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- [00:02]
Patia Eaton
This is exactly right.
- [00:07]
Public Ad Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screen thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors, llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures there's a difference
- [01:08]
Redfin Ad Announcer
between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to make up that difference and close the gap between finding and owning the home for you. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, so when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it comes to making an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more focus on the one you'll call home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses and get started@redfin.com own the dream
- [01:38]
Pets Best Ad Announcer
protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best Plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Co. Or Independence American Insurance Co. For terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Co. Or Ms. Transverse Insurance Co. And administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyhold and illness plans. Tests Age 0 to 10 this story
- [02:09]
Hannah Smith
contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
- [02:13]
Patia Eaton
The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media
- [02:24]
Chancey Lewis
I suddenly made almost $100,000. I'm watching it happen right there in front of me on the screen and I'm going, is that how people get rich?
- [02:50]
Hannah Smith
Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.
- [02:52]
Patia Eaton
I'm Patia Eaton. This week we're speaking with Chancey Lewis, a retired school teacher in Colorado who, while grieving the loss of his wife, formed an unlikely friendship with a stranger. And soon he was pulled into a complex scheme.
- [03:06]
Hannah Smith
But during our conversation, something unexpected happened. We began to realize that it might not be over and actually there might be another scheme already in motion. This was happening as Patia and I were wrapping up the interview, and then we basically attempted to intervene in real time.
- [03:24]
Patia Eaton
Let's get into it.
- [03:28]
Hannah Smith
Hi, Chancey. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [03:31]
Chancey Lewis
Certainly, yeah.
- [03:32]
Patia Eaton
Would you mind starting off just introducing yourself, however you're comfortable with us introducing you on the podcast.
- [03:40]
Chancey Lewis
Sure. My name is Chancey Lewis. I'm a retired school teacher, live in Colorado Springs. Recent widower.
- [03:50]
Patia Eaton
What can you tell us about Sandy? How did you two meet?
- [03:55]
Chancey Lewis
Met Sandy in Sunday school. And the way she tells the story, I almost fell out of a chair when she walked in the door. We got married in six months after that, and it stayed there 40 years. So she had adventurous spirit and she loved taking road trips where we didn't really have a destination. There were some times when it started off going to the next town for a farmer's market and ended up in Houston. She was also a fantastic cook. She had approximately 90 cookbooks in her collection, and we, in fact, gave those away to whomever wanted them when we had a memorial service for her back in June. Sandy taught special education, and she always took the toughest kids that people said, you can't teach them anything. And she would find a way. So she was spectacular woman.
- [04:54]
Patia Eaton
Sandy passed away on March 12, 2025, after battling a prolonged illness. She and Chancey had been married for over 40 years.
- [05:04]
Chancey Lewis
She was in and out of the hospital about nine times, all related to problems with diabetes, blood pressure, kidney function, liver function. It was basically, things were rough and we were going through a really tough time because she was feeling so poorly. And I was trying to continue to work as a substitute teacher, which made me away from home for long periods of time during the day. And in fact, it was one of those days when I was off substitute teaching that Sandy had arranged to finally be able to get in to see a nephrologist, the kidney doctor here in town. And she had been trying for months to get in to see this person. And so finally we had an appointment, and I couldn't take her because I had a job and we needed the income, and so a friend of ours decided she would come by and pick her up and take her to the doctor. And then I got the phone call at school that she had found my wife dead.
- [06:17]
Patia Eaton
Earlier that morning, before leaving for work, Chancey told Sandy he loved her and he hoped her appointment went well. And just a few hours later, he learned that she had died. Their home in Colorado once filled with the smells of whatever Sandy was cooking that night. It was emptier now. For the last year, Chancey had been everything. Sandy's caretaker and their sole provider, carrying a weight that would take a toll on anyone. And now, in an instant, he was plunged into grief.
- [06:47]
Chancey Lewis
Except for the two dogs that I had at the time, I didn't have a real reason to come home. I basically, I made it through my workday. I'd get something to eat. Then the end of the evening, there was nothing. So television became a crutch. And let me tell you, you get real fast where, you know everything's going to happen. In every drama that they have. My attitude just got really bad. There were a couple of times when, you know, it was easier to get a slug of bourbon than it was to worry about whether I enjoyed anything. And I used to read so voraciously that Sandy would wonder if my pulse was moving. But I went for about three months where I didn't finish a single novel. I even went into psychological therapy that was provided by Medicare with a psychologist, and we had several sessions together. The Medicare would only pay for one session a month.
- [07:54]
Patia Eaton
For a few months after Sandy's death, Chancey continued teaching, but the days were long and exhausting. Coming home at the end of each day brought relief, but it also brought silence. Sandy had been the social one, and without her, it was usually just Chancey and the dogs. Then one night In August of 2025, Chancey got a text from an unknown number.
- [08:17]
Chancey Lewis
I was going through my text messages, and there was a number I phone number I didn't recognize. And the person on the other end said, hi, Dan. And I texted back and says, I think you got the wrong number. There's no Dan here, and good luck with your search. A couple of days later, she texted back and said, who is this? And, you know, part of my background as a teacher meant you talk to anybody who needed it. So it was easy to start, especially when I was typing, to just get conversational. And next thing I know, she suggests that we move over to WhatsApp because it had better encryption. So it got started getting back and Forth and generalities and where you from? I found out she was originally from China, and according to her, her dad had been an economic advisor with the government and was now in banking. And her mother was Italian and had passed away a few years earlier. So it sounded like, you know, an online friendship.
