One in Infinity

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Knife: A True Crime Podcast"

Episode: "One in Infinity"

Date: February 12, 2026
Hosts: Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton
Featured Guest: Jessica Ayers (Jess), "The Singing Widow"

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Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode explores the profound, lasting impact of a singular, senseless act of violence. Through the first-person account of Jessica Ayers, listeners are taken deeply into the ripple effects of crime: how a gunshot fired by a neighbor under the influence ended the life of Jess’s husband Justin just days after the birth of their son. The discussion emphasizes the distinction between “accident” and “culpability,” the complicated aftermath of sudden loss, and Jess’s continuing journey as she finds purpose in helping others cope with grief.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet Jess: The Singing Widow

• Jess introduces herself as an intern therapist, soon to graduate and open a private practice. She also runs the blog "The Singing Widow" where she shares her journey (03:30).
• Jess describes her life in the Florida panhandle, her musical partnership and marriage with Justin, and their love story, which dated back to their church youth group days (04:23).

2. A Love Story Interrupted

• Jess and Justin’s relationship blossomed from their teens, through college, and into a musical partnership in marriage (05:33–09:20).
• They built a life centered around music, enduring typical financial and career worries, but felt deeply connected and blessed (09:20).

3. The Dream of Family and a New Chapter

• Jess recalls the specific moment when she felt ready for motherhood, and how she and Justin joyfully anticipated their son, Jax (09:36–11:55).
• Jax’s traumatic birth and Justin’s reaction to becoming a father are described with moving detail (13:27):

  "He was just grinning from ear to ear...he was always a good person, but he was just changed in that moment when he became a dad." — Jess (13:27)

4. Moments Before Tragedy

• Jess details the first days at home as a family, capturing small but meaningful moments—riding home with “We Are the Champions” on the radio, watching "Game of Thrones" (17:18).
• She describes the anxiety and physical pain from childbirth, the struggle to breastfeed, and fleeting moments of comfort and normalcy (18:00–22:13).

5. The Shooting: A Random, Reckless Act

• While the family gathers with Justin’s relatives, a sudden "pop" sound—mistaken for breaking glass—marks the precise, incomprehensible instant Justin is killed by a stray bullet (22:16–26:33).

  "I hear screaming and I hear his aunt say Justin. Oh my God, Justin. And I mean just slow motion…" — Jess (22:21)

• The utter confusion and chaos ensue: crawling on the ground, being restrained by family, Jess’s desperate attempt to reach Justin (26:33–30:36).

6. Immediate Aftermath: Grief in Motion

• Jess describes her physical and emotional breakdown, needing to be held down by her father, and the police officer’s clinical notification:

  "'Your husband is deceased.' That was the words he said. God, like, I almost feel like I would have rather heard him say, your husband is dead. I don't know why, like the word deceased..." — Jess (34:15)

• The family’s simultaneous panic, trauma, and the logistics of caring for a newborn in the midst of tragedy (30:36–36:02).

7. The Investigation: Uncovering The Shooter

• Police locate the source: a man squatting illegally behind their cul-de-sac, intoxicated and high, firing a gun recklessly (36:02–37:34).
• The shooter’s background as a felon, previous calls to police, failure of authorities to intervene, and his admission (“I usually can’t even squeeze the damn trigger. But this time, it just barely went off”) (37:53).
• Jess notes the complete randomness:

  "They said it was a one in infinity that he made that shot. You know, if he tried to make the shot, he wouldn't have made the shot." — Jess (43:09)

8. Language of Accountability: Accident vs. Responsibility

• A significant discussion centers on rejecting the term “accident” in cases where reckless choices are made:

  "When you fire a gun recklessly, you should expect to hurt someone or kill someone. And in that sense, it's not accidental at all." — Patia Eaton (42:31) "We have to be careful with using that as, like, 'oh, well they were drunk, it was an accident.' Maybe so, but you chose those actions, and those actions took a life, so you are responsible for that." — Jess (44:01)

9. Criminal Justice Process and Emotional Distance

• The shooter pleads guilty via a deal; Jess never directs hatred at him but establishes an emotional boundary, emphasizing complexity over vengeance (41:42–44:57).

10. Aftershocks and Support

• Jess credits her family and friends for their steadfast support, moving in with her parents, and bonding with Jax (45:14).
• Jax’s resemblance and inherited mannerisms from his father bring Jess both joy and bittersweet reminders (46:00).

11. Finding Love and Rebuilding Life

• Jess remarries a man, Don, who honors Justin’s memory and integrates into the family’s traditions (46:07).
• The couple’s struggle with infertility, miscarriage, and eventual joy in the birth of a daughter via IVF highlight Jess’s resilience and openness (47:51).

12. Transformation and Advocacy

• Jess discusses the duality of her life “before” and “after,” profound shifts in faith, and how her own loss fuels her commitment to helping others as a therapist and author (47:55).

