Queen of the Con: Johnathan Walton’s Story

Summary

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The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

Episode: Queen of the Con: Johnathan Walton’s Story
Date: September 4, 2025
Hosts: Hannah Smith & Paisha Eaton
Guest: Jonathan Walton

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the story of Jonathan Walton, TV producer, podcast host (Queen of the Con), and author of Anatomy of a Con Artist. Through a candid, first-person interview, Jonathan shares how he was conned by a woman he thought was a best friend, the red flags he missed, and how he turned his experience into a resource for other victims. The conversation also explores broader lessons about the psychology of trust, the enduring shame scam victims experience, and tangible advice for both recognizing cons and seeking justice.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mechanics of a Con: Jonathan’s Story

• Meeting the Con Artist
  • Jonathan met "Mare Smith" in his LA apartment complex (2013) after organizing efforts to regain building pool access ([03:06]).
  • Mare presents herself as a wealthy Irish heiress and offers help—a classic con artist opening ([09:34]).
• Building Trust & Bonding
  • Mare rapidly becomes close to Jonathan and his husband, offering lavish dinners, vacations, and personal secrets ([08:29], [12:25]).
  • She creates a sense of family and mutual struggle, even mimicking Jonathan’s experience of family estrangement ([21:17]).
• Emotional Manipulation & Overwhelm
  • Uses TMI (Too Much Information) as a tactic, causing reciprocal vulnerability ([05:31]).
  • Leverages high emotional stakes: fake illnesses, family drama, legal troubles ([20:34], [21:17]).
• The Ask: Financial Exploitation
  • Four years in, Mare requests large sums of money, including $50,000 for supposed legal fees ([30:02]).
  • Jonathan helps without suspicion, noting how con artists often repay small amounts early (“bequetting”) to reinforce trust ([27:21]).

2. Recognizing Red Flags: Themes from Anatomy of a Con Artist

• Jonathan’s 14 Red Flags
  • Key examples: “Offering to Help”, “Too Kind Too Quick”, “Drama, Drama, Drama”, “Technology as Proof”, “TMI”, “Stories from Faraway Places” ([04:01], [54:24]).
  • The book emphasizes that multiple flags (3–5+) in a new relationship should trigger critical scrutiny ([69:31]).
• Red Flags in Action
  • Mare used technology—emails and texts from fake relatives—to fabricate her story ([21:17], [30:02]).
  • Scarcity tactics and dramatic deadlines were also used to pressure Jonathan ([54:24]).

3. Victim Psychology & Overcoming Shame

• Anyone Can Be Conned
  • The myth that victims are unintelligent is false; empathy is a key vulnerability ([04:46], [81:32]).
  • “Con artists don’t outsmart you. Con artists out-feel you.” – Jonathan ([05:31]).
• Shame Prevents Reporting
  • 90%+ of victims never report scams, many due to embarrassment and self-doubt ([05:31], [16:40]).
• Victim Delusion and Self-Deception
  • Many victims rationalize their experience to avoid the pain of accepting the truth ([17:34]).

4. Aftermath, Justice & Helping Others

• Discovery & Confrontation
  • Jonathan uncovers the truth when he independently checks jail records ([30:02]).
  • Police are initially dismissive; Jonathan persistently documents his case and refers other victims ([38:52]).
• How to Get Justice
  • Advice: Prepare your case like a “pitch”—bring evidence, affidavits, and clarity for police ([44:41]).
  • Law enforcement is overwhelmed; persistence and well-prepared documentation can make the difference ([41:23]).
• Turning Pain into Purpose
  • Jonathan’s “obsession” becomes a mission: hunting con artists, advising victims, and authoring a resource ([47:19], [58:59]).
  • Blog and book have directly saved others, as in the case of Bob, who avoided losing his home ([58:59]).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

“Con artists don’t outsmart you. Con artists out-feel you. They figure out what your buttons are, and they use your emotions.”
— Jonathan Walton ([05:31])

“The bigger the lie, the more believable. And you would think the opposite would be true.”
— Jonathan Walton ([21:17])

“Some people golf on the weekends. I hunt con artists.”
— Jonathan Walton ([75:17])

“Once you're making decisions on that love, you're not thinking straight. You're going to get conned.”
— Jonathan Walton ([01:51], [67:53])

“If someone is using technology, digital screens to back up what they're saying, be suspicious. Regular people don't do that.”
— Jonathan Walton ([30:02])

“How has there not been a book about these red flags before? I gotta be the guy to write it.”
— Jonathan Walton ([65:38])

“Drama, drama, drama. ... If you're busy being scared, you're not thinking with your intellect, you know you're going to get scammed. This is how they manipulate you.”
— Jonathan Walton ([53:18])

“Who's susceptible to being conned? Humans.”
— Hannah Smith ([77:54])

On Anger and Recovery

“I was in a space where I immediately understood murder. I understood it. I wanted to kill her. ... I enjoyed it. It brought me relief. ... when I picked her up, I was enraged. ... But in the months after realizing what happened, I would have these detailed murder fantasies ... and they eventually went away.”
— Jonathan Walton ([35:55])

“If someone scams you, don’t kill them as much as you want to. Believe me, I know. I know the feeling.”
— Jonathan Walton ([37:46])

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Key Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:51 | Jonathan: “The con artist's job is to get you to love them…”
• 05:31 | Jonathan on shame & the TMI red flag
• 09:34 | Describing the initial neighborhood meeting with Mare
• 12:25 | The power of creating intimacy and trust
• 21:17 | Red flags: drama, technology manipulation, matching vulnerabilities
• 30:02 | Realization: uncovering the truth through jail records
• 35:55 | Processing rage and vengeance fantasies
• 38:52 | Seeking justice, initial police indifference, and persistence
• 44:41 | How to present your case to police
• 54:24 | Most common red flags explained
• 58:59 | Bob’s story—being saved by Jonathan’s blog
• 65:38 | Jonathan’s unique resilience and ability to speak out as a victim
• 75:17 | “Some people golf on the weekends. I hunt con artists.”
• 81:32 | Hosts reflect: “Who can be conned? Humans.”

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Flow & Tone

The conversation is frank, vulnerable, and solution-oriented. Jonathan’s humility, candor (including discussion of shame, anger, and murder fantasies), and sense of mission illuminate the reality of being conned—both the excruciating emotional journey and the practical steps necessary for survivors to reclaim agency. The hosts match his tone, blending empathy, realism, and subtle humor.

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Practical Tips & Takeaways

• No one is immune to being conned—connection and empathy are universal vulnerabilities.
• Watch for overlapping red flags in relationships:
  • Too eager to help or share
  • Lavish early generosity (money/attention)
  • High drama or urgent crises
  • Use of unverifiable stories or “proof” via technology
  • Attempts to isolate you from others
  • Recurring requests with high pressure
• If targeted, gather evidence, prepare your story, follow up with police persistently, and seek support.
• Jonathan’s book, "Anatomy of a Con Artist," is recommended as both a preventative resource and an informative, digestible handbook for victims and their loved ones.

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Memorable Closing

“Really, it’s like, who can be conned? Humans. The people that are susceptible to being conned are people that are human.”
— Hannah Smith ([77:54])

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Recommended Resource:
Anatomy of a Con Artist by Jonathan Walton
(“If you think that there's someone in your life who's being scammed, it's a great holiday present for them ... might soften the blow rather than just, ‘Hey, you’re being taken for a ride.’” — Hannah Smith [81:55])

For More:
Follow The Knife on Instagram: @theknifepodcast
Contact: [e-mail]

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Transcript

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[Taisha Eaton]

This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[Jonathan Walton]

The con artist's job is is to get you to love them or love the thing they're creating. Because once you're making decisions on that love, you're not thinking straight. You're going to get conned.

[Taisha Eaton]

Welcome to the Knife. I'm Pasha Eaton.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm Hannah Smith. So we had a conversation this week that was so compelling, we decided to release it without as much editing as we normally do. It's with Jonathan Walton, who talks about con artists in a way that you might not have heard before. I certainly hadn't. His perspective is personal. He was conned by someone he considered to be a best friend, practically family.

[Taisha Eaton]

You may know Jonathan's story from his podcast, Queen of the Con. In his interview with us, he shares both his own experience and the stories of other con artists that he's now investigated for context, in 2019. In 2013, Jonathan met a woman in his apartment complex who introduced herself as Mare Smith. Their building had just lost access to its beloved pool. And when Jonathan organized his neighbors to fight the decision, Mayor claimed she could help. After all, she was dating a powerful LA mayor.

[Hannah Smith]

She soon became inseparable from both Jonathan and his husband. She weaved herself into their lives for four years before ever asking for money. And by the time she revealed her true nature, her lies were so, so elaborate. And their bond was so strong that it was really hard for Jonathan to see the truth at first. But once he did, he fought back. His case has made international headlines and ultimately inspired his book, which we talk about in this episode, Anatomy of a Con Artist.

