A (2:16)

Well, I think my background kind of all played into it and I think everything that I've been through has been training me all the, all the Hard times, the really scary times and low times in my life. God's been training me. I didn't know it at the time, but now I can see it much clearer now. It was not just the five years of writing the book, but there was all my experiences and, you know, my mom's background and community background that my dad got into with the Hutterites and my brother and the spiritual background, all of that.

B (2:43)

The key realization of the book seems to be that the pursuit of extraordinary performance and the pursuit of the best possible possible life, or the same thing.

A (2:51)

Yeah, that was really a life changing thing for me to realize in the desert. So kind of how that happened was I give away over half my possessions to go live in a life of solitude to figure out what to do with my life. I wanted to find something that I could devote my life to. And when I was there, I decided to become a personal coach to pro baseball players and teach them how to have peace and confidence under pressure. And so then I started to put together this manual for future clients after my first two clients did. Amazing. And what I realized in the research was that what good is it if I spend my life making people really successful? Whether it's winning an Olympic gold medal or being world number one or making millions of dollars, if it doesn't make a difference in their heart and in the world, if it just makes them more successful? Like that may not even be a good thing. And then when I found out that to teach someone how to have the most poise, under the most pressure is the same path as living the best possible life, a meaningful, fulfilling life with. With amazing experiences and deep, enriching relationships where you're learning and growing and making a difference. It's the same path, a wholehearted path. When I realized that, that's when everything changed. That's what inner excellence is. It's to teach someone how to be wholehearted, how to walk in love and not fear and develop yourself as a person and optimize that and become your true self. And then you're better at every. You're a better athlete, you're a better parent, better coach, you're more present, more gracious, more. More aware.

B (4:18)

I want to dive into this developing ourselves as a person and use this episode as a means to sort of teach people inner excellence and how they can perform under pressure and also live a life of more meaning. But before we get there, I want to talk about the book. How did the book come about? Let's spend a beat on this for a second because My understanding is you wrote this book and then almost nobody read it.

A (4:41)

Yeah, that's right. So the book came out in 2009. And I wrote the book because I wanted to write the best book ever on mental toughness. And I wanted to use that as a manual for my clients to use that I can give them and say, here's how you train your mind and your heart. It worked great for that. It wasn't a big seller, but it worked great for that. And interestingly enough, I had on my phone, I recommend to all my clients that they have these reminders, silent reminders that come up, these affirmations every day throughout the day. And one of mine was that I'm a New York Times bestselling authority. And it had been 15 years, 16 years, and so. And that hadn't happened. So after a few years, I took it off. The book was. Was doing great for what I wrote it for as this manual and for other clients to get other clients. So that was amazing, but it wasn't a big seller. And then, so 2018, I got the rights from McGraw Hill, and then I spent two more years of part time, maybe 20 hours a week, revising it. So that came out in 2020. The book, I thought it was going to be 15% different, but it turned out to be about 85% new stories and same concepts, but new stories.

B (5:42)

And then I assume most people found it the way I did. I was watching the NFC playoff game and saw A.J. brown on the sideline reading this book. And then that became the focal point of what everybody was talking about. All of a sudden, where were you? What happened there?

A (5:57)

Yeah, so I was in Dallas, Texas. I was there to write, to do an interactionist retreat. And I'm in my hotel room. What was amazing about that week? It was such an intense week for many reasons. So January 12th was that Sunday. My mom died January 16th, and she was 91. She had an amazing life, had a huge impact on my life and taught me so much. So it was an answer to prayer because she was suffering. But it was a very somber week and also kind of a slow week in my life. And just it'd been years of kind of. Both parents died and my sister died and trying to care for them, and things were slow, and business was slow, and I actually didn't pay off my credit cards in January. I had money in investments, but I have any in my checking. And I look up at the skyscraper in downtown Dallas that Sunday afternoon, and I had just written a book called the Best Possible how to live with deep contentment, joy and confidence, no matter what. It's a much smaller, easier book to read on the spiritual life and kind of a summary of inner excellence. And so that book had just come out, and I remember looking at the skyscraper that afternoon, and the thought came to me was, jim, would you rather own that skyscraper for whatever hundreds of millions of dollars it's worth, or would you rather have written the book the Best Possible Life? And I thought, no, I wouldn't trade it for hundreds of millions of dollars. And so I thought, well, at least you got that. That's pretty cool. And then a couple hours later, everything changed. My whole life changed. I'm watching Penn State play Notre Dame of Bulgin. That had already happened. I look at my phone and I see all these texts and I thought, my mom died, because why all the texts? And then obviously someone said, you need to turn on the Eagles game. And so I turn it on and I see it. And that's when I found out with the rest of the world that he was reading the book, bringing the book to every game, reading it before games to get, and reading it after every drive. I saw him with a picture of him with a book on the sidelines a month before, but I had no context. And so, yeah, that's when the barrage of interview requests and everything started happening.

B (7:55)

It's interesting to me in a couple things. I want to go back just for a second. One of your affirmations was to be a New York Times bestselling author. That sounds like an outcome.

A (8:03)

The way I think about this is so I get paid to help people achieve outcomes. They don't come to me to feel better or have a more spiritual life as far as the way I've been paid the last 10, 20 years. Years. But we do it through a spiritual approach. When I say spirit, a heart focused, much deeper approach than the transactional world that we live in. And so I have what I call third world goals. I call the world that we live in of results and circumstances. The first world and the second world is your inner world. And then the first world is the unseen world that's eternal and has every good thing like love, joy, peace, inner strength, mental toughness. And so the third world of results and circumstances. I have goals there. Like one goal was to be a New York Times bestselling author. But the crucial thing is those are just temporary things that I don't even know if it's good for me. I mean, we all have goals, but are they good for you? Are they the best thing for you? We don't even know if they're good for you. And so I try to hold them loosely, knowing that, yeah, I have these desires and goals, but they're nothing compared to who I'm becoming. And to share God's good news with the world, his love, wisdom, and courage, that's my purpose. And that's what God told me. On day three, I was getting overwhelmed and stressed and like, oh, my gosh, what is happening? And God is like, tim, you don't have to stress out. You didn't do this. I'm doing it. I did it. And your purpose doesn't change. And so that was a big relief. It was like, okay, I don't have to stress out about all this stuff, and I'm just going to continue to do what I do.

B (9:33)

How did you feel after you made. So your goal came true. You hit the New York Times bestseller list. Not only did you hit it, you were number one. You sold a hundred thousand or more copies of the book, which is just a runaway success by any measure of any book ever. And it's sort of like this dream, right? Like, you wrote this book, you went to the desert, you put your head down, and then nothing happened. And then one day, suddenly, somebody recognized how amazing this work was. Did that feel satisfying to you, or did it feel empty?

A (10:02)

Very, very surreal and extremely incredible. It definitely didn't feel empty. It wasn't like, oh, now I'm somebody. It felt amazing because it was like, God and I are doing something together, and that's what was amazing. And so the most exciting part about all of this is the work we're doing in inner city Philly, specifically with Shane Claiborne and potentially with Bill Strickland's group. He's the author of a book called make the Impossible possible. He's got 17 centers around the world that provide job training, skills and. And arts and crafts for inner city youth and adults. And so that's been the most exciting thing about this. And to feel like, wow, God chose me to share this message. It's the most amazing thing. And look, I'm just a messenger. It's like that first week, there was so much talk about me. Like, I'll give you an example. I'm in Philadelphia. I'm gonna go to the next game against the Rams, the snow game. And I'm in the elevator and I see all these Eagle fans wearing all their gear. I said, hey, I heard one of your players was reading a book on the sideline. Is this tr. And they said, oh, yeah, yeah. And I was like, what's the name of the book? And they're like, oh, interrechivist. I said, well, is it any good? They're like, I don't know, we haven't read it. But the guy, he went from 500,000 or whatever to number one. And I was like, really? And so now we're getting out of the elevator and walking away. And they're like, do you know how much money that guy made? And I said, well, whoever that guy is, I sure hope he does something good with that money. The reason I was starting to get overwhelmed on day three, looking at all the sales and everything that's happening, because it was. I started to think about myself, Jim, don't screw this up. And this is something that I'm doing. But then God said, this is not something that you're doing or did. And then. So that was just this huge relief. It's not a Jim Murphy thing. I'm just the lowly messenger.

