Patia Eaton (2:53)

The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.

April Scales (3:01)

This smoke is blaring up. This really is happening. So I immediately run to the neighbor's house to get them to call the fire department. It was immediate try to undo what had just happened.

Patia Eaton (3:28)

Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eaton.

Hannah Smith (3:30)

I'm Hannah Smith. This week we speak with April scales. In 1992, at just 15 years old, April was pregnant, scared, and facing pressure from every direction. Feeling trapped, she made a desperate decision, A decision that ended in tragedy and a murder conviction.

Patia Eaton (3:47)

Now, after years in prison, April joins us to reflect on the day that changed her life forever and what her future looks like. Now.

Hannah Smith (3:54)

Let's get into the inter foreign.

Patia Eaton (3:59)

We'd love to start off with you just introducing yourself, maybe telling us a little bit about where you're from and your childhood.

April Scales (4:07)

Hello. Thank you for having me. My name is April Barbara Scales. I grew up in the rural mountains of North Carolina in a county called Wilkes county, which is in the foothills. I was raised by my grandparents due to having teenage parents. My mother and father had a history of substance use disorder, incarceration, going back and forth. My grandparents raised me as a result, hoping that my mother would eventually snap into motherhood, but she never did, so she started going to prison. And so I grew up seeing the inside of a prison, which didn't give me a pass for anything. If anything, it was a deterrent. I had a pretty decent upbringing. I mean, I didn't want for anything. I was an honor roll student, kind of an introvert, you know, very scholastic, very curious, very curious child. Things were good until about the age of 14. I got a summer job and I met a guy and he brought me a single yellow rose. And that was just the most endearing thing.

Patia Eaton (5:13)

Tell us a little bit about him. What did you know about him when you first met and how old was he?

April Scales (5:21)

His name was Clinton Johnson. His nickname was Cl. He was 15 years older than me. He was 29. I was 14. He was legally separated. He had two children. And I just. I don't know. I just fell in love with him. We fell in love with one another, and because of the age difference, we automatically knew that it wasn't supposed to be. He was white, which was frowned upon. Probably still is in Wilkes county because it's very rural. It's kind of like you live there, you work there, you die there. Everyone knows everyone, so that kind of knows it.

Hannah Smith (5:55)

And so having a interracial relationship, Is that what you're referring to?

April Scales (5:59)

That's frowned upon? Yes.

Hannah Smith (6:01)

April's summer job was connected with her high school, what she described as a jobs training program. This was the summer of 1990, and she was 14 years old. Through the program, she was working with some. Someone who knew Clinton or cl, which is how he came to be around the school and how he met April. Looking back, it's clear he was the one who pursued her.

April Scales (6:27)

He saw me. He came up to me and told me to come to his car the next day. He said he had something for me. I didn't know him prior to that.

Patia Eaton (6:35)

Given that you were aware of sort of the social norms and the way that the age difference and interracial relationship would be poorly received, but what did you yourself make of the age difference?

April Scales (6:50)

I didn't really think that much of the age difference. My mother got married when she was 19. She stayed married like six years. The guy was 42. My stepmother is nine years older than my father. My playmates were pretty much my grandparents because I didn't really socialize a lot as a child. So all I knew was adults more so than children in my life.

Hannah Smith (7:12)

And what do you think about it now, looking back?

April Scales (7:15)

Well, a teenager and an adult, I mean, that's unheard of. That's automatic justice involvement. There was definitely some grooming. Of course, I was unaware of that, but that's what it was.

Patia Eaton (7:29)

What you reflect on now as grooming, what was it then, in the moment when you were 15?

April Scales (7:37)

It was attention, it was an attraction. It was something that was gravitating toward me. Clearly I was missing something. My father had a history of being back and forth, of incarceration in and out my life. Even though I was raised by grandparents, I knew who my biological parents were. But still, girls want to gravitate, seems to be toward their father. So maybe I was missing that father figure, and that's where he filled the gaps in.

Hannah Smith (8:04)

In North Carolina, the age of consent is 16, and it has been since the early 1900s. But when April was a teenager, legality wasn't top of mind. She was excited. She felt like she was falling in love. She wasn't really thinking about the fact that CL at age 29, was committing a crime by being with her. What she did understand instinctively was that her grandparents would never approve. They had legally adopted her. So even though she called them her grandparents, they were, for all intents and purposes, also her parents. Her biological mother was in and out of prison and struggled with a substance Use disorder. April's grandparents were the adults in her life who were invested in her well being and her future. And there was no world in which they would accept her being in a relationship with a grown man. And so she kept Ciel a secret.

April Scales (8:59)

We would call one another, we would talk a lot on the phone, we would sneak around. My mother would sometimes check me out of school with him in the car. So she would kind of assist us sneaking around, but we would give her money. So, you know, like I said, she was involved in the substance use disorder. So anything to kind of get what she needed, she would kind of give a little to get a little.

Patia Eaton (9:24)

I'm curious, just given the, you know, we're talking about the early 90s in a rural southern community, you know, what sort of sex education, if any, was available to you at that time in your life?

April Scales (9:41)

Well, I mean, I was always scholastic. They taught it in school. So I was never blinded by anything. I didn't question how anything worked. I was already having sex, sneaking around. Before I had gotten with him, I had tried it out probably a couple years ahead of that, maybe like 12 or so. And I think that just had to do with a sense of belonging to. I just needed something to do. I like the attention. That's all it was. You know, you go to school, you hang out, you sit on the phone, sneak around, you have sex, you go to the movies. The sneaking around part, we both knew that. Looking back, I knew I had to sneak around just because it was a guy, just because it was the boyfriend age, you know, and a lot of kids aren't allowed to have a boyfriend until usually 16 or so. It wasn't just the fact that I knew I had to sneak around. It was the age, it was the race. It was a whole lot of things to me. It was just that I knew that it was wrong to have a boyfriend. All the other things evolved over time that added to it not being okay.

Hannah Smith (10:52)

I'm curious about his reasons for having to sneak around because I wonder if he was also trying to hide that he was dating someone so young. Did he ever talk about that?

April Scales (11:01)

No, he never talked about it. And I think it may be subconsciously because looking back, he didn't talk about it. I think he maybe made it look like it was more me, that I was doing more wrong than him. I had to hide. I had to sneak around. Even though, yes, this is a grown man, but yeah, here I am having to hide for all of my reasons. Yet his reasons were never disclosed. And that goes into the grooming that goes into people knowing what they're doing, what they're planning to do.

