The Knife: Off Record – 110

Summary

Detailed Summary of "The Knife: Off Record – 110"

Episode Title: The Knife: Off Record – 110
Release Date: May 29, 2025
Hosts: Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton

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Introduction

In Episode 110 of "The Knife: A True Crime Podcast," hosts Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton delve into the harrowing aftermath of troubled teen programs in the United States, focusing on the tragic case of Joseph Stanley Burris. This episode serves as a follow-up to the previous week's discussion on the Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy, expanding the narrative to include related institutions and the broader socio-political landscape influencing them.

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Background on Troubled Teen Programs

The episode opens with an exploration of the troubled teen programs prevalent in the 1970s and 1980s, specifically highlighting the Bethesda Home for Girls in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Founded by Lester Roloff, Bethesda was marketed as a sanctuary for young pregnant girls and those with behavioral issues, ostensibly providing a Christianist environment aimed at rehabilitation.

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The Story of Lisa Dean and Bethesda Home for Girls

Patia Eaton shares her extensive research on Bethesda Home for Girls, including an interview with Lisa Dean, a former resident who provided a deeply personal account of her experiences.

Key Points:

• Founder and Operation: Bethesda operated in a conservative Mississippi town under the guise of offering a safe haven for young pregnant girls and those needing behavioral correction.
• Misrepresentation: Lisa describes the facility as misleading, where young women were promised support but instead faced severe abuse and exploitation.

Notable Quote:

"Bethesda Home for Girls, if you Google it, was sort of advertised as a safe haven for young pregnant girls to give birth, and then their babies were adopted out by… I mean, I'm putting this in air quotes because it's how it was advertised." ([02:35])

Abuse and Exploitation:

• Conditions: Residents were subjected to strict rules, sleep deprivation, minimal meals, and constant religious indoctrination.
• Physical Abuse: Use of paddles and punishment for minor infractions were commonplace, justified under the guise of religious discipline.
• Lack of Support: Instead of receiving counseling or therapy, residents were isolated from their support systems, exacerbating their trauma.

Systemic Issues:

• Adoptions: Over a hundred adoptions occurred under dubious consent circumstances, often involving teenagers who were emotionally and physically compromised during the adoption process.
• Legal Oversight: During the 70s and 80s, there was minimal regulation, allowing such abusive practices to continue unchecked until legal actions commenced.

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Shift in US Policy on Troubled Teens in the 1990s

The narrative transitions to the early 1990s, a period marked by heightened fear and legislative responses to perceived juvenile delinquency.

John Diulio and the "Super Predator" Theory:

• Introduction of the Term: Political scientist John Diulio coined the term "Super Predator" in 1995 to describe a purported wave of violent teenage criminals.
• Impact on Legislation: His theories influenced the Violent Youth Predator Act of 1996, which provided substantial federal funding to states that toughened their juvenile offender laws.

Notable Quote:

"He predicted there was gonna be what he called a wave of teenage crime. He said America was sitting on top of a crime bomb." ([20:20])

Consequences:

• Increased Juvenile Prosecutions: From 1985 to 1994, the number of minors tried as adults rose by 71%, disproportionately affecting Black youth.
• Miscarriage of Justice: Diulio's predictions were baseless and racially charged, leading to harsh sentencing of minors without addressing the underlying issues of mental health and trauma.

Reversal and Reflection:

• Miller v. Alabama (2012): This Supreme Court decision declared mandatory life sentences without parole for juveniles unconstitutional, though prior legislation had already ingrained severe punitive measures.

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The Case of Joseph Stanley Burris

The heart of this episode revolves around Joseph Stanley Burris, a 15-year-old involved in the murder of fellow student Will at the Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy in 1996.

Background and Family Tragedies

Early Life:

• Birth and Family: Born in 1980, Joseph grew up in Granada Hills, California, in a devout Baptist household with his parents, Patrice and Keith, and two brothers, Nathan and Kyle.
• Parental Influence: His father, Keith, was a close figure, actively involved in his sons' lives through activities like swimming. The family was tightly-knit and deeply religious.

Tragic Losses:

• Father's Death: In 1993, when Joseph was 12½, his father died unexpectedly from a heart attack, a traumatic event witnessed by Joseph.
• Mother's Remarriage and Subsequent Loss: Shortly after, Joseph's mother married Ken. Nine months into the marriage, Ken was diagnosed with colon cancer, further destabilizing the family unit.

Impact on Joseph:

• Behavioral Changes: Joseph began exhibiting signs of severe depression, withdrawing from activities he once loved, including swimming, and spiraling into substance abuse.

Notable Quote:

"Joe was just really struggling with that. He stops sleeping through the night, he stops eating, and people notice he's losing a lot of weight." ([35:02])

Enrollment in Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy

Decision to Send Joseph:

• Confronted with his deteriorating mental health, Joseph's mother, Patrice, along with friends, decided to enroll him in Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy, hoping it would provide the structure and discipline he desperately needed.

Environment at Mountain Park:

• Abusive Practices: Similar to Bethesda, Mountain Park enforced strict rules, corporal punishment, and a culture of surveillance and manipulation.
• Lack of Support: Instead of addressing Joseph's mental health needs, the institution prioritized discipline and conformity, contributing to an environment of hopelessness and resentment among the residents.

The Murder of Will

Events Leading Up to the Crime:

• Role at Mountain Park: Joseph was promoted to orientation guide, a position where he oversaw newer students, including Will.
• Anthony Rutherford's Influence: Anthony, an 18-year-old resident, approached Joseph with a plan to "take over" the school, seeking firearms and proposing an attack on the girls' side of the campus.

The Crime:

• Plan to Dominate: The plan involved stealing firearms and perpetrating violence against female students, reflecting the toxic and abusive atmosphere of Mountain Park.
• Murder Execution: On March 25, 1996, around 3:30 PM, Joseph and Anthony brutally murdered Will with a brick and a knife during a routine firewood collection trip.

Notable Quote:

"What they did to Will, committing a murder, obviously, there's no excuse, but it is shocking that the environment they were in at Mountain Park didn't play a role in the trial, because how could it not?" ([48:10])

Aftermath:

• Confession and Arrest: Overcome by guilt, Joseph and Anthony confessed to the crime, leading to their immediate arrest.
• Trial and Sentencing: Both were convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. Joseph's sentence was later appealed but upheld despite the Miller v. Alabama ruling.

Recent Developments:

• Parole Hearing: In 2021, Joseph attended a parole hearing where Meg Richter, a previous Mountain Park resident, testified about the abusive environment, providing crucial context that influenced the parole board's decision to grant him parole.
• Potential Release: Joseph Burris is set to be released next year after serving 30 years in prison.

