Hannah Smith (2:12)

This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is adv. Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.

Patia Eaton (2:36)

I'm Haisha Eaton. It's a very special day today. We have an episode out and it's not Thursday.

Hannah Smith (2:43)

What? How wild.

Patia Eaton (2:45)

How wild and unpredictable of us.

Hannah Smith (2:47)

I know. You know we loved this conversation so much that we decided to go ahead and just release it even though it's not Thursday. In this episode, we talk with Ailin Lance Lesser about solving cold cases with new DNA technology and genetic genealogy.

Patia Eaton (3:02)

Elin is the host of America's Crime Lab and she tells us about a cold case that was solved after more than 40 years. In the beginning, we'll talk a little bit about genetic genealogy, which we thought was important to try to understand how this all works. But stick with us because we get into a cold case that is truly factual. Fascinating.

Hannah Smith (3:21)

Enjoy the episode. Aylin, welcome to the Knife.

Aylin Lance Lesser (3:29)

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Patia Eaton (3:32)

We're really excited to talk to you today.

Hannah Smith (3:34)

Yeah, we've been listening to your podcast and we're obsessed, so we are excited to get into it. So a little bit about your bio. You co, wrote, produced and co hosted the Turning, which listeners might be familiar with. It's excellent. An award winning documentary podcast that intimately explores insular groups with blurry power dynamics. And there are three seasons out now. But we're actually here to talk to you about your other podcast, America's Crime Lab. And that show covers cases that are oftentimes unsolved for a long time, some current cases as well, but that are all solved with the help of DNA testing and genetic genealogy. And all cases that Othram Labs have worked on. That name might sound familiar because Othram has been connected to some very high profile cases, the Golden State Killer investigation for one. But there have been many. So America's Crime Lab, it's a collaboration between Kaleidoscope, iHeart and Othram Labs. And I'd love to hear about, you know, how the show came about. And were you already really interested in, you know, DNA use in criminal cases? Like, how did this all happen?

Aylin Lance Lesser (4:43)

Well, I feel like it was one of those providential things where it all came together. I personally have always been a true crime fan in the sense that I just love human stories. And I think when people face such horrors, it's like you just see the basis of humanity. And so I'm someone who's always consumed that media. Basically it was really like a team effort for how it came to be. Like you mentioned Kaleidoscope and iheart and Othram kind of together. We're like, let's make this podcast where we can spread the word on this new technology that a lot of people either literally don't know about or who have vaguely heard about that is changing the way crimes are being investigated. And I think what's exciting about our show is that it explains the science in a way that I think is pretty relatable. Like, I'm not a genetic scientist as the host, and I feel like I'm kind of getting it now, and I think it's helpful to be able to consume other media about True Crime. So they kind of conceived of this podcast idea together. They were like, we want this information to go out into the public because the more people know about it, the more detectives across the country could reach out to Othram and use the technology. Like a huge barrier to it being used is people just not knowing about it. So then, because I had worked with some of the team at Rococo Punch that's working with Kaleidoscope to make the podcast on the Turning and other shows, and they knew I had a background in psychology. I actually have my PhD in clinical psychology and did a lot of therapy and all that, gave therapy before switching careers. They're like, we know you like True Crime. Like, would you host this show with us? And I was like, are you serious? This is a dream come true because it is something I'm so passionate about. And it just felt truly providential to be able to work on this.

Hannah Smith (6:36)

That's so cool.

Aylin Lance Lesser (6:37)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (6:38)

So we're gonna talk about a specific case that you cover on the podcast. But first, you mentioned, you know, Othram is bringing this very new technology. And I've sort of been interested in Othram for a while. I've listened to some podcasts with David Mittleman, the founder. I've been trying to understand, like, okay, DNA testing has been around since, like, the 80s or something that's been used in criminal cases. But what Othram is doing seems really different and new. And so I've heard David Bindleman kind of explain how the technology works. To be honest, I still don't really understand it. There's a reason I'm a podcaster and not like, a scientist. I do love the way that you talk about the technology being explained through your podcast. Things are always easier to understand through storytelling, in my opinion. But what have you learned about it from working on this case? The very layman's explanation of why what Othram is doing is so new and important.

Aylin Lance Lesser (7:36)

Honestly, I could go on and on about this, so it may take us a bit to get to the case, but I'm just kidding. Basically, it's this new technology that, you know, the old DNA technology, while totally great and has helped solve so many cases. It would look at 20 markers to create a DNA profile, whereas this new Type of DNA technology has, takes between 100,000 to a million markers and gives basically way more information in that DNA profile. Whereas before the old DNA profile with 20 markers, you'd run through CODIS, which is that national database that maybe your listeners have heard of before, and you'd look for a match with someone who is already in codis, someone who is convicted of a serious type of violent crime. So you'd need to have already arrested them and taken their DNA from another crime in order to get a match. So that's really helpful if you have that match, but also extremely limiting. And then it is true with codis, I think there are certain relationships other than the match, like a son or something that maybe you can glean from too. I won't get into those details though, just to be correct about it. I want to acknowledge that. But then with the new technology, because there's so much more information, you can plug that information into these databases that are genealogical websites basically, you know, like where you get a swab of your mouth and send it off for DNA testing to get to know your ancestry. Well, some of those sites have consented to forensic investigations. Not all of them, but some of them. And basically they can use those genealogical websites to build out a family tree from the profile. And rather than it just being a hit in codis, you can literally slowly go through the family tree, see what bits of their profile matches and whittle down, often to a single name of who they're pretty sure left the DNA at the crime scene or possibly like among a few siblings or something. So it basically provides you a lead. And that's something that Othram explains a lot. And investigators who've worked with this type of DNA, what this really does is it creates a lead. It's not a slam dunk. It doesn't mean you have a conviction or you have your case. And it's not saying, oh, if you left your DNA at a crime, it means 100% you committed it. It's just giving you a name to investigate. So then you have to go back and do your due diligence, figure out if the person has an alibi. You got to figure out other evidence, whether circumstantial or other links to the crime, and really do the good old fashioned detective work that we're familiar with. But then on top of it, if you have enough DNA, you also can run the old type of DNA. And then if you have this suspect, you can take a sample and run it against using the old technology to doubly confirm, like, this is the person. So it basically provides another type of DNA to test the old kind of DNA against. And it also creates new leads that were simply never possible before.

