Off Record: Deadly Greed

Summary

The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

Episode: Off Record: Deadly Greed

Date: February 5, 2026
Hosts: Hannah Smith & Patia Eaton

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Episode Overview

In “Off Record: Deadly Greed,” Hannah and Patia dive into the true story of a shocking and tragic double crime set in Ontario, Canada: murder, a victim on the run, and a botched getaway—all fueled by reckless ambition and a shocking lack of accountability. Through unpacking the rise and fall of Oliver Karafa and Lucy Lee, the hosts examine privilege, greed, and the ripple effects of violence. The episode shines a light on how both perpetrators’ disregard for consequence escalated from youthful irresponsibility to deadly crime, resulting in lifelong prison sentences.

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Key Discussion Points & Timeline

Introductions & Case Origins

[02:12-03:17]

• Patia teases a story involving “murder, and then they flee the country.”
• The case takes place in North York, Ontario, beginning in 2008 with high school/prep school acquaintances, Oliver Karafa and Lucy Lee.

Profile of Oliver Karafa

[03:40–05:14]

• Oliver, originally from Slovakia, grows up wealthy, is left living independently with his sisters from age 16 when his parents move back to Slovakia.
• He quickly adopts a “fast and loose” lifestyle: “Credit cards and free reign. It was a free for all.” – Patia ([04:46])

[05:14–07:35]

• In 2012, at 19, Oliver kills his friend David in a drunk driving incident—blood alcohol nearly four times the legal limit. David, a personal trainer who befriended Oliver working at the gym, is killed instantly.
• “He looks like a child… I think he was 19 at the time.” – Hannah ([07:06])

[07:43–11:24]

• Oliver’s remorse appears superficial; quickly more worried about jail than his friend’s death.
• sentenced to five years for impaired driving causing death, banned from driving for 15 years, paroled after only three years.
• Both hosts remark that his lenient sentence and behavior reinforce the idea he faces “no real consequences.”

Profile of Lucy Lee

[15:52–17:00]

• Lucy is described as “introverted and studious,” comes from a wealthy family, also followed a privileged, pressure-free path after school.
• Later receives a $5,000/month allowance from her mother as she experiments with social media and TikTok fame alongside her two triplet sisters.

Failed Ambitions & Reconnection

[12:42–15:52]

• Post-prison, Oliver leads a string of failed businesses—restaurant, dropshipping, and even a supposed subscription insulin service—mostly funded by outside investors.
• “He’s hellbent on making a lot of money really quick.” – Patia ([15:51])

[15:52–18:59]

• Oliver reconnects with Lucy Lee in 2018; both are drawn by a taste for wealth, social media attention, and fast living.
• They move in together after just two dates.

Marriage of Convenience and the COVID-Era Scam

[22:27–23:43]

• To circumvent COVID travel restrictions, they marry via Zoom at the airport.

[24:00–27:00]

• In Europe, Oliver schemes to profit from the pandemic by securing PPE deals. He meets Tyler Pratt, an alleged drug dealer, who invests $470,000.
• Tyler wants his money back as Oliver’s business once again falters.

Escalation: The Murder Plot

[27:27–33:13]

• Facing pressure from Tyler to repay, Oliver and Lucy lure Tyler (and his pregnant girlfriend Jordan Romano) to a fake business meeting at a remote warehouse, under the pretense of a future marijuana grow-op.
• Oliver shoots both Tyler and Jordan (five shots at Tyler, three at Jordan), takes their cash and phones, drags Jordan from a car, and abandons both at the scene.
• Jordan, critically wounded, manages to flag down a motorist and survives; her unborn child does not.

Notable Moment:

• “If you shoot a gun at someone multiple times, your intention is to kill them.” – Hannah ([43:31])

Attempted Escape & Apprehension

[33:14–37:11]

• Oliver and Lucy hurriedly dump evidence, use pre-purchased fake IDs, and flee Canada, eventually reaching Slovakia and then Hungary.
• Authorities quickly identify them; they’re apprehended in Budapest in June 2021, months after the crime.

Legal Proceedings and Aftermath

[37:51–44:23]

• Lucy is extradited without contest, Oliver fights extradition.
• Lucy tries to claim Tyler was dangerous and that the murders were not premeditated. Her story is inconsistent and not believed.
• Both attempt to blame Tyler at trial; their stories diverge but neither is seen as credible.

[44:23–45:46]

• In May 2024, both are sentenced to life in prison, not eligible for parole for 25 years.
• Jordan, survivor of the shooting, testifies powerfully at trial and receives a civil judgment after her ordeal.

Notable Quote:

• “On this night, [Jordan] lost both Tyler and their baby.” – Patia ([42:30])
• “It’s so gross. The crime seems so clearly premeditated, so horrible to cover up what was probably already an illegal operation of an investment fraud." – Hannah ([45:01])

Reflections & Ripple Effects

[46:03–48:27]

• Both hosts reflect on how neither Oliver nor Lucy ever truly experienced consequences until this final crime.
• Jordan’s survival and testimony become pivotal for justice.

Notable Quote:

• “They both have this same affliction, which is inflated self-intelligence or a view of themselves. And clearly they're not good together. Like, talk about toxic relationship.” – Hannah ([47:31])

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Credit cards and free reign. It was a free for all.” – Patia ([04:46])
• “You need a burner phone, stupid. You need two burner phones.” – Patia, on their botched cover-up ([34:50])
• “I do not drive my husband. I am there to relax and give feedback.” – Patia, humorously drawing boundaries ([20:02])
• “They go around the city dumping any evidence… Lucy had a wig on at some point, like a blonde wig.” – Patia ([33:46])
• “It doesn’t seem like even today, Oliver [and] Lucy have accepted responsibility. They're both still trying to appeal.” – Patia ([46:22])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–02:12 — Ads, episode disclaimer
• 03:00 — Story Introduction: North York, Ontario, and main characters
• 05:14–07:35 — Drunk driving death and its aftermath
• 12:42–15:52 — Failed businesses and rekindled romance
• 17:10–18:59 — Lucy’s social media persona & wealthy upbringing
• 23:43–27:00 — COVID marriage, bogus business, meeting Tyler Pratt
• 27:27–33:13 — The murder at the warehouse
• 34:15–37:11 — Escape, European hideout, and capture
• 39:22–44:23 — Legal fallout, bail, and shifting stories
• 44:23–45:46 — Sentencing and the survivors’ response
• 46:03–48:27 — Reflections on accountability and consequences

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Recommendations & Closing

[48:33–59:29]

• Hannah recommends “Valley of Shadows”, a Pushkin podcast about an LA sheriff’s deputy’s mysterious disappearance, and “Heartwood” by Amity Gage, a thriller about a missing hiker.
• Patia reminisces on previous cases, the challenges of searches in the wilderness, and the importance of thorough investigations.