[Taisha Eaton]

One note toward the end of this interview is Jonathan quotes someone using a derogatory term for gay people. We chose to leave it in because it was integral to his story, but we wanted to flag that for listeners.

[Hannah Smith]

Let's get into the interview. Jonathan, welcome to the Knife podcast. We're so happy to have you.

[Jonathan Walton]

Thank you so much for inviting me on. I'm excited to talk to you both.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah, we're so happy about it.

[Hannah Smith]

So we've been lucky to get copies of your book, Anatomy of a Con Artist, and we can't say enough good things about it. We're gonna talk about this book. You wrote it. A lot of it is how you were personally conned and sort of the wealth of knowledge that you've accumulated since that time. You also weave in stories of other con artists, and I really love the way you structure the book. You begin by outlining 14 red flags that are common with con artists. And then you use those, you weave them throughout the book, and you give readers concrete examples of how those red flags play out. And we're going to talk more about those red flags because I love that you do that. It's so clear and concise.

[Jonathan Walton]

Thank you.

[Hannah Smith]

The backbone of the book is your personal story about being conned, and we want to talk about that as well. But before we get into any of this, we just have to say patience and I are aligned on this. Your perspective on con artists and victims is so refreshing to us because it's so in line with what we've always been saying on our podcast as well, that anyone can be conned. And what we've encountered over the years, speaking with victims of scams is that there is this shame factor where they feel really bad about the fact that this has happened to them. And you talk about that in the book. So I'm hoping that we can just start off with you sort of addressing that and talking about your perspective on that.

[Jonathan Walton]

Well, thank you. It pleases me to no end that you guys get what I'm trying to put in the book and you understand what I'm about. Yeah, the structure was tricky. It was a lot of back and forth with my editor, you know, because we're trying to make it as compelling and as interesting as possible and also make it like a handbook for people. And you're right. A lot of people think they can never get conned. I used to think that, too, you know, and that'll set you up to get conned. Because what people don't realize is my con artist, the Irish heiress, aka Mare Smith, aka she had 20 other aliases. She was not an anomaly. There are thousands if not millions of hers in male form and female form running around. And the majority of victims, I would say upwards of 90%, they never report what happened because of the shame. But also because of a red flag I write about in the book. It is red flag number 13, TMI. Too much information because you meet this new person in your life, new boyfriend, new girlfriend, a new coworker, a new neighbor, in my case, and they get close to you real quick. Con artists don't outsmart you. Con artists out feel you. They figure out what your buttons are, and they use your emotions. So a con artist starts revealing their deep, dark secrets. And that does two things. Number one, it makes you think, wow, this person must really trust me. This person must think so highly of me to take me in their confidence and reveal all their secrets. And number two, you think I can reveal my secrets because we're human beings. Someone waves, you're going to wave. Someone says, hi, how are you? You're going to say, good, how are you? We have cues we automatically respond to. Someone starts oversharing tmi, you start doing the same thing. But here's the trick. Con artists are making up their deep, dark secrets. They're not real. They're just fantastical stories. But your deep, dark secrets are real. That is a very powerful way to keep victims quiet. Con artists learn about their deep, dark secrets. Do this trick in my case, and I want to punch myself in the face when I say this out loud. I was helping an Irish heiress get her inheritance. You know, she sucked me in. And the way she did it, looking back, was, you know, evil, maniacal, and brilliant. She was a new neighbor, moved into my building. We had a huge problem in our building with our Swimming pool. It got taken away because of a legal fight with another building. And it was. It's a really nice pool. It's like 20 swimming pools in one. It's like part of the amenities, the reason we moved into this building. And she immediately enters my life offering to help. That is red flag number one. Most con artists get into the victims lives offering to help. Who doesn't? Like a helper? Exactly. Because when someone's helping you, you immediately like or love them, you know, and then they wave a lot of red flag number two, which my con artist did too kind, too quick. She's whining and dining my husband at me at fancy restaurants. She's taken us on vacations to Palm Springs. She seems like she has all this money, you know.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, I wanna slow down a little bit because you're getting into the details that I think are so helpful. And one of the things I loved about your book and also the podcast is that you take us through those steps because when you just started and you said, you know, I was trying to help an Irish heiress get her inheritance back, if that's all you know, I think most people will be like, eye roll. What are we talking about here?

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah, right.

[Hannah Smith]

But the thing is, is you really walk us through how you got to this point four years later where it was like, so believable. And I think that that's so important to understand. And so you mentioned like, okay, she came into your life to help with this swimming pool issue, which was a legal issue. Suddenly you're building, no one could use this beautiful, amazing swimming pool, which everyone loved using. And she kind of sweeps in and says, I'd love to help. Talk to us a little bit about like, what that feeling is of that meeting whenever you, you have that neighborhood meeting in your apartment and you watch her, you're watching her like work the room. Tell us a little bit about that moment and how that felt to you.

[Jonathan Walton]

I mean, I have a, you know, conflicting perspectives now because I remember what I thought when it was happening. And now looking back, I know what the truth was while it's happening. She appears to be this guardian angel, this savior. She's dating a married politician. He was the mayor of an affluent city here in Los Angeles. He sued our building before, she says. She says, but none of that was true. But we don't know that. So she kind of captures the room and there are 30 or 40 residents gathered in my living room. And again, this hurts me to admit, I took it upon myself when we lost the pool I posted flyers everywhere I went and distributed them to 444 units in our apartment building. I took it upon myself. That's who I am. That's who I've always been, you know, and now I can only imagine when she saw that flyer in our lobby, she must have been licking her chops, thinking to herself, ah, this guy's a do gooder. I'm going to get him to do good for me. Because that's exactly what she went about doing. I didn't realize. And none of us do as. As victims or all of us are potential victims. I guarantee you, we are all potential victims. These people are everywhere. No one's talking about them. But I, you know, no one is me. And I'll tell you why. But looking back, that's all the information she needed about me. To know how to get in to my life. And she did. So that evening we have this meeting in the living room that. In my living room that I organized. You know, my husband and I, but I organized. I give him credit, but no, he was just saying, okay, let's do it. And at the end of the meeting, she says, I want to take you and your husband out for dinner to thank you for. For organizing all this. It's amazing. And she took us to this expensive restaurant. The bill was like six, seven hundred dollars. And I tried to pay our share and she wouldn't let me know. No, no. And she starts unpacking her story. She's very wealthy. She moved here from Ireland. She had a weird accent. So everything gelled. When we had dinner at her place one night, she showed us this framed Irish constitution on her wall. She had props. And she said that one of the signatories, something something Clark, was one of her great, great grandfather, the founder of Ireland. You know, she started confiding like, you know, I'm Irish royalty. Whatever you do, don't tell the Irish embassy I'm here. They would be so upset that no one alerted them to my presence. Please. So we're like, oh, no, no, we're not going to tell anyone. You know, she asks us to do something, you know, so none of that was true, but it made me feel. And again, I want to punch myself in the face. It made me feel special that this woman, this wealthy Irish heiress, royalty from Ireland, is trusting me and inviting me into her home. And I'm a part of Irish history now. It's like, stupid, stupid, stupid. But that's how I felt at the time.

[Taisha Eaton]

And that's such a universal desire, is like this human connection and to be made to feel like important or seen or trusted.

[Jonathan Walton]

Trusted.

[Taisha Eaton]

And for her to have taken you guys to this, like, lavish dinner that costs 6, $700, like, that is wealth. To be able to spend that much money on a dinner, I mean, that I've never. And like that. You know, I think that even though in hindsight it's like, oh, how foolish, because of all of these flags that I'm now aware of, it's like if someone spent that kind of money on me at dinner and I offered to pay my share and they refused, I would have every reason to believe what they were telling me. They're wealthy.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah. Yeah. She had all the tricks. Little did I know the money she used for that dinner and many dinners was from credit cards she had stolen in other people's names. She'd taken out credit and she was scamming a bunch of other people. So all the money that she was spending on me on these vacations and dinners and lavish gifts and stuff, looking back now, I realize it's an investment for her. And it worked. It paid off big. Hey, it's Brian Christopher. Ready to chill this summer, you're in luck. I'm hanging out at Champa Casino and you're in for a treat. Chillax. With hundreds of games, daily bonuses, exciting.

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[Jonathan Walton]

While she's whining and dining my husband and me, she's has 20 other scams going at the same time. This is who she is, and these people are everywhere. So it's good. I. I point out the red flags because God knows she waved every single one of them. And I. I had no idea these are a thing. These people are everywhere, but no one's talking about it because, you know, it had to take. It took me. It took me to expose her and stop untold numbers of people from falling for it. And even initially. And this is what angers me, so I'm gonna try not to shout when it all came crashing down for her, and I confronted her, and she denied it. And I recorded the confrontation, thinking, police are gonna want this, not knowing they couldn't give a flying F. She got a lot of people to believe her. She was telling people, and a lot of people believed it, that I am this crazy guy in love with her. Happily married gay man in love with her, and I'm just spurned she didn't feel the same way. And now I'm angry and trying to take my revenge. And a lot of people wouldn't talk to me. They would hang up, they'd block me. It took some convincing, but that's how good she is.