- [09:34]
Hannah Smith
What did she say her name was?
- [09:36]
Chancey Lewis
Isabella Maria Chin. You know, so it was anecdotal, the sort of things that you do to get to know somebody. And sometimes it would go on for just a few exchanges during the day, and other times it started getting where it was much longer. You know, like we just chat through the evening.
- [09:55]
Hannah Smith
Where did she say she was living at the time?
- [09:58]
Chancey Lewis
Seattle.
- [09:59]
Hannah Smith
Okay. And then how old was she?
- [10:02]
Chancey Lewis
35. So I just was going with the flow. Then one of the things I started noticing for a couple of days or maybe longer was that sometimes what would creep into her responses would be the word dear D E A R. She was using it quite a bit. And I said, pardon me, but, you know, some of this stuff is sounding like you're flirting with me. And she said, well, I think we've got something to talk about. I said, yeah, but you realize I'm 75, right? And she says, it's just a number. And she sent pictures. We had a little brief video exchange one evening. All that on WhatsApp.
- [10:50]
Hannah Smith
What language was she speaking in your video call?
- [10:54]
Chancey Lewis
It was English. Yeah, she was fluent in English. And then she told me the story about how she had attended not only university in China, but she'd also gone to. To London to go to a finance school. And she told me that she owned a string of shops that provided cosmetic health care. In other words, a lot of Botox and liposuction or whatever they do. Her graduate work was in finance, and according to her anecdotes, that sounded like something that she would have done because her dad was involved in finance.
- [11:34]
Patia Eaton
And I'm curious, you know, she sort of says, yes, I am flirting with you. I am interested. Were you reciprocating that? Did you feel like, yeah, okay, I'm interested in this person too, or, you know, how did that feel for you? And did you two ever make plans to meet in person?
- [11:53]
Chancey Lewis
At first I was thinking, oh, come on, this is not going to go anywhere. This is too ridiculous. But after a while, I mean, the affection felt good. She said, you ought to come out to Seattle and let me show you this town and we'll go to some good restaurants. And I said, you know, well, you remember I was retired schoolteacher. We don't do that kind of stuff much.
- [12:20]
Patia Eaton
Chancey had retired, and between his modest pension and Social Security, he was able to cover all of his expenses. But taking an expensive trip, that was out of the question. Still, it felt good to connect with someone new.
- [12:35]
Hannah Smith
Well, it makes sense that having just lost your wife, to have someone to talk to, to have someone to engage with regularly, and someone who's interesting has had this interesting life, and that's a very human thing, you know, for anyone to want to have that kind of connection. And it sounds like she was indicating, oh, come out to Seattle. And maybe you were saying, well, yeah, but I'm not. I'm retired, so I'm not going to go out there and blow a bunch of money. And she kind of blew that off and was like, well, that's fine, because I have more than enough money. Was that sort of the vibe?
- [13:09]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah, yeah, I don't need your money. It went on like that for a while before she ever got around to suggesting that. If you'd like me to show you how I did this, I can do that. We're not talking about a few hours here. We're talking about. She was investing a lot of attention. And so that's kind of made me feel like, okay, if she were really a scammer, she wouldn't be doing this.
- [13:38]
Hannah Smith
How long do you think? And it's okay if you don't know exactly, but you were chatting regularly for how long? Until she started mentioning the financial investment.
- [13:50]
Chancey Lewis
Oh, probably two or three weeks.
- [13:53]
Hannah Smith
And then how did she broach that subject? Can you kind of walk us through that?
- [13:58]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah, I mean, it was basically. Oh, I probably said something really advantageous like, well, you know, I probably ought to look into something like that. She said, well, you know, if you're ever interested, I can show you how this works. So she was really subtle about it, and the idea started to grow on me that I said, well, you know, I still don't have any money. And she says, well, do you have anything? And at the time, I was sitting on a couple of thousand dollars in savings account. I said, well, I could put a. Put, you know, a thousand dollars down. And she says, well, I'll get you started.
- [14:38]
Hannah Smith
What was her proposition? You know, was she going to send you what you should invest in? Did she say that she had her own fund? What was the story she was giving you?
- [14:52]
Chancey Lewis
Well, she said, well, first thing you got to do is you need to go and popular wallet out There is for crypto.com, and it's connected to Coinbase
- [15:05]
Patia Eaton
okay, here's what Hannah and I were able to piece together about the instructions that Isabella gave Chancey when it came to investing his $1,000. First, she asked Chancey to create a digital wallet through Coinbase. Coinbase is a well known online platform for buying, selling, transferring, and storing digital currency. So Chancey went ahead and converted his $1,000 into cryptocurrency on Coinbase. And up to this point, everything was legitimate. Next, Isabella told Chancey that she specialized in something called arbitrage trading, a strategy that takes advantage of price differences for the same asset across different markets. It's not unique to crypto. It sounded sophisticated, plausible. Then Isabella gave Chancey her next instruction. She told Chancey to transfer his cryptocurrency from Coinbase to a separate website. He recalls the name of this website as arbitragefree.com at no point during this process did Chancey hand over his login information or, or give Isabella any direct access to his accounts.
