The Knife: Off Record – 126

Summary

The Knife: Off Record – 126

Podcast Hosts: Hannah Smith & Patia Eaton
Release Date: September 25, 2025
Network: Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In this episode of “The Knife: Off Record,” hosts Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton dive into the ripple effects of crime as revealed through two captivating, listener-driven true crime stories. The first investigates an elaborate long-running financial scam led by a West Texas conman, while the second revisits the real-life nightmares faced by lottery winners – focusing on the infamous case of Tonda Dickerson. The duo brings empathy, humor, and a touch of skepticism as they deconstruct the human stories behind shocking crimes, followed by their recommendations for other podcast series.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Greenlight Scam: Tommy Lee Buckley’s Fraud ([02:18]–[48:43])

• Story Origins and Listener Contribution

  • The segment originates from a listener named Nick, who wanted answers about the scam his late father was caught in.
  • Nick shares memories: his father’s investment, the promise of a massive “payday,” and Nick’s near-involvement as a beneficiary ([03:08]–[05:02]).

• Who Was Tommy Lee Buckley?

  • West Texas native, college drop-out, small business owner, and eventually involved in the oil boom ([07:01]–[09:15]).
  • Partnered with Lou Driver to start “International Gas Recovery"; business ventures repeatedly failed, leading to financial desperation.

• Genesis of the Scam

  • Buckley and Driver meet “Mr. Edison Damenek,” an Indonesian lawyer claiming to possess “certificates” (supposedly U.S. government-issued) worth unfathomable sums ([10:43]–[13:21]).
  • They advertise “low interest business loans” in Amarillo; require a $500 pledge from locally hopeful business owners, morphing into a quasi-cultic group called “Greenlight” ([13:41]–[16:01]).

• Expansion and Manipulation

  • Monthly newsletters are sent nationwide; the language is cryptic, full of promises, conspiracy hints, and calls for secrecy.
  • Buckley quickly shifts to monthly fees ($50 initially, then $17), citing mounting “costs” ([18:40]–[19:37], [32:04]–[32:23]).
  • "There’s a dream that you're in on something." – Hannah Smith ([32:32])

• Cult-Like Dynamics

  • Newsletters amp up suspense and paranoia, blaming “enemies” (even the FBI) for project delays ([18:07]–[18:41]).
  • Greenlighters craved their monthly updates, with an almost social/entertainment fix.

• Authorities & Exposure

  • Buckley and associates try to authenticate the certificates at the Dallas Federal Reserve using fakes, including one apparently issued to Saddam Hussein. They’re arrested, but Buckley is undeterred. He spins the arrest as further proof of high-level conspiracy ([23:24]–[25:32]).
  • Expert testimony at trial exposes the certificates as “poor quality offset printing, stamp pads, and rub-on letters”—not government documents ([28:00]–[28:46]).
    • Notable Quote: “There’s one for $76 trillion payable to Gandhi, dated 1958, even though Gandhi died in 1948.” – Hannah Smith ([29:35])

• Scale and Profits

  • At its peak, Greenlight had over 3,000 paying members, generating over $50K/month ([39:11]).
  • Buckley used funds to buy luxury items and properties; listed assets soared to $3.1 million ([42:51]).

• Ethics, Victims & Community

  • Many Greenlighters, including Nick’s father, were elderly, isolated, or seeking belonging ([42:20]–[42:51]).
    • Notable Quote: “Being part of this green light group sort of gave him this feeling of connection and community and probably excitement every month when that newsletter came…” – Hannah Smith ([42:20])

• Downfall & Legal Consequences

  • Despite earlier arrests, it takes over a decade for authorities to act meaningfully.
  • In 2010, Buckley is indicted on 39 counts of fraud. By 2011, he’s found guilty on 24 counts—but dies by suicide before sentencing ([45:23]–[47:04]).
    • Memorable Moment: “He’s found guilty... and then... he had died by suicide.” – Hannah Smith ([47:03])

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2. The Curse of Lottery Luck: The Tonda Dickerson Story ([49:14]–[65:39])

• Tonda’s Unexpected Fortune

  • In 1999, single mother/waitress Tonda Dickerson gets a Florida lottery ticket as a tip and wins half of a $10M jackpot ([49:53]–[51:17]).

• Legal Vultures Circle

  • Co-workers claim there was a verbal lottery pool to split winnings; a jury briefly sides with them.
  • Alabama Supreme Court reverses: such gambling-based “contracts” aren’t enforceable ([54:46]).

• Series of Lawsuits & Threats

  • Even the tipper sues for a share; his claim is dismissed.
  • The IRS later sues for unpaid taxes, claiming Tonda should have reported the ticket as a gift.

• Kidnapping and Survival

  • Tonda’s abusive ex kidnaps her in 2002, tells her he intends to kill her for the money.
  • She shoots him in self-defense, then drives him to the hospital; shockingly, he is not charged ([56:09]–[58:20]).
    • Quote: “He tells her this... to kill her and take the money. How he planned to do that after killing her, I have no idea.” – Patia Eaton ([56:45])

• Aftermath

  • Tonda survives the ordeal but, like many lottery winners, finds the experience isolating and perilous. She keeps her winnings but faces a neverending barrage of claims.

• Lottery Winner Misfortunes: Other Cases

  • Jack Whitaker: Won $315 million (2002), lost it all, family died, victim of lawsuits, wished he’d torn up the ticket ([59:51]).
  • Evelyn Adams: Won twice in 1980s NJ, gambled everything away.
  • Jeffrey Dampier: Won $20M, kidnapped and murdered by his sister-in-law’s boyfriend ([61:01]).
  • Abraham Shakespeare: Won jackpot, murdered by a woman claiming she’d write his biography ([61:23]–[63:32]).
    • Quote: “I’d have been better off broke. I thought these people were my friends. I realized all they want is money.” – Abraham Shakespeare ([65:11])

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3. Analysis & Reflection

• Community, Vulnerability, and the Lure of Easy Wealth

  • Both stories reveal a longing for community (Greenlight) or security (lottery), exploited by charismatic cons or by fate.
  • Elderly or isolated individuals are especially at risk for becoming vulnerable to scams and criminal predation.

• Why Victims Stay Invested

  • Greenlight members paid for hope, entertainment, and a sense of secret knowledge.
  • Lottery winners often find their wealth a magnet for lawsuits, betrayal, and sometimes deadly violence.

• Hosts' Reactions

  • The hosts bring both empathy (“Maybe it was worth it for him to pay $17/month... connection and community" – Hannah, [42:20])
    and humor (“I’d be fine with $1 billion, trust me!” – Patia, [66:08]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Con Techniques:
  “He creates this intrigue... some of it will be sanitized... he’s blocking out, like, redacted.” – Hannah Smith ([32:54])

• On Loneliness and Scams:
  “Being part of this green light group sort of gave him this feeling of connection and community...” – Hannah Smith ([42:20])

• On Victim Blaming & Justice:
  “If you give someone a lottery ticket as a tip, you gotta just be okay that if they win, it's theirs.” – Patia Eaton ([53:14])

• On the Irony and Tragedy:
  “There’s one for $76 trillion payable to Gandhi, dated 1958, even though Gandhi died in 1948.” – Hannah Smith ([29:35])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:08] – Listener Nick’s account of his father and Tommy Buckley scam
• [07:01] – Buckley’s life story and transition to scam
• [13:41] – Launch of the “Greenlight” group and newsletter
• [23:24] – Attempt to authenticate certificates at Dallas Federal Reserve; arrest follows
• [28:00] – Expert debunking and trial evidence
• [42:20] – Discussion on loneliness, hope, and scam victims
• [45:23] – Buckley’s indictment, trial, and suicide aftermath
• [49:53] – Introduction of Tonda Dickerson’s lottery story
• [56:09] – Kidnapping attempt and self-defense shooting
• [61:23] – The story of Abraham Shakespeare
• [66:55] – Podcast recommendations segment

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Podcast Recommendations

• Patia recommends:
  “The Lodge” – An investigative series about a wellness cult and the blurred lines between influence and responsibility.