Notable Quote:

"He will be released next year... you have to remember, you have these boys who were deemed by their families as really in need of a lot of help, having behavioral challenges." ([52:01])

Impact on Families and Communities

For Will's Family:

• Enduring Loss: Will's family faces an unimaginable loss, with their son missing for over three decades and no closure.

For Joseph's Family:

• Blame and Guilt: Patrice, Joseph's mother, struggles with the consequences of her decision to send Joseph to Mountain Park, questioning the adequacy of the support she provided.

For Anthony Rutherford:

• Death in Prison: Anthony died in prison in July 2015 under circumstances with no foul play suspected, adding another layer of tragedy to the story.

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Insights and Conclusions

The episode underscores the profound and often overlooked impacts of abusive troubled teen programs. Joseph Burris's story exemplifies how systemic failures, lack of proper mental health support, and abusive environments can lead to tragic outcomes. The hosts emphasize the importance of context when evaluating criminal behavior, especially in individuals subjected to extreme psychological and physical manipulation.

Key Takeaways:

• Systemic Failure: Troubled teen programs like Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy failed to provide the necessary support, instead fostering environments of abuse and hopelessness.
• Legislative Impact: Policies influenced by flawed theories like the "Super Predator" contributed to harsher penalties for juveniles without addressing the root causes of their behavior.
• Need for Reform: Joseph Burris's impending release highlights the need for continued advocacy and reform in how society handles juvenile offenders, emphasizing rehabilitation over punishment.

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Recommendations

As the episode concludes, Hannah and Patia share their recommendations for listeners interested in related true crime and psychological exploration.

Patia Eaton Recommends:

• "Stocked" (BBC Podcast): A gripping narrative where one of the hosts delves into the experience of being stalked, emphasizing the introspection and unraveling of online deception.

Hannah Smith Recommends:

• "Rich and Shameless" (HBO Docu-Series): A deep dive into true crime intersecting with sports, featuring stories like Dennis Rodman's financial manager's theft and the infamous Pam and Tommy saga, offering insightful interviews and comprehensive storytelling.

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Final Thoughts

Episode 110 of "The Knife: Off Record" serves as a poignant reminder of the long-lasting effects of trauma, systemic abuse, and the critical need for compassionate approaches to youth rehabilitation. By shedding light on Joseph Burris's life and the environment that shaped his actions, the hosts advocate for a more empathetic and informed perspective on true crime narratives.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Bethesda Home for Girls, if you Google it, was sort of advertised as a safe haven for young pregnant girls to give birth, and then their babies were adopted out by… I mean, I'm putting this in air quotes because it's how it was advertised." — Patia Eaton ([02:35])

• "He predicted there was gonna be what he called a wave of teenage crime. He said America was sitting on top of a crime bomb." — Hannah Smith ([20:20])

• "What they did to Will, committing a murder, obviously, there's no excuse, but it is shocking that the environment they were in at Mountain Park didn't play a role in the trial, because how could it not?" — Patia Eaton ([48:10])

• "He will be released next year... you have to remember, you have these boys who were deemed by their families as really in need of a lot of help, having behavioral challenges." — Hannah Smith ([52:01])

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For more gripping true crime stories, tune into future episodes of "The Knife."

Transcript

[Patia Eaton]

This is exactly right.

[Clayton English]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lod and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast.

[Greg Lod]

Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports.

[Clayton English]

This kind of star studded a little bit, man.

[Greg Lod]

We met them at their homes, we met them at their recording studios. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.

[Clayton English]

It makes it real.

[Greg Lod]

It really does. It makes it real.

[Clayton English]

Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sam Mullins]

Hi, I'm Sam Mullins and I've got a new podcast coming out called goboy. The gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable.

[Patia Eaton]

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted, had spent 24 of those years in jail.

[Sam Mullins]

But when Roger Caron picked up a pen and paper, he went from an ex con to a literary darling from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kristen Davis]

What happens when we come face to face with death?

[Patia Eaton]

My truck was blown up by a 20 pound anti tank mine.

[Hannah Smith]

My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel.

[Kristen Davis]

When we step beyond the edge of what we know, I clinically died.

[Patia Eaton]

The heart stopped beating, which I was dead for 11.5 minutes.

[Kristen Davis]

In return, it's a miracle I was brought back alive again. A podcast about the strength of the human spirit. Listen to Alive Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Hannah Smith]

This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[Patia Eaton]

Hello and welcome to. Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm Hannah Smith. Today we have two follow ups on last week's episode about Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy. We're gonna talk about the murder that took place there in 1996, as well as the troubled teen program that the Wills ran prior to Mountain Home for Girls. And as always, we will have recommendations.

[Patia Eaton]

Let's get into it.

[Hannah Smith]

So, you know, we talked briefly in the episode about Home for Girls, but you did a little more research about what exactly that was.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I did a little more research and I'll tell you about that. And I also spoke with someone who was sent there as a child.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

So Bethesda Home for Girls was just outside of Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Very small town, obviously, as you can imagine, a Pretty conservative area. It was also founded, of course, by Lester Roloff, as we know, who went on to start Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy after Bethesda. So Bethesda Home for Girls operated in the 1970s and in the 1980s. And I spoke with a woman named Lisa Dean, who gave me perm permission to tell her story on the show. Bethesda Home for Girls, if you Google it, was sort of advertised as a safe haven for young pregnant girls to give birth, and then their babies were adopted out by. I mean, I'm putting this in air quotes because it's how it was advertised. Good Christian families.

[Hannah Smith]

And are these, like, unmarried.

[Patia Eaton]

Unmarried teenage girls whose families maybe felt like it would bring them shame to the family, to their daughter to be seen pregnant.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So, I mean, in pregnancy, if you've never done it before, it can be pretty intense physically and emotionally. So immediately upon learning about this place and others like it, it's like, wow, to be going through that at a young age. You're not in a stable relationship with your partner, I would assume, and then you're taken from your family, who is hopefully a support system to you, and surrounded by strangers. I mean, it's pretty traumatic all around. Lisa, who I spoke with, actually found Lisa on YouTube. There was a YouTube video interviewing someone else who had been at Bethesda Home for Girls. And Lisa had commented, like, I'm so sorry you went through that. I know what you went through. I. I went there, too. And so Lisa actually was not sent there because of pregnancy. Her story is different. She.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Girls were also sent to Bethesda for behavioral issues. And this idea was that Bethesda would be both a place for pregnant teen girls to have their babies free of shame, with support. And it would also be a place to send girls who needed help with behavior and maybe getting their lives back on track, so to speak.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. It's interesting that those two things would be combined into one place. And it kind of shows, like, the attitude toward, you know, teen pregnancy. Teen pregnancy has always been stigmatized. Right. And it's not an ideal situation, but the fact that, you know, these teen girls are sort of lumped in with, like, kids who are having behavioral issues. It just really, I don't know, shines a light on the attitude toward all of that.

