← The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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- [00:02]
Paisha Eaton
This is exactly right.
- [00:06]
Hulu Series Narrator
The Hulu Original Series Furious is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [00:11]
Starring Emmy Rossum as Alice Black, Furious follows a rookie FBI agent on the hunt for Catherine, played by Lola Petticrew, a mysterious and calculating female serial killer.
- [00:21]
While Alice upholds justice, Catherine kills for it, terrorizing the rich and powerful men of New York in her pursuit of vengeance.
- [00:28]
With secrets that change everything, Alice discovers there's a thin line between hunter and prey.
- [00:33]
Watch the Hulu Original Series Furious, now
- [00:36]
streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
- [00:40]
Amy Ehrett
Goodbye.
- [00:41]
Hannah Smith
Goodbye.
- [00:41]
Hulu Series Narrator
Bite into a stacked sandwich made with Hero bread and the only thing you'll think is delicious.
- [00:47]
Carolyn Murray
You won't think it has up to 19 grams protein, 11 to 32 grams of fiber or just 0 to 5 grams net carbs, but it does. HeroBread. No compromises, just loaves, buns, tortillas, bagels
- [01:00]
Hulu Series Narrator
and noodles packed with flavor right now
- [01:02]
Carolyn Murray
get 10% off at Hero Co with code iHEART. That's H E R O CO iHEART. All figures per serving of Herobread.
- [01:10]
Hulu Series Narrator
See Nutrition Facts on Hero Co. Hello beautiful.
- [01:13]
Amy Ehrett
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- [02:12]
Hannah Smith
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
- [02:18]
Paisha Eaton
The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the Knife or Exactly Right Media. Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Paisha Eaton.
- [02:43]
Hannah Smith
Hi, I'm Hannah Smith and today we're speaking with Carolyn Murray. She has a great YouTube channel called Psychotic in Seattle.
- [02:50]
Paisha Eaton
So I came across Carolyn's YouTube channel because I've always just, you know, working in true crime, right? I've seen a lot of headlines about psychosis and you hear about these incredibly violent acts that are committed when people are in psychosis. But I didn't know much about it and particularly like the experience of being in psychosis.
- [03:16]
Hannah Smith
Right.
- [03:16]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. And Carolyn's YouTube channel is really this open book. And so I thought it would just be really interesting to have a conversation with her.
- [03:25]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. And it's so valuable to speak with someone like her who has gone through these experiences of psychosis. She'll get into it talking about her diagnosis and is currently in a place in her life where she is healthy and stable and supported and is able to speak about her experiences in a way that she can communicate to people who haven't gone through that what she's experienced. And I think it's so valuable because it just creates a lot of understanding and empathy.
- [03:58]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. And you know, also if someone is experiencing symptoms and maybe looking for a similar shared experience, I think her channel is, you know, she's not a doctor, but she is someone who is, like, very relatable. And I think just her authenticity and vulnerability in speaking about it is maybe a safe space for someone who's curious about what they might be experiencing. Yeah, yeah. Carolyn has her own curiosity about psychosis and she's coming to it from this unique perspective of having experienced it. And so, yeah, I think everyone will be really interested to hear what she has to say.
- [04:35]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah.
- [04:36]
Hannah Smith
Let's get into it. This episode mentions an incident of self harm. Please take care while listening. If you are in the United States or its territories, the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. You can call or text 988 to connect with a trained crisis counselor.
- [05:01]
Paisha Eaton
Carolyn, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.
- [05:05]
Carolyn Murray
Oh, yeah, I'm glad to be here.
- [05:06]
Hannah Smith
Can you start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself?
- [05:10]
Carolyn Murray
I'm Carolyn Murray and I am a lot of things. I'm an artist. I'm a mediocre musician. I make a lot of mental health content online under the name Psychotic. In Seattle, I focus specifically on psychosis because that has affected me the most. And I really just try to educate people about it and spread awareness of what it is and help family members through it especially.
- [05:38]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah, I came across your YouTube channel, which we'll talk more about. But I knew immediately I wanted to reach out because as someone who works in true crime, and I end up reading a lot of crime headlines and, you know, one thing that I see from time to time is crimes related to psychosis or crimes that take place while someone is in a state of psychosis. And I think maybe a lot of us have a curiosity about what that looks and feels like to experience. But I also want to make sure we talk about, from your perspective, what is misunderstood about the experience and living with any sort of mental illness where psychosis could be present. So I would love to just start out with a little bit about you and your childhood, where you grew up.
- [06:30]
Carolyn Murray
I'm from Chicago, Illinois. I was born in the city, but then I was raised out in the suburbs. And I come from a long line of people with mental illness, but we didn't really know that for a long time. A lot of people in my family are diagnosed with mental illnesses. But, you know, for my mom, she wasn't diagnosed until, like, her 50s. So growing up around, you know, a mentally ill parent, she has bipolar disorder. You see a lot of mania, you see a lot of hyperactivity and, you know, reckless behaviors, and just think it's normal. My hometown, in general, was struggling a lot with mental illness when I was in high school, and we had a string of suicides in my high school. And so that kind of opened the conversation for mental health within our community.
- [07:20]
Hannah Smith
Was that the first time you had thought about mental health, even though, as you said, looking back, it was present in your life? But had you ever really, like, taken time to consider that before?
- [07:32]
Carolyn Murray
I honestly didn't know anything about mental health until it reached a breaking point for me, because I grew up depressed. I had depression from a really, really young age, but I didn't know the word depressed. I didn't know what mental illness was. I'd never heard of it. And when it got to the point that my twin sister was getting into therapy, I realized, oh, there's a name for this. Like, this is actually a thing. I had no idea until then. And I think I was about 16 or 17 before I finally got help. And at that point, I'd been depressed most of my life with no idea.
