Loading summary
Transcript188 lines
- [00:02]
Pasha Eaton
This is exactly right.
- [00:07]
Public Sponsor
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screen thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public
- [00:53]
Public Disclosures
Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.
- [01:04]
Public Sponsor
Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures there's a difference
- [01:08]
Redfin Sponsor
between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to make up that difference and close the gap between finding and owning the home for you. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, so when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it comes to making an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more focus on the one you'll call home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses and get started@redfin.com own the dream
- [01:38]
Pets Best Sponsor
protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best Plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data and illness plans. Pets Age 0 to 10 this story
- [02:09]
Hannah Smith
contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
- [02:13]
Pasha Eaton
The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.
- [02:21]
Hannah Smith
As a note, we recorded this interview at the end of March. Dusty had been released on parole and then two days before the launch of this episode, we were notified that Dusty had been arrested for a parole violation. We were not told any more information other than that. We will let you know if we learn more.
- [02:55]
Pasha Eaton
Welcome to the Knife. Off record, I'm Pasha Eaton.
- [02:58]
Hannah Smith
I'm Hannah Smith. Last week we spoke with Aaron Lahman. Aaron had been advocating for the release of Dusty Turner, who at the time was serving an 82 year sentence for the 1995 murder of Jennifer Evans.
- [03:11]
Pasha Eaton
If you haven't yet listened to that episode, we suggest going back and listening to that episode before listening to this one. Because In March of 2026, three months after our initial conversation with Aaron, Dusty walked out of prison. So today we're speaking with Dusty about his decades long fight for freedom and his new life on the outside.
- [03:30]
Hannah Smith
Let's get into.
- [03:36]
Pasha Eaton
Hi Dusty.
- [03:36]
Hannah Smith
Welcome to the Knife.
- [03:38]
Dusty Turner
Well, thank you. I appreciate it and I'm glad to be here.
- [03:42]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, we were so glad to be speaking with you today.
- [03:46]
Hannah Smith
When this comes out, basically we will have just aired the episode. The week before that we did with Aaron. For that episode we relied on Aaron's information as well as we looked at court documents and did research and put the story together. So our audience will have just heard about the murder of Jennifer Evans on June 18, 1995. And then they will have heard Aaron speaking on your behalf and about your long search for justice. And she did a great job of walking us through all of that. That interview was in December of 2025. We're now in March of 2026. And when we left that interview, you were still in prison. So can you give us an update on where you are now?
- [04:36]
Dusty Turner
I was released from prison on parole on March 5th. So I've been staying in a beautiful place up in northwestern Virginia, a friend's place, and it's a very large property and they were so gracious to allow me to stay here. And I plan to be here for just a couple months and then I'll be returning back to my home state of Indiana.
- [05:00]
Hannah Smith
And how did it feel to be paroled?
- [05:03]
Dusty Turner
There were kind of mixed emotions. It's just number one, it's inadequate and I hate to say it necessarily like that because I am grateful, especially to the board members who granted me parole. I'm very grateful and especially to one specific board member who really had the courage to state publicly that not only should I be granted parole, but that I should never have been in prison to begin with.
- [05:28]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, I actually was watching that live when it happened and I thought that was a really striking moment.
- [05:36]
Dusty Turner
Yeah.
- [05:37]
Hannah Smith
How long were you in prison?
- [05:41]
Dusty Turner
I was in prison for 30 years and nine months, literally a month ago. I could tell you very specifically the amount of days that I spent in prison. And it was like 11,000, 210 days. I think it was something like that. But since I've been released, I've been really just overwhelmed with just everything. And I know it may be hard to comprehend of what it's like to live in that environment for, you know, over three decades, and then just all of a sudden I'm out under the open sky and just everything's just so much. It's just a lot, you know, coming at me from all different directions and just overwhelming my senses.
- [06:23]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, I bet it can be overwhelming. Good. But also just like, generally it's a lot to take in, even if it's all good. It's just so different, probably, than the last 30 years.
- [06:34]
Dusty Turner
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not complaining, Right. I'm not complaining because I'm enjoying every moment out here. But I haven't looked backwards a lot, and I'm going to, but I'm just really trying to get my feet on the ground. So it's unbelievable that I'm sitting here and I've not even been out a whole month, and I couldn't recall very specifically how many, you know, months I have been in prison because it was very significant to me the day before I walked out.
- [07:00]
Hannah Smith
Right, Yeah, I bet.
- [07:03]
Dusty Turner
Yeah.
- [07:03]
Hannah Smith
I want to give people a little more context because they listen to the episode, but it's been a week since they've heard it. So you were sentenced to first degree murder, is that correct? Abduction with the intent to defile.
- [07:18]
Dusty Turner
Defile.
- [07:19]
Hannah Smith
And you were sentenced 82 years in prison, which was notably 10 years longer than Billy Brown was sentenced. And I think that's important to point out the convictions because I wanted to get into some more specifics about the abduction to defile and that charge, which ended up adding a lot of time, you know. So you were Sentenced in, was it 1996?
- [07:43]
Dusty Turner
Right. Convicted and sentenced in 96. I was arrested mid 95.