- [16:19]
Chancey Lewis
And it felt very legitimate. She said, now this is the platform that I use to make a couple of million. And it worked pretty smoothly. The deal was for $1,000. That put me in the first position. And arbitragefree.com then allowed me to make three trades. I pulled in more than 10% return on my investment, or at least that's what the, you know, that's what the scorecard was showing. Then came the news that, oh, you exhausted, that they won't let you go any further because you need to go to the next level. Well, the next level was 5,000, and then after that was 50,000.
- [17:05]
Patia Eaton
And so you're living off of what, a pension, as this is happening.
- [17:10]
Chancey Lewis
And Social Security.
- [17:11]
Patia Eaton
And Social Security. So your savings account, you said you had a few thousand dollars in it, but you are getting money every month that you're able to live off of.
- [17:21]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah.
- [17:22]
Patia Eaton
So when you log into your account and you see on the screen these big returns, you want to continue investing, but then you're also being told to get to this, quote, next level, and you need a certain amount of money that you don't have. And so what is your next step? How do you, how do you get there?
- [17:43]
Chancey Lewis
I rated my retirement account for 44,000. That brought me to 50,000 with what I'd earned otherwise. Then when the arbitrage free allowed me to make five trades in that mode, and suddenly, thanks to the fact that she had showed me how to engage with what she said was herself and a group of colleagues from the United Kingdom Finance college she had attended and her brother, who was in finance in London. She said, we're going to make a trade. Would you like to be in on it? And I said, of course. And so I posted my trade following the instructions that she gave me. And in a five minute trade, I suddenly made almost $100,000. I'm watching it happen right there in front of me on the screen and I'm going, is that how these guys did it? Is that how people get rich?
- [18:51]
Patia Eaton
Chancey couldn't believe his luck. His retirement had paid the bills, but certainly didn't offer any flourishes beyond the necessities. And suddenly the world was opening up to him. Maybe he could spend his retirement traveling with this kind of money. The possibilities really seemed endless. But there was one problem. He didn't know how to withdraw the money from arbitragefree.com, he had to ask Isabella to help him with it each time.
- [19:18]
Chancey Lewis
Well, I asked her if I can pull some money out and start putting money back into my retirement account. And she says, well, sure, but we're about to approach the next level. And the next level was 100,000.
- [19:32]
Patia Eaton
So this person then says, you need to actually put in 100,000 to reach the next level.
- [19:39]
Chancey Lewis
It wasn't that much because I had so much in the account as a result of the first investments. But by this time the total percentage of investment had reached more than 80% of the money that I had put in had been essentially doubled.
- [19:58]
Patia Eaton
But when you say I want to take money out and put some back into my savings in my retirement, she says, okay, but if you add this much more, you can unlock the next level of trading.
- [20:11]
Chancey Lewis
That's correct.
- [20:11]
Patia Eaton
Okay, yeah.
- [20:12]
Chancey Lewis
And in fact, I did two or three withdrawals just to cover things that I had to cover, which made it feel even more legitimate.
- [20:21]
Patia Eaton
How much did you withdraw that you had put in there?
- [20:25]
Chancey Lewis
About $2,500. And I did need, in order to get to the next level, I needed to keep my money working. And that was where I got caught up in the world. Because, I mean, suddenly it wasn't long before I had committed myself to take out a second mortgage on the house.
- [20:51]
Public Ad Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable investment index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.
- [21:55]
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- [22:54]
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- [23:59]
Patia Eaton
In August of 2025, just a few months after his wife of 40 years passed away, Chancey Lewis struck up a friendship with a stranger over text message. Within a few short months, she'd drawn him into what seemed like an incredible investment opportunity. The kind of money that would change Chancey's life. And when Chancey logged into his account on arbitragefree.com, it looked like he was earning massive returns. So he kept investing. He took out a second mortgage on his home, and then he secured a hefty bank loan.
- [24:35]
Chancey Lewis
Eventually, it got to the point where my investment had reached about $160,000. But the return showed that, in fact, I copied down what it said at one point, that I had earned more than $240,000 from my $160,000 investment.
- [25:02]
Patia Eaton
Yeah. And I'm wondering, when you took out either of those loans, either the second mortgage or the loan, did anyone at the bank ask for financial records where you referred back to this site?
- [25:15]
Chancey Lewis
Oh, no, they just basically they wanted to know how much was I pulling in from my pension and my Social Security. And they plugged it into an algorithm and they said, sure, we can let you have it. And I had to sign the papers. It was so easy.
- [25:32]
Patia Eaton
Did you have to tell them what it was for? Did they ask why you were taking out loans? Yeah.
- [25:37]
Chancey Lewis
And I lied. I said, oh, I'm trying to get a business started. Another time I said, well, there's things that need to be done to the house. It's 25 years old and I need to make some investment in my property.
- [25:49]
Patia Eaton
I'm wondering why you lied.
- [25:52]
Chancey Lewis
I don't usually. Mostly because I didn't respect. I've always felt like, you know, people who had control of money thought it was not my right. In 75, I kind of feel like I earned the right to make all my own decisions about my money.
- [26:11]
Patia Eaton
By the time he'd taken out a second loan, Chancey had already been warned multiple times that he was likely being scammed. First he was warned by a financial institution, and then he was warned by two different crypto trading platforms. So when he went to make a large withdrawal from his retirement account. He anticipated he might get that same reaction, which is exactly what ended up happening.