- [08:08]
Paisha Eaton
Growing up in a household and in a family that now, in hindsight, you look back and see there were signs of mental illness in the home. When did you first start experiencing symptoms in your adolescence?
- [08:26]
Carolyn Murray
Well, around the time I was in middle school, I started having suicidal ideations, which was really scary because I didn't know what that was. I didn't know, like, why I was so fixated on death. And then, like, the older I got, the more it became into, like, planning a suicide and making attempts and then I think I had a really bad attempt when I was 17 that kind of like shocked everyone into, oh, this is serious, we need to handle this now.
- [08:58]
Hannah Smith
Was that the first time that people in your life, you're saying it was a really bad attempt and you don't have to go into details, but was it to the point where people in your life realized what you were doing and it scared them?
- [09:11]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah, I had tried telling people once I was aware of what it was, because like I said, there were a lot of suicides in my high school. And so at that point I knew what I was getting into. And I tried telling people, like, hey, you know, I think I'm suicidal. You know, I think I might end it. And they didn't take me seriously. They just thought I was like an attention seeking teenager and I just wanted negative attention. And that wasn't the case.
- [09:39]
Hannah Smith
What time period was this? What year?
- [09:42]
Carolyn Murray
I believe it was in 2009.
- [09:46]
Hannah Smith
I hope that things are different now. You know, we've all experienced on this call, like, the evolution of awareness of mental health. And back then it just wasn't always something that there was education or awareness on. But that's really scary to think that you, like, told people and they didn't take you seriously.
- [10:04]
Carolyn Murray
Oh, yeah. Well, in 2009, that wasn't something people talked about, at least in my community. And I think I was diagnosed bipolar type 2 around then as well, because I'd started having hypomania then.
- [10:18]
Paisha Eaton
What is hypomania?
- [10:20]
Carolyn Murray
So with bipolar disorder, you have depression and mania, and the mania is really, really elevated. Moods and talking really fast and making impulsive decisions and staying up for nights and nights on end. But to everyone else, I just looked like, you know, this talkative, chatty kid with a lot of energy. So again, people didn't really see it for what it was. And it wasn't until my suicide attempt that, you know, we all really focused in on what's going on with Carolyn.
- [10:50]
Paisha Eaton
You know, I think for every person, adolescent years, teenage years, so much of that time internally for a person is spent figuring out, like, who they are and wanting to be accepted by peer groups and family, but also maybe trying to be themselves and that not necessarily working for some of those people that you wanted to fit in with. And I think it sounds like in your case it's part of why the bigger conversation gets lost is like, attributed to just, she's a kid, you know.
- [11:22]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah, like, you're too young to go through this. You know, you're like developing you don't know yourself.
- [11:28]
Paisha Eaton
Right. And so at what point do your symptoms progress into hallucinations or fixating on things that were not even making sense to you?
- [11:42]
Carolyn Murray
Well, I was 18 when those symptoms started. And for me, I tend to be very delusional when I'm in psychosis. And I believe things whether I, like, can identify that I'm believing them or not. I can't help but believe them. So in my first episode, I could tell something was going on. I just knew that I had these really crazy beliefs, and I couldn't understand why they had such a grip on me. I knew I was being irrational, but I couldn't help that from happening. I think all these really violent things were happening that weren't. And I. I was, like, constantly second guessing myself. Am I crazy? What is this? Like, I don't know what's happening to me, but I know something bad is happening and I can't identify it.
- [12:27]
Paisha Eaton
There was one moment you spoke about in a video of yours where you start becoming sort of afraid of your cat and this association with a movie. Yeah, I thought that was a really insightful example. I wonder if you would share it here.
- [12:42]
Carolyn Murray
It was so surreal because this is my cat I'd had since I was in first grade, and I loved her. But then after, I think I saw, like, a clip of Nightmare on Elm street and I thought my cat was Freddy Krueger. And I was so afraid of her that I was, like, running to my bed to get away from her. And I could tell myself that didn't make sense. And there was no way that was possible. But there was just as strong of a belief that she really was Freddy Krueger, that I didn't want to mess around with, that I, you know, I wanted to be sure.
- [13:18]
Hannah Smith
Can you kind of, like, explain that a little bit? Because I think we've all had the experience of watching a scary movie, and then suddenly it's like, is there someone in my house or, like, freaking yourself out? Was it like that or was it different? Did you look at your cat and your cat looked different?
- [13:32]
Carolyn Murray
Well, when you watch a scary movie and you. And you leave with that scared feeling, right. Eventually it will pass. Like, maybe you go to bed in the next day, you're not feeling the same way. But this is something that wouldn't go away. I didn't see her any differently. But, you know, I figured, well, Freddy Krueger's like a shapeshifter or something, so he could be any form. And every time I would try to Come up with a justification for why that wasn't true. Like, well, she can't possibly be Freddy Krueger because yada, yada, yada, this part in my brain would go, well, what if? And sort of elaborate on that and have a new explanation. Like, there's nothing that could change my mind because my brain had some kind of a workaround for any solution I might find.
- [14:16]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [14:17]
Paisha Eaton
Was this something you could share with anyone in your household that you were having this fear about?
- [14:23]
Carolyn Murray
I thought it was so ridiculous that I kept it to myself because there was this part of me that knew this doesn't make any sense. And so I just kept it to myself. I kept a lot of it to myself for a long time until the beliefs just became so violent that I was scared enough to go to the hospital.
- [14:43]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah, it sounds like this fear of your cat, this example of that fear is both something you were understanding was not real, but also just something that had really taken hold in your mind and was hard to put to rest. These symptoms then, do they continue progressing and what leads to your diagnosis?
