Off Record: Inside a Kratom Wrongful Death Case (with Michael Cowgill)

Summary

The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

Episode Title: Off Record: Inside a Kratom Wrongful Death Case (with Michael Cowgill)
Publish Date: June 4, 2026
Host: Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton
Guest: Attorney Michael Cowgill

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Episode Overview

In this deeply researched and emotionally resonant episode, hosts Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton engage attorney Michael Cowgill for an in-depth examination of a landmark wrongful death lawsuit involving Kratom—a controversial herbal supplement. The episode centers on the tragic death of Patrick Coyne, a 39-year-old father and husband, attributed to Kratom overdose, and explores the broader legal, medical, and societal implications of Kratom use and regulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Kratom?

[03:12–07:12]

• Kratom defined: A tropical evergreen tree native to Southeast Asia; its leaves are sold as powders, capsules, extracts, and drinks.
• Marketed uses: Mood enhancement, energy, and especially pain relief.
• Accessibility: Widely available in gas stations, convenience stores, smoke shops.
• Public perceptions: Divides communities between ardent supporters touting life-changing benefits and detractors calling it "gas station heroin."
• Notoriety in pop culture: Discussed by figures like Joe Rogan and featured in John Oliver’s reporting.
• Regulation: Currently not criminalized federally in the US; efforts to schedule or regulate it have met with significant pushback.

2. The Patrick Coyne Case: Personal Backstory

[10:44–13:08]

• Who was Patrick Coyne?
  • Industrious family man, Washington native, worked as a boat mechanic, loved camping and outdoor life.
  • Developed severe back pain from his job, wanted to avoid prescription opioids due to the risks of addiction.
  • Introduced to Kratom by a coworker, believing it safer than opioids.
• Kratom usage: Used "Kratom Divine" brand powder, mixing it with orange juice daily. Family and friends believed it was a safe, “all natural” alternative.
• Progression: Developed tolerance and addiction over years of use.

3. Chain of Events Leading to Death

[16:32–20:12]

• Routine day: Spent evening with family and friends, had a couple of alcoholic drinks (not present at toxicology).
• Death: Mixed Kratom, fell asleep in his recliner (sometimes used for sleep apnea); never woke up.
• Discovery: Found by his wife the next morning; emergency services unable to resuscitate.
• Investigation: Kratom packaging found; autopsy revealed cause as “toxic effects of mitragynine (Kratom).”

4. Wrongful Death Lawsuit: Legal Proceedings

[24:49–50:37]

• Motivation for legal action: Family sought understanding and advocacy, not just financial compensation.
  • “Folks are just lost. They're trying to understand, right? And this is very true in Kratom…” —Michael Cowgill [25:26]
• Scientific investigation:
  • Established that Patrick’s death was a direct result of Kratom overdose, with no other substances implicated.
  • Explored the pharmacological complexity: Kratom has over 40 alkaloids and acts on multiple brain receptors, causing risks like respiratory suppression, seizures, and liver failure.
  • “Kratom is itself polypharmacological...it acts on multiple receptors in our brains.” —Michael Cowgill [29:39]

5. Industry and Legal Nuances

[33:03–35:48]

• Legal gray zones: Kratom isn’t criminally illegal but is considered “adulterated and misbranded” by the FDA. Many vendors circumvent regulations by mislabeling products (“for cosmetic use,” “for agricultural purposes”).
• Kratom Divine, the defendant:
  • Small, family-run operation; made unfounded medical claims on their site, including COVID-19 relief.
  • Showed little remorse during trial.
  • “They had a blog ... that Kratom could help you with COVID. There’s no evidence of that.” —Michael Cowgill [36:15]
• Defense’s arguments: Attempted to shift blame to Coyne’s weight, sleep apnea, and supposed irresponsibility, but the jury was unconvinced.

6. The Trial: Strategies, Rulings, and Impact

[43:25–51:24]

• Notable courtroom moments:
  • Defense expert Dr. Oliver Grundman admitted Kratom is an opiate and could not rule out Kratom as cause of death—revelatory for the jury.
  • Kratom Divine’s marketing included false claims of safety and “self-limiting” nature (overdose impossible because of induced vomiting), which was disproven during trial.
• Outcome:
  • Jury awarded Patrick Coyne’s family $2.5 million, described as the county’s largest plaintiff verdict at the time.
  • Some labeling changes followed, and Kratom Divine ceased sales at certain outlets, but Kratom remains widely available.
  • “That was the highest verdict in a plaintiff’s case, at least as of, you know, that time. It changed, you know, the lives of this family.” —Michael Cowgill [48:50]

7. Broader Implications and Ongoing Debate

[53:27–69:41]

• Broader trends:
  • CDC has identified fatalities attributed to Kratom; contested by the Kratom lobby.
  • The American Kratom Association successfully blocked DEA scheduling in 2016.
  • Kratom industry compared to early cannabis regulation—difficulties obtaining insurance, banking, consistent oversight.
• Public health challenge:
  • Intersection of distrust in government, failures around opioid crisis, social media-driven misinformation, and lack of scientific consensus.
  • “If there’s anything we’ve lost in public discourse, it seems to be nuance. Multiple things can be true.” —Michael Cowgill [58:33]
• Regulatory gaps:
  • Age limits for purchase vary by state; sometimes there are none.
  • Kratom often sold in convenience stores, with ambiguous or misleading packaging.

8. Personal Reflections from the Hosts

[66:17–69:41]

• Accessibility and consumer vulnerability:
  • Kratom marketed alongside harmless supplements but with far greater risks.
  • Chronic pain sufferers particularly susceptible to marketing promises.
  • “There have been wrongful deaths that have been attributed to Kratom ... dozens and dozens of them.” —Patia Eaton [66:17]
• The need for more research
  • Hosts and guest agree on the importance of better regulation and robust scientific study to ensure safety and informed consumer choice.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the tragedy and confusion facing affected families:
  • “Folks are just lost. They're trying to understand, right? And this is very true in Kratom…” —Michael Cowgill [25:26]
• On the pharmacology of Kratom:
  • “It acts on multiple receptors in our brains. So things like oxycodone are very targeted ... Kratom is itself polypharmacological.” —Michael Cowgill [29:39]
• On industry defenses:
  • “Their argument was essentially, you know, Kratom is safe. Kratom doesn't cause death. They tried to character assassinate Patrick.” —Michael Cowgill [40:38]
• On nuanced reality:
  • “Multiple things can be true, right? Kratom may have some promise … but it can also be dangerous.” —Michael Cowgill [58:33]
• On the complexity for consumers:
  • "I don't blame consumers for being lost and confused when it comes to Kratom, particularly when you're talking about something where you go to a doctor and they don't even know what you're talking about." —Michael Cowgill [60:57]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:12–07:12] — Kratom background and public perceptions
• [10:44–13:08] — Patrick Coyne: life, pain, and decision to use Kratom
• [16:32–20:12] — Death overview and family’s discovery
• [24:49–29:39] — Legal/medical aspects and trial preparation
• [33:03–35:48] — Regulatory gray zones and manufacturer background
• [43:25–44:31] — Key revelations during the trial (defense admissions)
• [48:50–51:24] — Verdict and aftermath
• [53:27–56:29] — Kratom-related death statistics and national debate
• [58:33–61:13] — Societal context, need for nuance
• [66:17–69:41] — Personal reflections, consumer dangers, and call for research

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Knife provides a compelling, human-centered analysis of the risks posed by largely unregulated herbal supplements in America, with Kratom serving as a case study in the collision of marketing, regulatory patches, and the devastating ripple effects of a preventable death. The conversation underscores the vital need for public education, further study, and tighter oversight to protect vulnerable consumers—while honoring the memory of individuals like Patrick Coyne, whose story catalyzes real-world change.