Patia Eaton (10:53)

And DNA gets into CODIS from either someone who has submitted it to, you know, ancestry.com or one of these sorts of websites, or I guess I don't know if Ancestry has consented to codis, for example, having their DNA records. But, like, how does DNA make it into CODIS to begin with, even if it's like you're connecting a piece of DNA that doesn't flag in codis, but maybe flags as, like, a relative of someone who is in codis?

Aylin Lance Lesser (11:22)

This is such a good question, actually, that you asked, because I think there is a distinction. So this information, with the new technology actually isn't typically being used against codis. CODIS is separate from the genetic genealogy. So I'm glad you clarified that. CODIS is just like the old standard 20 marker profile. So that's a separate thing.

Patia Eaton (11:44)

Okay.

Aylin Lance Lesser (11:44)

And this is using information from genealogical websites, so they're not even touching CODIS in this process.

Patia Eaton (11:51)

I see.

Aylin Lance Lesser (11:52)

So it could be anyone off the street. So it's often not criminals, but it's people who have consented to having their DNA profile that they uploaded for other reasons, provide information to lead someone potentially to a killer.

Hannah Smith (12:06)

Which is so interesting because then there are cases that we're hearing about now where the person who ends up, you know, the lead that is generated, and then it ends up, you know, through detective work, that it's them, they're not in the system. Maybe they've never been caught for a crime. Right. And so they've been flying under the radar, and suddenly there's this massive amount of DNA available that's so wild. Like, I mean, it's talked about a lot in the true crime space, but it's like, okay, you know, if you have that aunt or uncle who's like, you really shouldn't be doing any of the DNA testing, like, nobody do it. It's like, that could be what's a red flag.

Patia Eaton (12:41)

Just kidding.

Hannah Smith (12:42)

But thank you so much for explaining that. It'll really help us as we go through the case. We might need some more explainers, but you talk about a bunch of interesting cases on the podcast, but one that we want to talk about is one that was a cold case, specifically because we're super interested in cold cases and cold cases being solved through DNA technology. And so this is the case of Carla Walker, a case from 1974 and before we get into, you know, the investigation. Can you kind of walk us through who Carla Walker was and what was going on with the, you know, what happened in 1974?

Aylin Lance Lesser (13:18)

Yeah. So as you said, in 1974, Karla Walker went missing in the Fort Worth, Texas area. And she was a 17 year old girl, junior in high school, was known for having a really fiery, energetic personality, was really silly to people's, sad. So many people loved her. And she wanted to be a veterinarian. She loved animals, loved her little white dog whose nails she would sometimes paint pink. So she was spunky and fun and she was a cheerleader and she was dating the quarterback of the football team. And so in February, they were gonna go to their Valentine's Day dance and her boyfriend Rodney picked her up from home. Her family was all gathered there to send her off, take pictures in front of the fireplace. And they say, don't worry, like you don't have a curfew. You can come back when you want. We trust Rodney. We trust you. We'll be waiting up for you to hear how the night went. So they go to the dance, have a good time. And then after the dance, they are hanging out in Rodney's actually his mom's car because of course, they're high schoolers in the parking lot of a bowling alley and they're doing what teens do. They're hanging out, kissing a little bit. And then according to Rodney, the boyfriend, suddenly the door to the car opens and Carla kind of falls back and suddenly there's a man, or possibly two men, and they're with a gun, pointing it to them. And Rodney thinks that he's then shot and becomes unconscious. And when he wakes up, Carla is gone. So according to Rodney, presumably she's been abducted.

Patia Eaton (15:11)

And Rodney is unconscious for he thinks about how long?

Aylin Lance Lesser (15:15)

I can't remember the exact amount of time. But what is notable is so the next place he goes, allegedly is to Carla Walker's family's house, which I think.

Patia Eaton (15:24)

Is at around 1:30 in the morning, is when he gets to the wedding Walker's house, because they're all still awake, waiting for them to get home. Is that. Am I remembering that right?

Aylin Lance Lesser (15:33)

Yeah, yeah, you are. You're on it. What's interesting is that's roughly like an hour or hour and a half after when the alleged abduction occurred. Which is, I think, what you're alluding to, that it's kind of like there's this break in time. What was Rodney doing during that time? When he shows up, they notice even the Blood on his face because he was supposedly hit over the head, maybe with the butt of the gun or something. It's coagulated, showing time had passed. So I think eventually investigators kind of wonder about that. What was happening? What was he doing in that hour, hour and a half. So obviously, when he does arrive there, he tells the family she's been taken. They are just horrified. You know, they get police involved. The search begins. The father is so upset, he even heads out with a gun to try to find Carla. He's just devastated what has happened. I want her back, but they can't find her. Rodney is so close to the family. They really see him almost as another son or something. He even stays overnight in Carla's bed for a while because they trust him and they're feeling for him. And that's kind of the center of this investigation.

Patia Eaton (16:45)

At first, yeah, I was actually curious about that piece of this Rodney sleeping over. You know, he was, like, like you said, really close to the family, it sounds like, and they really trusted him with Carla, and, you know, he was almost like a son to them. But do we know anything about Rodney's family situation? I'm picturing, like, if I'm Rodney's parents and knowing that he just went through this incredibly horrific experience watching his girlfriend abducted, he's badly beaten. I would want him home with me. Do we know anything else about why he stayed there?