- [07:48]
Hannah Smith
Right. Okay. So I just want to give people that background. And then it wasn't even that long. I mean, any time in prison, I'm sure, is quite long feeling. But it was like 1999 when Billy Brown started to sort of spread these rumors and tell people, including his attorney, that he lied. Because a big part of your conviction was his testimony that he lied and he said that you guys killed Jennifer together. And it was this whole plan and he basically came out and said, no, I did it. I did it. I lied. I drug Dusty into this. And so I think that that's something really to highlight when we start talking about your parole and about your long search to get this overturned or for justice, because that was 1999. We're in 2026. So 26, 27 years that your innocence has been proclaimed. And yet it took a really long time.
- [08:43]
Dusty Turner
Right. Can I just add, in 1999, as you mentioned, Billy Brown had become a Christian in one of the prisons he was at. And I was later told that he confessed to his family and to his lawyer. His lawyer apparently told him that he needs to be quiet and that he still has a chance to have some kind of reprieve from an appeals process and that he should just keep his mouth shut. And so it was 2002 that I found out that he had confessed to his family and to his lawyer. And then that started a ball rolling. And of course, and you said, profess, you know, my innocence. But from day one, when I told the detectives what happened to Jennifer Evans that day forward, I've just told the truth of what happened. And also for context, Billy Brown felt like that I had broke what was referred to as the seal code by telling the authorities what happened, what he did. And so therefore, he felt like he should bring me down with him because I violated that code, as he would say.
- [09:47]
Hannah Smith
So that was the justification, in his mind, for lying.
- [09:50]
Dusty Turner
That was the justification, yeah. So in 2008, we had filed a writ of actual innocence, and we went back to the same court in which I was convicted so that the judge there could determine if Billy Brown's confession was truthful, credible, specifically in that he acted alone and that I had no role in the murder or in the restraining of the victim, was the specific wording. The judge at that court, the circuit court where I was convicted, he ruled that that's what it was, right? That Billy Brown did act alone, that I had no role in the murder or in the restraining the victim. And so from that ruling led to the court of appeals to grant me actual innocence. Right. And it was the first time that the Court of appeals had granted someone in Virginia throughout the whole of history. Believe it or not, it was the first time that the court of appeals granted someone actual innocence. Now, they've overturned cases, plenty of cases in the past, but they never use that phrase, that this man is actually innocent. So that was a first. But, you know, later it was appealed, and it went on up to the Supreme Court. Eventually, my release was overturned on a technicality of a single word, and that word was restraint or restraining. My whole life hung on the balance of that single argument.
- [11:15]
Hannah Smith
So they were saying, we're arguing that in theory, you could have abducted her without restraining her.
- [11:21]
Dusty Turner
The theory at trial was that Jennifer was taken from the parking lot, you know, against her will, to some other undisclosed location. And it was. The theory was created from Billy Brown's story after they told him that I had revealed to the authorities what had happened. His story, and this is what they used as their theory to convict me, was that Jennifer was taken out of the parking lot to some other location, undisclosed, and killed in some other location. So in 2008, they created a new theory. Right. Because this one no longer held up. So it's a fact. It was a fact then, still a fact now, that I had no role in the murder or in any restraining of the victim, that Billy Brown was the sole perpetrator of the murder of Jennifer. Okay. So they created a theory to get around a loophole, to get around those words. And so, again, they said, okay, well, if is the fact that Turner myself did not restrain Jennifer, then maybe a jury still could believe that there was an abduction by deception without the requirement of a restraint. I know that's deep and kind of detailed, but that's what it was.
- [12:34]
Hannah Smith
It is like kind of getting in the weeds a little bit. But I think it illustrates kind of what you were saying in the beginning about it's hard to hear that and not feel like there's some agenda or political reason to try to want to keep you in prison and uphold your conviction because you've been granted, at this point, the writ of actual innocence. And the only way that can be appealed and the only way to keep you behind bars at that point is this, like, very. Is this semantic argument about what restraint means. And at that point, you have to wonder if we're really seeking justice.
- [13:11]
Dusty Turner
Yeah, well, and you see in other cases, and I looked at a lot of cases in Virginia and elsewise, of wrongfully convicted people and how they want to hold on to those convictions. Right. And the states want to hold on to those convictions and go through pains to not admit fault. Right. But there's also an idea that in the kind of a macrocosmic idea of the justice system, that it almost requires confidence in the justice system. People need to be confident in the justice system. So when these cases of wrongful convictions, injustices arise, it diminishes people's confidence in the justice system. As a whole. Right. And that's not good for, you know, for the government and for the justice system. It's not good.
- [14:00]
Pasha Eaton
I think that's really insightful. And, you know, having spent decades working to prove your innocence and then getting the writ of actual innocence and researching these cases where people remained in prison who shouldn't have been, how did you hold on to hope during that time?
- [14:23]
Dusty Turner
Yeah, I mostly held on to hope during that time. Mostly I did. You know, early on I was extremely naive, having no previous experience with the judicial system whatsoever. I was a person who dedicated my life to the service of the country and I was very much prepared to give my life in service for this country. So I assumed a lot of basic concepts that Americans have always held dear. One is that there is always justice, you know, and that justice is part of the fabric of this country. And again, I was young, I was naive. Even after being convicted, I still assumed that just over the horizon, that the truth would come out. Right. Just over the horizon. Surely within another six months or another year, they're going to figure it out or something's going to happen. There's going to be appeals, something's going to arise to show what the truth of what happened. And so I wouldn't be spending eternity in prison. That hook was just always over the horizon. It was never within grasp. It was in 2008, 2009, when they did grant me the writ of actual innocence. And my family and friends were popping champagne and celebrating. They knew I was coming home within a matter of just days or weeks at most. And then that is like a roller coaster ride. We were up on the high and then we just fell straight down. Right. And it was starting over again.