Hannah Smith (11:34)

Because deep down, I have to imagine he knew that he needed to hide this, that people would not look on this kindly.

April Scales (11:41)

I mean, think about it. We couldn't go to a bar. I wasn't old enough to vote, old enough to drive. It's not like we could go out to a club or anything.

Hannah Smith (11:49)

It's hard to keep a secret in a small town. Eventually someone is going to catch on and start talking. And that's exactly what happened with April and Cloth. Word got back to April's grandparents that she'd been seen around town with a man twice her age.

April Scales (12:05)

We probably were able to hide it for a little over a year before the town started to whisper. They never met him, but they started hearing things and they started suspecting that I was dating this guy who was twice my age. And of course they asked me. I lied my grandfather when you asked me, and I was like, no, of course not. My grandmother began to just be more nosy, more controlling, more inquisitive, and just trying to figure out what was going on, trying to put the pieces together.

Patia Eaton (12:35)

When your grandmother would try to talk about this with you or ask questions, did it seem like her concern was the age difference, the fact that he was white or something else?

April Scales (12:49)

Well, both. I mean, her concerns were valid. She had valid concerns, no doubt. But to me, it didn't seem that way because I was 14.

Hannah Smith (12:58)

By the time rumors were flying about April and CL, April had just realized that she was pregnant. She said they hardly ever used contraception.

Patia Eaton (13:10)

What was your understanding about sex leading to pregnancy? Was it like you understood that if you have sex unprotected, it could absolutely lead to pregnancy?

April Scales (13:21)

It wasn't anything that I really thought about. It was, I was having fun, I was in love. It was a relationship. It was sexual. So the fact that just lay out the plan of if I have unprotected sex, I'll get pregnant. There was no thought process involved. There was no dots to put together.

Patia Eaton (13:43)

Yeah. It's not surprising that as a teenage girl that would be the perspective. I'm curious about Clinton's perspective as a 29 year old man who already had two children.

April Scales (13:56)

Yeah.

Patia Eaton (13:57)

Did he ever raise any concerns about it?

April Scales (14:00)

Never. Not once.

Patia Eaton (14:03)

So when did you realize I'm pregnant?

April Scales (14:06)

I just had a feeling like after this particular time, it just said, you know, I'm pregnant to myself. You know, I just had a different feeling after this particular time that we had sex.

Patia Eaton (14:18)

When you told Clinton, hey, I think I might be pregnant, what was his reaction to that?

April Scales (14:24)

It was actually not, let's get rid of it, let's hide it. It was like, okay, you know, we'll just add it to the family.

Patia Eaton (14:31)

And did you ever consider telling your grandparents about the pregnancy?

April Scales (14:36)

No, never considered it whatsoever. Because they had already. By the time the town had begun to whisper and just things evolved, I mean, they were definitely dead set against it, as they should have been. My mother had me when she was 16. She wanted to have an abortion. They didn't think that she was old enough to make those decisions. My grandparents were now in their 60s, almost 70s or so. They said they were too old to raise any more kids. I didn't want them to raise my child. I wanted to be the parent that I didn't have. So that was the whole plan. If I'm pregnant, I'm keeping it, I'm going to raise it, I'm going to have the life that I didn't have as far as the two parent household and all of this. So I wouldn't have told them once they said, you know, if you're pregnant, you got two options. We will either have him arrested for statutory rape or force you to have an abortion. The suspicions became more strong. My grandmother would start to sneak in, look at my sanitary pads, look to see how many I had used. When you're raised by someone, when you're in that household, you know what you know.

Hannah Smith (15:47)

April says she never admitted to her grandparents that she was pregnant, but it became clear that her grandmother strongly suspected it. She also made her opinion known on the subject. Her grandparents were very against April having a baby at her age.

April Scales (16:03)

So it was just a matter of you can't keep it because it's going to be one more thing onto us. They felt like it was going to fall back on them. So that's why they were hell bent on we're having him locked up or you're having an abortion because we just can't take of another child at this age.

Hannah Smith (16:23)

And had you heard them talk about that decision of your mom when she was 16 wanting an abortion and your grandparents kind of convincing her not to? What had they sort of talked to you about that?

April Scales (16:37)

I knew that story and I think subconsciously I always felt unwanted. Even though I had a good upbringing, I belonged the fact that my biological mother didn't want me, didn't want to raise me for whatever reason, I felt unwanted. And so a part of me wanted to attach to whatever wanted to Connect with me.

Hannah Smith (16:59)

That makes sense.

April Scales (17:00)

Which happened to be him at the time.

Hannah Smith (17:03)

And then had your grandparents laid out any kind of hopes or dreams for you, like, as this grandchild that they're raising? Was there a different life path that they sort of verbalized for you? Like, did they want you to go to college?

April Scales (17:17)

I was always a really good student, so whatever I wanted to be, the sky was the limit.

Hannah Smith (17:22)

Okay.

April Scales (17:23)

You know, I do feel like I would have continued to educate myself and go to college and have a successful life, you know, had this not happened. It was kind of just expected. It was one of those unwritten rules.

Patia Eaton (17:37)

And so it sounds like just so I'm understanding correctly, you don't tell your grandparents, but your grandmother in particular has this sense that you may be pregnant. She's starting to go through your things, see what's missing and what's not. That might indicate that, you know, you're no longer getting your period. And then she and your grandfather both are making these sort of statements that are like, hey, if this were to be the case, Clinton would be arrested for statutory rape and we would not allow you to raise this child. And so they are making those comments, right?

April Scales (18:14)

Yes.

Patia Eaton (18:14)

Okay. I just wanted to make sure that wasn't something you were anticipating they were saying, but something they actually said, no,

April Scales (18:20)

you will have an abortion and. Or we will have him arrested for statutory rape. Those were the two options. So now I'm 15. I really invested in this man, in this relationship, now this baby, and someone wants to stand in the way of that, this life that I feel like I can make for myself can make a new. The life, you know, they have. Like I said, the two parent household, the picket fence, everything that my biological mother didn't give me. Now, it's not that I wasn't provided for. It's not that I didn't have the picket fence. It's just in a different circumstance because it was my grandparents. They weren't my parents that raised me.

Patia Eaton (18:59)

Yeah, I think every child has the right to long for their mother. I think that's a very normal reaction, no matter what kind of life you have with your grandparents. You know, that sounds very natural to me. And so do you then tell Clinton about these comments that your grandparents have made?

