← The Knowledge Project
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:00]
A
If you go through life over indexing and caring too much what people think about you, that's your ceiling.
- [00:10]
B
I want to start with something you said last time we talked, which is most people are underperforming relative to their ability. Walk me through that.
- [00:19]
A
There's a term that I came across many years ago called the central governor hypothesis and essentially conveys the fact that most people underperform. And any observer of the human condition, I think going back to forever, agrees that that's probably true. Now why is that? Well, you have to sort of delve into sort of human biology and genetics and understand, so what's the purpose of the brain? Generally to keep you alive long enough to reproduce, right. At a fundamental biological level. But we're not designed to overperform, we're designed to survive. And so over performance or achieving one's potential requires sort of a cognitive decision to push oneself there, right? So to illustrate it, I think a common illustration is if you look at marathon runners or any extreme athlete, marathon runners, triathletes, these are people who design their lives around pushing human potential. And so it begs the question, well then if these are people who are even the ultra marathoners, right, People who do five marathons, marathons over the course of five weeks or five days, whatever they do, how many of them push themselves to the point of death? Like how many people push their limits? The answer is typically it's a very small percentage, single digits. If you have five rounding numbers, 5 million marathoners, maybe 5 or 10 die in a year. And most of the times because they get hit by a car or some other condition. But it's not because they push themselves too hard, they cross the finish line and they're still alive and they go and they carbo load and so forth. Now why is that? Because the brain has built in mechanisms to shut us down so that we don't do self harm, right? And so those are the same mechanisms that at a drive level for human beings, you know, govern our conduct. So under performance is built into the human condition so that we can stay alive. And that's why, you know, they do these really interesting studies with sort of single cell organisms where you put them in a petri dish and you make the cond. So you put these various, they use various types of organisms and you make it hot on one side of the plate and they gravitate to comfort and you make it too cold. So really at a fundamental biological level, we are all programmed to seek comfort and safety. Well, comfort and safety are the exact opposite of over performance or realizing one's potential. And so therein lies the starting point, sort of table stakes. If you want to be great at something, the old adage is you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable, but that's something you have to train yourself to do. And so the central governor hypothesis suggests that, yeah, there's a governor in the human brain. And that governor is built structurally by a couple things. Number one, the survival instinct. Number two, the desire for comfort. Number three, the desire at a fundamental biological level for our DNA to replicate itself. There's this view from geneticists that we as humans, we talk about human agency. Human agency being defined as the degree to which we have conscious control over our lives, agency acting on your own behalf. The fundamental question is, do human beings have free will? Right. William James and the pragmatists asked that question. And again, most observers of the human condition suggest that we have less control over ourselves than we believe we do. And so what did William James conclude? He said, my first act of free will is to choose to believe in free will. And if you really think about that and you go down that rabbit hole and then you look at the studies, people think that they're thinking where they're generally rearranging their prejudices. And so the few acts of agency we really have, one of them is to decide our path and then cultivate the habits which then become unconscious to push us out to the tail end of the curve in any domain. But again, we all default to underperformance. So to become really, really good at something requires an act of agency. To choose to become really, really good at something, that's table stakes. That's the opening bid. And then from there, that's where the work begins. So y.
- [04:47]
B
So if I choose to become good at something, I'm going to be good at something. Like, what is one practical thing that people can take away from this? To change in their life to help them realize their potential.
- [04:57]
A
Right. So, but you know the research on, like, you know what the data shows on new year's resolutions, right? 95% of them are over by the end of February, and Then the other 4% are over by the end of March. So the choice is just the beginning, Right. I think the first thing to understand is that we are all creatures of habit. As Albert Bandura said, behavior is a cause of behavior. Right? Behavior is a cause of behavior that the more you do something on a probability scale, the more likely you are to do the same thing. And so if you really want to get out of you Know your situation or you want to do it differently. There's. There's a couple things to think of. Number one, it's in the doing, not in the thinking or the saying, right? One of the things I always say to people is, it really doesn't matter what you say. It doesn't matter what you feel. It doesn't matter what you believe. It just matters what you do, right? And taking that step, that action step, that behavioral step is a huge part of it. John Dewey, the American philosopher, beautiful, beautiful insight. He said, we don't think our way into a pattern of living. We live our way into a pattern of thought. I mean, just really think about that. We don't think our way into a pattern of living. We live our way into a pattern of thought. And what he meant by that is, you know, going back to your question, how do people change? Most people think, you know, if I'm going to change my mind. And what Dewey is saying is, no, no, no, changing your mind is one way toward change. What he's saying is, we don't think our way into the living, into the doing. We live our way into a pattern of thinking. So what he's essentially suggesting, what I believe is, change what you do, and as you change your behavior, then you change your mind. So going back to what I said earlier, it doesn't matter what you think, what you feel, or what you say. It's just a matter of what you do. And so to your original question, what is one thing someone can change if they want to be better. Find out the comfortable habit that's holding you back, whether it's your phone, whether it's your food, whether it's the excuse you tell yourself, or just one thing, change that, and then hold yourself accountable on a repeated basis to that one thing. There's an everydayness to excellence. There's an everydayness to it. People often ask me, well, you know, I want to write a book. Dr. Gio, how do you write a book? And what I say is, you sit down and you write. You want to write a book, you write a book. You don't wait for inspiration. You sit down every day. And on the days when nothing's coming, you stay in your seat and you write it badly because you have to write through the bad days to get to the good days. And I've conducted many writing workshops for master's students at Rollins College and Emory University. And in writing workshops, I mean, that's what they talk about. If you want to write a book, if you want to be A writer. Writers write every day. Say it badly, write it badly, but don't get up. And so that everydayness is the hallmark of excellence in every domain.
- [07:52]
B
Why do some people grab onto these basics and use them and get better at them and slightly better at them and keep doing them and some people don't?