B (11:52)

When you tell me that story, I kind of feel bad. Not for you, but for myself. And I'll put this in perspective. And maybe this is self centeredness. And my friend Brent Beshore has this idea of clean fuel versus dirty fuel and how are you powered? And your fuel sounds very clean. It's purpose driven. It's meaningful. And my fuel is more a mix. It's dirty, it's a chip on my shoulder. I also hit the New York Times bestselling list, but the first thought that I had was not positive. It was. I remembered a comment on an article and in the New York Times from 2018 saying, you know, I hope Mr. Parrish is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame. And to me, that's more of a dirty fuel. And I've been thinking about a lot about clean fuel versus dirty fuel and motivation lately. And the people that I admire a lot is Tom Brady. And, you know, he's got a mixture of fuel. It sounds like, you know, there's definitely a chip on his shoulder from Michigan driving him and pushing him. And what I find with the dirty fuel, if you will, at least for certain personality types, myself included, is it just never burns out. Like it never expires. I remember things that my grade nine teacher told me, you know, back in the day, they don't do this anymore, but they used to write what they actually think. And she wrote my report card that went home to my parents, like, Shane will be lucky to graduate high school. And I still think about that every few weeks. That pops in my head. What's your reaction to that?

A (13:25)

We're all human, and so our greatest need is for love and acceptance. And so we all have a mind that's always threatened, always comparing, and never satisfied. The part of the mind I call the ego. And so it's something that as humans, we're always battling with. The ego says, if you're more successful, you're going to get what you want most. It doesn't say this out loud or in certain words, but it's. That's what it's always implying is if you're successful, you're going to get what you want most, which is that love and connection. If you sell more books or get more followers or more money or more promotions, you're going to get this thing that you need most. But the flip side is if you fail, you're going to. Not only are you not going to get that, you're going to get the opposite. You're going to get rejected. And so this is always something that every human battles. And I try never to tell anyone what to do as a coach or a friend. What I try to do is help people clarify what they want most and help them get it. Because I know that if you come to me and you want to be world number one in a sport, I know that's not what you really want. I know because I was in the same boat. I wanted to be a superstar, Major League baseball player or NFL player or NBA. And I thought that was the best possible life, was to make millions of dollars and be rich and famous and have every guy want to be me and every girl want to be with me. That's the best possible life. I'm going to live it. And so I obsessed about that. But what I've learned since then, in the five years of writing and researching the book, is that what I've always really wanted is to feel fully alive. I had a single story for my life. That story was, if you get this American Dream, where you're hitting home runs in the big leagues and on the COVID of magazines, that's the best possible life, and that's the life meant for you. And of course, I played five years in the minors and I did not get that life. And I was completely devastated. And so what I want people to do is I want their fuel, as kind of you alluded to a little bit. I want their fuel to be powerful, empowering. I want them to like Tom Brady, the most successful potentially football player ever, and he wins a few Super Bowls and He says, God, Is that it? In other words, reaching the very top Like Michael Phelps, 23 Olympic gold medals and feeling empty. It's very, very common. Because if that's your God and baseball was my God, when I say God, the thing that you love most and fear most of losing, you're only as stable as whatever you're worshiping. Like David Foster Wallace told us, everyone has a God. There's no atheist. Everyone worships something, there's something at the top of your heart, and that's your God. And for me it was being the superstar, and I lost it and lost everything. And so I was as stable as it was. And so, in other words, when I didn't have a good season, I didn't want people to tell others that I was a pro baseball player because I was unstable. And so inter excellence to say, hey, let's go for what's most empowering to fuel your life and specifically, the control center of your life, your heart.

B (16:26)

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A (19:57)

What I've seen with people that are very talented like yourself, is that exactly what you said? It's just, next, next, next, like, let's get another goal. Let's achieve something else.

B (20:07)

It's.

A (20:07)

It's really like productivity is really, really important because achievement is the whole, the end goal. It's a dangerous trap. The more talent you have, the more likely that you can get in this trap. And the trap is I set a goal, I work at it, I get a result, and then I process that result in my mind. Do I like it? Is it good or bad? Did I win or lose? And then after I process it in my mind, I'm going to get a feeling. And that feeling is going to be, if I got what I wanted, it's going to be positive, but temporary. If I didn't get what I wanted, it's going to be negative. And that's going to impact my beliefs because beliefs are feelings. And then I'm going to be like, that belief will be, oh, maybe I can achieve my dreams or maybe I won't. But because if you're talented now, what are you going to do? It's another goal. And so say you achieve the first one, you're like, okay, maybe I can. You process in your mind, yeah, I can do these things and I'm going to be somebody and I'm going to achieve these things. You set another higher goal and then you don't get it. Then you process in your mind like, oh, this sucks. So you get a negative feeling, impacts your belief. Maybe I can't do this. But the more talented you are, the more cheers you're going to get when you do achieve these things. Because they're going to be bigger than most people. And that sucks you in to just this cycle of I just got to keep achieving. If I can feel okay about myself, if I keep achieving. It's like Jerry Seinfeld, he's maybe the most famous successful comedian ever. And he said, you know, why do I work? He's like, well, I keep working because that's the only way I can kind of really feel. I don't remember the words he used exactly, but it was. It's the same story I hear over and over and over. Like when people retire, they lose their purpose because the work in essence kept them distracted. And busyness is one of the biggest things that we do so we don't have to get deeper and face our fears and look at life at a deeper level. And that deeper level is what you alluded to in the very beginning. We're created for relationship. And when you understand that you're either walking in love or fear, then love is this willingness to sacrifice for others. And fear is these walls that we naturally build. It's this self centeredness that's inherent in human nature that is important to take care of ourselves and be safe. But also we build these walls that imprison us. So that's why it's so important to think deeper about your life and get out of that business. Go into solitude and really think, why do I want these goals that I have? And what is it at the end that I want to look back on.

B (22:33)

My life and have the busyness brought to mind. Something that I observed many years ago with certain people. And they would dive into work as a means of escape. They were escaping their family and their life that they've created. And it's the Same as vacation. I often have these conversations with people and they're like, oh, I can't wait to go on vacation. And I'm like, why? For me, it's like, why do you have a life that you. You've built that you want to escape? And so that part I find interesting. And how do you help somebody who's avoiding something? And I did this when I first got divorced. I mean, I avoided dealing with what I needed to process and what I needed to look at and how I needed to go through this. And the way that I did that was diving into work. And so I notice it in other people as well. How do you take somebody who's avoiding something like that? And, you know, the avoidance could be I'm avoiding. I've created this life that either I feel I have to work to achieve for my family, or I just don't like my life and I can't acknowledge it. I'm unconsciously, like, diving into work as a means of avoiding going home and avoiding spending time with my kids and my family.