April Scales (19:20)

Yeah, at this point, I feel like he's all I got. You know, I mean, my friends from school still knew what was going on, just these two girls. But other than that, I mean, he was like everything. He's all that I had to cling on to.

Patia Eaton (19:35)

And what were his reactions to those comments about you will have an abortion or Clinton will be arrested for statutory rape?

April Scales (19:45)

Well, not anything in particular, but over time the discussions were we have to do something, like we need to kind of get them off our backs is how the discussion began to go.

Hannah Smith (20:04)

Had you ever thought or talked with him about just like running away together or like you leaving your grandparents and going to live with him or something?

April Scales (20:12)

Yeah, I packed a bag once and left it on the back porch and my grandfather found it. It wasn't even a very well thought process, thought out plan. It was just a change of clothes in a bag. Once again, that is so naive being at that age.

Patia Eaton (20:29)

I think most of us are naive at that age.

April Scales (20:33)

Yeah, you need more to change your clothes to get you through.

Patia Eaton (20:38)

And so when did the conversation about, you know, getting your grandparents off your back, so to speak, like how did that plan develop?

April Scales (20:48)

I'd say it probably happened a few months before the actual incident happened. It was just to be. They were more so my grandfather was a man, a few words. So it was. My grandmother was just more vocal and it was always seemed like she was just constantly nagging. I was always upset every day, you know, and when I was upset, that made him upset. And it was just like, we've got to do something, we've got to scare them, get them off our back.

Hannah Smith (21:19)

April was 15 years old at this point and she was really angry with her grandparents. April felt like a grown up and she wanted to make her own decisions. She was in love with Ciel and she wanted to have this baby and raise it with him and she didn't want her grandparents interfering with that. But there was no world in which her grandparents, who were her legal guardians and parents would ever agree to that. And the fact that April even believed that there was some fairytale path forward in which she could build this happy family with a much older man who was committing a crime speaks to just how young she really was. Even her plan to run away reveals that it was a half packed bag left in plain sight for her grandparents to find. It was an idea, but never going to be a reality. Regardless, she felt desperate and out of options. Backed into a corner. April was about to make a decision that she would immediately regret that would affect the rest of her life and land her in prison.

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April Scales (22:43)

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Hannah Smith (25:47)

It was CL April's 29 year old boyfriend, who first said to April they needed a plan to get April's grandparents off their backs. And it was CL who came up with the plan. The plan was to light April's grandparents home on fire. It was CL who brought a can of gasoline over to April's house.

April Scales (26:11)

We're supposed to set the house on fire and they're supposed to rush out like a Lifetime movie. And everyone like, he's on the lawn, I'm gonna be on the lawn. Everyone's just so, oh, I'm glad everything is okay. And it's gonna be like one of those freak things that kind of just brings everyone together like, oh, I'm glad you came, you were there to help out my granddaughter, you know, that kind of thing. But that totally is not the way it went.

Hannah Smith (26:39)

I think it's important for us to really try to understand where your mindset was at the time. And like, I keep going back to that. You were 15. Yeah, but I think that's so important because even the way you describe that, this idea that you have in your head As a 15 year old, I'm going to just set the house on fire. They're going to get out and suddenly they're going to have their minds changed and they're going to embrace me and my boyfriend. And in your 15 year old mind, you know, you're still going to light their home on fire, which is going to cause damage. Was that a real concept to you?

April Scales (27:10)

No. Okay, so let's go back to that statement. I'm setting their house on fire. That's my home also. That's where I grew up and I raised. So I didn't even think about doing damage to where I'm staying. Like, this is my home. I'm about to do damage to my stuff. You know, teenager, you know, your stuff is like, that's, you know, your posters that you have on the wall, your everything you have in place. So I wasn't thinking of destroying my home, my stuff. It was only a matter of scaring them, to make them step back a little bit and say, hey, you know, maybe he's not so bad.

Patia Eaton (27:47)

Yeah, it's interesting to think about like, you know, a 15 year old's mind in that moment. And I think myself at 15, or maybe a lot of teenagers in general where it's really hard to conceive of like outcomes, outcomes and how long your future can really be. And everything feels like it's just right in front of you and if you just get through this one thing, then you're on the other side of all your problems. But life is just much longer and more complicated than that. So did you then get any of your belongings out of the house in case this happened or you just.

April Scales (28:25)

No, not in my pajamas. I did this in some shorty pajamas. This was September 4th, so it's warm, white pair of shorty pajamas with polka dots, won't forget them.

Hannah Smith (28:40)

And what time of day or night is this?

April Scales (28:43)

About 9ish o'. Clock.

Patia Eaton (28:45)

And where is Clinton?

April Scales (28:47)

He's on his way over. He didn't live far, maybe a seven minute drive.

Patia Eaton (28:53)

So it's about nine o' clock at night, Clinton's on his way over and you're just wearing your pajamas?

April Scales (28:59)

Yeah. Cause we're looking like it's about to go to bed and you know, just decided tonight is the night.

Patia Eaton (29:05)

Was there a phone call where you decided that?

April Scales (29:08)

Maybe. Maybe a phone call right before.

Hannah Smith (29:11)

To be clear, CL had brought the gasoline over days before. And then on September 4, they mutually decided that this was the day April was to set the house on fire. CL was not there, but again, the whole thing had started as his idea. April didn't think about the possibility of her belongings getting damaged and she certainly did not imagine anyone getting hurt. What she thought would happen is that there would be a little bit of smoke, just enough to scare her grandparents into rushing out of the house onto the lawn. And then she would be there waiting for them on the lawn and they would be so relieved that everything was okay, that they would have this magical change of heart. They would accept her 29 year old boyfriend Ciel, and they would celebrate her pregnancy and they could all live happily ever after. This is truly how her 15 year old brain anticipated the events would play out. And so she lit the house on

April Scales (30:09)

fire, poured the gasoline down the hall, struck the match, went outside and here. These flames are insane. I said I can't believe this.

Hannah Smith (30:21)

You were just like surprised that the fire was so big so quickly?

April Scales (30:26)

I think I was just surprised at the fire in general. Like you do it and then a lot of times you see these fireworks, you might do something and they don't even, they feel so loud it doesn't even happen. But here it is. This is really happening. This smoke is blaring up. This really is happening. So I immediately run to the neighbor's house to get them to call the fire department and say, my house is on fire. So I got them to call the fire department. And then they came over. Fire departments not far, you know, maybe three minutes away. Like I said, everything is rural. It's right there at your fingertips. And so then the trickle down effect comes. But yeah, it was immediate. Try to undo what had just happened.