- [08:00]
A
Yeah, you're asking a question and you say some people. I would say everybody. Now, why is that? Not to sort of over psychologize this, but I do think that there's a lesson and it's that if you go back to fundamental human motivation, like why do people do what they do? And in fact, one of the earliest psychological studies I did in sports psychology was I asked, I interviewed 200 golfers, some on the PGA Tour, LPGA Tour, good amateurs, regular amateurs, and the question was simple. It's why do you play golf? And you'd think it's an easy question, why do you play golf? But what emerged from that was probably one of the most profound insights into, really into human motivation and golf just being sort of a petri dish for humanity. And what you realize is some people play for love of the game. I love golf. Some people play because they're competitive. I want to beat that other person. Some people play for money. But they use golf as a vehicle to solve other things in their life. Well, if you extrapolate that and you ask doctors, you know, why'd you go into medicine? Lawyers, why'd you go into law, you ask teachers, why'd you go into teaching? What you come to realize is people tend to bifurcate into two different camps. So going back to human motivation of why do people do what they do, people who have a mastery motivation, they engage in their craft or their task, it's governed by a few things, like it's intrinsic motivation. They do the act for the sake of the act itself. Right. They're not using it as a vehicle to get somewhere to do a thing. It's like the satisfaction's in the doing. Now, the alternative path of why people do what they do, it's called an ego orientation. And it's in the name the meaning of it. It's why do you do what you do? It's to enhance the ego. It's I do this for money. I do it to feel important. I use the thing as a vehicle to make myself feel better. So if you go into medicine because you want to make a lot of money, but you actually don't care about medicine, invariably you're going to burn out. If you go into law because you want to be rich, but you don't love law, you're going to burn out. Same with all sports. Same really everything in life. So what you find at the very tail end of the distribution, the top 1% of 1%, the Alzheimer's, the origin of the greatness. Right. The first order variable, the first domino to fall is they tend to gravitate toward their calling intuitively. And the reason why they do it is for the love of the craft itself. It's a calling and they protect that purity. And so what you'll often also often see is people who have a rebirth or a renaissance in their careers. It's like, where did this come from? What they often say is, I fell in love. It's Kelly Slater. I fell in love with surfing again. It's Brooks Koepka in golf recently. I love golf. Again, it's musicians who are practicing their craft late in life. And so the journey, the developmental path is it starts with a mastery orientation. You do the thing because you love to do it, then you start getting rewarded for it. And then the rewards itself become more powerful than the thing. The then you lose yourself, then you rediscover yourself and you find your way back to mastery, back to the calling itself. Yeah.
- [11:24]
B
How do we fall in love with what we do though? Like, if I go into golf because I love it and maybe I ebb and flow through. Oh, you know, I start winning and I switch from this mastery mindset to this ego mindset and I start losing. That's very different than an office worker or an executive in a company who has a job and they kind of like it, but they want to get better at it. They want to reach their potential.
- [11:48]
A
Ye.
- [11:49]
B
How do we switch into a mastery focused mindset and something that we might not fully love?
- [11:56]
A
Yeah, no, that's a great question. And it goes back to what we touched upon already, which is sort of the idea of human agency and free will. Like, well, what do we actually have control over? So there's a book that I'm sure you've read, it's called Finding Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. You know, the idea of flow or a flow state, it's the highest form of the human condition. Right. If you wanna look at what human beings are capable of, just, just go find people who have ever been in flow. Now the research on flow is fascinating because it shows a couple of things. Number one, we can get into flow doing almost anything. Gardening, people, you know, people can get into flow, gardening or Cooking, great conversations or flow states, playing sports, being in love, reading a book. Now, what are the characteristics or the hallmarks of flow? Number one, time is transcendent, right? It's the idea that when you get lost in a great book and you look up, you're like, that was three hours. Or a great conversation. Two hours went by. Three hours. Athletes have told me. It's like when you're really in a flow state, you look up, the game is over. It went by very, very quickly. There's a paradox of effort. Hard things feel easy. There's a paradox of perception. You're so lost in the moment, you're so present that you forget that you're being watched or there's an audience or there's an outcome. And so human beings who are able to transcend their limitations typically get lost in a flow state. So if you ask me, what advice would I give to people who are sort of stuck in the middle part of the distribution or just average, but who want to be great? I mean, there's a few things. Number one, be mindful of your habits. Number two, get comfortable being uncomfortable. But number three, get good at being fully present. Get in the moment. John Dewey, in a book called How We Think, John Dewey said, there's no greater enemy to effective thinking than a divided interest, a fragmented interest. You partition your hard drive where you're here, but you're thinking about something else. You're here, you're thinking about. You're never fully present. The best of the best are present for everything, all the time. So again, it's a bit of a Buddhist tradition, but the habit of being present is a hallmark of excellence. So if people want to be great at their jobs, you know, get into flow. Well, how do you get into flow? Get present, challenge yourself, fall in love with the details and love the mundanity of your work.
- [14:28]
B
I want to come back to flow for a second, is that I'm assuming that's common amongst all top performers, that people are fully present. How would you explain that to somebody? Like the fully present? What do I do when I'm in a meeting and my mind starts thinking about picking up groceries or the kids, or all of a sudden I'm not fully present. How do I bring myself back to fully present?
- [14:53]
A
Like everything else, being present is a habit. And like any other habit or skill, you can practice it. So you can't just hope to call on, you know, on deep immersion or presence or flow if you're not in the active habit of being present. Okay, so it Begs the question, what gets us out of the present moment? Well, it's distraction, it's attachment. And so the good news for anybody who wants to get better is a little bit of practice on a consistent basis goes a long way. So for example, what do I do in my own life knowing as much about psychology as I do every Friday at the end of the day, I take 10 or 15 minutes and I ask myself a simple question. I say, what are my attachments that have attached themselves to me that are interrupting my thoughts that I didn't put there by conscious choice? And what am I thinking about that I didn't choose to think about? What am I feeling that I didn't choose to feel? And you come to realize is as we go through the journey of life, just by default to the structure of the human brain, we attach to things or things attached to us. Actually goes back to what Nietzsche said. You know, Nietzsche and Carl Jung both agree on this idea that we don't have ideas. Ideas have us right. We don't often choose to think or feel the way we feel. Things happen to us that govern it's conditioning. It's really true. And so what I do, the active practice of detaching from things that are shaping my thoughts or feelings or behavior, I detach from them. And what you come to find is what fills in that space is psychological freedom and presence. So a little bit of practice with these things on a regular basis and all of a sudden you come to find you have psych psychological freedom and from there you can explore the best version of yourself. So yeah, every few years a new
- [16:46]
C
platform earns its place at the top of every smart advertiser's media plan. The people who find it early build advantages that are very hard to close. Applovin just had the most remarkable run in ad tech history and now they've opened that engine to businesses like yours. Over a billion people play mobile games every day, focused, not scrolling, with no feed competing for their attention. Applovin puts your brand in front of the right customers and optimizes purely for your growth. Brands like Wayfair, Kitsch Ridge and Nectar are already scaling on it, while most of their competitors don't even know it exists. Ready to find your next million customers? Go to applovin.com shane and launch your first campaign today. Video is the most effective way to communicate, but it's always been too slow and expensive to produce. Heygen eliminates that. You go from idea to professional video in minutes. No camera, no crew. Their avatars are rated the Most realistic on G2. And over 30 million people are already using hey Gen, including 85% of the Fortune 100. You can even reach an audience in over 175 languages with AI, lip sync, sync and translation. Same voice, perfectly matched. If you're someone who communicates at scale, take a look. Your first three videos are free. Heygen.com H E Y G E N.com
- [18:16]
B
how curated important is shaping our environment. And I mean this in, in the sense of not only our physical environment, but our mental environment, the information that we consume, the people we let into our life.