[Patia Eaton]

Totally. And, I mean, you can imagine the probably lack of sex education at that time.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And certainly young boys weren't sent away. Like, you have gotten someone pregnant, and then, you know, you need to take responsibility. That wasn't happening.

[Hannah Smith]

No, that doesn't happen, does it?

[Patia Eaton]

It doesn't happen.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And Lisa grew up in a single parent household with her mother, and they were incredibly close. Lisa, when I spoke with her last week, she's 60 years old now, and as she told me, her it was hard for her to get through. She was choking up a lot.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. Really?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Just the pain of what she went through was still that present for her all these years later.

[Hannah Smith]

And so how old was she when she was at Bethesda?

[Patia Eaton]

So I guess to start, it all happened because Lysa was estranged from her father. He was not in the picture. And her mother died by suicide when Lisa was. She remembers it as 11 or 12.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

And she said her mom was like the most incredible loving mother. She has so many memories in the kitchen, cooking beside her. You know, this was her entire world and support system. And it was a happy home that they lived in. And to lose her mother that way, of course, was just so traumatic. And she was sent to live with her aunt, her mother's sister. Lisa's aunt also was a very, she said, loving caretaker. She had only good intentions. But you. This was the 1970s, and Lysa was entering her teenage years, and now she was in a new home, reeling from the loss of her mother, and she started running away and maybe breaking the house rules. It wasn't one thing that was like, okay, now you have to leave. It was just this sort of like her behavior was becoming too much for her aunt. And her aunt, who attended a local Baptist church where they were living, she had heard of Bethesda Home for Girls.

[Hannah Smith]

Got it.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so Lisa remembers it as her aunt put her on a plane, did not get on the plane with her. And when she got to her destination, she was picked up by strangers, taken to a location, and then told where she was and why. And it was presented to her as a place where she could really find herself again and recenter. But of course, that's not what it was.

[Hannah Smith]

No, of course not. Yeah. That's so scary, too. You just like, are sent off. All the trauma she's already been through, and now she has no idea, like, what she's getting into, you know?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I mean, it was at a time when she really needed counseling, she needed therapy, and she didn't get those things. She was shipped off to what we now know was a place with a lot of abuse. So when Lisa got to Bethesda, the first thing, similar to Meg's experience at Mountain park, you're made aware of the Rules. And there are a lot of rules. You're up around 5am, teeth brush, face washed, and then you're supposed to be dressed and sitting in the hallway reading your Bible by like 6am or something crazy like that for teenagers, you know, who are growing and you're listening to Lester roll off, preaching on recordings, you're reading your Bible, you're doing devotions, then it's, you know, a very meager breakfast and then you're doing chores. Similar to Mountain Park. You have like a buddy system where someone who has been there longer is watching over you, making sure that you're following the rules. And if you're not, they're, you know, incentivized to report that. And then there is physical abuse. So they're sleep deprived. Even things like dreaming were not allowed.

[Hannah Smith]

That's dreaming when you're asleep.

[Patia Eaton]

It was like said that it was unchristian.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. I mean, psychotic.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And that piece I actually found online, Lisa didn't mention that to me, but it was just like, oh, okay. So no wonder this is how you're justifying this. Sleep deprivation is like, well, if you sleep, you might dream and we're gonna say that that's unchristian.

[Hannah Smith]

It's interesting to hear you say all of this because it's so similar to Mountain Park. We can see the similarities. We can see that their sort of system for operating these troubled teen programs was already like in place in the 70s and 80s. Also. Can we just acknowledge that you want these teens to read the Bible? Like, this is not the way that you do it.

[Patia Eaton]

No, this is not the way that you do it. It's like you are sleep deprived, you're hungry, and you're an adolescent person with all of these hormonal changes. It's like you're set up to fail.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And just like at Mountain park, these people are. They're financially incentivized. So Lisa wasn't there because of a pregnancy, but she was aware that that was something that happened there. But one thing I found really interesting, and although not surprising after having heard Meg's story, is that they didn't speak to each other really about anything personal. There was no information sharing between the students there. She said if someone was pregnant, I didn't know it.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

She said that she knew that was going on, but it wasn't like, you know, how are you feeling? There was none of that. But one thing Lisa really did remember is the fasting. And you know, being told to fast for so called religious purposes. But you know, you're young, you're growing, and you're made to do physical labor and chores all day.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

It's just excruciating. And so.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow, that's horrible. That's really horrible.

[Patia Eaton]

It's horrible. All of her communication, just like at Mountain park, was monitored. You know, this time it was all letters. They weren't doing any phone calls. And so Lisa knew that if her aunt knew what was actually going on at Bethesda, she wouldn't want her there. But all of her letters going to her aunt were read, and all of her aunt's letters going to her were read by monitors. And so there was no communication that she could have done to save herself from that situation. She was totally captive there.

[Hannah Smith]

It is like prison.

[Patia Eaton]

It's prison. Yeah. And it's not regulated at this time. There's no, like, enforcement officer coming in and making sure that these kids are getting the education they need to be getting, that they're getting the food that they need to be getting. That just wasn't happening. There was no oversight. And so Lisa was there for three years. She thinks it was about from age 13 to around age 16. Wow.

[Hannah Smith]

Those are pivotal years.

[Patia Eaton]

Pivotal years. And I think it just speaks to what she went through. You know, she said, I really don't remember a lot of that time because my brain has just blocked it out. It was just so bad. And not to mention, you don't get over the loss of a parent.

[Hannah Smith]

No.

[Patia Eaton]

So that's all very present. So Lisa's aunt just came to get her about three years later. She just sort of decided it had been enough time. And even then, Lisa didn't tell her aunt right away what had happened. She was sort of this mixture of, like, processing it and scared to tell her and also knew that her aunt would be really sad that that happened because that was not what she thought it was. And so there were so many mixed feelings around it. And she did eventually tell her, and she was really upset. It made their relationship difficult for a time. The living situation, these girls were packed into bunk rooms. Lester Roloff was there when Lisa was there, but when Bob and Betty came into the picture, they were referred to as Mama and Papa.