- [15:08]
Carolyn Murray
So it was my second episode where it reached that point where I didn't have the ability to differentiate reality anymore. And that was when I was 23, and I was, you know, getting picked up by police for getting lost, wandering around town, not knowing where I was. I didn't know who I was, and I was taken to the hospital. It took months for me to even understand what they were telling me, because I just couldn't believe it. When they said, you have schizoaffective disorder, I'd think, well, you know, I know I'm being demonically possessed, and that would be preferable. But I can't believe you.
- [15:49]
Paisha Eaton
You know, you use the term wandering, so you're just walking directionless until someone calls authorities and says that you need help.
- [16:01]
Carolyn Murray
That was one part of it. I really couldn't be alone with myself because I might, you know, act on delusions or something. Like, if I thought that my apartment was bugged, I threw away a lot of my stuff. Like, I thought my jewelry was bugged, so I threw away my jewelry. And the wandering was, initially, I'm scared of my apartment. I have to get out of here. But then once I left, I didn't have anywhere to go, and I would spend hours just walking.
- [16:27]
Hannah Smith
Were you living by yourself at the time?
- [16:30]
Carolyn Murray
I was, yeah. I had an apartment by myself, and I just couldn't take care of myself. I couldn't take care of my hygiene. I couldn't cook for Myself, because I was so lost in all of it that I wouldn't know what time of day it was or that I needed to eat. Sometimes I thought that food was other stuff, like human flesh. Or I might think that if I drank water, it was poison. So I was really, really unwell.
- [16:57]
Hannah Smith
We've just heard a few stories of people talking about progression of some mental health disorders and that happening in this time period that's just like kind of post high school early adulthood. Which is interesting because that's also the time when you're. You're not like going to high school every day where there's adults around, you're not living with your parents. And I'm just wondering because it sounds like by the time you were 23, things had really changed from being able to still go to school, but having these thoughts of my cat is Freddy Krueger. But managing that in a way like in your own brain and the outside world, still perceiving you, not perceiving any of this. And then when you're 23, it's like you can't hide it anymore. But what was that progression from being 16 to 23? Like, did you go to college? Was this like a slow progression or was there like a. Something that made it happen really quickly?
- [17:58]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah, so there was a break between those two episodes for a few years where I was relatively okay because the first time that I was psychotic, I had people around me who could tell what was going on. I mean, not to the extent that it was the second time where I lost all awareness, but I was able to tell. Tell them what's happening is really crazy. I need to go to the hospital. And so I was able to get on medication that time. I didn't get a diagnosis, but I was helped. And then I went to college and I had friends there and, you know, it was. It was a really great time until it wasn't. I started being really, really depressed in college. I started getting bullied. And so I left for that reason because of how depressed I was, the bullying and whatnot, and without anyone around me. The second time, it just slipped past that point where I could ask for help, you know, and I didn't have people seeing just how bad it was.
- [18:56]
Hulu Series Narrator
The Hulu original series Furious is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. From Liz Meriwether, the Emmy nominated executive producer of Dying for Sex and the Dropout, comes a gripping psychological thriller.
- [19:08]
Starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows Alice Black, a rookie FBI agent on the hunt for Catherine. The a mysterious and calculating female serial killer.
- [19:17]
It's Alice's first case on the job, and she's already bitten off more than she can chew.
- [19:20]
While Alice believes justice is achieved through law enforcement, Catherine has lost all faith in the legal system.
- [19:25]
She's taken it upon herself to terrorize the rich and powerful men of New York in her pursuit of vengeance.
- [19:31]
As Alice and Catherine's twisted game of cat and mouse unfolds, the lines between good and evil and right and wrong begin to blur.
- [19:37]
With shocking crimes, tangled relationships, and secrets that change everything else, Alice discovers there's a thin line between hunter and prey.
- [19:45]
Watch the Hulu original series Furious, now
- [19:47]
streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers.
- [19:50]
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- [20:51]
Hannah Smith
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- [21:09]
Amy Ehrett
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- [21:13]
Hulu Series Narrator
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- [21:14]
Carolyn Murray
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- [21:19]
Hulu Series Narrator
when network is busy. See terms.
- [21:26]
Paisha Eaton
You mentioned you went out wandering for a long period of time and you were eventually picked up by police and hospitalized. Can you talk to us about this incident leading to your diagnosis and what that was?
- [21:41]
Carolyn Murray
Well, getting picked up by police happened a few times. The first Time I was picked up, there weren't any beds in the hospital, so I just got sent to stay with my mom, but I ran away from her house, too. And the second time I was picked up by the police, they were really abusive towards me, and I think they took advantage of my mental state, you know, and how they treated me. They just treated me less than human. I had no way of protecting myself from abuse, so they took advantage of that. And then again, there wasn't any beds in the hospital, so I just had to keep going home until eventually a bed opened up. And it was like a month before I could actually get hospital. And at that point, I had to be involuntarily hospitalized, which they had plenty of proof that, you know, I wasn't well enough to admit myself. And that was pretty extreme.
- [22:39]
Paisha Eaton
Do you have memories of that time and how you were helped in that setting? If you were helped in that setting?
- [22:47]
Carolyn Murray
It's kind of like having memories on top of memories, because I remember the delusions I was having and believing that I was on a spaceship. But if I peel back that memory, I know it was really the psych ward. I didn't understand what was happening, and I just was in my. I was just in my own world, in my own head.
- [23:08]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. I've listened to a little bit of you speaking on this subject, of your hallucinations and memories being sort of one and the same and having to reflect on them in hindsight and sort of discern what was real and what was not. When you look back on this time, do you remember them separately or together?