[Taisha Eaton]

Well, it's like, for them to believe you and not her would mean them having to accept that they, too, had been duped.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yes.

[Taisha Eaton]

And many of them probably also been conned out of money or whatever else. And that is such a difficult part of the web that these con artists weave.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah. It's human nature. They use our human nature against us. And I'm glad you brought that point up, because I do forget to bring it up when I'm talking about the book, but it's in the book I've investigated by now in the past eight years, literally hundreds of different con artist cases. And I've talked to hundreds of different victims, and there's a subset of victims like you just described. They cannot come to terms with what happened. So even though they're calling for my help and advice, they tell me things like, well, I knew something was off, but. And I'm like, lady, no, you didn't. You gave her $20,000. If you thought something was off, why are you giving her money? Like, because of what you just said. They cannot admit to themselves that they fell for it. So that when they tell the story to themselves and to others. Well, they knew. Oh, I knew something was off. No, you didn't. I got conned out of close to 100 grand. I didn't think anything was off. I fell for it. Hard, firm. Like, I believed it. Otherwise, why would I part with my money, you know? But so many people are not in a place psychologically where they can accept that. So they create this story that. Well, I knew. I went along. I knew.

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Jonathan Walton]

It's so weird. Human nature, delusion.

[Hannah Smith]

It's, like, too heartbreaking to accept that reality, probably for some people.

[Jonathan Walton]

And I completely get that because I was in the closet for 30 years, the first 30 years of my life, I couldn't accept I was gay. And people are like, well, you always knew. I'm like, no, I was dating women. I. I had this Disney idea of love. Like, if I met the right woman, all of this would change. Like, I believe that, even though that's a delusion. But it protected me because by the time I did accept I was gay, I nearly took my life. I didn't want to live. I came so close. Guardian angel came out of nowhere and saved my life. But I'd planned my suit. I planned to leave. I couldn't deal with it.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

And that's why that delusion was created, that I just need to keep dating women and meet the right woman. Meet the right woman. Well, no one's the right woman because I'm a homo.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

But I couldn't face that until I was 30. So I get. I understand delusion better than most.

[Hannah Smith]

Believe me, that story hits real home for me. Just sidebar. Because my ex husband is gay and similar thing. And I think whenever. I won't go too deep into this, but, like, whenever he came out and we got divorced, we're still very good friends, by the way. People would sort of be like, well, you had to have known, or he had to have known, or some people thought, well, he knew and he was doing something to you. Like, you know, And I was like, that's just absolutely not the case. Believe me, I lived through this.

[Jonathan Walton]

Right. It's not the case. He loved you. I know he loved you. And I was in love with a woman who, thank God, would not have me because I would have wrecked her life because I'm gay. But I guarantee you, he loved you. And he was trying to make it work and trying to try to not be what he eventually accepted he was. But it's hard.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. It's interesting that you make that parallel because it does show how deep those stories that we tell each other ourselves can go into our psyche and really affect what we actually consciously believe. One of the things I thought was interesting is you talk about Occam's Razor in the book and sort of trying to think about, like, what is the most simple explanation for what could have happened here. Right. And you think about that when you're trying to piece together what really had happened and what were the lies and what were the truths. But what's interesting about that is that, like, thinking about, like, you being at her house and seeing this, like, framed antique Irish document, the mind is not gonna go to. Well, it's more plausible that she, this woman who's my neighbor and seems like, normal and charming and wonderful, has been, like, secretly, like, crafting this document and put it on her wall. It's like, no, the most logical explanation is that this is real and this is from her family.

[Jonathan Walton]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

And so it's, like, believable.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah. And, like, just to piggyback off of what Hannah's saying is when I was listening to that story for the first time, I was like, yeah, I could see. See how someone could fall for that. Because if I went home and say, told my husband, our neighbor is this Irish heiress who's having trouble getting her inheritance. He's a lawyer. He'd probably be like, what? But I would think if she was trying to con me, she'd come up with something more believable.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yes.

[Taisha Eaton]

More just, like, common that you hear about. But instead it's this, like, over the top situation that. Who would come up with that if they were trying to convince their neighbor in LA to give them money?

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah. And that's the paradox of life. The bigger the lie, the more believable. And you would think the opposite would be true. We're suspicious of little lies because someone tells you, oh, I'm from Ireland, you're not going to doubt that. You just accept, well, now I doubt everything all the time. But at the time, I was, okay, like, who's going to lie about where they're from? You know, when I met her, she says she has lupus. Okay. She was in surgical stockings. Come to find out, she had just gotten lipo from a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon who she tried to scam as well, but he doesn't want to go on record. But she knew that telling me she had lupus, A, I would believe it, and B, that would evoke a lot of sympathy for me. And it did. And it did. And she was limping, but it was lipo, not lupus. You know, we just believe when we meet new people, we don't suspect they're con artists. But if they're waving the flags as she was. Because I have this fantasy now, years later, that if I met her today, knowing what I know now about con artists and having written this book, would I be able to discern she's a con artist? And the answer is absolutely. Within the first 20 minutes of talking to this woman, she was waving nearly every red flag I write about. They were all there. But if you don't know what they look like, you're not going to notice. It's like if you're standing in Times Square and there are thousands of people walking by you, you just see, like, a sea of people. You don't really notice anything. But if I tell you, hey, look for the guy with a bowler hat and glasses, immediately you spot that guy 100ft, there he is. That's the bowler hat. That's a different kind of hat, I was told. So the red flags are the same way. Once I point them out, you can spot them immediately. She was waving all of them. The way she really got her hooks into me, looking back, and this was the con just for me, is at the time I had come out at 30, and by the time I met her, I hadn't been home for Christmas in, like, nearly eight years because part of my family disowned me. Part of my family said, keep that away from us. We never want to see you again. You know, and as much as I thought that didn't bother me. I mean, of course it bothered me. God, I'm such a. We're all in various stages of denial at various times. And then we look back at. Wait a minute. That was denial. Of course it bothered me. Like, I was. Hadn't been home for Christmas. So as soon as she finds out that detail of my life, she matches it. She says, well, my family disowned me, too, because they're trying to get me disinherited. And she would go on to wave a lot of red flag number six technology. She would sell me the story of her family through digital screens. You know, through her cell phone, through her iPad, through her laptop, I would see texts from her cousins, Finton, and the names Finton Tristan Dermot, and her uncle, Patridge Clark, who dies. And when he dies, you know, she is devastated. I find her bent over crying, and I hold her, and her tears wet my shirt and. And I'm rocking her, telling her it's okay. It's going to be okay. But none of that was real. Like her uncle was invented, her family was invented. She was not from Ireland. And yet she's such a brilliant actress. She's crying and even though I'm a gay guy, I still, a woman crying has such power over me. I will do anything to help her. So at that point, we weren't just two friends in la. We were two discarded souls with our families on the other side of the world who didn't want us. She became like my sister, you know, we would end phone calls. I love you. I love you. Like she was family. That's how she got in, you know, that's when I started to really care about her and that's when I was so incensed. God, the family's trying to destroy her. It's wrong. And I'm a do gooder. I'm going to help her. I'm so angry when I think about it, because she knew all that. Like she knew exactly how to manipulate me with the tears and the, you know, the family discarded her and. Yeah, and it worked. It worked great. It worked great. Until it didn't. So the short version is I start helping her. Her family makes up these, you know, they pay off a dirty district attorney. And this is around the time one of the former DAs was like charged with a crime. So it like it was newsy, you know, like, oh, like another one, okay, so I read about this one who's going to jail and now your family paid off another DA to invent a case on her so they could get her disinherited. Because there's a clause in the will, in her uncle's will that if any heir is convicted of a felony, they forfeit the inheritance. So it made sense to me. And she was standing to inherit close to US$10 million, the equivalent the part of the estate, it was a 25 million euro estate. And at the time she was going to get like 5 or 7 million, which in American dollars at the time was like close to 10 million. So I was a news reporter for 10 years. I would see stories all the time about husbands who kill their wives for million dollar insurance policies. And here we're talking about close to $10 million. Like what wouldn't someone do to get that money? Of course they're going to try to make up charges and get her arrested and get her whatever. So red flag number three, drama, drama, drama. The minute all this drama started happening, I rallied to her side to help her and the family paid off a DA to freeze her bank account. I started loaning her money to live on, you know, and I didn't think anything of it. I was so confident she'd pay me back. Because another red flag I write about in the book Red flag number eight, bequetting. And I see this again and again. A lot of romance scams, a lot of investment scams. The con artist will give you a little money up front. If it's an investment scam, they'll give you a little return on the investment. In this case, with my con artist, she gets arrested. I bail her out of jail. Cost almost $5,000 cash, and she pays me back the next day. So immediately I felt confident loaning her more money down the line. And while she's bleeding me dry, I have no doubt she's going to pay me back. I have no doubt this inheritance is coming. I have no doubt everything's going to be fine. I'm helping this woman. I feel justified, and I keep doubling down. Never for a second did I think I was getting scammed. Until the second I realized I was. 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[Taisha Eaton]

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[Jonathan Walton]

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[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, and also, like you said, you're like family at this point or you felt like family. And I think that puts things in perspective because I think a lot of people would do anything for their. Like there's someone, at least someone in their life where they think, like, I would literally do anything for them, you know? Cause the trust is so deep and the bond is so deep. And she was such a craftswoman at being able to create that with you. And so what did it take for you to start questioning? Because it just seems like the bond was so strong and she had really like. I mean, she was crying like, that is just so sick.