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Episode Tone

The discussion is empathetic yet candid, as the hosts don’t shy away from criticizing systemic privilege or the calculated (if flawed) planning of the perpetrators. They use moments of humor and personal reflection to break up the heavy content and offer a solution-oriented, victim-centered perspective.

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Summary Takeaways

• Privilege and a lack of consequences for youthful recklessness can, if unchecked, become lethal.
• The murder and attempted murder were driven by greed and arrogance, with the perpetrators believing they could outsmart the justice system.
• Survivor Jordan Romano’s resilience and testimony were critical to justice being served.
• Both Oliver and Lucy were ultimately sentenced to life imprisonment—closing a case whose ripple effects devastated multiple families but also saw some measure of justice and healing.

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This summary is intended to cover all core content and context, preserving the conversational and empathetic tone of the original hosts, while emphasizing key details and insights of the case.

Transcript

[Patia Eaton]

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[Hannah Smith]

See Terms this story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[Patia Eaton]

The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right. Media. Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm Hann Smith. If you've been listening to the show and enjoying it, it would help us out so much if you took a few minutes to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. We're still a new show, so it really does help to get the word out. Also, a quick reminder, we have merch. We have a really cute tote bag with our logo on it. You can find [e-mail] so I have.

[Patia Eaton]

A story for you today that involves some up to no good stuff. A murder, and then they flee the country.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

So this is sort of like lot of hits. Yeah, we're gonna hit every beat here.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for a good story, and.

[Patia Eaton]

It'S a tough one.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

All right. So today's story begins in North York, Ontario. It's 2008, and two students in different social circles are in their final years of preparatory school.

[Hannah Smith]

Wait, is that like high school?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

It sounds so much smarter. I know, but since we're in Canada, it's preparatory.

[Hannah Smith]

Preparatory. Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

So one of these students is Lucy Lee, and she's introverted and studious. And just briefly, she dates this very extroverted popular guy named Oliver Karafa. So Oliver is actually from Slovakia, but he's attending school in Canada. His whole family moved there. He's from money. His parents owned bakeries in Slovakia. And when he turns 16, his parents, who are wealthy, decide they want to.

[Hannah Smith]

Move back to Slovakia.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

So wait, was he born in the.

[Patia Eaton]

U.S. no, he in Canada. In Canada. He is from Slovakia, I think. Yeah. And so he's born there, they moved to Ontario. But when he's a teenager at 16, his parents are like, we're moving back. And so what do they do? They say, you can stay here.

[Hannah Smith]

Really?

[Patia Eaton]

At 16? Yeah. So he and his two sisters get an apartment and according to classmates, basically had credit cards and free reign.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. And his sisters are younger than him.

[Patia Eaton]

They're older. I think they're older.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, so there's like a legal adult somewhere in there.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I think they were all teenagers, I think. But it sounds like they were doing whatever they wanted and buying whatever they wanted. It was a free for all.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So Oliver's relationship with Lucy ends pretty quickly, and neither one of them seems to think very much of it. They graduate and go about their lives. So Oliver, after graduating, he starts partying. And not a surprise. Not a surprise.

[Hannah Smith]

From what we've heard.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Like, what do you do? You're 16, you have your own apartment and credit cards at that age. So you graduate from high school and what, now you're ready to, like, buckle in and go to school every day? Not gonna happen. So he's, like, all over the party scene, and he's really into this idea of being an entrepreneur and making a lot of money. I mean, he watched his parents, they're successful entrepreneurs, so I see where he kind of got the itch. And Lucy goes to university and she starts studying and by all accounts, is doing well there. And so on April 3, 2012, after a night out with friends, he's behind the wheel of his Range Rover. He's been drinking heavily, and his friend David is in the passenger seat. And Oliver hits the gas, and the car reaches speeds over double the speed limit, which was about over 60 miles an hour. And he hits a pole and the car, it's a Range Rover, it's a huge car. And it splits in half.

[Hannah Smith]

My God.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so half of the car ends up just on the other side of the street. I mean, it's a devastating accident. And Oliver walks away almost unscathed. He has, like, a few scrapes. Right. But David is dead.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, my God.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I mean, it's terrible.

[Hannah Smith]

And he was drinking and driving.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. His blood alcohol limit was nearly four times the legal limit.

[Hannah Smith]

God.

[Patia Eaton]

So not just drinking, but, like, wasted.

[Hannah Smith]

Should never have been driving.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And there's no, like, drinking and driving. That's safe. But he was belligerently drunk. So David was 24 at the time. And he passes away. He's killed instantly in the crash.

[Hannah Smith]

It's sad.

[Patia Eaton]

It's so sad. And Oliver is then charged with criminal negligence causing death, dangerous driving causing death, and impaired driving causing death. You know, the crash was so serious that actually, even though David was wearing his seatbelt, he was projected from the vehicle, like it was really bad. He was a personal trainer. That's how he knew Oliver is. Oliver was his client and they became friends. And I actually saw the CCTV footage of Oliver being walked into the police station that night after the crash. And I'm not discounting anything about what he did, but he looks like a child. I think he was 19 at the time that this happened. And thinking back to how he's been living in this apartment alone since he.

[Hannah Smith]

Was 16, no adult supervision, really, just sort of being allowed to do whatever he wants to do for years.

[Patia Eaton]

Exactly.

[Hannah Smith]

It's no excuse, but, like, you can see how Life choices would lead him to a place where he's reckless. Reckless.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, totally reckless. And in this footage of him being walked into the police station, he asks, is David okay? He's told David is dead in that moment. And he seems in the footage very upset. You know, he's obviously in shock, but he doesn't seem like he thinks he's walking out of there.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

But according to friends of both of theirs, because they knew a lot of mutual people, because Oliver was going to the gym David worked at, that crowd started to say that Oliver was very quickly more worried about if he was going to jail than remorseful about causing the crash that killed his friend.

[Hannah Smith]

Interesting. And so were they, or do we know? Like, were they talking to him?