[Hannah Smith]

That is so creepy.

[Patia Eaton]

So creepy. So gross.

[Hannah Smith]

Also, like, if your mom has died, to be forced to call someone else Mama is, like, really sadistic.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, my God. Yeah, it's, like, terrible. They were beat with paddles. It was just abhorrent. And so I tried to also find out a little bit more about the teen pregnancy and how that operated at Bethesda outside of my conversation with Lisa. And from what I gather from researching it online, there was an estimated, you know, hundred plus adoptions that took place from teen pregnancies that were happening at Bethesda Home for Girls. And, you know, those young women, those girls, they did not consent to the adoption in a meaningful way. So interestingly, in Mississippi at the time, at age 16, you have the right to say, no, I want to keep my child. And so you would have to sign the consent to adopt your child to another family. And there are a lot of allegations, just like in Meg's story, of girls who suspect they were drugged during their delivery and during the time that they signed that paperwork.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, so, like, talk me through that, because, I mean, I assume that when you're giving birth, you are given drugs.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, I was so, like, my epidural worked so perfectly. I had a really lucky birth experience with, like, pain management, but I was. Was very present the entire time. I was totally conscious of my surroundings and what was going on. So these girls don't know what they were drugged with, but it certainly wasn't just. No one thinks it was just a standard painkiller that got the best of.

[Hannah Smith]

Them because they don't remember.

[Patia Eaton]

They don't remember.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

There was an account online by a woman who said that she did not ever even see her child or have any memory of that. She didn't know if she had a boy or a girl, and a nurse accidentally slipped the gender to her and was punished for it. So these things were highly secretive. And I don't know how consent could exist where you don't even know the gender of your child.

[Hannah Smith]

Are they saying that when they were in this drug state that they were giving consent to adopt out their child?

[Patia Eaton]

Yes.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And, you know, who. Who's to say, were they actually even physically signing a doct if they can't even remember doing it?

[Hannah Smith]

So where does that leave these women now? Because this happened, you know, in the 70s and 80s. They were teenagers. Have any of them, you know, reconnected with their biological children since then?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, you know, thanks to the accessibility of genetic testing and websites like 23andMe or what have you, genetic testing websites, people have connected with their children after many years, and there's so many mixed feelings around reunion like that. You're. You're happy to be connected, but you've missed out on so much. And for the adopted child, that was their own trauma of questioning where they came from and if they were wanted and, and why their adoption took place. And then for the adoptive parents who were sold this bill of goods of like, you're doing a great thing and this mother wants you to have her child, to learn that the mother was actually 16 years old, has no memory of consenting to the adoption, and actually really wanted to keep her child. That is their trauma. And so it's so layered and it was all for profit. I don't know exactly what money they made. Of course we're not going to find that out. It was in the 70s and 80s, not regulated. I mean, even now there's a conversation around that. But they were incentivized to be doing this. And so Bethesda is eventually shut down. And how that happened is a young woman who is identified in court documents by the name of Candy, last name initial H, was on a monitored call with a family member. And the staff member who was monitoring her call, so this is in the 1980s, left the room and yeah, Candy seized the moment to communicate to the family member, like, come get me. It's not what you think.

[Hannah Smith]

Ah, good job, Candy.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And she was actually 19 when she entered Bethesda, which I just find so surprising because that's a legal adult and you're still being, you're there against your.

[Hannah Smith]

Will, forcefully held up there.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, it sounds like from what I gather with Candy's story, she initially wanted to go there, but once she got there and realized, you know, she was gonna be suffering a lot of verbal and physical abuse here, wanted to leave and then you can't because you've signed your rights away, essentially. So once Candy's family knew what was happening, they alerted an attorney who worked with the Southern Poverty Law center and they filed a lawsuit against Bethesda. As soon as that suit was filed, over 70 girls leave the home. And from there there was a lawsuit. And the repercussions are just mind blowing to read because it's like the result of the suit was that, okay, Bethesda Home for Girls, you're no longer allowed to paddle pregnant girls and you're now limited to no more than eight licks to others within a five day period. It's just like, how is this possible? But of course then they had more eyes on them and so then the state's paying more attention. So Bethesda Home for Girls was moved to Missouri, reopened under a new name and eventually closed in 2004. And we now know from our conversation with Meg that Missouri was home to Mountain Park Boarding Academy.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, they just moved states. They Just moved states because Mississippi, you know, I think I remember. Didn't they deem it as an unlawful detention facility or they were holding people against their will, which was unlawful. People who have not committed a crime.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. It was all around bad press, like, what are you doing to these young women? And now we are going to pay attention. And I think because of the way that they were operating, they knew the end was coming.

[Hannah Smith]

So then they just moved to Missouri. They just moved to Missouri, started back up again.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Sam Mullins]

Hi, I'm Sam Mullins and I've got a new podcast coming out called goboy the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable.

[Patia Eaton]

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted, had spent 24 of those years in jail.

[Sam Mullins]

But when Roger Caron picked up a pen and paper, he went from an ex con to a literary darling from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kristen Davis]

What happens when we come face to face with death?

[Patia Eaton]

My truck was blown up by a 20 pound anti tank mine.

[Hannah Smith]

My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel.

[Kristen Davis]

When we step beyond the edge of what we know, I clinically died.

[Patia Eaton]

The heart stopped beating, which I was dead for 11.5 minutes.

[Kristen Davis]

In return, it's a miracle I was brought back alive again. A podcast about the strength of the human spirit. Listen to Alive again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Hannah Smith]

It's April 2020. A woman announces on Facebook that she has Covid and won't be seeking medical attention.

[Patia Eaton]

I didn't want to be talked out of this plan.

[Hannah Smith]

Then she disappears. Anyone else think this is strange? I just had to know, how did this happen? Listen to what happened to Talina czar on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So before we get into, you know, the murder that happened in 1990 in Mountain Park, I wanted to talk about the mindset so many people had leading up to the 90s. So, like, everything that you're talking about the 70s and 80s just like, makes so much sense in this context. The fact that the end of this lawsuit is like, they limit them to how many swats that they can administer to students per day really like, shows you the mindset people had toward teens and children and how you were supposed to, you know, get them to be in line. And one of the things That I was reading about was just how troubled teens really became a huge topic in the US in the 1990s. And this guy named John Diulio, he is a political scientist and a criminologist, and he had written a lot about crime. He had visited prisons, he had visited juvenile facilities. And he is actually the person that coined the term Super Predator in 1995.