[Jonathan Walton]

I know.

[Hannah Smith]

What did it take for you to finally be like, wait a minute, this might not be what she says?

[Jonathan Walton]

So her last ask for money came when she hired a good lawyer in la and he was working this case that her family made up against her. And I'm believing everything because she's showing me emails and texts. Never for a second did I think she invented, created Google accounts to email and text herself to show me, like, who does that? Professional con artists do that. That's who. So, yeah, that's the red flag of technology. If someone is using technology, digital screens to back up what they're saying, be suspicious. That's weird. Regular people don't do that. So I believed that she needed the last $50,000 to make this case go away in court costs and lawyers fees and lawyers are expensive. That didn't strike me as odd. So I let her charge my credit cards $50,000. Wasn't worried at all because now she's going to get the inheritance. It's coming. She wins. We had a champagne dinner to celebrate like good times ahead. And then I go to pick her up for brunch one day and she's crying real tears. So I knew it was real. She tells me the judge is angry at her because he considers her charging my credit cards to pay her lawyer and court thing. Money laundering. I'm like, money laundering? Is that what money is it at that point? I hadn't been to court in like 20 something years. And when I was there it was to fight a traffic ticket. I don't know anything about the criminal court system. I'm a TV producer. I don't know. I'm not involved in that world. So I don't know. So I accepted what she said. And she said the judge is going to punish her with 30 days in jail to teach her a lesson. It's not a felony to slap on the wrist to teach her a lesson. 30 days in jail. I'm like, wow, okay, well, you'll be out in 30 days and you'll get your inheritance. Yes. Everything's great. Yes. So she goes to jail. She calls me collect from jail every day. Two weeks in, I'm like, I'm going to come see you. She's like, no, no, no, I don't need to see me like this. I'm so embarrassed. Well, she's like, my sister. Of course I'm going to go see her. So I don't know if you've ever visited anyone in jail, but in LA county, you have to log on to the website. You have to create, like, a Facebook profile. You have to upload your driver's license and create a name and a picture. And then after you do all of that and they approve, you have to click on the inmate you want to visit. And when I clicked on her name, that's when what she was in jail for came up in black and white. It said felony grand theft, not money laundering. Exactly. And it was a felony. And she assured me it wasn't a felony, because if it's a felony, she doesn't get her inheritance. So I would still stupidly believe there's inheritance at this point. I'm like, oh, no, she's not going to get her inheritance. But I'm like, grand theft. That's not what she told me. I get a heat washes over me. At the time, I was producing a show called Booze Traveler for the Travel Channel, and when I find all this out on my computer screen and that's all it says, felony grand theft. I don't know what is it. So I print it out and I tell my boss, I'm like, I gotta go. I have an emergency. He's like, go. So I go to the courthouse and I go to the clerk and I hand them the paper, and I'm like, I need all the. All the case files on this. And they're like, all of them. I'm like, yeah. And it costs like $100 because they got to make copies of everything. And it took a while, but I got it. And I sat there in the corner of the courtroom, hands trembling, reading everything, just unraveling.

[Taisha Eaton]

Everything.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah, well, everything about this case. I mean, everything I was reading was brand new to me.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

So in going over all those court records, I realized she lied about everything. Like she pled guilty to stealing $200,000 from the travel agency she worked for. And she scammed the money from me to pay restitution in that case, to convince the judge that she's good for it and she's going to pay the rest back. So that 50 grand she got from me was to pay restitution. And that's why she only got a 30 day sentence. She was looking at five years otherwise.

[Taisha Eaton]

But at the time that you're going through all of these court records, she's still in jail.

[Jonathan Walton]

She's in jail, right.

[Taisha Eaton]

So you're like, okay, now I'm understanding that things are not adding up, right?

[Jonathan Walton]

And by this point I went home and just collapsed in my husband's arms, crying. I didn't know she was a professional con artist on the run from authorities in the uk, But I did know she lied to me to get this money. Now we're screwed. How can I let this happen? But at the same time, I have this naive belief that I'm going to start gathering evidence, police are going to do something. I was the baker and into the woods in college. I can act. So I'm going to act like everything's fine. So when she would call me collect, she's still in jail. Oh, yeah, everything's fine. I'm coming to pick you up. So she gets out to her word in 30 days. Two weeks later, she's out and I pick her up. But I'm recording the whole thing because I think, ooh, I'm going to get a confession. But when I confront her, she denies it and she starts tearing up. But that's not true, Jonathan. I'm like, you've been lying to us the whole time. That's not true. I'm like, that court thing, you were paying restitution. That's not true, Jonathan. That's not. Like, I have the records here. She looked away. I'm like, I'm gonna go to police. She's like, you do what you need to do. But that's not true. That's, you know, And I'm like, well, when are you gonna pay us back? I'll pay you back. I'll pay. You know, it's like. And then I realized I'm never gonna get paid back. You know, in the confrontation, I thought if I threatened to go to the police, she'll pay me back. She said she would. But then at that point I'm like, no, you're not. This is a scam. Like, I didn't know there were so many other victims out there. I just knew this, you know, based on your past actions. You were just scamming me the whole time.

[Taisha Eaton]

What did it feel like to be sitting in the car with her? This person who, the last time you physically saw her, she was your friend, someone you trusted enough to loan all of this money to. And then to be sitting next to her and seeing someone totally different.

[Jonathan Walton]

I was in a space where I immediately understood murder. I understood it. I wanted to kill her. I wanted to bash her head in a wall. So here's the thing about me. I'm a vegetarian. I'm a live and let live. I take the spider and release him outside. I get a cup and a piece of paper. I don't kill anything. But in the months after realizing what happened, I would have these detailed murder fantasies of me strangling her to death and watching the life drift out of her eyes and enjoying it, of me throwing her off the top of our building. These are daydreams I'm having, and they're bringing me joy. And when I told my best friend Evan about this, the look on his face was like, what the. He's like, dude, you need help. Like, you need to talk to someone. And I'm like, I am talking to someone you like. So. But I started looking into getting help because this is not the person I knew. And the frightening thing was, I enjoyed it. It brought me relief, you know? So I was going to see a shrink, and I start researching, and I come to find out this is a normal reaction for victims to fantasize about hurting their perpetrator. It happens to most victims of every kind of crime. Attempted murder, rape, whatever. There's a period victims go through. Mine lasted three or four months, where you have routine fantasies of hurting them or killing them. And they eventually went away. I'm not a murderer. But in that moment when I picked her up, I was enraged. Enraged. I'm still a human. I'm not going to do anything that I'm going to go to jail for. So I held back. But it's weird. We so often judge people well, how could you do that? How could you? You know when you're in a position when you get royally effed over and the emotions take over? I get it. I get how I could have killed her. And I would have felt justified. In the moment, I would have felt justified. You deserve this, what you did to me. But no murder is wrong. If someone scams you, don't kill them as much as you want to. Believe me, I know. I know the feeling.

[Hannah Smith]

I mean, I appreciate the honesty, though, because that's like, as you said, what a lot of people go through, and that's like. Sounds like a very intense thing to feel and experience. And, I mean, that tape that you have of her, you know, dodging. It's not true. It's not true. No, no. It feels so in line with con artists. It feels. I mean, I've spoken with a few people, jailhouse calls of people who have scammed people, and that feels very similar. Not admitting anything, always trying to say, no, I'm the victim. No, you're misunderstanding. I don't know if it would have mattered because she's already done the horrible thing to you, but I imagine that maybe in your. You were hoping for a different reaction. Like, if she had just been like, oh, my gosh, you're so right. I'm so. I did do this. I did it. And actually just admitted to what she did, would that have changed anything for you?