Aylin Lance Lesser (17:21)

You know, I'm not entirely sure, and I. I don't want to give you a wrong answer. That's such a good question, though. You would think that he would go home, and so that is almost a little bit suspect. But I do get the sense that that house became, like, the epicenter where everybody was coming, like the police were coming. He was probably being, you know, questioned by police. Maybe they wanted him around. And that's. There was, like, the hustle and bustle was happening there. So I wonder if that was part of the reason.

Patia Eaton (17:49)

Yeah, because he shows up and he's, you know, bloodied and beaten. But they remember him also seeming, like, genuinely terrified.

Aylin Lance Lesser (17:58)

Yeah, he was terrified. And he seemed to be so worried about Carla and what happened and, you know, feeling guilt and fear around, like, what happened? What could I have done to stop this? And who were these people or this person who took her?

Patia Eaton (18:14)

Yeah. So I think I took us on a little tangent, but. So the police arrive, and they go off searching with the dad goes with them. Rodney stays back at the house with Carla's mom and maybe also her aunt. And Carla's 12 year old brother. They're all still at the house. What goes on during the search?

Aylin Lance Lesser (18:32)

Yeah, so a lot of people in the community start searching. It takes them days, but eventually, three days later, they find Carla's body underneath a cattle culvert, basically in the middle of a field, kind of a quasi bridge that cattle can walk across. She's found underneath that, and clearly she was sexually assaulted and murdered. Basically. Some of the evidence that the investigators had with the case was first of all, in the bowling alley parking lot, they found a magazine to a gun. Now, this is 1974 Texas, so it could be unrelated to the crime. But they do their due diligence and try to find anyone who in the area who owned that gun and question them. And they don't really find many leads. It just kind of seems to stop dead. They don't go anywhere with that, really. And then they also noticed that Carla's promise ring that Rodney, her boyfriend, had actually given her, was strewn next to her body, which some people thought could indicate that maybe Rodney actually had something to do with it. Which of course, statistically, that's really common for the boyfriend, the spouse, to be the one to have committed the crime.

Patia Eaton (19:50)

Seems like something so personal.

Hannah Smith (19:51)

Yes, because he gave this to her as like a pre engagement or something like an intention to. We'll get engaged someday, I would assume.

Aylin Lance Lesser (19:59)

Exactly. He's saying, I'm committed to you. One day we'll get married. And. And this ring is a symbol of that. So it's a very meaningful symbol, I would assume, for them both. And so when I heard this, my initial thought was, hey, maybe it was like Rodney was upset at her for some reason and took off her ring and threw it to the side, or she threw it to the side and that led to an escalation of some kind. So who knows what happened, but there simply isn't enough evidence and they're not sure how it transpired. So over time, eventually the case goes cold, and it's devastating to the family. Jim, Carla's younger brother, whom you mentioned, was just devastated. He actually, I think, lived in that house and kept the family home throughout his adulthood in hopes that maybe someone who knew something would come and tell him what happened.

Hannah Smith (20:59)

Wow.

Aylin Lance Lesser (21:00)

He truly was haunted by it and counted the days since Carla's abduction years into his life.

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Hannah Smith (22:19)

What kind of man would let this happen to his family?

Murdoch Series Narrator (22:24)

Inspired by shocking act events, I'm working.

Patia Eaton (22:27)

On a story about the Murdochs.

Andrea Gunning (22:29)

Their abuses of power are playing out in real time.

Murdoch Series Narrator (22:32)

Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark.

Patia Eaton (22:36)

It's only cheating if you get caught.

Murdoch Series Narrator (22:40)

Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in the Family New episodes Wednesdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers Terms apply.

Patia Eaton (22:54)

Listening to Jim talk about witnessing his parents anguish over Carla's abduction was, I think it was life changing and something he never forgot.

Aylin Lance Lesser (23:08)

Yeah. And I have to say that's something I really value about what we were able to do with the podcast. I know you guys do this a lot on your podcast, but talking to family members and really getting up close to what it actually feels like in the moment for those people actually witnessing what happened. I think there's a power and an importance in that.

Hannah Smith (23:29)

Yeah, yeah. Because you talk with Jim in the podcast and some of it's edited together, but I imagine, you know, how long did you actually. How long was that interview with him?

Aylin Lance Lesser (23:40)

You know, we've done so many, I don't know, maybe like an hour or two. Yeah, I think it is important to hear those stories especially cause this is something that still impacts him, you know, to this day, as it impacts so many people in that community. I mean, the whole community, I think was really overwhelmed and frightened by what happened. It haunted a lot of people in that community for years to come because they believed it was someone in the community who had perpetrated this crime and they didn't solve it. I mean, how scary for anyone who has children to know that a young 17 year old has been abducted, sexually assaulted and killed in this way.

Patia Eaton (24:21)

Yeah. And it seems like also during this time, there's still a fair amount of people that suspected Rodney.

Aylin Lance Lesser (24:28)

Yes. And it gets so intense, all the suspicion around Rodney, that Rodney actually moves away from Texas and goes to Alaska to restart his life. And now that's a question of is he escaping something and doesn't want to get caught, or is he just so haunted by what happened and how people look at him differently and treat him differently and, you know, maybe he just felt he had to leave and kind of start over.