[Patia Eaton]

I wonder if he knew the staying power that would have.

[Hannah Smith]

I don't know. I was kind of like talking about this to Ben, my boyfriend Ben yesterday, and I just said like, do you know the term super predator? And he's like, oh, yeah, I've heard it. I asked him, like, what do you think that is describing? And he was like, I don't know. Someone who's like, really violent and has committed a lot of crimes and has like a huge criminal record and is incredibly dangerous. Like, you would think that.

[Patia Eaton]

Or like a grizzly bear.

[Hannah Smith]

Or a grizzly bear, yeah. And it's actually was coined to describe.

[Patia Eaton]

Teenagers, juveniles, which is so outlandish because in every single situation we've come across where we've been researching these troubled teen so called schools, it's like the child in question, the teenager in question has experienced a traumatic event, and they're reeling from that traumatic event, and then their behavior changes. Yeah, we know a lot about brain development at this point. They don't have the life experience, or whatever you want to call it, to kind of look in the mirror and say, okay, why am I behaving this way and how can I help myself? They need that guidance.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, yeah, they're just like reacting to the situation around them. But, you know, that wasn't obviously how a lot of people saw it in the 90s. And so Super Predator was coined in 1995. John Diulio, he had this theory. He supposedly, he looked at this data on crime and he, you know, analyzed the data and he predicted that there was gonna be what he called a wave of teenage crime. He said America was sitting on top of a crime bomb. He talked about, like, these homicidal teens roaming around in wolf packs that were gonna, like, just start wreaking havoc on America. I mean, he predicted this would happen in the thousands, the tens of thousands. He was like, in a few years, we're gonna see just like the streets overrun by these homicidal teenagers. And, you know, a lot of stuff has been written about this now. A lot of his language was very racist. You know, he talked about this starting in inner cities and even wrote about, like, black teenagers specifically. I mean, it was just so racist and said that, like, all of this crime would overtake the suburbs. There was just so much fear mongering about, like, quote, unquote, bad kids and kids that cannot be rehabilitated. And he actually, he went to the White House to consult with Bill Clinton, and he warned him about this coming crime wave. And he said apparently that rehabilitation does not work. And he advocated for locking bad teens up and separating them from society. And then in 1996, the violent youth Predator act passed. This is a federal act. It offered $1.5 billion in grant money to any state that toughened up their juvenile offender laws. And 45 states acted quickly on this, making their laws so much stricter against juveniles. And I think it's important to note that that's 1996, which is the same year of the murder that we're about to talk about. Right. So suddenly, across 45 states in the US it becomes very easy to try a minor as an adult for violent crimes. And, you know, like, one thing to note about Diulio before we move on from this is that he was wrong. Like, he was very wrong. He later came out and said that, like, you know, he, like, misinterpreted the data or he kind of blamed the data, but it's pretty clear that he interpreted studies incorrectly and then went on to become hugely influential in how people view teenagers who are acting out or even teenagers who are committing crimes. And has had, like, a pretty negative effect.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, the damage was done at that point.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So the Campaign for Fair Sentencing of Youth, their website, I just wanted to note a stat from their website. So from 1985 to 1994, the number of minors tried as adults nationally increased by 71%, and black children make up almost half that number. So it had, like, devastating effects on so many people's lives. And as we talk about the ripple effect on families and, you know, communities, Diulio did in 2012 signed Friend of the Court document. There was a Supreme Court case that would ban mandatory life sentences for juveniles convicted of murder. But that's in 2012. This law passed in 1996. So from 1996 to 2012, you know, there's not a whole lot there that's being passed that's preventing minors from being tried as adults. So that sort of sets the background to what we're going to talk about with this case today. Some of the information we got was from this trial transcript that I was able to find for Joseph Burris trial, as well as some other articles that we Found online.

[Patia Eaton]

And I reached out to the surviving members of Joseph's family, which is his mother and his two brothers, and I did not hear back from anyone. So I just wanted to mention that.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So Joseph Stanley Burris. He was born in 1980. He grew up in Granada Hills, California, in a Baptist family. He's the son of Patrice and Keith Burris, and he has two brothers, Nathan and Kyle Patrisse. His mother, she was a witness at the trial, and I thought it was interesting. She described her family that she grew up in. Her dad was a Baptist minister, and her family was incredibly religious. You know, she was raised in an environment where mental health wasn't really a thing that was talked about or acknowledged. Everything was spiritual. So every problem was addressed through prayer and through going to church. And this was kind of the same environment that she raised her children with. I think that's important to note because that really comes into play with everything we're talking about with troubled teens needing help. So it's Patrice and Keith, and they have these three boys. Keith was an engineer, and everyone says they were a very tight. They went to church together regularly. Patrisse homeschooled her sons. Keith and Joe were very, very close. Joe's father, Keith, he was a runner. He was an athlete. He loved to swim. And he started doing those activities with his sons. I think his two oldest sons, Joe, and his older brother got involved with swimming. And Joe, by all accounts, was really good at it. He was participating in swim meets, and his dad would always go to his swim meets and, like, tape record and cheer him. Patrisse said that Joe would follow his dad around, help him with the yard work. Like, he really looked up to him. And Keith was a really good dad. Joe is described by his family and community as like a good kid. He got, you know, fine grades. He was social. He was well liked. He didn't get in trouble. You know, he seemed, like, very well adjusted. But then when he was 12 and a half in 1993, they came home from a swim meet one day, and his father, Keith, had a heart attack.

[Patia Eaton]

Probably just so unexpected. He'd been living this ultra healthy, active lifestyle. Not that you would ever expect it, but, you know, young. He was young.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, young and healthy. And Joe was there to witness it. His mom called 911. He was rushed to the hospital. But he did die that evening. And this was an unexpected tragedy for the whole family. Patrisse talked about just absolutely falling apart, you know, not being able to get out of bed, just being so ridden with grief. And she did say that she really kind of didn't have a lot of energy to help her sons at that point in time. She enrolled them back in school because she just, like, could not homeschool them anymore. And she just tried to get by. And it seems like the other two sons, I'm sure it was not easy for them at all, any of them, but kind of, you know, were able to kind of continue on and cope with it in some way. Whereas it became pretty clear that Jo was really affected by this.