- [26:37]
Chancey Lewis
The people I had hired to supervise my retirement account, who are with Charles Schwab, tried to talk me out of it when I made my first wire transfer from my bank. The transfer was held up until I talked to two different levels of people in the bank's fraud department. They tried to tell me, you know, are you sure? And then by the time I made the second or third attempt to transfer money, Coinbase held up my transfer for nine days. So when Coinbase got to be so obstreperous, I moved over to Kraken. Well, Kraken made one transfer and then the next one. They just sat on it for two weeks and didn't want to turn it loose.
- [27:31]
Hannah Smith
Oh, yeah. I was going to ask what was the reason from Coinbase and from Kraken for pausing this transfer.
- [27:40]
Chancey Lewis
Specifically, we think this money may be directed as a scam. Take our little course on how to spot a scam, just to follow up
- [27:49]
Hannah Smith
on that, because I'm sure it's hard to think back about now, like, okay, Charles Schwab, people tried to warn you. And then both the Coinbase and Kraken said, this is a scam. It's interesting to think about how we build trust and who we trust, because for whatever reason, it does seem like you had more trust in Isabella at this point, to the point where these institutions were trying to warn you. But I'm curious why you think they were less trustworthy to you than she was.
- [28:27]
Chancey Lewis
I guess because I thought, well, I've looked them up. I have searched the Internet to try and find something else about this person.
- [28:39]
Hannah Smith
Had she said anything to you, like, don't trust your bank when they flag this? Did she say anything directly like that, or no?
- [28:47]
Chancey Lewis
Oh, yeah, yeah. She said, you know, they don't understand, or they will try to talk you out of it because you don't have a background in technology that's attached to finance. So they are probably going to think that you don't know what you're doing. Well, that's like waving a jerky strip in front of a hungry dog. What do you mean, of course I know what I'm doing.
- [29:09]
Patia Eaton
A personal connection can be so powerful. We often trust people more than faceless institutions. And Isabella had convinced Chansey that she was a wealthy business owner made even wealthier by savvy investments. The friendship was new, but she'd endeared herself to him. So when Isabella told Chansy that big institutions didn't have his best interest at heart and maybe even looked down on him because he wasn't some finance hotshot, but a retired teacher. Chancey believed her. But even beyond what Chancey was feeling, he was also seeing evidence of his investment growing right before his eyes. On arbitragefree.com, the website that Isabella had directed him to, Chancey gathered all his assets, plus loans to the tune of $160,000 and funneled it all onto this website. And according to what he sees on the screen, his money has doubled.
- [30:08]
Chancey Lewis
I get a notice that I owe taxes, income taxes, and until I pay the taxes, my account is frozen. Sitting in my account is $363,000, according to their scorecard. You know, that's what they're showing. And I said, well, take the money out of the account. Let's get it paid. No, that's not the way it works. You have to send the money in from outside. And of course, guess what? The government was shut down. So there was nobody I could even turn to at IRS and say, is this the way you do it? You know, my account is frozen. What choice do I have? They're demanding $81,000 in taxes, and they've got all down to the perfect cent. So I'm stuck there, and I can't, you know, I can't come up with any more money that I can think of. And so I'm holding on and holding on, and I'm trying all kinds of different ways to get around that, and nothing seems to be working. And I'm getting more and more anxious, and I don't have anybody I can turn to to tell me if it's all accurate or not. So I sell. I sell a collection of jewelry that I've made over the period of the lifetime with some gold jewelry during the height of the gold boom, and managed to walk away with $12,000. But that wasn't enough. And I told my friend that I just can't do it. I don't have any resources for $81,000. She says, well, deposit the 12, and I'll send some out of my account. Well, that made sense, because after all, she was supposed to be rich. She could loan that to me, and then as soon as my money's released, I can turn right around and pay it back. She vanished. And that was October 30th.
- [32:14]
Hannah Smith
She vanished, meaning suddenly you can't get a hold of her.
- [32:17]
Chancey Lewis
Ghosted.
- [32:18]
Hannah Smith
But. And still, the situation when you go to arbitragefree.com was that your account was frozen.
- [32:24]
Chancey Lewis
One day the site doesn't work. Just doesn't work.
- [32:30]
Hannah Smith
When you went to the site and it didn't work, what was going through your head?
- [32:36]
Chancey Lewis
Oh, I've been. I've been taken. I've been taken. I knew it. I used an address that's called abuse at. And then it had arbitragefree.com. so it's an email address that was supposed to be to report abuse complaints. So I went to that and reported this whole affair. They said, if you feel like you've been violated, contact your local police department. Yeah, right. International scammers. And I'm supposed to contact Colorado Springs Police Department. The people I know there are pretty good people, but they're not cyber whiz. No. Nobody has a way to attack this problem today.
- [33:31]
Patia Eaton
If you go to arbitragefree.com, you'll find the domain is for sale. This suggests that it was never a real trading platform at all. Instead, it was likely a front used to convince people like Chansey to move their cryptocurrency into a system controlled by a scammer or a group of scammers. Once that money was transferred, it became nearly impossible to recover or even trace. The illusion of profits kept the scheme alive until Chansey ran out of money. And then just like that, the site vanished along with the people behind it. When you realized I've been defrauded, like they've taken my money. This is not real. Did you tell anyone in your life?
- [34:18]
Chancey Lewis
No, not for months.
- [34:22]
Patia Eaton
And why not?
