misdemeanor, there's Class 1 and Class 2, but Class 1 violation of a protective order, you can get up to 364 days in jail. So less than a year. Just a day. Less than a year would be the maximum sentence. Whereas if he got a felony stalking charge, he could get up to five years in prison. So those are really big differences.

Pasha Eaton (68:32)

Yeah. And Kylie said in our conversation with her while he was in prison briefly, during his first arrest, she felt safe. Like, that was the time that she felt safe. And so, you know, you're thinking about someone's loss of freedom. Okay, this person who's been convicted of stalking. But you also have to think of it in terms of, like, Kylie being able to live her life and feel safe in her body, at her home. And if he's in prison less than a year, that's the amount of time she gets to feel safe.

Hannah Smith (69:05)

Yeah. One of the reasons that was given to her, that she communicated to us was given to her for not bringing a felony stalking charge was this idea that we had just talked about earlier. The definition of stalking in the Colorado law. Right. Repeatedly. And there was some worry that because he hadn't contacted her for a year and a half, they would have a hard time proving in court that he had repeatedly harassed and stalked her, even though he'd done it repeatedly over the course of years. So that was sort of like, what are we talking about here?

Pasha Eaton (69:41)

And to me, it's so counterintuitive because it's like if a year and a half can go by and that person still has you at the forefront of their mind. That is what I think is so scary about it all.

Hannah Smith (69:54)

So scary. And there was a mention in this same article that a staff attorney at Project Safeguard, which is a nonprofit that helps victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, and human trafficking, talks about that it's actually not uncommon for victims of stalking to experience long breaks or long lulls in the stalking behavior. And so this one and a half year period is not that shocking to her. She sees that a lot. She also says that lull that can be common has an effect of making the victim begin to feel like they will never be safe, because no matter how much time passes, they worry that this person could come back around, which is horrible.

Pasha Eaton (70:39)

Yeah. And it's just so unfair. And one of the articles I was reading about Kylie's case and her issue with this is, I think the prosecutor used the word judgment call when they were speaking about, well, what is he going to be charged with? It's a judgment call. And I think that just perfectly encapsulates the issue with the way that we prosecute stalking. It's. It's just a judgment call, but it's, to me, I think, pretty measurable. There are ways to see if someone is being stalked. Are they contacting you? When you've asked them not to, do you feel unsafe? Are they ignoring their protection orders or the day that they're lifted, showing back up at your home? I mean, these are, like, pretty cut and dry.

Hannah Smith (71:21)

Yeah.

Pasha Eaton (71:22)

Signs to me.

Hannah Smith (71:23)

Totally. The fact that it's this judgment call feels so subjective. Really.

Pasha Eaton (71:29)

So subjective. Like, let's hope you get a prosecutor that cares.

Hannah Smith (71:32)

Yeah. And believes you and understands the violent nature of being stalked and doesn't just say, well, what's the big deal? You know?

Pasha Eaton (71:42)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (71:43)

And in that same article from the Denver Post, not the one you're talking about, but it made me think of this, what you just said. The reporter looked at a statewide review and showed that Denver prosecutors bring felony stalking charges less frequently than prosecutors in other counties that have, like, similar population. So, you know, we don't know all the factors that go into that, but to me, it really speaks to that judgment call aspect of, you know, bringing charges against people. Yeah.

Pasha Eaton (72:11)

It's like, well, I guess they're being judged a little differently there.

Hannah Smith (72:15)

Yeah, totally. Stop Stalking US is a 501C3. It was founded by a filmmaker, performer, and stalking victim, Lily Baldwin, after she went public with her stalking story. Lily has been stalked by a man she doesn't know for the past 15 years, a harrowing experience that she recounted in her Peabody nominated Audible podcast series, Stories of the Stalked. Stop Stalking Us offers victims assistance and allows them a place to tell their stories. If you would like to donate to Stop Stalking Us, you can go to their website@www.stop stalking us.com.

Pasha Eaton (72:49)

We also just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone who listened to the Knife this year. Hannah and I have just put so much into the show and every time we hear from you guys, it really means so much to us. So thank you for your support.

Hannah Smith (73:06)

Thank you so much. And we will be back in your ears in 2026. Happy New Year.

Pasha Eaton (73:10)

Happy New Year. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram heknifepodcast or blueskyenifepodcast.

Hannah Smith (73:23)

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.

Pasha Eaton (73:28)

And me, Pasha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.

Hannah Smith (73:32)

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

Pasha Eaton (73:35)

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Hannah Smith (73:37)

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Pasha Eaton (73:40)

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Hannah Smith (73:41)

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

Kylie Burse (73:53)

At cvs. It matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night, and we want everyone to feel welcome and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit us@cvs.com or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location. Janice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz.

Hannah Smith (74:32)

We host the podcast Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

Kylie Burse (74:39)

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

Pasha Eaton (74:43)

The big thing about working at tech.

Kylie Burse (74:44)

Is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie.

Pasha Eaton (74:47)

That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change.

Hannah Smith (74:51)

So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Si usas la frase Persona precabida vale pordos. The Colgate Total Active Prevention System is for you. Corona pasta dental reformulada un se pigo derintes y nova.

Kylie Burse (75:13)

In just six weeks starting from week one.

Hannah Smith (75:15)

Compared to a non antibacterial fluoride toothpaste and flat trim toothbrush, helping you prevent oral health problems like cavities and gingivitis before they start. Compralo and shop punto Colgate, punto com diagonal todo and be dentist ready.