- [23:30]
Carolyn Murray
It's a bit of both. It's kind of like I remember primarily what I thought happened, and I sort of have to piece together the clues of what was around me or what people were saying to realize what actually happened. So there are memories I have that I believed were real for, like, over 10 years before I was able to kind of put context clues together and realize that never actually happened. Like, entire people that I thought I was talking to weren't even there. And it would take me years to realize that no one else interacted with them and no one stopped them from harassing me, for instance. I genuinely can't tell the difference a lot of times, sometimes for years.
- [24:15]
Hannah Smith
When you were in the hospital, was there a point when you realized or recognized that something was going on with your brain? Were you having trouble understanding that you were dealing with a mental health disorder?
- [24:31]
Carolyn Murray
Maybe four months after that, I finally realized, because it took a long time for the medication to work Enough that I could believe it. I had no idea. I absolutely had no idea.
- [24:43]
Paisha Eaton
Four months for a medication to start working on. That is a long time. And over the span of those four months, are you hospitalized?
- [24:52]
Carolyn Murray
I wasn't hospitalized the entire time. The symptoms just slowly chipped away. So after I was released from the hospital, I could kind of sort of question what was happening and then go back to having no idea at all. And then I'd have, like 15 minutes or maybe an hour of knowing that I was in psychosis but not being able to help it at all. So I might know that I was psychopathic but still see hallucinations. And it just chipped away like that for months until finally I would have, like, a day or more where I knew I was psychotic, and then I wasn't psychotic at all.
- [25:29]
Paisha Eaton
If you're experiencing these symptoms that are. Sounds like at certain points quite frightening from an outsider's perspective, it's like, oh, maybe that would feel like a relief. But I know that it's not that simple. What was your diagnosis after that?
- [25:43]
Carolyn Murray
Schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. So basically, I have both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder in one.
- [25:50]
Paisha Eaton
Disorder and schizophrenia, I think most of us have some sort of, like, pop culture idea of what it is from film and tv. But what is it?
- [26:01]
Carolyn Murray
Schizophrenia is a break from reality. And so by that, I mean that you kind of have an extra reality imposed on top of ordinary reality. And this reality only applies to the person going through it. No one else can see or hear anything that's going on. But to this person, it is so realistic that even if you were to know what was happening, you might not be able to discern what's real from what's not real. So you might have hallucinations which affect all five of your senses. You could have visual hallucinations of seeing, like, shadow people or environments. I used to see, like, outer space all around me. You could have auditory hallucinations, which for most people would be voices, But I would hear other things like doorbells ringing and car engines, which is why it was so hard to tell. It sounds exactly like it did.
- [27:00]
Hannah Smith
Your, you know, this secondary reality that's sort of overlaid with the reality that the rest of the people are experiencing. As you talked about that you couldn't perceive wasn't real until, you know, the medication started kicking in. Did it have a common theme? Like, from some of the things that you've said, it sounds like it was mostly scary. Was it all scary or what was that like?
- [27:24]
Carolyn Murray
Most of it was Scary. And then there were some things that were kind of neutral. Like when I would hear a doorbell ring, that was mostly just annoying because I'd go to check the door and there'd be no one there. But most of it was really, really violent, gory. But I was very paranoid. I think maybe the most common theme was just thinking that someone was after me. And on top of that, there'd just be, like, really horrific sights or thinking just violent, violent things were happening.
- [27:55]
Paisha Eaton
One thing that really made me want to learn more about psychosis and the experience of it because of my work in the quote, like, true crime genre is the fear that it instills in the people who are experiencing it. And you had shared with me an experience with psychosis that you had where you really feared that you had done something and what that felt like for you.
- [28:21]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah. I was married at the time. This was my third episode, and it was a particularly dark episode. I was up late that night, and my husband had gone to sleep before me. And when I came into our bedroom, I thought he was dead. And I thought I was the one that had killed him. I believed that I'd caught him up with an ax and, like, there he was, lying in bed, looking cut up into pieces. And it was horrifying. And I didn't remember doing it, but I still believed I'd done it. And I was so scared that I ran away from home that night, hitchhiked into town. I wandered around until I found a police officer, and I turned myself into her and said that I'd killed my husband. And fortunately, she took me to the psych ward instead of the police station.
- [29:16]
Hannah Smith
Okay, just so I am clear on this, so at the time you were married and you were living with your husband, one day you walked into the bedroom, and what you saw was this horrible and gruesome scene where it was clear that he had been killed, had been murdered. And you immediately believed that you were the one that killed him. So you then left the apartment and found a police officer and turned yourself in. How are you feeling in that moment?
- [29:47]
Carolyn Murray
Oh, gosh, it was terrifying. It was the worst feeling in the world. I felt so wracked with guilt and grief because I really did love my husband. And it killed me to think that he was dead. And I felt just heartbroken that I thought I was the one who had done it. I was frantic. I felt desperate. I didn't know what to do. But I couldn't live with myself. I just couldn't live with myself for having done that. So that's why I turned myself in, because I didn't want to carry that burden and not be accountable. Which is wild to me that that was my response at the time, because I don't think many people who commit a crime like that would have that response to turn themselves in like that.
- [30:36]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Wow, that's so scary to think that you actually did that and living in that reality. Was that before or after what you previously talked about when you were 23, living alone and went to the psych hospital and sort of had your diagnos?
- [30:53]
Carolyn Murray
This was after. This was when I was 25 and I had gone off of my medication, because once I was stable on medication and I didn't have symptoms anymore, I thought, oh, well, it's just a fluke, you know, I'm fine. I don't need these. So that's how I learned real fast to stay on my medication, because it was only a few weeks before I was psychotic again.
- [31:17]
Paisha Eaton
So you ran out of your apartment, found a police officer, and immediately confess because you think you've murdered your husband. And fortunately, this person takes you to a psych hospital and doesn't just arrest you. Do you know how she knew that you were having a psychotic episode and that you hadn't actually just killed someone?