  • "Would you put your health in the hands of a cult?" ([66:55])

• Hannah recommends:
  “Blink” – The story of Jake Handle, addiction, a rare paralyzing disease, and being a locked-in witness to crime events.

  • “He’s completely aware of what’s going on... and this is where the true crime comes in.” ([70:18])

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Final Thoughts

This episode explores how hope, desperation, and loneliness can open doors for both conmen and calamity. Whether it’s believing in secret billion-dollar certificates or being blindsided by fortune’s dark side, the stories highlight the complexity of victimization – sometimes, the search for connection or happiness leaves people vulnerable to disastrous outcomes.

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For more untold stories and to connect, email the hosts at theknifexactlyrightmedia.com or follow @theknifepodcast on Instagram and Bluesky.

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Transcript

[Patia Eaton]

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[Hannah Smith]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Patia Eaton]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra.

[Hannah Smith]

See Mint mobile.com this story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[Patia Eaton]

Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm Hannah Smith.

[Patia Eaton]

And today we have two crime stories. One from you, maybe one and a half from me.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, interesting.

[Patia Eaton]

One and a half and then some recs.

[Hannah Smith]

All right, well, let's get right into it. Yeah, so I'm really excited about what I have to talk about today. This started when a listener named Nick emailed me. He'd actually been a listener of the opportunist years before and then a listener of the Knife. And he reached out and said that, you know, he had this question about this scam that his father was involved with and he wanted to get more information about it and wanted to see if I could find anything out about it.

[Patia Eaton]

And you were the lady for the job.

[Hannah Smith]

I said, I don't know. I'll try. So we ended up jumping on a video call together, and I recorded a little bit of what he told me about what he knew about the situation. And so I'm just gonna play a clip here for you.

[Patia Eaton]

Great.

[Nick (Listener)]

What I remember is that my dad, he discovered this thing that he was involved with that was going to pay him off big time. He explained that it was, like, this guy down in Amarillo named Tommy Buckley that had discovered some kind of, like, certificates, like treasury certificates, worth, like, billions, maybe trillions of dollars, and that somehow it was, like, illegal, and that Tommy Buckley had discovered this and he was going to sue the US Department of Treasury. I know that he was sending Tommy Buckley $17 US a month to receive a newsletter. And I remember my dad saying, and also seeing in the newsletters, the payoff is coming, payday is coming. And my dad, like, fully bought into it. And then he got sick. Like, he passed away in 2005. But as he was getting sick, he was like, nikki, remember, if I die before this comes to fruition, you are the beneficiary. You have to get in touch with Tommy, and, like, you're gonna get that. You're gonna get the reap the rewards. And I was like, okay. Okay, dad. Of course, nothing ever happened. My dad died. I then, like, maybe a couple years after he passed away, I looked up Tommy Buckley Amarillo, and I found his phone number, and I called him, and this, like, totally gruff Texan answered the phone, and I was like. I told him who I was. I told him who my dad was and that he had died. And he was like, oh, yeah, I remember Ken. He was a good green light member. He was. Oh, yeah, it was a good member. And then I was like, well, he told me that, like, I was the beneficiary to Treasury Gate or whatever. And he's like, yeah, yeah, that's true, but you'll need to send me the death certificate in the mail.

[Hannah Smith]

So ultimately, Nick didn't send his dad's death certificate. He was like, I was raising a kid. My life was busy. He also, in the back of his mind, was like, I think this is a scam. And then he looked it up a few years later, and this was after Tommy Lee Buckley had been indicted on fraud charges. And so since that happened, it's been over. Like, it's been 15 years since Tommy Lee Buckley was indicted.

[Patia Eaton]

But his original call, where he said this, like, gruff text and answers the phone, that was prior to Tommy being indict. A few years pass, then he looks back at it again and realizes he's been indicted. Yeah, okay, got it.

[Hannah Smith]

So he's probably like glad that he never sent his dad's death certificate or any of his personal information to Tommy Lee Buckley. But at this point in time, he is just curious what all was going on with this scam. There's not a ton of information online about it. There's like the justice.gov indictment information that talks about the fraud, but it's pretty vague. And he looked back to see if he had any of the old newsletters because I was really wanting to see those, obviously, but he couldn't find any. So he was just like, I'd love to know more information about what he was doing, if you can find anything. So I was like, I don't know, I'll give it a try. Did some googling. Not a whole lot of information out there. But then I was able to get court documents actually from the trial because he had a trial, multiple day trial. And I didn't get the whole trial, but I got three days. And these were three days that Tommy Lee Buckley himself was on the stand.

[Patia Eaton]

Love. When the defendant testifies, that's a gold mine.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. And so that was a lot of information and helpful to see, you know, his version of the story when he's talking with his own attorney and then when he's cross examined how, like there's just so many holes in the story. Right, right.

[Patia Eaton]

But Payday was coming.

[Hannah Smith]

But Payday was coming. And interestingly, at the trial, some of his long standing subscribers to his newsletter were there as witnesses and a lot of them still believed that Payday was still coming, that these certificates were real, and that it was just a matter of time, like even then. So it's a really, you know, it's interesting story about how this guy sort of runs this con and there's a lot of it that feels a little bit cult like to me, honestly. So let's get into it. So Tommy Lee Buckley, he's a west Texas guy. I couldn't find where he grew up, but he went to three different universities. Arlington State College, Texas Tech and Texas Christian University. He didn't actually end up graduating from any of them. No. He like spent a little time at one, transferred and transferred, and then ended up dropping out.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

Originally in the trial, he stated that that was because his mom was having financial difficulties, so he had to leave to help her. In the cross examination, he denies that and he says he Dropped out because he was offered a job. So I don't know. But what I'm gathering is that he didn't come from a lot of money. He ends up in the Amarillo area. He started his own business, a clothing store called Tom Buckley's men's Shop around 1970, and he had that for about five years before it went out of business. Then he. He works at another store, a clothing store, and eventually starts another chain of men's clothing stores with some business partners that lasts for a couple years and then goes out of business. By this time, it's 1980, and he decides to change careers completely. And in the 80s, there's this huge oil boom in west Texas. So all of a sudden, all of these huge companies, international companies, are swarming west Texas and starting to drill. And there's a lot of people who become like very wealthy suddenly because they own land or they own like oil rights, mineral rights to land that is like where there's a lot of oil discovered. Okay. And so he decides to get in on this and he becomes a right of way agent, which is like someone who helps secure land rights for drilling.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

And things are going well. He is an independent contractor. Then he goes, he gets a full time job. He's working in the oil industry. He got married in 1970, or 71 to his first wife. They had three kids, but they got divorced at some point. And then in 1990, he remarries a woman named Phyllis who he'll be with until the end. Okay. So, you know, he's working in oil and gas. It's the mid-80s. He meets this guy named Lou Driver, also known as Lewis Driver, but they call him Lou.

[Patia Eaton]

So they've got Tommy Buckley and Lou Driver. These are like names ripe for a con story.

[Hannah Smith]

100%. I'm like, this could be in the best way.

[Patia Eaton]

No offense.

[Hannah Smith]

No offense. Great names. So they partner up, they start a company called International Gas Recovery. I'm not going to get into what exactly they do. It's in the oil and gas industry.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, copy that. Moving on, moving on.

[Hannah Smith]

Not important. But they end up traveling a lot. They meet all different kinds of people working in this industry. They meet people from all over the world and. But eventually this business is also kind of going under in like 1989. And part of that is that the price of oil has dropped. And so this big oil boom is like kind of coming to a little bit of a halt. But not a problem for Tommy Lee Buckley and Lou Driver because they're about to get into a whole different business endeavor.

[Patia Eaton]

Business.