[Patia Eaton]

I don't know that he was talking to them, but I think that they were all still running in the same social circle, because although he was arrested and charged, he gets a lawyer and he fights the charges. I think he ends up pleading, but.

[Hannah Smith]

Does he get out on bail?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So what ends up happening is Oliver is sentenced to five years imprisonment and banned from driving for 15 years. I'm pretty sure he pled guilty to those charges and decided, okay, five years. And then he's banned from driving for 15 years, which, like, I'm fine with that. I mean, that's a really long time. But it's also. You did kill someone.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so he was 21 by the time he was sentenced. And at sentencing, he did express remorse and take responsibility for his actions. And, you know, I can't totally say how I feel about the sentence. 19 is really young. But, yeah, like we were saying, he lived without his parents and any supervision from 16 on. So that is a recipe for disaster. But there's a lot of people that grow up in difficult situations and they don't behave that way. So. So Oliver gets to prison and, you know, although he's expressed remorse at his sentencing, he's killed his friend by driving recklessly. He pretty quickly starts to just think, how can I get out of here?

[Hannah Smith]

How can I get out early?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. He's not following the rules. He's attempting to smuggle drugs into the prison, which allegedly his sisters were the people that were trying to help him do that.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so still, despite those things, he's granted parole in 2017. So three years into his five year sentence.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

That is so surprising.

[Patia Eaton]

I was surprised by that too, because this is his first offense. Right. And he's only 19 when he's sentenced. And so you think about how does our justice system best function? Now, this is in Canada, but, like, for all of us, universally, I think if we're going to put someone in prison for a crime, let's make it count so that they don't do this again, so that when they get out, they're a changed person. There's a lot of issues with prison systems all over the world.

[Hannah Smith]

One could argue that prison never really rehabilitates people. I mean, I don't know about never, but it's not known to be this great rehabilitation situation. But, yeah, it's so complicated because obviously he was really young. A lot of us have been really young and dumb and made bad choices, but his choice took the life of someone else, which is a really big deal. And so three years, it just doesn't seem like that much to me. But, you know.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, I can imagine how David's friends and family felt about that after three years, especially when he wasn't behaving in prison.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so what we start to see when this happens is, at least from my perspective, Oliver sort of developing this really reinforcing this idea that there are no real consequences.

[Hannah Smith]

Right. Yeah. Because it's not like he got away with anything. He still went to prison. But there is a vibe about him that I don't know. Right. Because I only know what you're telling me. But I can kind of imagine this kind of guy. He seems really confident.

[Patia Eaton]

Like, yeah, he's got a range rover at 19.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Everything is given to him. So there's a certain kind of attitude there that you're like, do you think you're invincible?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Do you think you're invincible? And so as soon as he gets out, Oliver is ready to leave his old identity behind. You know, I think he probably did have some shame and embarrassment about the accident causing the death of his friend and being sentenced to prison. But it doesn't really seem to be enough to get him to reflect about the kind of person he wants to be. And he starts just, like, very quickly, new business ventures. He. He's thinking entrepreneurial, but it's fast and loose as far as, like, business plans and money. There's a long list of businesses he starts and they all fail.

[Hannah Smith]

What kind of businesses are we talking here?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So on his LinkedIn, which is still up at the time of recording this, at least the About Me section reads, I combine my passion for success with my passion for marketing, communications, and storytelling. And as we get into it, I think we'll see where the storytelling really takes shape. But he opens a restaurant called Food Society on the ground floor of a hotel and attempts to be this sort of brunch, coffee shop situation. You know, you can kind of see the tie back to, like, being from a family that owns bakeries.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Patia Eaton]

It fails very quickly, and he moves on to the next idea. And that is something called Zen Homemart, which is a drop shipping business. And then something called. I think it's pronounced insulact, I'm not sure. But the idea behind that third company is that it's a subscription insulin to people and in the US and it also quickly fails. So you can see, like, okay, you can kind of make the connection with the restaurant, and then you're on to drop shipping, and then you're on to insulin subscriptions. Yeah, it feels very much like, strange. Strange.

[Hannah Smith]

I don't know. I feel like there's drop shipping businesses.

[Patia Eaton]

Like, I don't even know what that is.

[Hannah Smith]

I feel like it's like every time I'm advertised, somehow I don't know how. This is in my algorithm for, like, start a business and, like, make a ton of money quickly. It's always drop shipping.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, okay.

[Hannah Smith]

And I mean, like, you know, there are people that have created very successful dropshipping endeavors. But for some reason, it pings to me something about someone who is a young entrepreneur who's trying to make money quickly and thinks, I'll just get into drop shipping.

[Patia Eaton]

Right.

[Hannah Smith]

But might not actually really know what he's doing.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Or maybe have taken the time to, like, learn and maybe come up underneath someone else and shadow them and understand the business. Because, you know, to build these businesses, he's taking on investors, he's getting money from people.

[Hannah Smith]

Interesting. So it's not failing and funded by his parents?

[Patia Eaton]

No, I don't think so. And that is, I think, one of the most perplexing things about Oliver and so many people that we come to learn maybe are not good business people is that they have this charisma. They have this ability to raise money. They have lots of ideas.

[Hannah Smith]

It is so wild how truly, if you want to raise money for a business, you need charisma. And how many people actually aren't that good at business?

[Patia Eaton]

I know.

[Hannah Smith]

Maybe don't even have that good of a plan, but are just able to convince people that they do and that they're trustworthy and that, yes, you should give me your money. I mean, it's like, yeah, yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Because at this point, you know, this guy is so young, he's in his 20s, and he's already gone to prison. I mean, if he can do it, and so why can't I? Right. And so. And, you know, failure is part of being an entrepreneur, for sure. And so I don't want it to seem like these business failures in and of themselves are indicative of anything, but. Yeah. What it shows us is he's, I think, hell bent on making a lot of money really quick. And so in 2018, Oliver reconnects with Lucy.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, okay.

[Patia Eaton]

And, you know, she was this introverted, studious girl from preparatory school.

[Hannah Smith]

This is about 10 years after they originally dated.