- [31:37]
Carolyn Murray
No idea. Oh, I'm just really fortunate that she did. Something about what I was saying must have just sounded, you know, clearly psychotic.
- [31:46]
Paisha Eaton
And so how long were you hospitalized after that episode of psychosis, and what did your recovery look like from that
- [31:55]
Carolyn Murray
episode where I thought I'd killed him? I think I was in the hospital maybe a month. And it was like the time before where it took several months for the medication to work well enough that I would come out of the episode. And it was really horrifying after the fact to realize everything that had happened, because when I was in psychosis, I had no idea that I'd married someone. Because I met him while I was in psychosis and married him two weeks later. I had no idea I was in an abusive marriage. I had, you know, no money anymore because he'd taken all my money. I had no way out of the relationship. It was horrifying. And, of course, I had no idea going through it. I thought I was in this little fairyland where I had this husband who was God and he was gonna protect me from demons after my soul. To find out none of that was real was about as scary as the psychosis, because all of a sudden, I was just legally bound to some stranger that I didn't even know, wow.
- [33:02]
Hannah Smith
So you had gone off your meds when you were, like, 25ish, because you'd been, like, pretty stable for a couple of years, and you didn't realize that, you know, you were starting to have symptoms again of psychosis, and it was during that time that you met and married this man?
- [33:20]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah. And so I got out of the marriage pretty much immediately. As soon as I wasn't psycho, I was actually still psychotic. But I was well enough to know what had happened, and I was able to get a legal annulment, and so our marriage was absolved in court.
- [33:35]
Hannah Smith
And were you in contact with any of your family during this time?
- [33:40]
Carolyn Murray
He wouldn't let me talk to any of my friends or family, and I wasn't allowed to tell anyone I was married. So I was really isolated because he had me staying in this house with him and I couldn't leave. It was, like, out in the farmland. So I had to, like, literally run away from home to get away from him.
- [33:59]
Paisha Eaton
Where were you living at that time?
- [34:02]
Carolyn Murray
Out in Washington. So I'm from Chicago, but I moved out here to Washington, and I was living in a town called Burlington, which is maybe like an hour north of Seattle.
- [34:11]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. I mean, very rural.
- [34:13]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah.
- [34:13]
Paisha Eaton
Very isolated. If you're in the wrong situation.
- [34:17]
Carolyn Murray
Oh, yeah.
- [34:18]
Paisha Eaton
So once you were able to have the marriage absolved, you said it was annulled, is that right?
- [34:25]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah.
- [34:26]
Paisha Eaton
Where do you go at that point to sort of start rebuilding?
- [34:31]
Carolyn Murray
Well, my mom let me stay on her couch for a couple of weeks, and then one of my friends invited me to live with him. And I got sober because a large part of my psychosis was smoking marijuana, which makes it so much worse. So I got sober and moved into sober living and then just kind of got up on my feet from there.
- [34:53]
Paisha Eaton
When you are on your medication and you feel like your mind is clear and everything is stable, what is your outlook for your life? Like, how has this impacted the way that you look at your future?
- [35:06]
Carolyn Murray
I feel a lot more hopeful about my future now. For the first few years, it was really bleak because it was hard to accept that I had a mental illness. I had to go on disability benefits, and that really depressed me. I didn't like the idea that I was disabled. But now, you know, I've made this really great life for myself where I make a lot of art and I do, like, craft fairs and stuff. Stuff. And I do my mental health advocacy online. And so I feel a lot better because I've sort of, like, paved the way for my own future. That's a little unconventional, but it works for me.
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Carolyn Murray
Yeah, it's pretty wild. They've watched us go from dating shows
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Carolyn Murray
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- [38:40]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah, you are incredibly open online and and I imagine it's resonating with a lot of people who either are going through something like what you have been through, or a loved one or a friend. Why is it important to you to share online about psychosis and how it's impacted you?
- [39:03]
Carolyn Murray
Before I ever spoke to anyone about psychosis, I felt so lonely. I was really ashamed of everything I'd been through. I was resentful, I guess, towards myself for even just going through it. I just hated my brain for betraying me like that. I felt isolated and no one was talking about it. So I felt like the only person that this stuff had happened to. I met a woman with schizoaffective disorder who just shared openly about it. And I had a conversation with her. And that's kind of what sparked it, was she was the first person I'd ever talked about psychosis with, and it blew my mind. I, like, immediately started to feel better about myself knowing that a lot of what she'd been through, I'd been through too. And then when I started talking about it online and other people were kind of sharing that same perspective of like, wow, you know, I've never heard anyone talk about this like, you have, like, I can really relate to you. It helped me because other people had been through what I'd been through. But also I was realizing that same, like, isolation I'd been in. And that loneliness affected so many people. And I didn't. I just. It breaks my heart to think other people go through what I've been through at all.
- [40:21]
Paisha Eaton
You've also shared about how people can best show up to support friends or loved ones with schizoaffective disorder or maybe something like it. How can people do that?
- [40:34]
Carolyn Murray
I honestly think the best way to support a person is, like, acts of service, like helping them around the house if they're not capable of doing their dishes or cooking, being able to help them with those basic needs. My sister was my caregiver. She lived with me and she was basically, as she said, a glorified babysitter because she mostly just kept me safe from wandering away. She kept me safe from Any delusions that might make me want to hurt myself. She cooked meals for us. She thinks that it wasn't a big deal, but it was a really, really, really big deal to me. Like, I needed a lot of emotional support and she comforted me a lot. You know, she would tell me that I was safe, which I really needed to hear. You know, just caring for a person as if they're themselves not treating them any different. Because I didn't like being treated like I was some kind of a kid or less than human, you know, like, this is still your family member. This is still. They're still in there. Maybe they don't seem like they're in there, but they are. And you just wanted to be treated like a normal person, like anyone else.
