Off Record: Victim Turned Scammer

Summary

The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

Episode Title: Victim Turned Scammer
Hosts: Hannah Smith & Patia Eaton
Release Date: March 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

“Victim Turned Scammer” explores a complicated case of romance fraud and financial exploitation out of Oklahoma, focusing on Christine Joan Echo Hawk, a woman who became both a victim and a perpetrator within a multimillion-dollar romance scam. Through detailed storytelling, hosts Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton follow the investigation from the perspective of law enforcement, the victims, and Christine herself, providing insight into how such crimes unfold and examining the emotional impacts and legal consequences for everyone involved. The episode shines a light on how isolation, vulnerability, and manipulation can intersect to create ripple effects of harm.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to the Case

• The episode is set in Oklahoma and centers on Christine Echo Hawk, who became the focal point of a large-scale romance scam investigation.
• Patia introduces the story (04:18):

  “Today I have a story for you, Hannah... It’s another one from your home state of Oklahoma.”

• The discussion underscores the small-town context—Pawnee, Oklahoma, population less than 2,000.

2. Red Flags and the Banking Investigation

• The investigation is sparked at MidFirst Bank by fraud examiner Bill Moeller, who notices suspicious transactions beginning October 2024.
  • Large, out-of-state deposits made to Christine’s accounts are immediately moved to another local bank.
• (09:26) “The deposits are coming from four separate individuals. All of them are elderly women who live out of state.” — Patia

3. Victims’ Stories and Methods of Deception

• Each victim believed herself in a romantic relationship with a man she’d met online.
• Techniques used included:
  • Claims of needing money to unlock large sums (“I just need a little bit of money to... unlock this $2 million payment…” 10:49)
  • Plausible but unverifiable scenarios (oil tankers, financial portfolios from overseas, friendships rekindled from years past).
• Victims' losses ranged from tens of thousands up to $600,000, with one woman selling her fully paid-off home (12:03).

4. Bank Intervention and Attempted Cover-up

• A large transfer ($120,000) is intercepted by the fraud team (14:36–15:00).
• Christine attempts to justify the transfer to the bank by fabricating an invoice for a land purchase.
• (16:51) “To flash forward… Christine then contacts this victim and says here’s what you need to tell the bank. And so she’s orchestrating this.” — Patia

5. Investigation Reveals Layers of Deception

• The Consumer Protection Unit receives the referral in January 2025 and prepares to confront Christine.
• March 26, 2025: Christine is interviewed by Oklahoma Attorney General Agent Richard Lashar at the local police department.
• (22:51) “Christine tells him... before the interview even really gets going, Christine asks a question that is very telling. She says, if the victims get paid back, will this just all go away?” — Patia

6. Christine's Story: Victim or Perpetrator?

• Christine claims she started as a victim herself, caught in a romance scam with a man calling himself “Maurice De Niro.”
• She admits to seeing red flags but continued as a “money mover,” converting funds into cryptocurrency and forwarding them to “Maurice.”
• (24:06) “She believed that she’s in an online relationship with someone who is using her to help obtain money from people, but he’s the person behind the accounts.” — Patia

7. Legal Outcome and Sentencing

• Christine has no prior record, was well-regarded locally, and had suffered personal loss (husband’s death in 2021).
• She is charged with multiple counts related to laundering criminal proceeds and computer fraud.
• (29:11) “She’s 53 when she’s arrested in 2025.”
• Pleads guilty to all charges; sentenced to 62 years, with 8 years to serve, balance suspended (29:11).
• Ordered to pay over $620,000 restitution, but was indigent at sentencing.
• (32:49) “Christine was represented by her legal defense… the Oklahoma indigent defense system… so she actually didn’t have any money.”
• The masterminds remain unidentified and unlocated, likely overseas or untraceable via crypto.

8. Themes and Social Commentary

• Explores the duality of Christine’s role—both manipulated and manipulator.
• Highlights the vulnerability of elderly people and the devastating impact of romance fraud.
• (34:07) “It’s also, you know, these scams start so small... And then you become sort of like, bonded to someone through what you think this trauma is that they’re experiencing. You feel like a hero. And who doesn’t want to feel like a hero?” — Patia
• Addresses the modern risks of online dating, especially for older generations.
• (36:53) Patia: “Some of these women were just on Facebook. Someone reaches out… You don’t think of those things. Well, of course, you know, if that’s somebody’s grandmother… But if you know someone who’s interacting with people online, the risk is, I think, the same.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Twist of Victimhood:
  • (22:51) “If the victims get paid back, will this just all go away?” — Christine Echo Hawk, via Patia
• Scale of the Scam:
  • (26:43) “Investigators estimate that $1.5 million has flowed through these accounts.” — Patia
• Reflecting on Blame and Responsibility:
  • (35:45) Hannah: “If you’re the family members of the victims... it probably, in some sense, when you hear, okay, there’s legal action being taken that might encourage you, but there’s no good outcome... it doesn’t give you your money back.”
• On Red Flags and Manipulation:
  • (30:18) Patia: “It’s like, wow, you know, it’s a tricky one because she knew what she was doing was wrong... but given the timeline of losing her husband and everything else, I think it makes sense that she had 54 years suspended.”
• On Protecting Loved Ones:
  • (37:22) Hannah: “...telling someone that’s excited about someone that they’ve met online that this is a scam and it’s probably not real is such a tricky conversation to have.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Episode Start/Intro: 03:54
• Case Introduction: 04:18–05:10
• Initial Bank Investigation: 07:11–08:33
• Victims’ Stories: 09:27–13:23
• Bank’s Action (Intercepted Transfer): 14:36–15:06
• Christine’s First Interview: 22:40–23:14
• Christine’s Backstory/Personal Loss: 28:43–29:11
• Legal Outcome and Sentencing: 29:11–32:49
• Social Impact and Elder Fraud Discussion: 34:04–38:28
• End of Main Content: ~37:47