- [18:28]
A
Incredible question. There's a song by an old band called Sister Hazel and the lyric goes, if you want to be somebody else, change your mind. And I liked the band, but I loved that line. But the reality is, the line is wrong. The reality is, if you want to be somebody else, change your environment. Now why is this true? So there's this idea in psychology. It's called situated cognition. Situated cognition and situated cognition conveys the idea that the human brain is constantly interacting with the environment around it on both conscious and unconscious levels. Primarily unconscious. So think of it this way. When we're hot, we sweat, but we don't choose to sweat. When we're cold, we get goosebumps. But we don't choose to get goosebumps. The human brain interacts with the environment on an unconscious level. In fact, the unconscious interaction in the environment is the primary vehicle of human conduct. And so in the book Atomic Habits, the author has this really beautiful, really beautiful line that's getting a lot of traction in the world these days, says, we don't rise to the level of our goals. We shrink to the level of our systems. What does he mean by that? What he means is, let's say that you aspire to greatness, but you're in a school system or a classroom or a company or on a team that doesn't support your path to excellence, right? When you go to take risks, you get slapped back. If you're a hedge fund portfolio manager and you're in a place that is so risk averse, right, that's governed by a risk manager or risk officer who's just trying to keep his or her job, and so they're playing it safe. So every time you ask for more capital or you want to go outside of your risk limits, it's an automatic no. Well, all of a sudden that becomes right. That becomes your ceiling. If you really want to understand human potential, ask yourself this question. What is greater the difference between two individuals or the difference within an individual and himself or herself. So think about just you and I. Let's say a company is looking to hire someone and I go, should we hire Shane or should we hire Geo? And they profile us and they look at the differences and they come to realize, well, they're pretty close to the same IQ or intelligence, similar education. It's a hard choice, but we'll go with Shane. But they never ask the question, what does Shane look like at his best or his worst, and where is he in that regard? So they hire. They spend all these resources profiling people to make sure they hire the right person. But once the person gets onboarded, they don't really look at the differential of the person at the best or at their worst or how do we get the best out of them. Now, here's what research shows. Research shows that the differences within individuals is typically greater than between individuals in society today. We spend so much time comparing candidate A versus candidate B. There's more psychological alpha within individuals than between individuals and teams in organizations and schools. Spend so much time comparing student A and student B or kid, not realizing, and this is where I live, it's like, okay, what can this person be? A person comes to me, hey, can you help me? It's like, okay, well, let's look at where you're at right now. What are the mechanisms of suppression? What are the things that you asked earlier? What keeps people from overachieving? What are the. We call them the mechanisms of suppression that lead to underperformance or underachievement. And they're known, they're largely known what these mechanisms of suppression are. You start removing them and helping people identify them, and then all of a sudden they start to blossom and therein lies there's a greater difference within an individual than there often are between two individuals. And what contributes to that? It was a mission that had meaning to you, and you were part of a system of collective problem solving, solving hard problems together. And whenever a company or an organization in various fields, more and more that I'm speaking to at a leadership level, and this is true in schools as well in teachers, job description should converge and boil down to, really, it's one sentence, your job description. Everywhere I go, it's always the same. Be good at solving hard problems together or get good or learn. Actually, if I really were to articulate it, learn how to be great at solving hard problems together. Now that's a easy thing to say and a really hard thing to do because ego put a hard problem in front of two people, never mind 10 especially smart people who are used to being right, but they think there's a different solution than the other person and that they're wrong, but they've never been wrong before. And they get defensive and it leads to argument, people closing themselves off. But if you can actually participate in a system where people are competent and capable, open and willing, and their highest calling is to be great at solving hard problems together, that's the path to an autotelic state of being. It's the path to flow. It's the path to greatness and excellence. Two stories I'll illustrate that. Number one, Einstein. He was stuck on the problem for a very, very long time. And he was on a walk with a younger colleague trying to explain. Here's what I'm working on. And in the process of deconstructing and dissecting his own thoughts and explaining it to someone, that's when he had his aha moment. It was an epiphany. And then over the course of the next three months, he wrote two papers that led to the Nobel Prize. So he was stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck. The synthetic function of language. The process of trying to articulate his thinking led to the epiphany. Crick and Watson discovered the structure of DNA. It's the same thing. It was through the interactive process. There were four researchers on that team, but it was the interaction of problem solving that happened. And so if people are trying to elevate and realize the full expression of their talents and abilities, the first place you have to look, I said earlier, you have to look at your habits and your behavior. The reality is the first place you have to look is your systems and your environment. Whether it's a place that has all the hallmarks of leading to excellence, which is honesty and truth telling, which is challenge and skill development, which is no ceiling. And one of the hallmarks, by the way, of these. Daniel Coyle articulated this in really nice little book. He calls them talent hotbeds. They're places that tend to graduate disproportionate amount of excellence. So great singers tend to come out of this little school in Dallas, Texas. Around Dallas, Texas, for a period of time. Great tennis players came out of Russia, great baseball players out of the Dominican Republic, great female golfers out of South Korea. If you look at the world of golf historically, great golfers out of Texas and California, these great golf states, one of the hallmarks of talent hotbeds is what do people do with mistakes. And so, by and large, the primary mechanism of Suppression. Why people don't achieve what they're capable of achieving has to do with how they're conditioned with dealing with mistakes and failure. But if you really want to be great, put yourself in an environment that allows you the freedom as challenge and accountability and rigor and detail. But that's not over punitive of mistakes.
- [26:33]
B
When you're interviewing somebody, I want to know the signs of greatness and the signs of this person isn't as good as they think they are. What are the markers of, you know, Steve Cohen called you a canary in a coal mine. But also you have an incredible ability to identify talent in very short period of time. What are the questions you ask? How do you do that?