Hannah Smith (24:56)

It's so like, you know, thinking about that time that passed with him, you know, thinking he was shot, probably hit over the head with a gun potentially. And then there's this time that elapses and then he comes to the family and then the promise ring and then leaving for Alaska, all these things, it's like you could read them two ways. You could read them as suspicious, or if he's innocent, then it's horrible because then this person's life is being terribly affected by this. Not only the death of his girlfriend, but his community thinking that he's probably done this. Which I guess goes to show. I mean, that's one of many examples. Speaking with her brother as well. Just the way that cold cases don't just go away for people and for communities, when there's a violent crime that's occurred, it stays with people, which I'm sure you've heard this over and over now with doing this podcast and we've also heard on the Knife through interviews, is that people really care about resolution. It means a lot to people and to communities to have that answer. Without it, it's just like things are just left unresolved and people are continuing to hurt for so long. And so before we get into sort of like the next break in the case, did the police have any other suspects? I mean, I assume Rodney, was he a suspect at one time? Did they have any other leads or suspects?

Aylin Lance Lesser (26:21)

Yeah, so there were a number of people they looked into. First of all, Rodney definitely was high on the list. I think it's interesting initially because he was so close to the family, he wasn't thought of, at least in the immediate family, as a direct suspect. Again, he, like, slept over. But then when they spent more time thinking about it and the sexual nature of the crime, where had he been for that hour to hour and a half, they kind of thought, did they get into some kind of argument? Could this have led to a murder? And then they Also did question all the people who owned the gun that matched the magazine that was left in the bowling alley parking lot. And basically, one of the people that they questioned didn't have their gun. I think everybody else was able to, like, provide their gun and show it, and they were able to kind of cross them off the list. There was one person who said his gun had been stolen. They asked him to take a polygraph. He was very willing. He passed the polygraph. Of course, we know polygraphs are not that reliable today, but back then, that was considered the gold standard. And also, I mean, he was more than willing to take the polygraph test. He just simply didn't have the gun, he said. And so there was kind of nowhere else to go. And then a while later, someone else actually came out of the woodwork and confessed to the crime, someone not on the suspect list. And they were really shocked to hear from this person, and he confessed to the crime. But interestingly, he seemed to only know information that had been in the news. Didn't really know about Rodney being there or couldn't remember it.

Hannah Smith (28:09)

Suspect.

Aylin Lance Lesser (28:10)

Yeah, but there was a grand jury, and he was in, indicted and jailed for the crime. But then eventually he recanted and admitted, I made it up for some reason. Who really knows why?

Hannah Smith (28:23)

It's wild that that happens and how often it happens that people confess to crimes that they didn't do. Yeah, yeah.

Patia Eaton (28:30)

And it's just such a waste of resources for all of the investigators and then prosecutors in this case that then have to pursue it, because why would someone come forward and say that they did something so horrific if they didn't?

Hannah Smith (28:45)

Well, also, and I don't remember if you talk about this in the podcast, but was Jim told, did her family think that he had done it when he was indicted by a grand jury? Were people like, oh, yay, we got the guy?

Aylin Lance Lesser (28:58)

I think a lot of people did think he must have done it again because he admitted to it. And again, a grand jury, which I think a lot of people don't really realize, like, what even is a grand jury? I, like, only recently realized what it is, but it's like basically a mini trial where they have a kind of jury and they, like, put forward the evidence that they would put forward in the trial to basically determine, do we have enough evidence to go to trial? And that's what creates an indictment. So he was indicted. So even through this legal system, it was determined that there was enough evidence for him to go to trial. But, alas, it wasn't him. And yeah. It is such a good reminder too, in general, when we talk about crimes, like you don't know what people's motivations are for really weird or unusual behavior. And that's why the evidence itself is so important, the hard evidence.

Patia Eaton (29:56)

Do you remember how long after Carla's murder he came forward and said that he had done it? This person?

Aylin Lance Lesser (30:03)

I can't recall now off the top of my head. I think it was a long time later, though, like they had been investigating for a very long time. And he eventually came forward and possibly again because this case was sort of in the air. It had been in the media. The community was so focused on it. Yeah. And it sounds like possibly the man was having trouble in his marriage and like, oddly, somehow this was one way to cope with that. I don't know.

Hannah Smith (30:31)

So the case is still cold or then it goes cold again?

Aylin Lance Lesser (30:34)

Basically, yeah, it goes cold again. And unfortunately it goes cold for 46 years. So almost half a century. We don't know what happened to her until they decide to start doing some DNA analysis on the case.

Andrea Gunning (30:55)

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Hannah Smith (31:36)

What kind of man would let this happen to his family?

Murdoch Series Narrator (31:41)

Inspired by shocking actual events, I'm working.

Patia Eaton (31:44)

On a story about the Murdaughs.

Andrea Gunning (31:46)

Their abuses of power are playing out in real time.

Murdoch Series Narrator (31:49)

Starring Academy award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark.

Patia Eaton (31:53)

It's only cheating if you get caught.

Murdoch Series Narrator (31:57)

Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in the Family New episodes Wednesdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

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Aylin Lance Lesser (32:11)

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Patia Eaton (32:42)

I have to touch on this because I thought this part of the story was like so just reminiscent of what I picture of like small town Texas is the cowtown cold case chicks. Yes so Covid. Covid. They get together online. Then they get together at a diner, it sounds like, and they start talking about this case because one of the women in this group, it's basically what.

Hannah Smith (33:06)

Explain the cowtown.

Patia Eaton (33:08)

Yeah, yeah. So the Cowtown cold case chicks are a group of women who live locally, got online, started talking about cold cases and murders that had happened in the Fort Worth area. They had a rule that you couldn't talk about politics, only murder.

Hannah Smith (33:26)

Which makes sense.

Patia Eaton (33:26)

Yeah, totally makes sense. Nothing would get done. And 2020 or anytime, I guess.

Hannah Smith (33:33)

But.

Patia Eaton (33:34)

Yeah. And so one of these women went to high school with Carla Walker. They weren't friends, but she knew who Carla was and has memories of seeing her at school. And then another woman in the group is in 2020, married to Rodney's best friend.

Hannah Smith (33:49)

Oh, wow.

Patia Eaton (33:50)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (33:51)

So this is, like, all deeply connected.