  "I know it's weird to say, like, my passion is grief. That sounds really strange, but it is." — Jess (49:20)

• She seeks to support others through life's darkest moments—even as she clarifies, "I haven't been through every experience, but I know for some of us, losing our person... is one of the darkest moments we'll ever live through." (50:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We had one of those relationships that, I don't know, people thought we were special and I thought we were special...He was just...so infectious and kind and loving and just amazing." — Jess (09:12)
• "He had literally just stood to his feet and we heard a pop...that was the moment that everything changed." — Jess (22:21)
• "They said it was a one in infinity that he made that shot. You know, if he tried to make the shot, he wouldn't have made the shot." — Jess (43:09)
• "If you fire a gun recklessly, you should expect to hurt someone or kill someone." — Patia Eaton (42:31)
• "I had no control over anything. And that was one thing I could control. It was hard, but I became really committed to nursing. And it was like, I'd say, like, part of the reason why. Like, it saved me from being too depressed or suicidal or whatever." — Jess (39:37)
• "It's weird that my journey into being a mom was my journey into the most detrimental life changing event, even above being a mom, losing the greatest love of my life. And if that doesn't change you, I don't know what will change you." — Jess (47:55)
• "It's such a burden placed on widows and widowers whose children lose their parents before they maybe have memories of them to sort of make those memories maybe later in life by telling them about their parent." — Patia Eaton (53:26)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:30 – Jess introduces herself and her background
• 04:23–09:20 – Early love story with Justin
• 09:36–13:27 – Deciding to start a family; Jax’s birth
• 17:18–22:13 – Newborn days at home; precious family moments
• 22:16–26:33 – The exact moment of the shooting and immediate chaos
• 30:11–36:02 – Aftermath, grief, and Jess’s violent reaction to loss
• 36:02–39:04 – Police investigation; background of the shooter
• 41:42–44:01 – Criminal proceedings, apologies, and Jess’s emotional boundaries
• 45:14–46:07 – Family support; Jax’s resemblance to Justin
• 46:07–47:51 – Remarriage, infertility, and finding hope
• 47:55–50:28 – How loss shaped Jess’s path to becoming a grief counselor
• 51:03–55:24 – Hosts reflect on terminology and the importance of telling these stories

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains an empathetic, conversational tone, balancing journalistic rigor with raw, accessible storytelling. Both hosts and Jess candidly address the pain and trauma, but also moments of humor, hope, and the practical realities of day-to-day survival after loss. The language is clear, direct, and respectful, never sensationalizing or diminishing the gravity of what’s recounted.

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Conclusion

“One in Infinity” is a searing exploration of the costs of negligence and violence, and the unpredictable paths people take through grief. Jess’s honesty, the hosts’ thoughtful conversation, and the focus on language—including the insistence on accountability—underscore the episode’s broader message: the enduring humanity in stories of crime and loss, and the power of telling them.

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For more about Jess’s journey or to connect:

• Find her online as "The Singing Widow."
• Contact the show via Instagram @theknifepodcast.

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Transcript

[Patia Eaton]

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[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

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[Hannah Smith]

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[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

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[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

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The show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it again the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures this story.

[Hannah Smith]

Contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[Patia Eaton]

The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I hear screaming and I hear his aunt say Justin. Oh my God Justin. And I mean just Slow motion foreign.

[Patia Eaton]

Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eaton.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm Hannah Smith. Today we have a story from Jessica Ayers. And Pasha. You actually did this interview solo because I was out of town, but I was blown away when I listened to it. Jessica tells you about how she became a widow at an unusually young age.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Jessica, who goes by Jess, and her husband Justin were building their life together when an unexpected tragedy occurred that took Justin's life. And there was a criminal investigation and court proceedings. And this all happened now, almost 12 years ago. But Jess is still unraveling the ripple effects of what took place that day.

[Hannah Smith]

Let's get into the interview.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Hey, my name is Jessica Ayers, but I go by Jess. And I have an online presence called the Singing Widow. I live in the Florida panhandle. Beautiful white sandy beaches. It's very southern here. I don't know if I have an accent, but I may.

[Patia Eaton]

Maybe a hint.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Some people tell me I do. I don't hear it. I am currently a intern therapist while I will be graduating in May with my master's in mental health counseling. And then I will open my private practice after that.

[Patia Eaton]

Jess is also a singer, thus her blog's title, the Singing Widow. It's a place where she's been able to share her story, a story that starts way back in middle school when Jess met someone who would change the course of her life.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I got really involved in my youth group. For anybody who doesn't know, youth group is like the teenage church group that you get involved in. And that is where I met Justin. So he was this cute. He was older than me. I was in eighth grade. He was in 11th grade. Obviously that age gap is not a big deal when you get older, but it seemed like a bigger age gap at the time.

[Patia Eaton]

At that time, like 11th graders when I was in 8th grade, like, they had beards, you know, like, whoa, whoa.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah. And he was so cute. He had long red hair and he was like a really good looking redhead. I'll just put that out there. Like, big full lips, long red hair. He was a guitar player and he was the funniest person I had ever met in my entire life. So what's funny is even though I, like, I knew he was a good guitar player and he played in the church and like, he was a shredder. Like, you just have to think about it like that. It was his sense of humor that first made me notice him because he said something. He, like, laughed at a joke I said, and he made a joke and that was it. I was like, this is the funniest, cutest guy I've ever seen.

[Patia Eaton]

You guys just had this instant connection.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I was connected to him. But what's funny is he thought I was too young for him at first, which, you know, maybe.

[Patia Eaton]

Green flag.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah. And he was like, I think she's too young. But I flirted with him. And then, yeah, we went on this, like, a choir tour. We used to go around, like, I told you, I was really heavy into church. So we would go and sing at all these churches all over the country. And that was when we fell in love. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so when did you guys start dating?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

We started dating that summer. My mom, because he was a Christian boy at our church, would let me date him. He was driving, but she wouldn't let me ride with him in the car. So she would drive me and, like, let me meet with him. But, like, I don't think he took me on my first, like, day until, I mean, I was in eighth grade. That's really young to be dating. So we fell in love between my. It's so young, but we fell in love the summer, like between my seventh and eighth grade year. And I went back to school that year in eighth grade. And I just. I hated life. I didn't want to be a kid. I grew up way too fast. I was in love. I knew I was going to marry him. And I was 14, like, right?