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Transcript

[Patia Eaton]

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[Michael Cowgill]

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[Hannah Smith]

contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[Patia Eaton]

The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.

[Michael Cowgill]

It takes a while for an autopsy and toxicology report to be done. The family were shocked, right, when they heard the results that it was Kratom that caused this death.

[Patia Eaton]

Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Pasha Eaton.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm Hannah Smith. Today we're gonna speak with attorney Michael Cowgill about a wrongful death case of a 39 year old husband and father, Patrick Coyne. But before we get into that interview, we wanna talk about something called Kratom. You may have heard of it, you may have not. You may have seen it being sold at a gas station near you. This episode involves Kratom in a pretty major way. And so before we get into the case, we wanted to talk just a little bit about what it is and give anyone who might not be familiar some context for Kratom Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So Kratom, you've probably walked right past it before, even if you weren't aware, because it's pretty easy to come by. And it's actually spelled K R A T O M. It comes from a plant, a tropical evergreen tree native to Southeast Asia. And it can be marketed and sold as different things, a mood enhancer, energy booster, or pain reliever. People utilize it for all three of those reasons, but we hear about it a lot, especially for pain relief. And it typically comes in powder form or capsules. You can also find it in extracts, edibles, and sometimes as a drink and all of that.

[Hannah Smith]

Like at a gas station?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, like, very, very easy to come down. Kratom.

[Hannah Smith]

I first heard about it in 2020 when I was researching a different story, which I'll talk a little bit more about at the end of the episode, but I had never heard of it before. I was surprised to find just from a little bit of research on the Internet at that time, that there were a lot of ardent supporters online of Kratom, people on social media, on YouTube, on Reddit, who were making these claims like, this changed my life. I was in chronic pain. I started taking Kratom, talking about it almost like it was this miracle substance. And, yeah, there's still. I mean, you could go on Reddit and read tons of anecdotes of people claiming that it changed their life for the better, that they love it, that it's kind of like this miracle, whatever drug, plant. I don't know if they would call it a drug. Some of the other things.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, miracle supplement, maybe.

[Hannah Smith]

Supplement.

[Patia Eaton]

And then there's the other side of this, where you could find whole Reddit communities, online communities of people who say it has wrecked their life and have given it the nickname gas station heroin. It's also very popular in pop culture. Joe Rogan spoke about it on his podcast, and in one 2018 episode, he said he had taken it for some knee pain and that it was helpful to him.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, John Oliver also did an expose on it. It was more about supplements that are sold at gas stations and the loose regulations on those supplements. So it wasn't just about Kratom, but he did talk about it. And yeah, since 2020, when I look again in 2026, you're right. There's so many more stories out there now than before about people who claim that they got addicted to it, that they started taking it, thinking, oh, just pick this up at the gas station. It's called a supplement. Maybe it's kind of like taking a vitamin, but it's going to boost my energy and help with my back pain or whatever. And then these horror stories of how they quickly were taking more and more and got really addicted and how it messed with their mind and with their body. And there's a lot more people speaking out now about how this might actually be dangerous.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So this group of people that's advocating for Kratom being a positive thing, they would like for it to remain readily available and they do not want the pharmaceutical industry getting involved because the pharmaceutical industry has regulations and obviously, obviously that's an imperfect industry, but it will certainly make it, or I would predict, make it harder to come by and more expensive.

[Hannah Smith]

Definitely. And Michael Cowgill talks a little bit about it. We don't go too much into the weeds on the specific laws around Kratom, but he talks about it being not criminalized. So there's been different efforts to have it also criminalized. There's people saying this is a drug and you can just buy it anywhere. But there's been a lot of pushback whenever there's an attempt to also criminalize it. Both to criminalize it as well as to like have it taken over by the pharmaceutical industry. There's a lot of people who want it to just kind of remain as it is available, which I understand. But also, you know, there's a lot of complications to that which we'll get into.

[Patia Eaton]

Right. Because there are also deaths that have been attributed to Kratom. Multiple deaths enough that it's garnered the attention of attorneys like Michael Cowgill, but also the community that was saying, hey, this is a highly addictive substance and that is why there's a bigger push now to regulate it more than it is. So it's incredibly controversial, not widely studied yet. And so today we're speaking with an attorney, his name is Michael Cowgill. And we're going to speak with him specifically about a wrongful death lawsuit that he litigated that had to do with Kratom and that is the death of 39 year old husband and father Patrick Coyne.

[Hannah Smith]

We will be back at the end of the episode to discuss it, so stick around and don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Blueskyenife podcast. You can also email us at the knifexactlyrightmedia.com let's get into the interview.

[Patia Eaton]

Hi Michael, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.

[Michael Cowgill]

Happy to be here.

[Hannah Smith]

We're really excited to talk with you. Patia's been telling me about her conversations with you. And, yeah, I'm really thrilled to hear what you have to say today.

[Michael Cowgill]

I'm excited to be here and, you know, speak with both you, Patia, and Hannah as well, and excited to talk Kratom.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. You know, I actually first heard of Kratom back when I was listening to season one of a show Hannah used to work on. Hannah and I used to work on, but I wasn't a part of that first season. So Hannah has even more knowledge of it than. Well, not even more. She just has more. I don't have very much other than

[Hannah Smith]

the research I've done. Yeah. But I will say I've never received so many emails from listeners as people who wrote to me about the way I covered Kratom. There was a lot of opinions, and that was, like, sort of my first clue that this was something that people care a lot about.

[Michael Cowgill]

It's. It's a hot button issue with people on both sides, per se, that are very, very passionate.

[Patia Eaton]

So I reached out to you because you worked on a wrongful death case involving Kratom and the death of a man named Patrick Coyne. If you wouldn't mind starting by telling us a little bit about how you first became involved with the case.

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, no problem. So, you know, it's sort of cliche, the idea of a client walking into a law office, you know, with a case that you had no idea was coming. Something you see on tv, maybe. It doesn't really happen that way. Clients don't show up in offices as much as they used to. But within MCT Law, I'm one of the attorneys who worked on the Patrick Coyne case. Lead counsel actually was Tallis Abalins. Out of our Seattle office. Tallis was contacted and then reached out to me and said, hey, let's take a look at this. This looks like a potentially interesting case with a novel substance. And tragically, as we looked into it, I realized we've got Patrick Coyne, who passed away in Cowlitz County, Washington. It's about an hour north of Portland, Oregon, for reference. You know, looking at it, it's like you've got a coroner who determined the cause of death was a Kratom overdose. Essentially. This started making me think, you know, Kratom. I had heard of that before, and when I was in law school, students were taking it essentially as a stimulant to help work through the grind of law school. I had no idea or any thought at that point that Kratom could kill anybody. So we started doing research Talking to experts and realized, you know, this is a tragedy. Family lost their husband, their father, their primary breadwinner.