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Concluding Takeaways / Hosts’ Reflections

• The case highlights the devastating power of online romance and elder fraud, particularly when targeting isolated or grieving individuals.
• The distinction between victim and perpetrator is explored: Christine was manipulated into breaking the law and playing an active role in the scam.
• Victims, even when scams are detected and prosecuted, almost never get their financial losses back—crypto transfers make recovery nearly impossible.
• The hosts urge listeners to talk to vulnerable loved ones about the risks of online relationships and the importance of skepticism in digital interactions.
• (38:28) Patia: “The only thing we can do to protect against this is talk to our friends and family... especially in those older generations, the shame and embarrassment, yeah, it’s just hard to swallow.”

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Additional Recommendations (Non-True-Crime Content)

• Briefly, Patia and Hannah discuss the HBO show "Neighbors," which features real neighbor disputes, as a lighter note before closing.

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For listeners: This episode offers a nuanced look at the blurry line between victim and criminal in romance scams and is an important listen for anyone with loved ones active online, particularly the elderly. The empathy and critical lens provided by the hosts make for a compelling, thought-provoking story.

Transcript

[Patia Eaton]

This is exactly right.

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[Hannah Smith]

This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Hannah Smith.

[Patia Eaton]

I'm Patia Eaton, and today I have a story for you, Hannah.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm so excited to hear it.

[Patia Eaton]

It's another one from your home state of Oklahoma.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. They're just coming with a slam dunk.

[Patia Eaton]

So many stories are not like, targeting oklah, okay, Oklahoma. They're just popping up.

[Hannah Smith]

Let me see your search history.

[Patia Eaton]

Seriously. Oh God, if my search history ever makes it out, I'm done. Everyone will be like, what's wrong with this person?

[Hannah Smith]

It might be actually the best cover for us. Cause we're like, well, we're true crime podcasters. We obviously have to research all of this stuff.

[Patia Eaton]

Seriously. They would have such a time if I was ever like on trial for murder going through my forensics. Computer forensics. Oh my gosh, I would not want that job. Okay, so Today's story, it's January 8, 2025. So a little over a year ago now.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

An agent, Justin Hokutt, is at his desk inside the Oklahoma Attorney General's Consumer Protection unit. And he's working through the usual flow of fraud complaints, identity theft, online scams, financial exploitation. This is what he does. So the Consumer Protection unit assists Oklahoma consumers through this is from the community outreach and education programs, mediation of complaints. But it also helps take legal action and protect individuals from businesses engaged in deceptive, fraudulent, or unfair advertising or sales practices. Businesses or individuals who are engaging in fraudulent or deceptive practices.

[Hannah Smith]

Gotcha.

[Patia Eaton]

So usually a tip or referral comes across an agent's desk from a victim. And you know, with financial crimes, when money's been stolen, it's usually really hard to get back. The damage is done, and you know that money's long gone or it's been laundered and it just becomes hard to recoup.

[Hannah Smith]

It can be hard to prove as well.

[Patia Eaton]

It can be really hard to prove, and it can take a long time. And people a lot of times, if they're waiting for money, don't have that long and have to sort of move on.

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

So this then leaves the victim just trying to piece together how it all happened. But this time, a tip comes in from a bank in Oklahoma City, and it's Mid First Bank. So more specifically, the tip comes in from a man named Bill Moeller, a certified fraud examiner at the bank. So a certified fraud examiner is a credentialed expert trained to prevent, detect, and investigate various types of financial fraud.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. So that's like a full time position at a bank.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, I guess.

[Hannah Smith]

Maybe it's like, that's a pretty. That's like a national bank chain.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Like, he's not, I don't think working out of one bank. Right, right. Like location. I think he's overseeing money, now that I'm saying it. Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay. So that's his job. And he is like the one that flags this.

[Patia Eaton]

Right. He's the one who sends you the text. Fraud alert. Just kidding. Yeah. So Bill notices some bank activity that doesn't look quite right to him. And this strange activity starts in October of 2024. So a woman named Christine Joan Echo Hawk opens multiple accounts at a MidFirst bank branch in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Now, Christine Echo Hawk is the sole signatory on the accounts, and she lists her home address as being in Pawnee, Oklahoma.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So it's a little over half an hour from Stillwater. The population in Pawnee is less than 2,000 people. Very small town. But there are. I checked, multiple banks that are closer to her, but she opens the accounts in Stillwater.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, is that like. Cause that's the closest, bigger city.