- [15:53]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, I mean, I can imagine that would be just a swift drop to see writ of actual innocence and then to be in the same place.
- [16:04]
Public Sponsor
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public
- [16:51]
Public Disclosures
Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.
- [17:01]
Public Sponsor
Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.
- [17:07]
Redfin Sponsor
It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right scrolling listings at night dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com your pet is your bestie,
- [18:08]
Pets Best Sponsor
your therapist, your perfect match. It's easy to love them. It's easy to protect them too, with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't and you get a vet bill to match. With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world. Get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills from less than a dollar a day. Pets Best has plans to cover accidents, injuries and more, from puppies and kittens to seniors. Find your Perfect Match plan and get a quote@petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for advertising, accident and illness plans, pets, age 0 to 10.
- [19:11]
Pasha Eaton
I'm wondering, you know, your family was advocating for you and there to support you. When did this sort of group of supporters for you really start to grow?
- [19:23]
Dusty Turner
I think social media really helped in that. The release of a documentary about my case was extremely helpful because it opened up my story to a whole new demographic that never would have had the opportunity to learn about it. So I've had, you know, supporters over the years, but it's difficult to fight uphill against such a juggernaut. You know, this complex system, it's like, it only shows defeats, you know, and it's like there's, there's never victory. It's the way it seems. And so all the way. Fast forward to why was I having any mixed emotions upon being granted parole? Because one might assume that I should only have the emotion of joy, elation. And yet there's still a part of me that was kind of sad. Not sad that I'm getting out. Of course, I couldn't wait to be with my family and friends, and I've enjoyed every moment since I've been out. But parole is not justice for me. It is inadequate. Right. It's not justice. I'm still convicted of two crimes that I did not commit, and we're going to continue fighting.
- [20:35]
Pasha Eaton
So your ultimate goal is for those convictions themselves to be overturned?
- [20:42]
Dusty Turner
Absolutely.
- [20:43]
Hannah Smith
I want to talk a little bit about those charges and maybe the path forward in the fight to try to get them overturned. And in order to do that, like, I want to reflect a little bit about the trial. And from your perspective now, looking back on everything, you know, when did things start to go wrong for you in a way that led to this murder charge and this abduction charge.
- [21:12]
Dusty Turner
Oh, goodness. Where do they start to go wrong? I, I, you know, you could say that it started to go wrong when I was having a normal evening late in June, and I was 20 years old, and I was with a young lady, a super nice, intelligent, wonderful young lady, and everything was normal. And then this monster creates extreme trauma and tragedy in just a blink of an eye. So that's when things truly, obviously went wrong. Right. But when we're talking about the convictions, I'm not sure were the beginnings of how it went wrong. I mean, it snowballed. Right. Once they charged me with the crimes that they did, it was like they just, from that point, they just had to figure out how to create the evidence and the story and the theory and to create all that around how to convict me. Right. And then a defendant, such as myself, are relying upon whatever attorney we happen to get. You know, I'm not from Virginia. I knew no one here. I've had no prior experience. I didn't even think I needed an attorney. That's how naive I was. I literally didn't even think I needed an attorney. Right, yeah.
- [22:29]
Hannah Smith
And you talked about, you know, the prosecution's argument and how from your perspective, that came together. They got Billy's testimony and charged you and ran with this story and then sort of built the case around that story. This ended up being very much circumstantial trial. It really hinged on Billy Brown's testimony, which we know ended up being a lie, which he's come out and said is a lie. The strongest argument from the state has fallen through the floor because Billy Brown has come out and said none of this was true. Are those kinds of things arguments that you're building with your team?
- [23:08]
Dusty Turner
Yeah, those and others. But you know, going back to the trial, what struck me certainly at the time was how they could twist things to make them seem so negative. Right?
- [23:21]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [23:22]
Dusty Turner
And every little thing, they twist it and then they present it to the jury. Things that were innocent, totally innocent.
- [23:29]
Pasha Eaton
Are you able to highlight any just specific moments where that happened?
- [23:35]
Dusty Turner
Sure. Here's one example. I'll give you a couple. And they're kind of military related. So one is, and it's so silly. It's just silly. But when I was in Puerto Rico doing some advanced dive training with the military afterwards, the instructors asked us to write a evaluation of the program. And he said, listen, this is for the master chief or the whomever. So, you know, basically suggested you can make it kind of comical. Right. It's not all serious. And so I wrote an evaluation which included just some light hearted humor. Right. And the prosecuting attorneys got a hold of this evaluation and presented it as if it's like something serious or real or just horrible. You know, it's the narrative. And so the prosecuting attorneys, and maybe the defense attorneys too, but it's like a game. It's nothing but a game. And how do you win? How do you present things, even if you have to take them out of context, it doesn't matter. Right. We need to present them to win. And so that's what was going on. I was subject to a lot of that in the trial. And like you said, it's circumstantial. It's all just meaningless.
- [24:46]
Pasha Eaton
When you were at the trial, did you think listening to the prosecution and listening to your defense, where did you Think the jury would land.