[Hannah Smith]

We'd love to kind of have you walk us through the case, starting with, who was Patrick Coyne? You know, what can you tell us about him as a person and what his life looked like?

[Michael Cowgill]

Patrick Coyne was a true blue Washingtonian. Yeah, he was someone who worked as a boat mechanic full time down in Portland, Oregon. He was the primary mechanic at a marina there on the Columbia River. He actually went to the convenience store across the street every day to get an orange juice to mix his Kratom into. And that was his work. But above all, he. He was a family man. You know, he had his wife and two kids and actually effectively a third kid that was not his by blood, but that's who Patrick was. You know, it was a family member's child who needed someone to take care of him. And Patrick took him in, took care of him, and he worked hard to provide for his kids. Every day he came back from work, he would bring his kids a treat. He would get them, you know, a little candy or something, right? Because he didn't like coming home empty handed any day. You know, they loved camping. He was always out camping, hiking, riding dirt bikes, ATVs, fishing, very sort of classic northwest experience. And that's really who Patrick was. He was well loved, unfortunately, because he worked as a boat mechanic. You can imagine he was crouched over all the time, working on engines, motors, so forth, working in consoles inside of boats which are tight spaces. And Patrick was a big guy. He was tall and he developed back issues, so he had back pain. That's actually what in part drove him to use Kratom. You know, he had been prescribed pain medication. And I think everybody knows about the opiate epidemic in this country. And it's unfortunately directly Kratom's directly tied to that epidemic. Patrick didn't want to get addicted to prescribed opiates, and he thought that Kratom was a safe alternative, something that could give him pain relief without having the same risks of addiction and other adverse risks such as death and overdose from prescription opiates. Unfortunately, he started using Kratom and he did get addicted, and that's what killed him.

[Hannah Smith]

Can you tell us a little bit more about, like, what type of Kratom he was taking? I think there are a lot of people that take it to stay awake or as you've said with Patrick, like a different kind of pain relief. And so what type of Kratom product was Patrick taking?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, Patrick used powdered Kratom. Kratom Divine was the brand. And it was essentially a small brown bag with a see through window on the front sticker on it with the branding, the green, it kind of varies in color from green, tannish, brown, and it was just Kratom powder. So you know what happens because kratom primarily comes from Southeast Asia, Indonesia more than anywhere else, essentially, it's grown there fresh, you know, just grown on a tree. It's a leaf that grows on a tree. They pull it off the tree, dry it in the sun and grind it up into a powder.

[Patia Eaton]

In the case of the kratom that Patrick was taking, how did he become introduced to it or where did he find it?

[Michael Cowgill]

As I recall, Patrick's co worker at the marina introduced him to kratom for pain relief purposes, essentially, and showed him, you know, stuff's right across the street and sort of presented as all natural. Yeah, it has this aura of safety and health around it as an all natural substance. Right. It's the plants. The plants don't hurt you. So that was his introduction to it. He, like a lot of folks would scoop it into orange juice and mix it with orange juice because kratom is known to have a pretty horrible taste, you know, allegedly extremely bitter, earthy in a negative way. And so folks try to mix it with things that mask its flavor or, you know, opt to take it in other forms, such as pills or liquid shots. But in Patrick's case, he was mixing it with orange juice.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. What do you know about his Kratom usage? Did he appear to think that it was working for him and how did his usage change over time? Was he consistently taking the same dose or did that change?

[Michael Cowgill]

He used the same products, you know, all the way through, from start to finish. Kratom Divine powder. And he did think it was working for him. He stopped taking prescription opiates and was getting the pain relief that he needed from Kratom. But he did use more over time. Just like with a lot of substances, a tolerance builds and addiction can form. And I think that was the story for, unfortunately for Patrick, it sounds like

[Patia Eaton]

Patrick's friend, fellow boat mechanic, was familiar with Kratom. Introduces him to Kratom. Any of his close friends or family members, were they aware that he was taking it? And did you hear of anyone having concerns prior to his death, which we'll get into?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, his family, you know, his wife was aware that he was using it. He would mix the drink at home at night, so she knew that he was using it. And everybody was under the impression that it was all natural, safe and alternative to prescription drugs. And with the stigma around prescription opiates, any sort of all natural alternative had a lot of appeal.

[Patia Eaton]

How long was he using Kratom?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, it was a few years. I recall that, but I couldn't give you an exact answer.

[Patia Eaton]

So getting into sort of the chain of events leading up to Patrick's death, what do you know about the days leading up to the night he passed away?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, as I recall, the days leading up to his passing weren't much different than any other day. And the night of his passing was fairly standard as well. Him and his family got together with very close family friends. They had a dinner. I know Patrick and his good buddy were working in the garage. I believe they were working on ATVs or dirt bikes, something of that nature. They had some drinks. There was, you know, some whiskey. But not anything concerning, right? Not, you know, an innumerable amount or any amount that showed up as a problem on an autopsy or toxicology report. He went home, you know, with the family. He was in fine condition to drive and so forth. Went home, mixed his Kratom, and he actually went to sleep on his recliner. Patrick had sleep apnea and had a CPAP that he used. And sometimes sleeping in the recliner would help with that. So that night he did sleep on his recliner and unfortunately he never woke up since he got out. Bad things keep happening. Keep fear. A new series is streaming June 5th on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. Why? And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams.

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[Patia Eaton]

Who found Patrick the next day?

[Michael Cowgill]

His wife, Ms. Coyne. She came over and as I recall, she heard what seemed like, you know, snoring or sleeping noises and then let him be, but then stopped hearing those noises. And that raised some concern for her. And she went over and realized he wasn't breathing. And that's when, you know, she called others in the house, called 911, tried to get life saving measures underway, and unfortunately they weren't able to resuscitate him. And he passed.

[Patia Eaton]

I can't even imagine being the one to find my husband. And having passed away, I mean, my heart goes out to her, truly. So Patrick's wife calls 911. He's passed by the time she finds him. And of course, then paramedics arrive. How does the investigation into what caused his death unfold?

[Michael Cowgill]

So, you know, the whole family's there, you've got EMS that arrives on the scene, tries life saving measures, fails. Some police arrived on the scene, I believe, and the coroner's office always sends out an investigator, particularly when it's not readily obvious, you know, how someone passed away, particularly when they're relatively young. So an investigator comes out, starts examining the scene and notes that there's some Kratom packaging, if I recall, I believe it was on the kitchen counter. And when I say I recall, this case was a few years ago, so I might not be remembering things exactly. I believe that the investigator found some of the Kratom packaging on the kitchen counter. And even at that point, the investigator and the police, they recognized that there's something up with Kratom, right? They had seen other deaths involving Kratom. It takes a while for an autopsy and toxicology report to be done. And Ms. Coyne and the family were shocked, right, when they heard the results that it was Kratom that caused this death.