[Hannah Smith]

So this is where things start to get strange. Basically, what Buckley says on the stand is that his partner, Lou Driver, was in Los Angeles on business, and he met this guy named Mr. Edison Damenek.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

He's an Indonesian lawyer. And somehow they meet. And what I think happens is that Mr. Damenek, as he's referred to, starts to hear about all the wealth in West Texas, all the new wealth from all this. From this oil boom. So he is like, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret to Lou Driver. And he goes on to tell him that, you know, he has come into possession of financial instruments. They're referred to as different things. CDs, treasury notes, certificates is the most common way that Buckley ends up referring to them.

[Patia Eaton]

I've heard of CDs, yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Certificate of deposit. CDs, which is sort of like.

[Patia Eaton]

Never knew what it stood for.

[Hannah Smith]

Actually, now that you're saying, yeah, I was like, let me write this down. Cd. Fixed Interest Rate Savings Account. So I still don't really understand exactly what it is, but it's like money. It's like a certificate that represents money in a bank account. Right. And so he's like, I have all of these certificates, and some of them are worth billions of dollars. Billions. Some trillions. Like, the amount listed on these certificates is astronomical. And he says they were created by the US Government, but owned by foreign entities as well as rich, influential people across the world. And somehow he's come into contact with them or he has them. But it's complicated. You can't just walk into a bank and redeem them.

[Patia Eaton]

May I have $1 trillion, please?

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, I'll just go ahead and.

[Patia Eaton]

In. 20s.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, 20s. And he's also from Indonesia. He wants to redeem them in the US and he's looking for some locals to help him. And he thinks that Lou Davis and Tommy Lee Buckley are just the people for that. So you might be wondering, like, how he got these certificates.

[Patia Eaton]

I am, yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

And, you know, it's vague. Buckley says in court that some of them are Swiss. And the one in question, they talk about a lot, is worth supposedly $500 million. Swiss certificate. And he said he believed Mr. Damenek, who is from Indonesia and portrayed himself as highly connected, had received them from either the Indonesian government or some very wealthy Indonesian people. But for some reason, they'd chosen Mr. Damenek to be entrusted with these certificates, and it was his job to go figure out how to redeem them.

[Patia Eaton]

I feel bad for anyone who Actually has a Swiss bank account. Because, like, the context that I hear a Swiss bank account being used in, I'm like, guilty. Guilty on all charges. Run.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Okay. So he is convincing Tommy and Lou that he's the real deal.

[Hannah Smith]

He's the real deal.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

And who knows? Maybe at this point they really believe him, you know? Yeah, maybe they believe it the whole time. I have no idea. But they come up with a plan. So this is what they do. They go back to Amarillo and they put an advertisement in the local paper for low interest business loans. And they mentioned the ad in the court transcript. And right up top, it has, like, in big, you know, print, $500 million, and they're looking for applicants who want to start a business locally. And they're going to give them very low interest loans. Each applicant, it said, can be granted as much as 2.5 million and encourage people to apply. And there was, like, a number that they could call to get more information. And it also said something like limited spots, you know, of course.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

And so when people called, they were told, okay, there's going to be a meeting. They called it the executive summary meeting. And it's going to take place at Amarillo. And this is the date if you want to be invited to the meeting. It costs $200 to go. So 88 people show up to this meeting and they write proposals. And what the meeting turned out to be was, you know, they had these certificates on display at the meeting. And so it really turns into Tommy Lee Buckley, mainly convincing the room, selling them on this idea that these certificates are real. The US Government legally will have to redeem them. We have figured out this sort of loophole, and once we redeem these, that's where this low interest loan money is going to come from. But really, the loan is like a ruse. And everyone gets really excited about this idea. Oh, my gosh, we're going to be able to get super rich from this. He gets people on board. This is the very beginning of what he ends up calling Greenlight, which is his group. And he'll end up having some loyal followers who will continue to follow him and believe in this for 20 years after. Because this is 1990. So the people that are interested, he encourages them to give a $500 pledge, and they also give their mailing addresses. And he's like, I'm gonna keep you updated about this with this $500. You're in on this and that. So that when we redeem these, you'll get money back.

[Patia Eaton]

What kind of businesses do you know? Or was it just like, small businesses? West Texas?

[Hannah Smith]

He had a list of them that I didn't write down, but it was like oil and gas, agriculture, stuff like that.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay, yeah, $500 then. Small price to pay.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, if you think you're gonna get 2.5 million for your business. Right. So what begins is that he then starts sending out newsletters monthly to everyone who's given him money. And we're talking newsletters. We're talking physical newsletters. Pre Internet. You can't email. So he's writing these out, printing them, copying them, putting in envelopes and mailing them out to people. This would be the newsletter that Nick's dad would eventually get. Okay. Nick's dad was living in Canada at the time, so he was not at this meeting. I think he joined a few years later. But he would eventually have people from all over who were part of this green light. The newsletters were cryptic, and the first one he sent out thanked everyone for their pledge and said things like, you're going to receive a special compensation soon. He also talked about how this was highly confidential. But very quickly, the newsletters start to change the tone of them. You know, the next month, he's like, you know, if you haven't sent in your pledge yet, make sure to get it in. I have gotten really busy. I'm dedicating all of my time to this. And we start to see this narrative develop in his newsletters where he's really creating a world and, like, a story about what is happening here. And one of the things that pops up quickly is that there are, like, enemies who are trying to stop him from achieving this goal. In the second or third newsletter, he says, within the last four days, I have found out who complained to the FBI and began the tremendous problems we have. And he's like, writing about how they're threatening the project. But don't worry, he's not going to stop at anything. He's dedicated.

[Patia Eaton]

That's wild, because if I'm someone who was at that meeting and decides to give this pledge and I want this money, if I hear that the FBI knowing about it is a problem, I'm out. I'm done. You can keep my $500. I want no part of this.

[Hannah Smith]

You know, I don't have the newsletters. But I think a big part of the appeal and the lore around this is that it's like this secret that the US government is keeping from people that the US government legally has to redeem these CDs. But they're not going to want to just give it to any old regular citizen. They lost these, or I don't what happened, but somehow these certificates got out of control, and the US Government is going to try to cover this whole thing up.

[Patia Eaton]

Pesky US Government.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Typical.

[Hannah Smith]

And then, of course, he ends every newsletter with, like, the payout's coming soon. We're so close. I'm so excited. You know, thank you for being loyal to me. He says, I won't forget those who stand by me. I don't know that anyone actually reported to the FBI. Probably not. I think that he sort of was creating these scenarios where he was under attack. So then in December of 1990, which is like, a few months after the meeting, he has a newsletter where he's saying, my costs are more than expected. I'm having to pay for phones, fax, FedEx travel. He says, I spent $4200 alone on plane tickets this month. So now he's like, if you want to keep being part of this, you're gonna have to pay $50 a month. If you want to drop out, fine. I'll reimburse you all the money you've paid as soon as that first payment comes through with the cd. But if you want to keep in on this and this really important thing now, you got to pay me every month. And so people start paying him.

[Patia Eaton]

Dang.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So this continues to go on, and, you know, he is doing things to try to supposedly redeem these certificates.

[Patia Eaton]

So we're thinking at this stage in whatever is happening that he's a believer in the certificate he claims that he is.

[Hannah Smith]

And he's calling people. He's trying to make meetings with people who he thinks might be able to help him with this, like, bankers and stuff.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

And then he's writing about all of his efforts in the newsletter to keep everyone updated with what he's doing to try to, like, get them their big payout.

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[Patia Eaton]

Candice Rivera has it all.

[Hannah Smith]

In just three years, she went from stay at home mom to traveling the world, saving lives and making millions.

[Patia Eaton]

Anyone would think Candace's charmed life is.

[Hannah Smith]

About as real as unicorns. But sometimes the truth is even harder to believe than the lies. Not true.

[Patia Eaton]

There are so many things not true.

[Hannah Smith]

You've got to believe me. I'm Charlie Webster and this is Unicorn Girl, an Apple original podcast produced by Seven Hills. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.