Patia Eaton (31:09)

Where were your grandparents when you were pouring the gasoline?

April Scales (31:13)

I think my grandmother was helping my grandfather just get ready for bed. Not that either one were non ambulatory or whatever, it was just that he was a little older. So they were in the bathroom, I think.

Patia Eaton (31:26)

So you run to your neighbor's house and you say, hey, call the fire department. My house is on fire. Clinton's on his way over. Where are you after telling your neighbors to make that phone call?

April Scales (31:42)

I'm there at the neighbor's house and then I go back to the house. My grandmother is out, the fire department's already there. So she's out of the house and they're assessing her. After that, I guess they just take her. There was a lot of commotion, you know, after that.

Hannah Smith (31:59)

And then does Clinton arrive?

April Scales (32:01)

Yeah, like I said, he didn't live far. Across the bridge, so to speak.

Hannah Smith (32:06)

And what did that look like when he arrived? Did you guys talk to each other?

April Scales (32:09)

He came up to me and I guess like any other relationship would be, it would be one of those lean on, kind of put your arm around your mates kind of scenario, like comforting you? Yes.

Patia Eaton (32:21)

And did you guys talk about sort of the story that you would tell if anyone asked about the fire?

April Scales (32:28)

No, we didn't think. Me, I didn't think. I can only say I thought it was going to play out. Just the scenario that I mentioned, it was going to be okay. It was not going to get this bad. Nobody was supposed to die. Nothing was going to happen. There might be a little damage done, maybe a little smoke damage. Everything will be okay and everyone will get along and be happily ever after. Never once that I think it was ever going to end in anyone's death or in anything that bad.

Hannah Smith (33:04)

Yeah. And so at what point did you realize that that wasn't happening and that, you know, were you wondering where your grandparents were?

April Scales (33:13)

I found out later. I had an aunt, my father's sister lived not far. I went to stay with her. And about 2 o' clock that morning, maybe 1 or 2 o', clock, the deputy came and started to question me. And then he took me down to the police station with other people with sbi, with state detective, with arson specialists, just trying to get all the information.

Patia Eaton (33:41)

What did they ask you and what did you tell them, I think they

April Scales (33:45)

asked, you know, the usual, do you know what happened? I don't even know if they ever really come out, said, did you do it? You know, was anybody around? When they start asking questions, they already know the answers. And they didn't even question me with an adult present. There was no court, counselor, juvenile or guardian, president. And I was 15 at this time. And you have all these big law enforcement type people around me. And they said that they were my friends, their opinion of me wouldn't change. They said that I was free to leave. All of this came out later. They said, so how, at 15, how did I know that I was free to leave a police station? And where would I have gone on top of that?

Patia Eaton (34:26)

Right? Yeah. So when they were asking you questions, what was your response?

April Scales (34:31)

It was pretty much just not saying a lot. And if it was a question that remotely against me, of course it was a no. I don't know, I didn't do it. Then I would ask where he was. And then I don't think he was locked up initially, but he got locked up later on that night or that day or something, so. And then I was worried about him, worried about what they were going to ask him, what was going to happen.

Hannah Smith (34:57)

At any point, were you wondering or did you ask where your grandparents were?

April Scales (35:02)

They had told me.

Hannah Smith (35:03)

What did they tell you?

April Scales (35:06)

One of them came and told me that she was in a hospital. They had taken her to the Winston Joseph Burn Center. My grandfather died of smoke inhalation in the house. My grandmother got out and died eight days later from pneumonia.

Hannah Smith (35:22)

And I imagine it's probably like, not pleasant at all to revisit. But I'm just curious, you know, how that felt to you when you found that out.

April Scales (35:31)

I actually, I think I asked if I could go see her, like I wanted to go see my grandmother. And of course, you know, they politely said no. I don't remember exactly how they worded it, but it was definitely a no. So I was shocked. I was sad. And then on top of not having him, I didn't have them. So I'm completely alone in my mind at this point. It's just me and this unborn child.

Patia Eaton (36:00)

How many months pregnant were you when you were arrested?

April Scales (36:04)

That's about two months.

Hannah Smith (36:06)

April said that she was taken in for questioning around 2am and officially arrested around 4 or 5 in the morning. She did not have an adult advocate present or an attorney when she was questioned. She would later find out that Clinton or Cl was also arrested. Her grandfather, Aaron Died in the fire, and her grandmother Lily would die a few days later. And now April was looking at navigating a legal system without a trusted adult advocate advocate on her side. She was given a guardian ad litem and a court appointed attorney.

April Scales (36:40)

I was in a juvenile facility at first because of my age, but because of the severity of the crime. Once they deemed me going to be tried as an adult, they moved me to the main prison in Raleigh in a place called safekeeping. Because I hadn't gone to court yet, the court appointed attorney. But where I was from Wilkes to Raleigh, before they redid the roads, was probably about close, about 2 hours, 15 minutes, maybe 2 hours 30 minutes. I spent 334 days in safekeeping prior to trial. He came to visit me twice because they said it was a hardship on him to come and visit me. He comes and brings me a plea bargain, asking me to plead guilty to two counts of first degree murder and the other charges which consisted of conspiracy and arson. He would get them thrown out.

Patia Eaton (37:41)

You know, at that age, what did you make of everything you were hearing? I know it was a long time ago, but do you feel like you were able to process?

April Scales (37:50)

Oh, of course not. Of course not. I mean, you know, I had seen the inside of a courtroom like I mentioned before, but not to that degree. Having a larceny charge is much different than a murder charge. The severity of it. These lives are lost. So not only am I having to now navigate through the court system by myself, I'm also completely alone. I'm grieving the death of my parents. I'm grieving and not understanding the lack of communication that I'm having with this boyfriend that I have. And now I have this child that's growing inside of me. My hormones are changing, my body is changing. Have anyone to talk to about all this. So all of this is going on at the age of 15.

Hannah Smith (38:38)

It's a lot.

April Scales (38:39)

Yeah, it was a lot. Yeah.