[Hannah Smith]

I mean, especially because he was 39. Right. And you had said he obviously had some back issues that had troubled him. But, you know, was there anything else about his health that, as far as his family is aware at the time that seemed unusual or like he had a preexisting heart condition or something like that? Or was it just like, we think we have this healthy father and husband, and then suddenly he's dead?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, I would say it was more the latter. There was no real reason to think that Patrick would just suddenly die. He had been going to his doctors regularly because, you know, I talked about the pain treatment he had been receiving in the past. So he was someone that had doctors he would go to and had kept going to. I believe he even shared with one of his doctors that he was using Kratom. And they didn't. They didn't really tell him, you know, good or bad. They just kind of noted it and moved on. So he didn't have any reason to think that there was anything wrong with this stuff. Right. And the sad reality, in retrospect, and I think it's still an issue, is a lot of physicians just don't know about Kratom or know about its risks. But yet there was no real indication that Patrick would just suddenly die. I shared with you that he had sleep apnea, was using cpap. The defense tried to run with that in the case. You know, that there's some truth. You know, there's medical literature out there about negative impacts on sleep and oxygenation and so forth, but no basis to think that that caused this death. And like I said earlier, Patrick was a larger guy. Defense counsel tried to make hay out of that as well. You know, he had an enlarged heart and was slightly overweight, that kind of thing. But again, no implication whatsoever that those played a role in this death. There was no evidence of that. The evidence was clear. It was Kratom.

[Hannah Smith]

On the actual death certificate or, like, toxicology report, does it list, like, cause of death, overdose, or does it say Kratom specifically?

[Michael Cowgill]

It does not say Kratom specifically. The exact quote is, the toxic effects of mitragynine, parentheses Kratom. And that's because metragynine is the primary alkaloid within the Kratom plant and is the alkaloid that is tested by toxicology labs. But Kratom contains, you know, roughly 40ish alkaloids. More of them are being studied, and I think slowly right now, more alkaloids are being tested for, but at that time it was just mitragynine. And so that's why it says that.

[Patia Eaton]

So his family, once they receive the toxicology report, they approach her colleague in Seattle about a possible wrongful death case. I guess I want to talk a little bit first about why it would be important for them to pursue that. And I know you mentioned earlier in our conversation that Patrick was the breadwinner. Can you kind of speak to the. Outside of the incredible heartache that I think any family would feel to lose someone they love, what was the other sort of strain that his death put on their family and their household?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, I'll tell you, it's true of this case and every other that I have and have done. Wrongful death. It's never really about the money. Right. I think everybody jumps to that because our system of justice is set up that way. Right. The only thing anyone's ever going to get out of a civil case like this is monetary damages. And nobody ever feels like that's justice. Right. We're never able to bring back the loved one they've lost. And that's true of this case and others, like I said. But when we were approached, and I think this is true of other cases as well, folks are just lost. They're trying to understand, Right. And this is very true in Kratom, where they start looking online, trying to understand what is kratom. You know, this killed my family member, why, how they may come across our office in that sort of research. And then I find that a lot of people reach out because they're just looking to understand how and why they've lost a loved one. And that's when they start exploring, well, you know, is there something here that can be done? And that's really what happened here. And I think a lot of it is driven from. And, you know, this is why Sybil Coyne, Ms. Coyne even gave me permission to speak to you all about this. Right. She wants more than anything else for the world to hear these stories, to hear the story of Patrick and to hear stories of how Kratom is harming people, because it's pretty powerful industry in terms of the lobbying strength. And there is a lot of folks using Kratos Kratom. You know, there's a lot of folks out there using Kratom that have positive stories to share. And, you know, to Ms. Coin, I think for all our clients, it's important that folks hear the negatives and, you know, the harm that this could cause and the harm that it has and does cause. And so that was always the primary driver. And every client we have, including Ms. Coin, more than anything, just wants this stuff off the shelf so that no other family has to lose a loved one. And that's really what drove this case.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. You know, you mentioned that earlier in the evening, before Patrick passed away, he had had just a couple of drinks that did not, on the toxicology report, seem to be anything that could have contributed to this. But how do you, as lawyers, decide this is a wrongful death case that we think we can win when someone does have multiple substances in their system?

[Michael Cowgill]

Right. And so this was not a case with multiple substances. And I want to make that clear as well, because that is one of the primary things you hear from the Kratom industry, that, you know, every Kratom death involves multiple substances. And that wasn't the case here. This was a straight Kratom death. Aside from that, multiple substances might mean prescription substances at therapeutic levels. If you're prescribed an SSRI or something, it's pretty common, and you might have it at therapeutic levels, and they're going to try to claim that that killed you somehow. But this wasn't one of those cases. But how do we decide, you know, this is a case to take? It's a lot of due diligence. You know, we had to really dig in on Kratom, enlist experts, medical doctors, you know, toxicologists to understand how does Kratom function pharmacologically, what does it do in the human body? Here it really comes down to, can Kratom cause death? And did it cause this specific death?

[Hannah Smith]

I'm wondering if you can explain it to me like I'm a child. What's going on with the scientific explanation of the chemical makeup of Kratom? You know, I've read a little bit about it online, as I said, just from, like, some of the podcasts it's come up before. So I'm very familiar with what you mentioned about, you know, Kratom supporters have this claim that no one ever dies from just Kratom alone. Maybe they had another opioid in the system or whatever. There's a lot of impetus for people that are pro Kratom to defend it, obviously. And then I've heard people say it, at low doses, it acts like coffee, kind of, or a stimulant. And then at higher doses, it acts as a painkiller, like an opioid. But what is actually going on with what Kratom is and what you had to find out about it to research this case?

[Michael Cowgill]

Right. So that explaining it as simple as possible. I think you already did. You know, it's like low dose stimulant, high dose, more sedative, opiate effect. But it gets deep in the weeds quick. And I'll say specifically for Patrick Coyne, what we had and what we showed the jury was a respiratory death. And you know, there's multiple ways you can die, obviously, right. And there's multiple ways that Kratom specifically can kill. It's not like oxycodone or heroin where there's sort of this classic presentation of an overdose death. In traditional opiate deaths, you hear about what's called a foam cone. And that's sort of a foam cone that forms in the mouth. That is a telltale sort of sign of this is an opiate overdose. But Kratom is itself polypharmacological. All that means is that it acts on multiple receptors in our brains. So things like oxycodone are very targeted. They hit the opiate receptors. And this is generally true of a lot of pre market approved drugs. Whereas Kratom, you know, everybody sort of focuses on the opiate receptors and I think that's fair. But it also hits the adrenergic receptors, which is thought to be why it has a stimulant effect. It's known to have some effect on the serotonin system. It's known to have an effect on beta arrestin and a couple other pathways, you know, neurological pathways. And then you couple that with the reality that there's 40ish alkaloids, all of them having some sort of action in the brain, you end up in a situation where we have a lot of unknowns. Right. So I think that we're still learning a lot about Kratom and its risks. But specifically with Patrick, what you had was a respiratory suppression death. You know, Kratom does cause respiratory suppression. The medical literature exists on that. Kratom also has the unique propensity of causing seizures, and that's pretty well established in the medical literature as well. And then it can cause liver failure. So all of those are sort of in play. But specifically in Patrick's case, it would have been a respiratory suppression death. You think about how many people in our country are taking anti anxiety, antidepressant pain meds on a daily basis that they're prescribed and they're using like they're supposed to. Well, Kratom can have drug, drug interactions with those that can cause, you know, serious adverse effects.

[Hannah Smith]

Someone could think, oh, I'm buying this, it's safe, it's herbal. Maybe they're not taking opioids. Maybe they have a low dose anti anxiety med or whatever. They think it's totally unrelated. You're saying that could interact in ways that maybe we still don't understand?