[Patia Eaton]

And if I'm remembering correctly, Patrisse also noted that Keith and Joe, their relationship was like. Not that he wasn't close to his other sons, but they had a very, very special connection. And so everyone responds to tragedy a little bit differently. And Joe was just. He did not respond to it by sort of putting his head down and focusing on schoolwork.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, he was devastated, and he started to internalize his feelings and kind of withdraw. Patrie said that she knew he was bothered, but he wouldn't talk to her about it. But life keeps moving forward, and they continue to go to these swim meets, which are, like, two hours away from where they live, and they start to carpool with another family in the area who they're friends with, who also goes to these swim meets. This woman named Louise is another mom. Her son goes to these swim meets, and they start to carpool with her. So, tragically, like, a few months after this happens where Joe's dad, Keith, dies, Louise gets cancer and can no longer drive them. So her husband Ken. There's a lot of Ks here. Ken starts to drive them. In September of 1993, Louise passes away from cancer. This is about seven months after Keith died. So now both Patrice and Ken have lost their spouses and are single parents. And it sounds like they just really bonded over that, and they start dating and get engaged. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Patia Eaton]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil school.

[Hannah Smith]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known. At the end of the day, I'm.

[Patia Eaton]

Literally a son of a killer.

[Hannah Smith]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Clayton English]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd, and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast.

[Greg Lod]

Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports.

[Clayton English]

This kind of star studded a little bit, man.

[Greg Lod]

We met them at their homes. We met them at the recording studios. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them.

[Clayton English]

It makes it real.

[Greg Lod]

It really does. It makes it real.

[Clayton English]

Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Gemma Speg]

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast Are youe a Charlotte? Sarah Jessica Parker is here, and she is sharing stories from the very beginning, like the time she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. I remember some things about shooting the pilot. Right. I have some memories I can fill in and that. You're going to fill me in. Yes. But then you forgot about it in the very long time they took about it. Listen to are you a Charlotte? On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Hannah Smith]

Before they get married, Joe approached his mother and asked her not to marry Ken. I don't think it was because he didn't like him. I think it was just like, so much like his dad had passed away, you know, a little more than a year before that, which is really not a long time. And Joe was still really struggling with that.

[Patia Eaton]

You're also then completely blending families.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

That's so much change in one year for a kid his age.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So at this point, he would have been like, 13. But they did get married. They got married in June of 1994, and then Patrice and her three sons moved out of their home and in with Keith. And I think this was also really hard for Joe. You know, then he's moving away from his home where he was with his dad. Joe is just, by all accounts, not doing well. He stops sleeping through the night, he stops eating, and people notice he's losing a lot of weight. He is more and more withdrawn and distant. Patrisse said, like, he would just be in his room and then he would come out for family dinners, but not really eat, not really talk, and then go back. So it's clear that something is really going on. He's really struggling. You know, he doesn't really get along with his stepdad at first, but they do start to get along. They're just different people. And obviously no one can replace his dad, but. But they start to, like, get along. And, I mean, it's just kind of unbelievable. Tragedy strikes again. Nine months after they're married, Ken is diagnosed with colon cancer.

[Patia Eaton]

Is that the same kind of cancer Louise had?

[Hannah Smith]

Do we know I don't know. I wasn't able to find that.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow. That's just like. Yeah. So difficult to imagine.

[Hannah Smith]

I mean, especially, like, they had a son, Chris, who was 16 at the time. I just can't even imagine, like, your mom dies, and then your dad gets cancer, you know, a couple years later.

[Patia Eaton]

It's devastating, and you're living with a new family, trying to find your place there. It's just your whole world turns upside down.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Patrice says that Joe said to him at that time, I can't lose another father because the cancer is really serious. At this point in time, Joe starts, like, acting out. He drops out of swimming. He gets kicked out of school because he has weed in his backpack. You know, his mom says he was experimenting with alcohol and drugs and having sex. She tried to talk to him, but she described what she said to him in the trial, and it really just sounds like, you know, she was kind of like, actions have consequences, and you shouldn't do this. This is not Christian. Like, why are you behaving this way? Clearly, she just had no idea what to say to him or how to deal with this. And her husband now has terminal cancer.

[Patia Eaton]

He needed professional help.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So Joe's stepdad has a surgery. Everyone's hopeful about it. It doesn't end up going well, and it becomes clear that this is gonna be terminal. So at that point, Patrice and Ken do contact a social worker to have all of their kids speak to. Because they know that Ken is going to die, and so they want their children to speak with someone. So Jo did speak with a social worker, says two to three times. It seems like he didn't really open up to her. At one point, Patrisse also contracted a nutritionist for Ken, but also had the nutritionist provide some herbs and vitamins for Joe. She was hoping that that might help him.

[Patia Eaton]

It's so sad, right? Because you're like, okay, here is this mom who is noticing that her son needs help. She's also now probably still grieving the loss of her first husband, Keith. Now the fact that Ken, her second husband, is terminally ill. You know, you're trying to stay above water. You're trying to get your kid help, but. But you don't know what to do. You've never. There's no playbook for this.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great point. It's really important to remember because, like, it's so easy in these scenarios to blame the parents. And it's clear that, like, she didn't make all the Right. Decisions. But also, like, yes, she had a lot going on. And I think it's important to take the context of, like, the culture she was raised in. She was raised in an environment where, like, men are the head of the household. They're the ones that handle everything. They make the decisions. They're in charge. And then she lost her husband, and suddenly she didn't really know how to lead or be in charge or help her kids. So then she, you know, got married to another man. And I think that was comforting to her. She talked about how that was really her focus at the time was to try to, like, work on this marriage. And I think that she believed that would help her sons in some way.

[Patia Eaton]

Right, right. Like, here's this new father figure for you and more stability than we would have had otherwise. And then you lose it all a second time.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So the herbs and vitamins don't help. Joe, he's 15 at this point. He starts to run away. At one point, he goes through his mom's purse, takes some money. He gets on a bus to Los Angeles toward the airport. He has some kind of loose plan to get on a plane and leave, but he doesn't know where he would go. So he calls his mom and is like, you know, come pick me up. When I hear this story, it's just so sad to me. Cause it's like he's not trying to do anything violent. He's just, like, in desperate need of help. And he's like. Then calls his mom to be like, come get me. You know, I ran away.

[Patia Eaton]

It's like waving this flag like, I need help from you. I need help.