- [41:41]
Paisha Eaton
What do you feel like is most missing from the conversation or the headlines when someone does commit a violent act in psychosis, to me, it seems like
- [41:55]
Carolyn Murray
people think there's a choice. Like, to me, it seems like people think these people in psychosis that are committing acts of violence are in any way choosing to do that. And that's not the case. If you think of, like, survival situations, people have to make really difficult decisions and they might not get a lot of time to make that decision. Like, it's pretty dire. So when you have people that are acting on fear or they're acting in what they think is self defense, they're not thinking through these actions. They're not necessarily thinking in their right mind to choose to do something like that. It's usually something against their character that they would never, ever, ever, ever do. So this isn't something that's like a decision made by someone in their right mind. This is a decision made for them by an illness that's taking control of them.
- [42:47]
Hannah Smith
How does that make you think about your relationship with, like, I don't know, your brain? Because in some senses, I feel like it'd be easy to feel, like, betrayed when you're out of those psychosis episodes, thinking back, like, betrayed by your own brain, you know? And I don't want to give too much meaning to something that might be meaningless in psychosis, but it's interesting thinking about how you were trapped in this scenario with this man who had convinced you to marry him. And it's interesting that your brain, like, you did get out of it, but in this really unconventional way where you thought you had committed a horrific homicide and fled the scene. But really you were like. That was like you getting out of this abusive scenario or the first step. So I'm Just curious, like, how do you think about your relationship with your brain? Like, does it make you angry? Is there a part of you that has come to peace with it or understanding or what do you think about that?
- [43:51]
Carolyn Murray
I just feel like when I'm not well, I can't trust myself. I can't trust my brain. My brain has just the worst intentions for me. But at the same time, in that situation, I am grateful that there must have been some kind of survival instinct in me that recognized this is a situation I need to get out of. Like, part of me really does think that I had that delusion and hallucination in part because my brain was trying to tell me, this is really bad. You need to get out of here. I don't think I could have gotten help if it hadn't been for my brain just deciding to do that really violent thing. So part of me is really grateful that some weird little corner of my brain decided to help out. But mostly, like, I can't trust that guy in my head that that brain of mine has a totally different plan for me.
- [44:45]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, that makes sense. And then the other question I had was that something we hear a lot in the media about people specifically with schizophrenia or different versions of that, that oftentimes you'll hear about a resistance to taking medication. And maybe that's just because you only hear about the people who are resistant to taking it. But I'm curious to ask you about it because it sounds like you recognize that the medication has helped you a lot. What is your feeling about, you know, your relationship with the medication?
- [45:20]
Carolyn Murray
It's hard to take medication at the beginning because, you know, I'd think that I was a robot. And you can't give medication to a robot or I think the medication was poison or like a chip they were trying to track me with. And that's when it started. It's so difficult because that's when you need it the most, and that's when a person is, like, the most resistant to taking it. But now that I'm on it and I've kind of like built that momentum of taking it every day, I'm so enormously grateful for my medication. It was really hard to become med compliant and take it every day. Sometimes I'd be okay with taking it. Sometimes I would really think it was poison. It was one of the hardest hurdles in coming out of psychosis, for sure.
- [46:04]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. And so right now it's been. I think you said it's been five years since you have had a psychotic episode.
- [46:13]
Carolyn Murray
I think yeah, in May of this. Oh, wow. Was it March? I think it's been six years now, actually.
- [46:21]
Paisha Eaton
Wow.
- [46:21]
Carolyn Murray
Oh, my gosh. As of March? Yeah.
- [46:23]
Paisha Eaton
That seems like a huge moment. That's a lot of time.
- [46:27]
Carolyn Murray
That's the most I've ever gone. That's really incredible to me.
- [46:31]
Paisha Eaton
That's awesome. Does this also mean that your auditory hallucinations, like the engine rev or the doorbell ringing, do you not hear those?
- [46:40]
Carolyn Murray
Currently, most of the time, I don't have hallucinations at all. But even on medication, when I'm really, really stressed, I will hear things. So for instance, I was really stressed recently, and I heard a couple voices one day, but that went away, which was great. Before that, I had a really stressful job where I was hearing my name being called and people talking to me. Like, all this time, it was really annoying because I couldn't tell if it was real or not. So I knew I was hallucinating, but it just sounded so realistic that I could, like, hear the direction it was coming from and the volume and the sound of the voice. And the only way I could tell is if I turned and there was no one there. So it doesn't happen that often. It just happens when I'm really, really stressed.
- [47:26]
Paisha Eaton
That's so interesting and so great to hear that, you know, six years has passed since having an episode that feels like a big chunk of your life.
- [47:36]
Carolyn Murray
Oh, my gosh, it's so wonderful. My life is so much better now. It takes years to undo all of that damage seriously. Because even once you get rid of hallucinations and delusions, you lose a lot of cognitive abilities, too, or at least I did. So I struggled with reading comprehension and memory and attention and focus and, you know, things that had come really easily before. So even that alone can take years to recover from, or just the trauma of it all takes years. I had to work on a lot
- [48:07]
Paisha Eaton
of it in therapy because these experiences, real or not, feel real to you, and that would be very traumatic to live through.
- [48:17]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah, it's a real trauma. It's not a real experience necessarily, but it's a real trauma because I take away the feelings and the memories and the fear from it as if it really did happen.
- [48:30]
Paisha Eaton
That makes total sense.