[Patia Eaton]

Well, I have some guesses as to why, but I think I'll. I'll save that for now. Yeah, but great question, Hannah. Thanks. So, pretty quickly after these accounts are opened, they start receiving sizable deposits, tens of thousands of dollars at a time. And the deposits are all coming in from out of state. And almost as soon as the money hits these accounts at midfirst, they're transferred right back out to a local bank in Pawnee. Ooh, weird.

[Hannah Smith]

That feels suspicious.

[Patia Eaton]

Suspicious. And, you know, Bill would agree. So he's curious, like, who is Christine Echo Hawk? Why is she receiving all this money, and why is she taking it right back out of these accounts? And this is what he does, is he investigates these sorts of odd transactions. So he calls. I mean, he actually does what I would love to do.

[Hannah Smith]

So if podcasting doesn't work out, this is your second option.

[Patia Eaton]

Totally. He calls the people who are making those deposits.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

And he is like, hey, and by the way, I got this information from the affidavit that we'll get into later. He calls them and asks them, what's this money for? Who are you sending it to? Tell me about yourself. It doesn't take long before Bill puts together that this is likely a romance scam. Elder fraud.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. The deposits are coming from four separate individuals. All of them are elderly women who live out of state. Hmm. Yeah. So one's in Florida, one is in Utah, two of them are in Texas. And they all tell Bill the same thing. They're sending money to someone that they believe they're in a romantic relationship with.

[Hannah Smith]

So he's able to track down the people sending the money because of bank records or whatever. And so he's calling not just Christine Echo Hawk, but also the four women sending the money.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, he hasn't called Christine yet.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, so I see.

[Patia Eaton]

He's calling the people who are sending her money. I see.

[Hannah Smith]

I confused that. I thought he had called her and was, like, confronting her.

[Patia Eaton]

Not yet.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, so he's doing research. He's called all the people who are sending the money.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. He's doing what I would do. So, you know, maybe he learned this all from us. That's right. Yeah. But he calls all the people that are sending them money, sending Christine money, and gathers information and thinks, okay, this is a scam that's happening.

[Hannah Smith]

Do they know that they're in a relationship with Christine?

[Patia Eaton]

So they just believe they're in a romantic relationship with someone they met online.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Men. They believe that the person is a Man and the victims are all between the ages of 64 and 79.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

One woman says that she met a man online who calls himself Edward Lotz. He told her he needed money to unlock this $2 million payment that would be coming his way once he paid off a debt he owed. And at that point, he would have access to all of his money and they would start their life together. So all he needed was for her to help him pay off this debt.

[Hannah Smith]

As a side thing we should probably at some point look into, like, is that ever a real thing?

[Patia Eaton]

Like, because that's always where this come

[Hannah Smith]

from, this storyline of. I just need a little bit of money to, like, unlock or be able to access this large amount of money. Is that ever a scenario that's real?

[Patia Eaton]

Like, that is a great question because I've actually never heard of that.

[Hannah Smith]

You've never heard of it being real?

[Patia Eaton]

I've never heard of it being real.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Like, in what world would you need to pay money to get an inheritance or a payment you're owed? I mean, maybe it happens in, like, business transactions. I'm not sure. I couldn't find the details of, like, what this Edward Lots character said the debt was about or said the $2 million was for.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Well, we should look into it. If anyone listening is like, I know of a scenario, write us and tell us.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And so she believes him, and she sells her fully paid off home and she sends him $600,000.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Another woman says she was helping a man who she believed to be a man named Jason Morris. And he claimed he was stuck overseas and needed money for fuel and supplies for an oil tanker that he had some involvement with. And she sent him more than $100,000 in gift cards, wire transfers, and cash.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. A third victim says she was speaking with someone she'd known years earlier that he called himself Glenn Goddard. He told her he was sending a financial portfolio from Syria, but he needed help with expenses. Like, don't ask me how that makes sense. I don't know. But something to do with, like, if you help me with these expenses, another sort of. I'm going to unlock this whole financial portfolio I will then be in possession of in Syria.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

She sends him a quarter of a million dollars. Fourth woman says she's helping again with an oil vessel that's returning to shore in Alaska. She sends $40,000 in gift cards, another $170,000 by wire. All of these transfers lead back to these accounts. And Christine Joan Echo Hawk.

[Hannah Smith]

This is a lot of Money coming into a bank in Oklahoma. Stillwater, which is, like, not a huge place.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Pawnee, which is even smaller.

[Hannah Smith]

And then being transferred to Pawnee. Yeah. This would raise a red flag.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I looked up the median income in Pawnee. $42,000 median household income. So it's a ton of money. These accounts posed as multiple men, oil workers, long lost college friends, all of them, you know, convincing these elderly women to send money and gift cards. Or in the case of the woman who sold her home. So the scam needs to be stopped, and that means sort of investigating it before Christine starts to understand that it's being investigated. Because you have to really, like, catch them.

[Hannah Smith]

You don't want to give it away. And then she starts destroying evidence.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So now all of her accounts are under scrutiny at the bank, like, they're being watched. And so I think that means that when he called these victims on the phone, he didn't fully tell them why. I'm guessing because I didn't speak with him. But if I'm understanding it correctly, he calls them well before he ever talks to Christine to try to understand what's happening.