- [24:57]
Dusty Turner
I thought that they would absolutely vote not to convict me of those crimes, but to likely convict me of the one underlying crime that I was guilty of. I truly assumed that they would rule, you know, not guilty on the two crimes that I was actually convicted of, but to declare me guilty of the one crime that I was guilty of, which was accessory after the fact of the felony. Right. And which the punishment for that at the time carried up to 12 months in jail. And I was guilty of that. I am guilty of that. So therefore, I assume that that's what they would find me guilty of.
- [25:39]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because, you know, I want to talk about Jennifer Evans for just a moment. I think that in wrongful conviction cases, they're so complex, because what happens is that you have a victim in an original case, and then you create another victim by sending them to prison for something they didn't do. Right. And I think we're all, you know, we should be able to understand and hold space for both of those victims. And sometimes people have a hard time doing that. You know, they conflate maybe your release with being unjust for Jennifer Evans or somehow, you know, as not justice for her, which I understand the emotional response to that. And I also think it's really important not to skate over or minimize the harm that was done to her. She was murdered. The harm that was done to her family and friends. It's horrible. But as I said, I also believe that you're a victim because you were wrongfully convicted. You know, and so it's important to, like, be mindful of both. But I'm curious, you know, the many years that you were in prison, I imagine you reflected a lot on what happened that evening and what happened to Jennifer. And I'm just wondering, like, what that reflection has looked like for you when you think about Jennifer and her family.
- [27:02]
Dusty Turner
Yeah. So I'll preface this with the fact that one of the parole board members asked me on behalf of the Evans family and the loved ones of Jennifer, that I not speak about her. Right.
- [27:15]
Hannah Smith
Okay.
- [27:16]
Dusty Turner
And I think that that comes from a place of, you know, the deep sorrow and harm that her family has endured and continue to endure. And so I try to walk that fence of respecting, you know, first of all, I'm going to, of course, respect their family and loved ones, because as you pointed out, you know, what happened to her is a 100% complete travesty. There's no way to overstate that. Right. And for me, in the position that I was in. It was difficult to kind of fully grieve that which I experienced, which was a loss of the life of a young lady at the hands of someone who I had been training with for a year and a half. And so in that environment and under the conditions and being wrongfully convicted, it was and still is kind of difficult to fully grasp or grieve the loss of her life. I don't know if that makes sense.
- [28:22]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [28:22]
Dusty Turner
Yeah. But also, again, I do want to make sure that I'm respecting the wishes of her loved ones.
- [28:29]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [28:30]
Dusty Turner
I would love to speak about her more, but I'm not going to because of that. I would just say that she was a completely innocent young lady who did not, obviously did not deserve any harm to come upon her, you know?
- [28:44]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, No, I appreciate. I think that's very thoughtful the way that you've spoken about it. And it also makes sense to me that this experience is, like, really layered for you because this changed the course of your life as well. I don't know if this is a rude question to ask, but I'm just curious if you ever ended up speaking with Billy Brown again or saw him.
- [29:08]
Dusty Turner
No, it's not a rude question. Back in 96, I saw him walking through, we'll just say the hallway, I guess, of the jail. And then in 2008, I was in the courtroom when he testified for about four hours on the stand. And I sat there and endured and watched him testify in 2008. And that's it. Right. So he has written maybe two letters, I think, to my mother, begging for forgiveness. I think that's about it. I haven't had no direct conversations or communications with him at all, and I don't intend to ever. I will be seeking ways to at least have my own voice heard on the opposition of any possibility of parole for him.
- [29:57]
Hannah Smith
You feel like even though he's come out and testified that he lied and taken accountability for that, you still feel like you don't see enough remorse for his initial actions, for the murder that he committed?
- [30:10]
Dusty Turner
Not whatsoever. No, he's not. And I don't know if he has it in him. You know, I often refer to him as a psychopath, and of course, I can't truly diagnose him. But a sociopath, a psychopath, I don't really know. But I don't feel like he's fully internalized. And I could say this because, again, seeing him on the stand back in 2008, and then I've talked to a lot of guys who have Been around him in prison. Right. I've been at 10 different institution prisons in Virginia, and some of those I've been to more than once. So I've moved all around the state in these different prisons. They, of course, always kept he and I separate, so they would never put us together in a prison environment. But I came across many, many, many people who had been around him in prison, and they would share with me their perspective on him and, you know, how he carries himself and so forth. And I've known of other people that have spoken to him directly, whether on the phone or personally. And these are people on the outside speaking to him. Right. And so this is how I've come to that conclusion, that he hasn't fully internalized the impacts of his actions.
- [31:26]
Pasha Eaton
In what ways did that come across to you in those conversations with people who had been interacting with Billy?
- [31:33]
Dusty Turner
Yeah, and some of them kind of might be subtle, but that things that he has expressed, again, suggests to me that a lot of his whole psychology is about himself. He's self centered, he's self focused, and things that he does or says are all about, you know, how it impacts himself or how, you know, it could better himself. All the things that I've heard concerning him over the last couple decades suggest that there's no change in that mindset that he has.
- [32:06]
Pasha Eaton
Do you recall any specific moments or things that were said to you that he had said that make you feel this way?