A (23:42)

What's interesting, you mentioned vacation, because the second you said vacation, that's the exact same thing I was thinking about. I wrote an article called how to Be on Vacation. And what I've experienced, most people, it's actually. It's interesting. So two years ago, I had a friend of mine and his wife had just died. He invited me to be. To go sailing with him in French Polynesia. And for two weeks. And my first thought was, I don't go on vacation. But then I started thinking about it was going to be him and his son who had just lost his mom. And I thought, you know, maybe I could go and be something positive in their lives. But this thing about vacation, the article how to be on Vacation is the idea that most people go on vacation to escape their lives. Like you said, the common thing is, I'm gonna go on vacation. I don't wanna think about work. Let's not talk about work. Let's not talk about anything back home. We're just gonna relax. That's a very common idea, right? And it's kind of like escaping your life. And like you said, why do you have a life that you wanna escape from? So the gist of the article is, rather than going to escape your life on vacation, the best vacation is one where you go to enhance your life. Well, how do you do that? Well, first of all, we need to stop all the busyness. So stop all the thinking and all the doing and stop all that for a day. Or two. And then think deeply about your life purpose and why you're here on this earth and how can you move towards that when you go back to your regular life? There's a question that I like to ask at the end of every year is what good reason do you have to not change every single thing in your life? Because obviously, if you don't have a good reason, then why aren't you changing it? And that, to me, that question says you should look at every single thing that you're doing and don't just reevaluate it. Does this line up with my purse? Most people don't have a clear purpose. So first of all, we need to have a clear purpose for your life. Otherwise you're going to get so distracted and so busy because you can't. It's too hard to sit with yourself and your thoughts.

B (25:39)

What's your purpose?

A (25:41)

My purpose is to share God's love, wisdom and courage with the world, with athletes and leaders around the world.

B (25:46)

How did you find religion?

A (25:48)

It's interesting you say religion. I grew up and my mom is full Japanese. Her family became a Christian family when her father was dying. Well, it kind of started with, I talked about this in the book with the Samurai and how my great, great grandfather, his father was a samurai. When the samurai era ended, he became an alcoholic because he lost all his power. And so his son started to think about, well, what is the meaning of life? And he realized that he wanted to live a life where he empowered others instead of having power over others. And that kind of changed the trajectory of my life. You know, obviously my mom's life. And so that was the big thing. And also my dad, he grew up strict Catholic, but without a lot of love. And then he got injured and was in the hospital and someone prayed for him and he got healed right away. And so he's like, whoa, I need to find out about this God. And so that's kind of the journey that happened for us. My journey was I believed in God my whole life. But my life greatly changed when I met this homeless harpist in downtown Denver in 2010, because I spent five years full time writing inner excellence, 50 to 60 hours a week. But I came out of that with a near mental breakdown. I had spent my life savings, $90,000 in debt. There came a point where I was speaking to these high schools in Denver, Colorado. I was thinking, okay, yeah, the book is in bookstores around the world. That's great. But you've got no money to hire someone to market the book. You don't know how to do marketing and you don't like promoting yourselves. This is not a good marketing plan. If no one hears about the book, no one's going to buy the book. If no one buys the book, then Barnes and Noble will pull it off the shelves and five years of full time work is going to go down the drain, plus all that money. And I just could not see how that was not going to happen.

B (27:29)

And effectively that did happen, correct?

A (27:32)

The Barnes and Noble pulling off the shelves.

B (27:33)

Yeah, like it did eventually.

A (27:36)

I don't remember how long it was on the shelves. It didn't happen in a matter of weeks. After a while they pulled it. I was spiraling. And when you isolate yourself, we're creative for relationship. And when you isolate yourself and have no one to tell you the truth about who you are and what's possible for you, then you can start to really spiral like I was. So I've called my friend Ricky, Ricky Scruggs, and I said, hey, tell me what to do. And he said, find a homeless person and help him. And so I find this homeless harpist around the corner, this guy playing a full size harp, really strange. I listened to him play the music. I look at my wall and I had $100, so I must have taken a cash advance out. Most of my credit cards were maxed out. And so I took all the money and I gave it to him. And I leave. I go back to where I stand and run on the treadmill to try and breathe. I come back to that same area in Denver. I'm sitting in the Starbucks, just staring off into the abyss. So much anxiety. And then the homeless harpist walks past me, stops in his tracks and says, are you the guy that gave me that money? When I was writing the book, I asked this girl from my church, I said, can you read this book and make sure it lines up with the Bible? Because I want to make sure it's filled with wisdom and it has no falsehoods in it. And she reads Anorexical. And she says, have you ever heard the word Zoe? And she said, I read your book. Have you ever heard of the word Zoe? I said, no. She said, it's a Greek word that means life. It's in the Bible a lot. It means fullness of life. I said, yes, that's what this book is about. My whole life I've obsessed about these transactions, about being successful, when what I've always really wanted was to feel fully alive. So I started to revolve my book around pursuing fullness of life and letting everything else be added to you. And so I'm in the Starbucks, and this guy, the homeless guy, he left, and he came back and he gave me a bracelet that he made and a card and a box of chocolates. And I opened up the card and it said, thank you so much for caring for me. Love, Zoe. His name was Zoe. I said, do you know what your name means? And he said, no. I said, it means absolute fullness of life. I've studied that for five years. I just wrote a book about it. I grabbed a book and I wrote, dear Zoe, thank you so much for sharing your beautiful music with me today. You don't know what that meant to me. Love, Jim. I give it to him and never see him again. And that was the start of a complete transformation in my life. April 1, about six weeks later, I walk into this guy's house. A friend of a friend starts to tell me about my life. I'd never met him before, and it was really strange. And then this gal in the house had never met her before. She draws a picture of a kite, hands it to me, says, what's wrong with this picture? And I said, well, your kite doesn't have a string. And she said, yeah, that kite is you. And I'd never even met her before. And so I was like, what is happening here? And so they invited me to a Bible study that night. Like, I believed in God, but I was just so lost. And like I said, I had isolated myself. And then that night, I felt God saying, there's nothing you've ever done or could ever do would change how much I love you. And I felt like I had the weight of the world on my shoulders, Had a million things to do. It all had to be done yesterday. I didn't know how to do it. And that weight of the world fell off my shoulders that night.

B (30:12)

Did it fall off your shoulders because you're letting go to, like, a higher power?

A (30:16)

Yeah. I surrendered my. I said, God, I'll do whatever you want. Just tell me what to do. I'll move to Nepal. I'll give away all my possessions, live in an orphanage or whatever, volunteer the rest of my life. Just tell me what to do. I just don't want this anxiety anymore.

B (30:28)

Isn't that the key to 12 step programs, too?

A (30:31)

Yeah. Yeah. Step three is surrender your will and your life over to God as you understand him. Yeah. So that's why. I mean, 12 step program has changed millions of lives all over the world. And it's because I think it's so successful because it realizes that the ego, that part of our mind that's always threatened, always comparing, never satisfied is our biggest challenge. And surrender is so hard, especially when you're talented. But at that moment I felt like I had nothing. And so to surrender nothing is much easier than to surrender a lot. You got a successful life, it's very hard to surrender. But that's the key. Surrender your little power for the power of the universe.

B (31:09)

Where does ego and sort of self centeredness and self confidence interact?

A (31:15)

Yeah, that's a great question. Because what happens to most people, especially young athletes, is they have this confusion. I know that for me to achieve my goals in sports, I need to be confident. And so does that mean I need to talk about myself? Do I need to be brash and boastful? I had this great conversation with a major league all star a year and a half ago. I said, pro athletes, they come to me because they want confidence. And that's great. Confidence is super helpful. But there's something even more powerful than confidence and that's being fully present. I said, if you have two athletes that are or performers that are the same talent, I'll take the fully present person over the fully confident one every single time. Because when you're confident, you can get careless. And just look at how many times someone that's super confident goes into a performance and they don't perform great. It's pretty common, but it's way less common if you're fully present. And so this major league all star told me, he said, I've experienced the same thing. And when I'm pitching and I'm in the bullpen getting warmed up and if I'm not dialed in, then my confidence isn't super high. But so then I have this conversation with myself. I say, look, I don't care what your outcome is. You can walk 10 guys, it doesn't matter. But you are going to be present out there. And he said, on those days, a lot of times I performed better than I did when I was fully confident.