[Patia Eaton]

It's like at 14. What do we know? Well, maybe more than we realized.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I mean, yeah, and he loved me and I just knew I was going to marry him. And people were like, oh, whatever, this is just teen romance or hormones. And mind you, like, we weren't having sex. I was goody, goody Christian girl. Not doing that until I get married. So, yeah, we were, like, in love, but in. Our hormones were there, but, like, we weren't having sex. Like, we were wholesome teenage couple. We really were.

[Patia Eaton]

When Justin graduated and went off to college, he and Jess continued dating. Their relationship was not the stereotypical breakup and get back together teenage love story. Theirs was steady. It was easy. They wrote letters to each other. And Jess said that she just knew this was the person that she was going to marry. And maybe a lot of first loves feel that way, but Jess and Justin were for real. Looking back now, I have to wonder if maybe something inside of them knew how quickly life could change, that their time together would be cut short.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

And I mean to like, fast forward the story. I was engaged my senior year of high school of High school? Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow. So he proposed while you were a senior in high school? He did.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I did also graduate early, so I graduated like, at Christmas time. I graduated, walked the stage with an engagement ring, and we were married a year and a half later. Got married in 2003. The first couple of years, he was teaching guitar lessons, he was playing in a band. And then finally he needed a singer. And I was like, can I try? He was like, sure. So really that was where our life took off, was like our entire marriage was centered around our music career. And I was like, band manager, booked all the gigs. We were just like this team. He was the guitar player, I was the singer, and we were this team and that was our life. I mean, our life just centered around music and gigging and making it big, you know, that type of thing. We had one of those relationships that, I don't know, people thought we were special and I thought we were special. He was just. I don't even know how to say it. Like, he was the kind of, like, husband and, like, man that, like, people just loved to be around. Like, he was so infectious and kind and loving and just amazing.

[Patia Eaton]

For the next 10 years, Jess and Justin were traveling, playing music together. They were living their dream. It wasn't an easy way to make a living, but they were happy. But in 2013, Jess started feeling a new dream taking shape.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I had a very distinct moment where I was singing at a gig. It was a casino gig, so it was a good gig. I know Facebook's not like a thing now, but like, it was. And I remember scrolling and everybody on my friends group was like, posting their, like, back to school photos of their kids and like, oh, so and so back to school today. And they're like, you know, everybody still does that today. Like, post the back to school photos. And I just felt like this emptiness. I was like, I don't have that and, like, I really want that. Like, it was like, weird. We were living the dream at the time, like, full time musicians. I was looking at it like this crowd and I was like, I just want to be a mom.

[Patia Eaton]

Like, it just hit you. You're like, I need this in my life.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah. We always planned to wait until, like, we were in our 30s and it was just a moment. I was like, okay, I'm ready. I mean, we got right to it. And we did buy a house and then we moved in and I was pregnant maybe two months after we moved into the house.

[Patia Eaton]

This was September of 2013. Jess and Justin had been married just the two of them for a decade. They had all the normal concerns about having a baby, but mostly they were excited.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Justin had one love in life, you know, besides me, and it was music. And I was like, well, how are we going to balance, like this music life with being parents? The atmosphere doesn't really work in well. So, like, we came up this plan. We were still going to be booking gigs and after I had the baby, 4th of July was going to be my first gig back and my mom was going to come with us. And I don't know how we were going to work it all out, but that was probably the biggest fear. Just like financial and like career stuff. We found out around Christmas time we were having a boy, which is what we both wanted. Not like we wouldn't have loved a girl, but we knew that like Justin's last name, he was the last person to be able to carry on his last name. Yeah, it was really like a legacy thing. Like if we have a girl, she'll get married and change her name possibly one day and she won't carry on the last name. So we were really excited to get a boy and finally agreed on a name because people don't realize how hard that is to agree on a name with yourself.

[Patia Eaton]

It can be hard. What name did you pick?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

So we agreed on Jax, J A X. We ended up naming him Jackson, but short for Jax, which is really popular now. But at the time, like, nobody had that name. The day he was born was a long day. It was literally a 22 hour delivery and I had had like a leakage and so I had to get admitted to the hospital because there was like, you know, could be infected or whatever if you don't get yourself in a safe place. They gave me the pitocin, was not progressing. It was, it was rough. I thought we were going to have to do a C section, but finally I got some type of like, medicine to help me sleep. And I literally, over the course of like 30 minutes, like progressed from like a two to a nine. So I got the epidural, pushed for two hours. Not fun. Finally he came out. I had a complication. My placenta would not detach, so it was stuck. So it took them two hours of pushing and then two more hours of pulling the placenta out of me and I lost a lot of blood. It could have been dangerous if I wasn't in the hospital.

[Patia Eaton]

What was it like for Justin in the hospital? Was he nervous, excited, or how was he feeling watching this all happen? I mean, zillions of Births have happened before us and will happen after us, but for each person, it's this unique experience. It's life changing, and it is a very serious medical event. What was it like for him?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah, now you're getting, like, my eyes are getting watery. I have never seen the look on his face. I don't know. I know everybody says it, but, like, he was just grinning from ear to ear. It's kind of funny, but, like. Well, it's not really funny, but when they were, like, trying to pull the placenta out of me, I remember, like, looking over, like, where is Justin? I'm dealing with all of this. And I looked over, and he's holding Jax, and he's just got this smile on his face and, like, oblivious as to what's going on with me. And I was just like, hello, over here. Like, I was your priority for all these years. But you can't blame him. He just became a dad. Like, he was always a good person, but he was just changed in that moment when he became a dad. It was beautiful. We were in the hospital an extra day because of my complications. So we were there for three days the day he was born, and then an additional two days. I was wanting to breastfeed, and it was going okay, and Justin was just trying to do everything he could to be helpful and just be sweet, and he was just so excited. And it was. It was good, but we were just ready to go home.