- [32:13]
Dusty Turner
So I know that more recently he has spoken to a media person. I don't want to name names, but a media person. And his concerns that he expressed were really invalid. And they were, again, all about himself, thoughts about parole. And some of these things, instead of
- [32:38]
Hannah Smith
using that opportunity to say, I'm so regretful for my actions or I've caused so much harm, I've took this person away from their loved ones. He instead decided to talk about his own suffering or something. Is that what you mean?
- [32:53]
Dusty Turner
Absolutely. Yeah. You've hit the nail on the head. And that's not just this one time. This is from my understanding, like, every time. See, I've gone through courses of victim advocacy and victim impact courses. I created offender rehabilitation program that is victim focused. And it has a lot of elements of restorative justice principles and practices. And so I've been able to really understand what it means to be victimized, to be harmed. And so since I have, I've seen that, again, going back to Billy Brown, that which he has not put forth, the effort and the work to do, which he should be the one doing those things, right. I was going through these courses to help again create this a program that would help with the accountability and rehabilitation of incarcerated people and people who've harmed others. Right? And truly he should be doing those things. You know, he should be really figuring out how his actions have truly impacted on the wide scale all the people you know, all of Jennifer's family and friends and all of the community there, and all of my family and my friends and my community. And he's not really repented for all that.
- [34:06]
Public Sponsor
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibility, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public
- [34:53]
Public Disclosures
Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.
- [35:04]
Public Sponsor
Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.
- [35:09]
Redfin Sponsor
It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com protect your pet with insurance
- [36:10]
Pets Best Sponsor
from Pets Best Plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.
- [36:43]
Pasha Eaton
So you were released on parole March 5, so earlier this month, is that right?
- [36:51]
Dusty Turner
That's correct.
- [36:52]
Pasha Eaton
I mean, after 30, almost 31 years, can you kind of paint the picture? What did it feel like to walk out of prison?
- [37:03]
Dusty Turner
Well, the first feeling and describing all of this, I would probably, unfortunately, use the term overwhelmed way too often. But when I walked out of the prison, I was surprised, I guess, to first feel kind of a weight. You would think that the weight would be lifted off of my shoulders, right, walking out, but it almost felt like this huge weight of just the openness, the sky and the trees and everything around was just kind of bearing down upon me. And I literally had a hard time breathing, so I had to kind of catch my breath and walking out. My first thoughts was to find my mother. And I knew that she was out there waiting upon me somewhere. You know, she's been fighting alongside me for 31 years, you know, and in a lot of ways, she has been incarcerated with me during all this time. And I speak about her first, but, you know, a lot of my family members and friends, too, have experienced a lot of these hardships with me. And though I was the one physically behind the concrete and steel, they too were going through ordeals that were directly related to my incarceration. The warden himself wanted to walk me out. He's. He was a good guy, and he wanted to make sure he was the one walking me out of the prison. And so I was literally in like a holding cell. And I thought that it was probably going to be another 15 or 20 minutes before I actually walked out. And he just pops in, he said, all right, let's go. And I'm like, right now? He's like, yeah, come on, you're not trying to stay, are you? So we walked out, you know, side by side, and I shook his hand as I continued on into the parking lot. Had some meaty people kind of jump out of their car with questions and cameras and stuff. And I didn't expect that right there in the parking lot, but I was able to see and hug and embrace my family and then also my very close friends and advocates. They were all there for me. And it was awesome, really, that all these people were there. And we all convened a little later in the evening at a beautiful place out in nature where it was quiet and we just had a big feast and everybody just enjoyed everybody's company, and everybody was extremely joyous.
- [39:23]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, I imagine that even just food outside of prison, like.
- [39:32]
Dusty Turner
Yeah. First it was the smells. Right. The sights. I won't say first, but I guess the sights were a lot. And then it was. The smells were just, like, coming at me from everywhere and the colors and the sights. And then my mother and my family had brought these baskets full of fruit and nuts and all kinds of foods that, of course, I haven't seen in decades right there on the spot. And then getting into a vehicle and driving was quite unnerving. I was in the passenger seat, but I felt like we were going 150 miles an hour down the road. I literally was bracing myself with my hands, and that was a bit unnerving.
- [40:13]
Pasha Eaton
I mean, just cars now are probably a lot different.
- [40:16]
Dusty Turner
Yeah. I was like. It's like being in a cockpit of a jet airplane or something.
- [40:21]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah.
- [40:22]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [40:23]
Pasha Eaton
And so your sort of landing place has been a friend's property in a rural area. What are your days look like now?
- [40:31]
Dusty Turner
Every day is a little different. This has been a blessing as far as this opportunity that my friends have provided to be in this very rural area, because it's extremely tranquil. I don't think that one could be in any more tranquil spot in the world. That's the way I feel anyway, so, you know, fortunate to be in that position, this position, because things are still overwhelming. Right. So I'm getting over some of the things. I'm able to walk into a grocery market or I walked into a Walmart once or twice now, and there's been a couple times where, you know, it's just been too many people and I'm just. I just. I gotta get out the. Out of the building. It's just kind of overwhelming. But I'm learning a little bit of technology, little baby steps at a time with the phone and such. But it's a super tranquil. I'm. I'm fortunate in this respect that I have a lot of resources that the person typically getting out of prison wouldn't have. Right. And I recognize that, you know, I made some friends, a lot of friends on the inside. So, you know, even though I was wrongfully convicted, I was still a convict. Right. And I lived as a convict. And I had to endure nothing different than what all the other convicts endure on a daily basis. The struggles, the hardships, the inhumanity and the treatments. You know, I endured it no more or less than all those around me. Just so happens that, you know, that I was wrongfully convicted and I'm not the only one whom I knew. I knew a couple other guys that were wrongfully convicted and some have since been exonerated and maybe a couple haven't. But my daily existence out here, I do have a job on a farm. It's a sustainable beef and pork farm also owned by good friends and real good people. Extremely flexible. They allow me to work when, when I can and they understand that there's things I have to do, whether it's, you know, setting up a bank account or trying to get my driver's license or, you know, today I was in a whole different city at a car dealership looking at vehicles to purchase a vehicle. These things are things that I have to do. And so fortunately I'm not in a position where I have to be working also an eight hour day or something whilst also trying to get my feet on the ground.