B (32:34)

What does it mean to be present?

A (32:35)

It's a great question because a lot of people, they take it, they don't go far enough. They just like go. Just don't think about anything but what you can see or be, where your feet are. And that's such a limiting view for me. It's super important if you're a coach to explain what this is, what is it, what does it mean? And so what we're going for is this sense of freedom, this sense that anything is possible, this heightened awareness. And to get that freedom, what I call this flow of resonance where you're in sync with, you just feel really connected, grounded, centered. There's no concern for self. Imagine that you see the greatest piece of art ever you've ever seen. Or maybe that art is the Grand Canyon or rainbow or a great book or movie, whatever it is. But you're enraptured. You're totally caught up in it. Are you concerned about yourself? Are you self conscious? What are people thinking about me? What if I don't do this right? There's no thoughts of self when you're in that moment. And that's when we're at our best. There's no self. It's as Tim Keller says, self forgetful. That's why selfless is fearless. Fear is in general. It's a self centered future thing. What will happen to me next after I do this performance, after I perform, play the violin, give this talk. What will happen? What will people think? But if there's no concern for self, then there's freedom. And freedom is one of the biggest things that are lacking in performance today.

B (33:59)

There's a book written a while back called the Courage to Be Disliked. One of the key messages that I took away from that book was that by default, a lot of people just organize their lives to avoid criticism. They don't say what they actually think. They're worried about how they look. They don't want to look like an idiot. So they don't try something. Because they don't try something. They don't fail, but they also don't sort of succeed and push society forward.

A (34:23)

Yeah, for sure.

B (34:24)

What's your reaction to that?

A (34:25)

Oh, that's super, super common. The greatest resource other than love and wisdom is courage. Because we can all have it. Love is hard to sacrifice yourself. And wisdom is. It takes a lot of study and surrender. Courage. Every single person on the planet can have courage. And that's what I found. It's the most common amongst the highest performers in anything. They may not have a lot of wisdom or love, but they have courage. And that's business, sports, music, anything. And what I mean by that is they're willing to face their fears, they're willing to look foolish, they're willing to fail, they're willing to be judged. And I always have. Whenever I work with a client, people come to me. They don't come to me for small, small goals. They want to be world number one or win the world championship, Olympic Gold medal. And so I tell them, I say, okay, so this journey that you're telling me you want, it's like climbing a mountain. As you climb, and generally when we start, we're going to go pretty fast, and you may ascend pretty fast, but what's going to happen is you're going to get more exposed. There's going to be a lot more people looking at you and talking about you. And then you may fall. And if you fall, you're going to fall farther than you've fallen before. And that means the judgment is going to be stronger. If you're not willing to do that, then don't pick that goal. But if you want to achieve that goal that you're telling me you want now, you have to be willing to fail in a great way and be judged mercilessly. But it's no problem. If you don't want that goal, pick a smaller goal. That's fine.

B (35:55)

How do we teach people to have courage or self confidence to take this faith?

A (36:00)

Like that's the selflessness, that's the master of the ego, that's the willingness to look foolish and understand. So here's how. I'll give you an example. So I was at this playoff, PGA Tour playoff, in this practice round in the golfer, and I was with the plane, $100 a birdie, and the other two golfers birdie the first two holes. Now he's behind. He has a short birdie putt in the third hole and he missed it. And he said it was a short one. And he said he was nervous. And I said, you missed that because of your ego. And he said, what do you mean? I said, would you have missed that in practice at your home course? He said, probably not. And I said, yeah, you were thinking about them and you were concerned what they would think. And you really did not want to miss this in front of them. And that's what caused the nervousness and the tension that caused you to miss. Whenever you're in that moment, when you're nervous and you really want something, obviously the best performance comes when you have freedom. But it's easy to get attached to that because you're like thinking, okay, this is really important, and so get attached to it and have tension. So what you can do is ask yourself, what do I want more in this moment? To be successful right here, this one time, or to get better at these moments? In other words, to master my ego, to not be so caught up in what people think. So what happens to most people is that they come to these points in their lives where they're really uncomfortable. Maybe they're giving a speech or playing ping pong in front of a bunch of people. It doesn't matter what it is. If you're nervous and other people are watching, they come to those moments where they're really uncomfortable and they back away because they're too uncomfortable. They're too afraid of looking foolish in front of others. Whereas the most successful people, they're willing to look foolish, they're willing to make mistakes. And so I think a lot of people know that, but how do we get there? And so in that moment, it's realizing that when I'm the most uncomfortable, that's the moment that's the key for you. And it's principle number one for inner excellence. Everything is here to teach me and help me. It's all working for my good. So we're going to go look for those moments when you're most uncomfortable and remind yourself, this is my teacher. And inner excellence is about expanding what you believe is possible. There's three pillars of belief, freedom and focus. To be fully engaged in the moment, have freedom to play like a child and expand what you believe is possible. To do things you've never done and become someone you've never been. And to expand what you believe is possible. Kind of that crucial pillar is we need to find those moments where we're uncomfortable and we need to embrace that moment and the way we do it. If we understand that the key thing here is not the outcome, but it's my willingness to be in this moment and not back away, it doesn't matter if you fail horribly. You do that 10 times and fail horribly 10 times. Eventually you're going to get comfortable in those moments and then your skills will be able to match and break through. But people don't break through because they come to those moments and they sigh away. I mean, this is. We've all done it. I've done it way too many times.

B (38:46)

What do you struggle with today in relation to that? Anything?

A (38:50)

Well, it's the same thing everyone struggles with. When I come to those moments, I'm like, oh, I'm so uncomfortable right now. And then sometimes I've forgotten. It's like I had this conversation with my spiritual mentor, Nick Osborne, and he said, what God does is he gives you a jacket that's two sizes too big. And that's what a loving parent does. When you're four or five years old, you don't buy them a jacket that's perfectly fit because they're going to grow out of it too fast. So the parent's going to buy them a jacket that's a little bit too big, right. So they can grow into it. And he said that's what God does. He gives you this jacket that's too big and then you put it on, you're like, whoa, this is not good. This is not right. It doesn't feel right. What's happened? And that's what I felt so much. It's like, okay, this is not. Oh, okay, what's happening? I don't, I don't get it. This is uncomfortable. But God did that intensely. He's doing that intensely because that's where you need to. Self reliance is the biggest problem that I face. And because I've got very little power, I've got very little ability. I've only seen the world through this little lens that I want to be able to see all of reality. And so to do that, I need to surrender my little power is part.

B (39:49)

Of this Reframing failure into. There's no such thing as failure. It's just, it's not a verdict. It's like data.

A (39:57)

Yeah. Redefining success and failure for sure. Like the hall of Fame linebacker Brian Urlocker told me that I asked him, what is the difference between you and the best performers that you've ever in the NFL that you've ever competed against? And he said, most NFL players, they make a mistake and they get tentative. I make a mistake and I don't get tentative. And so that's that courage, that's that willingness to fail, that's that relentlessness that's needed.

B (40:22)

So that's what happens. I mean, it happens with people too. Like if you give a talk at work and know it doesn't go quite right, it's in your head the next time you do it. So you're less likely to be successful in a way. But the counterbalance to that would be, okay, well what do we do? We do more preparation. We, you know, we go through our mistake, we reflect on it, we learn from it and then we sort of like let go of it, move on so we don't make the same mistake again.