[Jonathan Walton]

I mean, you're very perceptive. Yeah. You hit it on the head. Absolutely. That's what I wanted. I wanted an apology. It frightens me to say this out loud. Had she have apologized and tried to make good or whatever, I would not have gone to police. I wouldn't have. I would have foolishly thought, all right, she'll pay us back and we'll try to work on it, whatever. And that would have really deluded my criminal case because the time it takes for you to go to police after something happens, if it's a long. The longer that time is, they hold it against you. Well, why didn't you report this? It happened, you know, and there's a statute of limitations, so. Thank God. In the moment, yeah, I was expecting an apology. I would have loved an apology, an admission of what she did. You know, anyone who's wronged does. But thank God she didn't because, yeah, that gave me the impetus to go to police. Who? I go to police, and after I explain everything, they tell me, well, there's nothing we can do. It's not a crime. And I'm like, squat now. Well, it's not a crime. You gave her the money. And I'm like, really? So it's not a crime? No, it's not a crime. You know, good luck in civil court. You can hire a lawyer and sue her, but there's nothing criminal here. Good luck. And as I'm walking away, I'm just staggering, like, in a post war haze, like. And I put my hands on the Glass door of the LAPD downtown office. As I'm pushing it open, I call it my guardian angel, something welled up and shouted in my brain, no, no, no, no. This cannot be true. No, no. And I turn back around and I go back to that cop at the desk, and I'm like, this makes no sense. It's not a crime because I gave her the money. What about Bernie Madoff? They gave him the money, but he's convicted. He's in jail. At the time, he was in jail. He since died. What about the scams? Were they pretend to be from the IRS and scam the elderly out of thousands? That's a crime, right? Yes. So what about when a guy with a gun holds up a 7 11, the cashier gives them the money. How is giving the money mean it's not a crime? That makes no sense. No, no. And I start dumping out all the evidence I have. I had a satchel. And I'm like, phone records, emails, text messages, bank records, credit cards. Like, these are lies she told me. And immediately in that moment, the officer seems impressed. And he pauses and looks at me and he's like, what do you do for a living? And I snap back. I'm a TV producer. He's like, any shows I would have heard of?

[Taisha Eaton]

Oh, God.

[Jonathan Walton]

So I pulled out the big one. I'm like, yeah, I did Shark Tank season four. And immediately his eyes light up. He's like, shark Tank, huh? And he's like, I've been trying to pitch something to the sharks for years.

[Taisha Eaton]

This is like the most Los Angeles twist of all time.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yes. And in that moment, even though I'm violating all the paperwork I signed to work on Shark Tank, in that moment, I'm like, I can help you. Help me. I'll help you. He's like, okay, here's what you gotta do. He's like, I'll take a police report, but you gotta call about your case every single day. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, you know, because I was of the mind, you file a police report, it's in their hands. They're gonna handle it. No, that's not how it works. He said, after you leave, by the end of the day, 500 other police reports will be on top of yours in this pile. Every time you call about your case, it gets taken from the bottom and placed on the top. And there's some discussion about you and your case with other officers, like, oh, Jonathan Walton's calling again. So that was the best advice I Could have ever received from anyone. He never called me to help get him on Shark Tank.

[Taisha Eaton]

Wonder what his idea was.

[Jonathan Walton]

I don't know, but I would have helped him. Listen, I'm a man of my word. I would have absolutely helped him. Because you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And I called about my case every day. And by the third week, it got assigned to a detective. And then I get a call from the detective, and I make an appointment to come down and interview with him. And then he calls me. He's like, I can't do the interview because I got reassigned. Now your case is being assigned to an officer who's trying to make detective. I inferred it's the dunce of the police station. I'm like, great. So then I go and talk to the officer. He interviews me for hours. I didn't know he's recording it, but he did. And then he calls me days later and is like, I watched your video of the interview with my sergeant, and we believe you.

[Taisha Eaton]

You're like, there was a video?

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah. So at that point, I'm like, you know what? I can't. You guys are useless. Like, I started my own investigation. I started a blog telling my story, warning people. I didn't know other victims are out there. But I knew she's probably, you know, trying to shake down other people. So I just said, whatever she tells you, don't give her money. You know, this is what she looks like. This is her name, blah, blah. And I start getting contacted by tons of other people she scammed and some with different names. So every time I'd find a new name, she used. She used, like, Marianne Clark, Marianne Welch. Like, I would put it on the blog so it's findable in a search, you know, a keyword. So I start hearing from all these victims. Every time I hear from a victim, I call the office. I'm like, here's another victim. Here's another victim. Here's another victim. Here's another victim at one point. And, God, you know, I feel bad bashing the lapd, but then I don't feel bad because I lived through this. At one point, the sergeant calls me, hey, stop giving out our number. These aren't helping. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, there are other victims of the woman who scammed me? They have nothing to do with your case. Like, tell them to go file their own police report. So cut to. We're a month away from the trial, and the DA that's handling the trial asked me Are there any other victims? I'm like, yeah, tons. He's like, well, why didn't the police investigate them? I'm like, I know the sergeant said, they have nothing to do with my case.

[Taisha Eaton]

Now that's infuriating.

[Jonathan Walton]

And the DA took his glasses off and is like, they have everything to do with your case. I'm like, I know that's what I said. It's like, but I was just a victim of the system. A guy with a badge is telling you, this is how it works. You just accept it. But now I know better. And it's in the book, what you got to do. So when police turn you away, which 9 out of 10 victims who call me for help, it's because police have turned them away. You can't just go, show up, boohoo, cry, you got scammed. You have to think of it as a college speech class presentation you're going to make. You got to have props, you got to have evidence, you got to have witness statements. You got to write up an affidavit. You got to have. And I say this in the book, pitching a criminal case to police is like pitching a television show to a network executive. You got to make it sexy and fun and intriguing, and you got to be the protagonist, and you got to have a beginning, middle and end. You got to rehearse it before you go. You got to put on a show for the cop and then he'll take a report. And I see this again and again in the cases I've worked on. They turn the victim away. I help the victim create a good case. They go back and they take a report. But nobody's telling victims this. I am. But this is not well known. You think you go and tell them what happened, they'll take a report. No. If it's a scam, nine out of 10 times they tell you go to civil court. And that's not because they don't care. They do care. They're just overwhelmed. They got murders and rapes, especially in a big city like la, they're overwhelmed. So if they can send you to another place that helps them in their job, that's one less thing they have to do there.

[Hannah Smith]

I love that you focus so much on that in this book and that you really go through a plan of how you could put something like this together, how you could take it. I mean, the amount of people that even Paisha and I have had email us saying I was scammed. What do I do? I need help. The police, they told me it's a civil matter. And we've talked with people who do take it to civil courts. They win the suit, well, they're not getting that restitution. And then that person is still romping around the world scamming other people, and they feel so hopeless. And you've had, I'm sure, so many people reach out to you. You talk about that in the book after you have come out public with your story and the podcast. You have people reaching out to you all the time. And I just love you get involved and that you've created this resource to help people because it does seem so difficult. And also, you know, people are at varying degrees of heartbroken and financially broken when they're having to take these steps. Was that one of the reasons you wrote the book, or what was the impetus of creating this sort of handbook for people?

[Jonathan Walton]

That's another great question. Yeah. So I had never planned to write a book. I'm not an author. I'm a TV producer. So my story goes public. My con artist gets convicted. There's a trial, and she's convicted. And it was such a healing experience for me, watching all that go down, being a part of that, testifying against her as she sat there in court wondering. I'm wondering to myself. I didn't want to eyeball the jury to make them uncomfortable, but in my peripheral, I'm looking, all right, it's mostly young men, young women, a couple of older people. Okay, are they believing me? Because she never testified, and looking back, her lawyer brought up a lot of reasonable doubt brilliantly. Hats off. He really defended her well. He said, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Jonathan Walton is a TV producer. I am a TV producer. That's true. You notice the camera in the courtroom? The camera is recording everything because Jonathan got permission. Jonathan's recording everything. That's true. I applied to get a camera in the courtroom. Thank God the judge allowed it. 50, 50. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Thank God they did. Because Jonathan's making a documentary, Jonathan's making a movie. That's true. I am. So those three things are true. Here's the lie. Well, Jonathan's making up all this stuff because he wants a good movie. He's in Hollywood and he wants a good movie. And I'm like, that's not true. I'm not making up anything. But if you're a jury and you're like, that's true, that's true, that's true. Maybe he is making everything up. So that was a real concern of mine, that the Jury might believe that because reasonable doubt is a hell of a space you can drive a truck through. Like, what's reasonable doubt? It could be so many things. And he was raising a lot of reasonable doubt. But the thing that I believe sunk Marianne Smith in court was she couldn't find a single solitary person, not a family member, not a friend, not a co worker, no one to get up on that stand and testify on her behalf, to say good things about her. Not one. And if you're the jury, you gotta be asking yourself, no one wanted to put their reputation on the line to say she's a good. No one. So evidence be damned. In my mind, looking back at how it all went down, it was a three day trial. I think that did it. Because at least in other instances, when you see the criminal, their mother, oh, my daughter's a good. Their father, their friend, their husband, their boyfriend, whatever, she's a really good person. She tries. Really, there was none of that for her. So that's very telling, you know, and it wasn't for lack of trying. She tried. People would call me like, hey, they asked me if I could testify on Marianne's behalf today because they don't know that this person's been in touch with me and knows she's a con, you know, but, yeah, that did her in. So what happened was my case exploded. I did a podcast, Queen of the Con. I was in the Hollywood Reporter. I was in the New York Times. Like, my story kind of went viral. And all of a sudden, hundreds and hundreds of victims of other cons start reaching out to me for help, asking, you know, you've inspired me. I want to go after my con artist now. What do I do? Can you help me? What do I do? Can you help me? What do I do? Can you help me? So not knowing any better and feeling like I want to put to use all this stuff I've learned in dealing with the system. It took me two years to get that conviction. Two years. And it was an obsession. A few months in, I had to hide it from my husband because he would get mad when he saw me online, like working the case, you know, And I had to hide it from my friend. Everyone thought I was crazy. And everyone told me, you need to let this go. You need to let this go. And I pretended to let it go. I had to pretend to let it go to have peace in my home. But I didn't. I never let it go. I was obsessed. And that's what it takes. And I was obsessed. So my story Exploded. People start calling me for help, and I start helping. You know, some people play golf on the weekends. I started hunting con artists, and I start looking into these cases, and after, like, I don't know, a few dozen, it begins to dawn on me, like, wait a minute, wait a minute. All of these techniques in all these disparate cases that all these disparate con men and con women are using on their victims are identical to what mine did to me. Like, they're identical. So I just started making notes. Oh, offer to help. Oh, too kind, Too quick. Oh, drama, drama. Oh, they isolated them. Oh, they pretended they were better than them. Oh, they used technology a lot. Oh, they had a good day job. A lot of con artists have a good day job. And that's to make you think, oh, there's no way this is a scam. They have a good day job. Like, they must be real. There's one case I write about in the book. The con artist worked in the mayor's office.