[Patia Eaton]

It's nice to have the access to, obviously, medical professionals, but breastfeeding resources. But there's nothing like the comfort of your own home after going through something like that.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah. And I had to have, like, 70 something stitches. Like, it was a lot. It was basically to sew me back up. Jax, when he came out, he came out at a weird angle, and he ripped me, like, oh, my gosh.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow. I'm sorry. That is tough.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah. That was why I had to stay longer, too, was for that I was in a lot of pain, new mom, hormones, you know, trying to breastfeed, trying to keep up, no sleep.

[Patia Eaton]

Jess and Justin couldn't wait to get home with their new baby, Jax, and begin making new memories and figuring out life as a family of three.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

It was amazing. And, like, I feel like we always have these, like, pivotal moments.

[Patia Eaton]

Pivotal moments. And moments were all that Jess, Justin, and Jax would have together. Jess and I spoke about these moments in great detail. They're important. They're the moments just before everything changed.

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[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

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Like, we're gonna be good. And his mom actually stayed the night with us to help out because I was, like, really, like, insistent on Justin getting some sleep. I knew I wasn't gonna get sleep anyway because I had to nurse. And I was like, he needs to get some sleep, but, like, I probably need some help. So his mom volunteered to come and stay with us. And I know it's really weird, but, like, we watched Game of Thrones that night. Like, we had missed the last episode. He was like, do you want to watch this episode together? I was like, sure. Like, halfway asleep, you know, holding the baby. And I do remember watching it, and I only bring it up because I remember watching it. It was like this really dark episode. I know that show can get dark anyway, but it was a darker episode. And I just remember watching it and feeling, like, very uncomfortable. And I was just like, I'm not ready for this. Like, I just gave birth and I have this baby in my arms. Like, I don't want to watch this darkness. But we watched it. And then that night. I have anxiety. Who doesn't have anxiety these days? But I have a lot of, like, bad health anxiety. It's been something I've just, like, dealt with for a while. But because of my complications, I was not handling, like, the stitches well. I was really nervous that something was wrong. I was like, they probably didn't get all the placenta out. I'm going to get sepsis. All of these worries were going through my head. And when you go home, like, we wanted to go home, but then we were home, and I was like, well, now nobody can see if I'm okay. So I was nervous about that. I was crying to Justin, and his mom's holding the baby, and we were in the bathroom, and I was like, I just feel like something's wrong. And he was like, well, I know why you feel that way. I was like, why? He was like, well, because you have a child now, and, like, you're worried something's gonna happen to you. And I was like, well, yeah, but something could happen. Like, I was trying to explain, like, but I am not well. He's like, well, I just wanted you to know that, like, I felt nervous the whole time that something was going to happen to me, but now I feel better, and the baby's here, and I know everything's going to be okay. And he really, like, brought me down in the moment and calmed me down, and that was a good moment between us. Day two, home, which is actually day one home, because we weren't home in the day on day one. We basically got home at like 8 o' clock at night and spent the night and then started the next day. And we had to get into our pediatrician. Like, that was number one on the list because I had a specific pediatrician I wanted to see. She was like a natural pediatrician. I read she was supportive of breastfeeding. Doesn't push formula. You know, new mom stuff. You're like, I gotta have the perfect one. So she was going out of town and wasn't going to be able to see us unless we came in that day. And so that day I had to sit on a boppy pillow in the waiting room because I could hardly sit down because of my stitches. And we got to see the doctor and Jax had a blowout in the doctor's office. So Justin had to leave the doctor's office. He was like, no, my baby is not meeting. Because we, of course, we weren't prepared. We didn't have anything to change the baby into. And Justin's like, my son is not meeting his pediatrician naked. So I'm going to go to Walmart and get a onesie. So he goes to Walmart, gets this onesie. And then we met the pediatrician and it was great. Like, we loved her and she was amazing. And then we went home. I think my mom went with us to the pediatrician and we had said goodbye to his mom that morning. And then my mom went with us to pediatrician. And then we got back and we're like. Had a couple of hours alone to just spend together. And it was so special. Justin was spoiled when he was a kid. Like, his mom did everything for him. So he wasn't like the kind of guy to like, just start doing laundry. I've never seen him do so much laundry in my life. He was like, washing all the baby's clothes.

[Patia Eaton]