[Michael Cowgill]

Oh, definitely, yeah. I think the science is developing on it, but yeah, you can get synergistic effects and additive effects that can cause, you know, all sorts of adverse events. And we know that it's possible, we know that that risk is there, but we don't know enough. There's not warnings. Right. You know, I have yet to see a Kratom package that says, you know, if you're taking Fluoxetine, don't take this product. Right. If you're taking Prozac, don't take this product, whatever it may be. Right. Like, it's just, it's not there. And a lot of people that are using Kratom are using prescription substances as they're supposed to.

[Patia Eaton]

Right? Yeah. It's like you would go to your doctor and get a prescription and you might not think to tell your doctor that you're taking this quote, unquote, all natural substance that you could purchase online or at a gas station Sometimes. Yeah. Getting into the trial. So this was a jury trial, correct?

[Michael Cowgill]

Correct.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay. What was your plan or approach into how you were going to explain the scientific properties of this substance and show the jury that this is the reason Patrick Coyne passed and that the manufacturer should be held responsible?

[Michael Cowgill]

Right. I think our approach was multifaceted. One aspect is just sharing with the jury why we're here. Right. Who are these people? Why are we here? What has happened? Right. So, you know, just introductions on Patrick Coyne, like we've been talking about today. His wife, Sibel Coin, you know, their children, what he meant to them and what his loss meant to them. Introducing the defendants, you know, what role do they play with Kratom Divine and the Kratom that caused this death. And introducing the regulatory aspects of Kratom. Right. Because Kratom's actually not even supposed to be in the country for human consumption. Right. The FDA has an import alert on this. And you're not really supposed to be bringing it into the country to sell it for human consumption.

[Hannah Smith]

That's what's wild to me.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

How are people, so many people selling it if technically you're not supposed to.

[Michael Cowgill]

Well, you're not supposed to import it. Right. So it's all sort of nuanced. Right. You're not supposed to import it for human consumption. People get around that import alert by labeling it for cosmetic purposes, fertilizer, agricultural purposes, a specific seaweed. They'll market that way. And then it gets in. Now, once it's in, you know, it's subject to the Food, Drug and Cosmetic act. And depending on how Kratom is marketed, it can be regarded as a supplement or an unapproved drug. More commonly, Kratom is being sold as a supplement. Supplements are a subset of food. The industry wants us to believe that Kratom is a food. Kratom is essentially being sold over the counter in violation of civil law of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic act. And it's considered, quote unquote, adulterated and misbranded. The FDA is clear on that. They say it everywhere, right? Like, you can look at their publications, their website. They've made it very clear they've issued warning letters, they've prosecuted people over this, they've prosecuted importers. Like, this stuff is out there. But the confusion sort of stems from Kratom is not criminally illegal. Right. You could have something that is civilly illegal and not criminally illegal. And that's sort of where Kratom lies.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. During the trial, there was a defendant which was a company that you mentioned, Kratom Divine.

[Michael Cowgill]

Right.

[Hannah Smith]

They were selling this product. This was the very specific brand of Kratom, because there are many that Patrick was consuming. It sounds like the entire time he was taking Kratom. What can you tell us about Kratom Divine about, like. Like that company and what their, you know, claims were?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, Kratom Divine wasn't one of the biggest players in the industry or anything like that. It's a pretty widespread industry with brands and groups of different sizes involved. Kratom Divine was relatively smaller family operation out of Oregon, to my understanding. They were primarily distributing in the Pacific Northwest and on the West Coast. They got into this stuff because they sort of drank the Kool Aid on Kratom being this holistic, natural, organic herb that has all these medicinal properties to it. And they were buying it, you know, from importers and repackaging it and branding it and processing it and selling it, and that's what they were doing. But their website had some pretty outrageous claims. They had a blog that included claims like, you know, this was during COVID included some claims that Kratom could help you with COVID right? Yeah. There's no evidence of that. Included claims that Kratom could provide pain relief, anti anxiety properties and so forth. So they were making very problematic claims. And they were frankly completely lacked any remorse right through this whole process, really. And I don't know, I don't know if it stemmed from like a true belief that Kratom was safe, but I think the jury saw that and I think that that worked against them. Since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear, a new series is streaming June 5th on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. Why? And academy award winning award nominee Amy Adams.

[Patia Eaton]

He is coming after my family.

[Michael Cowgill]

Kate Fear. Streaming June 5th on Apple TV.

[Hannah Smith]

Hello, hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart Talks with IBM. Today. We're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pollard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Michael Cowgill]

Your pronunciation is. It's strongly American.

[Hannah Smith]

It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Michael Cowgill]

I'm still working on rolling my R's,

[Hannah Smith]

but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the tifosi, the Ferrari super fans. In the digital age.

[Michael Cowgill]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something.

[Hannah Smith]

So they want to be part of

[Michael Cowgill]

a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team. You've got Ferrari, which has a long

[Hannah Smith]

history, design history, and now you're interacting

[Michael Cowgill]

in a kind of digital space.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Michael Cowgill]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels, are they enabled to create a deeper connection with our fans?

[Hannah Smith]

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[Michael Cowgill]

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[Patia Eaton]

What did the manufacturer, supplier of the Kratom that Patrick Coyne was consuming. What was their stance at trial? What did they say happened?

[Michael Cowgill]

Their argument was essentially, you know, kratom is safe. Kratom doesn't cause death. They tried to character assassinate Patrick. And that's sadly the reality in all these cases. You know, it's a lot of. He was obese. He had a slightly enlarged heart. So this is just a sudden cardiac death. We see that continually. I think a sad reality. Not. Not the case in Patrick's situation. But in other cases where a lot of folks discover Kratom when they're in recovery, you know, recovery from illicit substances or even alcoholism, folks will. Will discover kratom and end up with an issue. And then you get into litigation, and, you know, a lot of the defense approach is, let's assassinate this person's character based on their prior addictions. Well, you know, kratom allegedly is supposed to help with addiction. So it's an interesting conundrum there. Yeah. The defense approach was primarily that attack his character, Attack him as obese and having a bad heart, Bringing the CPAP into that. And again, I think the jury saw through that.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Well, I actually wanted to ask a clarifying question that I. We touched on earlier, but just so we make sure we're getting everything right. So even though, like, you mentioned the whiskey drinks, but that those absolutely did not play a part. Like, how does that get determined in a toxicology report?

[Michael Cowgill]

Right. So it's. It's tested for. Yeah. And it's not on the toxicology report.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Michael Cowgill]

And that's the long and short of it that said, you know, the reality, the fact that there was any alcohol involved that night would cause central nervous system depression. So I think, if anything, the argument exists for us to say Kratom could have had a synergistic effect with alcohol and central nervous system depression, resulting in respiratory suppression and death. And we did make that argument, and I think that that's a valid and good argument. But the toxicology report does not show, you know, the presence of alcohol.

[Patia Eaton]

And did the defense try to go there at all with that?

[Michael Cowgill]

Oh, yeah. They tried to paint a picture of, you know, irresponsibility. Right. That Patrick was just drinking a ton the night of his death and that, you know, could you believe he would drive his family home and that kind of thing? And every witness that was there, it's like, you know, he. I think it was either he had one or two shots over the course of, you know, numerous hours that they had been together. That was It. Right. And had been drinking water and other things to get some soda. You know, it's like not a situation of extreme partying or anything like that, or partying at all, really. So, yeah, defendants did try to go that route, and I think, you know, the facts and evidence showed otherwise.