[Hannah Smith]

That was wild.

[Jonathan Walton]

How could she be a con artist? She's in the mayor's office. That case is still ongoing. I've spent, like, close to ten grand of my own money on that case so far. I'm not letting that woman get away if it's the last thing I do. But anyway, I wrote an article for the HuffPost. I wrote something that eventually became an article for the HuffPost. At that point, I only had eight of the red flags. And I got a call from a big time literary agent, Jenna Landfree, with Folio, and she's like, hey, I loved your article. I think it would make a great book. She's like, I bet you I could sell a book like this. If I sell it, can you write it? I'm like, sure. Not thinking she could sell it, but then she sold it. Like, she's so good, you know, she's amazing.

[Taisha Eaton]

And one thing I want to touch on, that's one of your red flags, is drama, drama, drama, which is such a catchy way of putting it. But it's something. You know, Hannah and I see this all the time, where the con artist creates this. Something is always wrong, something is always happening. And the person that they're conning, the purpose of this is you're just preoccupying them so they don't know up from down. They can't assess whether or not you're even telling the truth because they're too busy trying to save you from some chaotic situation.

[Jonathan Walton]

Exactly. And what they also do, and it's so easy to do. But regular people never think of doing this. This con artist who's now your new friend. If they find out you had a bad breakup, you know, they'll say, hey, I saw your boyfriend parked upside of your place last night, like for two hours. Like, I was going to call you, but I didn't want to frighten you. But yeah, what's going like, so that's not true. But you have no way of knowing that's not true. So now you're scared of the boyfriend. And again, con artists don't outsmart you. They out feel you. And fear is a powerful feeling. And if you're busy being scared, you're not thinking with your intellect, you know you're going to get scammed. This is how they manipulate you. Yeah, they drama, drama. And the way I read it when I recorded the audiobook is red flag number three. Drama, drama, drama. Perfect. Get the audiobook.

[Taisha Eaton]

That's even better. Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

It's so powerful. And I'm glad you both have experience talking to victims and you concur. It's a powerful, powerful trap that kind of gets you off kilter and you don't know up from down, going or coming. And you're that much more likely to believe the next thing.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yes, totally.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah. So that's why I wrote the book. It was an article, now it's a book. And I am very proud of it. I've read it 8 million times because, God, the process of editing. And after the publisher has their way with it, they want me to read it the final time. It takes a village. Because we're still catching typos up until print. But I'm very proud of it, I think. Yes. The last two chapters I explain what to do if you've been conned. But the whole book is how to not get conned. These are the red flags. And when I point them out, they're easy to spot. The TMI technique. Oh, red flag number 12. Stories from faraway places. This is what my con artist was waving immediately. Con artists like to snow you with stories from faraway places because they're hard to validate. They're hard to prove false. I was on the Olympic team in 1988 when I was a kid in France. I was a junior on the. On the Olympic team in France. Can you prove that's fake? No. They use human nature against us. Human nature being what it is. If we can't prove something is false, we just accept it as true. And that's how they live and breathe life into their stories. Stories from far away places. So, you know, if they're offering to help you, they're too kind, too quick. There's a lot of drama. They're isolating you from people. They're telling you, oh, this person said this about you, and don't talk to them. They're getting you not to talk to people. That's a huge red flag. You know, they're using digital screens technology to sell their stories. You know, there's an element of scarcity in a lot of these cons. You got to act quick. I need it by this date. The IPO is going public on Friday, so if you want in, I need that 20,000 by Friday. Like scarcity, you know, they're all very effective tools, but once I point them out, God, are they easy to spot. And I enjoy spotting them.

[Taisha Eaton]

In every case, your book, it's like if someone has someone in their life that they feel like is being conned and they're not seeing it, your book is a really safe space for that person to come to their own conclusion.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yes.

[Taisha Eaton]

And I also really appreciate how digestible it is. You know, so many books that analyze human behavior through any one lens can be, you know, maybe a little more complicated or, or just harder to get through. But yours, I think, by way of great storytelling, also makes it a really rive read, along with being super informative. And I was so happy to have read it.

[Jonathan Walton]

That means so much to me. Thank you so much. You know, the more I go along on this journey, I feel like I was in the perfect position to do this work. Why me? When I got conned, it felt like the end of the world. I was so angry at everything and everyone and God. I was angry at God. I would ask, how could you let this happen to me? I was just trying to help her, you know, like, I felt forsaken. And I'm not religious like everyone in la. I'm spiritual, but I believe in God. And I felt forsaken. But as time has passed and what I've been able to do with it, I realized what a tremendous blessing it's been. I was the Chosen One. I was Neo. I was meant to stop her. No one had stopped her until I came along. No one. Everyone limps away quietly into the night. No one says anything. No one does anything. I'm the guy to do it. In the same way I was the guy to help this woman get her inheritance. I'm the guy to stop her. And not only stop her, expose her and avoid other people from getting conned. One of the most thrilling days of my life. Still to this day, one of the first victims I found, who found me before the conviction, before she was charged, she got evicted because she had convinced our landlord she had cancer and couldn't pay rent and was in the hospital getting surgery and treatments. And she had skated by not paying rent for six months. And once I exposed her, I went to the landlord to, hey, this woman scammed me. And she's like, oh, but she has cancer. I'm like, no, she doesn't. She don't got no cancer. No, that's con. She started evicting her. So at this point, mayor met someone on Tinder. An engineer in Newport Beach, a guy named Bob. Wealthy guy, owns two homes. And again, once I point this out, you see how similar the paths are. The first date, he confides in her that he's not happy with his child custody arrangement with his kids and his ex wife, and he wishes he had a better arrangement of the custody. And she says, well, this is meant to be because I happen to be a child custody investigator for the courts.

[Hannah Smith]

My God.

[Jonathan Walton]

And I can help you. Red flag number one, they offer to help. And think of Bob. Those two kids, it was like a seven and nine year old boy and a girl. They mean the world to him. So now his intellect is taking a backseat, his emotion has taken over, and he invites this con artist into his life. She quickly moves into his home, she starts spending time with his kids, and she creates this crazy story. She creates all these characters similar to me, but it was a private investigator. It was a local district attorney. She's impersonating all these people over text and email and showing Bob. Your wife, she says, is running a BDSM sex club out of her home while the kids are sleeping. Here's evidence. We've tapped her phones, like, this is going to help your custody arrangement. And Bob is terrified but thrilled because now he's going to get full custody of his kids. Or so he thinks. Well, obviously, none of these characters were real. There was no private investigator. There was no district attorney. Bob's ex wife is not running a BDSM sex club out of her home while the kids are sleeping. That's all drama, drama, drama to get Bob to do what she wants. So the scam for Bob was. It was a tweak on the inheritance scam for me. She loves her family. In this scam, she's getting $25 million in an inheritance that's coming any day. So she's going to buy a house with 12 million. So she gets into Bob's Land Rover. He's a big successful guy, and they get a realtor, and they start looking at these expensive homes in Newport beach, and she's going to buy one. She picks the one she's going to buy, and she tells Bob, I'm going to put your name on it with me. I want to own this with you. And Bob's like, no, I can't let you do that. If our relationship goes south, I'll own half your home. That's not right, because Bob's a good guy. So she's like, well, if you want to make it right, just add my name to the titles of your two homes and we'll be equal. So she draws up paperwork to add his name. Bob brings his kids to pick out their bedrooms. She put in a written offer on the house, like, there is no money. But she's gotten everyone to believe it this far because she needs to get her name added to his home. So right around the time this is all happening, Bob's ex wife suddenly gets curious. Who the hell is this woman Mayor Smith, spending all this time around my kids? I want to know about her. So what does she do? She does what we all do when we want to know something. She Googles. She googles Mayor Smith and up pops my blog. And he is shocked. She prints out the blog. Mayor is, like, living at his house at this point. She calls Bob and she's like, hey, I need to see you right away. Oh, okay. Me and Mare will come over. No, no, no, let's meet in the park. Don't bring Mayor. I need you alone. Okay, okay. So they meet in the park. The ex wife gives Bob the blog and says, this is the woman who's around our kids. She's a con artist. Bob's like, there's no, no, this can't. This can't be. So Bob takes the printed out blog back home. Mayor comes to the door, and Bob hands it to her and says, what's this? And in true con artist fashion, they know when the gigs up, they know. She didn't say a word. She just walked right past him, ran over to her car and drove away. She left her shit there. She was scared.