He's like, it's a rite of passage when you bring a baby home.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah, it's our first full day home. And we had plans that night for family to come meet the baby. So he had some family from out of town. His aunt and his cousin were there on his dad's side. His parents were divorced, so it was like his dad's side of the family that was coming over. And then my family and his aunt and cousin came over. I don't remember what time it was, and started hanging out with us before the family was going to get there. So I want to say, like, maybe three o' clock in the afternoon or something like that. So I was just spending the day trying to catch up on sleep and nursing and, you know, kind of hanging out with people. And he was, like, socializing and holding the baby, and they were, you know, passing the baby around. So his aunt and cousin are there, and then his stepmom comes over, and, you know, I don't know what time this was, but they were gonna pick up food. And we were just hanging out on the couch, and I was just in such a daze. So I had just taken a nap. And then I got up and I came out to, like, see what's going on. And they were all chatting and they were talking about going to get the food for everybody that was coming over, which would be there pretty soon, I don't know, like, 20 minutes from then. So we're literally sitting there having a conversation about whatever they're talking about. And his aunt looks at her watch and she's like, oh, crap, I gotta go pick up the food. So she stands up and I'm sitting on the couch, and so she's like, across from me, and his cousin is holding Jack's parallel to me in a rocking chair. And she stands up, she says, I gotta go get the food. And Justin says, I'll go with you so you don't have to do everything by yourself. She's like, no, no, no, it's okay. And he's like, no, no, I want to go. When he stands up, he says, no, it's okay. And literally that was the moment that everything changed. He had literally just stood to his feet and we heard a pop. Like, I don't know how really else to explain it. Then for all of us, it sounded like it was the glass that we heard. So we heard, like, a popping glass sound. And people that haven't been in a chaotic, traumatic situation, it's so hard to explain that when things start happening, there's so much confusion that you're just trying to almost figure out what's going on. And, you know, it all happened so quickly. And I immediately looked over to my left where his cousin was holding my child. And I looked over like, what was that? Is he okay? And she said, yeah, yeah, yeah, the baby's fine. You know, she's holding the baby. And then my attention was over here. And then I hear out of this ear, I hear screaming. And I hear his aunt say, justin. Oh, my God, Justin. And I mean, just slow motion, right? It's like, I don't know if Anybody's ever had one of those dreams where you're trying to run in the dream and you cannot, like, your feet feel like they're concreted to the ground. And that was how I felt. I felt like I was trying to move, move, but I couldn't move. Like, it was like, what's happening? I fell on the ground because I said. They said, get down. So I don't know even at what point we realized it was a gunshot, but we thought we were. Like, it was a drive by shooting or something. Like, I didn't live in a bad neighborhood, but we thought we were under fire. So we're crawling on the ground on our stomachs. Next thing I know, actually, I wasn't on the ground yet. I got shoved into the bedroom. Somebody shoved me into the bedroom. Get over here. And I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing? Like, And I, like, I need to see Justin. And they're like, no, no, no, no, you don't need to see Justin. And I'm like, yes, I need to see Justin. And I'm, like, fighting as hard as I can. Well, this is where, like, the slow motion happened. And so I fought myself away and start crawling on my stomach over to his body.

[Patia Eaton]

And when did you realize that Justin had been shot?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

It took a minute. Like, I don't know. I mean, it literally did not process in my brain until, I don't know, 30 minutes later of what really happened when the cops were there and everything. But, I mean, I just kept saying, what happened? What happened? What happened? Like, what happened, what happened, what happened? Like, just kind of repeating that over and over again, like, what's going on? What's going on? And nobody really knew what was going on. You have to keep in mind, too, I was very medically, like, vulnerable. I wasn't supposed to be, like, doing a lot physically. And I just. I was violent. Like, you have to think about, like, me violently breaking away from my family members. Like, get the f off of me. I'm going over to my husband. So I crawled over to him. They finally let me and obviously didn't know what I was doing for a pulse. But, like, I'm one of those people, too, that, like, I'm afraid to look, but I want to look. And I just remember, like, crawling and trying to look, but, like, being afraid. So it's not like I ran over and started shaking his body because I didn't have the courage to do that. I only had the courage to, like, climb as far as I could see to where I was next to him but not like on top of him. And I saw his lips, I could see his face and his lips were like white, like no life in them. That was all I needed to see. Somebody grabbed me and pulled me back into the bedroom at that point.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

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[Patia Eaton]

Just three short days after the birth of their son, Justin had died in the living room of the home he'd planned to raise his family in. It didn't make any sense. Justin had been shot in the head. But why? And by who? Local police were arriving at a crime scene at the same time that unknowing family members were arriving to meet the baby. Jess said that she was so distraught, her father had to physically restrain her.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

What's going on? Is my husband dead? Like, I just had a child. Like, what? And so my dad had to. I was so strong, he had to pin me down on the bed and get on top of me and, like, restrain my wrists and put his knees on my legs because he said I was running into the wall, that I was. I don't remember this. He said I was just running full fledged into the wall, trying to get out of the room, and nobody would let me out, and I was just losing my mind.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, there aren't words for what you experienced that day. So to make sure that I have the timeline of events correct, you're all sitting there. Your aunt's gonna go get food. Justin insists on helping. Justin is shot. Chaos. Your cousin is holding Jax, and you are pushed into another room.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah, our master bedroom.

[Patia Eaton]

By his aunt.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yes, actually, by this point, his aunt had the baby, and it was his cousin that pushed me into the room.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay. And so you're pushed into the room, but you break free, you crawl over so that you can see Justin. On some level, you're understanding that he has died. And you know, who could ever fully process that in a moment so chaotic? But while all of this is happening, you guys are wondering if someone's shooting at you. Everyone's on the ground, afraid. Your dad comes in the back door, is filled in on what's happening, and then pulls you back into the room and restrains you. Meanwhile, a cop is arriving and other family members are also arriving.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yes, the cop got there pretty quick, and an ambulance was called, and I calmed down at some point. I don't know what happened, but, like, they eventually did sedate me. They gave me something to calm me down, some type of shot of something, but not yet. So I eventually kind of like, I don't know what happened, but I think Jax was crying, and my mother instinct kicked in, and I was like, I need to feed my child. So I'm, like, sitting back there by myself in the bedroom nursing my son while everybody else is in the living room. And I'm just, like, shaking my head like I didn't know what was happening. And I heard someone outside of the door say, he has a pulse. Like I said, I didn't know how to check for a pulse, so I couldn't tell Them, they were wrong. And so in that moment, when I heard he had a pulse, I had this glimmer of, like, hope. And I thought, like, okay, maybe I'm wrong, maybe everything's okay. And all of these scenarios started playing out in my head as I'm nursing. And I thought, well, maybe he's going to be paralyzed. We'll find our way. Maybe he won't ever be able to play guitar again, but we'll have each other, like, for better or for worse. Like, I just started like, playing out all these scenarios of, like, him living but being disabled and whatever. Like, he's just going to be alive. It's going to be okay. And then the door opens and a police officer comes in and he had this look on his face. And I just knew it. I just knew by the look on his face. And so they were like, jessica, will you, you know, hand me the baby? You know, because I'm. I'm not gonna, like, cry talking about, but I'm holding my three day old baby. And so I handed him over and I just knew it. He said, your husband is deceased. That was the words he said. God, like, I almost feel like I would have rather heard him say, your husband is dead. I don't know why, like the word deceit, deceased.