Hannah Smith (38:41)

April spent nearly 11 months in a facility waiting to find out what would happen to her. And she says her attorney only visited her three times. The reason he gave for his absence was that April had been moved to a facility nearly two hours from Raleigh. And the reason she was moved was because even though she was just 15, she was being charged, charged as an adult. So she was moved to an adult facility. At the time, this was becoming more and more common to charge minors as adults. In the 1990s, nearly every state in the US passed laws making it easier to try minors as adults. Sentences got longer and harsher this was driven in part by a nationwide panic that young people were becoming violent and more dangerous. A term was even coined super predator. That theory has since been widely discredited and heavily criticized as racist. But the consequences didn't just disappear. Once someone is sent to prison, it's incredibly hard to undo. And to this day, there are many people still incarcerated for crimes they committed as minors during that era. It was now 1992, and April was still waiting for her court date when she gave birth.

April Scales (39:59)

About two weeks before your due date, you have to stay in the infirmary. And I had this older roommate, and I just started hurting April 19th. I had had false contractions before that. And once again, being naive, my due date was April 25th. So I had some gas and Braxton Hicks prior to that. So anything other than that, I was like, blowing it off, off. And it was something different about this morning. I was just walking. It was April 19, Sunday morning. I was walking up down the hall, and the lady said, honey, I think I said, it's just gas. I don't. I don't want to bother anybody. And I didn't want to have to be shackled, transported to the hospital. And then you have to sit around all the free world people, and here you are shackled, and everybody looking at you. Anytime you go out to the doctor, that's what it looks like. And as much as people don't like to stare, they stare at. And so I just didn't feel like going through that and being pregnant this particular day. So I'm walking in, this lady said, honey, I think this gas is getting regular. I said, oh, it's nothing. So they hooked me up to the machines, and surely enough, my contractions are five minutes apart. And these two guards, they take you out shackled, normally, waist chain, But I was too big for the waist chain. So my legs are shackled, my hands are shackled. So I'm trying to get to the car, and I'm in labor, and so I'm having to stop and they can't. Yeah, it's like as if you could

Hannah Smith (41:23)

run away at that moment. What are we talking about?

April Scales (41:29)

So I get in the car and take me to the hospital and get out, and I'm trying to walk, and I just refuse anything related to me looking even worse than possible. I don't want the wheelchair. So I'm trying to walk down the hall, and I'm having to stop and get me hooked up. So now my contractions are less than five minutes apart. I'm 3cm dilated and they're like, ma', am, you about to have this baby? We left about 8 o' clock that morning. It was too close to me giving birth to get any pain medicine, so they said he would have been born sleepy. So they hooked me up and I'm pushing and of course, these two guards, which. The two guards that took me out were not the worst of the two guards, thankfully, they were some that had been around for a while, so they were more of a motherly type and had probably been out and seen I don't know how many pregnancies and procedures as far as hospitals are concerned. And 10:52 that morning, just in late? Yeah. From 8 o' clock we leave to 10:52, that's how long it took. So, wow, Easter Sunday morning.

Patia Eaton (42:37)

You must have really tolerated a lot of labor on your own.

April Scales (42:42)

Apparently so. I thought it was gas because the midwife told me I was due to 25th. They're the doctors, they're supposed to know what they're talking about.

Patia Eaton (42:50)

You're 15, you're like, I'm due the 25th. I'm giving birth the 25th.

April Scales (42:54)

If it's not the 25th, it's just gas. Don't bother me.

Patia Eaton (42:58)

And so then when someone is in prison and gives birth, you know, did you get to spend any time with your baby back then?

April Scales (43:08)

If you didn't have a C section or any complications, you could stay on the third day. So I say two days, and on the third day, the person who was a family friend at the time came to get him, but now it's basically outpatient. You have it, if nothing's going on, they send you right back the next day. Don't give you anything but some cabbage leaves.

Patia Eaton (43:29)

What is the cabbage leaf?

April Scales (43:31)

To dry the milk up. Like there's no. Yeah, because you can't nurse. I didn't start because I knew I wasn't going to be able to.

Hannah Smith (43:40)

So you were not able to bring your baby back with you?

April Scales (43:44)

No.

Hannah Smith (43:44)

You're immediately separated?

April Scales (43:47)

Immediately, yes. Like I said, it was two and a half days, you know, that first day at 10:52. So I had that day and then the next day, and then the third day, about 8 o', clock, she was coming to get him and I was going back as if nothing ever happened. So now I get the waist chain now because my stomach is down. So you just giving birth. And here I am, waist chain shackle, shuffling back to where I came from.

Patia Eaton (44:13)

Yeah. I mean, it's impossible to imagine what that would feel like, especially at such a young age.

April Scales (44:19)

Yeah, very empty, very alone. Because at least there's nothing else. I had this little baby inside me to talk to.

Patia Eaton (44:26)

Yeah, yeah. Then you go on to be sentenced after this.

April Scales (44:31)

Yes, this is in August.

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Hannah Smith (48:11)

Eventually, April's attorney did visit her and he brought her a plea deal. April says that when her attorney told her to take the deal, she took the deal.

April Scales (48:21)

So he brought me a plea. He said that if I went to court to trial, it would be a waste of the taxpayer's time and money. So he coerced me, convinced me to sign this plea bargain, pleading guilty to two counts of first degree murder. Now that's how it's worded. That's what said. So when I go to court, it takes a couple of days. We have some character witnesses for the state. The two friends that I mentioned, my little high school friends, they were trying to be my character witness and my stepmom, they were for me. And here comes the state. There were some people, I think my grandfather's nephew, gosh, maybe one other person, of course, tried to paint me as this spoiled brat that had everything that was just, you know, had everything she needed. How could this happen? And then the DA says, it's not Burger King. She shouldn't have a two for one deal. Never forget that. So the judge decided to sentence me to life. And then he says, and at the exploration of this, another life sentence. So he sentenced me to two consecutive life terms, which in essence, they didn't want me to get out ever.

Hannah Smith (49:38)

How did that feel? Sitting there hearing that?

April Scales (49:41)

When he said the first life sentence, I understood and then the next one. So in my mind I was like, how am I gonna die and come back? You know, I understood the word consecutive. And I was just thinking, how am I gonna die and come back? So, you know, that part I Didn't really get. That's, you know, when they stack them on, they have no intention for you ever to see the light of day.

Hannah Smith (50:02)

But it kind of speaks to again like, like the understanding of a 15 year old. It doesn't really sound like the weight of like what a real entire lifetime spent in prison would mean versus this question of like, how does that work? Two lifetimes, you know.

April Scales (50:17)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (50:17)

How am I going to die and come back? It's like, still feels like it's not really real.

April Scales (50:23)

Yeah. Because like I said, if they just said life, we understand that. Everyone understands. Okay, life. And then they said, and then life after the exploration of the next. And that's how it's worded. And I was thinking, how is that possible?