[Hannah Smith]

But he doesn't warn them, like, don't send more money?

[Patia Eaton]

I don't know that he doesn't, but I didn't see that in the affidavit. Okay, so on December 26, 2024, one of the victims attempts to transfer $120,000 into one of Christine's accounts at Midfirst bank, but it's intercepted by the fraud team, and it never hits her account.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Christine had listed this account as belonging to Morris Dean Ventures, llc.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

The bank must have alerted. You know, hey, your transfer isn't going through. Like, she gets some alert, or maybe she just hears from the person that the money bounced back. They couldn't get it to her. I'm not totally sure. But when she realizes that the funds have been intercepted, she immediately tries to get the funds.

[Hannah Smith]

Christine does?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. She's like, okay, well, we gotta fix this.

[Hannah Smith]

Does she go to the bank?

[Patia Eaton]

She sends an email. So she. I believe she also made phone calls. So I know for sure she sent an email. And what she tries to explain to the bank in this email is that she does this by sending a fake. Well, we know now it's fake. An invoice that she creates from Morristein Ventures saying that this $120,000 is money she's owed for a property purchase. Bill calls the person who sent her the money, and that person backs up what Christine is saying that it's for a property purchase. Yeah. That it's $120,000 for a property purchase. But it's not clear to me if it was like Christine was purchasing the property and getting the money for that. I think it was like this person was sending money to technically buy a property from Christine. But there's no details on the invoice about the property. It's not how big, where is it, no property details. It's just land and Pawnee.

[Hannah Smith]

It's also like, I have to wonder if, when it didn't go through, if there was some conversation between Christine or whoever is kind of acting as this man and the person who sent the money. Like, the bank's giving me trouble. So I need to say it's for this property. Right. And will you say that, too? This is total conjecture.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

But I'm just like, yeah, what's going on there?

[Patia Eaton]

Well, you're totally right. So to flash forward for a minute, we know now that Christine then contacts this victim and says, here's what you need to tell the bank. And so she's orchestrating this. So what is her role here? Right. Is she the man behind these accounts?

[Hannah Smith]

Like, what's going on?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, it's reminding me of that audio book we both listened to. There is no Ethan. So as the investigation progresses, the victim tells the bank the real story that she believed Christine to be a man named Edward. And Edward told her to lie to the bank and make up the story. It's only thanks to that bank that Christine never got that money because this woman was fully convinced.

[Hannah Smith]

Was this a new victim?

[Patia Eaton]

No, this was one of those four elderly women, but I don't know which one.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, so in theory, she'd already sent money previously.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Okay, she had already sent money previously.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

So this is all taking place in December of 2024, this $120,000 being intercepted. January 2025. Agent Justin Hocut at the Consumer Protection Unit receives the referral. And over the next couple of months, they put this investigation together. And by March, they feel ready to speak with Christine. And surprisingly, at least to me, she's like, okay, yeah, I'll talk to you.

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[Patia Eaton]

And so Oklahoma Attorney General Agent Richard Lashar sits down with Christine at the Pawnee Police Department on March 26, 2025.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And Christine tells him she's a high school graduate, has an associate's degree in business and multiple nursing home healthcare related certifications. And before the interview even really gets going, Christine asks a question that is very telling. She says, if the victims get paid back, will this just all go away?

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, you can imagine the answer is no. Yeah, it's not going away. You know, I'm not a lawyer, but I feel like that's an interesting strategy. It did not work right. And then Christine comes out and tells this story that yes, she has been receiving cash checks, wire transfers from people that she's played a role in deceiving people that believe she's in an online relationship with them. But it's way more confusing than that because she's been doing this since 2023. And this all gets really twisted because Christine goes on to tell investigators that when this all started, she was a middleman helping to Deposit money from a man that she believed she was in a romantic relationship with. Who is the actual scammer?

[Hannah Smith]

What?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So. So basically what she's saying is she believed that she's in an online relationship with someone who is using her to help obtain money from people, but he's the person behind the accounts.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

She's the money mover.

[Hannah Smith]

Now, did she just believe that she was in a relationship with him in the beginning, or does she still.

[Patia Eaton]

Unclear to me, but I think when they arrested her, she still believed that.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. So does that mean that the money is going from Pawnee somewhere else?

[Patia Eaton]

Yes, it does.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

So turns out months earlier, well before the mid first bank accounts and Bill's involvement in January of 2024. So a year before the Consumer Protection Unit gets involved at all, local law enforcement had already spoken to Christine Echo Hawk, and they got a tip somehow about, like, money being moved around. And they sit down, talk to her. She tells investigators she's transferring money for a man that she believes she's in a romantic relationship with. So this is the same story. And she tells them his name is Maurice De Niro, obviously. De Niro money.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, right.

[Patia Eaton]

So, yes, Christine was scamming people, and she knew that she was scamming people. I shouldn't say she knew outright, but. So she goes on to tell people that law enforcement and the Consumer Protection Unit agents. Yes, I saw a lot of red flags. This wasn't making sense to me either. So she believes that she's in an online relationship with Maurice De Niro, who was also named as an unidentified suspect in the affidavit. So I think this is real.