Patia Eaton (33:53)

Deeply connected. And so they're like, okay, we want to try to solve this. And they put together their own case file.

Aylin Lance Lesser (34:00)

Yeah. No, it is a great story of. And what I love is the idea of just these people coming out of the woodwork. They're all. They're coming from all walks of life. Different backgrounds, maybe different politics. But they're brought together from this case and somehow just feeling this emotional connection to it and this personal connection. So they put together just all the information they can glean into a file, and they go actually to CrimeCon, I think, and they wanna get the attention of Paul Holz, who is a very famous investigator. He was heavily involved in the Golden State Killer investigation that was solved. And so he's like a big deal in the crime world. And he's kind of almost like this star. And he's on stage giving this presentation. And afterwards, the Cowtown chicks go up to him, hand over the file, and say, you need to work this case.

Hannah Smith (34:54)

I love it.

Aylin Lance Lesser (34:54)

What initiative.

Hannah Smith (34:56)

Seriously, it's amazing.

Patia Eaton (34:58)

Yeah. And he happens to be working on a show, a TV show, and looking for the next case that he's going to investigate. And so he's like, yeah, let's do it.

Aylin Lance Lesser (35:08)

It is funny how these things just, like, come together sometimes. But that's a way that they can get the funding to do the DNA testing on the DNA that they have to try to determine who committed this crime after all these years. So Paul Holes does the case, makes the TV show, and they do the testing, but basically they do testing that basically kind of fails, or they do have a profile that they're able to put into CODIS like we talked about before. But there's no match. And for some reason, I think with a different lab that they used or something, they consumed some of the DNA and they just feel like they're out of luck. They basically couldn't solve this case for the TV show.

Patia Eaton (35:57)

Because one thing I didn't realize until listening to America's Crime Lab is that when you test the DNA profile, you get one shot, and then it's no longer testable.

Hannah Smith (36:09)

You use it. You're using it up as you're testing it, right?

Patia Eaton (36:13)

Exactly.

Aylin Lance Lesser (36:14)

Yes. It's consumed in the process of the testing. So once you test it, you can't test it again. And if you somehow fail with the analysis, then you're just left with nothing. So they had had some DNA from semen found on a bra strap, which was a good, solid sample, but they used it up, and they couldn't get the DNA profile that they needed. So they think it's over. They think this is the end of the road.

Hannah Smith (36:39)

Like, can you just, like, talk to us a little bit about that? Cause I thought that was really powerful in the podcast of, you know, Paul stepping in to try to help solve this case. Doing his best, obviously, and then, like, hitting that roadblock. Like, what. What must that been like for him?

Aylin Lance Lesser (36:56)

I think he was really devastated. I think Paul Holz is someone who takes his cases home with him. He really feels them. He talked about sipping on his beverage of choice of liquor in his basement man cave, just thinking about this case, feeling like, what have we done? We consumed the DNA, and now we'll never know. And so I think it kind of haunted him. And, you know, he had spent his career working cases like this, and so I think he felt it. Personally, I think he was like, maybe we shouldn't have even tested it if we weren't sure we were going to get the result. And obviously, I would imagine everyone involved, I would imagine Jim, Carla's brother, would have been devastated to think this was our shot at figuring it out. And now we haven't figured it out. After all these years, I got my hopes dashed yet again. I think it is that feeling of, like, with those cold cases, what you guys were talking about before, like, this feeling of it being up in the air and that doubt and not knowing. I mean, it's torturous for these people.

Hannah Smith (38:02)

Yeah. I mean, it just, like, horrible. And obviously he was, like, you know, really trying to help and very invested. And then it sounded like, you know, because he had used up a lot of it, that he wasn't sure if anything left was testable is that. And then, like, how does. So where do we go from here if it's like, there's no more DNA, right?

Aylin Lance Lesser (38:25)

So it seemed like maybe there weren't any other options. Now there actually was another sample of DNA. The problem was that it was mixed DNA. So DNA that had maybe been mixed with Carla's DNA or like, maybe exposed to plants and plant DNA, you know, that's the other thing. Actually, quick side note about this technology, so that your listeners can feel like, ooh, I'm. I'm up on this and can explain this to other people. What's cool about the technology that othram, this lab has is that it can take DNA that is way more degraded in way worse condition with much smaller amounts than you would typically need with old type of DNA testing and still come out with an answer with, again, way more information. Again, between 100,000 and a million markers, as opposed to, like 20. Part of what Othram does is have a whole process for also determining can we analyze this DNA or not? Do we have enough? It's not like the cheek swab that you take when you're sending in your genetics to get your genealogy or something like, that's a nice clean saliva swab. Whereas this, it's like it happened to fall on her bra strap or her dress. It's been sitting out in the sun and the heat, the Texas heat, for three days. Then on top of that, in Carla's case, there is this additional DNA on her dress, but again, it's mixed with other DNA. So the idea that it can be tested, you know, Paul Holz thinks, I don't think this is possible, and people just think this is the end of the line. However, because of the TV show, two people, Kristen and David Mittleman, the co founders of othram, they see this special on the Carla Walker case. And I think one of their children was around the age of Carla at the time when they saw the show. And they were just really struck by the case, personally drawn to what happened. And they said, I bet we can solve it. So they actually reached out to the team and said, hey, is there any more DNA evidence? And they said, well, we do have this mixed DNA, a very small sample. Like, I don't know. I think other people have said, we can't really test it. So they say, send it to us. Let's see if we can test it or not. They send it on over, and it is like the tiniest little bit of DNA. I think it's like 4 nanograms if I'm remembering correctly, which is like, just like a handful of cells, like, so tiny, you can't see it with a naked eye. Like, so small. I don't even know how they do this stuff. And so, you know, you'd think you can't test that. But Othram says, we can test it. We think we can test it, and we think we can come out with a result. So they say, okay, move forward with the testing. They move forward with the testing. And I can't remember, but I think it was on a holiday or something. David Menelman, one of the heads of Othram, calls up Detective Jeff Bennett, who's on the case. And when Detective Jeff Bennett sees that he's getting this call from David Middleman on a holiday, he thinks they've got him. So he picks up the call, and they say, we have a name. So basically, they had the DNA profile and through genetic genealogy of looking through the family tree, they're able to narrow it down to Glenn Samuel McCurley.