[Patia Eaton]

A whole decade.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Patia Eaton]

So they're now adults and they're very different. But like Oliver, Lucy comes from a wealthy family.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

And her parents are financial advisors and business owners. And after graduating, at first it seems like she's following suit. Right. She goes to university. She does really well. She got a job selling insurance, which acquired her to obtain this accreditation to do that. And she starts working for her mother as a financial advisor. But. But like one of Oliver's many businesses, Lucy's career didn't quite last. And she decided, okay, I'm gonna take a few years off. And she goes to her parents with this plan. I'm gonna take a few years off and try to figure out what I wanna do. She's really intrigued by social media and fun fact. Lucy's a triplet.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So she has two sisters, and they all look very similar. They're fraternal triplets, but they look very similar. So Lucy's mother agrees, and she gives her an allowance of $5,000 a month.

[Hannah Smith]

What a dream.

[Patia Eaton]

What a dream. That's a great allowance. And Lucy is sort of drawn to the limelight, and she finds her light on TikTok.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Which makes sense because you said it's like, 2018. Yeah. And she's in her mid to late 20s, so I feel like this all lines up with maybe feeling a little disillusioned by the career path, wanting to do something different and creative. Plus, social media is popping off, so all adding up.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Go see if you can make money on TikTok. Like, great. Good for you. Her and her sister start a TikTok page where they all take pictures together in similar outfits. Some of the outfits are pretty risque. I don't really have an opinion on that. I'm just giving you, you know, some imagery here. Like, she's promoting herself online a lot, and she's no longer this quiet, introverted girl that she was when they first dated, actually, an article in the Toronto sun called her a rich girl, social media darling.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So, I mean, I don't know. TikTok is interesting. Right. Sometimes I watch those people where their whole video is just them watching someone else's video.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And I'm like, well, that's a sweet gig. Yeah. You're just sitting there staring at the camera, and then you just. You're done.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. But truly, it's like, with the rise of TikTok, I feel like we see people trying to figure out what the thing is that will catch fire. And even if it's a simple idea of, like, watching someone else's video and commenting on it, someone had to be the first one to think of that and then try it. And then it's like, actually, there's a ton of people that want to watch just this content. Right. So, you know, I think it's kind of like Lucy sounds like she's like, of her time and generation, where everyone, you know, all these young people, they're sort of trying to figure out how to get famous online. And the fact that she's a triplet, she's kind of leaning into that little niche thing.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, totally. And, hey, she's got a sweet allowance, so go do it. See what you can make happen with that, you know, I mean, at least she's doing something.

[Hannah Smith]

Totally.

[Patia Eaton]

So 2018, they're back together, and.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, they get back together.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, they get back together after they meet, and it's pretty fast and furious. And they're both very drawn to this idea of wealth and maybe a little bit of fame, but I think most of them was something they really connected on.

[Hannah Smith]

Interesting. Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And they move in really quickly. One article I read about this said after two dates.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, my gosh, that is quick.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I wasn't able to figure out if she lived alone or with her sisters, but they move in together very quickly. And of course, Oliver still can't drive.

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

So she's driving him everywhere in her Mercedes, I think, some sort of luxury car that she owns. And everyone is different, and every relationship is different. This stopped me in my tracks. I do not drive my husband. I am there to relax and give feedback. Okay. Like, I'm not gonna be driving him.

[Hannah Smith]

This would be a deal breaker for you.

[Patia Eaton]

It's a deal breaker. If he loses his license, we are going nowhere.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

I do enough. I do enough.

[Hannah Smith]

You need someone in the relationship who likes to drive.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. You know, that's key.

[Hannah Smith]

But it sounds like she didn't really have a choice. She had to be the driver.

[Patia Eaton]

Like Red Flag.

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Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra NSIP Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures.

[Patia Eaton]

Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian?

[Hannah Smith]

Because he took such good care when.

[Patia Eaton]

Redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids, all eight of them should something happen to us. Are you my dad now?

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[Patia Eaton]

So after two years of dating, Covid happens and Oliver and Lucy decide they cannot stay in lockdown. That is so boring. They need a European vacation.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

But there's a problem. Lucy can't travel due to travel restrictions because she's Canadian. Oliver is Slovakian and so he's allowed to travel to Europe because the rules are different.

[Hannah Smith]

Was there a travel restriction on Canadians not being able to leave Canada. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So there were travel restrictions on Canadian citizens and not on.

[Hannah Smith]

Whatever.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Slovakians. And so they solved this problem by getting married at the airport via Zoom. Okay. So I don't know how they pulled that off, but.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So they go to the airport, and that's how they find out that she can't travel. And they're like, okay, well, we'll just.

[Hannah Smith]

Get married right now.

[Patia Eaton]

Right now.

[Hannah Smith]

And then that should be able to allow her to travel immediately.

[Patia Eaton]

I guess so.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. You know, I got married in my living room in between Zoom calls. I'm not knocking a Zoom wedding, but it's quick. Okay. Like, that is wild. At an airport, last minute.

[Hannah Smith]

So just the logistics of it alone, it's like, how did they find someone to marry them? I mean, you know, I know anything's possible.

[Patia Eaton]

They're very, again, resourceful. So they go. And they go on this European vacation. I think they're there for a couple of months. And while they're over there, Oliver gets an idea. He's like, here's a business I could get into. I could sell personal protective equipment. PPE in Europe. There was a shortage. That's how he gets the idea. And so when they get back, Oliver meets someone named Tyler Pratt. Now, Tyler Pratt, he's an alleged drug dealer. He has a lot of money. You know, I'll get into the alleged drug dealer part of this later, but for context, that's how he's got money, supposedly. And he puts in a total of $470,000. And they become fast friends. You know, they get birthday gifts and lots of texts back and forth. They go on double dates because Tyler has a girlfriend named Jordan Romano, and all is well. But, of course, Oliver's not great at running businesses. And pretty soon, Tyler wants some money back. Yeah. And they met. Allegedly. Go ahead. Sorry.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm imagining this business is purchasing PPE from somewhere and then selling it to people in Europe.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

But somehow. But somehow the business is failing.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I imagine that Oliver spent the money.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. I feel like something else is going on, because this is a pretty straightforward business plan. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen his business plan, but, yeah, this is something in high demand. Unless he thought he could do it and then couldn't source it anywhere. It just doesn't make sense. How is this an immediate failure? He must be spending the money.

[Patia Eaton]

Well, allegedly, Tyler met them because he was selling cocaine to Lucy.

[Hannah Smith]

Gotcha.