Hannah Smith (50:37)

Yeah.

April Scales (50:37)

What does that mean?

Hannah Smith (50:39)

And back. Whenever your attorney said to plead guilty to these two charges, was there any conversation with him about what that sentencing option might look like?

April Scales (50:50)

No, they didn't word it as an open plea. He just worded it as, if you plead guilty to this, we'll get rid of the rest of these. Which he said could have led up to additional life sentences. That was up to the judge's discretion to run them consecutively or concurrently. That was totally up to the judge. That was never discussed prior to.

Patia Eaton (51:10)

How long were these meetings that you had with him, the attorney?

April Scales (51:14)

No more than an hour or so. Like I said, he. In 334 days, the 15 year old now sentenced to a life sentence facing two counts of first grade murder. They even said that the SBI or whatever booked the trial courts before even kind of threatened me with the death penalty, you know, before all that. So they wanted to make sure they laid out all the harsh severities that could happen. Never once trying to address the root of the issue. Never the psychological evaluation that was denied, the change of venue, everything happened in the same county where everything that was denied, motion to suppress the statement that they obtained with only adults present, with no court counselor, legal guardian present, was denied. All of those motions were denied. Yeah.

Patia Eaton (52:05)

And then to think that, you know, I'm not an attorney, but I would imagine at least now and like today you have a 15 year old who's been groomed and coerced by a man twice her age. To me, who sort of plants this idea, was that ever even something you and your attorney discussed?

April Scales (52:30)

Never. Never. And that seems like it's one of the more obvious things. Well, not only think of it this way, was I coerced by my boyfriend? I was then coerced by the attorney. Because it would have been a hardship on him. He would have had to put more effort into putting this trial together.

Hannah Smith (52:47)

Yeah.

Patia Eaton (52:49)

How many years did you then spend in prison? And when did things begin to change?

April Scales (52:55)

I spent a total of 31 and a half years and six days in prison. I would say about seven years prior to my release. Awareness of juveniles being excessively sentenced began to be aware. There was a law that came in called Raise the Age, which didn't directly affect me, but once again it brought awareness of these 16, 17 year olds should not be made to be sentenced under the same guidelines that you would an adult. So that kind of inadvertently started bringing some awareness as people started hearing about my case, because I would write anyone, I would write any attorney, any social media, anything, especially like about the last three years before I got out out, different podcasts, different interviews, just like I said, anyone. And as they knew someone, they would reach out to that someone. And so the advocates begin to kind of all band together and say, listen, we want this girl out. You know, she needs a chance. About a year before I got out, Governor Cooper put in a committee called the Juvenile Sentencing Review Board that started reviewing the cases of those of us who were under the age of 18. And there was about 300 or so

Hannah Smith (54:15)

of us in 2021. Then North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper convened a committee. This was following a recommendation from his Task Force for Racial Equity and Criminal Justice. At the time. The governor is quoted to have said, developments in science continue to show fundamental differences between juvenile and adult minds. The committee was tasked with reviewing cases of people who'd been tried as adults when they were still minors and who'd served at least 20 years of their cent sentences. It also focused in part on rehabilitation. They looked at whether individuals had taken significant steps to change during their time in prison.

April Scales (54:54)

And out of that, a long vetting process, which you looked at the infractions, you looked at the home plan, the accomplishments, the things that you had done, what would you do upon your release, and all of these things coupled together. There were three of us released March 24, 2022. I had served the longest.

Hannah Smith (55:14)

I did want to ask what happened those years in prison as far as who was taking care of your son, or were you able to see him or stay in contact with him at all?

April Scales (55:26)

No, there was a program in place. You move around as the population increases, prisons grow, and we're shifted around. But I was in the same spot for 18 and a half years. And with that, there's a program at the main prison called Match and Match stands for mothers in the their children. Now the woman that raised my son, for the most part I was able to communicate with him. She had other children and other responsibilities and other mess as life happens. So there was a period of time, about four years, I wasn't able to hear from him. But still that's better than some who never are able to talk to their children. So for the most part I was able to see and communicate and talk with him. When he turned 18, he came and, and he's been by my side ever since with that, when he turned 18, he joined the military and he's also been connected with them.

Hannah Smith (56:24)

I imagine that was very difficult. Were you able to place him with someone that you knew?

April Scales (56:29)

Yeah, the only one of my mother's friends that didn't get into trouble. I had known her all my life.

Patia Eaton (56:35)

And so this is the person that raised your son?

April Scales (56:38)

Yes.

Hannah Smith (56:39)

You grew up, you know, went from a teenager to an adult in prison. Were you able to, you know, continue your education during that time or what did you end up focusing on while you were there that kind of helped you get through?

April Scales (56:51)

I wanted to be a mom, you know, I wanted to be a hands on mom regardless of how long that took me. And I felt like education was one of the ways. If I could get inside of their head, if I could understand my case, then perhaps I would be able to get a release. The educational opportunities are few and far between. And if you have a long sentence, they won't allow you to go to school because they said you'll be wasting the taxpayers time and money because you'll never be released to use the education. So a lot of the college courses, they don't allow people with long sentences to get the free education. So you either have to get some sponsors from the outside, save up your money and you know, a lot of people don't have people from the outside. I didn't have anybody from the outside either. I was only 15. So I just kind of would get money here and there. People might hear about my case, you know, send me 20 bucks here and there. And then over time I began to get some people in my life, but initially it was just me. 97. There was an attorney who tried to handle a habeas corpus case of mine. She couldn't, but she always believed in my case. She always wanted to do something if there was ever anything that a law change had turned about. And we're still friends to this day. I actually spent the first 92 days of my free world Life at her house.

Hannah Smith (58:14)

House.

April Scales (58:14)

So she opened her home to me, and, you know, she's been the best friend to me ever. I knew her before, whenever her career was just starting, before her children were born, before she was married, and she's still around. And there's another lady I met along the way, I've known now about. About 19 years.

Patia Eaton (58:33)

Wow. I love that people on the outside were finding your case and feeling compelled and reaching out to you. Yeah, just offering hope is so huge in that position.

April Scales (58:44)

It's valuable.

Patia Eaton (58:46)

Yeah. And so you pursued an education, even staring down two consecutive life sentences.