[Patia Eaton]

Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Patia Eaton]

Whoa. This thing moves.

[Lenovo Advertiser]

Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech [e-mail] Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors. So you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.

[Hannah Smith]

He separates his green lighters, as they're called, into active and inactive. You know, Nick remembered his dad saying that he would call a number to get updates sometimes. And that's true. So Buckley used something called fax mail that was faster than the mailed newsletter. So if you wanted updates outside of the monthly newsletter, you called a number and then you would receive a fax automatically with updates on green light.

[Patia Eaton]

So he was writing a lot of letters.

[Hannah Smith]

He was really busy writing letters. Yeah, he was just like in publishing, basically.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow.

[Hannah Smith]

And he like no longer is working at any other job. This is his full time job. He gives himself a salary, you know, like he's doing things like he travels to Las Vegas to meet with some people who are selling a hotel that's in bankruptcy. And I don't know what his plan was, but obviously that he doesn't buy it. But he, you know, includes that in the newsletter and he flies to Mexico City to meet with someone who he thinks is gonna help him redeem these certificates that doesn't pan out. Okay, of course he writes about it. And the question really becomes, too, are all of these meetings real that he's writing about? Is he really flying to Mexico City? I don't know.

[Patia Eaton]

Stories from faraway places.

[Hannah Smith]

Like, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe not a telltale sign of a con. Well, I mean, this whole thing starts with the Indonesian government, supposedly, which, you know, faraway places that you can't verify, especially in the 90s. But there is one meeting that's real through his network. He ends up securing a meeting in Dallas at the Federal Reserve bank for July of 1991. So he brings these certificates along with Lou Driver. He brings these certificates to the U.S. federal Reserve bank and meets with people there and hands them over to them and is sort of like, we just want to confirm that these are legitimate.

[Patia Eaton]

Seems like a step that should have been taken a few steps ago, but.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, we're here, and we want you to use your resources to confirm these are legitimate. And here's the thing. One of the certificates that was supposedly created by the Federal Reserve bank is listed to Saddam Hussein. So he hands us over. I mean, he has this meeting at the Federal Reserve, and they're like, we'll take a look at them. And so then Tommy Lee Buckley and his people leave. What he ends up writing about and how he tells the story is that this gets them in trouble, and that someone from the Federal Reserve calls him back and says, these are real, but Saddam Hussein's assets are frozen in the U.S. so, unfortunately, we can't redeem this for you. That's what he says happens.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

And then he later says that, you know, they're having lunch and they're being followed by the Secret Service, and they get arrested. What is true about this story is that they were arrested, and they were probably followed because they brought fake certificates, you know, fake US Money into a bank and tried to cash them. And so they were followed, and they were arrested and taken to Dallas County Jail. And Buckley spent a week in jail.

[Patia Eaton]

He can't send any faxes. What are the people gonna think?

[Hannah Smith]

I know. Well, fortunately, this is, like, you know, before the Internet, so they're only getting monthly newsletters.

[Patia Eaton]

True.

[Hannah Smith]

So Mr. Damonik is not in Dallas. He's not with them for this whole thing, but he is in Austin, and he's apprehended and arrested. And what authorities quickly realize is that this all traces back to Mr. Damenek, that he's, like, the one who started this. And so everyone else is able to get out of J. Mr. Damonik is in prison for 70 days, and he has charges against him for being, like, the mastermind of all of this. But Tommy Lee Buckley is undeterred. He goes to Austin, and he visits Mr. Damonik in prison like, five or six times. And according to him, Mr. Damonik is insistent. No, no, the certificates are real. Like, they just don't want us to have them. Like, they're real. And does he believe this or not?

[Patia Eaton]

Man, I don't know. Like, you were just arrested.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And somehow the Saddam Hussein of it all, like, that doesn't make an alarm go off.

[Hannah Smith]

Right. And it only adds to the narrative that the US Government doesn't want you to know the truth. Right. And so this only, like, fans the fire for him. So he starts calling it Project Treasury Gate. That's when this happens. And he decides he's gonna sue the government for not redeeming these certificates. And he looks for a lawyer. Takes some time to find a lawyer. We'll take this case, as you can imagine. And the other thing he does is he writes a 250 page book and makes a videotape of him talking about Treasure Gate and spinning his, like, story. And he starts selling that for $100. And people are buying it. And one of the things he says in it is that he survived an assassination attempt.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh. So at the lunch where he was arrested and followed, is that where the assassination attempt was supposed to occur?

[Hannah Smith]

I think so, yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow.

[Hannah Smith]

But pretty good marketing, you know, scheme, you know, you were like, does he believe this? I don't know. You know, as I was looking into this, I wondered, like, is he just a victim of the scam? Like, did he meet Mr. Damenek and he was, like, totally convinced that this was real?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Or is he. Is he scamming people?

[Patia Eaton]

Hard to say.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So I wondered, like, maybe he just really believes this.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

But then I kept reading and it just seems, like, impossible because when Mr. Damonik was arrested, they confiscated many of the certificates and they actually had an expert analyze them to see if they were real. A physical and microscopic examination was performed. They were compared against United States Secret Service genuine specimen files, like real certificates of deposit, as well as those of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. And they were determined to be not genuine monetary certificates issued by the U.S. government. And it also said these documents were produced by a combination of poor quality offset printing, stamp pads and press or rub on letters and numbers.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, no. That's a bad day for Tommy.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. And he was there. He was at the court hearing. So he heard this being said. He heard this is not real.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay. So at this point, it's like, whether or not he believed it in the beginning, he's continuing to collect money from people, and now he knows it's not real.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. This doesn't make it into the newsletter update.

[Patia Eaton]

No, I imagine it wouldn't.

[Hannah Smith]

And he continues to spin this story and collect money for like, 16 more years from people. And the certificates are wild. They talk about them, you know, Saddam Hussein. There's also one in Fidel Castro's name. The former president of Uganda is one. But the prosecuting attorney points out that there are spelling errors, like people's names are spelled wrong.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, no.

[Hannah Smith]

There's one for $76 trillion payable to Gandhi, dated 1958, even though Gandhi died in 1948.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so Damonik, who's at the center of all of this, he's at this trial.

[Hannah Smith]

I don't know if he was at Tommy Lee Buckley's trial. I don't think so. I think he, like, fled the U.S. he was pretty much out of this whole scheme once he got arrested in Austin, and they were like, these aren't real. We've caught you. He's, like, gone. He's no longer part of it.

[Patia Eaton]

I see it. Yeah. Okay. Got it.

[Hannah Smith]

He was the impetus of this. But then once he leaves, Tommy Lee Buckley just, like, runs with this narrative. And he's already created this whole following. He has a brand.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay. And he's got a newsletter to keep up with.

[Hannah Smith]

He's got a newsletter. He's got monthly money coming in.

[Patia Eaton]

What does Phyllis think of this?

[Hannah Smith]

Phyllis is a nurse, but eventually she quits her job because they're making so much money.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

And she's helping him package the newsletter and sent him out. I don't know. Does she know it's a scam?

[Patia Eaton]

I would have a lot of questions.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So they're doing really well off this. It's not just like, they got some $500 pledges back in the 1980s, and they're riding the wave. Like, this is really continuing to grow on a global scale.

[Hannah Smith]

I don't know where all his subscribers come from. Probably mostly the US Maybe some Canada, maybe elsewhere.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. How did Nick's dad hear about it, do you know?

[Hannah Smith]

He heard about it on the radio, I'm pretty sure. So at a certain point, it stops becoming highly confidential, and Tommy Lee Buckley starts sort of advertising. This is what he's doing. You know, he had made that videotape and written that sort of manifesto and is selling it for $100. So he's making money off that. He is interviewed on local radio shows, and he's talking about this scheme, and the government is lying to us. So he's getting people reaching out to him because of that. And then every time that there is, like, getting arrested and this plan to now sue the US Government, that brings in money, too, because it's like, it's expensive to bring a lawsuit. But I Think this is important.