- [26:59]
A
Of all the variables that psychology measures, the two that I think are the most important are confidence and motivation. Confidence and motivation. People think it's intelligence, but it's actually not. So the story of intelligence is the way we define it is a very muddled story. So intelligence, this idea of iq, which people still use as a marker of intelligence, IQ meaning intellectual quotient, started I think it was in the late 1800s in France. And Alfred Binet, the French government, said, hey listen, we need to be able to identify kids who are struggling in school and if we could identify them early, we could do an intervention. That's all it was. So Alfred Bernay went and did some studies, interviewed a bunch of people and came with his intellectual quotient, said if we measure here, these are the kids who will struggle in school. And when this research made its way to America, America did with it what Americans do, let's commercialize it. So they started selling people on this idea that the higher iq, the smarter you are, it's undeniably false. Higher IQ doesn't mean you're smarter. And then if people went just maniacal and intelligence tests, which is a multibillion dollar industry, and that's why it's stayed alive to this day. The SATs and the ACT and educational testing systems, multibillion dollar industry. That's the reason the idea hasn't died. It's financially driven. It's a nonsensical idea. Now you can argue that there is a thing called G, which is general intelligence. But again, so a Harvard researcher, a guy named Howard G. Who started doing research and developmental psychology, then cognitive psychology, and he posited the idea that humans have what he called multiple intelligences, and it challenged the status quo of iq. And what he says is human beings have individual autonomous intelligences, for example, verbal intelligence, mathematical intelligence and all These intelligences have their own characteristics. Equals interpersonal intelligence, which you're a genius at. What's interpersonal intelligence? Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to read someone else in real time and sort of sense where they're at emotionally, cognitively, and steer them. Great politicians have great interpersonal intelligence, great school teachers. The fourth kind of intelligence is called intrapersonal intelligence. The ability to know yourself. How smart are you actually? If you have a perfect memory but have no self awareness, that's not intelligence. Gardner talks about bodily kinesthetic intelligence, the ability to know your body in space. Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Martha Graham, the great dancer. Knowing your body and to be able to have this proprioception, spatial intelligence that great architects have to see things dimensionally. Anyway, your question is, what do I look for when I'm screening people? Well, I want to understand what is the entire profile of this person? Where do they come from? What's their source of their motivation? How do they handle failure? I want to know the degree to which they tell the truth. Because in most cases when people are having a conversation, particularly in an interview, they're presenting a version of themselves that they want you to see, but that's not the version of themselves that's going to show up in the workplace. So one of the most important questions is this. It's tell me a time in your life where you had to work with somebody you didn't like. Could have been in elementary school, in middle school, been a project, in college, your last company, somebody who you fundamentally disagreed with and then viscerally didn't like but had to work with. How'd you handle that? And if you ask a version of that question and you just sit back, that will reveal the kind of person they are, and it will also reveal how they will respond when faced with adversity in the workplace. Particularly if you're in a hard industry where you're trying to solve hard problems. How do you handle conflict? To what degree do you blame others? To what degree do you shut down? To what degree are you engaging? Research shows that companies that put brand management or image management over problem solving tend to deteriorate pretty quickly. So it has to be an environment or a culture where smart people are empowered to solve hard problems, but they care more, in your case, more about the mission than about the self. So I look for all of these things and again, it depends on the role because a lot of people are capable or competent. But if you put the right person in the wrong role, they're never going to flourish. So it has to be a fit for the exactness of the role itself.
- [31:47]
B
Are there any other questions that come to mind that you think are particularly revealing about people?
- [31:55]
A
What is the biggest obstacle you've ever had to overcome in your life? The follow up theorist. What resources did you lean on to overcome that obstacle? In other words, how did you overcome it? So people stop at what obstacle did you overcome? Where it becomes interesting psychologically is how did you overcome them? So going back to a really important interview question is, yeah, tell me the hardest thing you've ever overcome. And then what did you enlist? Did you go to other people? Do you have a network? What beliefs did you engage? It's really important to understand the method by which people overcome their obstacles. They have to rely on themselves. And this is what Tiger woods was great at for a period of time. It's like, hey, here's what his self talk was. You got yourself into this mess, now get yourself out of it. And that's the best version of Tiger. Obviously we've seen some other versions of Tiger, but the best version of Tiger is Tiger telling himself, you got yourself into this mess, now get yourself out of it.
- [32:56]
B
One thing I find with myself, that I catch myself doing now, that I never was even aware of until recently is shrinking the gap between where I am and what do I want to accomplish. So not the ultimate goal, but the first step. So we often look at the thing that we want to accomplish. I want to be xyz, I want to. And that the gap between where you are and accomplishing that thing just seems really big. And I find that shrinking the gap. And I was talking with Dr. I think it was Dr. Emily Bacalatis on the show and she gave the example of a marathoner. And I thought this was like really apt. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. But she said, you know when their legs start hurting and it's mile 11, like they're not thinking about the finish line, they switch their focus to the next stop sign, the next red light. And then you do that and then you do it and you do it and all of a sudden you're back in your flow state. You're back in the state where you're either not feeling it or you work through the pain.