[Patia Eaton]

So I don't know what the extent of Their drug use was. But allegedly, that is how he met Lucy.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

But Tyler wants his money back, and he's not getting it. And Oliver's got a lot of excuses. Tyler's a father. He has two daughters from a previous relationship, and he is a very involved dad. He loves his kids. And so Tyler's going to. He's our victim in this story. And so I just want to say, yeah, he was an alleged drug dealer, but I think it's relevant for context, but it doesn't diminish what ends up happening.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, there's all different kinds of drug dealers, too, you know. Seriously. And it's a job.

[Patia Eaton]

It's a job. And so Jordan Romano, Tyler's girlfriend, becomes pregnant. And after Tyler starts getting the idea that, you know, Oliver's not being honest because he's seeing documents come in that don't necessarily look real. They're fake invoices and fake reimbursements. And just. Tyler's no dummy.

[Hannah Smith]

He's like, this has investment scam written all over it.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so eventually he's like, I'm gonna put a date on this and you're going to pay me back. And so that date is March 1, 2021. He says, you're gonna pay me back by then, with interest.

[Hannah Smith]

Gotcha.

[Patia Eaton]

But Oliver can't pay him back. He has done something with the money. I don't know what. Maybe he is just a lousy businessman. Maybe they spent it on drugs and partying, but he's not paying him back. So Oliver and Lucy hatch a plan. And the plan that I'm gonna tell you that they carry out when we get into this whole thing coming to light, they have different stories on how this came to be, but Oliver and Lucy do. Oliver and Lucy.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

But this is what happened. So although Tyler wants his money back from Oliver, probably like any smart businessman, Tyler is not totally cutting Oliver off. Right. He's trying to maintain the friendship in.

[Hannah Smith]

A way, because he doesn't want to just ghost him and never hear from him or see his money again, I imagine.

[Patia Eaton]

And so Oliver and Lucy decide what they're going to do is kind of throw out this Hail Mary, one more business idea for Tyler. And the idea that they have is that they're going to lure Tyler to a warehouse under the guise of the warehouse being a property owned by Lucy's parents, where they can maybe have a marijuana growing operation.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

That's. You know, why I think Tyler being a alleged drug dealer is relevant, is that this could be appealing to him. Gotcha and so they plan to meet him there on February 28, 2021. So right before this, March 1. Dateline.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And the plan is that they're going to meet at this warehouse, they're going to look through it, kind of talk about this marijuana grow operation, and then they are going to go to dinner at this, like, celebrity hotspot. So Jordan is with Tyler, and they show up, and it's nighttime, and Lucy and Oliver are there, and Tyler and Jordan are there at this warehouse. And Lucy and Oliver get there first, and there's a chain on the gate because Lucy's parents don't own this warehouse. This is all completely made up. This is just a remote location for them to do something awful. And so Oliver cuts the chain, they go to the door of this warehouse, and Tyler arrives with Jordan and their Range Rover.

[Hannah Smith]

And so is Jordan still pregnant?

[Patia Eaton]

Yes.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

At this time, I think Jordan's 12 weeks pregnant. She's pregnant.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So Tyler and Jordan arrive at the warehouse and meet Oliver and Lucy there. As expected, Tyler and Jordan go meet them at the door. And then it's really cold outside. It's February, and we're in Ontario. So Jordan's like, I'm gonna go wait in the car. Because Oliver is like, I don't know where the realtor is who's supposed to let us in and show us the property. And they're taking forever. It's, like, sort of strange. And Tyler's like, okay. And so Jordan goes and waits in the car, and Lucy's like, you know, I'm gonna go wait in the car with you because it's cold. And apparently in the car, Lucy and Jordan are kind of making small talk. But it gets kind of awkward. Cause Jordan's like, this. This is strange. And Lucy gets then out of the car. What happens next is Tyler is like, okay, Oliver, what's really going on here? And Oliver then points a gun at Jordan in the Range Rover and says something to the effect of, get out of here, Joe. But as he's saying that, he starts shooting and he fires, I think, three shots at Jordan, who's in the driver's seat of the car. And one of the shots goes through her heart.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, my God.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. It hits her right in the chest. Then, of course, Tyler is like, what is happening? Tyler and Jordan were not armed, Right. They were there to meet their friends for the night and explore this opportunity with them.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so in the next moment, Oliver shoots at Tyler. I think he shoots five times. And Tyler falls to the ground. It's terrible. He shoots him through the lungs, and his lungs begin filling with blood. And I think it takes like an hour until he passes away. I mean, it's horrible. And while this is happening, it's unclear where Lucy is. She goes on to say, oh, I was so far away. I wasn't there. But I'm like, well, you were sitting in the car with Jordan and then.

[Hannah Smith]

You got out and where did you go?

[Patia Eaton]

Right. And so what Oliver and Lucy do next is they go to the car where Jordan is, where she's been shot, and they take her out of the the car and throw her on the pavement. They go and get the cash that Tyler had on him, which was $20,000. They take their phones from them from Tyler and from Jordan, and they take the Range Rover that Tyler and Jordan arrived in and their Audi, their Audi that they had purchased right before this, and they leave. And Oliver had arranged for someone to buy both of these cars.

[Hannah Smith]

So they just leave Tyler and Jordan laying there.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. For dead.

[Hannah Smith]

Dying.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. They pull Jordan out of the car so violently that one of her, like, knee high boots came off. I mean, if you've ever pulled off a knee high boot, like that's not easy to do. Yeah. And so they flee, and their whole plan is now really taking shape. Oliver has prearranged for someone to buy these cars in a shady deal for really cheap to get them.

[Hannah Smith]

Which means it was premeditated.

[Patia Eaton]

Premeditated, yeah. And so. So he sells these cars really quickly to this person, and they go back to another friend's condo, and they go to this other friend's condo because earlier that day they had said, we need to borrow your SIM card because they didn't want their cell phones traced to this warehouse.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

And the friend was under the impression that they were going to this warehouse for this big meeting that they didn't want Lucy's parents to know about because they would be upset by it for some reason. So they didn't know anything about these murders taking place. They get their SIM card back, and then they go to Lucy's condo, their shared condo where they live. Right. And they watch the news, and they see on the news that Jordan has flagged down a motorist. She did not die. And that motorist called 911 and Jordan is alive.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, my gosh.

[Patia Eaton]

And so they had already acquired fake identification, fake passports, already planned, I think, to flee, but now they're like, oh, shoot. She can tell them exactly what happened.

[Hannah Smith]

So in theory. Cause Jordan, you know, has been taken to A hospital, we assume. We don't even know. Like, she might have already told authorities who it was. Right.