Hannah Smith (41:58)

They think this is a name that is the actual suspect. Because I know sometimes when they're doing the family tree thing, it might be, like, a relative or are they pretty sure it's this guy? Or they think it might be someone related to him.

Aylin Lance Lesser (42:10)

They come up with this name. It's a little bit confusing. At first they think it's this man, but then it turns out when they look him up, he died maybe two years before the crime was committed. So then they thought, oh, did his DNA somehow get on the dress? Although it is semen DNA, because there.

Patia Eaton (42:27)

Was something else, right, about her sister having worn the dress?

Aylin Lance Lesser (42:30)

Yes. Carla was re wearing this powder blue dress to the Valentine's Day dance that her sister, I think, had worn. You know, as you do you share dresses sometimes. And so they thought, okay, well, if this man is dead, maybe by the time of the abduction and murder, like, maybe it was actually from a different event. But then they look more deeply into the family tree, and they realize that he had three sons and that he does have a son, Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr. Who may have committed this crime. Wow. Yeah.

Patia Eaton (43:08)

Because they learned that he was Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr. Of these three sons, he was the only one of them living in Texas when Carla was murdered.

Aylin Lance Lesser (43:18)

Right. So, yeah.

Hannah Smith (43:20)

What a huge break in the case. Like, this was, like, a couple of years ago, right, that this happened?

Aylin Lance Lesser (43:25)

Yeah, it was extremely recently. I should know the year or, like, the exact months of when it was solved. But, yeah, like, Covid times was like the first break. So then it took a little while for it to get to othram after the TV show.

Hannah Smith (43:38)

Right.

Aylin Lance Lesser (43:38)

So this is all happening in the last few years.

Hannah Smith (43:41)

Karla was killed in 1974. And, you know, obviously, a ton of police work had gone into this case for many years. And now there's this name, which is a huge lead. Though, as you had said before, this is a lead. It's not like they can just take this test into a court and say, look at that. He's the one. So what do they do with this? Where does the investigation go from here?

Aylin Lance Lesser (44:10)

You're right. We can't know for sure. Even if he left his semen at the crime scene, do we know that he was the one to kill Carla? So they locate him. He's still living in the community in the same home he's been living in for decades. And they stop by to just check in with him. It's kind of around Covid time. So the investigators kind of pretend that they're just doing, like, home checks on people. Like, is everything going okay? Do you need masks? That kind of thing, I think. And they talk to his wife. And I do think one little interesting moment is when they first show up, they say hi to the wife, and Glenn is working out back in the backyard or something, and he comes around out front, and when he sees police, he immediately throws up his hands and says, oh, it wasn't me. It wasn't me. Basically joking.

Hannah Smith (45:03)

That like an old man joke?

Aylin Lance Lesser (45:05)

Yes, exactly. An old man joke.

Hannah Smith (45:07)

Yeah, dad joke. A little audacity, but, like, yeah, creepy.

Aylin Lance Lesser (45:12)

Yeah. And so they go in, and they end up asking him, like, you know, we're also looking into this crime that happened so many years ago. And anyway, it's confusing because they leave, and then they come back again. And I don't need to get into the mechanics of all that, but they come back again, and they really think this is the guy. They ask him, you know, where were you the night of Carla's abduction? And he says, oh, I was driving my wife around because she can't drive, so I always drive her around. And then the wife, who's sitting elsewhere in the room in their living room, kind of says, from the table, oh, now you're wrong about that. Like, I was out of town that weekend. Silly Glenn. So his alibi is shot. A little while later, they ask, you know, could we have a DNA sample? And he said, oh, you know, I think back in the day, they actually took my DNA sample. So I don't think you need it. But then the wife again in the corner says, oh, well, you know, honey, back then there were no DNA samples taken. It was the, you know, the 70s.

Hannah Smith (46:15)

So I am swollen his bluff, like just throwing him under the bus.

Patia Eaton (46:19)

I'm like, did she suspect him?

Hannah Smith (46:21)

Yeah, like what was going. Or maybe she just didn't know. Yeah, yeah.

Aylin Lance Lesser (46:25)

I kind of think she just had no idea and was just like, oh, help these kind police officers out.

Patia Eaton (46:31)

A truth teller.

Aylin Lance Lesser (46:32)

Yes, a true truth teller. So eventually, somehow he agrees to give his DNA. I still don't know how or why he agreed to that, but they take a swab of his DNA and they decide they're going to run it. And they run it and it is a match. So what's also great, quite often when they're checking the DNA, they run it against the old type of technology because that's like what's typically historically used. So they'll use that 20 marker system I talked about to double check to confirm that what they found with the new technology is correct.

Patia Eaton (47:12)

Oh, that's interesting.

Aylin Lance Lesser (47:13)

Yeah, that's another nice layer to this is quite often in these cases it's like a double check of the DNA testing. Often that test is done at the police department as opposed to like at othram. So it's also different people doing the testing.

Patia Eaton (47:28)

That makes total sense. Because I was wondering, you know, because they're such. It's such new technology and they're one of the only labs that is doing it. How do you have your, like, quality control? But they're comparing it against the 20 marker system that is widely accepted. Exactly. Okay.

Hannah Smith (47:45)

Did he show up in that system? Like, was he in codis?