[Taisha Eaton]

It's utterly terrible. But like, oh, my God, what a story.

[Jonathan Walton]

Wow. So the phone call I got from Bob, the first time he called, he was crying like, thank you. You saved me. You saved me. Thank you.

[Hannah Smith]

Because he hadn't put her name on the houses yet.

[Jonathan Walton]

No. But the paperwork was drawn up. And he said he was never going to do it. But I'm like, but your kids picked out their bedrooms. Dude, you brought your kids. So again, it's a little of, oh, I knew. No, you didn't. Your kids picked out. That's crazy.

[Taisha Eaton]

It can be so hard to distance yourself from believing.

[Jonathan Walton]

Oh, I know. But the love I have for Bob because he wound up testifying in my case. He wound up testifying and he helped put her in jail and he supported like he was. So still to this day, he sent me the screen grab. He pre ordered the book. He's so excited. He's such a great, amazing guy. And it just fills me with a sense of purpose. Like I feel like this is my mission, you know, in the same way my blog saved him. I want to save everyone. I want to point out Mayor Smith is not an anomaly. There are versions of her everywhere. The problem is there aren't versions of me everywhere. The vast majority of victims don't say anything. And I've wrestled with this question because I get asked it all the time. Well, why are you different? At first I thought it had something to do with me being gay, coming out at 30 and having to accept that people aren't going to be happy. I can't care what people think. And yes, that's part of it. That's part of my not caring what people think. That's part of that, where that comes from. But I wish this was in the book, but it's not. But this is the truth that I figured out recently. So I have a degree in broadcast journalism. I was a TV reporter for 10 years. My first on air job was in San Antonio. I was hired at KBB in San Antonio, KBB tv. And my job was to do something fun. I was a feature reporter. So like fun, interesting stories. So my first night on the air, I'd never been on the air. I'm like 24, 25 years old. I'm a kid. My first on air job. I go out and shoot this funny story, interview these people, I craft it, I edit it into a two minute piece. We call it a package and news business. And then I front it in the studio and the anchors are laughing and clapping and I walk back into the newsroom and all the producers and the guy who hired me, Alan Little, God rest his soul. And my executive producer, Greg Kelkin passed away too, God rest his soul. Applauding I'm like king of the world. I'm like, yes, this is what I'm like. I'm so Good. I feel like, God, I've never had a highlight that since. And then a minute later I get over to my desk and I sit down and I get my first viewer voicemail. It has rung in my head ever since I got it, that voicemail. This angry woman, Texas woman, you bald headed faggot. You so fucking ugly. How the hell you get on tv? You bald headed faggot.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Jonathan Walton]

I was devastated. I was devastated. And I had this crisis of faith. Like, I can't do this job. What am I doing here? I went to bed that night coiled in the fetal position, crying like, I gotta quit. I can't do. I can't do this job. So over the ensuing weeks, I'm like, what am I? Am I this brilliant new reporter who's funny and gets a standing ovation in the newsroom? Or am I this guy too ugly to be on tv? And like, what am I? So what a blessing that event in my life was because I quickly figured out the only way I'm going to be able to function. I can't listen to anyone. I can't seek anyone's opinion. You'll ask one question and get 10 answers. I can't. And I'm a kid, learn. I'm 20, I'm in my early 20s, learning this, thank God. And as I went on in television and I got another job at the CBS station in Houston, I had that mentality like, I don't care what you think. Not only do I not care what you think, it's not even occurring to me to care because people ask me, weren't you scared to go to police? Like, weren't you worried what they would think? No, it literally never occurred to me. What are they going to think? I don't care. Never occurred to me. And the reason that is is because of these, you know, foundational experiences I had as a, as a kid. Like, that's how I had to be. So that's what makes me intrinsically different than most other victims. They were never on the air in San Antonio to get those conflicting. What are you, the second coming of Christ? Or are you too damn ugly and stupid? Like, what are you, you know, God. So that was such a blessing. And again, I just believe I'm in the perfect place, the perfect time, doing the perfect thing. I'm meant to be here. I'm meant to share what I've learned. And I still can't believe. How has there not been a book about these red flags before? I gotta be the guy to write it. Yeah, I Guess so, because I've read every con artist book and they're all so victim pejorative. Some of them outright make fun of victims. And some like, how could you be so stupid? Like, no, there's a system that they use, and this is what it looks and sounds like and feels like. And until it's happening to you and they got into your emotion, like, with Bob, I can help you get a better custody arrangement. Who doesn't want that? Like, they offer to help and you love them. They get you to love them. Love is the most powerful force there is in the universe. People kill for love. People die for love. And a con artist's job is to get you to love them or love the thing they're creating. Because once you're making decisions on that love, you're not thinking straight. You're going to get conned.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it's so great. It's such a great resource because I think a lot of people are afraid to go to the police or just maybe wouldn't even know where to start. And the idea of trying to figure that out can feel overwhelming. And so who you are and your life experiences, like, all aligned to where you were able to really take this on and so grateful that you were able to get justice in your case and then as well, like, support other people. And, you know, it's interesting thinking about, you know, you mentioned the same thing that sort of got you conned in some ways is this desire to help her, this Irish heiress, is also the same thing that your desire to help other people, but not in like a scammy way. And it makes me think about how the thing that makes people susceptible to being conned is their humanity in so many ways. It's just like human nature. It's psychology. It's the good parts of people too, right? The things that, like, they don't actually want to erase about themselves. What are they supposed to do? Never love someone again? Never trust someone again? Like, what kind of life is that? But I like the clarity of how you've pointed out these red flags and you point out that, you know, maybe just one of them might not be a red flag on its own. But really think critically about if someone that you're meeting has like three or four or five and, you know, yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

If they're five, it's a scam.

[Hannah Smith]

If there are five.

[Jonathan Walton]

If you've identified five of these red flags, yeah, you're gonna find. You're gonna find a bunch more. Walk away, get away, run away, walk away.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So it's nice that there's these like tools that are clear and that the answer is not just don't ever care about anyone again, you know?

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah, because people ask me that all the time. Well, it's ruined your trust in people. I'm like, it has, but I'm glad I now I pretend to trust everyone, but secretly I'm verifying. You know, I'm still a nice person, I still make friends, but I'm suspicious. The other night I was dragged to this cocktail party in the Valley, which in la it's like if you live in la, you got to go to the Valley. It's over the hill, it's a trek. So I'm at this cocktail party and this new couple comes in. They're friends of a friend who came and it's a very good looking couple, men and women. They look like an only fans couple. And you know, they introduced themselves to us briefly and they're retired, they're from Arizona. They came here to retire in la. And that was weird, but okay, you're retiring in la. But then because of that weirdness and they were hot, I paid attention, I tried to eavesdrop. That's just me. No one else did. I did. This is a weird story that you're retiring. You guys are in your like early 30s or late 30s, like retiring. It's possible, sure. So then as I'm eavesdropping, I hear them telling three other origin stories. Some people they, they tell. He works in security at the mall and she has a, she's a, she does hair and makeup. Like, but wait a minute, that's not what they told me. So now I'm obsessed with these people because I'm not very good at cocktail parties. I only like people I like. Like, I don't want to meet new people. So now I have something to do. I start like getting a drink and hanging around and listening to. Yeah, but I didn't have the bandwidth to take on that case. But I told the person who threw the party, I'm like, listen, these people, how do you know them? Oh, they're friends of blah blah. Well, something's up. Like why would they tell three different origin stories? Only a scammer does that. They're hiding something. They're lying about themselves. And they're so good looking. A lot of scammers are good looking because they learn to use it and work it. So I don't know what the scam is, but stay away from these people. And I left. But I guarantee you there was some Kind of con going on.

