The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

Episode: Gone without a Warrant

Hosts: Hannah Smith & Patia Eaton
Date: October 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode tells the harrowing story of Sarah Perkins and Josh Sebi, two loving parents who suddenly found themselves under suspicion of child abuse after bringing their infant to the ER with a high fever in July 2022. The episode explores how a chance medical finding—a healed rib fracture—sparked a cascade of events: a child welfare investigation, hospital interrogations, police involvement, the traumatic removal of their children without a court order, and a prolonged legal battle. Through in-depth, empathic interviews, hosts Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton illuminate the deeply personal impact of systemic failures in child welfare and call attention to larger issues of due process, systemic bias, and family trauma.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Introduction: The Nightmare Begins

• Setting & People: Sarah and Josh are interviewed by hosts Hannah and Patia. They recount what should have been a happy, busy period, welcoming a second child and balancing careers, family, and a documentary project.
• Inciting Incident (07:02-08:16):
  • After their infant displays concerning symptoms and a high fever, Sarah takes him to the ER at Newton Wellesley Hospital.
  • The baby is diagnosed with RSV, but a chest X-ray also reveals a healing rib fracture.
  • Quote:
    • “The x-ray confirmed that your child has a rib fracture…that’s opened a child welfare investigation. There’s a lot of tests that we have to run now to meet our legal liability. We have to run them regardless of your consent.”
      — Sarah Perkins (09:56)

2. The Investigation & Hospital Trauma

• Testing Overload: Medical staff begin exhaustive testing on the infant, including a full skeletal survey and MRI, without clear communication or explicit consent. The experience is exhausting and traumatizing for both mother and baby.
  • Quote:
    • “So I’m holding my little three month old infant in these really contorted positions and he’s screaming and the techs are like behind this literal iron curtain, you know, so that they don’t get the radiation…right? And my baby, he screams so much that he loses his voice...”
      — Sarah Perkins (12:06)
• Communication Failure:
  • Initially, neither parent understands the gravity of being under investigation. Hospital staff avoid using the term "child abuse," making Sarah and Josh naively optimistic that their ordeal will quickly resolve.

3. Social Work & Escalation

• DCF Involvement (18:06):
  • Social worker Jill Sachs conducts an interrogation, immediately assuming a posture of suspicion. Her questions and tone are experienced as accusatory and condescending.
  • Quote:
    • “She comes in and says, ‘When we’re looking for non accidental trauma, we’re looking for trauma that was non accidental. Do you know what that means?’ …it’s just this super condescending, aggressive, I think pretty snide interrogation…”
      — Sarah Perkins (18:06)
• Every Action Interpreted as Guilt:
  • Normal parental behavior—such as crying during a blood draw for her screaming child—is documented as possibly suspicious.

4. Imminent Threat: Police Involvement & Fear of Removal

• Legal Limbo (24:00):
  • Sarah is advised by her father-in-law (a lawyer) to get out of the hospital to avoid having her baby taken. Police are stationed at the door, and Sarah is told she cannot legally leave.
  • Quote:
    • “The nurse said, ‘Don’t worry about it, but you’re legally not allowed to leave.’…it was just people making calls, you know, like whatever lawyer we could find...”
      — Sarah Perkins (24:00)

5. Temporary Relief & Ultimate Devastation: Nighttime Removal

• Brief Reprieve & "Safety Plan" (26:32):
  • Their pediatrician intervenes, supporting them as competent parents. The hospital discharges the child under a safety plan. The family enjoys one day of relief.
  • Nighttime Removal (30:39):
    • In a traumatic late-night visit, police and DCF arrive with no warrant or paperwork and eventually remove both children from the home, threatening to break down the door otherwise.
    • Quote (Heartbreaking):
      • “I remember rubbing his back and saying, my boy, you get to go on a car ride to a new and an exciting place. You’re going to make new friends and mom and dad are going to come and find you as soon as we can…But he was scared. And he woke up just screaming and he screamed the whole time, saying, ‘I don’t want to go. Don’t make me go. I want to go in our car. Come with me. Mommy, Daddy, don’t make me go.’”
        — Sarah Perkins (34:42)