Aylin Lance Lesser (47:49)

So, yeah, he hadn't been in CODIS because they had put his DNA through CODIS years prior.

Hannah Smith (47:56)

Oh, that's right.

Aylin Lance Lesser (47:57)

I think years. Maybe I'm getting the timeline wrong here. And they didn't have a match. So he wasn't in codis. So they, they decided to take him in for questioning. And at first he says, no, I didn't do it. He denies it. But after further questioning, eventually he admits to having committed the crime. So what was miraculous is that Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr. Had been on that list of suspects. They had. They had whittled it down to like around 84 suspects. And he was actually on that list because he was actually that man who had had the type of gun that matched the magazine at the bowling alley parking lot.

Patia Eaton (48:42)

He was the one who said it was stolen.

Aylin Lance Lesser (48:44)

Yeah, exactly. Who had taken the Polygraph Passed the polygraph. Yet another example of how we can't entirely trust polygraph tests. And they questioned him. We know the gun wasn't stolen. Tell us, Glenn, do you have it in your home? Where is it? And he eventually admits, yes, it's in my home. And he tells them where it's hidden. He actually made this, like, room addition. He built this addition to his home and hidden in the ceiling plank. You can push it up, he says, and you can find my gun there wrapped in a towel. And so they go and they find the gun.

Patia Eaton (49:19)

Wow.

Aylin Lance Lesser (49:20)

So there's another piece of evidence against him.

Patia Eaton (49:23)

Wow. And he hadn't committed other crimes in this 46 years, or did he, as.

Aylin Lance Lesser (49:29)

Far as getting caught for crimes? Yeah, he was. Had pretty much a clean background, and he technically was on the suspect list, but had kind of been ruled out.

Patia Eaton (49:41)

But he wasn't like, this known violent offender.

Aylin Lance Lesser (49:45)

No, he was a part of the community. He had two kids, had this wife, had been living there for years, was just considered to be, you know, this man in the community, someone that was probably trusted and. And loved. So I think it was really shocking. And. And so he did admit to it. So eventually it was decided, you know, it was going to go to trial. But unexpectedly, initially, he said, I'm going to plead not guilty. After having confessed after the DNA evidence and after finding the gun, he still was going to plead not guilty. And so I think a lot of people were very upset about this, and a lot of people even wonder, how can you possibly plead not guilty after all that? But think about it. There might be ways where they can somehow throw out the DNA evidence in court or somehow find a loophole to throw out the confession or chalk it up to a false confession or something, or convince the jury of something. So, you know, it is a scary thought. Even if you have the DNA evidence, it's not a slam dunk.

Patia Eaton (50:49)

Totally, because the jury would have been looking at him as this elderly man, not this, like, young person who can fight off the star football player and kidnap this other young woman they would be looking at. I mean, he must have been in his 70s.

Aylin Lance Lesser (51:05)

Yeah, he was young at the time of the crime, so I think he was in his 70s. 46 years later when they're questioning and jailing him.

Hannah Smith (51:16)

What ended up happening, though, with the trial?

Aylin Lance Lesser (51:18)

So eventually, though, he unexpectedly changed his plea last minute to guilty. And so he was convicted of the crime. And I think everyone involved was so relieved to know that he was going to prison for probably the rest of his life.

Patia Eaton (51:35)

Wow. I don't know if you have any information on this, but I think I read that they ended up suspecting him of additional rapes and murders, although he was never charged. Were you able to find anything about that?

Aylin Lance Lesser (51:48)

Yeah. So one interesting thing is when they were interviewing him in that confession, he did describe details of Carla's case and what happened, but he also seemed to be, like, kind of mixing up stories. And in, like, for example, what she was wearing and confused it potentially. They noticed what he described was similar to another murder that had happened nearby of a young woman or girl in the area. And so the detective put two and two together and thought, oh, my gosh, is he confusing different crimes he committed? And so he asked Glenn in that questioning, oh, like, are you confusing different people that you did this to? And Glenn replies, I don't think so. Which suggested to that detective, I think he's committed numerous crimes.

Patia Eaton (52:44)

Yeah. I mean, as devastating as that is to hear, it's like that was one of my first thoughts listening to, like, you think about 46 years. You go from in his early 30s. I think he was 31 when Carla was murdered, when he murdered Carla. And then he's living as this, like, family man, this churchgoing husband, this father, four to six years. He just doesn't do that again. I mean, maybe, but it's such a brazen and violent offense that it was both, you know, maybe jarring. But I wasn't totally surprised when I read that because it was such a horrific murder to begin with. To think that then he just turned his life around. Highly unlikely.

Hannah Smith (53:22)

Yeah, totally. Well, also, I don't know. It just. It sounds like something a serial killer would do. Right. The type of murder it was. Although, did he know Carla or was she a total stranger to him? I can't remember.

Aylin Lance Lesser (53:35)

He didn't personally know her. Like, it was like his child went to the same school, high school, as one of Carla's siblings, But that was later after the abduction. So, no, he didn't know them personally, but, like, lived nearby.

Patia Eaton (53:48)

And did he just happen to be in that bowling alley parking lot, or was he following them? Did they ever find out?

Aylin Lance Lesser (53:56)

I'm not entirely sure. I can't remember because we do so many cases, it's hard to keep track of all those details.

Patia Eaton (54:03)

No, all good. I was just curious. But, yeah, I mean, it's just wild.

Aylin Lance Lesser (54:08)

I do get the sense that, you know, his wife was out of town when this happened. I kind of personally wonder if, like, this was something he would do when his wife was, like, out of town, and he would just find somebody who seemed vulnerable and, like, attack them when they were alone, maybe followed them there or just found someone who he thought he could take control over. That's what I think.

Hannah Smith (54:31)

His wife's reaction when he's being questioned makes me feel like she had no idea.