- [33:57]
A
So oftentimes people, the people like in golf, people don't call me when things are going well. I've got an email that came in this morning. For the first time in my career, I'm in a slump. First time in my career I'm in a Draw. First time in my career I'm not making money. So these are the messages I get. How do you walk someone out of a draw? Let's say you're running $500 million and you're down. I don't know, let's call it. Let's say your limits of $500 million. The company's going to fire you if you're down 20 and you're down 15, and you don't have a lot of room to go. But you need to put on risk, because scared money don't make money. So you need to put on risk. But you know if you're wrong again, you're out of a job. The path to getting out of a trial, the step one is to get in the habit of making money again. But, like, you don't see where people make mistakes is they look at the size of the draw and they start trying to make it all back in one swing. They just start panicking. And what people do in panic is they lose their rationality. They see threat instead of opportunity. All sorts of characteristics of a PM and a draw. And what I say is, we're not going to make it all back. Let's make $100, let's make $100 this week. So bring down your risk, and let's get in the habit of making money. And then it's like, but I'll never get out of this if I'm. It's like, no, I understand that. But what happens is, as Vince Lombardi famously said, winning is a habit. And so, unfortunately, is losing. Well, so is making money. So is doing well. In golf, a confident investor, when he looks out in the world, sees the world as a place of abundance, sees opportunity, sees the market as a place of abundance, sees opportunity everywhere. I don't have enough time to get to all the opportunity. I don't have enough capital. I need more money because there's so much money to be made in this market. When we lose our confidence, we see the market as a place of threat. Everything is dangerous. Landmines everywhere. And so you come off your ability to take any risk because all you see is danger. And so that's why you have to protect your confidence. Why is that? Because fear distorts our ability to see the world accurately. Fear is distortive. Fear means danger is everywhere. At least we perceive danger everywhere. So the first thing I have to do with a PM is get them in a habit of making small dollars. Why? Because the biggest source of confidence is success. If you get in the habit of making $100, it's like, well, the next we make $1,000. Now you're confident again. Now you see opportunity. See opportunity. You start deploying capital into better opportunities. You're more patient when a move. So one of the characteristics of confidence versus fear is let deploy money into an idea and that idea moves against you. Do you cut the position or do you put more money into it? Well, if you love the thesis and you love the work and you love the idea, you double down. You invest in an idea that's going against you. When you're scared, you see threat and danger. You pull out at the wrong time. You over trade an idea. So you have to protect your confidence at all costs. Confidence and motivation. But when you're scared, you never see that path. And so step, step one for anybody in crisis, honestly, whether it's a golfer or a pm, people in private markets, venture capital firms, and it's what you said alluded to earlier runners, it's like let's start finding small wins, things that we know we can and then celebrate them because it changes the emotional profile. And you start stacking incremental small wins and that leads to greatness. So yeah,
- [37:32]
C
let me tell you about the best new product that I've used in the past five years. It's the Matic Vacuum. This thing vacuums, it mops, Matic does everything. Other robots bump into things, but the Matic sees things. It actually avoids the problems. And the Matic automatically adjusts between my carpeted surfaces and my hardwood floors. It's also super easy to schedule. I have it run every night while I'm in bed and every morning I wake up to clean floors. Messes happen and when they do, Matic rolls into action. Go to maticrobots.com today and put Matic to work for you. Ever hit 3pm and feel like your brain just quit?
- [38:15]
B
For a lot of people that's not
- [38:17]
C
caffeine or sleep, it's electrolytes. And water alone won't fix it. That's why I drink Element every day after lunch. Zero sugar, no dodgy ingredients, just a real do dose of sodium, potassium and magnesium. I know you're all thinking electrolytes are for athletes, but you don't have to be an athlete to benefit from it. And it tastes great. Stay sharp in the afternoon and grab a free 8 count sample pack with any purchase@drinkelement.com TKP that's drinklmnt.com TKP
- [38:55]
A
is
- [38:55]
B
there a difference that between types of confidence like we all know the person who's confident from arrogance. And then there's like almost a confidence from humility. There's different types of confidence.
- [39:08]
A
There are different flavors of confidence. So when we talk about the research on the self in modern times, there's three self constructs. There's self esteem, self concept, and self efficacy. Right. In simple terms, self esteem is defined as how do I feel about myself? My self esteem is. My self esteem is high or low. Right. It's just an emotional feeling about oneself. And while it's important to have a healthy self esteem, it's not empirically related to excellence in any way, shape or form. Some of the highest performers don't feel good about their performance, and the best in the world never feel good about it. And then underachievers feel great about themselves. There's overconfidence owner. They feel great about themselves no matter what. So their self esteem. The second variable is self concept. And self concept is how do I view myself? That's identity. When I look in the mirror, what do I see? That's somewhat related to performance. But then there's self efficacy. And self efficacy is essentially operationalized confidence. So here's what's known about confidence. There's two forms of it. Confidence as a personality trait. Some people are born, and if you talk to mom or dad, they're like, yeah, he's been that swashbuckling confidence. He's been that way his whole life. Whatever that thing is, he or she has always had it. So that's confidence as a personality trait. That doesn't necessarily do much in life. You have people who are failures, who have it, people who are successful, and everyone in the middle. The way that modern psychology defines confidence is self efficacy. Now, the beautiful thing about operationalized confidence is we can measure it. We know how the dominoes fall, and we know what creates it. So, for example, this is another question I ask in almost every interview. Tell me something you think you're good at. So any listener who's listening to this, who's trying to be good at something, if I ask you tell me something that you believe yourself to be good at, and they give an answer. And then if I deconstruct it and I say, well, tell me why you believe that. What you come to find, and this is true categorically across the human condition, in every domain, it boils down to four kinds of experiences that that person has had. The number one experience is what's called a mastery experience. It's simply success and failure. Here's how many times I've done this and failed? Here's how many times I've done it and succeeded. But it's not arithmetical. It's the interpretation of success and failure. It's like when Michelle Kwan in the Olympics lost the gold medal to Tara Lipinski. The media said, michelle, you just lost the gold medal. You must feel terrible. She's like, no, no, I didn't lose the gold. I won the silver. Both are objectively true. Michelle Kwan won the silver, but she did lose the gold. But the interpretation of it allowed her to protect her confidence. And guess what? Later that year, she won the world championships. So, right. The number one source of confidence, the first place the brain goes when it asks itself, hey, can I do this thing? It goes to prior experience. But what you have to be mindful of is the pain of failure hurts more than success feels good. So what happens is we tend to index toward our failures, right? We bring the pain of the past failures to the moment. That's why most people are underconfident, right? Because the way the memory and the brain.
- [42:22]
B
Because they're remembering all of the things that they've done wrong, all the mistakes they've made.
- [42:26]
A
100%. Golfers always want to talk to me about their bad shots. Portfolio managers always want to talk to me about the money they've lost and what they didn't do.
- [42:34]
B
And it's like an anchor.