[Patia Eaton]

And at the end of it, you all get paid.

[Hannah Smith]

You're gonna get millions and millions of dollars. Right? Yeah. So what ends up happening is that he charges people $17 a month to be active Greenlight members. And if you stop paying the 17, then you're inactive. This means you'll still get some money because you've already paid him, but you're not gonna.

[Patia Eaton]

Money.

[Hannah Smith]

He doesn't really specify what that means. And you also don't get as many newsletters.

[Patia Eaton]

And what's $17 a month for that kind of hope?

[Hannah Smith]

You know, I mean, it is kind of a lot for, like, the 90s and early 2000s.

[Patia Eaton]

That's true. Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

It'd be like, what, $30 a month maybe now? I'm not really sure. Right.

[Patia Eaton]

Like, I've canceled subscriptions over less.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. But, yeah, you're right. It's like this dream that you're in on something. Okay. So if you are paying regularly, you're getting all of the newsletters and updates, and some of them are like. He's like, I have a big update coming. I've just got in contact with an important person, and I'm about to send out a newsletter. But some of it will be. It will be sanitized, is the words. And so he's like, blocking out some of it. Like, you would, like, redacted.

[Patia Eaton]

But he's writing it. So he could have just left everything out to begin.

[Hannah Smith]

Or it'll be like, I got this letter from so and so, but I'm gonna redact it. So he's creating this intrigue. So if you're not an active member, you don't get the newsletters. But every once in a while, he'll send out a newsletter to everyone and sort of tease what they're missing.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay. It's like, they don't have the reality shows that we do right now. Like, this is exciting.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

This is like a monthly sort of mystery.

[Hannah Smith]

Totally. That's like, updating you on some secret conspiracy in the US Government, and you're getting updates, and it's. I mean, they are paying for, like, entertainment in some ways, you know, but. Except that. But he's telling them that this is an investment.

[Patia Eaton]

Yikes.

[Hannah Smith]

So he does sue the U.S. government. He files a lawsuit in 1993, includes one of the CDs that's worth $278 billion. And of course, the lawsuit's just completely dismissed. In 1994, a judge noted the note was fraudulent and that, quote, any reasonable person who investigated would have known that. And it seems like the judge is like pretty upset that this lawsuit was ever brought because the judge orders Buckley's attorney to pay for the other side attorney fees, which is 10,000 additional dollars.

[Patia Eaton]

Oops.

[Hannah Smith]

So this whole thing costs him $40,000. And all that money is coming out of the money that the greenlighters are giving him their investment that he's supposedly taking care of. Okay, so around 2001, it's estimated that he has 2,733 members in one of his groups and like another thousand in his sort of inactive group that are sometimes giving money. It's a pretty big operation to send out of these newsletters. He also has started a telecommunications business called Com M Group and it has capacity for 800 voicemail system. It's like a voicemail system. People pay $20, $25 a month to have a voicemail box.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh my gosh. Imagine what you'd pay now not to.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, I know. To never have to listen to a voicemail ever again.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Oh my God. That's a million dollar idea.

[Hannah Smith]

That's a subscription that we need to start.

[Patia Eaton]

Seriously.

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[Patia Eaton]

Ugh. Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Patia Eaton]

Whoa. This thing moves.

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[Hannah Smith]

And so his wife is working for him. He has like a full time employee, he's giving himself a salary, and he's sort of still trying to sell these certificates. Ish.

[Patia Eaton]

Even after a judge has said these are absolutely not real. And any reasonable person would know that.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, in the beginning he was like meeting with bankers. He was going to the Federal Reserve. At this point, the people that he's meeting are not reputable people. Like, he meets these brothers in Canada who swear they can redeem these certificates and he ends up paying them $75,000, but they can't. He also says that he goes to Germany to meet someone and he ends up feeling like his life is threatened. So he pays that guy $50,000 and flees the country. And it's sort of like, okay, is he being scammed by other scammers at this point?

[Patia Eaton]

He seems like he's in this in between of scammer and victim. Yeah, because just the fact that he is paying other people that kind of money makes me question, like, does he get it or is he just similarly to those people who are at the trial, still believing, like, is he just that sort of unwilling to let go of the dream that all this money is coming? Yeah, but in the meantime, I mean, I don't know, how many subscriptions did you say that he had or how many members?

[Hannah Smith]

I would estimate he had like 3,000.

[Patia Eaton]

Cause if he had 3,000 members and they're paying $17 a month, that's $51,000 a month. I mean, at the time. And also probably where they live, like, that's a lot of. I mean, that's a lot of money, period. Even right now.

[Hannah Smith]

But like, wow, in 2001 in West Texas. No, that's where.

[Patia Eaton]

A ton of money.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, a ton of money.

[Patia Eaton]

It's a ton of money. Now, don't get me wrong. But like, then that's like, unbelievable.

[Hannah Smith]

That's enough money to pay his salary, to pay a full time employee, and to live like a very nice life and save money. Right? And so, yeah, I don't know, like, when. When I hear about, okay, he paid these brothers $75,000 to try to redeem these certificates, it's like, is that true? Is that not true? I don't know if there's paperwork to support that. Did he just write that in his newsletter?

[Patia Eaton]

Am I getting scammed? Cause I was like thinking, y. He probably did pay them, but I don't know. Did he?

[Hannah Smith]

Well, I don't know. I don't know. I think he might have. And the only reason I think that is because they do have on record that at one point he takes money out of one of his businesses, the telecommunication business, as well as money that has been given by the greenlighters. He takes $200,000 and he invests it with this person named Mr. Enwia. He's a real person. I looked him up. He was the president of the Worldwide Equity Corporation. And apparently this guy is like promising him insane returns on his investment. Like, this is going to turn into multiple millions of dollars red flag, like in matter of a year.

[Patia Eaton]

Right.

[Hannah Smith]

And so he gives him this money and then his money disappears and this guy disappears and he loses it. He loses $200,000 on this investment thing. And when I looked this up, this guy was running a scam and he was caught by the SEC and lost his job. He was running like a huge scam.

[Patia Eaton]

It's like, hasn't Tommy been down this road before?

[Hannah Smith]

So Tommy is like, yeah. Is he believing he was taking money out and investing it and trying to make more money off of this? So this was like he was conned by this investor, but it also seems like he was paying people to try to redeem these certificates. And so is this a situation where he just had convinced himself it was real to not feel guilty about how he was just like conning all these people? Yeah, I don't know.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow, that is nuts. And, I mean, I don't know how old Nick's father was when he became a member, but I wonder if a lot of the people who started sending him money after he started advertising and it was no longer confidential, if they were elderly, if he was taking advantage of more vulnerable populations. Obviously things were a lot different then. You couldn't get on in Google and find a whole Reddit thread about someone if they were up to no good. But, I mean, month after month of the same thing in different scenarios would be troublesome for sure.

[Hannah Smith]

Nick did say that his dad lived alone for a long time, was very, like, lonely and sort of struggled with depression, and also was living in Canada, but was born in the US and that being part of this green light group sort of gave him this feeling of connection and community and probably excitement every month when that newsletter came to read, like, what other intrigue is happening? And so in some ways it's like, well, maybe it was worth it for him to pay $17 a month.

[Patia Eaton]

That's so true. It's like Facebook of the moment.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, totally.

[Hannah Smith]

So as far as, like, how much money he is making in trial, they look at his financials, and in 2003, he bought a BMW for $46,000. He and his wife bought a house in aberdeen, Texas, for $450,000. In 2004, he listed his assets as 1.3 million. And then by 2007, it's listed as 3.1 million. He's like a member of multiple country clubs, living a pretty fancy life in West Texas. And another part that he always talks about is when he gets this big payout, he's going to give most of.

[Patia Eaton]

It to charity, not to the people who have been hanging on every word he has said for years and years and years.