- [34:23]
Chancey Lewis
Well, I'm supposed to be a smart guy. I've got one master's degree and most of another one I read all the time, throw out any topic in any conversation, and I know somehow to engage with it. And so I didn't want to risk looking foolish to my friends who does, you know?
- [34:48]
Patia Eaton
October 30th, you realize this was a scam, but you've taken out loans. And what are your financial obligations to these loans every month? What are you owing on these loans?
- [35:03]
Chancey Lewis
Let's see. One of them, I have to make a payment of 700 and some change. Another one is 600 and some change. Another one is 400 and some change. So by the time I get through with that, that's almost my entire pension and Social Security. And out of that, I still have to pay. I'm still paying on this house at the rate of just over $1,000 a month.
- [35:30]
Patia Eaton
That's a lot of money.
- [35:32]
Chancey Lewis
So basically, I am skinning by the freezers are emptying out last night's Dinner was a soup that my wife had made when she was feeling good and had been in the freezer.
- [35:46]
Hannah Smith
So, needless to say, this has put you in a difficult financial position.
- [35:52]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah. You know, and it tears my gut up. The other Friday night, I couldn't make myself go to sleep. I ended up, you know, zoning out in front of the television until almost 5 o' clock in the morning. And then the next morning I got up and texted some friends that wanted me to come to a game day where there would be, you know, food and fellowship and all the other good stuff that senior people don't tend to get enough of. And which I have a tendency to avoid on days when I'm feeling the funk. And so I spend most of Saturday in my phone trying to figure out if I could change anything.
- [36:36]
Hannah Smith
I'm curious if you. I mean, I totally understand that. The reality is the local police department probably can't do anything, but I am curious if you made any reports to law enforcement about the scam or contacted anyone?
- [36:50]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah, I. I filled out the complaint that's online for Colorado Springs Police Department.
- [36:58]
Hannah Smith
Did anyone get back to you?
- [37:00]
Chancey Lewis
No.
- [37:01]
Patia Eaton
You have still tried to find a way to get some of this money back? Can you talk to us about that?
- [37:12]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [37:13]
Chancey Lewis
And I know the first thing that's going to happen is it's going to sound like it's a scam.
- [37:19]
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- [39:57]
Patia Eaton
This was a really difficult part of our conversation with Chancey. Hannah and I are often speaking to someone about a difficult time in their life, but it's usually something that is more or less behind them, something they're reflecting on. And then we realized that this might not be the case with Chansey, that this was actually ongoing. Chancey had already told us about Isabella, who had ghosted him after stealing his retirement savings and tens of thousands more money that Chansey was spending still on the hook for to the banks that he'd taken out loans from. But then he mentioned that he was attempting to recover this money and he warned us it's going to sound like a scam. Chancey was still in the thick of it.
- [40:41]
Chancey Lewis
A person contacted me on WhatsApp and said, have you been scammed? And I looked her up and so forth and she was just a regular user of WhatsApp. And I said yes, I have. She says, well, your name came up and she showed me a list that was apparently pulled from the Dark Web that listed me amongst other victims. Not only that, this lady's name was on that list, my name was on the list. And contact information. And that's why she got in touch with me, was because she found out I had a WhatsApp connection, and she wanted to know if I'd been scammed. She says, well, we've got a group that we're putting together, and we have made contact with a cybersecurity person. But I. We can't say anything about who this person is because it would be physically dangerous.
- [41:44]
Patia Eaton
And when you say you went about looking her up, how did you look her up?
- [41:49]
Chancey Lewis
Well, WhatsApp will give you a start. And then I was able to track backwards from that to her Facebook page, and then I was able to track backward from that to her email.
- [41:59]
Hannah Smith
Can I ask why she uses WhatsApp?
- [42:03]
Chancey Lewis
Well, WhatsApp is a pretty good program. I mean, Telegram, both of those are so much faster than Google Messages or even meta messages. They both supposedly have this super encryption on them so that nobody can see what you're doing except the person that you see it.
- [42:27]
Hannah Smith
Right. Which, like, you know, is great if you're a journalist or if you're messaging from another country, for example. Like, I message people in other countries on WhatsApp. And so I know a lot of people that use WhatsApp. But, you know, it's interesting that the encryption goes both ways, Right. Like, it's secure, but also it's actually really impossible to track someone down.
- [42:49]
Chancey Lewis
That's true.
- [42:50]
Hannah Smith
And verify who they are because of the encryption. So the catch 22 with WhatsApp is that the person is untraceable. So if this lady goes off the map or ghosts you, there's no way to find her.
- [43:04]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah, that's true.
- [43:05]
Hannah Smith
And I'm wondering why she would not feel comfortable, or if she would feel comfortable messaging you over Gmail or over just text messaging, why that would be an issue.
- [43:19]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah, I don't know. I got the opinion that she is even less technologically sophisticated than I'm not.
- [43:32]
Patia Eaton
What do you make of someone who's maybe not super tech savvy taking the time to download an app to correspond with people on and reaching out to people that, like sort of networking online with people whose name was pulled off
- [43:47]
Hannah Smith
the Dark Web or even understanding how to access the Dark Web?
- [43:52]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah, well, she said she admitted she did not pull it. She did not pull the report she shared. I didn't ask her enough questions. To be able to say where she got it from.