[Patia Eaton]

Were there any moments during the trial that you felt like the jury might lean in the other direction?

[Michael Cowgill]

I do remember specifically one of the defense experts is actually a professor at UF and I believe Arizona State Dr. Oliver Grundman, very well regarded pharmacologist in University of Florida, is probably the primary Kratom research institute that exists right now. Dr. Grundman was the defense expert pharmacologist, and he was explaining Kratom's properties, what it does, how it works, its history. And I remember his testimony at trial actually helping us significantly because he admitted Kratom's an opiate. Right. He. He came out and said it. And I know that a lot of folks don't agree with that and there's nuance and arguments on both sides there, but the defense expert coming out and saying that I think was a. A very helpful thing. And, you know, he had to admit that he couldn't say Kratom could not or did not cause this death. Right. Like, he just couldn't go there.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Michael Cowgill]

And that made all the difference.

[Hannah Smith]

So in reading some of the court documents, I thought it was really interesting that Kratom divine. Some of their specific claims were laid out and it sounds like they implored customers, it says to get educated quote. And they also had a free ebook that one of the founders, Wendy Rook, had written called Kratom A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding the Effects and Benefits of this Amazing plant. And one of the things that they claimed, I guess this is quoted from the ebook. So I don't know because I haven't looked at the website or the blog, but I imagine when they're selling it, it's sort of like. Also get our free ebook if you want to learn more about this plant. One of the claims they have is that if you take too much of this Kratom, that your body will let you know by causing nausea or vomiting, indicating that you can't overdose. I don't think they ever say you can't overdose, but they say you may have heard some highly biased stories of how Kratom caused someone's untimely death. And then they say, keep in mind there's no scientifically confirmed recorded fact of Kratom ever causing a single death. So there is no need to be nervous about trying it. That is what the book says. I mean, that's just unbelievable to me. And the fact that then they're literally sitting in trial talking about a father who's taken their product and who's died. But you know, from your perspective, and obviously we don't know what's happening inside their brains, but you did not seem to think this wasn't a moment for them of like, oh wait, hold on, maybe we're wrong. Maybe we are selling something that is irresponsible or dangerous.

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, I personally never got the impression that they had that realization or, you know, they certainly didn't appear that way. I will say a couple things though, on, on what you mentioned on the ebook. There is this idea that sort of continues even to this day of Kratom being quote, unquote, self limiting, where you can't take too much of it because you're going to throw up. And you know, it's interesting because some of the more recent studies have confirmed that Kratom definitely causes nausea and can cause vomiting. But you can get past the self limiting nature. Right. Like putting Kratom in pills is one way. You can take more pills than just spoons of powder. Right. Or just putting in orange juice, putting it in other smoothies, whatever. It's just people do that with all sorts of substances, including Kratom. And then you look at the market and you've got concentrates, little liquid shots that are just way more powerful and way more concentrated that are easy for you to take. You're getting seltzers, lollipops, essentially anything that you can imagine for cannabis now exists for Kratom. And the notion that it's going to be self limiting in some way is just false. But yeah, that's something that was part of the case and has persisted thereafter.

[Patia Eaton]

This couple that owns Kratom Divine, what is their background? Like, what got them into this?

[Michael Cowgill]

I don't recall with 100% certainty, but I believe Ms. Rook worked in the medical field in some capacity as a nurse or tech of some kind. And then her husband worked, I believe, in construction. And as I recall, Wendy Rook discovered it in her work in medicine and thought that it was a potential way to help people. Yeah, again that's to the best of my recollection at this point.

[Patia Eaton]

And so how many days was the trial? And then if you could tell us, you know, how the trial resolved.

[Michael Cowgill]

The trial was two weeks long from start to finish. And you know, it took the jury, I think a day or a Day and a half, maybe two days to come back with a verdict. That was probably about a day and a half because I actually flew back to Florida before we had our verdict. And my co counsel Tallis, out in Seattle, he stayed in Cowlitz county until the verdict came in. The jury, they came out and they rendered a verdict in our favor, thankfully. But you know, that was a nervous day, day and a half.

[Hannah Smith]

Can you tell us what the judgment was?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, it was 2.5 million total was the verdict. And you know, frankly, that doesn't sound like too much, right? Like, you know, you think about verdicts in a place like LA or Philadelphia, New York, verdicts can be huge. But we're talking about Kalis County, Washington and what we heard from locals who work there was that that was the highest verdict in a plaintiff's case, at least as of, you know, that time a couple years ago. And it changed, you know, the lives of this family. Like I said, it's not bringing back Patrick Coyne. But more than anything, that's what brings me joy in this work and getting through this type of work is knowing that a family with a major loss has at least something to help them move forward and you know, gain some sense of direction again in the wake of that loss.

[Hannah Smith]

So yeah, yeah, especially because, yeah, there's no quantifying that loss. It's so horrible. But I imagine the last thing that then you want to do after experiencing such a life shattering loss is to be struggling financially with three children to try to make ends meet. So it's like a very small consolation but it feels like at least something just happened that they, they were able to get this judgment. But it also sounds like it was important for them on like just to have that out there in civil court that they won and that this was wrong and to spread the word that this could be dangerous to other people.

[Michael Cowgill]

I think that's right. You know, it is still life changing money and it was here. But more importantly, it was about sending the message and spreading the word of yeah, Kratom can kill. And you know, tragically it did in this case.

[Patia Eaton]

So after the, you know, the verdict comes back and you guys win the case, does the company Kratom Divine, are they still selling the same product? Is it still available? Were there any sort of changes made on their end afterward that you're aware of?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, Kratom Divine still exists. There has been some changes to the labeling that I've seen. There's been some changes to the website. It's operated by different folks but that's probably about the extent of what I can say.

[Hannah Smith]

So, like, still, we could walk into that same gas station where Patrick bought his Kratom and someone could still purchase Kratom there.

[Michael Cowgill]

Kratom, not Kratom Divine. I know that.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Michael Cowgill]

The places where Patrick purchased his Kratom no longer sell Kratom Divine, but they do sell Kratom.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow.

[Michael Cowgill]

Or at least they were as of the last time I checked, which was a couple years back.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, I saw Kratom, a Kratom quote supplement for sale in a little mini mart type of place that everyone's heard of those massive chains selling it. Are they ever sued for selling it?

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, we've seen that. Another big case that's occurred was involving a product called Feel Free. And there was a class action on that. Feel Free was actually continues to exist, hugely popular on social media and sort of targeted a very specific, again, sort of all natural health, holistic angle to things. It's being sold in yoga spots and things like that. It was sold in 7 11, you know, like the. The stuff. It wasn't even obvious that Kratom was in it and that was a part of it. But that's sort of the insidious nature of it, this sort of healthful aura. It's like there's nothing wrong with trying to be healthy. Right. And like, we should all be doing that. But, like, I think you end up with a situation where there's some susceptibility to just thinking anything that's a quote unquote, natural, organic herb or plant is going to be helpful in some way. In the early going, you could get Kratom on Amazon. You could get Kratom at Whole Foods at one point. And that did change pretty quick. But it's now, I would say primarily in convenience stores and smoke shops. But even that has shifted a bit. Where there was a period of time where some convenience store chains, you know how they're attached to gas stations. A lot of the time these gas station franchises were like, you can't have this on the shelf. That's kind of waxed and waned. And, you know, by and large, the industry is not insured. Insurers don't want to deal with this at all. It's too high risk. They had banking issues for years. You know, banks didn't want to be involved in processing payments for it. Again, sort of similar to cannabis in a way. So, yeah, the industry is out there, but the ways that it was accessible have shifted over time. But it's still there.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I read a report, the CDC analyzed a report, I think this was in 2019. The report spanned 27,000 unintentional drug overdoses. 152 of those had Kratom. And they determined that Kratom was the cause of death for 91 of those, which this was only over a 17 month span in the U.S. and that feels like a lot of people.