[Hannah Smith]

He runs away a few weeks later, but he ends up just being at, like, his pastor's house, who also has a son his age. And he's sort of just there for a few days. And while he is, you know, run away, his mom knew where he was. She talked to him on the phone. And then his stepdad passed away. So two days after his stepdad passed away, Patrice, along with some friends of the family, go and pick up Joe, where he was staying. In her words, they basically kidnap him. And they get on a plane to St. Louis, Missouri, and then get in a car and drive to Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy to drop him off. She had heard about this through some friends at church, and I think that she just didn't know what else to do. And so she thought that this was a place that would help him. Later on, after everything happened, there was a psychiatrist who evaluated Joe, and basically Said that he believed he had major depression that had started when his dad died and was just getting worse and worse. And said that once he got to Mountain park, you know, Joe was just surviving at that point. You know, we've heard from Meg Richter in last episode about what all was going on at Mountain Park. It was clearly not a place where there was a lot of care given to struggling teens. It was a lot of structure and discipline and abuse at a time when.

[Patia Eaton]

He really needed stability and compassion.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And someone to just allow him to grieve and help him through that process. But instead it was just more.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, exactly. But you know, he did fine there. Like, he. He seemed to be adjusting. He was kind of going through the motions. And after being there for a while, he got promoted to orientation guide, which is the program where students are in charge of other students that Meg talked about. He was assigned a student to be underneath him that he was supposed to be guiding Will Futrell. He also met this student named Anthony Rutherford. Anthony was three years older than Joe. Joe was 15. Anthony was 18. So a legal adult, but still at Mountain Park. So this leads us to March 25, 1996. The day started out pretty normally. They woke up, they went to school, and then they broke for lunch. It's around lunchtime that Joe said that Anthony approached him and told him that he had a plan to take over the school later that day. When you hear about the plan, it's disturbing. The plan was to somehow take over the school to locate firearms. I don't know if they knew that there were firearms somewhere or just assumed. That's unclear. And then they were going to break into the girls side of Mountain park, which was locked from the outside, like fenced in. It's interesting that like the girls were.

[Patia Eaton]

Fenced in, like literal prison.

[Hannah Smith]

And the guys were not. They could kind of roam around outside. So they were gonna break into the girl's side and like have sex with them is what they said.

[Patia Eaton]

Which like also it is. It's a disturbing plan that's really hard. Trap your mind around. But you have to remember, we have to remember, like they are in a psychological war zone. Like they are being sleep deprived, they're not being fed adequately, they're being verbally abused, they're being physically abused. They're being manipulated to abuse one another.

[Hannah Smith]

Yes.

[Patia Eaton]

There becomes this like, after speaking with Meg and learning about others experiences there, it's like you lose sight of reality when you are in that situation. Because your new reality is just Mountain Park. And what goes on there. And you're not thinking about the real world outside and the real consequences. You're thinking about the consequences at Mountain park, where it's, in a way, lawlessness. You're being beat at a place that is supposed to help you. There is no real rhyme or reason 100%.

[Hannah Smith]

And you're being forced to physically abuse other students. And when you're an orientation guide, you're abusing the student who you're supposed to be guiding, as Meg talked about. And I think, like, one of the things that goes to show just what you're saying, this mindset of really, hopelessness, is that part of the plan was that if there was, like, some sort of police standoff, they're envisioning all of this, that they would die by suicide. This is their plan. This is like their dream and goal. Like, it's so dark and hopeless, really. And it's sort of unclear if Jo even believes that this will happen or is even that excited about it. But he's so hopeless at this point that he is like, okay, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's take over the school. Originally, it seems like Will Futrell, the student who Joe is in charge of, has agreed to go along with this. But at some point he changes his mind. He's like, no, this isn't a good idea. I don't want to participate in this. So that afternoon, around 3:30pm Will, Joe and Anthony all go out to the woods by Mountain park to collect firewood, which is one of their jobs they'd been assigned. And, you know, Joe said that they walked down this trail and essentially Joe and Anthony attacked Will at that time and killed him using a brick and then a knife. And, yeah, brutally murdered him and left his body in a ditch.

[Patia Eaton]

And like, if you are Will's parents, this is a place you sent your child to be safe, to be protected.

[Hannah Smith]

I know. And Will had only been there three months.

[Patia Eaton]

It's amazing how quickly this all transpires. It's like that morning Anthony reveals his plan to Joe.

[Hannah Smith]

Joe.

[Patia Eaton]

Anthony's three years older than him. That's a huge gap at that age. Maybe you don't wanna cross someone who's about to take over a school or attempt to with firearms. And then you do this inexcusable crime and you murder someone simply for not wanting to go along with your terrible plan and it impacts the rest of your life.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it's definitely inexcusable. I mean, it's horrible. But I do think that it's important to look at the environment of Mountain park that we've talked about. And that was not looked at in the trial at all. It was not mentioned. It was not talked about. Nothing. So you know what happens after they murder Will? They look around for some guns. They try to break into a staff member's house. There's no guns in there. They think that there might be keys in car ignitions, but they look and there's no keys. It's like, this has clearly not been very well planned at all. And then they're just kind of standing around and a staff member sees them and sees that they look really disturbed, Goes up and talks to them and asks them, like, what's going on? Are you okay? And they essentially admit to him exactly what they've done. He contacts Sam Gerhardt, and together they all go and walk down the trail and they show them Will's body and confess to the crime. And so the staff members immediately call law enforcement. The Wayne county sheriff's department was called and the Missouri state highway Patrol. And both boys are taken into custody and questioned separately. And they both confess. The crime happened about 3:30 in the afternoon. Joseph was taken into custody that early next morning, around 12:30 or 1:00am at Police Headquarters in Poplar bluff, Missouri. The officers videotape his confession. He's signed a confession. He's also signed a document that says that he's aware of his rights and that he doesn't want an attorney. This is later brought up in an appeals because he's 15 at the time, he was able to call his mom, and his mom told him to just do whatever Sam Gerhardt tells him to do at this point. Also, his mom has signed over power of attorney to Mountain Park. Right. So Mountain park is really in charge of him legally, but they're not standing in as his adult friend. Which is like the legal term, if a minor is in trouble and gets involved with the criminal justice system, they're allowed to have an adult person there with them, explaining things to them, kind of being on their side. And he has no one to do that for him. So he signs. He signs a document that says, I understand I'll be tried as an adult. He didn't understand that Anthony Rutherford took a plea deal. So Anthony Rutherford was 18 years old at the time.

[Patia Eaton]

A legal adult.

[Hannah Smith]

Yes, a legal adult. Which meant if he was convicted, he could be given the death penalty.

[Patia Eaton]

Right.

[Hannah Smith]

So he signed a plea deal basically saying that he could avoid the death penalty. But he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Joseph Burris took his case to trial, and he was also convicted and sentenced to life without parole, plus 50 years. And he was not eligible for the death penalty since he was only 15 at the time.