- [42:52]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, it's interesting to hear you walk us through all of that. I mean, it makes sense, but I think it's not something that I think about a lot or most people think about a lot. Like all the practical things you would have to do when you are released from prison, like a driver's license, you know, like getting all of these things set up. You know, maybe you don't have an idea about what the future holds, but I'm curious, you know, what your hopes and dreams are for, where you're gonna, what you're gonna be doing.
- [43:18]
Dusty Turner
Yeah. And so in the long term, I don't know. I really don't know. And what I am doing and starting to, to do as I get my feet on the ground is I'm going to be working with justice involved veterans. It's kind of a niche type of work. But I have a good friend in California who is the director of Veterans Healing Veterans. His name's Ron Self. Great guy. He has also experience as a justice involved veteran himself. And I've been working with them now for a few years. I developed A therapeutic horticulture program for veterans specifically which the program is being implemented right now in prisons in California. So I'm going to be working with Ron and with the Veterans Healing Veterans Organization. And I've been told that there may be a handful of veterans who may be wrongfully convicted across the United States. And when I say a handful, I was told there of five or six people specifically that are potentially wrongfully convicted and were veterans. And so I'm going to be in the near term, I'm going to be kind of researching these folks and to see if indeed they might be wrongfully convicted and then if so, how is it that we might be able to help them.
- [44:44]
Pasha Eaton
That's great.
- [44:44]
Hannah Smith
Awesome.
- [44:45]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. You know, I have to say, Dusty, watching the parole hearing live, when it was happening, it was anxious for me to be watching it. And I can only imagine how it must have felt for you all of these years. And I'm so glad that you are getting a chance at a new chapter of life and I think that you'll do something really great with it.
- [45:13]
Dusty Turner
Well, I appreciate that and I hope you're right.
- [45:15]
Hannah Smith
We really appreciate you taking the time.
- [45:17]
Pasha Eaton
I guess I have one last question. Maybe just to end on a lighter note or I'm just curious, what is your favorite food to eat now that you can eat whatever you want?
- [45:28]
Dusty Turner
So I was craving so badly. This might surprise you perhaps, but I was just craving so badly. Meat, real meat. My sweet tooth was diminished over the years, so I didn't crave the sweets. Although I do enjoy ice cream a lot and I do love chocolate. But my craving was just for like real food. My mother's home cooked food. First night, a friend come down from New York and he literally brought New York strips and we had ribeye, New York strips and some other stuff. Every day I'm eating things that I haven't eaten in decades and I'm enjoying every single bit of it. Well, good.
- [46:10]
Pasha Eaton
I'm glad to hear it.
- [46:11]
Dusty Turner
Yeah.
- [46:11]
Pasha Eaton
Well, thank you so much, Dusty.
- [46:13]
Dusty Turner
Okay, well, I appreciate you guys and thanks for having me.
- [46:21]
Hannah Smith
So glad we were able to connect with Dusty.
- [46:23]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, it's like this strange bittersweet feeling of like, oh, this story has a little bit of a happy ending, but then it's not happy. I mean, it's like obviously nothing can bring back Jennifer Evans. And Dusty has also spent almost 31 years behind bars, which is just an enormous chapter of his life.
- [46:46]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, there's no sparkly ending. It's just maybe better than it could have been. It is definitely Better than it could have been. Especially for Dusty.
- [46:56]
Pasha Eaton
Right. Because a lot of people never get that chance once they are in prison.
- [47:01]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [47:01]
Pasha Eaton
You know, speaking with someone who has been released on parole but has serious convictions. Murder, abduction. And so in being paroled, we learned that he had to present something called. And this is standard for everyone, but his conditions are more specific because of his convictions.
- [47:22]
Hannah Smith
Right. Like, I imagine if someone is on parole, the rules that they have to follow on parole are different if they've committed a violent crime versus not, I would guess.
- [47:33]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. And Dusty. So part of the home plan that he and his support system had to present involved housing, finances, transportation, work. All of these things to help him reintegrate into society and make sure he was going to be in a place that he could be safe and be successful on the outside after 30 years. I mean, talking about relearning things that you did before, like driving or.
- [48:03]
Hannah Smith
So many things.
- [48:04]
Pasha Eaton
So many things. I mean, think of the change in technology. That's the obvious one.
- [48:09]
Hannah Smith
It was interesting to hear him talk about getting in a car and how scary that was. Yeah. Because I guess you wouldn't spend a lot of time in a vehicle. Maybe if you had to be transported, you would be in a van, but probably just not that often. And then suddenly you're in a little car zooming on the freeway. That would be scary.