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah, I'd have to look at what you're referring to, but that's been an interesting sort of area. So stepping away from the case a little bit and going back to like 2016. Right. The FDA recommended to the DEA schedule kratom, meaning make kratom schedule one like cocaine or heroin. Right. Criminally illegal. And that caused a very strong grassroots uproar to prevent that from happening. And it also caused the American Kratom association, the probably primary lobbying group on behalf of the Kratom industry, to really come into a much more powerful position. And they succeeded in stopping kratom being scheduled. And part of the argument they were making, and I'm not saying the data you're referring to is this data. I'm just not sure there was some data about kratom caused deaths. And the data involved deaths that included things like suicide, like a gunshot to the head, you know, and that undermined some of the power of that data. Right. That's something the industry has harped on ever since. You know, that's where some of this like Kratom deaths always involve fentanyl. Right. Like that's where some of that notions come from. And there's truth to that. There's a lot of fentanyl debts that have Kratom on board. And you know, that's the reality. I think that cuts against the idea that Kratom is helping get people off of opiates when they're using it with opiates. And I've seen deaths where very little fentanyl, very high Kratom and it gets tough to say which caused the death. And you see medical examiners listing both because even though it's fentanyl, people build tolerances. It, like many substances, is a very wide range of, you know, what can kill you. You've also got on the market wholly synthetic 7 hydroxymetragynine, meaning stuff that's just made in a lab. And 7 hydroxy mitraginine stuff is a full on opiate. It's stronger than morphine. And you can buy that stuff just over the counter in a gas station a lot of places or A smoke shop. And so we're seeing a lot of people getting injured or getting hurt to date. And the feds are starting to notice more and more because the data is building. Just recently there was a study focused on deaths in the state of Florida that showed unequivocally that there have been numerous deaths caused by Kratom over a few year period. And that's just in one state. So we know this stuff is an issue. Just because Kratom kills less than something like fentanyl doesn't mean it's not a problem.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like Kratom is this substance that's sort of sitting currently inside of a national debate about medical truth and how we define it and who we trust. Because you can see that there's a lot of FDA warnings. There's this attempt by the DEA in 2016 to classify it as a Schedule 1 substance. But at the same time there's this growing movement of distrust against government regulations when it comes to health. And some of that is understandable, especially when it comes to opioids. Right. And pain medication, especially with what we saw with Purdue Pharma and with this government backed medication that has just wreaked havoc in our country. So then you have other people studying it, some researchers who strongly believe that there could be a potential for Kratom to be used as a safer way for people to get off addiction to heroin. Even if you say yes, kratom is dangerous, but I don't think anyone would argue that it's more dangerous than using heroin regularly. The heroin deaths are probably much larger. But it feels like it's very hard as a person, myself, someone who works on a podcast and does research as part of my job, to understand, let alone someone who's just a consumer going to a gas station to really get to the bottom of what is going on with it and who to believe. Right. Because you have the FDA and the dea. Are you a type of person who's going to trust a government institution like that? Or you have, you know, on the other side, sort of like the supplement world who's saying, no, it's really, really safe. It feels like Kratom is stuck in this place where it's very hard for consumers to really get a good idea of what it is and what it's doing to their bodies and like how safe it is.

[Michael Cowgill]

I think you're right. And it's a tough situation, right, Because I think a lot of people have lust trust in institutions, broadly speaking. And, you know, certainly with oxycodone, Purdue Pharma and everything around that. It's sort of a perfect storm, timing wise, with the rise of Kratom and all the controversy around opiates and the opioid epidemic. And it has created a tough situation. You couple that with our increasing ability to research things online and the social media that can surround a given product, the funding that could go into marketing for a given product on social media, the role of influencers. Joe Rogan was hawking Kratom at one point. So it's just like it's got a wide reach and then it's tough to know what's reality and what's not sometimes. And I think it's unfortunate, right, because what it comes down to, to me is nuance. And if there's anything we've lost in public discourse, it seems to be nuance. Multiple things can be true, right? Kratom may have some promise, right? Kratom may end up being useful for opiate use disorder treatment. We don't know that yet. There's not enough there to say it is. It hasn't gone through the necessary pathways and studies to say that that's the case. But I think everyone agrees that it's a potential and it's worth looking at because we know there's an opioid epidemic and we know that, you know, any tool in the toolbox to help with that is worth exploring, right? And that is happening to some degree. And so that, you know, you can have that be the case, but it can also be the case that it's dangerous. And I think it's particularly dangerous with, with how it's sold and how accessible it is, right? So the fact that I can walk out of my office and walk down the street and buy a ton of Kratom, like you can buy as much as you want, right? It's not like a pharmaceutical where you're going to get, you know, 30 capsules and, you know, have medical oversight. You're just going down the block and buying a bunch and taking it and hoping for the best. It's not overseen. And how it's, you know, making it into the country, how it's being made, how it's being processed, how it's being tested. The variability of products on the market's really high. You know, even within the same brand from bag to bag, you're going to get different percentages of metragynine 7 hydroxy. Then you go between companies themselves, there's going to be differences. I don't blame consumers for being lost and confused when it comes to Kratom, Particularly when you're talking about something where you go to a doctor and they don't even know what you're talking about.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. How old does someone have to be to purchase Kratom changes place to place.

[Michael Cowgill]

Some states have passed laws on that, some haven't. So some places it's 18, some are 21. And some places, arguably, there is no age limit. Wow. A lot of manufacturers have taken it on themselves to put 18 plus on the packaging, but I've seen packaging with no age limit and there are states with no. No regulation at all on the age limit. So depends on where you're at. You know, Kratom. A lot more recently, like, over the past few months, they've been actively removing seven, oh, and natural, quote unquote, Kratom products from the shelf based on the understanding and interpretation, which is correct, that the FDA has put forward that Kratom's adulterated and misbranded. It's not even supposed to be sold over the counter, full stop. So depending on where you are, there's different actions being taken. That said, you know, I know that there's like, anything else, if you really want it, you can find a way to get it right.

[Hannah Smith]

Well, that was our conversation with Michael Cowgill. I'm so glad that he spoke with us about this.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. It was impressive how much information he has retained over, like, the very detailed specifics of Kratom and how it works in the body.

[Hannah Smith]

Mm.

[Patia Eaton]

It's something that, like, I personally have seen out on shelves and you just think, like, oh, I happen to know that this is a controversial supplement, but how many people are just reading a label and being like, oh, that sounds appealing.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it's sold in all these gas stations. And I'm so fascinated by it. And we've been wanting to talk to someone about Kratom for a while. Been wanting to do an episode. So I'm glad it worked out and that Michael could come on the show and tell us about this case, which was so heartbreaking.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, Kratom, I recalled it from season one of Opportunist, which we mentioned in the interview. But I've also seen Kratom talked about a lot on social media lately. People who have. Who claim they're addicted to it and that weaning off of it has been a very difficult process.