April Scales (58:52)

Yeah, I would just pick up on what I could along the way. And once I got out, I went to the community college to finish my associate's degree because I always wanted to finish school. School was always my thing. Education was something that they could never take away from me. And once again, it was my armor. It was my armor against the staff mistreat us. I read their policy. You know, they tried to do something that was illegal, I would throw it back at them. I mean, it was always, you know, go ask April. And then I got a paralegal certification. I was able to obtain that. And I just wanted to help my case as well as, you know, those around me. So I thought if I got in their heads, if I think like them, then I could think my way out. I got out in 22. August of that year, I started school, finished my associate by 23 and. And November of last year, I walked with my Bachelor of Science in Criminal justice. That's what I went on to do. I went online and finished up my degree, and I chose criminal justice.

Patia Eaton (59:55)

That's amazing.

April Scales (59:57)

I'm now in school for social work. My current role is a peer support specialist. That's someone with lived experience that works alongside of people that are on their recovery journey from mental health, substance use disorder, past justice involvement, things of that nature. Just getting them back on track. So that's. That's the work that I do. Absolutely love it. I mean, you meet people where they are and you help them along the way. You know, you don't. You don't judge. You just try to help them and get them past their mess.

Hannah Smith (60:26)

Yeah. That's so great.

Patia Eaton (60:28)

What is your relationship with your son like today?

April Scales (60:32)

Colt and I are very close. He thinks he's my dad, so he tells me what I should do, you know, what I should try these days.

Patia Eaton (60:43)

That's nice. Yeah, that's sweet to hear. I'm wondering, when was the last time you had any contact with Clinton, he

April Scales (60:52)

died about eight years in due to complications due to hepatitis C. So he only served about eight years of his sentence before he died.

Hannah Smith (61:01)

Were you in contact with him at

April Scales (61:02)

all the whole time you were. Yeah, the whole time.

Hannah Smith (61:06)

And what was that relationship like after you were both in prison?

April Scales (61:10)

We were still very cordial and we co parented. So when she brought him to see him, she brought him to see both of us. Okay, so he had a relationship with him at least for eight years.

Hannah Smith (61:22)

And what was his sentence that he received?

April Scales (61:25)

Two counts of accessory before the fact of first degree murder, conspiracy to commit arson, and conspiracy to commit murder.

Hannah Smith (61:33)

Yeah. So was he looking at a lifetime sentence as well?

April Scales (61:36)

Well, yeah, but not as long as mine.

Hannah Smith (61:39)

Right.

April Scales (61:39)

Because it's more of an excessive amount of years than life.

Hannah Smith (61:43)

Did your feelings toward him ever change? Like, did you ever feel resentful of him, or did you feel on pretty good terms with him until he died?

April Scales (61:53)

Resentful. See, that was kind of, you know, can I resent him for giving me the most wonderful gift? Can I resent him for putting me in a bad situation? You know, it's kind of. I can't say that I did only because of my son. So you kind of have to weigh both sides of it. And the fact that I have a wonderful son outweighs everything else.

Patia Eaton (62:23)

April, what do you hope will come from sharing your story?

April Scales (62:27)

I hope that the world will know that change is possible. Everyone deserves a second chance. Rehabilitation is real. And then I want people to know what really happens behind the criminal justice system. Don't look at tv. That is so far fetched. If you really want to know what's going on, you ask someone like me. And don't judge them by what black and white says. Don't judge them by their past. Judge them by who they are and who they've become, not what they were portrayed to be.

Hannah Smith (63:03)

That was kind of a heavy one.

Patia Eaton (63:05)

Yeah, it's like, I think, oh, wow, that was a tough story to hear in ways. And then I'm like, but she had to live that.

Hannah Smith (63:11)

Yeah. She's also very inspiring. The amount of education that she's done, that she completed in prison and that she's done since. She's very driven and has really turned her life around and is, like, doing some really cool things.

Patia Eaton (63:29)

Yeah. I mean, just her pursuit of education in prison when there was quite literally no end in sight for her of being there. I mean, I thought so much about that, especially because she didn't have anyone on the outside rallying for her you know, her grandparents were, of course, killed as a result of the fire. She didn't have a mom that was involved in her life in a healthy way that was outside trying to support her. She had the friend of her mom's who took in her son. But, of course, that person is busy in their own life and caring for April's son, which was a huge undertaking, I'm sure, and one that April really appreciated, appreciates probably still to this day. But to think of finding the willpower to spend your money on education that you might never get to use outside of prison. Yeah, I mean, that's huge. And I think, or I wonder if April being incarcerated from such a young age almost gave her that sense of not knowing even though she was gonna be sentenced to two life sentences. Like, that same feeling of, well, how am I gonna die and come back? She was so young that it was like, almost like when you're that young, you can't understand it. And so she just continued on, like, someday she would be released.

Hannah Smith (64:52)

Yeah. It's obviously a huge part of the story, and we've talked about this on the show before, is this idea of charging a minor as an adult and that. That was way more prevalent in the 90s. But there's such ripple effects to all of this stuff. So there are still a lot of people in prison serving very harsh sentences who were sentenced as minors. And it's tricky to talk about. Right, because April started a fire that killed two people. Two people that she loved, and she was mourning them. But she did do that. Right. And so it's this question of, is she a victim or not? But she served, what, 30 years for that and was looking at a whole life sentence. The thing is, when you're that young, when you're 15, 14, 15, 16, and you're charged with something like a life sentence or 30 to 40 years, I think we have to ask ourselves the question, what good is that? What is this doing for that person, for our society? They're so young. Yes. There needs to be some action taken. Right. I'm not suggesting that she didn't face any consequences for this, but you're sort of just throwing a person away at that point. They're young, impressionable. They have such a chance to turn around and do something with their lives, and you're just taking that away. And I don't know that that helps anybody.

April Scales (66:19)

Yeah.

Patia Eaton (66:20)

I mean, especially hearing from April about how her own mother, not her grandmother, but her mother, would sort of help her sneak around with cl. And, you know, to think of a mother doing anything to help that relationship and not stop it, I think just shows how layered people are. You know, April did love her grandparents. I'm sure that there are complex feelings around not being able to be raised by your own biological mother. And I don't know what the statistics are, but I imagine that if you have a parent who is in and out of prison, you are more likely to enter the same cycle. And when I think about how young she was, I think, you know what? Yeah, I was never in that exact situation, but I was so impressionable at that age. Like, I wanted desperately to be liked by my friends. And I just happened to live in a community where mostly everybody got along and I had a peaceful childhood and I had very involved parents.

Hannah Smith (67:23)

Yeah.

