Podcast Summary: The Knife: A True Crime Podcast — Off Record: The Promise of a Cure

Episode Date: February 19, 2026
Hosts: Hannah Smith & Pasha Eaton

Overview

This episode dives into the story of Antonella Carpenter, a self-styled “doctor” who claimed she could cure cancer with a homemade laser, operating out of multiple clinics across several states. Through the personal stories of patients, legal battles, and the failures of oversight, the hosts examine the dangerous lure of alternative medicine, the power of desperation, and the blurred lines between hope and fraud.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Case (02:36–05:20)

• Pasha Eaton introduces the story of Cindy Babecka, who traveled from Georgia to Arkansas in 2008 to receive cancer treatment from Antonella Carpenter.
• Carpenter guaranteed a cancer cure without chemotherapy, radiation, or surgery using her "LEISH therapy" (Light Induced Enhanced Selective Hyperthermia).
  • The “therapy” involved injecting homemade green dye into tumors and targeting them with a homemade laser. It was both painful and expensive (~$10,000).

Quote:
“She is guaranteeing it. The pitch... is that she is going to kill the tumor and thus cure the cancer.”
— Pasha Eaton (04:10)

Timestamp: 04:07–04:10

2. Patient Vulnerability and Distrust of Medical Institutions (06:08–11:17)

• Many of Carpenter's patients sought alternative treatments to avoid the feared side effects of conventional cancer therapy.
• The hosts reflect on general distrust in the medical system, compounded by the high costs and impersonal care.

Quote:
“You can see how... someone could take these things that are very real complaints and use them to say, well, it's all bad. Don't trust any doctors. Just trust me.”
— Hannah Smith (09:28)

3. False Hope and Tragic Outcomes (07:52–12:08, 22:11–23:19)

• Cindy was convinced by Carpenter to avoid other doctors. Her tumor worsened; she eventually sought medical help too late and died in 2010.
• Another patient, Therese Westfall, similarly believed she was cured after visiting Carpenter, only to discover her cancer had progressed to stage 4.

Notable Moment:
Hosts discuss how patients told that their bodies were "expelling" dead tumors were actually experiencing tumor growth—a sign of the progression, not healing (08:26–08:35).

4. Carpenter's Credentials and Background (12:09–13:39)

• Carpenter claimed degrees in physics and called herself a doctor, but had no medical license and admitted she wasn’t a medical doctor.
• Despite patient deaths, she continued operating and attracting desperate clients.

Quote:
“Not a doctor. Not a carpenter either.”
— Hannah Smith (11:41–11:42)

5. Expansion, Lawsuits, and Law Enforcement Struggles (15:14–28:03)

• Carpenter advertised in health food stores, promising "Star Wars level technology."
• White-collar and medical fraud is often treated as a civil, not criminal matter.
• Therese Westfall’s lawsuit resulted in a $2.5 million judgment, which she never received; Carpenter simply moved her operations to another state.
• The FDA eventually investigated using undercover agents, raiding the Oklahoma clinic in 2012 and shutting her down.

Quote:
“All she has to do is cross state lines and she evades responsibility.”
— Pasha Eaton (27:16)

6. Conspiracies and Carpenter’s Motivations (29:45–35:14)

• Carpenter maintained a blog and gave interviews on conspiracy platforms, positioning herself as a victim of “Big Pharma.”
• Hosts reflect on the persuasive power of anti-establishment rhetoric and anger.

Quote:
“She’s selling anger, right? Which as we... see now, is like, a very sellable, very powerful message.”
— Pasha Eaton (33:14–33:21)

7. Trial and Aftermath (41:08–48:48)

• Despite clear evidence of patient harm, Carpenter avoided prison due to strong support from some of her "patients," who testified she had helped them (often despite their disease persisting or getting worse).
• Courts found her guilty of wire and mail fraud; she received probation and a financial penalty, neither of which stopped her operations or compensated victims.

Quote:
“Five of the seven patients who felt defrauded by Carpenter had died before the trial... the people who supported her, they were alive, and so they were able to testify.”
— Pasha Eaton (43:23–43:41)

8. Wider Implications & Reflections on Medical Freedom (49:13–54:22)

• The episode closes on reflection: Desire for medical autonomy must be grounded in facts. Fraud comes not just from personal gain but, as in Carpenter’s case, ego and identity.
• Hosts discuss the legal and ethical challenges posed by nontraditional practitioners and how patient endorsement complicates prosecution.

Quote:
“You want medical autonomy, you want decisions about your body to include you... but we should all be making decisions based on facts.”
— Pasha Eaton (49:06–49:23)

“If someone starts telling you, don’t go see a doctor, run for the hills.”
— Hannah Smith (50:04)

9. Related Recommendation: Medical Liability in Home Births (50:26–54:29)

• Pasha recommends the A&E show Accused: Guilty or Innocent?—an episode involving an unlicensed midwife and a tragic home birth in Nebraska.
• The case illustrates complex intersections of patient choice, legal responsibility, and blurred medical authority—paralleling themes from Carpenter’s story.

Memorable Quotes by Timestamps

• “So Dr. Antonella Carpenter, as she calls herself, she promises to cure cancer without chemotherapy, without radiation, and without surgery.” — Pasha Eaton (03:55)
• “So she has a syringe full of green liquid, and she's just injecting it into people's bodies?” — Hannah Smith (05:21)
• “Which is probably so powerful.” — Hannah Smith on Carpenter’s personal touch attracting patients (10:33)
• “All she has to do is cross state lines and she evades responsibility.” — Pasha Eaton (27:16)
• “She’s selling anger… It’s a very sellable, very powerful message.” — Pasha Eaton (33:14)
• “Five of the seven patients who felt defrauded by Carpenter have died before the trial.” — Pasha Eaton (43:23)
• “If someone starts telling you, don’t go see a doctor, run for the hills.” — Hannah Smith (50:04)

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• 02:36 – Introduction of the Carpenter case
• 05:26 – Mechanics and cost of “LEISH therapy”
• 11:46 – Cindy Babecka’s decline and death
• 14:38 – Lay’s Med Inc. and the confusing branding
• 15:14 – Therese Westfall’s “Star Wars” marketing encounter
• 18:00 – The lure of a “miracle cure” for thousands out-of-pocket
• 23:19 – The lawsuit, Dr. Ward, and civil vs. criminal enforcement
• 28:11 – The FDA’s undercover investigation
• 32:29 – Carpenter's YouTube interview and lack of charisma
• 35:14 – The challenge of prosecution, patient support for Carpenter
• 43:23 – Court case: survivor testimony vs. voices of the deceased
• 46:15 – Final judgment and Carpenter's death
• 49:06 – Reflections on autonomy, fraud, and facts
• 50:26 – Parallels with the home birth midwife case

Episode Tone & Takeaways

The hosts maintain an empathetic, nuanced tone—acknowledging the desperation of cancer patients, the flaws in the U.S. medical system, and how those factors create opportunities for charismatic fraudsters. They highlight the criminal risks of alternative practitioners, the difficulty in criminal prosecution, and the importance of skepticism when hope is being sold as certainty.

The episode is a cautionary tale: Fraud in healthcare thrives where fear, desperation, and distrust take root, and legal consequences do not always halt dangerous actors.

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