[Patia Eaton]

Like, maybe it sounds so like, matter of fact or official maybe.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah, it does. Because it's like the medical term.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, the medical term.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah. And like, I don't ever use that word, but I know what it means. And I forgot to mention too, there's so much that was happening, but before the officer came in, I heard this loud, gasping, screaming, bellowing, adult male crying out in the other room. And Justin's stepmother was in the room with me at that point. And I said, what is that? Like, I thought it was Justin coming to. That was like another glimmer of hope I had. I was like, what is that? And his stepmom said, that's just Steve, honey. Which. That was his dad. Oh my God. So I literally heard his dad come into the room with his son there dead. But after the officer told me he's deceased, I lost my mind, understandably so. But I was just fighting, you know, no, this isn't real. I just. I didn't want to be alive anymore. Everything was going through my head. Now I have this baby and my husband's dead. I was just like, what the fuck? Like that was going through my mind. And that was when they had to sedate me because I was so upset. And my dad and my mom and my mom got there at that point, had to get on top of me to hold me down. The adrenaline was so high.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, I imagine you were also at risk of tearing the stitches and causing yourself injury in that way.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Miraculously, I did not harm myself at all. I have no idea how that worked out in my favor.

[Patia Eaton]

Jess and Justin lived on a quiet cul de sac. It felt safe, and it should have been. While Jess was inside the house, her mind racing, her body filled with adrenaline, police were outside searching for the source of the gunshot. And 200 yards behind the house they.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Found was, like, this nice little cul de sac we lived on. There was all of these trees, and then behind all these trees was this, like, little house that wasn't a part of this cul de sac that was built, and that's where this man was staying. And he had fired a 9 millimeter gun. And they found him standing on his front porch because they knew where the bullet came in. So they immediately were on the scene trying to figure out, okay, well, where did it come from? And they found him, and he was standing out there, and he tried to run away because he knew. And they caught him and beat him up.

[Patia Eaton]

What did he know?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

He knew he had shot a gun, and it had obviously hurt somebody. I don't know that he knew at that point it had killed somebody, but he knew that there was cops there. He had fired a gun. He was also, like, he was a drug addict. He tested positive for meth. He was drunk. His blood alcohol level was really high. We lived in a nice neighborhood. Like, it was a nice little cul de sac. It was just this weird house that was back there. I actually knew he was there because I had seen him before, but I didn't think anything of him. I just thought, like, he's just some old man that rides his bike.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And also, you know, someone suffering from addiction doesn't necessarily mean they're dangerous.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

No.

[Patia Eaton]

And so he understood that he had fired a gun and that someone had likely been shot because there's police, there's an ambulance. Did he say why he had fired a gun?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

He did say he told the cops. I'm gonna kind of quote him a little bit. I'm pretty sure the quote was, I usually can't even squeeze the damn trigger. But this time, it just barely went off. Basically was saying it was an accident, which is a bunch of bullshit. The cops have been called over to his house before. There was police reports. We found out of the cops being called over there Keep in mind, we hadn't lived there very long. It had been not even like eight months since we had lived there. I remember I had texted Justin one time because we had a little Jack Russell terrier and he had, like, thunder anxiety. So anytime, like, loud noises would happen, our little Jack Russell would, like, get all nervous and start shaking. And I remember texting Justin when I was pregnant, like, there's that noise again. And it was a loud, like, popping noise, like. And I know now it was a gun. And he was like, target practice shooting or whatever.

[Patia Eaton]

So incredibly dangerous, so reckless.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

But the cops had been called over there. They did nothing. And he just told them, oh, it's just fireworks. They did not even do an investigation into why he was in that house. And he should have been arrested and not been there anyway because it was illegal and he was a felon.

[Patia Eaton]

And I want to get into, like, what we know about him now, but at the time you're at home, but they've offered you some sedation, and Justin, his body is taken away. You know, having a new baby that you're nursing, how does one spend the next however long? Because a nursing baby requires constant attention, you know, and you can't just hand them over and go to the hospital or wherever he was taken.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I will say, like, my commitment to nursing was really strong before I had my child. Like, I was one of those people that, like, knew I wanted to nurse. Like, it was important to me. And then after Justin died, it was hard. The already hard part of nursing, in addition to feeling like I didn't want to exist, but it eventually became my focus because it was something I could focus on besides just being sad. So eventually, like, that became my first purpose, I would say, was nursing my child because I felt like my whole life had been taken away from me. I had no control over anything. And that was one thing I could control. It was hard, but I became really committed to nursing. And it was like, I'd say, like, part of the reason why. Like, it saved me from being too depressed or suicidal or whatever. We learned that he was illegally squatting in the house. He was a convicted felon. I don't even know what he was convicted of. He illegally had the gun. Everything he was doing was illegal. He was an alcoholic. He was a drug addict. He had constantly regulared the liquor store up the road, and basically he would just ride his bike there and get loaded every day. He was not, you know, an active participant in society or anything. He first pled not guilty. And apparently they forgot to read him his rights. So he had some kind of legal loopholes that we were really concerned about. Instead of going to trial, we ended up agreeing to a plea deal, and he pled guilty. So we didn't end up having to go to trial or anything. You know, he will be getting out if he's still alive in, like, I don't know, the next six years or so. I used to get these, like, calls anytime they would have to transfer him. That way I would know if he was being moved. And then I was just like, why am I doing this to myself? Like, it's just a reminder. So I think I opted out of the calls, But I think when he gets out, they have to notify me.