[Patia Eaton]

What they did to Will, committing a murder, obviously, there's no excuse, but it is shocking that the environment they were in at Mountain park didn't play a role in the trial, because how could it not? You know, you have these boys who were deemed by their families as really in need of a lot of help, having behavioral challenges, and then also just looking at the way Mountain park was operating, you put these young men, boys with behavioral problems together and say, now you manage each other and go off in the woods and get firewood. Like, such a lack of supervision, a lack of training, like, in what world did any of them have the ability to supervise another person? It was just a recipe for disaster. And most of all, the school did not protect will.

[Hannah Smith]

No, they did. Not at all. Meg told me. And she got this information from Joseph Burris because she visited him in prison a few years back. I actually wasn't able to verify this, but according to Meg, who said that Joseph Burruss told her that his attorney at the time was recommended by Sam Gerhardt and that he had been an attorney for Mountain park previously. So I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not, but nothing was brought up in the trial. The fact that Mountain park was promoting corporal punishment, the fact that Joe had been forced to already physically abuse will, that he was told to do this by adults regularly or he would be abused himself, feels really important to what happened here.

[Patia Eaton]

You're normalizing abuse, you're normalizing violence.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. And none of that was brought up. You know, none of it was talked about. In fact, it seems like the angle was to blame Joseph's mother. More so than anything, Joseph's attorney appealed the conviction in the year 2000. That was denied. After this 2012 Supreme Court decision, Miller v. Alabama, established that mandatory life in prison without parole sentences for minors is unconstitutional under the 8th amendment. Burris attorney then filed a petition claiming that his sentencing violated that Miller decision, But that was also denied. But then in 2021, just a few years ago, he had the opportunity to go before the parole board, and Meg Richter actually was in contact with him at that time, and she attended his parole hearing. She brought a written statement. She talked about the conditions at Mountain Park. I spoke with her on the phone recently about this, and she said that she felt a little bit conflicted. Will's sister was there. She didn't end up meeting her as she was in a separate room. And Meg was really clear that, like, she didn't want to condone what happened to Will. It's a tragedy. It's absolutely horrible. But she did feel that it was the right thing for her to do, to go there and just describe the environment of abuse that was happening at Mountain Park. And she said the parole board was really interested to hear that because they said that that was important context that they had never heard before. And, you know, Joseph Burris is currently 45 years old. He's been in prison for 30 years, and he actually will be released next year at some point. They don't have an exact release date yet, but the parole board did make that decision. So he will be out of prison next year.

[Patia Eaton]

30 years is a long time. But I can imagine for Will's family, who, you know, he will be gone more than 30 years. He will be gone for the rest of their lives. And that is just like, how terrible to send your child somewhere to help them and then they don't come home. It's terrible on all accounts. And we also now know that Anthony Rutherford died in prison in July of 2015. It just said foul play was not suspected in his death. And so, so much loss in one story. And, you know, also the Branch Davidians and that saga that plays out when the ATF goes in, that happened in 1993.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

And that was so, as we know, highly televised.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so hearing about Anthony Rutherford coming up with this plan to be this, like, Branch Davidian, like, leader of the girls in the adjacent Mountain park structure is like, okay, so you have this 18 year old who's being kept in a cult like environment. Physical abuse, verbal abuse, all sort of operating as this, quote, Christian organization. It's like he was in a culture. Doesn't excuse his actions.

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

But I'm reassured that the parole board was interested to hear that information because it does feel like important context to someone's psyche at that time. And Joe Burruss, he was only 15.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So young.

[Patia Eaton]

So young.

[Hannah Smith]

And context. It's all about the context. It's so important.

[Patia Eaton]

It's everything. Well, thank you so much for doing a deep dive on that story. You know, when Meg brought it up in her interview, it was just like, there's no sadder outcome than that. And to understand the environment there and how it impacted every person that was at Mountain Park, I think is crucial.

[Hannah Smith]

So we're going to wrap this episode up with Some recommendations. Pasha, what do you have to recommend today?

[Patia Eaton]

Well, you know, I always have something. I actually have another BBC podcast called Stocked. I am currently on episode eight and it's a well told story where actually one of the hosts is the victim of this stalker. And I'm really loving how much. Introspection. Is that the word? I should probably Google it. That there is from this person. Her name is Hannah.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, wow. I love it already.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, me too. About sort of her mindset when she began associating with the person who later became her alleged stalker. I'm really enjoying the storytelling there and how they're going about unraveling something that so much of it happens online. And when someone presents themselves to you as someone they're not, that's by design. How do you go about finding out who they really are when they've worked so hard to hide it? Yeah, I'm just. I'm really liking it.

[Hannah Smith]

Sounds really good. It's called Stocked.

[Patia Eaton]

Stocked.

[Hannah Smith]

I will check it out. So I want to recommend a docu series. My friend was just in town and she was telling me about it. She liked it, so I started watching it. I think it's really good. It's called Rich and Shameless.

[Patia Eaton]

Rich and Shameless?

[Hannah Smith]

Yes.

[Patia Eaton]

HBO Rich and Shameless. How have I not seen this? Sounds like something I would have definitely seen.

[Hannah Smith]

I haven't watched all the episodes yet, but I'm really into it. There's two seasons. The second season is all sports stories and, you know, I'm not that into sports, but when sports and true crime intersect, somehow I find that to be very interesting. They did an episode on Peggy, actually.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, wow.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Dennis Rodman's financial manager who stole money from him. We actually covered that story years ago on the Opportunist. So it was great to watch it. They did a really good job and.

[Patia Eaton]

Anything you didn't already know?

[Hannah Smith]

I don't think so. But they got some good interviews. It was really well done and there was like some video in there that I hadn't seen, so I recommend it. And the first season is kind of a mix of a lot of different stories. Like one of the episodes I watched is the Pam and Tommy story of like, how the tape was leaked, which is, you know, we all know that story, but it's so disturbing to really, like, think about what was really done to them. A lot of these stories are, you know, rich and shameless. They're like famous people that maybe you've seen a headline about something that happened to them. But this is like a deep dive into the whole story. So I find it really intriguing.

[Patia Eaton]

Cool.

[Hannah Smith]

I'll check it out and we will see you next week.

[Patia Eaton]

Thanks for listening. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is the knifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram henifepodcast or blueskyenifepodcast.

[Hannah Smith]

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.

[Patia Eaton]

And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[Patia Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Patia Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive producer produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[H]

Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the Psychology of your twenties. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your twenties hosted by me, Jemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gemma Speg]

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[I]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers. Known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s, her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.