[Hannah Smith]

So he's unidentified, though still.

[Patia Eaton]

He's unidentified.

[Hannah Smith]

What did she think that Maurice was doing with these other women, these victims?

[Patia Eaton]

Unclear to me, but he was clearly the person quarterbacking this whole thing. So Christine should not have done this. She knew that this was not right, but she didn't gain a lot from it either. Which really shows you the power of these romance scams, because although they end up finding some cash and gift cards at her home, all of the money that she transferred over the course of Even back in January 2024, she's been doing this since 2023. She took it out of those accounts, converted it to cryptocurrency, and sent it to this person.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, my gosh.

[Patia Eaton]

So she wasn't like.

[Hannah Smith]

Which is not traceable.

[Patia Eaton]

Not traceable. And so she was not gaining from this, like. Investigators estimate that $1.5 million has flowed through these accounts, and and she had. Not a lot. She had some personal gain from it, but, no, she wasn't sitting on 1.5 million. This was all going to this person who was scamming her.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay. My mind goes to. He's this guy Maurice. Whatever his real name is. Obviously, it's probably not Maurice. De Niro is needing someone who understands how to transfer money into crypto and send it to him. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And I'm guessing he taught her how to do that.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Or. I don't know that it's a man, I guess. But this person. Oh, my gosh.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, it could be. It could be anywhere. Yeah. And so we don't even know where Maurice is. Cause it wasn't transferred to a bank in, like, New York or something.

[Patia Eaton]

He could be anywhere.

[Hannah Smith]

Could be in another country. Like, we don't know.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Like, their relationship to me is, in a way reminiscent of the Donna Nelson story we did, where this grandmother in Australia believes she's in this relationship. Well, that guy is never in where she ends up going. Yeah. Yeah. And so this Maurice De Niro guy is not someone that they've identified if they do know who he is or who they are. But from what I could find online, Christine spent most of her life, if not all of it in Oklahoma. She was married, but her husband passed away in October of 2021. She worked in home healthcare. She was well liked in her community. She contributed to local potlucks, spent time with family and friends. There were Facebook posts from friends and family thanking her for gifts that she had made them. No criminal history prior to these financial crimes. But on April 7, 2025, she's arrested.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I mean, it's like I saw Facebook posts of people mourning her husband, and they all acknowledged the loss for Christine, too. And looking at the timeline, okay, so she lives in a small town. Her husband passes away in 2021. By 2023, she's moving money for this person that she's met online.

[Hannah Smith]

So probably there's been an established relationship there. So who knows when she met this person online?

[Patia Eaton]

But how old is she? She's 53 when she's arrested in 2025. Yeah. And so, I mean, we hear about this so much with online romance scams, elder fraud, online dating. So I'm guessing she got online, started dating someone who started building this relationship, and then came up with some story that persuaded her to do this. And she did do it. I mean, she did do it. So she's 53 years old. She's arrested and charged with multiple Counts related to laundering criminal proceeds and using a computer to violate state law. Christine pleads guilty in August of 2025 to all five charges and is sentenced to a combined total of 62 years in prison, with eight years to serve and the balance of 54 suspended. So I'm thinking, okay, they're recognizing she was in a bad place.

[Hannah Smith]

She's also a victim, and she's also been manipulated.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And it's like, wow, you know, it's a tricky one because she knew what she was doing was wrong. She told investigators over the course of their meetings that she was fearing that she would be arrested.

[Hannah Smith]

So she knew she was breaking the law.

[Patia Eaton]

She knew she was deceiving people, too. Yeah. I mean, she was communicating with people. I don't know if she was using a male voice or if she was acting like sort of an associate of this person they believed they were in a relationship with, but she was in communication with these other victims.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay, that's surprising.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. It wasn't like, okay, money has hit your account. Move it here.

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

She was also, I think, in communication with them.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay. Yeah. Well, that feels like more of a significant involvement to me than just never communicating with victims and being told to transfer money. I could see in that scenario how you could sort of deceive yourself into thinking, like, I don't know what's going on, but maybe they're just gifting him money or whatever delusional thinking you might be able to conjure up. But when you're talking with these victims, these women in their 60s and 70s who are sending large amounts of money, at that point, like, you have to stop and think, what am I doing?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. I watched a YouTube video that someone had made. It looked like, honestly, like, kind of AI driven. But they said in the video that an investigator said that looking through her phone was like, this isn't verbatim, but, you know, looked like many different personalities communicating. I didn't see that, but, you know, maybe they found something. I didn't, but I think that. But she's in the U.S. i don't know where Maurice De Niro lives, But, you know, the whole, like, needing to be in crypto and distancing yourself from a financial crime by doing it internationally can protect you in a way.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Did she ever speak with Maurice on the phone?

[Patia Eaton]

I don't know. I couldn't mind much about their relationship. Cause she pleaded guilty.

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

So it never went to trial where I assumed those things would have come out. But I did see in Facebook posts where you Know, this was the headline. Certain people would comment and be like, well, she was scammed, too. And, you know, she was. So, yeah. She was sentenced to a combined total of 62 years, with eight years to serve, a balance of 54 years suspended. She was ordered to pay over $620,000 in restitution to the four victims.