[Hannah Smith]

That's what I wondered, too.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, my gosh.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. He's going to give at least a trillion dollars to charity.

[Patia Eaton]

Well, that. That's so kind of him.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. But when they looked at his financials, interestingly enough, he had hardly ever given any money to cherubs.

[Patia Eaton]

That's shocking.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. By 2007, he still has the same story he updates. This is amazing. I have so much information to share with you. I know who the good guys are. I know who the bad guys are. And he's just like, it's just around the corner. Maybe this is the last update because maybe you're gonna get paid next month. The story has evolved now. At some point, he says he sends the certificates to Europe with someone who's trusted to car them, and they're with the UN and there's this big international plan at some point to cash them out and totally get rid of all US Debt. It doesn't make any sense. But his lore has become bigger and grander. And part of this, I think, is that by 2007, 2008, he's now on the Internet, and he's now connecting with other people who are also sort of interested in similar topics. He starts reading a lot about the Illuminati and. And his newsletters sort of reflect this. He has all this code and stuff that he starts putting in them. He refers to this one person who's an insider kind of person who he calls White Rosetta Stone, WRS for short. He writes in one letter. WRS has introduced me to two very, very important but secretive individuals who are critical to our success. But in court, when they ask him about this, he admits that WRS is just this woman named Carol that he met online, and they like to chat about their theories.

[Patia Eaton]

That's actually. Carol is fascinating to me. Now, does she know that she's WRS in these newsletters?

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, like, is this. Was this, like, exciting for Carol?

[Patia Eaton]

Carol, if you're listening, reach out.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, Carol, we want to talk to you.

[Patia Eaton]

Wow.

[Hannah Smith]

At some point, this catches the attention of the FBI and they start an investigation. And in 2010, he's indicted by a grand jury on 39 counts. He's charged with mail fraud, frauds, and swindles related to his operation of a fraudulent investment scheme. And he's 63 years old at this point point. From justice.gov, between 2004 and 2008, he deposited approximately 2.8 million, consisting of monthly checks and money orders into his account. So that's only four of the 20 years.

[Patia Eaton]

Right.

[Hannah Smith]

You know, he was paying his wife his salary. He had about 1800 members at that time, they estimated, and that he misappropriated funds from this investment and was living a lavish lifestyle. So in 2011, he goes to trial, and the first day he shows up and when he has to testify and he's, like, really sick, he talks about how he has had this accident the year before, and he had brain damage. And so his memory isn't as good, so he might not remember details. And it's like, maybe he did, but it's hard to believe someone who's been lying and scamming for so long.

[Patia Eaton]

I would actually say I don't believe him at all.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, he has a walker. He's doing the whole I'm like, this week, old man thing. But it doesn't end up mattering. He is found guilty on 24 counts of mail fraud. The government is, like, seizing his assets, and I don't honestly know what happened, like, how this happened, but, okay, so he was found guilty, and then the next day it just says he was supposed to show up for a seizure of his assets, that there was a meeting, and he did not show up. Why wasn't he arrested when he found guilt? I don't know, but he had died by suicide.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, that's awful.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So he never ended up, you know, going to jail. He wasn't even sentenced yet. Although the sentencing that he likely would have gotten would have been at least 20 years for all of this and a hefty fine, essentially.

[Patia Eaton]

Like the rest of his life.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not 100% sure, but it seemed like his wife was gonna leave him as well, so it just sounded like he, like, didn't have anything left. And some money was recovered for the victims, but I don't think it was very significant, and that's that.

[Patia Eaton]

You know, what shocks me about that story is that back when he takes these certificates into the bank, and they're like, these aren't real, and then he's arrested. I'm surprised that so much time passed between that point and his story. And when the FBI catches on all these years later, and then he's, you know, charged with. With fraud, it seems like it wouldn't have taken very much to stop him earlier. But no disrespect to the FBI. I'm sure they're very busy. But if a guy brings fraudulent certificates for a trillion dollars into the bank. I know. Maybe it's one of those things where it's like, this is so outrageous, we don't even need to concern ourselves or something. I don't know. But that's weird.

[Hannah Smith]

And maybe they thought, well, you got a slap on the hand. You spent a night in or a week in jail, I think, and so now you'll learn your lesson. But then he's, like, advertising it on the radio.

[Patia Eaton]

He learned nothing.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Said a week in jail. Yeah, no problem.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So I hope that answers Nick's questions about Tommy Lee Buckley.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I imagine Nick never received a payout.

[Hannah Smith]

Never. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. That's disappointing. But I would have done the same thing if I was him. I would have been like, I wonder what that was. Because also, at the time, you know, even when our parents are aging, it's like, you don't Want to make them feel silly for believing something.

[Hannah Smith]

Totally.

[Patia Eaton]

And what can you say? It's like if his dad was lonely and this was entertaining for him, not like it was okay, but maybe he got something out of it.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So my story is in a different world, but similar in that money makes people go absolutely haywire.

[Hannah Smith]

It really does.

[Patia Eaton]

And I would love the opportunity to show everyone that I'm different.

[Hannah Smith]

That you're different.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Give me money. See how responsible I am.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. This story begins in 1999 in the small town of Grand Bay, Alabama, which has a population of less than 4,000 people. And, you know, the surrounding land is. Okay. I feel like I looked up how to say this word, because I know that there's different ways of pronouncing it. Pecan orchards.

[Hannah Smith]

Pecan.

[Patia Eaton]

Pecan.

[Hannah Smith]

I say pecan, but I think. I think probably in Alabama. Did they say pecan?

[Patia Eaton]

Well, I don't.

[Hannah Smith]

I don't.

[Patia Eaton]

I feel like it'll come off as. I'm not trying to say it wrong. Pecan orchards and fields of watermelon. So In March of 99, a woman named Tonda Dickerson is waiting tables at the local Waffle House. And for her, it's an ordinary day. A regular diner comes in by the name of Edward Seward. And he stopped by pretty frequently to get coffee in the morning. And in one report I saw, he was a long haul trucker. In another one, he owned a seafood restaurant.

[Hannah Smith]

Interesting.

[Patia Eaton]

Couldn't pin it down. But apparently a thing that Edward did sometimes is instead of a cash tip, he would leave a lottery ticket. And so this lottery ticket was one that he had purchased in Florida.

[Hannah Smith]

That's pretty cute.

[Patia Eaton]

It's cute. Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

I mean, probably better to give cash.

[Patia Eaton]

Better to give cash. I think a lottery ticket in addition. Great.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And Tonda's a single mother at this point, so she has recently left an abusive relationship. That was in 1997. So she's been on her own for two years. She's working all the time to make ends meet. She probably would have rather had the cash. And in a way, I'm actually gonna tie back to that. But basically, there was a $10 million jackpot. There were two winning tickets, and Tonda's tip was one of them.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

So that's wild.

[Patia Eaton]

It's wild. Can you imagine?

[Hannah Smith]

I would be so excited. Oh, my gosh.

[Patia Eaton]

I know. I don't know what I'd do first, but. So she. She goes home from this shift and wakes up, you know, a multi, multi millionaire, and this amount of money. Life changing for just about anybody. For Tonda, it's no exception. And she knows that. And she wants to take. Instead of the lump sum, her plan is the annual payments so that she doesn't end up one of those people who wins a lottery and goes broke or has something terrible happen in her life. She wants to be responsible about it. She wants to help her family. But when she arrives at the lottery office in Tallahassee, Florida, to collect her winnings, she is denied. And that is because four other waitstaff at the Waffle House filed a claim that said through the courts in Alabama, that said, we had an agreement. Now, if any one of us won the lottery, we split it. And Tonda says, no, we didn't. And so they.

[Hannah Smith]

How did they know she won?

[Patia Eaton]

I don't know if she told them or if it was just obvious, but she quit immediately. And I would think in a little.

[Hannah Smith]

Town, you gotta pretend like nothing has changed.