A (40:47)

Yeah. So failure, that's all obviously a big part of it. And you know, there's one of the principles that presupposition is there's no failure, only feedback. The emotional part is the issue. If there's no emotional aspect to it, then what does it matter if you fail?

B (41:04)

And the emotional part is the self centeredness.

A (41:07)

What happens with Self centeredness is that I need to be thinking about my life in order just to be safe. I gotta look both ways when I cross the street and feed myself and do all these things. But the problem is when I think about myself, my subconscious, which is designed to protect me, reminds me of all the potential dangers and all my mistakes. And that discomfort causes me to think I want to feel better about myself. And so I would compare myself to others. But then there's always someone that has more better things. And so then I feel insecure. And so that leads towards fear. This thinking about myself leads towards fear.

B (41:43)

How much do you think the modern world has really played with that comparison? It used to be like, I'm just picturing you go back to like 1920s, 1930s. It's like your, your reference for comparison was basically like your street, maybe your town. People lived reasonably within the same socioeconomic status. George or Beth might have got a new car, but by and large, everybody's sort of in the same boat. But now we live in a world where you flip open Instagram and these celebrities who are flying on private jets or people like, you remember the Scrooge McDuck thing, they're like, they're swimming in their money or rappers burning sort of money on videos. And how much does that mess with us?

A (42:27)

Oh, it's huge. It's huge. Yeah, it's. It's very, very difficult now. 247 comparison. And you can, you can see what anyone's doing all over the world now. It creates anxieties in mind with too many thoughts from too many concerns, and that's what it brings. It's just way too many thoughts. We need, if you want to be good at anything for a long period of time, we need to have way less thoughts and even way less breaths.

B (42:53)

One of the things that stood out to me, you know, when I, when I thought about this before reading your book, and I'm still mulling this over, so this conversation is part of my processing. I was like, oh, I don't know if that's really bad. On an individual level, it's probably bad. It's bad for mental health, you know, for Shane or for Jim. But on a society level, it actually results in really good outcomes because it motivates Jim or it motivates Shane to work harder, to push more, to challenge more, to be more aggressive, to push our limits.

A (43:25)

You're talking about seeing what everyone else is doing, that whole connectivity, you know.

B (43:29)

I wouldn't say envy because I don't necessarily think it's envy. But like wanting more for yourself. And you know, the comparison is part of wanting more. It's like, well somebody has this thing and you know, I want this thing. It's not because you want this thing as an individual. Like you don't even think about it. It's like somebody's got a Rolex and all of a sudden you want a Rolex. It's like, well no, your watch tells time and the Rolex isn't going to do anything for you other than, you know, 30 grand or whatever it is. Rolex, if you're listening, I'll take any watch you want to send me, but I use a Bremont. But like that drives the world forward in a way. Do you know what I mean? Like maybe I'm wrong about this.

A (44:05)

I think that's very well said. It drives the world forward in many ways. But also. So there's the benefit of technology. Someone has an idea in China and we can see it right away in America. The ability to be more productive and efficient and achieve more is so much higher now. So that's amazing.

B (44:24)

But it comes at a cost.

A (44:26)

But it comes at a huge cost.

B (44:28)

And the cost is individual, but the benefits are largely societal.

A (44:32)

Well, look at pornography. Now pornography is everywhere. It wasn't like before the Internet. It wasn't everywhere. You had to get it from a magazine. This negative thing now is infiltrated every single place because of technology. Technology can really help with productivity but it can really spread evil fast. It can spread conspiracy theories and negative ideas and falsehoods.

B (44:56)

Yeah, I think about that a lot. Right. In terms of things that spread are things that cause emotional reactions and we subconsciously get programmed to word things. If we're going for likes or we're going for reach or we take any sort of self worth in that, then we basically become an agent of the algorithm, if you will, and we end up unconsciously. I don't think it's conscious for most people. Some people it probably is because I don't think most people are malicious. But we feed into that. We make things more provocative than they should be or we disseminate things that we know are probably not true, but we know it'll get a reaction from people.

A (45:36)

Well another thing that happened is that now the 14 year old teenager in their basement has the same platform as the Harvard professor. Now everyone is SQL. You can't really tell. Like there's. In the past, it used to be.

B (45:51)

You know, there was gatekeepers.

A (45:53)

Yeah man, there, there was this. You would look to people that had studied a subject for years to find out what do they think about it. But now that's largely diminished. Now it's, it's, everyone is, is even.

B (46:06)

I guess the pushback on that though is now that 14 year old has access to all the world's information and you know, can do with that something that they never would have been empowered to do before. And if they have a great idea, then they have more reach than they ever would have had before. There's nobody that they have to ask permission. And so you have this dual, you know, this negative thing and also this positive thing.

A (46:28)

It's like fire. Very powerful.

B (46:30)

Yeah, definitely. How would you talk to kids about mental toughness? Like I was talking to my kids about interviewing you and you know, one of their questions was like, what would he say to a group of 12 to 14 year olds about developing mental toughness? Like, how can we go about doing that? Because, you know, we're so coddled.

A (46:49)

You know, I think about what Simon, Simon Sinek said once, that if you're a violinist and you're trying to play the violin perfectly and you have this concert, it's going to be very stressful because you could make a mistake. But if you think to yourself, I love playing the violin, I'm going to share what I love with the audience, then you've got a chance to have a great concert. And so the 12 to 14 year old has grown up in a culture that is obsessed with transactions, success, followers. And so it's a very surface level, transactional culture that they've grown up in. And so to help them understand about sacrifice and love and creating relationships is the most powerful way that you can be successful and have mental toughness at the same time is crucial.

B (47:34)

What's the process? If I'm an athlete and I come to you, or I come to you and I'm trained, like, what's that first conversation like, Jim? You know, I've been successful, but something doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel sustainable. What does that first conversation sort of look like?

A (47:49)

I want to know what you really want. Like why did you, why did you contact me? What is it that you really want besides being world number one or whatever it is? I want to know how you want to feel in your life and how you don't want to feel. If we work together, I'm going to help you learn principles and tools and develop habits of thought and action and how to get that feeling more often. What adds to it, what takes away from it. Let's Talk about your life for a second. How do you want to feel in your life? If we just had a couple adjectives.

B (48:20)

For example, fulfilled, contributing.

A (48:25)

And what about the mind or body? What does that like? Do you like clutter up there or stress or tightness or what do you like the mind and body to feel?

B (48:32)

I don't know. I don't think I've ever really thought about that. Right. And you know, I think, what do I want? I want peace. I want, okay, you know, I want to be driven, think I want to be driven more by clean fuel. And yet just tying that back. It's like the dirty fuel has been very effective.