[Hannah Smith]

Interesting.

[Patia Eaton]

And that's at least what I've been targeted with. I'm sure there are other people out there saying that it's Been very helpful to them. Michael had so much knowledge about how people perceive Kratom that are not aware of the associated risk.

[Hannah Smith]

It is such a controversial and hot topic issue. And I kind of mentioned this in the interview, but I first heard of it when I was making season One of the Opportunists. And the reason it came up was that the person who was killed, who died in that season, his name was Steven Mineo and he was on multiple substances when he died. And one of them was Kratom. And it became part of the trial over his death and was talked about. And so of course, I did some research on it when I was making that. And if I'm recalling, he had a lot of alcohol in the system at the time and obviously he was killed from a gunshot wound. But there was some question about whether or not he was sort of out of his mind at the time and what his mental state was. I think I included a very small bit of information about Kratom and about what sort of the current research says about it. And I got so many people responding to me, upset that I would talk about it in any way. Negative. And I realized, oh, there's a whole subsect of people who view Kratom as this cure all type of supplement and get really upset if anyone ever says anything negative about it. To me, that's a red flag. That's some cult thinking right there.

[Michael Cowgill]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And it's like, wouldn't you want all the information? You know, you're taking a supplement. And I think Michael put it well, he said, yes, they are regulated. How well those regulations are enforced or overseen. I don't remember. His exact wording is questionable.

[Hannah Smith]

And I don't necessarily think if you're taking magnesium or something like. I think there's an acceptance that there's some level of safety to a lot of supplements. Obviously it depends. But the thing with Kratom is that it has, like Michael was saying, it's an opioid or an opiate, I guess, because it comes from a plant. But it's not like some of these other supplements. But then that opens the door to a bigger conversation of like, our bodies are just basically sacks of chemicals and every time you put something in it, but it's gonna interact with something else. Right?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. There's also supplements that have been on the market a long time that are, you know, you can buy them in any grocery store because they are just trusted. And Kratom is not one of those supplements. It's widely accessible. But there is a Conversation around Kratom that doesn't exist around magnesium or vitamin C. And. And there have been wrongful deaths that have been attributed to Kratom.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Dozens and dozens of them.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, for sure. And I think that's where it feels like such a potentially dangerous thing to just be out for sale. Because consumers, I think, should know what they're taking. Right. As much information is out there. And if they, in my opinion, if they still want to take it, fine. But if you are under the impression that it's very similar to taking vitamin C or magnesium, that's just so not true.

[Michael Cowgill]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

Or even similar in the level of, like, trust you can have in the results.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

You know, I think that also it's seeking out. I shouldn't say it's seeking these people out, but you know, who's looking for something to alleviate pain? Well, if you're looking to alleviate pain, you might be more willing to try something new because chronic pain can wreak havoc on someone's life, and that's a vulnerable place to be coming from for some people.

[Hannah Smith]

It's a huge problem. It's like one of the number one problems in the medical industry. It's, what are you supposed to do if you have chronic pain? There are not a lot of great answers that we have. I understand a person's hesitancy to get on prescription opioids. Of course, we've all seen what that can do to someone now, how dangerous those are and how addictive, very addictive they are. And so I think there's a lot of people that are in this position where they're in chronic pain. They're really scared to take prescription opioids for good reason, and then they need to turn somewhere else. And, you know, a lot of people are using medical cannabis, but maybe that's not your jam. Maybe you don't like smoking weed for some reason, or maybe it doesn't work well for you. I can see someone going down a rabbit hole trying to find other options and landing on Kratom. There's plenty of voices out there on the Internet who are saying this works so well and it's so saf.

[Patia Eaton]

And if it does end up offering pain relief, you might be willing to look past some of the other conversations around it, because if it's able to alleviate your pain, that probably changes your whole life.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So we talked about this a little bit in the interview, but it's just like, I wish that it would just be studied more because it does seem like there's something there to the plant. And I think that I can see both sides of this sort of Kratom argument. Like, people who are saying, no, it's killing people. It's like a drug, and it should be scheduled as a drug. But then I also understand the argument of people who are using it who feel like they're out of options and don't feel like they have anywhere else to turn. But because it's so hotly debated, it feels like there's no room for someone to come in and just, like, let's get the information on what this actually is and what it can actually do and, like, how we can use it safely if need be.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Because also, you think about, like, let's just say that this should definitely be scheduled as a drug. If someone even is thinking that way. Well, how many people now are going to have a harder time accessing this? You know, there are real dangers associated with Kratom. And for sure, it seems like manufacturers are held responsible when these verdicts happen, but maybe it doesn't stop them from selling to the masses.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, I'd be scared to take it. You die at 39 years old, this guy died. That's horrible. And he clearly was just trying to do something he thought was gonna help him and his family. And, yeah, I think it's a good reminder of, like, I'm not a scientist. Even supplements, putting them on my body, that's affecting other things. Even things like, I was drinking this tea for a while that I really liked because I was not doing coffee and whatever. And so I found this tea. It's a mint licorice tea. To me, it's the best tea I've ever had in my life.

[Patia Eaton]

It sounds horrendous.

[Hannah Smith]

I love licorice.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, my gosh.

[Hannah Smith]

Black licorice is, like, my favorite thing. I know. And so I find this tea, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's so good. I'm drinking, like, three cups a day.

[Patia Eaton]

You're like, why am I turning burgundy?

[Hannah Smith]

And then I read something about how licorice raises your blood pressure, like, naturally.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, my gosh.

[Hannah Smith]

And I have to watch my blood pressure anyway, so I'm like, oh, my God, what the hell? So I have to stop drinking this tea. But, you know, this is a tea sold in stores, and it's.

[Patia Eaton]

And it's probably not all over the front. Might raise your blood pressure.

[Hannah Smith]

No, but it's like, there's just so much that could be going on. This tea's not going to kill me, but it's Also not good for me to be drinking. And then you think about something like Kratom that has. When Michael was listing all the different ingredients and all the different. The chemical makeup of this plant is so complex. How could you know everything it's doing to your body?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And because you can go pick it up at a gas station, you don't have to tell your doctor that you're also taking Kratom.

[Hannah Smith]

He did tell his doctor, but his doctor didn't know anything about it. Sounds like.

[Patia Eaton]

Right. In this case, Patrick Coyne told his doctor. But in how many cases would someone not even think to mention to their doctor? You know, like, I don't necessarily think I would tell my doctor if I were taking, like, melatonin for sleep.

[Hannah Smith]

No. Or like drinking an energy drink, which is sort of how this is sold at gas stations a little bit.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Honestly, the packaging, to me, when I see it, it looks like, oh, that does nothing. Oh, that must be like, nothing.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. It's wild.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Well, I'm glad that we could have an episode about it and talk about it, because I do think it's really important for people to know, especially if they're thinking about taking Kratom to sort of look into it and look at multiple different sources of people talking about it.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Well, thanks so much to Michael for his time and we'll see you guys next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is the knifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram, henifepodcast or bluesky@the knifepodcast.

[Hannah Smith]

This has been an exactly right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith

[Patia Eaton]

and me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[Patia Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Patia Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Michael Cowgill]

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