- [42:36]
A
It becomes an anchor. It becomes their ceiling, right? The second source of confidence is verbal persuasions. We call verbal and social persuasions. It's the feedback we get from other people. You allude to that. Why do you think you're good at something? Because people have told me that here and again lies the bias. Criticism hurts more then praise feels good. So if you just combine mastery experiences where failure hurts more than success feels good, verbal persuasions, criticism hurt more than compliments. Over the course of the life cycle, people index toward the pain of their past failures and their criticisms, and they index toward that. And they start living their life in anticipation of indexing toward that. Third experience is called vicarious experiences. How do I compare to other people? We judge our abilities relative to other people. But when we see someone effortlessly do better at something we work at, that lowers our confidence, called vicarious learning. And then the fourth source of confidence in the final, it's called physiological states. It's the butterflies in the stomach. Shane, why do you think you're great at interviewing? Because I can feel it. It's a feeling. But what you come to realize is that the butterflies that you feel when you're interviewing an important person that you feel great about, that gets you excited. Those are the same butterflies that people feel when they choke. Physiologically, it's the interpretation. So in aggregate, confidence is an amalgamation of prior success and failure. What people communicate to us and whether we're good or bad, how we compare ourselves to others, and then how we feel about what we're doing. So if you want to become great at something, you have to understand if you're. So you talked about people who are way overconfident. Here's what. Here's what's known about confidence. If this is your objective skill and ability, measurable, your verbal intelligence, your mathematical intelligence, your skills as a hedge fund manager, a moneymaker, as a podcast interviewer, here's what I do well. I know how to construct questions. I know how to listen. I know how to follow up. I know this. Here's your skills. A little bit of overconfidence is a really good thing. Why? Because that takes those skills and abilities and it elevates them. You see opportunity, you take more risks, you put yourself in more challenging situations. When you're a little bit overconfident, where does it get dangerous?
- [45:02]
B
A lot overconfident, too.
- [45:03]
A
Overconfident, that leads to sloppiness, arrogance, laziness, self delusion, deception. Right. So you have to protect confidence. Now, here's what else happens when we lose our confidence. When our confidence is below our ability, we index toward that. So it doesn't matter how many skills and abilities you have, they're going to find a way to. That belief happens all the time. And what's the primary mechanism of underachievement? People index toward their past failures. They index toward criticism, what other people are going to think about them, because we can. Now, where does this show up? If you look at the data on risk taking in financial professionals, investment professionals, what you'll see is a curve that diminishes over time. It does the opposite of going. We lose our risk appetite as we get older. Why is that? The simple answer is, well, I've already made my money, so I don't want to put it at risk. That's not true. What actually happens is we accumulate. Even though our skills get better, we're better than ever at what we've done. We've also accumulated enough failure that we don't want to feel that way again, so we lose our appetite for risk. This happens across every achievement domain. And so it goes back to the fundamental questions. How do you Live at the tail end of the curve. You have to have a playbook for what you're going to do with mistakes and failure. Because the four sources of confidence, your prior experiences. The brain is going to experience failure more painful than success. Feels good. Well, you have to use and override. Use your agency to flip the script on that. That's why visualization works when it works. That's why self talk works when it works. Number two, verbal persuasions. You have to decide the degree to which you're going to care what other people think about you, because that becomes your prison. If you go through life over indexing and caring too much what people think about you, that's your ceiling. Physiological states. If you never want to feel uncomfortable, that's your ceiling. Vicarious experiences. If you are going to spend your life comparing yourself to others and instead of indexing toward your own full potential, that's your ceiling.
- [47:13]
B
You mentioned self talk. Do positive affirmations work?
- [47:16]
A
They do. They work when they work, so long as they're not delusional. Now why do they work? People misunderstand the dynamic between cognition and language. People think that the words I use are a reflection of what I think, that I have a thought and I use words and that word describes my thought. That's not what actually happens. What actually happens. And it's a developmental thing. It happens early in life. Language and thought are separate, Right. Like they think of an infant. Right. There's all this. They don't even have language yet, but then they start using words. You know, second, third, fourth year of life. And words are just random. But then words start to reflect thoughts. And then what happens is there's a blending where language and cognition become the same thing. That's why certain words are charged with emotion. That's the beauty of a great lyric in music or a great sequence of words. That's why in therapy or even in coaching, you're trying to give people language that's empowering. When we're young, developmentally, the language that others use becomes our own internal dialogue, typically the parents. So how our parents talk to us becomes how we talk to ourselves or our teachers or our coaches. And if that's not functional and healthy and directionally accretive to success, that becomes our self talk. And then we talk to our kids that way. And then all of a sudden comes generational trauma or generational excellence. So self talk absolutely matters because of this interaction between language and cognition. Do affirmations work? Yeah. Where do we see this most prominently? In prayer. So think of it this way. This is incredible. So if you think of all the major religions, they've had several thousand years of trial and error to get it right. So whether you believe in God or not, or believe in religion or not, these are institutions that have had several thousand years to get it right. And what do they all have? They all have prayer as some component of what they do. Why is that? If I sit down to dinner with my children and every night I make them sit around and say something approximating grace, where they simply articulate the words. I, you know, I'm thankful for the food before me. They're practicing the habit of gratitude. And so what happens in religious tradition is if you articulate the words, a profession of faith say these words, Just say them. I don't care if you believe it. The more you say it, invariably the randomness of experience is going to be like, oh, it is true. Then we start to believe the things we say. So self talk absolutely matters, but not immediately. It doesn't work automatically. It's over the course of time. The process of articulating and using words carefully galvanizes the kinds of beliefs that lead to success, failure, happiness, or misery.
- [50:03]
B
Yeah, one of the other things you said that I want to come back to because I think a lot of people live their life in a way that they don't want to be disliked by other people. And it governs what they do. And so it's fear in a way, but they're letting other people dictate their behavior and choices. How do we let go of that?
- [50:22]
A
Well, do you know why that is?
- [50:24]
B
Why?
- [50:24]
A
Why do you think that's. Why do you think most people.
- [50:27]
B
I think there's an evolutionary component to it. So if I have to answer this, I mean, my guess would be that, you know, we grew up in tribes. Being excommunicated from the tribe meant death. We evolved over thousands of years with this in mind. You're not part of the tribe, you're out of the tribe. And if you're out of the tribe, you're dead. And so we have this mechanism that we hold on to that's rooted in our biology.