- [44:03]
Patia Eaton
So she reaches out and she says, I found your name on the Dark Web. Or someone has found it and sent it to me. You have been scammed. I too have been scammed. And I know a group of people and we're working with someone who can help us, but I can't tell you who he is because it's dangerous.
- [44:20]
Chancey Lewis
Right.
- [44:20]
Patia Eaton
And Hannah and I have no judgment about your headspace or any of that. It's more a question of you've already been sort of duped by this last person. And it sounds strange, right? Like I'm reaching out to you again. A total stranger reaching out with like this intention of helping you. And we're working with someone whose name you can't know. Like, there's just a lot of sort of odd, odd things about this. Why do you think that it sounds like that hasn't given you a lot of pause?
- [44:55]
Chancey Lewis
The thing that I'm seeing because the more I read about it and everything, law enforcement doesn't know how to handle it. They don't have any clue what it's going to take to stop this kind of theft. If people are robbing houses or, you know, burglarizing houses, they tell you to put bars on the window, but nobody has a clue about what to do about catching cyber criminals. The number of cyber criminals who actually get put into jail is very small.
- [45:32]
Patia Eaton
So this person reaches out to you on WhatsApp and says, you've been scammed and we've been scammed and we know someone who can help, but they're dangerous. You can't know their real name.
- [45:42]
Chancey Lewis
No, they're not dangerous. They are in danger.
- [45:45]
Patia Eaton
They are in danger. Okay. They're in danger. Can you tell us about the person that they're talking about, the nickname that they go by and how they're going to get people's money back?
- [45:56]
Chancey Lewis
Actually, there's no name attached. There is a phone number, which of course, in order to subscribe to WhatsApp, you have to have instead the icon that's attached to that phone number looks a little bit like a, let's say a 20 something gamer or one of those people that stereotypes will tell us is probably going to be involved in computers.
- [46:23]
Patia Eaton
That's what I'm trying to figure out is you have been told that this person has gotten money back from people who were scammed the same way that you were. That is what they have told you. But Isabella told you a lot of things that probably weren't true. And you're taking people that you meet on WhatsApp at their word. And that, to me, is concerning because it's a little bit of the if it's too good to be true, then maybe it is. It doesn't pass the smell test for me. But one of the reasons I say that is that these scammers are professionals at what they do, and they're not usually working alone. And so I think one possibility is that there's multiple departments within an organization of people who are scamming people online. And they say, okay, we've scammed this person. Now we're going to pass them to you, and you're going to come in and say, were you scammed? I can help. And I don't think that's uncommon, that they sort of pass people off to different areas of their network. And it's something I think you should be really cautious about. As we spoke with Chancey, we tried to understand both the mechanics of what this person was telling him on WhatsApp and at the same time, gently warn him that it did not sound legitimate to us.
- [47:55]
Hannah Smith
And so what is the structure here as far as what money you're putting in?
- [48:00]
Chancey Lewis
He gets paid entirely on what he recovers, and it's only 8%.
- [48:05]
Hannah Smith
So has he recovered your money? Is that why you've given money?
- [48:10]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah, he has recovered $91,000 so far. Now, we can't move it back to my bank until he finishes the rest of it, because, remember, it's the positioning that lets you be able to reach out and go to the next level.
- [48:24]
Hannah Smith
So he's recovering your money not by going after the scammers, but by investing money?
- [48:30]
Chancey Lewis
No, no, no, no, no. That's the dangerous part. He's actually going in through the back door of the scammer's own programs. That's his expertise, is he slips in through the back door and pulls the data that looks like my money and has my label on it. And when he finishes, he will have pulled back the money that I invested plus the money that was put out there on that bogus income tax scam.
- [49:03]
Hannah Smith
So so far, he's recovered $91,000. You can't access this money, but have you paid an 8% fee to him?
- [49:11]
Chancey Lewis
No, he has received nothing.
- [49:13]
Hannah Smith
And do you have to pay anything until he gets all your money back to you?
- [49:17]
Chancey Lewis
Correct.
- [49:19]
Hannah Smith
What platform is this all happening on?
- [49:21]
Chancey Lewis
This platform is happening on cryptohack.com cryptohack.com.
- [49:29]
Patia Eaton
well, I just went to cryptohack.com and it's like has a GoDaddy link at the top.
- [49:38]
Chancey Lewis
It's crypto hack.
- [49:40]
Patia Eaton
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't to me.
- [49:44]
Chancey Lewis
How'd you spell hack?
- [49:46]
Patia Eaton
H A, C, K. Take the C out. Okay, it's coming up.
- [49:53]
Hannah Smith
Potential phishing scam risk.
- [49:57]
Patia Eaton
As you can probably tell, Hannah and I are pretty convinced that this is another scam. And that's what we told Chansey. And we put it as kindly and as plainly as we could. In moments he seemed to believe us, but in others, he tried to explain, to rationalize, and I get it. The promise of a vigilante computer whiz, however strange, offers hope. And what is he supposed to do? He's on the verge of losing everything and no one can help.
- [50:26]
Hannah Smith
I think the thing that makes me nervous when I hear about people reaching out to you again on WhatsApp, especially with sort of coded language like they could be in trouble or it could be dangerous. That sounds like another scam to me, and maybe it's not, but I would hate to see you get scammed again.
- [50:45]
Chancey Lewis
But what would a person say? What script would a person be able to follow that doesn't sound like scam if it was legitimate.