[Patia Eaton]

Nothing has changed. Yeah. And I would just imagine word traveled really fast. Like, if you tell one person, they tell one person. I mean, whoa, it's over.

[Hannah Smith]

So already, by the time she tries to go collect, this lawsuit or complaint has been filed.

[Patia Eaton]

And so before she even has a moment to breathe and enjoy this new life, she's in a legal battle. And so Florida has to withhold this money until this is resolved. Another person also files a lawsuit, which is Edward Seaward, the person who lost the tip. And he says that he was owed a portion of it and she promised him a new truck if she won. And that lawsuit was later dismissed.

[Hannah Smith]

But, like, that's unbelievable.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Immediately, these vultures are descending on this woman.

[Hannah Smith]

If you give someone a lottery ticket as a tip, you gotta just be okay. That if they win, it's theirs.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I know. I mean, you have a single mother here working to support her household alone, left in an abusive relationship, and you're not giving her cash, you're giving her a lottery ticket. So, like, you gotta stand by that.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Wild. So there was actually a jury trial in April, so things moved really quickly in this case, and the jury decided that Tonda did have this verbal agreement with her colleagues, and she was ordered to pay them. So this is upsetting, but the fight's not over yet. They appeal the decision, and the Alabama Supreme Court actually ends up reversing the judgment against her in 2001. Because. I'll read the. And we'll probably have to cut this down. But the agreement between the parties was nothing more than an attempt by each of the five Lottery ticket holders to increase his or her odds of winning some portion of the Florida lottery. Stated differently, the agreement, according to the plaintiff's own evidence, was that Dickerson would pay the plaintiffs a sum of money upon the happening of an uncertain event over which the party had no control. So basically, this whole supposed agreement was founded on a gambling consideration, which in Alabama, the Supreme Court rules, is therefore void because you're all gambling. So we're not going to honor this as a real agreement.

[Hannah Smith]

You can't make a legit agreement when you're gambling.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, you can't. And Tonda has remarried by this point, and she has her new husband, James.

[Hannah Smith]

And so how long has passed since she won the or, like, she got the ticket?

[Patia Eaton]

March of 1999. Winning ticket, April of that year. She's already in court. And then I believe she remarried pretty quickly, but I couldn't find an exact date. But maybe she had already been dating this first time. No idea. But anyway, Tonda is then sued by the irs, who says that she owes over a million in taxes for not reporting the money as a gift. So she has to hire a lawyer again to fight the irs. And she's saying. Her lawyer is saying, well, look, she was tipped a lottery ticket that could have been worthless and statistically would have been worthless. And she was literally working for this money because waiters are paid in tips. So Tonda is, by all accounts, like a very responsible lottery winner. She goes and gets another job. She decides to take the annual payments instead of the lump sum. She sets up a business account that she's able to pay family from and at certain percentages. And her ex husband or ex partner, I'm not sure if they were married. The abusive relationship that she left, this guy's name is Stacey. He finds out that she's one, and he is angry.

[Hannah Smith]

Of course he wants in on it.

[Patia Eaton]

Of course. Yeah. And so he knows he has no legal standing here. We also know that he's abusive. And so what does he do? In February of 2002, he kidnaps Tonda and he waits outside her house. And when she leaves, he forces her into his car and begins driving her to a rural area. And his plan is, and he tells her this, to kill her and take the money. How he planned to do that after killing her, I have no idea. So Tondashe already knows what this person's capable of because she was in a relationship with them.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Horrible situation.

[Patia Eaton]

Horrible. So she was ready, and she was carrying a gun.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so 20 minutes into this Drive. I think it's Tonda's phone that's going off. Somebody's phone is going off. And she's able to convince him that she needs to answer it because I think it's her phone. Because if she doesn't, people will start wondering where she is. And that could be a problem for him. So he's like, okay, fine, answer it. Well, when she reaches for the phone or when he reaches for the phone, she grabs a gun and he lunges at her and she fires and she hits him in the chest. She then drives him to the hospital.

[Hannah Smith]

I mean, this is someone who's driving the car. She shoots him.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And then she somehow drives him to the hospital to get emergency care for this gunshot wound. Wild. And she is not charged in relation to any of this because it was self defense. But here's something that's really strange. He wasn't charged either for kidnapping. I couldn't a single charge on him that had been reported on or in the court system. So if I'm wrong, I would love to correct that record, but I couldn't find anything on that. That's so strange to me because it's like if you can rule that someone shot someone in self defense, then surely you can rule that that person that they shot was doing something that warranted that.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. I wonder if it was like she would have to press charges and she didn't.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I had no idea.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, that's wild.

[Patia Eaton]

Wild. And so at one point, I had reached out to Tonda and she never got back. I imagine she's just, you know, she's probably told this story a lot, but, you know, she's still working, she's living a quiet life. I mean, I think by any stretch, she probably handled it as gracefully as one could have, considering what happened to her.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And I think it was four people that came after the money that worked at the same diner. Maybe it was five. But still, to have all of those people saying one thing and you going up there and saying another must have been really scary.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. And you think these people are your maybe friends, your co workers?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

So did they ever get any of that money before it was reversed?

[Patia Eaton]

No, they didn't. So Tonda got to keep it. She ended up having to pay the IRS, I think around 700,000 because of the way she opened her business account or something. But I feel like they probably would have found some way to tax. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna say that's not on her. So Tonda's story is obviously One of a kind, because that is insane. And she came out alive. But it's actually not that uncommon of story for a lottery winner to be like doomed. It's common enough that there's several examples which I found, and one of them I'm going to talk about a little more in detail. But we have a guy named Jack Whitaker in West Virginia who won over $300 million.

[Hannah Smith]

That's so much money.

[Patia Eaton]

So much money. And this was in 2002, a Powerball jackpot he immediately hit with a series of lawsuits. Close family members around him died. And four years later he's broke and says that he wished he had just torn up the ticket. Like that's how bad his life got. I mean, that's just like a nightmare.

[Hannah Smith]

Nightmare.

[Patia Eaton]

$315 million.

[Hannah Smith]

How you even go broke from that so quickly is hard to even imagine.

[Patia Eaton]

It's spectacular. Yeah, I have to imagine it's just like if you have that kind of wealth, it probably feels very never ending. But then people come out of the woodwork and maybe you get in over your head with taxes. I have no idea. But there was a woman named Evelyn Adams who won the lottery in New Jersey actually two years back to back. And I think she won a total back to back. Back to back in two separate years. And this is in the 1980s, it was around five and a half or $6 million. And she gambled it away. Tricky. Yeah, I mean, gambling can be such a serious problem. A guy named Jeffrey Dampier, I think is, how you say, his last name in Illinois. He was kidnapped and murdered by his sister in law and her boyfriend less than 10 years after winning $20 million, which happened in 1996. Terrible. And okay, so there's another story I want to talk about a little bit which is a man by the name of Abraham Shakespeare.

[Hannah Smith]

Is this also a lotto story?

[Patia Eaton]

This is also a lotto story with just. I mean, it's tragic actually. So in 2006, he wins the lottery. There's similar to Tonda, an immediate dispute with the person who bought the tickets with him. I guess if I'm understanding it correctly, his coworker buys two tickets. But like at his request, can you go in and buy two tickets? Okay, here's a ticket. And so one of the tickets ends up winning.

[Hannah Smith]

Ah, yeah. And then the co worker's like, wait, I want some of that money.

[Patia Eaton]

Exactly. And so again, has to go to court. The jury rules in Shakespeare's favor that he did not steal from his co worker, Micha. And so he wins in 2006, the court rules in his favor. 2007. And in 2008, he hears from a woman named Dee Dee Moore. And she's like, I want to write a book about your story. And Abraham was known to be generous and trusting, and here comes Dee Dee, and she gets her claws into him, and she slowly sort of takes ownership of properties. Their relationship is a bit murky as to how close they were getting, and she starts buying a lot of things in his name, putting things in her name, the whole nine yards.