A (48:50)

Yeah. And so that's such a crucial thing to understand is that the, that quote right there, the dirty fuel has been very effective. Fear can accomplish a lot. So can anger. You can, that can really drive people. But the long term effect is something that a lot of people don't want. For example, losing inner peace and joy. I don't tell people what to do. I try never to tell people what to do. I just want to help them clarify what they want most. And this is a good example is people that are very talented, they get caught up in what I call this competitor's trap. It's just I'm going to be more productive because every time I achieve something, I'm getting that sort of love from like, my kids are excited, my family, my co workers, the world, they're like, oh, great job. I get the cheers. And that's the trap, is that we aren't able to think deeper about our lives. Like on my rocking chair or on my deathbed, what's gonna be the most important thing and what happens to a lot of parents is they got caught up in the illusion that I just want to provide resources for my kids, like a nice house and trips to Europe or whatever it is so they can do whatever they want with their life. That's a very common. And like, what do you really want for them? Well, I just want them to do whatever they want. I just want them to be happy. And so when the parent tells me that, I say, well, if you want them to be happy, I could set up a program. It's kind of expensive, but every Friday I'll call your kid and tell them a joke at 3 o'. Clock. Is that what you want? Most of them a little laugh once a week? No, of course you want something much deeper. Right. And so what I tell parents is that if you want your kids to say, you want your kids to live a life with amazing experiences and deep enriching relationships or learning and growing and making a difference in the world. Something like that. Well, the number one thing is for you to live that and for you to live that. Now we've got a whole bunch of things that need to happen. We need to clarify your life purpose. The only way you're going to clarify your life purpose and live that purpose is we need to get rid of what's not you. So we got to simplify your life and down to that one sentence, one purpose for your life. Get rid of what's not you. And everything that you do is going to move towards that. And in that life purpose, the way we think about it is we start with how do you want to feel in your life? What do you value most? Who do you value most? Who do you want to become like? For me, and I think for many, many people now, especially teenagers, the role models are the people that have the most transactional success, hit the most home runs, got the most followers, make the most money, that sort of thing. So you're about to make a trade.

B (51:18)

Based on a friend's text, but which.

A (51:21)

You do you listen to is it we could buy a house in Tulum.

B (51:27)

Get optioning those options.

A (51:31)

We could lose everything.

B (51:34)

Or let's do a little research, get.

A (51:38)

Your head in the trade and make the investment decision that's right for you.

B (51:41)

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A (52:15)

But obviously the problem with that is that real success if you're, if you have all that outward success but your inside is filled with anxiety and stress, it's not super successful, is it?

B (52:26)

I've met through this podcast and just through life, I've been fortunate in a lot of ways to meet what other people would consider exceptional people or exceptional results. And by any monetary standard, it's true. But there's a lot of them that aren't just happy or content I guess is the but I often imagine, well if they were content, maybe they wouldn't be as driven and maybe the world wouldn't sort of push forward as much.

A (52:49)

This is a great, this is so I hear this a lot. This is a really great idea. Thank you If I'm content, I'm going to lose out on my say, productivity. I'm not going to be as motivated. And so what I've shared of that with pro athletes is that. So what you're telling me is that if we take away your anxiety, the anxiety that you have. Sorry, I don't like to say someone's personal anxiety. Take away the anxious feelings that you've had. You say that now you've got all this talent and without the anxious feelings, you're just going to sit on the couch and not do anything. I don't think that's going to happen. But the other part of it is this obsession with happiness and achievement. So say you win 23 Olympic gold medals or you become a billionaire.

B (53:31)

What's the good if you won 23 Olympic gold medals? Like, you've done that every day for years. So like the good must be the process, I would assume for that and that, you know, the billionaire, I don't know, like you can do a lot with that money for the world.

A (53:46)

So if we look at the 23 gold medals, it's very wisely said focus on the process, not the result. No, that's, that's what inner excellence is. What is that process and what is it that we really want? What are we trying to do with it? For me, it's the process of developing yourself to have, to walk in love, not fear, to pursue wisdom above all else, to have more courage. It's not about making money. Is making a billion dollars good for you? It may be the worst thing for you because what happens, I think is pretty well documented that when people get more money that they become more of who they were. If you were self centered, you're going to become more self centered because money is powerful.

B (54:24)

I think it also changes, you know, knowing a lot of incredibly wealthy people. One thing that I notice that's really interesting is their social circles get smaller and smaller and smaller. And I think in part, people start asking you for things and then you create this sort of seed of distrust almost. But they might start out normal things like you and I would ask you for a favor, hey, you know, my brother's looking for a job or something. Do you have anything? But when you do that with people who are, who are wealthy, it's sort of like, oh God, like everybody just wants something from me. And there's nobody in my life who just doesn't want something from me and doesn't, or accepts me for who I am as a person.

A (55:07)

You know, I've seen That I'll tell you a funny story about yesterday. I'm driving behind this vehicle and it said, Stay 50ft back. It was a correctional facility vehicle, I guess. So I'm assuming that there's inmates in the vehicle sometimes. I'm guessing that it's to keep you safe from these criminals. That's my guess. And I was thinking about that. I was like, yeah, that's how society is. It's like, we've got the bad people, we got to keep them away from us, good people. And I thought, well, that's kind of like the opposite of inter excellence. And what I'm trying to do with my life is I want to go be with people that need it the most and who needs it more than a criminal. That's how you make a difference in the world. That's how you live the most meaningful, fulfilling life, is you make a difference in the lives of people who need it the most. I'm not saying that I don't need it. I need it more than anybody. But I share what I'm learning and try and serve others who also need it.

B (56:00)

Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, I share everything to you publicly to varying degrees. I want to talk about guilt for a second, you know, coming back to me and like, I think this applies to many people, so I'll use myself as an example. But I think it's relevant to the hundreds of thousands of people listening to this, which is I prioritize my kids and work. That doesn't leave a lot of time for other things. And that's a choice, a conscious choice. And I'm okay, I think, by and large, with that choice. I tell myself anyway, my inner monologue is like, I can always be ambitious later after the kids make of sort of thing. But it causes a lot of guilt when I say no to things or when people invite me to things. And if I do go, I'm going because I should go, not because I want to go.

A (56:51)

So you said the kids in work is kind of your priority. We talked about this a little before. It's a hard question. Sometimes the questions I ask are a little bit hard. But what do you want most of your kids?

B (57:00)

Independence, contributing members of society. I don't believe in the pursuit of happiness. I think they need to find their own path for themselves. To the extent that I have influence as a parent, and I don't think we have as much influence at some points as we think we do, I want them to be contributing members of society, however that looks for them. But that is generally a positive outcome.

A (57:25)

Okay, so say, for example, they become an accountant, pay their taxes, and they're able to survive on their own, independent, contribute. Is that the highest aspiration for them?

B (57:37)

Not the highest, but I mean, that. That's like the. The floor, you know, what do you have for them? I want them to just be content with life, whatever that means for them. Because how am I gonna push on them my version of, like, what happiness looks like? That's not. I don't think about it that way.

A (57:52)

I asked you this question. Cause you mentioned guilt.

B (57:54)

The guilt is not from the parenting there. The guilt is social functions or events or birthday parties.

A (57:59)

What I think what you're saying is that you work really hard to provide for your family and you want the best for them. And sometimes you feel guilty because when you do that, you have to say no to a lot of things. And so that causes some guilt. Did I get that right?

B (58:13)

Yeah. You know, at the end of a day of taking care of two kids and working a long day, sometimes I just don't have. I have no energy to give to other people.

A (58:23)

Right, right. That makes sense. This is a very, very common thing. I alluded to it a little bit earlier that working really long hours to provide for your kids. And I think what happens to people is that they, in their mind, is the best thing I can do for my kids is provide them resources, spend time with them, and then give them the chance to do whatever they want. And I think that's amazing. But it's a very low bar. I think there's a much higher bar that would be even more powerful, and that would be to teach them how to walk in love, not fear. Teach them how to seek wisdom above all else. And define wisdom as an expansive vision that has unobscured views of beauty and connections and possibilities. And even on a deeper level, to know who God is and therefore who you are, what he's doing in the world, and how you can join in. So wisdom is very different than knowledge. To me, knowledge is how to take apart a lawnmower or how this speaker works. It's great, but it's temporary, it's not eternal. Whereas wisdom is things that are going to last forever. And so it's just a deeper look into life. And I think that's the best thing a parent can do, is help them learn, wisdom, encourage, and things like that. Much more so than the low bar, which is. I don't want to feel like I'm picking on.