Patia Eaton (67:24)

But if I didn't have involved parents, it wouldn't have taken, I don't think, very much for me at 14, 15, to be influenced. To be influenced, yeah, totally.

Hannah Smith (67:33)

And that's a whole other part of this case that I think we were both surprised to hear. Never even came up with her attorney. The fact that her boyfriend Ciel was 29 years old, twice her age, and it was his idea to come up with a plan. It was his idea to start the fire. And also he was the one really that had the most to lose because her grandparents were threatening to have him charged with rape.

Patia Eaton (68:01)

Yeah. And to think, you know, a 29 year old's view of consequences and the world. He had to know what a house fire could result in serious harm or death.

Hannah Smith (68:14)

There's no way he couldn't have known that.

Patia Eaton (68:15)

There's no way he couldn't have known that. And you have to imagine, well, he didn't set the fire. He was sure to ask her to set the fire. And on top of that, it's like just thinking of the age gap and the way that he impacted her life so quickly. He comes into her life, they start, you know, I don't even really want to call it dating, because this massive age gap, that should never have happened. She becomes pregnant and he's not using

Hannah Smith (68:43)

contraception as an adult. Man who has two children is fully aware of the consequences of this. Right.

Patia Eaton (68:49)

And it's like he just lets her be in this really vulnerable situation. Any adult knows that for a teenage girl to raise a baby would have severe consequences for her life. It doesn't mean that, you know, I'm not taking stance on whether someone should or shouldn't do that, but continuing your education would be a billion times harder. You know, making money Supporting yourself while you're taking care of a child, meanwhile, you're not married to this person.

Hannah Smith (69:18)

Right. Yeah.

Patia Eaton (69:19)

Devastating consequences as a result of this relationship, which even in the interview, I feel like, you know, that was one thing you and I were, I think, on the same page on and. And pressing April about a little bit was like calling it a relationship is a bit off. Feeling for me like this was grooming. You have a 29 year old man who groomed a young teenage girl.

Hannah Smith (69:43)

There's a very real power imbalance there.

Patia Eaton (69:47)

A massive power imbalance.

Hannah Smith (69:49)

You know, it's tricky because it's like, also it's important for us when we're interviewing someone for them to have their true be heard. And I think April, you know, she did acknowledge that she called it grooming. She also, you know, she was like, well, I'm happy to have my son

Patia Eaton (70:07)

and I get that.

Hannah Smith (70:09)

And she was on good terms with him until he died. So in some ways I think him being.

Patia Eaton (70:13)

Cl.

Hannah Smith (70:14)

Yeah, cl. Yeah, sorry. So I think that she feels conflicted about it. Like she definitely sees it as a real relationship where she was in love. But she also has acknowledged like that there was grooming.

Patia Eaton (70:27)

Yeah. And you know, the fact that he was white and she is black and in the South, I mean, it was easy to understand why the reason they were sneaking around would be pretty convoluted and maybe hard for her to understand at that age.

Hannah Smith (70:43)

But even that she's like, looking back, he tried to put that on me and say I was the one who was making them sneak around. Which is so conniving because no, bro,

Patia Eaton (70:53)

he doesn't want to be caught with a 14 year old.

Hannah Smith (70:56)

No, illegal. Like you're going to prison, but like you're conveniently leaving that out of the narrative. That's just like, it's hard for me to sort of skate by there.

Patia Eaton (71:04)

Yeah, that one was tough.

Hannah Smith (71:06)

That was tough.

Patia Eaton (71:07)

But, you know, eventually April was released. And yeah, it took over 30 years, but it happened. And I think that that was the absolute right call. I mean, when we talk about life sentences for minors, I think I personally just question the highest. I don't think we do right by people when we do that. And I think that she probably had, you know, adults in her life that on some level failed her. And here we are.

Hannah Smith (71:34)

Yeah.

Patia Eaton (71:35)

But she was released and I asked her a little bit about what it felt like to sort of step out of prison after decades, and it was nice. She said that she was able to stay with a friend and she slept really well, the first night in a real bed, and now she feels like she has a great circadian rhythm, whereas you don't get options in prison about when you wake up. And when you go to bed, she wakes up to birds chirping. And I think it's a reminder of the little things that are really easy to take for granted, but when you lose your freedom, you really lose everything.

Hannah Smith (72:10)

Yeah. And one of the things that she said, and I don't think it made it into the episode, but we have actually heard from other people we've interviewed who have spent time in prison and then been released, is that there can be this gap of information that you experience when you get out of prison. So she was incarcerated in the 90s and was released in 2022. So even thinking about technology and how different it is in that time period, completely different world. Right. She came out to a world where everyone is using smartphones and texting, where AI is a thing. And so she talked about there being some hurdles with technology. Just feeling like everyone has this literacy around this thing that I don't have, but that, you know, just learning over time how to adjust to those things.

Patia Eaton (72:59)

Yeah. And we record remotely almost all of the time. And she was able to just get on the call, the video call, and do it and set up her local recording. And it's really impressive. I mean, we all experienced this evolution of technology. We went from landline to cordless landline to little Nokia phones to Motorola Razr Pink. Yep.

Hannah Smith (73:23)

Me too.

Patia Eaton (73:23)

Yep. And now here we are with, like, everything at our fingertips. And she talked about, you know, current events. You hear a little bit in prison, but you can't stay up to speed in prison on everything going on in the world.

Hannah Smith (73:37)

Right.

Patia Eaton (73:38)

And it would be wild to think about. Like, you go through 9, 11, but you're in prison and your days look exactly the same.

Hannah Smith (73:44)

Mm. Yeah. So it's quite an adjustment. But I was really grateful to April for telling us her story, especially because it's one that I don't think is easy to look back on for many reasons for her. But I'm glad that she got out and that she's doing well.

Patia Eaton (73:58)

Yeah. And that she has a relationship with her son, A good relationship.

Hannah Smith (74:01)

Yeah. That's great.

Patia Eaton (74:02)

That was, like, a really sweet moment in the story to learn that.

Hannah Smith (74:05)

Yeah.

Patia Eaton (74:06)

Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram henife podcast or a Blue sky at the Knife Podcast.

Hannah Smith (74:21)

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith

Patia Eaton (74:26)

and me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and Alexis Amorosi.

Hannah Smith (74:30)

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

Patia Eaton (74:33)

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Hannah Smith (74:35)

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Patia Eaton (74:37)

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Hannah Smith (74:39)

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer Foreign.

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