- [50:55]
Hannah Smith
If they're legitimate, they should be traceable. If it's a person who is a technological genius is able to find money that's been scammed, they should be able to have a website. You should be able to call them, you should be able to know the name of their business.
- [51:14]
Chancey Lewis
All sounds logical.
- [51:15]
Hannah Smith
If there's ever a scenario in which they ask you to put in any money down before seeing money back, that is not going to be true. And you could say, well, what if it's real? But the thing is, what if it's not? If it's not real, what would you do?
- [51:34]
Chancey Lewis
My dad was a minister for all the time I was growing up. He later did other things, but he never quit being a minister. Do you understand what I'm saying? However, the whole premise of his whole livelihood and his whole philosophy of the world was based on the idea of faith. You know, it's to the place where it would almost be more comfortable to just coil up into the corner and just get, you know. And I look out at the folks who are just a few blocks away from here. They sleep on the bench that's up against the fence, but it's out of the north wind. And if I don't keep fighting, what do I do? Where I'm at right now, the next step is going to probably be bankruptcy.
- [52:31]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, I know we've Sort of been giving some pushback to you. I just want to be clear that we only say that because we want the best for you. And I'm so sorry that this happened to you, and I think it's happening to more and more people. And it doesn't mean that you're a fool or whatever you said earlier, because.
- [52:50]
Chancey Lewis
Oh, I'm not just a fool. I'm a damn fool.
- [52:53]
Hannah Smith
Well, these operations have become so sophisticated.
- [52:59]
Patia Eaton
Truly.
- [53:00]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah. And ubiquitous. It's all over the place.
- [53:05]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. And as we've talked about, there's not currently. I think there will be in the future, our law enforcement agencies are going to have to catch up to this at some point. We are going to have to figure out how to combat this. But the technology has advanced and the scammers have advanced so much faster than our institutions have, and they don't know what to do.
- [53:28]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah.
- [53:29]
Hannah Smith
And I hope that you go to the barbecues and see people. And I know what it's like to feel depressed and want to hold yourself up inside, but it always, I find, helps when I go and connect with people in real life.
- [53:44]
Patia Eaton
I really appreciate your time and vulnerability today, and I'm so sorry for what you're going through.
- [53:52]
Chancey Lewis
Oh, survive long enough, you get to learn everything.
- [53:56]
Hannah Smith
Well, thank you so much for speaking with us, Chancey.
- [54:00]
Patia Eaton
We really appreciate it.
- [54:06]
Hannah Smith
What an interview. Patia.
- [54:08]
Patia Eaton
We've never. And I mean, we must have done hundreds of interviews together at that point. Never anything like that.
- [54:16]
Hannah Smith
No. It was really interesting to try to navigate and get information, but also, I think both of us, Our alarm bells were going off as we heard about this new attempt to get his money back with another stranger. I think both of us were very concerned and are concerned so still that that is a scam.
- [54:43]
Patia Eaton
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I first came across Chansey's story, I was under the impression that he was fully aware that he had been scammed and was now trying to, you know, kind of let people know on. I actually found Chancey on Facebook that he was in financial turmoil, and I reached out to him to try to find out how it happened.
- [55:08]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [55:09]
Patia Eaton
It was a surprise to learn that his attempt to recover money was happening. And then we had to address it.
- [55:18]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. And so tricky.
- [55:19]
Patia Eaton
Yeah. I thought he handled it really well.
- [55:23]
Hannah Smith
He did. What an awkward thing to hear and a tough conversation to have, and he was really receptive. And it's interesting because he was really. When we were talking about the first scam, I think we probably cut a bunch of these out of the episode. But he said a lot of self deprecating things about how dumb he was and all that stuff. And it was just like, we tried to really emphasize to him that that's not true and that this happens to a lot of people. It's happening more and more. So it's clear that he felt really bad about it, obviously. And it has put him in a terrible financial position that no one wants to be when they're retired. I mean, it's just horrible. And so I don't know if there's some level of desperation of like, no one is available to help me. Law enforcement is not available to help me. They can't do anything. So he's holding on to hope that this new person reaching out to him is real.
- [56:25]
Patia Eaton
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also just this world of online banking and trading was all new to him and that I think, left him very vulnerable. And we spoke a lot with Chansey during the interview and I've spoken with him a few times since. And despite the sort of awkward moment of having to confront that the scam was still happening, Chansey doesn't want this to happen to anyone else. And he is in full support of us releasing this.
- [56:56]
Hannah Smith
Yes, yes, he is. Which is really nice. I mean, we wouldn't want to do that. We wouldn't want to release it if that were not the case.
- [57:02]
Patia Eaton
Yeah, of course not. Just wanted people to, you heard it from us. Chansey's on board and it feels purposeful in sharing the story. And yeah, so I spoke with Chansey a couple of times after our interview, as you know, Hannah. But for listeners who might be concerned about him, Hannah and I put together a list of resources, local resources and organizations that might be able to help him in his current financial state. And yeah, I mean, Chancey has had to, in recent weeks sell his only vehicle. His means of transportation now is an electric tricycle, which obviously in the Colorado winter will not be usable for him. Yeah, we didn't learn this in the interview, we learned it after. But he did give thousands of dollars to this vigilante computer whiz person in the hopes that that would result in getting his larger sums of money back. And he found that money by pulling it out of his ira. So now he owes taxes on that money. So, yeah, it's definitely one of those stories where it's like, wow, there's no save the cat. This is a really sad story. And I think the point is that it can happen to anyone. And I know just from our emails that we receive at the knife. We've had multiple people already reach out and say, I think my mom's being scammed. I think this person I know is being scammed. And I can't convince them. We got this after we released the episode about Donna Nelson.