[Patia Eaton]

Like, they don't know anything except that Jordan didn't die.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Which has to have been a crucial part of their plan to keep this a secret.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so they go around the city dumping any evidence. I mean, their clothes are blood stained, for example, and Lucy had a wig on at some point, like a blonde wig. And so they're going and they're dumping the evidence and they flee. And their first move is that they're flying to Montreal, and from there they board a flight and get to Europe and they go to Slovakia, because that's where Oliver's parents live, and eventually to Hungary.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

And they use these fake passports that they've acquired and not sure where they were obtained, but it was obviously in preparation for these murders.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so they are wanted fugitives because Jordan has lived. It is not a secret what happened. And also just so idiotic because. I'm sorry, but even in 2021, how do you not know that taking someone's physical cell phone, that doesn't help you. All of your text messages can be retrieved.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. What are we talking about here?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, like, why would they do that? You need a burner phone, stupid. You need to burner phones.

[Hannah Smith]

It's a lesson.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so they're on the run.

[Hannah Smith]

And so authorities, like very quickly know exactly who they are and that they've done this. But they've already fled the country.

[Patia Eaton]

They fled the country.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers, growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures why.

[Patia Eaton]

Have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I.

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Knew I could trust him to bury.

[Patia Eaton]

My sweet Nibbles after his untimely end.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Huh, Nibbles gone too soon.

[Patia Eaton]

May he scurry in peace.

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[Patia Eaton]

And so, eventually, they're apprehended in Hungary, in Budapest. Wow. In this scene with lots of clubs, lots of nightclubs and fancy restaurants. And they're apprehended in June of 2021. So remember, this happens at the very end of February. They're not apprehended till. So that whole time they're wanted fugitives.

[Hannah Smith]

You have to wonder what's going on with the two of them during that time.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. You know, I would assume also because of the area they were found in, that they were just living, you know, like nothing had happened. Going to clubs, like, can you imagine?

[Hannah Smith]

No, no. Like, wow.

[Patia Eaton]

I can't imagine at all, actually.

[Hannah Smith]

No.

[Patia Eaton]

Let alone under these circumstances, ever going to a club.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, not at this point in my life.

[Patia Eaton]

Seriously. Yeah. And so Lucy agrees right away, once they're arrested, to return to Canada. But Oliver fights extradition. And so now they're being separated. And that was going to happen anyway, whether or not one was extradited and one wasn't. But for the months that they've been gone, the story of, you know, this murder and attempted murder has been all over the news, as has a bunch of camera footage of them on cctv, in elevators and around the city dumping the evidence. So it's not a secret. We know who was there that night. But it's just a matter of figuring out, okay, what happened, because Jordan, she knows that Oliver shot her, and she knows that Lucy was there. But after she was shot, it all happened so fast, and it's not clear. Like, did she see Tyler get shot? Does she know the full extent of their business dealings? Right. Those are sort of the unknowns that I think Oliver and Lucy begin to sort of see if they can use to their advantage.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

But Lucy starts talking to authorities right away, and she tries to place the blame on Tyler Pratt, the victim. You know, the murder victim. She's like, he's dangerous, and my husband did not plan to kill him. But her story is, as you can imagine, poorly thought out and a total mess, and nobody believes her.

[Hannah Smith]

I wonder if they found the friend who lent them the SIM card. There's that piece. There's also the guy that they sold the car to. I don't know if they could find that guy.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, actually, I'm glad you said that, because it reminded me. The Audi that Oliver and Lucy arrived to the warehouse in that night, they had purchased that, I believe, from a friend of Lucy's family.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

And they had purchased it very recently, before the murder. Okay, so. So it's like. Okay, so you buy a getaway car right before. Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. There's a lot of evidence that's coming together that shows this was premeditated.

[Patia Eaton]

A lot. And so a bail hearing happens in December of 2021. And that means, you know, they've been in prison for that time, probably awaiting their trial, trying to figure out if they're gonna plead. And Lucy's family really advocates for her to be allowed on house arrest with bail. They swear up and down, you know, we'll keep her in. She won't have access to credit cards or cars. And the court agrees.

[Hannah Smith]

Unbelievable. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And I believe Lucy's bill was $3 million. It was one of the highest bills ever set there.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so what does she do on house arrest? She violates her terms.

[Hannah Smith]

Not a surprise.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, not a surprise. She goes to lunch with her sisters and a possible witness for the trial.

[Hannah Smith]

My God.

[Patia Eaton]

I mean, horrible, right? And I think it also shows. We'll touch on this later. But Lucy sort of leans into being almost, like, ditzy. Like, I'm, you know, the dumbest person in the room. Like, that word gets used. Like, she claims to be stupid, like, I was totally coerced. But you see her making these calculated efforts. I think you go to lunch with your sisters. And a possible witness. Like, is that a coincidence?

[Hannah Smith]

Probably not.

[Patia Eaton]

And so obviously, the court does not think highly of that decision. And she's ordered to stay in prison until her trial.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And Oliver Karafa, Hungary and Canada come to the terms of his extradition. He's extradited to Canada and also now awaiting trial. And his story starts to be, I shot in self defense. Tyler's really dangerous. He's a drug dealer. He's very dangerous. And he was threatening to have people kill me and saying that if I reported him to poison police for these threats while he knew people who were police who would protect him. And there was no evidence of that. You know, Tyler's work may not have been above board, but he did not come armed to this meeting. He thought they were going to dinner afterward. He was not threatening Oliver's life.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So Jordan Romano. So Jordan survived. Her baby does not survive. And that is, you know, you can't put it into words how terrible that must have been for her, especially because.