- [50:50]
A
Absolutely. And evolutionary psych, which is another branch of psychology. He's done really wonderful research in unpackaging this. Right. That belonging part of a community is safety, to be excommunicated as death. Now, what happens is through natural selection, the brain does not evolve. Natural selection doesn't work as fast as changes in society. So I always say this to golfers. Your brain did not evolve for you to be a PGA to golfer, a hedge fund manager. Your brain did not evolve with the intention of you being a professional investor. That's not how natural selection worked. It wasn't directional. So you're trying to do a hard thing with an imperfect instrument, which is the human brain. And this is the one thing that separates humans from every other animal on earth, is we get to engage in abstract thinking. It's called metacognition, the ability to think about your own thinking. No other creature can do that. You get to think about your thinking and then make adjustments. So the beautiful thing about abstract thinking is it gave birth to this idea of forethought. It's, I can actually anticipate if I want to be comfortable in 10 years. I save my money today. We anticipate a potential thing and it governs current behavior. No other creature can do that. That's the good thing, is we get to anticipate and plan. Here's the bad thing. Forethought tends to lead to people over indexing to the future. So essentially what we start asking is what if questions. What if this plane crashes? Oh, my God. We know that people who are anxious live in the future. They create their own anxiety. What if the plane crashes? Portfolios. What if I lose all my money? What if I get fired? Golfers. What if I lose my car? We camp out in the future and we go to worst case scenario. This is one of the weird features about the brain is I had a girl call me. Actually, I'll never forget it. The morning of her wedding. The morning of her wedding. She's a friend of mine in college. She's like, I'm so sorry to bother you. I said, no, no, what's going on? I said, aren't you busy today? And she's like, yeah. She goes, she goes, chill. What if I'm making a mistake? What if he cheats on me? What if he stops loving me? What if. What if all these. And this is one of the tells, ask people what are the what if questions you ask yourself? And what you come to find is people almost always go to worst case scenario. They bring that future state into the present moment. Then they start reacting as if it's real. I can't tell you how many hedge fund portfolio managers go through this. They could have made tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in their life. They start losing a little money. Like, oh my God, what if I get fired? And for some reason, the story is always the same. And so when we talk about the powerful things about the Brain, abstract thinking, forethought, hypotheticals. You have to learn how to leverage that to your advantage, because the natural human default reactions, it's another one of the things that pushes us to the middle part of the distribution and prevents us from overachieving. And so when we talk about evolutionary psychology and survival, the reason that I talk about forethought and abstract thinking is because it emerges at the same window of time, which is adolescence in middle school. So what you see out of adolescence, so we get to think in hypotheticals and abstracts. And for the first time in our lives, this happens every human being everywhere on Earth. It's a universality of the human condition, is we ask the most important question in human existence. Who am I? That question doesn't happen with young people because their identity is largely a part of their family. But we start having these who am I? And that's where this process, Freud identified this process called individuation, which is where we separate from a family identity. And that's where the rebellion occurs, because kids need to answer that question. And then what you also start to see is this need to belong, conformity. You see it all over middle schools and high schools everywhere in the world. I need to be part of this group. I need to wear the right clothes. I need to make the cheerleading team or the football team or whatever. It's that need for belonging. There's two psychological insights that I think are probably the two most important that I've ever come across. And here's one of them. We try on different faces until we find a face of our own. But what drives that for a large middle period of life, middle school, high school, college even, it's called this extended adolescence. Even in the 20s and the 30s, is this idea of, I'm trying to find myself. And this used to be these Go West, Young man and Jack Kerouac, the Open Road. This used to be a healthy process where you go. The process of self discovery was the search, the travel, the moratorium. There's this great line in the movie A River Runs through it where. Where one of the sons comes home from college and goes to his father, who's played by Tom Skerritt. It's like, so, son, you've had four years at college. What do you want to do? He's like, oh, I don't know. It's like. But you've had four years to know. And that's what college is supposed to be. College is. If you think about the university, the etymology of the university is the word Universe. The university was first born to be a repository of everything in the known universe. So it was a place you could come. And there was civics, there's mathematics, there was theater, there was astronomy, there was language. And you can come to a place of learning. And the vehicle of that learning was critical thought in the pursuit of truth. And so this need for belonging is born out of evolution. Natural selection manifests most pronounced in adolescence, in middle school, and then in a healthy identity. You get to this place called an achieved identity, where you've tried on different faces, you've done a search, you've done exploration, you've tried different things, you've taken some risks, and then you finally come to this moment where it's like, I know who I am. I know the real me. That's not the real me. I won't participate in that. This is who I am. And then what happens is you can. Then. You know, what Erik Erickson says is when we talk about finding a partner to love in life, we call psychological intimacy. You have all these people trying to find a partner. What Erickson says is you can't give yourself to someone if you don't have self to give. If you haven't developed a full sense of yourself, what are you giving to the person? So that's what we talk about. Work on yourself. Develop a healthy sense of self. Who am I? Solve for that. And then go forth, you know, to your ultimate destiny. The second most important question, it's something I think about. Usually you have an idea. It's like a song, and you listen to it for a little while and then, yeah, I don't like it. I'm onto a new song. This is a question that has never left me because I see it every day in my work. It shows up all the time. And it's not even a question. It's an observation. A very keen observation by Sigmund Freud. We spend our adult lives undoing the debris of childhood. So just pause there for a minute and think about your life. When you ask somebody, why do you do what they do on a surface level, they're going to give all these answers. It's like, oh, because I love it. Oh. If you actually have deep conversations with them, what you come to realize is the fuel itself, the motivation is rooted in experiences that they had in their youth. Lance Armstrong. What gave Lance Armstrong the fuel to ride his bike while he had cancer? What was he trying to overcome or solve for? Talk to him or read his book? The trauma of his youth. Tiger Woods. Trauma in Youth. They didn't want black kids playing golf. They made fun of them. That's the fuel. Now, one of the things I often have to say, your parents did too good of a job. You're too well adjusted. It right? But that's not the case for most of us. Most of us are trying to solve for things that happened during those formative years. Here's where it gets dangerous. I had a Wall street guy who I was working with. He was at the time, he was late 40s, had made 5, 6, $700 million. But he was miserable. He was married with two kids. He was up at 4am Every day, worked relentlessly. His family was falling apart. Relationships weren't great, Massive insecurity. I'll never forget this through our work together. It was in our second year. He told me the story about a girlfriend he had in high school. He grew up, my client grew up really poor with a brother who was like a drug addict in a very sort of low income, low SES family, dysfunctional parents, drug addict brother. And then there was him in high school. He had a girlfriend. She was the it girl of the town. Her mother, if I remember correctly. The mother drove a white Jaguar. She was on the tennis team, country club. So imagine a scenario where lower SES class gets to date the it girl. That validates you as a person because nothing else in your life is validating you. Then the time comes, it's almost like the archetypal movie the Notebook, and she breaks up with him. And of course he's like, but why? And the answer's a story we've seen in millions. Just like, you know, at the end of the day, like, mom and dad are never going to let this happen. You don't fit. Like, we don't belong together. That broke his heart.