- [48:28]
Pasha Eaton
It would be scary. I mean, even to think of, like, if you're a little kid and you go from a car seat to, like, you get to sit in the front someday. Like, it still feels like, whoa.
- [48:36]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [48:37]
Pasha Eaton
And then he went 31 years and, yeah. I think he compared modern day cars to, like, a spacecraft. Yeah. Which. Yeah, I loved that.
- [48:47]
Hannah Smith
I feel like it was. Who was it? I'm gonna get this wrong. Was it my great grandmother? There was someone in the family who, like, during that time period where it was a transition from horse and carriage to vehicles, who just was like, nope. Oh, never, never get in a car. This is crazy. Who would invent this?
- [49:09]
Pasha Eaton
I mean, I actually love that take because as a horse person, let me tell you, they're not always that reliable.
- [49:17]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, we're safe.
- [49:19]
Pasha Eaton
We're safe. I mean, wow.
- [49:21]
Hannah Smith
But they don't go as fast.
- [49:22]
Pasha Eaton
They don't go as fast.
- [49:23]
Hannah Smith
They're not going 80 miles an hour.
- [49:24]
Pasha Eaton
They're way easier to bail off of. I don't want to jump out of my car. I've bailed off of many horses many times, but neither one sounds fun to me. They both hurt. Yeah. That's an interesting Take just absolutely not.
- [49:39]
Hannah Smith
Just won't be doing that. I don't know that it's gonna last, this technology, this invention.
- [49:44]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. Wow.
- [49:45]
Hannah Smith
But it reminded me that a little bit because coming out into the world, him talking about everything was so overwhelming and even the good stuff, which makes sense to me, that it would just be like so much sensory input after
- [50:01]
Pasha Eaton
30 years, walking into a grocery store, making all those kinds of choices. You know, on Dusty's team, his team of supporters has a social media page and they posted a clip of him walking down a grocery store aisle and he notices the price of top ramen today. And he's like, holy cow.
- [50:20]
Hannah Smith
Is top ramen just that package of ramen?
- [50:23]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah.
- [50:23]
Hannah Smith
Wait, how much is it? Like a $20?
- [50:25]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. Well, in LA, I think where was. It was 75 cents. And I was like, oh, but maybe
- [50:31]
Hannah Smith
it used to be 10 cents or something. That's wild.
- [50:34]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, wild. And I mean, he is experiencing that feeling probably all the time if he's not at his house. And, you know, he also acknowledged his luck and his privilege to have a place to stay and someone to employ him. And he talked about what those opportunities mean for someone in his position. It's not like most people released on parole who have been convicted of a violent crime, whether they have always proclaimed their innocence or not, are immediately met with a safe place to land.
- [51:07]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Or any kind of resources.
- [51:09]
Pasha Eaton
Or any kind of resources.
- [51:11]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. It was interesting talking to him. You know, I could see how people might expect him. And he kind of acknowledged this to just literally only feel gratitude, like, oh, I'm so grateful to be out. And while he acknowledged he is very grateful, he also was just realistic about the fact that he still doesn't feel like he has justice in the way that he wants it. He would love for his conviction to be overturned because he was paroled. Right. This means it's still on his record. And as you were talking about earlier, this means that he still has all of these rules he has to follow under his parole. So, you know, that are very restrictive. Yeah. So it's not like he can just do whatever he wants, live wherever he wants. He has a lot of things he has to check in with someone really regularly. I think that he said that travel restrictions, travel restrictions, they could drop by his house at any time. And I don't know how long that goes on. Do you remember?
- [52:13]
Pasha Eaton
I don't remember, but I know he will eventually, he said, be able to return to Indiana, his home state, and he's looking forward to that. But you know, also, he's wearing the title of murderer.
- [52:25]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [52:26]
Pasha Eaton
For as long as he has these convictions.
- [52:27]
Hannah Smith
It's on his record.
- [52:28]
Pasha Eaton
It's on his record. And that means something to him, as I think it would to everyone who. Who had said they were innocent. And so I understand. Yeah. Those mixed emotions. And if there's one thing like speaking with so many different kinds of people who have found themselves going through the criminal justice system, or even just knowing someone who has. Has shown me, it's that so many things can be true at the same time.
- [52:52]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [52:53]
Pasha Eaton
There can be this incredible loss of this young woman, Jennifer Evans, this incredible pain that her family probably still feels, or anyone who's lost a loved one in a violent way still feels. But it can also be true that we got it wrong in the trial and that there was an additional victim for that reason.
- [53:13]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [53:14]
Pasha Eaton
And from my perspective, Dusty Turner is that additional victim. He should have done time for accessory after the fact. He did help move her body.
- [53:24]
Hannah Smith
Yes.
- [53:24]
Pasha Eaton
And he acknowledged that he's guilty of that.
- [53:26]
Hannah Smith
Yes.
- [53:27]
Pasha Eaton
I think it's also these conversations that we are in all the time for our work has shown me that you can think all day long how you would react to a situation, but until you're in that situation, you really don't know.
