The Simplest $7M Business You've Never Heard Of ⏐Ep. #283

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Koerner Office – Business Ideas and Deep Dives with Chris Koerner
Episode: This Couple Makes $7M/Year Sending Letters | Ep. #283
Date: March 17, 2026
Guest: Michael Clark, Co-Founder & CEO of The Flower Letters
Host: Chris Koerner

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Chris Koerner has an in-depth conversation with Michael Clark, who, alongside his wife Hanny, built The Flower Letters—a business that tells stories through beautifully crafted letters sent via snail mail. With a subscription base that has generated $7 million in annual revenue and sent over 3.5 million letters, Michael shares the remarkable growth story, operational challenges, customer insights, and actionable advice for anyone looking to enter the subscription or snail mail business.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin Story & Launch

• How it Started:
  • Hanny, an artist and writer, sold floral paintings on Instagram. Inspired by vintage mail and the impact of receiving a letter, they pivoted to storytelling through the mail.
  • They initially marketed only through Instagram, resisting promoting to friends and family to avoid “false positives” from people who aren't their actual target customer.

    “If you’re launching a product or service, don’t tell your family and friends. They’ll give you a false positive. Your mom’s gonna buy ten of them, but she’s not your customer.” – Michael (05:21)

• First Offerings:
  • $12/month for two letters.
  • Initial acquisition costs were $15–20 per customer, mostly via Facebook and Instagram ads.

2. Business Model & Product Experience

• How The Flower Letters Works:
  • Subscription: Subscribers receive two letters per month over a year, unfolding an ongoing story.
  • Rich Experience: Letters include story content, postcards, bookmarks, stickers, occasionally era-specific advertisements, and more.
  • Most subscribers pay annually up front ($100 prepaid, which is incentivized).
  • Each story is unique, not formulaic: variation in length and content keeps customers engaged and excited.
  • The product is highly giftable, especially around Mother’s Day—which drives their single biggest sales peak.

    “We are a very giftable item. …Mother’s Day is our Super Bowl.” – Michael (11:27, 16:51)

• Audience:
  • Primarily women, 35+, often gifting to mothers and friends.
  • Repeat buyers: Many purchase for themselves and as gifts for others.

3. Growth, Churn, and Financials

• Impressive Early Success:
  • Within 4 months: $36,000/month recurring revenue.
  • End of first year (2020): ~3,000 customers.
• Scale Today:
  • As of 2025: $7M annual revenue; mailing 120,000 letters per month; six storylines concurrently.
• Churn & Lifetime Value:
  • Churn is extremely low (~5% yearly), attributed to the serialization of stories and gift factor.
  • Most customers stick through their entire purchased story arc.
  • Customer LTV is about $180—the strong LTV is driven by repeat gifting and purchasers signing up for new story series.

    “Globally, we’re probably at like a 5% churn—yearly. So, very, very low.” – Michael (15:00)

• Cost Breakdown:
  • Roughly 1/3 revenue to goods and postage, 1/3 to Meta ads, remainder for payroll and reinvestment.
  • Marketing spend has grown: last year, $2.6M spent on Meta ads; cost per acquisition now $40–$50 (early days: $15–$20).

4. Operational Insights

• Hand-Assembled Product:
  • All letters and packages are hand-stuffed in their warehouse, with efficiency improvements dramatically reducing labor needs (from 15 people doing 20,000 letters to 5 people doing 120,000/month).

    “We used to have like 15 people stuffing 20,000 letters. Now we have five doing 120,000 a month.” – Michael (35:33)

• Logistics & Seasonality:
  • Big peaks at Mother’s Day and Christmas.
  • Team size fluctuates with demand (current headcount: 16; scaled up to 25 in peak times).

5. Marketing & Acquisition

• Paid Acquisition & Reliance on Meta:
  • Meta (Facebook/Instagram) ads are primary for growth, though Michael acknowledges the risk in this single-channel reliance.
  • Email is a major driver (up to 50% of revenue at times).

    “If you’re an entrepreneur and you’re not thinking email, think email.” – Michael (08:05)

• Referral & Gifting Loops:
  • Much growth is through gifting and referrals; customers frequently purchase for multiple people.
• Organic Marketing Potential:
  • Discussed the challenge and value of organic marketing—contrasting their paid approach to others who find success with organic (e.g., TikTok).
  • Michael admits more could be done with organic, but it requires a creative commitment from the founders themselves.