[Patia Eaton]

Did he speak at all at his sentencing?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I think all he said was, I'm sorry, but that was all. But I spoke.

[Patia Eaton]

Did it mean anything to you to hear him apologize?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

No, not really. I really had, like, an emotional barrier up with him. I just couldn't really let myself get too emotionally involved when it came to him. It wasn't like I just had this hatred for him. But I also just, like. For a long time, I couldn't even say his name. I couldn't even, like, accept that this person had killed my husband. I almost feel like it would have been easier if he had said, like, I wanted to kill him, or it was, like, 100% on purpose, or. I'm not gonna say it would've been easier, but it would have been easier to, like, feel all the stuff against him, you know?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I mean, just hearing you talk about the fact that he happened to be high and messing with this gun and standing in the direction of your home, and there's a bunch of trees between your houses, and the bullet had to travel all that way and go through all of these different sort of barriers. And it's just such a senseless one in a billion accident. Although I don't want to say one in a billion, because it's like, if you fire a gun recklessly, you should expect to hurt someone or kill someone. And in that sense, it's not accidental at all.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah, they said it was a one in affinity that he made that shot. You know, if he tried to make the shot, he wouldn't have made the shot.

[Patia Eaton]

Well, I wanted to say, you know, I was listening to a podcast the other day. It was a father who lost both children in a crash caused by a drunk driver. And the person who was interviewing him referred to this as an accident. And he said, no, we don't do that. It was a crash because she got behind the wheel drunk and she caused this crash. And when I think about this sort of, quote, accidental shooting, there's layers to people suffering from addiction. But if you fire a gun recklessly, I think you should do it with the full expectation that someone is hurt or killed by that because it is just so dangerous.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah, there's definitely fault in that action. And there's also fault in all of the choices that he made to lead up to that moment. I think that, like, we have to be careful with, like. I'm not trying to say, like, people can get an excuse if they're on drugs or whatever, but, like, we have to be careful with using that as, like, oh, well, they were drunk, it was an accident. It's like, maybe so. But you chose those actions, and those actions took a life, so you are responsible for that. I just had to kind of opt out of the hatred. I'll say. I never, like, opted into, like, the hatred. Do I ever want to see that man again in my entire life? No. Do I spend nights thinking about him? No. But I know he's the one responsible. It's just such a complicated thing. I don't know.

[Patia Eaton]

As she reflects on the unimaginable loss of Justin, her husband, her high school sweetheart, Jess still remembers the way her family cared for her and for Jax. Even in the midst of their own grief, they showed up and made sure she knew she wasn't alone.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

I just had the best support system ever. I feel almost like, I'm not even saying ashamed to say it because, like, I know some people don't have the support that I had. So it's amazing. My mom, you know, both my parents, my brother, my mother in law, all of my friends, you know, everybody stepped up. I slept with my mom in the bed. I moved in with them. Yeah. And it was all hands on deck, you know, everybody was there to support and to love.

[Patia Eaton]

That's really special because, you know, they were all grieving.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

In their own ways, too. And, you know, I've looked at pictures online. Jax looks just like Justin.

[Hannah Smith]

Right?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

Yeah. I will say, like, he also. It's weird, but he has Justin's mannerisms.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

And it's so strange when he has his dad's mannerisms and he doesn't know his dad at all. I love it in those moments when I'm like, oh, my God, you're acting just like your dad did. Like, oh, my God, look at his foot. Like he has his dad's foot. Like, it's weird. I am so blessed. I found. I don't know how I got so blessed to find another amazing husband. And dawn is so different than Justin, but he's so alike in all the good ways. And I don't know, it was such a tough but beautiful, like, experience to fall in love again. He is the kind of man that he just honors my relationship with Justin still, he respects it. It's about to be Justin's birthday, and we do a poker game for Justin's birthday every year. And Don is just all part of the experience. And he has a great relationship with Justin's parents. I will say the hardest part about watching Jax is the absence of knowing Justin. And he doesn't know what it's like to even miss Justin. It's hard to watch that because it's just like Justin loved him so much, you know? Me and dawn got married in 2018, and then we started trying to have a baby. We struggled with some infertility. I'm sure all of the trauma that happened to my body was to thank for that. We ended up having a miscarriage after trying for two years. That was really devastating. And then we had to do ivf and we were not good responders to ivf. Like, not good. Like, I didn't have good numbers. But we ended up with one embryo, and she's our daughter. She's a miracle.

[Patia Eaton]

How has this experience changed you?