6. The Aftermath: Advocacy, Legal Maze & Family Trauma

• Family Mobilizes (39:34):
  • Extended family springs into action, citing policy that requires kinship placement in warrantless removals; children eventually placed with grandparents after 24 hours of uncertainty.
  • Legal Confusion:
    • Despite vast resources (family of lawyers, education, support), the system is labyrinthine. It takes a month for a custody hearing, during which time the parents only get unusually liberal visitation due to national attention and advocacy (helped by a viral Twitter thread).
  • Cause of Injury Discovered:
    • The rib fracture is traced to a benign accident—grandmother gripping the baby firmly to keep him from falling out of a car seat.
  • Ongoing Trauma:
    • The older child develops severe night terrors linked to the removal, recurring on the anniversary of the event, highlighting the lasting psychological impact.

7. Systemic Critique & Push for Reform

• Systemic Overreach & Lack of Due Process:
  • 96% of search and seizures by child welfare officials nationally are conducted without a warrant or judicial oversight (53:17).
  • The system disproportionately affects low-income, Black, and Brown families. The trauma extends well beyond this family’s experience (48:40).
  • Quote:
    • “These low resource families who are doing their best, trying to keep up with these additional rocks that we’re throwing at them when they’re already treading water.”
      — Sarah Perkins (48:40)
• Proposed Reforms & Litigation:
  • Their lawsuits aim to restrict warrantless removals and challenge the problematic incentives for child abuse pediatricians, who are often effectively acting as prosecutors.
  • Mandatory reporting reforms discussed: the need to distinguish signs of poverty (neglect) from abuse so families get resources, not punishment (50:23).
  • Quote:
    • “Demanding that you no longer struggle with poverty isn’t actually going to help the child, isn’t going to help the family…changing what gets reported…would make a meaningful difference.”
      — Sarah Perkins (50:23)

8. Qualified Immunity & Legal Precedent

• Recent Legal Milestone (64:03):
  • The judge rules that involved social workers and officers are not entitled to qualified immunity, potentially setting a significant precedent.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On parental helplessness:

  • “You feel like you’re betraying the trust of your child. They’re looking at a room full of adults and they’re looking at you to save them because they don’t understand what’s happening.”
    — Patia Eaton (61:18)

• On the core issue for families nationwide:

  • “People will take care of their kids. People who can’t take care of themselves take care of their kids…and they do it when everything is stacked against them.”
    — Sarah Perkins (55:56)

• On systemic outrage:

  • “It is the most un-American thing I’ve ever heard. No one should be able to just beat your door down and take your children.”
    — Hannah Smith (63:08)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hospital visit and discovery of rib fracture: 07:02–09:56
• Full skeletal survey and MRI/trauma: 12:06–14:34
• Social worker interrogation: 18:06–22:09
• Emotional toll, Sarah’s breakdown, suspicion: 22:29–24:00
• Advice to “get out”/police by the door: 24:00–26:09
• Temporary safety plan and relief: 26:32–28:49
• Nighttime removal by police/DCF: 30:39–36:58
• Urgent advocacy, eventual kinship placement: 39:34–41:06
• Legal confusion and struggle: 41:23–44:45
• Discovery of the accidental cause: 44:45–45:47
• Child’s lasting trauma: 46:03–48:25
• Systemic critique, neglect vs. abuse: 50:23–53:08
• Lawsuit and qualified immunity discussion: 64:03–66:24

Tone & Language

• The interview is intimate, reflective, and empathetic.
• Hosts reinforce the human aspect behind systemic failures, frequently pausing to relate their own experiences or reactions as parents.
• The language remains clear and accessible, even when navigating complex legal issues.

Conclusion & Broader Impact

The episode closes by connecting Sarah and Josh's story to the experiences of thousands of other families, especially those without similar privilege or resources. Their activism and legal work aim to prevent trauma like theirs, making due process, family preservation, and compassion central to child welfare intervention.
Final thoughts:

• “As much as we can support that, we’ll be saving children. I think that’s how we save children.”
  — Sarah Perkins (55:56)

Additional Resources

• Sarah and Josh’s documentary company: Matters Media
• For more on reporting reform: [Referenced ProPublica study]
• For those impacted: episode encourages contacting the show with stories or to seek help.

This episode provides a deeply personal, unflinching look at how the system’s blunt tools for child protection can traumatize even the most stable families—and offers a compelling blueprint for change.