Aylin Lance Lesser (54:35)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (54:36)

Like, of course we're upstanding people. The police are here. We're gonna answer the questions. Like.

Patia Eaton (54:40)

Like, why wouldn't you give them DNA?

Hannah Smith (54:43)

Which must have been so shocking for her to find that out.

Patia Eaton (54:47)

Yeah, yeah, totally. Or his children.

Hannah Smith (54:49)

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. But, you know, it's something that you talk about on the podcast a lot that I think is so important and interesting and that you mentioned earlier, which is, like, people do weird things, and it can be really easy when we're talking about a case to think that something is suspicious or this person acted this way and that's really suspicious. Like, Rodney slept over, or where was Rodney for that hour and a half? Or the fact that he moved to Alaska could all be considered, like, really suspicious behavior. And, you know, when you don't have hard evidence, anybody can become a suspect, and, like, suddenly it can tear towns apart and families apart. And the fact that this cold case finally got an answer is just incredible. Someone who probably without this, would have kept living the rest of his life free and never have faced consequences for this. And that's the heart of, like, what I find so fascinating about DNA technology and genetic genealogy being used to solve cases, especially cold cases. It's just. It's mind blowing that we're here that we're able to do that with technology today. How has that been for you, working on these cases?

Aylin Lance Lesser (56:01)

Yeah, that is such a good point. That is what is so amazing about this technology. Not to, like, I don't mean to sound too cliche or like I'm promoting the technology. I just think it's pretty cool as someone who came into this project and learned about this technology from knowing almost nothing to now knowing so much more about it. It's like it is solving cases that have been stone cold for decades. Candy Rogers, another one we had talked about maybe discussing that was cold for 62 years before that was solved as well. These are cases that are considered the Mount Everest of cases for these communities or these police departments. And suddenly they're just getting solved like that. And I think the impact is that now people can be caught before they perpetrate more than once. You know, I think about the Idaho college student murder case with Bryan Kohberger Othram was involved in tracking him down and identifying him through the same DNA analysis. So. And that was, you know, a matter of weeks after he perpetrated the crime. And I wouldn't be surprised if he would have gone on to perpetrate other crimes.

Patia Eaton (57:10)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Hannah Smith (57:11)

Yeah.

Aylin Lance Lesser (57:12)

And so just to think that this technology can actually stop potentially serial killers in their tracks, it's miraculous.

Patia Eaton (57:20)

Totally. Yeah. I went to Washington State University in Pullman.

Aylin Lance Lesser (57:24)

Oh, wow.

Patia Eaton (57:24)

So I've spent a lot of time at U of I, and that case blows my mind. And I had read about Othram when that happened and was blown away by it because, of course, I'm sure he would have gone on to commit other crimes. I mean, that was just such a horrific attack. And also studying criminology.

Aylin Lance Lesser (57:40)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (57:41)

Yeah.

Patia Eaton (57:41)

Not a good guy.

Aylin Lance Lesser (57:42)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (57:43)

Well, I just had one last question. You had an episode where you mentioned the vast number of unidentified remains that exist in the US And I think you called it a silent epidemic. So I wanted to quickly ask you about that, and what is being done to identify those, you know, unidentified remains and what you meant by silent epidemic?

Aylin Lance Lesser (58:04)

Well, I think for a lot of us as we go throughout the world and life, we assume that, like, the government protects us and takes cases of, like, missing persons or of bodies that are found, remains that are found, and says, we're gonna at least figure out who this is. Like, let's for a second forget even solving the murder if it's a murder. Like, let's just figure out who this person is who has passed away and their bodies found. But the reality is that there are tens of thousands of remains existing in the US that are simply unidentified. And for each one of those people, you know, there's a family, a community, friends who have lost that person and just have no idea what happened to them. And so some of the cases we discuss on our podcast are people that have simply been identified and the huge implications of that or how that potentially opens a murder investigation from there and what it's like for families to hear, oh, I lost my dad when I was little, and I never knew what happened to him. I thought he left me and never wanted to speak to me again, but, oh, turns out he died in this very dramatic way. I think it helps people to just know what happened, even if they, you know, it's still a huge loss, probably still traumatic for them. But to just have some kind of knowledge is so important. And it's funny, we think of basic things like medical care being something that everybody should have, you know, but it's like I would hope that if, if I died and my body was left somewhere that someone would try to find out who I was. And so luckily it's a lot more to get into than really for right now, but OTHRAM is partnering with other forensic anthropologists and partnering with different communities to try to identify a lot of these remains. And I think they're also working on legislation to try to get more remains identified and soon.

Patia Eaton (60:06)

That's amazing.

Hannah Smith (60:07)

Yeah. So amazing.

Aylin Lance Lesser (60:09)

Yeah, it's important, I think.

Hannah Smith (60:10)

Yeah. Not something I had spent a lot of time thinking about, but yeah, I think it's important as well.

Aylin Lance Lesser (60:15)

Yeah.

Hannah Smith (60:16)

Wow. I mean, we could talk to you forever, but Ailin, thank you so much for coming on the Knife and talking to us. We love your podcast and we hope that everyone goes and listens to it. America's Crime Lab. Thank you so much.

Patia Eaton (60:28)

Thank you.

Aylin Lance Lesser (60:29)

Thank you so much.

Patia Eaton (60:34)

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is the knifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram Henife Podcast or bluesky at the Knife Podcast.

Hannah Smith (60:44)

This has been an exactly right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.

Patia Eaton (60:49)

And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexa Samarosi.

Hannah Smith (60:54)

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifel.

Patia Eaton (60:56)

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Hannah Smith (60:58)

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Patia Eaton (61:01)

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Hannah Smith (61:02)

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

Andrea Gunning (61:14)

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Hannah Smith (62:21)

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Aylin Lance Lesser (63:18)

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