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

There's like a before and there's an after. I've heard of other, like, moms saying, like, well, there's before you're a mom and then there's after you're a mom. Right. It's really hard for me to know which before and which after I'm living in because there's before when I wasn't a mom and then there's after when I was a mom, but then my after also was a widow. It's weird that my journey into being a mom was my journey into the most detrimental life changing event, even above being a mom, losing the greatest love of my life. And if that doesn't change you, I don't know what will change you. It changed everything about me. The things that didn't change was, like, my personality. For a while my personality was different, but I started to see glimpses of my personality as I started to come back to life. And yeah, it really has changed, really my whole perception on life. I was Christian, as you we talked about. I did not go to church or really pray for almost 11 years. And now I've started praying Again, I've started going back to church, and that's been really good, but it took me a while to get there. Like, it just rocked my entire belief system. It's really weird when I show Jack's pictures of, like, me when I was with Justin or whatever and even my daughter now, because I'm like, this was a completely different life I was living, and it feels like I've lived two different lives. It really does feel that way. I will graduate in May with my master's in mental health counseling, and then I will open my own private practice. I've been talking to, like, widows and grievers over social media, and I also wrote a book about grieving, widowhood and that type of thing, Grieving during widowhood. And so, yeah, I am ready to, like, finally live out my new passion, which, obviously, the loss impacted me so much that it became my passion. And I know it's weird to say, like, my passion is grief. That sounds really strange, but it is. And I've already been taking clients and working with clients that have experienced loss, and I just feel this connection. I hope that, you know, through my experience and through all of my learning and everything, that I'll be able to just be some type of aid in their darkest moments. You know, I'm not going to say there really is nothing darker than grief, because I haven't been through every experience that everyone else has been through. But I know for some of us, losing our person, losing the most essential person in our lives, is one of the darkest moments we'll ever live through. So just to help them in any way possible, and that's what I'm going to do. And I'm excited. I'm not excited. It's weird to be excited about, like, being in a hard industry.

[Patia Eaton]

I think it's a beautiful mission, and I'm sure that people who are living out something that difficult appreciate the true understanding of what they're going through.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. What an episode.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

I want to say there was a conversation that you and Jess had that I really loved and appreciated. The way that you talked about the word accident in relation to this. That was really important and such a great point that sometimes that word gets thrown around, especially because I think it's pretty clear this man did not intend to kill Justin. But calling it an accident really diminishes the fact that someone made a choice and that choice had deadly effects.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. You know, we read so much about crimes that are taking place, and I had mentioned a podcast interview I listened to where that was Discussed a little bit with a drunk driving crash that caused two fatalities. And then also, you know, in my hometown, I think it was two years ago now, there was another crash where a young man was driving well over a hundred miles an hour, blew right through an intersection right by where my parents live in Washington state. And, I mean, I think he killed at least four people.

[Hannah Smith]

Terrible.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And many of whom were children. And someone in one of the comment sections, I recalled saying the same thing. And I think what that person said is, you know, calling this an accident is like firing a gun into a crowd and calling it an accident. And I thought, yeah, that's so right. And then I had listened to this other podcast about grief where that was also up for discussion. And I thought it, you know, was important to note here, too.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Because when you fire a gun in a neighborhood, you have to expect that that's, you know, very dangerous thing to do.

[Patia Eaton]

Right. Yeah. They're lethal weapons, and you have to take it seriously if you're handling one.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so the nature of our work, sometimes we're having really difficult conversations with people about loss or really traumatic circumstances. And this one was one where I found myself, I think, just so emotional after the interview. And, you know, I held it together during the interview. Cause we never want to, you know, take away from someone telling us their story by, you know, making them feel like they have to sympathize with us totally. But, yeah, it was so sad. And I think for me, you know, it was a lighter part of the interview where Jess was able to talk about her life now and having remarried someone that's so understanding of Justin's place in her life.

[Hannah Smith]

I loved that.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, me too. I just thought that was so special and so nice to hear. And I think it was the moment when she spoke about how their son Jax doesn't know what it's like to miss him. Oh, my gosh. Even talking about it now, I'm like, wow, that is just such a burden placed on widows and widowers whose children lose their parents before they maybe have memories of them to sort of make those memories maybe later in life by telling them about their parent. And, yeah, I just thought it was such a powerful interview. And, you know, the fact that Jess is on her way to being a mental health counselor, I just. I think she's gonna make such a great impact.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it was really a powerful interview. And you're right. It's like, we do do a lot of interviews that are sometimes hard to listen to in the moment. And our job is to be there and hold space. Also be thinking about these from a journalistic perspective. It's both of those things. And it's not really a space where it's appropriate for us to get emotional, but we're also human beings, and these stories sometimes really hit you. That's a tricky balance to strike.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, totally. And that's something people ask me. I don't know if people ask you in your life, but they're like, how do you do that? And, you know, when I step back and think about it, how do you do that? Meaning, like, how do you have these difficult conversations so present in your mind all of the time?

[Hannah Smith]

Does it depress you? Does it impact you?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And I think the answer is, like, sometimes yes. Like, I'll just need to go for a walk or kind of will talk about, like, okay, well, why are we doing this? Why are we telling this story? And, you know, I think in the case of her story, you know, Justin's life mattered, and what happened to him shouldn't have happened to him. This person shouldn't have had a gun. And, you know, that's sort of the why. And I think that that's what I always come back to, is that people should feel that what they've gone through matters.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Well, great interview. I really am glad that this interview happened and that it's on our show. I think people will find it really meaningful.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Jess for sharing her story, and we'll see you next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram, henifepodcast or blueskyenifepodcast.

[Hannah Smith]

This has been an exactly right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.

[Patia Eaton]

And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfield Fogel.

[Patia Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Patia Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, now streaming exclusively on Prime Video. Critics called season one one of the year's best shows with over 40 million viewers worldwide. And now the story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins, and based upon characters created by James Patterson. Cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psychologist, fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer the fanboy Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Kross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Kross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same. Kross Watch Season two of Cross, now streaming only on Prime Video.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

At cvs, it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night. And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Janice Torres here, and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

[Jessica Ayers (Jess)]

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is the be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.