[Taisha Eaton]

I also think like in your life when you meet people and you develop friendships, non con artist people, quote, like normal people. They I think are usually pretty comfortable with. Like trust is earned and not over asking and not like you said, over sharing. I mean if you meet someone and they immediately like need something from you or, or want to help the biggest.

[Hannah Smith]

Problem in your life, as you've said, immediately with, you know.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah, tmi, the help is fake. You know, Mare with Bob, she was not a child custody investigator with the courts. But it's easy to lie. Like, hey, I'm going through, you know, I just, my car was impounded. Hey, I know someone at the impound lot. Oh, but you don't need to know someone, you just need to extend the offer. And now they like you. Yeah, yeah, they can get in there. You know, the help is a lie, but it's powerful. It makes you like them immediately. What they're trying to do is get you to like them immediately. And who doesn't like a helper? We all do.

[Hannah Smith]

Well, if I meet anyone that I'm, I have questions about Jonathan, I will make sure to invite both you and them to an event and then I'll let you.

[Jonathan Walton]

I'll eavesdrop. Yeah.

[Taisha Eaton]

And we'd also like to do some follow ups on this couple if you find out anything else.

[Hannah Smith]

Seriously.

[Jonathan Walton]

You know, I regret, I regret I was just so, you know, writing this book. It took me three years and I would write in the morning. I wake up at 4am every day. So from 5am to 10am I would just write because that's when I'm the quickest, freshest, most creative. And then I go out with my other job. I just didn't have the bandwidth to like look into anything else because I got all these. But I can immediately, if someone is telling you different origins and you overhear them and they're such a good looking couple and you know, my story made no sense. They're retired. Like you're way too young to retire. But my friends accepted that I'm not a regular person anymore. I'm suspicious all the time and I want to be that way because the people I was with are like, yeah, so they retired. Like this is la. They could have a lot of money. They could have a trust fund, you don't know. Yeah, like, yeah, or they could be scammers, work in the room, you know, Occam's razor.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah. It's also so strange to like come in hot with like this portrayal of wealth yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

And that's the title of my next book, Coming in Hot.

[Taisha Eaton]

Coming in hot.

[Hannah Smith]

Well, this has just been so delightful. Thank you so much for joining us, Jonathan.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah, really, thank you.

[Jonathan Walton]

And, you know, I've been doing a lot of interviews lately, but this has been the most fun. You two are great. Thank you. And you, really. I'm not blowing smoke. You've asked the most relevant and insightful questions, and I appreciate that.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, thank you so much.

[Taisha Eaton]

Thank you. That's great to hear.

[Jonathan Walton]

You get it. This is your world. You deal with a lot of scams. So thank you. I think we're helping people.

[Taisha Eaton]

I hope so.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. I mean, we're going to be recommending this book to a lot of people. I already have people in my mind who I'm like, they should read this book. It could really help them in their lives.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah. Because so many people who are getting conned don't know it, and it's hard for others to point it out because they get defensive, especially if it's a relationship. But if you give them the book, let it. If they could reach the conclusion on their own, it's that much more powerful. Oh, totally. Like, they're waving all these flags, and I love them.

[Hannah Smith]

Well, awesome. It's been a delight. Thank you so much.

[Taisha Eaton]

Really appreciate you taking the time. We'll speak with you soon.

[Jonathan Walton]

Definitely. Thank you, guys.

[Hannah Smith]

Peisha, I think one of my favorite things that's ever been said on a knife podcast thus far is something Jonathan said in this interview. And he said, some people golf on the weekends. I hunt con artists.

[Taisha Eaton]

I love that. It's aspirational. He's a hero. I loved when he said, I'm a vegetarian and then talked about the murder fantasies. I mean, that was just such a wild thing to listen to someone talk about, but, like, so authentic to what he was feeling.

[Hannah Smith]

So authentic. And I think a lot of people would be afraid to talk about that. When he said that he understood what it was like to have the urge to murder someone, I was like, whoa.

[Taisha Eaton]

He said, I appreciate your honesty. Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

I mean, I do.

[Taisha Eaton]

That was such a great conversation and just such a perfect example of how you never think it's going to be you. You know, it's like you're moving through life. You have no choice but to live your life. Kind of trusting people.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Taisha Eaton]

That's how you build relationships. And then he finds himself at the center of this incredible scheme and proceeds to completely unravel it.

[Hannah Smith]

I know. Gosh, I really love his book. I appreciate it so much. It's not just like a platitude when we say anyone can be conned. Like, I really believe that. I do, and I don't know if I always believe that. I think that, you know, when I started interviewing people that had been victims of consciousness, it really changed my understanding of who is scammed and how completely. I think that there's still this prevalent idea in society that people that are victims of scams are somehow less intelligent. It just is not true. It's 100% not true. It could not be further from the truth. And one of the things that I think this book does so well, and Jonathan does so well, is that he lays out these red flags that are so clear and concise, which is so opposite oftentimes how someone feels when they're being conned. It's like they can feel very murky because so much of these scams that people pull off are these, like, calculated psychological manipulations over time that are really hard to kind of, like, pin down in your life, especially when you're reeling from being conned. And so really, it's like, who can be conned? Humans. Like, the people that are susceptible to being conned are people that are human.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah, everyone. I mean, I think that you meet your neighbor because you want to get access to an amenity you pay for at your building that is as innocuous as any other way of meeting anyone. And yet she set her sights on him.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Taisha Eaton]

And stole so much.

[Hannah Smith]

And, like, four years later, invested four years.

[Taisha Eaton]

Right. That's the other piece of this. It's like there's always that analogy, like the boiling frog or something like that.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, yeah, the frog in the slowly boiling pot.

[Taisha Eaton]

Right. That is a telltale sign now that we've seen. I mean, I guess it's not even a sign because it happens so slowly. But, yeah, con artists know what they're doing.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. What a delight to talk with Jonathan. And so, one thing, I don't think we talked about this in the episode, but Jonathan has also covered Peggy Fulford. So we did a season on Peggy Fulford for the opportunist back in 2022. She was the corrupt money manager who stole money from her clients, many of whom were professional athletes, including Dennis Rodman and Ricky Williams. And I actually interviewed Peggy over a video call while she was in prison. Jonathan let us know she's out of prison now. I had not kept up with that, but Jonathan said he referenced that video call in his coverage of Peggy on Queen of the Conversation. So that was sort of Fun. We discussed that before we hit record, but it was such a pleasure to talk with someone who also has spent so much time, you know, researching and investigating con artists.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, he's very enthusiastic about his work, and I love that. I don't think this makes it into the cut of the interview, but Jonathan talked about something that I think is so important, which is jury duty. He talked about how before going through this and having to testify against Mayor Smith for all the money that she'd stolen, how he had always just tried to get out of jury duty. And then when he was on this side of it, where he wanted justice, how important it felt to him and how important it was that these jurors, you know, take that responsibility really seriously and sort of see it as this duty and try to find the right outcome. And I've thought a lot about that since he said it, because, yeah, I, too, have hoped to never be called for jury duty. And when I have been, I've been very relieved not to be chosen. And, look, there are some difficult things with jury duty, like time away from work and whatnot. But, yeah, I think next time, if I have the opportunity to do it, I'll probably have a different attitude.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, I love that. I don't know how I miss that, because I'm right there on board. I actually have wanted to be called for jury duty. It's, like, my dream. I feel like we're not going to get picked. No, I'm not. I'm not gonna be picked. I was called last year, and I was thrilled, and I was like, how do I downplay what I do for my job? Because I feel like they're gonna be like, no, you read court documents all the time. You're not. No, no, no. But I just. I think it's cool. I think it's cool that we get to be part of a jury. As someone who loves, like, investigating cases, I would love to sit in a jury box and be like, okay, what's going on? What's the evidence? But I'm totally romanticizing it because I've never done it. And I know that it is a huge time commitment. Often it is a public service. But I do think that Jonathan's right, and I appreciate that he said that because, you know, if you find yourself needing a jury for some reason, like, you don't want someone falling asleep in the jury box. You want people who are paying attention and who are going to, like, do their best.

[Taisha Eaton]

Right. Who see the job as important.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Taisha Eaton]

Yeah. I've thought a lot about that. Jonathan's book Anatomy of a Con Artist is out now and I highly recommend it. It was such a great read. It was really enthralling. So much amazing storytelling along with really digestible information about con artists, how they operate and how to spot the red flags before it's too late.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it was such a well written book. And you know, if you think that there's someone in your life who's being scammed, it's a great holiday present for them for a birthday gift. You know, lean into that passive aggressive.

[Taisha Eaton]

Behavior might soften the blow rather than just hey listen, I think that you're being taken for a ride.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, that's our episode.

[Taisha Eaton]

Thanks for listening. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram henifepodcast or blueskyenife.

[Hannah Smith]

Podcast this has been an exactly right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah.

[Taisha Eaton]

Smith and me, Taisha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breifel and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[Taisha Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Taisha Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

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