- [60:10]
B
We come from different worlds.
- [60:12]
A
Come from different worlds. You can imagine the kind of pain because that validates what he always thought about himself. Like, I'm a loser. I'm never going to get out of this mess. So what do you do at that point? Essentially, what he told himself is, no one's ever going to hurt me again because I'm too poor. And he went to Wall street and he worked 20 hours a day. And he was relentless. And even people who worked with him was like, that guy's animal relentless. And I start working with him because he knew something was broken. And it was his identity, by the way. So what happened was, going back to Freud's observation, we spend our adult lives undoing the debris of our childhood. He had never solved for that, even after the hundreds of millions of dollars. And we finally traced back that story, it was catharsis. And I remember having to say to him, I said, hey, you don't get a do over. She's never coming back. And oh, by the way, look at your life. And from that day forward, I have a text on my phone he had sent to me a couple years ago. He's like his family was intact, his wife loved him again because he stopped trying to solve for the pain of an 18 year old self. But most people never do the work to do that. Most people never do the work to go into their, their psychological sellers and try to understand the formative experiences that put them on their path. And what happens is if you don't do that, you spend the rest of your life compensating for childhood insecurity. You make yourself miserable, you make everyone else miserable, and you never become the fullest version of yourself. So what I would ask everyone to do at a certain point in their life is to what degree do you spend your life undoing the debris of childhood? As you look at kids, and this is by the way, there's a whole nother level of dysfunction and that's the billionaire class and those kids, which I've also met a lot of them, sort of the trust fund kids, the heirs and heiresses who've never had to earn money. You want to talk about an absolute disaster set up for life, it's because they never learned self reliance. It imposes an identity act so they never actually become themselves. They have this, what's called identity foreclosures. Who you are, you're a thurston. And all of a sudden they have crises later in life when they finally wake up like I never chose this life. So the poverty path or the wealth path lead to the same kind of dysfunction because there's no self discovery in the identity. The best identity path is you do your own work, you try on different faces and then you make a choice to who you want to become. But the convergence of those two observations, number one, we spend our adult lives undoing the debris of childhood. And that debris can come in the form of extreme wealth, it could come in the form of extreme poverty, it could come in the form of trauma, it could come in the form of living in a country club and becoming fragile and everywhere in between. And then the secondary thing is when you finally come to that awakening, in that moment, you have to say, well, who am I? Who do I want to be? That opens everything up and that defines most of humanity, almost it in every domain.
- [63:19]
B
That's a beautiful way to end this. We always end with the same question though, which is, what is success for you?
- [63:26]
A
Success for me is, I think, a little bit different because I was successful pretty young in life. You know, I had a real period of time. I graduated from Emory University, first in my classroom, top of my class. I was a young professor at Rollins College and the youngest professor at the time. I was one of the youngest to ever get tenure. I had a best selling book, I was being celebrated by the sports world, Sports Illustrated, I had two jet skis, I had a house and an apartment materially in the veneers of my life. I had one life, right? And I went to, I had my friends from undergrad from University of Florida, we had all gone to an Irish pub and just catching up with each other in life. One of my friend's girlfriends, who's now his wife, and we're all still really, really close, she's like, you're killing it. I want you. She's like, we're so proud of you. She goes, you must be so happy. And Shane, it was like one of those moments in the movie where you hear the record scratch and I was like, oh my God, I'm not that happy. Yeah, I'm not. I have all of this stuff and I have superlatives. My life doesn't feel the way that people, the way that it looks. And even, even you know, the articles, people writing about me young, you know, you know, all these relationships, flying in jets, it looked great. I wasn't happy. So what I did is I went to the dean at Rollins College and I said, hey, I need to take a sabbatical, which I had earned at the time. And so I went out to Austin, Texas and I got a one one unfurnished. And I really needed to solve for this case. And what came out of that period of moratorium and self exploration, what I did is I went to a bookstore and I started buying books. You know who went through this was actually Michael Crichton, the great author and the great movie creator, Michael Crichton. He wrote a great book called Travels, which he articulated his own life journey. How do you become Michael Crichton? So he went through what I went through. It's like you have all this material success, but you're not happy. So I went to a bookstore in Austin, Texas. I spent, I think at the time it was like four or five hundred dollars on books. But I made it a point to Buy books in everything outside of my area of expertise. I bought books, just anything. And I loaded the apartment up with books. And I got privileges at the University of Texas because I was an academic. Gave me a little office. And I spent four months in Austin, Texas, back when Austin was weird, right? The catchphrase of Austin, Texas in the 90s was keep Austin weird. It's where all the artists and creatives and poets and musicians went to have a little bit of a hippie journey. And I wanted to immerse myself in that culture. I was hanging out with a bunch of comedians. One of my best friends were at the time, they were standup comics. And what came out of that was my self understanding that there are essentially four things that make me happy. Number one is working out. I know I don't look like it, but I work out every day. I just love the process of working out in fitness. Number two is books. Working out doesn't cost money. You know what else doesn't cost money? If you have a library card or books. Yeah. Number three is having really good conversations with smart people. This like, I could do this all day, every day, Right. That makes me happy. And then the fourth one is a little bit indulgent. I love hitting golf balls, but like not playing on it, like it's therapeutic for me. Getting lost just hitting a ball at the repetition, almost like at the end of hitting balls for an hour. It's cathartic and therapeutic and it clears my brain. Those are the books, conversations, working out. And golf balls cost no money. So what I learned is, unfortunately for me, more money doesn't lead to more happiness. A certain level, like I want to be comfortable. And by the way, I love abundance for people who love money. So I want everyone to make as much money as I can. If that's important to you. What's important to me is if I have those four things, if hot water comes out of the shower when I turn it on in the morning. For me, a hotel is. It's a bed, it's four walls. And it's like I don't need more incrementally. More stuff doesn't lead to more happiness for me. So happiness for me is essentially those things. And then I added a fifth. It's raising kids who are resilient, who are not fragile, who want to be global citizens, who are lifelong learners and who the expression are going to have the full expression of their talents in life and do what I hope to do, which is on some level be a light in the world and the darkness, elevate others. And I know it sounds corny and cheesy, but on some level, make the world a little bit better place. Ease other suffering, because you can, and make the world a better place. And that's my definition.
- [68:05]
B
That's beautiful. Thank you.
- [68:06]
A
Thank you. I appreciate the time, man. This is awesome.