[Hannah Smith]

How's she ever gonna pay that?

[Patia Eaton]

Exactly. How? $500 to a court fund and 250 to the victims of Crime act fund. So, strangely, this is like, a little fact with this story that I thought was interesting. Christine was represented by her legal defense. She was represented by the Oklahoma indigent defense system, because apparently, like we were talking about, she sent all of the money or not all of the money, but, you know, the vast majority of it to this Maurice De Niro person. So she actually didn't have any money. And this group exists to represent people who don't have any money. And so this person who had taken. Played a role in taking an important role, $1.5 million from people had to be represented by something that's set up to help people who, you know, cannot afford their own representation. She was ordered to pay them $250 for her defense. So, yeah. Americans lost over a billion dollars to romance scams in 2022. Elder fraud and romance. And we know that number has to be climbing with the rise of deepfakes and AI.

[Hannah Smith]

Think about what you could do with a billion dollars.

[Patia Eaton]

I know. And it's also, you know, these scams start so small. I need help with a plane ticket. I need help with this, I need help with that. And then you become sort of like, bonded to someone through what you think this trauma is that they're experiencing. You feel like a hero. And who doesn't want to feel like a hero?

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And, yeah, that's what happened here is I think this Maurice De Niro character kind of did the legwork and needed Christine on the ground in the US I don't know. This person wasn't in the US But I assume it behooved them wherever they were, to have someone who it was easy to transfer money to, because transferring money internationally has to require added steps.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. And you have to have a bank account with a person's name and address associated with it. So pinning this all on Christine and having her do that and then transfer it to crypto, you know, just covers his tracks or their tracks completely.

[Patia Eaton]

Totally. And I don't know that Christine wasn't invested in crypto before meeting this person, but it seemed like, she worked some sort of, like, healthcare job. And I don't know, it seems unlikely to me. So, yeah, I thought her sentence made sense. You know, I'm not an expert in sentencing, but it's not okay. What she did, she should have listened to her intuition. Those were red flags. But given the timeline of losing her husband and everything else, I think it makes sense that she had 54 years to step in.

[Hannah Smith]

I think so too. The sentence makes sense. And she will spend eight years in prison. But I have to imagine if you're the family members of the victims, and let's say your mother has just sold her house that was paid off and sent all of that money, $600,000, to this scammer. It probably, in some sense, when you hear, okay, there's legal action being taken that might encourage you, but there's no good outcome for the victims because, I mean, does it make them feel better that this woman is spending eight years in prison? Maybe, but.

[Patia Eaton]

But it doesn't give you your money back.

[Hannah Smith]

No, there's no chance that they're gonna get their money back.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

Christine's not gonna be able to give them their money back, and it's gone. It's untraceable. So it's just like, it's such a lose, lose situation for them. It's horrible.

[Patia Eaton]

It's horrible. And I think the only thing that we can do to protect against this is talk to our friends and family who are dating online that might be less aware of these kinds of scams. And it might be kind of uncomfortable because it's like, I don't know. One of these women was 79. She's not on some online dating site. Some of these women were just on Facebook.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, really?

[Patia Eaton]

Someone reaches out. Hey. Oh, you know, makes a connection. It's like, you don't think of those things. Well, of course, you know, if that's somebody's grandmother. Well, my grandmother's not dating online. But if you know someone who's interacting with people online, the risk is, I think, the same. Unless they're aware of these scams. And especially, I think, in those older generations, the shame and embarrassment. Yeah, it's just hard to swallow.

[Hannah Smith]

Sometimes people meet someone online that, like, lives in another country or whatever, and they're a real person, and it's like, great. Really? It's so rare. Yes. Online dating is great, but, like, meet the person in person sooner than later. If there's any reason why that can't happen for more than, like, a couple weeks or something, it's just, it's just probably not a good idea. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And if they come to you with this urgent problem or financial need and you do want to help them, maybe you could do some research on like nonprofits that they could speak with or something or. I don't know. I mean, if you feel like doing that. But don't send them money. You know, it's a huge red flag and it preys on people who are, you know, empathetic and lonely.

[Hannah Smith]

Looking for love.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Ugh.

[Hannah Smith]

It just breaks my heart.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. It makes me want to interview someone who works at the consumer protection unit.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Would love to speak with somebody.

[Hannah Smith]

I wonder how many cases like this they come across. I mean, this one feels so blatant. You're seeing $1.5 million being transferred in and out of this bank quickly over the course of a year or something. Like, it's surprising to me that it wasn't cut sooner actually in some ways.

[Patia Eaton]

Well, yeah. I mean, knowing that she spoke to law enforcement in January 2024 about some activity that didn't look right, I have to wonder how much did they know? Why wasn't it pushed further? I don't know. But yeah, it could have stopped there.

[Hannah Smith]

Also, it wasn't like enough to scare her and to stop doing this.

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[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age? Every Age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail].