B (59:37)

Oh, no, no, please do.

A (59:38)

Yeah. Because I want I won't feel like.

B (59:40)

You'Re picking on me. We're just doing this in front of like hundreds of thousands of people. So it's all good.

A (59:44)

Well, my goal is to love you best I can and everyone that's listening and it's really, how can we share the best possible life with our kids? That's what you want, right? And to me, that best possible life has very important things in it, like understanding that the best possible life has one foot in joy and one foot in suffering.

B (60:01)

Go deeper on that.

A (60:02)

It's a hard thing for parents because parents are like, I just want my kids to be happy. I mean, I've got eight nieces and nephews and I love them so much. I want the best for them. But. But there's this kind of running joke as now they're all. They're aged now 6 to 21, I think. And so as they're growing, I'm hopefully trying to teach them some things. And one of the kind of running jokes is that loving to give candy to a kid because they love candy, my nephews. And so we have the short term good thing, which is they have good feelings, but long term, it's not good for them. Not healthy. Right. And so that's kind of the battle that every parent faces is how much time do I need to take off of my work and stop and think about my life so I can think about meaning meaningful things that I can share with the kids? And how much time do I just. Well, that's hard to do. Like, where do I even start? Do I gotta go to the desert like Tim did? I've gotta work tomorrow. So. But the first thing is you don't have to work tomorrow. You're just, you know, you might lose your job, but you don't have to go to work tomorrow. That's your conscious choice. That's important to understand. As PJ toward player Tell me when we first started, he said, sometimes I just want to walk off the course and I don't want to come back, but I can't do that. I said, you can't? I think it's really important for you to know that you can do that. You have choices. Every day you're making choices. And what I want you to do next time you get that feeling, I want you to think it through. Like, I really want to quit right now. I want to walk off the course. And so think, okay, well, let's do that. But before we do it, let's think about what's going to happen. Okay? I'm going to tell my caddy, pack it up, we're leaving. You're going to go to the tent, say you're withdrawing, and then you fill out the form, you withdraw. You throw the clubs in the trunk, slam the trunk, you go to Chipotle, you sit there, and you talk to your cat in Chipotle. So picture that in an hour. Is that what you want to do? If that's what you want to do, then go do it. But as you think it through, I think what's probably going to happen is you're going to think, okay, do I want to sit in Chipotle with my caddy? In the back of your mind, you know, well, even if I'm hating this, there might be something I could work on to get better, which is the essence of inner excellence is to learn and grow every day. If you're out of it, you don't have a chance to win, and you know you're going to miss the cut. Well, now you've got a great opportunity. You can work on that one big draw that you wanted to work on. You can work on that chip. That was really tough. You can intentionally hit it to a really tough part of the course to work on something instead of just like, oh, this sucks. My day's done. Why do I even keep playing? This is kind of like metaphor for life.

B (62:21)

It sounds like a lot of what we're doing is changing the area of focus from our mind. And I'll give you an example. I was talking with Emily Bacaladis. She's a doctor. And one of the things that stuck with me about this conversation was she talked about how runners who are running a marathon or athletes who are doing any sort of sport and they hit a wall while they're in the competition. And what do you do when you hit this wall? And she said the world's best performers in her research were they changed the area of focus. Like, if you're halfway through a marathon, your legs start hurting, and you're focused on the finish line, you're never going to make it. But if you focus on the stop sign that's 50 meters in front of you, or the red light that you can see, or the next invisible. And then you. You focus on the next thing. Once you achieve that, you'll finish the race and you'll do it in great time. So what you're really doing is you're shortening the distance between what you want, which is to finish the marathon, and then where you're looking to achieve. And I think you had an example in your book about a swimmer who did this in the cold water.

A (63:28)

That's right, yeah.

B (63:29)

Tell me about that.

A (63:30)

Yeah. Lewis Gordon Pugh, he swam a kilometer at the North Pole in just a speedo, which most people said would be impossible. He'd die. And he didn't die. One thing about the cold, I think, is very similar to the running when you're really hurting. The problem with the cold is the mind that's thinking of the future. If you're super, super cold. But if I asked you, can you last one more second and then we're going to put you in a hot tub or a sauna, what would most people say? Or even five more seconds? Okay, there's a sauna right there. Can you go five more seconds? I think most people would say yes. Right. It's the fear of, oh, how long is this going to last? It's this projection and the expectation and how all those circumstances do. We look at the past and the pain that we've had and projected the future and what's going to happen, that's the problem. But when we can be in this moment and embrace whatever pain and challenge we have in this moment. Right. Just right now, and then take the next step, that's the power that she was sharing. So what Lewis Gordon Chu did was his performance. Coach said, you're never going to make it if you just think, I'm going to swim 1km. We've got to break this down into smaller steps. And so they had a flag every hundred meters that represented a group of people on his team. And his coach said, I don't want you to think about anything except for that flag. You just got to get to the next flag. Just the next flag.

B (64:49)

I think there's a lot about life that that enables us to continue going forward and. But I want to tie it back to what you said. It also enables us to just kind of work on this chip shot and to be present in that moment more than we're, you know, in our head. We're fast forwarding to the future, the finish line, the milestone that's in the distance. And if that gap is too large, it can prevent us from starting things that we don't want to start. It can prevent us from finishing things that we have started. You know, I did this with my kids last year.

A (65:20)

We.

B (65:21)

They wanted to run this five kilometer race with the school. They have to. And so we're training in the mornings and you can see they want to give up. And I'm like your mind gives up before your body, long before your body. And this is a mental toughness thing. This isn't a physical, you're going to collapse thing. And they hated that, but it pushed them at the same time to sort of go beyond.

A (65:45)

One of the things that you said that's so powerful is the challenge with not wanting to start things. This is the challenge that we all face. The main issue with that is that your first step is too big. We need to make that next step smaller. And James Clear talks about this in Atomic Habits, that great book. If you want to start running, can you put your shoes. Your running shoes by the door? That's the first step. Can you just do that? And the next day, can you just put them on and walk around the house and take these very small steps? It's like, Teddy Scott, Scotty Scheffler's wonderful caddy, the world number one. He's also a coach. And he says, what I try to do with most of my clients is help them lower their expectations to what they know they can do. It's kind of like, how can I help them be present? Can you. If you're putting. Can you hit this on the center of the club face?

B (66:37)

I love that a lot. I think that's super powerful. The habit thing is interesting to me. Jim is a good friend. I have this idea of things are hard when they're choices, but they're not when they're rules. And so one of the things for me is like, I want to work out every day. I want to be healthy. That enables the foundation of all the other things that I do if I don't do that. But I hate working out. I'm not one of those people who shows up at the gym and they're super happy. There's a guy at the treadmill this morning at the gym. He's smiling. I'm like, who are these people? It's 5am what is in your coffee? This is insane. I want whatever you're having, but I definitely do not share it. And so I just created this rule, and I got it from Daniel Kahneman. Not the workout rule, but creating rules for ourselves. And I work out every day, so duration or scope can change, but there's not a choice about whether I work out.

A (67:30)

Like a mantra you have.

B (67:31)

Yeah, so it's like a mantra.

A (67:34)

Very powerful.

B (67:35)

And those seem very powerful. And this ties into where I was going with. This is your. You have mantras. And one of them I found really powerful, which is. But I also have a Question about. You say give 100% of what's available.

A (67:50)

Yeah.

B (67:51)

So if you have 40% today, you didn't sleep well, you were up late last night, you had maybe too many drinks with your friends, whatever you give a hundred percent of, whatever that 40% is. The question that comes to my mind immediately when I hear that is like I have relief. That's my first feeling. It's like, oh, finally, like somebody understands me. On the other hand, it's like, that's an excuse.