[Hannah Smith]

The father of the child, her partner, is dead.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. On this night, she lost both Tyler and their baby.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

It's horrific. Over what? You know, money, like greed. I don't know. I mean, there is no explanation. Right. And so her testimony at the trial is extremely important. She's a witness to what happened, and she has an incredibly emotional story to tell. And so when Jordan takes the stand on the third day of trial, she says that she made eye contact with Oliver as he was shooting at her. And she said, it seems like he was almost like, saying, get out of here, Jo. Like, he almost meant it, but that he started shooting right away. So it wasn't like he gave her a few minutes to get out of there. He immediately started shooting. And she said they had locked eyes when he shot at her. And he didn't shoot just once. He shot multiple times. If you shoot a gun at someone multiple times, your intention is to kill them.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And I wasn't able to find out if Oliver knew that Jordan was pregnant. It doesn't matter. It's still awful. But just for the record, I wasn't able to find that out.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Now, Oliver and Lucy have, in a sense, turned on each other. But they both are saying Tyler's really dangerous. And that was the catalyst of all of this, is that we were scared of Tyler. But Lucy says, I wasn't even there. I was at least half a football field away, and I didn't know he was gonna kill him. And her story changes so much. She can't Keep it straight. Oliver's claiming self defense. It doesn't work. And on May 24, 2024, they're both sentenced to life, which in Canada means they will not be eligible for parole for at least 25 years. And I don't believe that the baby Jordan lost carried any separate charges. But I did want to acknowledge that.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

In Tyler's family. I watched an interview with them outside the courthouse when the verdict was delivered. Guilty. And they said that they were so relieved that they were found guilty. And they spoke so highly of the way the court handled the case and the way that Victim services helped them through this. Nothing good comes of this, but I was like, oh, it's nice to hear a family feel like they were treated that way.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Through things that were difficult experience. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

For sure. Cause.

[Patia Eaton]

Because sending through a trial of the murder of your son, your brother.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. I mean, it's horrible. And just. Even the attitude of both Lucy and Oliver and the fact that Oliver had killed someone before. Yes, it was accidental, but just the recklessness, the seeming lack of remorse, obviously. I don't know if they were remorseful or not, but. But them sort of trying to blame Tyler, the person who was killed here. It's so gross. And the crime seems so clearly premeditated, so horrible to cover up what was probably already an illegal operation of an investment fraud. So it's just, like, good. I'm glad they were caught. Like, their behavior didn't indicate that they were gonna change their ways, you know?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Not at all. And they're more dangerous together.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

I guess they're still married, technically. I don't know if that's, like, for any reason other than why bother if you're gonna spend the next 25 years in jail. I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, neither one of them had ever, I think, faced real consequences.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. That is such a wild story. I had not heard that. I had no idea where it was going. And it's crazy. I mean, what a wild story. And, you know, I'm glad they were caught. I'm glad that Jordan lived. Like, I'm sure her life is different than before forever, but that's amazing that she survived this.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I mean, to think of what it must have felt like to see your friend shooting at you and then have him and his girlfriend, who was also your friend, or his wife pulling you out of the car and leaving you there to die. I mean, that's unthinkable. And Jordan actually filed a civil suit and won. I couldn't tell exactly how much she won, but I think it was over a million dollars. It doesn't seem like even today, Oliver, Lucy has accepted responsibility. They're both still trying to appeal. And yeah, like I said, they're still married. So, yeah, this happened in Stoney Creek, Ontario. And the way that they planned it together, even though it was poor planning, they planned it. And the court talked so much about how stupid they were, and I thought that was kind of interesting. They pointed out this is the stupidest plan, but they did plan it. And I mean, the wig, the SIM card, I mean, they're making all of these moves in plain sight, you know, buying this Audi, swapping the phone thing, showing up at this warehouse. I mean, idiots.

[Hannah Smith]

It's like they both have this same affliction, which is inflated self intelligence or a view of themselves. And clearly they're not good together. Like, talk about toxic relationship.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I read one report that when they saw on the news that Jordan had lived, they went around looking for her because she wasn't named, but they were like, it couldn't be her. It couldn't be her. And then they couldn't find her body because obviously she wasn't dead. She had been. Wow.

[Hannah Smith]

They went back to the scene of the crime to try to see if her body was there.

[Patia Eaton]

One of the reports said that. But I couldn't figure out how that happened after they ditched the cars, because I heard that they ditched the cars.

[Hannah Smith]

Right, right.

[Patia Eaton]

And then took a cab and then went back to the apartment. But for what it's worth, I'm like, wow, imagine that moment. Yeah. Wild story. I'm glad that they were both found guilty and finally facing consequences.

[Hannah Smith]

Me too. Thanks for telling me that story. Yeah. Okay, so I have a couple quick recommendations.

[Patia Eaton]

Ooh, I would love them.

[Hannah Smith]

So the first one is a podcast. It is a limited series. Not all the episodes are out yet, so I have to say that as a caveat, but I started listening to it. It's called Valley of Shadows.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, I've heard of Valley of Shadows, but I haven't listened. So tell me.

[Hannah Smith]

It's from Pushkin. I heard about it because one of the investigative reporters, who's also one of the co hosts, two women who are both investigative reporters reporting on the story and they co host the podcast. And one of them, Hailey, is someone that I used to work with years ago. Oh, cool. Yeah. And she's. She's great. She's such a good reporter. I know that anything that she works on is going to be just really well done and thoughtful. So I feel like, I don't know I can fully stand behind. This is going to be a well done show. And so I started listening to it. It's interesting. It's basically they look into the disappearance of someone who worked for the Sheriff's department, this guy John Oujay. I don't know exactly how to say his last name. Some say his name is oj, Other people call him Owjay. And he was a long distance runner and would go on these big long runs out in the desert. And one day in 1998 he never came back from a run. You find that out very quickly. So on the surface it seems like someone who went missing in nature, which we've covered stories like that before. But there's a lot of questions about if there was actually foul play and a lot of questioning of the LA County Sheriff's Department handling of like the search and rescue, which is interesting because if you know anything about the LA County Sheriff's Department, there's been a lot written about like endemic problems and actually gang membership within the Sheriff's department since the 70s. You know, there's been a couple of investigations. There's a 15 part podcast from Knock LA that investigates like the history of gangs inside the department.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh wow.