- [48:31]
Hannah Smith
That's really interesting. I guess I never thought about that. Like, I thought about the trauma of if I think about someone going through psychosis of, you know, when you talked about not being able to function or take care of yourself or hold down a job or know where you were, and that whole chunk of time that you're sort of in this state feels innately traumatic. But I hadn't thought about the things that you saw, heard, tasted, experienced that were part of the psychosis that weren't real. Like, you came to eventually understand they weren't real. But if you think that you've murdered someone, you're still experiencing all of that emotion and trauma and shock that someone who did murder someone or someone that walked in and saw their husband dead would experience. Is that what you're saying, like, all of that still lives in your body?
- [49:29]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah, absolutely. Like, I distinctly remember what it felt like to be a killer. Like, it's a horrible feeling that I wouldn't wish on anyone. It's a terrible, terrible feeling. And, you know, having that reaction that, like, very, very human reaction before really thinking, oh, wait, well, let's think rationally about this, you know, because I couldn't. Having that reaction that anyone would have if it were real is just as realistic to me as if it had really happened. So I feel so many feelings related to things that are not even possible, but I reacted to them the way anyone would if it really did happen.
- [50:07]
Paisha Eaton
And so your support system now, do you live close by your sister or, you know, can you tell us a little bit about how you're doing today?
- [50:13]
Carolyn Murray
I live on my own again, which is working out for me just great. I have a lot of independence, and I'm involved in the mental health recovery community. So I have a lot of friends like me who have schizoaffective or schizophrenia. And it's really nice to be around people that understand and relate. So I have a lot of support. My family lives in Chicago, but I see them every once in a while, and they're still very much a part of my support team.
- [50:39]
Paisha Eaton
That's great. Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for speaking with us today. And I think anyone who comes across your YouTube channel looking for support or hope or just shared experience will be really glad to have found it.
- [50:53]
Carolyn Murray
Thank you. I sure hope so. I like to help people. I try.
- [50:57]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, we really appreciate you opening up and telling us about your experiences. And what's the name of your channel?
- [51:05]
Carolyn Murray
It's called Psychotic in Seattle. You can find me by my name, Carolyn Murray. And I also am on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook under the same name, Psychotic in Seattle.
- [51:17]
Paisha Eaton
Great. Well, thank you so much, Carolyn.
- [51:19]
Carolyn Murray
Yeah, thank you guys so much. This has been wonderful.
- [51:26]
Hannah Smith
That was so fascinating to me. I have never talked to anyone like that before, like, or had a conversation in that vein before.
- [51:35]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. I mean, getting to ask Carolyn all of the questions that I've had about it without feeling like, you know, it feels invasive to ask someone about, like, symptoms that they experience as part of their mental illness. But I think it's helpful to have these conversations and try to understand, because that experience gets lost when we read about crimes where psychosis has played a role. Because then there's often another victim.
- [52:05]
Hannah Smith
Right.
- [52:06]
Paisha Eaton
Who is highlighted far more than, obviously, the person who committed the act.
- [52:11]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [52:11]
Paisha Eaton
But then it's like, in them, that was their mental illness.
- [52:16]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. I mean, it gets tricky. Right. Because if someone commits a horrible crime in psychosis, it's still a crime. So that's, like, a really sticky area. But I do think a lot of times the headlines sort of reduce a person to a diagnosis or mental illness, and we lose, like, the whole person aspect of it. And speaking with Carolyn was just so helpful in understanding her experience and how scary it was for her when she was in there experiencing psychosis and trying to figure it out. Like, she's trying to help herself and sort through this situation that, you know, it's almost like she's battling her own mind and how scary that really was. And I really appreciated also her thoughts about support in her life and how vital that has been, just having, like, really loving, present support in her life. And I know that that's also probably really complicated for some people who have family members who deal with mental illness and psychosis. But even just the conversation around taking medication, I appreciated her thoughts about some of the barriers and how tricky it can be. Like, when you know you need it, but then your brain is telling you
- [53:34]
Paisha Eaton
you don't need it because you're feeling great. And why would you take this, like, incredibly strong medication if you're feeling great, like, it's counterintuitive. And if your brain is telling that, you know, it's also. It's not like, out in the world, someone with schizoaffective disorder knows a bunch of other people going through it that they can ask.
- [53:55]
Hannah Smith
Right.
- [53:55]
Paisha Eaton
Somewhat rare. And I actually looked into that, and it looks like schizoaffective disorder affects approximately 0.3 to 0.5% of the general population, which is about one in every two to 300 people. That's according to Yale Medicine. And so that's why I think her, you know, speaking on her YouTube channel so candidly about her experience is just so great that she's so open about it. And I certainly, like, was fascinated by parts of the conversation. Maybe it's Just like a morbid curiosity or something. But learning how their memories are affected by their hallucinations. I mean, I had never considered that before.
- [54:40]
Hannah Smith
No. Or even the trauma that memories can cause, even if they're not a reflection of reality. That was something I hadn't thought about. Right. When Carolyn talked about believing that she had killed her husband. How traumatic that is if that feels real to you.
- [55:00]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. It's like I think all of us at some point or another, have woken up from just like your everyday nightmare and been so relieved that it wasn't real.
- [55:09]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [55:11]
Paisha Eaton
And, you know, but then you just go on and it's not a memory. You typically can't even remember those the day after they happen.
- [55:17]
Hannah Smith
Fades away.
- [55:18]
Paisha Eaton
Fades away. Yeah. Maybe you remember a little bit if you immediately tell someone. But, you know, Carolyn lives with a lot of those memories because they are, I think she said, superimposed over her actual reality. And, yeah, that is very traumatic.
- [55:34]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [55:35]
Paisha Eaton
She also spoke about, you know, waiting for beds at hospitals. Yeah. Carolyn brought this experience of having to call back and say, is there a bed ready? Is there a bed ready? Is there a bed ready? And that's something I had learned happens from that podcast, Lost Patience, where, you know, even if you are ready and willing to check in to get help, you may just not be able to.