- [53:40]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Because we've had a few episodes lately that people have been given longer sentences than maybe they should have been, or there's questions about. Was that just. We've talked about juveniles getting sentenced to life or to really long sentences. And I think we try to always explain this, but sometimes we do get people reacting that, you know, maybe we're not giving enough empathy toward the victims or somehow overlooking the victims. And that's never where our head is at all. You know, as you said, not only is it possible, but I think it's required that we look at things in a way where we understand that it's complex. Right. Like, I always go back to one of our really early episodes, Jennifer Thompson, and something she said to us was that putting the wrong person in prison is never justice. And that's so true. I think that it makes sense that if something horrible is done, like someone's murdered, that the people who love them or anyone who has empathy for the fact that they lost their life, can feel this really intense emotion and this sense of injustice and this feeling that someone has to pay. And that is totally understandable. But someone. Anyone paying is actually not justice. Right. The person who's responsible, paying and serving their time in a way that makes sense. For the crime committed. That's justice. Right.
- [55:13]
Pasha Eaton
And if someone is convicted of a murder that they actually were not responsible for, that is an injustice, and it is sad. And not only. You know, Dusty mentioned this in our conversation. What this put his family through. His family lost access to him for 30 years, and that was devastating for his mother. An exhausting to fight this battle with him for decades, trying to find a path to freedom. And, yeah, it's like, it's not a comparison of three decades behind bars to someone who is a victim of a homicide. It's not a comparison at all. It's just saying two things can be true at once. And no amount of punishing someone for a murder that they did not commit is helpful to any of us. Yeah, I'm reading a book right now that we're gonna talk about in a future episode, but I just. I learned something interesting reading this book that made me think of this case. And I don't know if this is exactly what happened here. Maybe it's a part of what happened. Of course, there's so many variables, but the majority of judges were prosecutors before they were judges.
- [56:24]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, I've actually, like, never really thought about that.
- [56:28]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, so they were prosecutors before they were judges, and so there's this, like, programming that the prosecution would then resonate with them. You know, I can't, like, quantify that in some super scientific way, but I find it hard to believe there's no correlation there. Like, if someone's telling me about their work in podcasting, I'm going to understand where they're coming from. And maybe if you were a former prosecutor and now you're a judge, and you have this prosecutor coming at you like a prosecutor, you're probably thinking, yeah, that's what I would have said. That's what I would have said.
- [57:04]
Hannah Smith
You would hope that they would be able to be impartial. Right? That's the idea. But I see what you're saying, because if they spent the former part of their career fighting against public defenders or defense attorneys, then it would be probably easier for them to relate to or be on the side of prosecutors. It's something that judges should hopefully be, like, actively working against in themselves. And also, why don't we have more public defenders that become judges?
- [57:32]
Pasha Eaton
I know it's a great question, and I think we're probably gonna have it answered in a future episode. Okay.
- [57:37]
Hannah Smith
Exciting.
- [57:38]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah. And, like, most people are good, a lot of people are good, and they want to do the right thing, but we can all have inherent bias buried deep within us, informed by our entire history that we're not even aware of, even when we're fight against it. I mean we see that all the time and. Yeah. Anyway, so it just made me think about this.
- [58:00]
Hannah Smith
Big philosophical thoughts and questions today.
- [58:03]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, just gonna tag on another 40 minutes here.
- [58:06]
Hannah Smith
I mean, yeah, I think talking with someone like Dusty and thinking about a case like this, it definitely tends to make us think about things like that.
- [58:15]
Pasha Eaton
Yeah, I mean, I'm 37 and thinking about 31 years gone.
- [58:21]
Hannah Smith
It's like you'd only have six years,
- [58:23]
Pasha Eaton
six years of life. But yeah, I mean, maybe that's like a silly way to think of it.
- [58:28]
Hannah Smith
It's a long time. Yeah, a really long time. And now he's, you know, 50s, in his 50s and kind of like starting over with his life. And I wish him the best.
- [58:39]
Pasha Eaton
Me too. Thank you guys for listening. We will be back next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram henifepodcast or bluesky athenifepodcast.
- [58:55]
Hannah Smith
This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith
- [59:00]
Pasha Eaton
and me, Pasha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.
- [59:04]
Hannah Smith
This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.
- [59:07]
Pasha Eaton
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
- [59:09]
Hannah Smith
Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
- [59:11]
Pasha Eaton
Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
- [59:13]
Hannah Smith
Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
- [59:25]
Reynolds Kitchens Sponsor
Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret. When prepping for cooking and baking, get ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter so the paper grips. Lay it down and drips and spills stay on the paper, not on your counter. Cleanup is as simple as lifting it away to reveal clean counters. Effortless it is. Thanks to Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Wet it, set it, prep it, done. Available in the Reynolds wrap aisle at Walmart, Target, Amazon and Costco.
- [60:06]
Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Sponsor)
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [60:28]
Pets Best Sponsor
of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available.
- [60:33]
Andrea Gunning (Sonesta Sponsor)
Taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mobile.com this is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal Travel Smarter, Not Harder and America's Best Value Inn by Sinesta. With convenient locations from coast to coast and value packed comfort at every turn, it's a practical choice for road trips, quick getaways and everyday travel that keeps things simple without sacrificing comfort. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at America's Best Value Inn means earning points towards free nights, upgrades and more every time you stay. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now at sonesta.
- [61:13]
Pasha Eaton
Com.
- [61:14]
Andrea Gunning (Sonesta Sponsor)
Terms and conditions apply.