[Hannah Smith]

And how, you know, it's that like classic thing of, you know, don't snitch and there's all like, I don't know. And so obviously it's not every person in the sheriff's department but that's sort of the reputation that they have had in the past. And so it makes you wonder. And there's a lot of questioning about like how they handled the case. So this is their investigation, the host's investigation into. And they go out to the desert, they interview a lot of people. It feels in some ways like an investigative podcast back when that was first a thing. Not to say investigative podcasts aren't great today because they are. There's so many of them. Not all of them are truly investigative where someone's like boots on the ground looking into a case. But that is how this one is.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And when I hear, okay, that someone who's a long distance runner and he's going for a run in nature and he goes missing, I would fully support any reasonable investigation into one, someone's disappearance and two, possible foul play, like that is why these law enforcement agencies exist, is to figure out what happens to people and to bring people to justice when it's called for. But, but I have my own experience Looking into and like, I don't know what happened here. I haven't listened to the show, but my, like, knee jerk reaction is, did he just go missing? And it reminds me of a story I was working on before you and I left our last company that we were working at. And this young man had gone missing on a hike. And he was a very physically fit young person. I believe he was in his late 20s, maybe early 30s, I think late 20s. And he was well prepared for this hike. Had set out water drops, had made plans to meet his then girlfriend at the end of the hike. And he was someone who lived a less conventional lifestyle. He was nomadic and traveled around. But yeah, there was a huge search for him and no one found anything. And so it was like, well, what happened to him? Did he owe someone money because he was a gambler and there was some drug use happening, you know, whatever. So there were all of these suspicions, right. Because they did this huge search and this took place in Joshua Tree, which.

[Hannah Smith]

Like, so much to search, so much.

[Patia Eaton]

To search, but by all accounts, a very thorough search. And this was someone who had done a lot of hiking. He had hiked the Appalachian trail many times. He was a seasoned hiker. And so there were a lot of sort of explorations into other possibilities of what had happened to him. And I don't know that the. Those were formal investigations, but, you know, there were a lot of people asking questions. Well, if he got injured or died on the hike, well, then why can't we find him?

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And eventually another hiker stumbled upon his remains, and he did die on the hike. It looks like he just got lost and had a medical event.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

You know, if you've ever been to Joshua Tree, there are areas that have more vegetation, but you can look out and see rocks. Right. Like so many rocks, but you can see a long distance. And I think it gives you. You this sense of, I can scan this area. But, you know, when you talk about remains and animals and wildlife, you know, taking things and moving things around, you could be three feet away from a bone and not see it.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And I think what ended up happening is someone spotted a backpack because, you know, it looks out of place. Your eye is drawn to this color that doesn't belong in nature. And that was the same thing with the Rachel Leduc hiker that went missing in Washington that I mentioned in our Sam Sayers episode.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, someone spotted her backpack.

[Patia Eaton]

Someone spotted a backpack or a sleeping bag, something like that.

[Hannah Smith]

Because it's like, not a color of nature. Right. And it also doesn't decompose, so, you know, it's gonna be out there.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And you know, she went years without being found. I think over two years without being found, and she wasn't that far from the trail. And, you know, nature is just ruthless.

[Hannah Smith]

So ruthless. I mean, we've talked about a lot of stories of people both on the podcast and off of missing people who went missing out in nature. And there's just so many elements depending on the environment that make it really difficult to find people.

[Patia Eaton]

Wildlife, water, rough terrain.

[Hannah Smith]

And it doesn't. I mean, I really don't think it matters if you are a seasoned hiker. I agree with you because we've seen that again and again. Sometimes people who are really seasoned overestimate their abilities and underestimate the power of nature. Dehydration can do a lot to you as well. I had the same thought about this story, especially when I first started listening. I was like, I bet he just died and hasn't been found. But they do a good job of kind of bringing up questions like, there actually wasn't a very thorough search for him. So the sheriff's department cut the search off prematurely and came up with a story about what happened that doesn't seem to be backed by evidence, as far as we know. So there are some things that make it weird. And especially a law enforcement officer and their organization not going above and beyond to find someone is weird to me. Right. But also, who knows? It could literally just be nature. I think that's one of the things that makes it an interesting story because it's. You're like, I don't know. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

You get to sort of decide for yourself. Are these, you know, the interviews with people out there, are they making you feel one way or the other way?

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

I mean, it's reminiscent too, of the. I think it's. In our second episode, I talk about the missing persons case I looked into in Tennessee. And one thing I always really appreciated about the law enforcement agencies that were just local sheriff's department that worked on the. This missing person's case, these two teenagers. Right. Is they didn't know what happened to them. They ended up that they had driven into this river and their car with their remains in it was later found in the river 20 some years later. Right. But, yes, there should have been a more thorough search of the river. I think we can all agree. But they never just said, well, they probably went into the river.

[Hannah Smith]

It was an open case.

[Patia Eaton]

It was an open case many years later. Right. And they didn't have, you know, the resources and the training and the manpower to, I think at the time make the right decisions or put the right people in place to ask these questions and do these searches. But they never gave up like that. Sheriff Steve Page in Sparta took my call and was like, okay, well what have you found out?

[Hannah Smith]

And was still invested in bringing answers to the community.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And I just always thought that that was sort of an underappreciated aspect of this particular case. When you're writing an article about two missing people, obviously the focus is just like what happened. But I think that everyone who worked on that case, one thing they did that doesn't happen all the time is they didn't just say, whatever, we're done with this, we're not going to find them.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. And you hear stories about investigators who, no matter how much time has gone on with the unsolved case, they're still invested in wanting to find those answers, especially if they were working hard on it and then weren't ever able to solve it.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

It.

[Hannah Smith]

There's usually a real desire to find answers there.

[Patia Eaton]

Totally.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay. So my second recommendation is sort of connected thematically, but it's fiction, so it's actually a book that I listen to the audiobook of. So I want to recommend the audiobook because if I'm not listening to a podcast, I'm probably listening to an audiobook. And with audiobooks I have a really particular standards that I'm like. I really like a good reader. And I also really enjoy when there's different voices. Not always, but when it's done well for the different characters. I like that. And I thought this book did that really well. It was an engaging and easy listen. I was able to follow along really well with it. Listening. It's called Heartwood by Amity Gage. It's a thriller and it's about this 42 year old woman, Valerie, who is hiking the Appalachian Trail and goes missing. And so you're following the investigator who's looking for her, the search and rescue, as well as some other people involved. So obviously it's fictional, but I thought it was really interesting and well done. And a story about a missing person which I always find to be intriguing.

[Patia Eaton]

Have to check it out.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So those are my recommendations.

[Patia Eaton]

Well, thanks so much for those and thanks everybody for listening. We'll be back next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram henifepodcast or blueskyenifepodcast.

[Hannah Smith]

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.

[Patia Eaton]

And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[Patia Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Patia Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

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Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, premiering February 11th exclusively on Prime Video. Critics called season one one of the year's best shows with over 40 million viewers worldwide. And on February 11th, the story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins and based upon characters created by James Patterson. Cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psycholog. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Kross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Kross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same Kross Watch season two of Kross new episodes weekly starting February 11th, only on Prime Video.