- [56:02]
Hannah Smith
I haven't listened to that season yet. I listened to the second season adults in the room, which I loved. So I need to go back and listen to Lost Patients. But what generally is the reason for that of there not being beds available?
- [56:15]
Paisha Eaton
I think a lack of funding is the reason. But, yeah, one thing I really appreciated about that podcast is they talked about this. They never used the word broken system because they talked a lot about how the system isn't broken. This is just how this system operates, and that's why it's a problem.
- [56:35]
Hannah Smith
Wow, that's a really great differentiation.
- [56:38]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. It's like there's no excuse for why this is operating in this way. And, you know, there's really tragic stories in that series about people who just didn't get the help that they should have had.
- [56:53]
Hannah Smith
And you hear about people getting turned away or released from psychiatric hospitals, maybe in ways that might not be beneficial to their health. And I don't know if that's also just an issue of not having enough room or lack of funding, or maybe
- [57:10]
Paisha Eaton
it's an insurance thing. I mean, I think maybe a lot of us by now have heard about the Lindsay Clancy case happening and possible postpartum psychosis. Lindsay Clancy is a mother of three in Massachusetts who's on trial for murdering her children. I mean, it's the most horrific thing that could happen. And she was a nurse, and she had sought help with her mental health. She was on a lot of medication. I mean, I don't know all of the details, but I believe she was suffering from postpartum psychosis and maybe postpartum depression, a postpartum mood disorder that potentially caused her to do this. And she was, by all accounts, friends and family, including her husband and the father of those children, a good mother.
- [58:01]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, we've been looking for an episode to do in this sort of area. It's hard to do an episode where children are killed. I feel like it's just, like, that's a really tough topic. But. But I do think that doing something on postpartum psychosis is something that we both are really interested in talking about and want to highlight, because it happens. And I feel like our society is just not interested in hearing about it, like, so much to do with.
- [58:30]
Paisha Eaton
Because it's so difficult being a mom. Yeah. And it's like, I've had, you know, prelim calls. I mean, you know, this. Like, I spoke to someone a while back who had experienced postpartum psychosis, and I had reached out to her because she had posted on Facebook sharing her experience, and she ultimately wasn't ready to do an interview on a podcast, which I can understand, and her kids are with her and healthy, and everyone's doing good now, but she just. She had to check herself in, and she said it was, like, the most traumatizing experience of her life. And so much fear of losing access to your children, because then people become afraid of you. And. And, you know, I think those are the stories that maybe don't get talked about because people want to leave it in the past or they don't want the judgment. And it's more common, I think, than we realize. Yeah, it's hard to watch, but there's a documentary, I think it's called when the Bow Breaks, and it's produced, I think, by Brooke Shields, and it's about women who have suffered from postpartum psychosis. And it's. You know, they're real accounts. And, I mean, look, the stories are really difficult to hear.
- [59:41]
Hannah Smith
I'm seeing a scripted movie. This is a horror mystery. That's not the right one.
- [59:46]
Paisha Eaton
Not the right one. It's an intense watch. But, you know, I think that it certainly gave me a lot of understanding and compassion for people in that situation, and I just my heart goes out to them. That's a living nightmare.
- [60:01]
Hannah Smith
Truly.
- [60:02]
Paisha Eaton
Carolyn even said to me, and maybe also on our interview, and she certainly speaks about it on her channel, her own concerns with motherhood at some point because she is predisposed to having these, you know, experiencing psychosis and you know, it's just like she has to think about so many different things that a lot of us I think take for granted.
- [60:22]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. It's so great that she has her channel psychotic in Seattle and is humanizing this experience and just telling her story and connecting with other people. I think it's so fantastic.
- [60:35]
Paisha Eaton
Yeah. And even if you're just curious, like I think there's a normal curiosity that's like what does the hallucination feel like? She really digs into it. And anyway, I'm just a huge fan. So thank you, Carolyn for taking the time to speak with us. We really appreciate it.
- [60:51]
Hannah Smith
That's our episode. We'll be back next week.
- [60:55]
Paisha Eaton
If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is the knifegood exactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram, henifepodcast or blueskynifepodcast.
- [61:05]
Hannah Smith
This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith
- [61:10]
Paisha Eaton
and me, Peisha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and Alexis Amorosi.
- [61:14]
Hannah Smith
This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogel.
- [61:17]
Paisha Eaton
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
- [61:19]
Hannah Smith
Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
- [61:21]
Paisha Eaton
Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
- [61:23]
Hannah Smith
Executive produced by Karen K. Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
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Amy Ehrett
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Carolyn Murray
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Whether you're looking to repair, strengthen, hydrate or add shine. You'll find brands like Kerastas, K18 and Gisu.
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Carolyn Murray
Plus the guidance that helped you choose what's right for your hair. And with free shipping and same day delivery, great.
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Carolyn Murray
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Hannah Smith
Available comparison based on publicly available data
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Hulu Series Narrator
regarding Cargo Room and 2026 entry All
- [62:32]
Carolyn Murray
Wheel Drive CUVs as of May 2026
- [62:34]
Hannah Smith
entry All Wheel Drive CUV Class as
- [62:35]
Paisha Eaton
defined by Kia segmentation the Hulu Original
- [62:38]
Hulu Series Narrator
Series Furious is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Starring Emmy Rossom as Alice Black, Furious follows a rookie FBI agent on the hunt for Catherine, played by Lola Petticrew, a mysterious and calculating female ser. While Alice upholds justice, Catherine kills for it, terrorizing the rich and powerful men of New York in her pursuit of vengeance. With secrets that change everything, Alice discovers there's a thin line between hunter and prey. Watch the Hulu Original Series Furious, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.