- [58:34]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, Donna Nelson from Australia, who was wrapped up in a scam and ended up being arrested abroad because she unknowingly brought illegal substances across a border. We talked about how much of this Chancey interview to release, but I really think that understanding the situation, hearing the situation is important because he's not alone. This has happened to so many people. And Chansey is a smart guy. He was a journalist when he was younger. He was an educator for years. It's very clear, speaking with him and meeting him virtually, that he is a totally capable and intelligent person. And it's like a perfect storm of things that happened in his life. Isolation, grief of your partner, of your spouse is such a destabilizing thing. And I think there's a lot of people who find themselves isolated and alone. And having someone reach out and make that contact is so powerful.
- [59:35]
Patia Eaton
Really.
- [59:35]
Hannah Smith
I mean, you can see it when you talk to him. It's more powerful than an institution warning you this might be a scam or, you know, because it's like, human connection is what we all want.
- [59:47]
Patia Eaton
Yeah.
- [59:47]
Hannah Smith
So it's just like, it's good to be aware that this can happen and, like, something needs to be done eventually. And like, somehow, like, we're going to have to figure out how to warn people better or how to help people that this happens to.
- [60:01]
Patia Eaton
Totally. I mean, this whole scam about wrong number text messages, it's a thing that's happening more and more. I read in a CNBC article that said that AI is being utilized by these online scammers to provide access to personal information. And that one in four Americans have received these wrong number texts that are then, you know, first they're verifying that someone's at that number, and then they're followed by scam attempts. And they can find out a lot about you really quickly. Also, with the help of AI, they can find your social media accounts. And that probably gives them information about how to connect with you. And for all of these reasons and more, that is why I don't think anyone like Chansey should feel ashamed or foolish. It's like this is getting really advanced really quickly. And, you know, although I definitely, I think probably know a little more than maybe just an average person about online scams because of the work we do. Yeah. I Hadn't heard of this particular one about the wrong number. I get strange scam texts that are like, are you coming over? Where's dinner tonight? Like, strange. Like, I didn't.
- [61:14]
Hannah Smith
I know.
- [61:14]
Patia Eaton
I don't have dinner plans. I don't do anything but, like, this specific one. And so if you're Chansey, he's a friendly person. I know it's, like, within his nature to respond. And, yeah, Chansey was so kind and vulnerable and behind us sharing his story. And, yeah, talk to your friends and relatives if you think that they might be at risk of being victimized by one of these scammers because they're not just showing up in online dating profiles anymore. There's all kinds of sort of innocuous ways that they're starting to reach out.
- [61:48]
Hannah Smith
It always changes. I mean, even, like, I do that now. Like, I'm like, okay, my protocol is if I get something and I'm unsure whether it's a text or an email, I always show someone else. I'm like, what do you think of this? Is this weird? Should I respond to this? I got one the other day, and I almost deleted it. It was from a text from an unknown number, and it said something in there that was so, like, reference podcast work that you and I had done in our previous podcast. And I was like, wait, okay, this actually could be a person that I, you know, I don't have their number. And that was the only reason I replied. And it did end up being someone that I know.
- [62:27]
Patia Eaton
Oh, my gosh.
- [62:29]
Hannah Smith
But I was almost, like, immediate. I got a text from an unknown number. Block. This is a scam. But, like you and I talk about, in years to come, the scams are gonna get so elaborate. Like, what are we gonna do, like, when we're retired? Just gonna be full holograms of, like, you know? And I don't want someone being like, well, she deserved it. Cause she's dumb. It's like, no, I don't.
- [62:51]
Chancey Lewis
Yeah.
- [62:51]
Hannah Smith
No, I want us all to look out for each other and try to help each other, you know?
- [62:56]
Patia Eaton
Totally. I mean, you know, I have a mortgage, like, a lot of people, so I have homeowners insurance, and I get letters all the time that look like official documents from my insurance provider that are not.
- [63:10]
Hannah Smith
That's wild.
- [63:10]
Patia Eaton
Yeah. And it's like, I know not to call, but. And I think maybe those are just, like, sales tactics or something, but they're very confusing. And I could see someone. It's, like, at risk of losing on your policy or whatever, and you're like, wait a minute, what's going on on? It's all happening all kinds of ways now.
- [63:29]
Hannah Smith
Everyone look out for each other and double check if you have any questions, just ask someone. Do you think this is real?
- [63:34]
Patia Eaton
Yeah. That's so important to let people know what's going on.
- [63:38]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Well you know we have let Chancey know Pesha you've been in contact with him multiple times and have let him know that we are available if he ever needs to reach out. We've sent him resources and we wish him the best of course.
- [63:55]
Patia Eaton
Thanks everyone for listening. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is the knifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or bluesky at the Knife Podcast.
- [64:09]
Hannah Smith
This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith
- [64:14]
Patia Eaton
and me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.
- [64:18]
Hannah Smith
This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogel.
- [64:21]
Patia Eaton
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
- [64:23]
Hannah Smith
Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
- [64:25]
Patia Eaton
Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
- [64:27]
Hannah Smith
Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
- [64:39]
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Chancey Lewis
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