6. Product Expansion and Future Vision

• Retail Expansion:
  • Entered physical retail with custom stories for locations like the Newport Mansions gift shop.
  • Building enterprise-friendly redemption systems for potential placement in big box stores (e.g., Costco).
• Media Expansion:
  • Exploring audio (podcast where people from their community share stories) and considering other media, possibly TV adaptations or audio versions of their stories.
• AI Use:
  • Michael uses AI for analytics, idea processing, and business insights—not for creative writing or physical logistics.

7. Business Advice for Entrepreneurs

• Know Your Customer:
  • Understanding your specific audience is critical—don’t generalize ("anyone with a mom" is not a target customer).

    “You have to know your customer. You have to know how to talk to them. That’s why… the more someone can really, truly understand who it is they’re selling to…the better off they’re going to be.” – Michael (41:07)

• Creative–Business Partnership:
  • Balance is key—having a creative lead and a business lead drives success in creative subscription ventures.

    “When you have a creative venture, it’s very difficult. So authors, that’s why authors…struggle because they just want to create…But you gotta sell it.” – Michael (43:46)

• Validating Ideas:
  • Test with a simple “coming soon” site and ads; gather email signups as an early indicator of market interest.
• Iterate for Product–Market Fit:
  • Start with what you love, iterate based on customer feedback, and accept that the market is massive—“you just have to keep finding it.”

    “Markets are huge…You just have to keep trying. You have to keep finding it. Iterating.” – Michael (46:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [05:21] Michael: “If you’re launching a product or service, don’t tell your family and friends. They’ll give you a false positive.”
• [08:05] Michael: “If you’re an entrepreneur and you’re not thinking email, think email.”
• [11:27, 16:51] Michael: “We are a very giftable item…Mother’s Day is our Super Bowl.”
• [15:00] Michael: “Globally, we’re probably at like a 5% churn—yearly. So, very, very low.”
• [35:33] Michael: “We used to have like 15 people stuffing 20,000 letters. Now we have five doing 120,000 a month.”
• [41:07] Michael: “You have to know your customer. You have to know how to talk to them. That’s why… early on, the more someone can really, truly understand who it is they’re selling to…the better off they’re going to be.”
• [43:46] Michael: “When you have a creative venture, it’s very difficult. So authors, that’s why authors…struggle because they just want to create…But you gotta sell it.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00]–[01:19]: Business introduction, revenue milestones, product basics
• [02:28]–[05:16]: The original Instagram business and first steps in “snail mail” storytelling
• [06:28]–[07:43]: Early growth strategies—acquisition, Facebook ads, and the importance of email
• [10:05]–[11:26]: Subscription model nuances, story serialization, importance of low churn
• [16:49]–[17:04]: Core customer demographic and gifting behavior
• [21:14]–[22:05]: Transitioning to full-time focus, current revenue figures and seasonality
• [24:23]–[26:51]: Retail expansion, collaborations, and extended media possibilities
• [35:02]–[35:35]: Operations, scaling hand assembly, and team structure
• [36:07]–[37:08]: AI uses in business but not for creative or physical side
• [41:07]–[45:26]: Know your customer, business/creative partnership, product validation advice

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Actionable Nuggets for Aspiring Subscription Entrepreneurs

• Test demand with small-scale offers—don’t overbuild before validating.
• Invest in email as a primary channel; ownership beats reliance on any ad platform.
• Make annual/prepaid subscription options attractive in order to boost cash flow and minimize churn.
• Keep gifted subscriptions top-of-mind when marketing—think about how your product gets shared.
• Consider the power of partnership—especially in creative businesses—by dividing creative and operational roles.
• Understand and cater to your core demographic rather than generalizing.
• Iterate and listen closely to customer feedback—variation and surprise can be strengths.
• Start with your own interests and build for people like yourself to find your first customers.

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Final Thoughts

Chris and Michael’s conversation is packed with pragmatic, actionable advice for subscription founders, especially those in unique, “low-tech” niches like snail mail. The Flower Letters’ success is rooted in focusing on customer experience, product variation, and deep operational efficiency combined with relentless reinvestment. Michael's story offers proof that seemingly “old-fashioned” businesses can thrive—and even scale—using modern growth tactics, disciplined customer understanding, and a relentless attention to experience.

Where to Find Them:

• theflowerletters.com
• The Flower Letters on social media (links via website)

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Compiled by The Koerner Office Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

[A]

You were making like 36,000amonth recurring within your first four months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

And it was just us, so that was great. We're sending about 120,000 letters a month now. I didn't expect this in 2024. We broke the 5 million mark. Last year, we broke 7. The best way to describe it is something you've never heard of, but your mother's going to love.