A (68:12)

This morning I drove here from central New Jersey and the GPS said it was going to take under two hours. And it was all close to four hours and through rush hour traffic into Manhattan. And I've been working on a book and not a ton of sleep lately. And so the thoughts on the way here, one, I was really working hard and not getting caught up in my circumstance of rush hour traffic for four hours. But the thought of, what if I'm forgetful or it doesn't go well and I don't share some good ideas. And I was in the bathroom as soon as I got here and then I thought about that idea of goal number one, give the best of what you have. And I thought, you know, today could be. Today's like a 30 or 40% day. I don't have a lot to give, but I'm going to give the best of what I have. And that was very helpful to me as I just before I walked into this room.

B (69:03)

It's empowering in a way. And then there's this side of me that on the other side, like the two sides of my brain, if you will, like fighting about this, this mantra. And I'm like, you know, one side is like, yes, this is perfect. And the other side is like, well, if you do that like two or three days in a row, what is that? Who are you? Why would that be okay?

A (69:28)

And so I think, well, there are sometimes some weeks, some months, some seasons where it's going to be like that. And I think it's super important to know. When I think about your personality, I think it reminds me of people that are talented and driven and have you called it guilt? Whether it's guilt or some other, that part of their mind says you're slacking, like, yeah, but that's, it's constant. And so I find it very common. Like people that are, that are talented. Here's an example of what happened to me. Something that's a little bit different, but I thought was, I found very intriguing. I went on this, this boat ride Sailboat, which I mentioned it earlier. I get on the boat. Before I get on the boat, I was wearing an OURA ring, a whoop and a bio strap. Three things every night to bed to track my physiology and share it with my clients and do some research. And so I've had a very perfectionist personality, very detail oriented and just feeling like I just want to be the best. And if I need something on Amazon, just a couple swipes, okay, it's coming tomorrow. Well, get on the boat. As soon as we got on the boat, he said, we're not going to see civilization for two weeks. And I was like, okay. He grew up on a farm. He had like one article of clothing. I had a suitcase. I mean, I was in Tahiti for a month. But I'm watching him. We're looking in the cupboards of food and there's some bread, but it had mold on it. And he's like, oh, no, just pull off the mold. You know, that's fine. It's fine. He's eating it and I'm horrified. And then food's falling on the. He grew up on a farm. Food's on the floor. Oh, it's okay. Just eating it. And after a while I'm watching him, like one article of clothing and like, his life is a lot freer than mine, a lot more relaxed. I've got to have things a certain way. I can't eat food off the floor. I'm not going to pick off the mold. And I realized I was very limiting my life with that perfectionism. So since that trip, thanks to Chris, I've given myself a lot more freedom. Now I don't feel I've noticed that limitation that I thought was. Was just a positive, this high bar that I. This standard. And I've realized that it was really limiting my freedom.

B (71:40)

What are your other daily mantras?

A (71:42)

You know, one of the reminder that I've had for years on my phone that's been the most powerful for me is God is with you, Jim.

B (71:48)

Why is that powerful for you?

A (71:50)

Well, it's like when I shared when this whole thing went down and everything happened that first week in January. At first it was overwhelming. And then I realized, what is the best thing about this? The best thing is that I get to go into Philadelphia and work with my hero, Shane Claiborne, this Christian activist who moved in with the poor 25, 30 years ago and do these amazing things with amazing people in Kensington. That's the best part about this. It's not any other transaction that I'M going to get.

B (72:24)

Does it make you feel less alone?

A (72:26)

Does what make me feel less alone?

B (72:27)

If God is with you, yeah.

A (72:29)

This isn't for Jim Murphy to be successful. The first week, all the media was like, jim Murphy doing this. Look at this author, whatever. And I was like. First I was like, why do people keep talking about me? I'm nobody. I'm insignificant. It's the message, selfless is fearless. Then I kind of realized, oh, I guess that's the American dream, to be rich and famous. I mean, it's an illusion that it's the best life, but that's what everybody wants. What I want people to learn is that the best life is not a life with good circumstances. The best life is a life where you feel fully alive. What happens is most people, especially in Western culture, they're just constantly trying to get better and better circumstances for themselves and their kids to make life easier. That's what most people do, isn't it? And that's the great illusion. An easier life is not the best life.

B (73:14)

I mean, to push back on that just for a second, because my mind just naturally goes into yes and no again. Yes. There's a part of me that agrees with that. There's a part of me that looks at these cameras here and is like, these would not exist without people pursuing a dream and ambition and doing that perhaps at the cost of social relationships, at the cost of being a parent, at the cost of being the best partner they could be.

A (73:41)

Yeah, for sure.

B (73:42)

And I don't advocate for those things for anybody. Unconsciously, however consciously, they're the reason we have medicine. They're the reason, like, society, people have sacrificed. Yeah, people have. Or, you know, I look at what happened where I used to work post 9 11, is like, people worked 16 hours a day, seven days a week for seven years. And in that process, what they were doing was sacrificing for something larger than themselves. They felt a part of something, and it wasn't religion or God, it was. But there was meaning and purpose to it. And the byproduct of that was sacrificing being a parent, sacrificing their relationships with other people in order to achieve that, in order to push that forward. And so I have these, like, dueling sets to my mind where on individual level, I'm like, you're 100% correct. But on a societal level, I don't know if that's the best outcome for society, but I do think on an individual level, it's probably the best outcome for individuals.

A (74:46)

Okay. Let's look at the best possible. Life has one foot in joy and one foot in suffering. First of all, this is not how I would prefer it. I'm not a fan of suffering. What I'm saying is that I believe that this is just how the universe works. It's not something I'm advocating for. I'm just explaining what I found. And, and first, just the basic one is physical fitness. So you're talking about if you want to build stronger muscles, you have to break them down. That's just how the universe works. You can't do it sitting on the couch. You have to make the muscles sacrifice and suffer to get them bigger. That's just how it works. And it's the same thing with wisdom and courage. You can't gain courage by constantly just making yourself more and more comfortable. There's this quote. I can't remember who it was that I loved. I think it was a guy named Gary Brucka. But the quote is aging is the aggressive pursuit of comfort.

B (75:38)

Oh, interesting.

A (75:40)

So if you want wisdom, then you have to go through things. You need that jacket that's too big, two sizes too big. You have to have trouble. You have to have adversity in your life. There's no way you can't just read about it on the couch.

B (75:52)

Why do you think? We think about training our bodies, but we rarely think about training our mind. And it doesn't matter if you're an athlete or a knowledge worker or. Or we think food, nutrition in. We think body training muscles, but we rarely think about.

A (76:09)

Well, we're led around by our eyes. We live this transactional life, this third world results and circumstances. So if I put in this effort, I can see what happens. But if I gain wisdom, I can't see that with my eyes. Very easy. If I'm gain become a more loving person, that's hard to see with my eyes. But if I make more money, get a nicer house, et cetera, I can see that. And that's that surface level, transactional world that we live in that we get sucked into.

B (76:38)

That's a really good point. We always end these interviews with the same question. I'm so curious what your answer is going to be. Which is what is success for you right now?

A (76:47)

There's so much pain in the world, suffering and starvation, and in America, so much division and need. So I think of success for me in two things. One is to become the person that I was created to become. To live my purpose, to share God's love, wisdom and courage. With the world and then in doing that, to provide tangible help to people that are hungry and imprisoned and refugees and widows and orphans to help them.

B (77:18)

That's a great answer. Thank you so much for taking the time today.

A (77:22)

You know, I was not expecting such amazing questions. Thank you.