[Patia Eaton]

But then we see the hold these online relationships can have on people. You know, like, I keep. I kept thinking about Donna Nelson while I was working on this story, and you know how excited she was about this relationship.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And you know, these are intelligent people with important relationships and whole careers and who doesn't want to connect with people.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. And it's so sad because we see this happening to a lot of people in like, the boomer generation currently. And people I know, their parents are dating online. And if you think that, like, your parent is dating someone online who might not be a real person or might have, like, ill intentions, that's a really tricky conversation to have. And, you know, there's so many tricky conversations to have as, like, your parents age about, like, agency and decision making. And this is like, yet another one that's become like a common modern situation that people are dealing with. You know, how do you ever tell your parent, like, you shouldn't have a driver's license anymore? Like, things like that are really hard. And also, you know, telling someone that's excited about someone that they've met online that this is a scam and that it's probably not real is such a tricky conversation to have. Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And how do you even know it's happening? A lot of times these people, these scammers say, don't mention our relationship to people. They're gonna judge us or get between us, or tell you not to talk to me. And then if they do tell someone and that happens, they're like, see, I told you.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. Tricky. Yeah. Well, on a lighter note, I have a recommendation.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, great.

[Patia Eaton]

So I was scrolling through my streaming platforms, as one does, and I came across an HBO show and it's called Neighbors.

[Hannah Smith]

I saw this pop up, but I haven't watched it.

[Patia Eaton]

Okay. Yeah. I really liked the COVID art.

[Hannah Smith]

Looking through the window.

[Patia Eaton]

Yes. Yeah. Follow the chaotic and complicated disputes of neighbors and the extreme lengths they'll go to to defend what's theirs. I watched episode one, which it was so bizarre, but I actually loved it because it was like this super zoomed in story on someone's life. Like, we're not talking about how these people. Like, one of the disputes is happening in rural Montana, and we're not talking about how did you guys get here to do what you're doing here? Cause they both have very specific reasons for being on this rural piece of property.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay. And they're both interviewed for the episode,

[Patia Eaton]

fully on board with the episode. And they're interesting characters and they're so similar in certain ways, which I found interesting, given that they're feuding. But, yeah, they both wanted to leave city life behind and live the super remote lifestyle. But there's a dispute about a gate that is blocking entrance to land that other people feel entitled to. But I thought it was shot in sort of a strange way, but I actually really enjoyed the episode overall. And then there was another dispute in the episode about shoreline access on Santa Rosa beach in Florida. This is interesting to me. We live in California. I live, like, fairly close to the beach. The idea that beaches are private is so screwed up. Screwed up.

[Hannah Smith]

So screwed up.

[Patia Eaton]

Like owning a beach.

[Hannah Smith]

The beach should be free to everyone.

[Patia Eaton]

Everyone should be able to go to the beach. And I that if you're a property owner and your backyard is a busy beach, that could inevitably mean you're dealing with people who are sometimes using poor judgment or, you know, disrespectful about your property. But we can't say I own the beach. That's, like, wild to me.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

And so there's this neighbor dispute about the beach and this sort of, like, anonymous defender. Anyway, I thought it was interesting, and I'm gonna keep watching.

[Hannah Smith]

Do they try to resolve the disputes in the episode?

[Patia Eaton]

They tried.

[Hannah Smith]

They tr.

[Patia Eaton]

But they tried.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay.

[Patia Eaton]

Actually, I'll say this one person tried from my perspective.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

There's two people in Montana, two people in Florida. I would say one person tried.

[Hannah Smith]

Okay. What is it like to produce that show? Just imagine. Okay. I need neighbors who have disputes and think about all of the pitches that would come through and all of the neighbors that are mad at each other over things like fences.

[Patia Eaton]

And you have to also be someone who's so sure that you're right that you're gonna agree to be interviewed, because you have to think people are gonna watch this and decide who they think is right. I think beaches should be accessible to the public and anyone who wants to visit them.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

The gate feud, I kind of saw both sides. One of the issues the guy has with it is that the people who want access to his property are horse owners, and the horses are causing issues for him. And I don't want someone else's horses on my. That could be dangerous. If they get hurt, whose fault is it?

[Hannah Smith]

Right.

[Patia Eaton]

So anyway, I'm gonna keep watching.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. I wonder if it ever gets darker than that, because you have to imagine there's a lot of pretty sinister neighbor stories out there. We should try to find one, actually to do an episode. It would be interesting. I know multiple people actually in my life who have had to leave their homes because of contentious relationships. Like, one of them was with their landlord, actually, so that's different. But someone who lived close by was sort of like on the landlord's team and was doing things like writing graffiti on their house and like, blocking the driveway. And another person that I know back in Oklahoma, they owned their home and they ended up, like, selling it and moving because their neighbor was. I can't remember what ended up happening to him, but they figured out that he was doing things like pouring chemicals on their yard and like, killing their plants.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh my gosh.

[Hannah Smith]

Like, pretty weird stuff. And they had a kid, so they were like, this feels unsafe, actually. Like, we don't know what this guy is capable of. But it's wild to think that you buy a house or you're renting a place or something and you don't know who is living next door. And hopefully it's like good people. And I'm very much on board with people like, like knowing their neighbors and creating community. Like, we're way too isolated. But, like, what if you live next door to someone who is just determined on ruining your life?