[Hannah Smith]

Is she writing a book? No, of course she's not.

[Patia Eaton]

She's not writing a book. No. I don't know if she ever actually wrote anything, but no, that wasn't. It was all just a fraud.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So in 2009, Abraham Shakespeare goes missing, and it comes out that Dee Dee Moore, she murdered him. And she tried to get his friend in on it and pay them a certain amount of money to say they had recently seen him so that the missing persons case would go away. And that person, I think, started cooperating with the police when they realized how much trouble they would be in for doing that.

[Hannah Smith]

That they were an accessory to a murder plot.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, yeah. Of their own friend. And she was found guilty of murder in 2012. Sentenced to life in prison without parole. Still wants to be paroled, and I think tries to appeal.

[Hannah Smith]

That's so sad. What was this gentleman's name?

[Patia Eaton]

Abraham Shakespeare in Lakeland, Florida. Yeah, Very cool name. He.

[Hannah Smith]

So sad.

[Patia Eaton]

So sad. So if you win the lottery, don't tell anybody.

[Hannah Smith]

You hear so many stories about it causing so much pain and people losing money, and it just. It doesn't seem like a good luck thing. It seems like you really have to dodge that. The bad luck is just coming at. You used up all your good luck to win the lottery, and then all you have left is bad luck. Truly.

[Patia Eaton]

It's like the only way to get out of that happy and alive is to just lay low, tell no one, unless you absolutely have to. And make sure you trust that person. And get a lawyer.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, you have to get a lawyer immediately. Okay, So I understand. I think if I were in Tonda's situation and I had four co workers who were like, we agreed, I would sort of be like, no, we didn't. If I were in the situation where I was buying a lottery ticket with my co worker or friend every day, and we were like, one or the other would go in and buy them. I don't know, maybe part of me would be like, I should give them Some money.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And, you know, I couldn't find exact examples, but I know that Abraham was known to be pretty generous. So I don't know that he didn't buy this person any gifts or if maybe it got so contentious right away that he had to totally put the brakes on for. But one thing that his coworker said was that Shakespeare stole the lottery tickets out of his wallet. I guess I left that out. But it wasn't just like a. Well, I went in and bought these. And then, you know, we should be splitting it. I think it was like, Abraham says, let's go buy these. Here's the money. He buys them, he wins.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And then Michael changes his story. Yeah. Abraham. Shakespeare is famously quoted as having told his brother, I'd have been better off broke. I thought these people were my friends. I realized all they want is money.

[Hannah Smith]

That's the sad part, too. You hear about people winning, and then you have money, but then your friends or your family kind of betray you, and then you're lonely, and then you're a target for someone like Dede to come into your life and scam you.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I mean, it would be so strange, because it's not like if you get super rich, okay, now all my friends are super rich, and we can go do everything together. It's like, no, you. You're gonna have to figure that one out.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Or pay for everything.

[Patia Eaton]

Or pay for everything. Which, for some people, maybe they can handle it. Other people, I don't know.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

So what do you think the right amount of money to win in a lottery is to where, like, I'd be.

[Patia Eaton]

Fine to win this $1 billion Powerball.

[Hannah Smith]

One billion?

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, yeah. No, I'd be fine. Trust me. I'd give some of it away. I swear. I swear. Okay.

[Hannah Smith]

To me.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, to you.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, put.

[Patia Eaton]

Hannah, what would the right amount be? I feel like I could handle any amount. Okay, universe, I could handle any amount.

[Hannah Smith]

Let's just say you win, like, $500,000. It's not enough to put you on the map for any kind of fraud or scammers. It's just sort of, like, gonna be a nice, great chunk of change.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Or even a million.

[Patia Eaton]

Even a million. I'd take a million.

[Hannah Smith]

I'd take it. I don't need a billion. Yeah, well, those are interesting stories.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Good luck to everyone out there who wins the lottery.

[Patia Eaton]

Seriously.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, so recommendations? Do you have a recommendation today?

[Patia Eaton]

I do have a recommendation. I just. On the way, driving into the studio this morning, Finished an eight part series called the Lodge, which I'll just read the long line. In a world obsessed with well being, would you put your health in the hands of a cult? A cautionary tale about the consequences of going alternative when wellness becomes a matter of life and death. And it's fascinating. The host and writer, his name is Phil vine, does a really great job. There's a cult leader. I guess she wouldn't call herself a cult leader. Probably not. Her name is AI Ping Wang and she is really into energy healing. And basically like if you're sick, no matter what, you can heal yourself by being more in tune with energy. And we're all made of energy. It is fascinating how much trust people put in her. Actually, there are multiple deaths that take place, some believe because of this alternative healing that doesn't heal. I think the podcast is a place to think about what is someone's own power over their decision making when it comes to their health. Because we can say this person is incredibly influential in giving really dangerous medical advice.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

But if you are an adult, you don't have to take that advice. You can go seek conventional treatment that could save your life and is proven by science to have a better chance of that.

[Hannah Smith]

Or you could choose not to too.

[Patia Eaton]

Or you could choose not to.

[Hannah Smith]

And that's, you know, and it's not.

[Patia Eaton]

Her fault, you know.

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

So that's really an area it dives into. But I thought it was a great series and there's lots of really incredible interviews and I would say check it out.

[Hannah Smith]

Cool. The Lodge.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Great. My recommendation, I've been listening to Blink. It's been on the charts. It's really good. It's from the binge. It's the story of this guy, Jake Handle, and he's interviewed a lot in the podcast. The host meets him because he lives in her building and they end up becoming friends. And he tells her this story of what's happened to him and she's like, how is this not a true crime podcast? And so I actually haven't quite finished it yet. But it's so interesting what they kind of tell you right up the top is that Jay Kandel, he contracted this super rare disease that is very, very fatal and you lose your sort of muscle abilities. It happens super quickly.

[Patia Eaton]

Is that like als?

[Hannah Smith]

It's not. It's so much, it's like more rare than that that I can't remember the name of it. It comes from inhaling really toxic things. That's one of the, one of the causes and he was an addict. He's very open and vulnerable about what happened in his life and how he started getting into drugs and his journey with addiction. And it got really, really bad. And he ended up contracting this disease that they were basically like, you have six months to live, maybe.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, my God.

[Hannah Smith]

And what's gonna happen? Cause he started not being able to use his hands and, like, things. And they were like, you're going to eventually not be able to do anything. You're going to slip into a coma and probably die. And so this does.

[Patia Eaton]

How old is he at this point?

[Hannah Smith]

I think 29. So this happens and he eventually loses all ability to move his body. He's like completely paralyzed. It's not even like he can communicate with his eyes. And they think and believe that he's essentially brain dead. He's not. He's aware the entire time. He can hear everything. He is completely aware of what's going on around him.

[Patia Eaton]

It's like locked in syndrome. Ooh, nightmare. Ugh.

[Hannah Smith]

And eventually, like, he's the only person, I guess what they say, that has had this disease, gotten to this stage four and has actually, like, lived and recovered. But. But he hears a lot of things whenever he's locked in. And this is where the true crime comes in. So he's sort of like this silent witness to some things. And I don't know exactly. I haven't listened to the end, but it's just really interesting. I think it's really well done. And Jay Candle, the person, it's his story and he's interviewed in it. And he's just like, he's such a sweet person and he's so honest and vulnerable and very endearing. And it's just, just. I can't stop listening to it.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna listen on my drive home today.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it's great.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Love the binge.

[Hannah Smith]

Well, that's our show today. Thanks for listening.

[Patia Eaton]

See you next time. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is the knifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram henifepodcast or Blue sky athenifepodcast.

[Hannah Smith]

This has been an exactly right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.

[Patia Eaton]

And me, Peisha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[Patia Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Patia Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff. Georgia Hardstark. And Danielle Kramer.

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[Patia Eaton]

Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Patia Eaton]

Whoa, this thing moves.

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