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, I know. I mean, I've luckily never had a bad neighbor experience, but in my childhood house, the two neighbors in our cul de sac, other than us, were feuding about a tree for, like, years. And I mean, to this day, I think that tree is still there. And I'm like.

[Hannah Smith]

Like someone wanted to chop it down.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah, exactly. I think that whether or not I thought I was right, I would get so sick of fighting about it, I would probably just let it go. But if it's a safety thing or someone dumping chemicals in your yard, then, like, absolutely not. But yeah, I had a situation in my very first LA apartment. It was in Los Feliz. So if you're familiar with LA, it's East LA, East Hollywood area. It was $1,000 a month for a one bedroom, one bathroom with underground parking, air conditioning and Amazing. And this was in non existent, non existent today. This is in 2012. And I was so excited about this apartment and I loved it. And I was working as a personal assistant and it was just the best feeling to have this place to myself. And the landlords lived there with their two adult sons and I lived there for a year. It was kind of Fine. The landlord was very involved. But I just kind of passed it off as like quirkiness. And I remember at one point a guy I was dating came over and the landlord came over and told me that he couldn't spend the night.

[Hannah Smith]

What, like he has to pay rent or something?

[Cindy Crawford]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

I was like. I just pretended like I didn't understand what he was saying. Cause there was like a language gap. But I was just like. Excuse me. Like. Like what? You're gonna tell me this person can't spend the night? I just played dumb. But I was like, very kind of freaked out because I'm like, why do you even care?

[Hannah Smith]

What are you watching?

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. No, he was always wandering the building. One time I was walking through the hallway with a can of paint. Cause I was gonna paint one of the rooms and he chased me down, was like, I don't want you to paint. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to paint. Like, it's just. You'll decide. My security deposit. I have a friend who calls her security deposit a personality fee. And I love that.

[Hannah Smith]

That's so true.

[Patia Eaton]

So true. And like, whoever gets that back, seriously so weird stuff. But like, whatever. I loved the apartment. It was close to where I worked.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Like, him being hyper controlling over this apartment complex is like so annoying, actually.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. And then something bad happened where I had just got a brand new MacBook. I worked for Patty Stinger at the time. The Millionaire match.

[Hannah Smith]

My favorite point of your resume.

[Patia Eaton]

Yes. Still the most important one. Shout out to Patty if you're listening. And Patti bought me the most, like, beautiful dresses at this boutique in Beverly Hills. She bought me this new computer. Like, she was a very generous boss. I had so much fun working with her. And anyway, the. Wait, did she put me the computer? I think she did.

[Hannah Smith]

If people don't know, she's the Millionaire matchmaker.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah. So Patty had a Bravo show called the Millionaire Matchmaker.

[Hannah Smith]

I don't know if it's still on or not.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

She was a matchmaker for millionaires.

[Patia Eaton]

Yes. And I was her assistant. And I first worked for her in New York and then in la. And it was such a crazy job, but I loved it. And I remember it fondly. For the first time in my life. I had things that to me were like, expensive and nice. And I was like, very excited about it. So anyway, I'm carrying my new MacBook into my apartment and I pass my landlord's two sons who were probably in their 40s, and they were asking me about it. And I didn't think that much of it. I was just like, oh, yeah, I just got it, whatever. And then I just went into my apartment. The next day I came home and I had been burglarized.

[Hannah Smith]

Really? Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Someone came into everything.

[Hannah Smith]

Was it the daughter's sons?

[Patia Eaton]

I don't know. You know, I went to my landlord and I said, I, you know, I locked it when I left, and it was locked when I got home and everything is gone. And, yeah, he. Of course.

[Hannah Smith]

That's horrible.

[Patia Eaton]

I don't know if he could have even figured it out, but I left after that. It was a bad feeling.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

I remember I had a Michael Kors watch that I, like, saved up for. It was gone.

[Hannah Smith]

Dang.

[Patia Eaton]

I had this horse necklace my friend Melissa got me. It was gone.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow. Did you make a police report?

[Patia Eaton]

I don't remember now. I don't think I even thought of it back then. Yeah. I think I was just so freaked out. I just wanted to move at that point.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. Because that feels really scary. Someone had access to your home and, like, took these things. That's. I think it was probably the landlord's sense.

[Patia Eaton]

I think so, too. I mean, whoever got in used a key.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

So I'm sorry. That sucks.

[Patia Eaton]

No, I've recovered. I recovered, but it was. Yeah, that's my landlord story. Kind of.

[Hannah Smith]

Neighbors, you just never know. Well, that's a great recommendation. I'll have to check it out.

[Patia Eaton]

And Millionaire Matchmaker, too, if you haven't seen it, those older episodes, they're probably available.

[Hannah Smith]

Patty, you know, she gives that tough love.

[Patia Eaton]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

She's always telling people to, like, get a makeover.

[Patia Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

All right, cool. Well, thanks so much for telling me that story today.

[Patia Eaton]

Many stories today. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram Henife Podcast or Bluesky at the Knife Podcast.

[Hannah Smith]

This has been an exactly right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith,

[Patia Eaton]

and me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogel and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[Patia Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Patia Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

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[Public Podcast Sponsor]

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