[A]

Is Mother's Day huge for you?

[B]

It's our Super Bowl. Yeah.

[A]

That's awesome. What other niches do you think could be really interesting with the snail mill business? Would you believe that you can make millions of dollars per year sending stories through the mail? Well, that's exactly what Michael and his wife Hanny do with the flower letters. They charge 12 bucks a month, and they are sending 120,000 letters per month. Last year, they made $7 million in revenue. But what's most impressive is that within four months of starting the business with almost no money, they were making $36,000 a month, and most of that was profit. They grow the business through Facebook ads and referrals. And I am just obsessed with the snail mail subscription business. This is the second episode I've posted about it in the last two months. We'll link to the one I did with Hannah below. And at the end of this episode, Michael will give us advice for starting our own subscription business. What niches look interesting, how we can be successful, and most importantly, how to find customers. Let's dive in. You want to start by just telling us who you are and what you do.

[B]

Yeah. Michael Clark. I'm the co founder and CEO of a company called the Flower Letters. The best way to describe it is something you've never heard of, but your mother's gonna love. So we tell stories through letters sent through the mail. You get two letters a month for a year, and it tells a story. My wife is an artist and an author and just so creative. She sings, she does everything. She's doing stained glass, generative. I call her her creator. And it was about February, March of 2020. Anyway, we were just talking. We were on a walk, and she was trying to figure out how to kind of. She. She made these paintings. She incredible. These 3D floral paintings. And she put one up for sale, and it'd sell within, you know, 20 minutes. I remember one night we. We were going on a date, and she put one up, and it was like three hours past. She's like, hey, this hasn't sold yet. Do you think it's not good. I'm like, got to put this into context for you. You sell your paintings in three hours. Like, yeah, most people have paintings up for days, months, years. People are. They want your stuff, and then sure enough, in 30 minutes, I'm buy it.

[A]

And what was she selling these for? And on what platform was she selling them?

[B]

Oh, this is Instagram. She just, okay, make a panty, put it on Instagram. Say, hey, if you want it, let me know. Someone would say, I want it. And, you know, depending on. She make anywhere from this size to. To big. I mean, the big ones could be upwards of thousand dollars, but there's mostly small ones. So a couple hundred dollars each each way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so she was doing that just. And, you know, really enjoying it. And then she was trying to figure out how to grow her business and kind of get more people involved in an email list. And. And she had the idea. She's like, what if I, like, sent them a letter? If they sign up for my email list, like, oh, that's kind of a expensive thing to sign up for. Email list. They send them an email. She's like, what if I send him a letter? She's like, there's all these old letters you can find, to be honest with you, all at once. The idea came to me, and I saw people, like, I remember getting mail, a letter in the mail. I saw people going to the mailbox, getting a letter, and it being a chapter in a story. And I said, hey, what if you wrote. If you wrote a story and sent it to him? And she's like, that's a terrible idea. Christie's a writer. And so there's a lot of details we had to work out. But I was like. I was like. Immediately I thought of World War II. I was like, what if. What if you write a letter? Then I write a letter, and we kind of send that out, and we've kind of figured that out, and we just iterated, went back and forth. There was another subscription that we were doing called Letters from Afar. We actually did podcast with them. They're. They're awesome. We got their letters, and there's a sort of a standalone letter each month, which is like, okay, great model. Like, do the stand.

[A]

And you. You were a customer of this, you're

[B]

saying, yeah, at the time, we subscribe to it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so we had been getting letters. I was like, that was a story, like. And so, you know, Letters from Afar is a big part of our origin. We talked to them, and they're. They're A great, great company. I highly recommend them. They're. I think they're more geared towards kids, but they follow this character around the world. It's really fun. Their models, it's. It's much simpler than telling a story, figuring out, okay, what does this look like? How many letters do we send every month? It was like, it's going to be a year and it's going to be 24 letters, and we're going to send two a month. To be honest, when we looked at it, I was like, hey, this will be kind of fun. This will be cool. This will be, you know, let's. Let's give it a shot. I'm still working on my startup. I was doing some consulting, and we originally started C Roulette. I. Actually, in our first story, I. There's a letter that I wrote, but it became clear, like, I'm not a great writer. She is. She's a great writer. So, like, okay. She's like, you know what? I'm gonna take this. I'm gonna write this. She's like, I'm gonna write this. I was like, oh, sounds good. We started doing Instagram posts and just

[A]

figuring things out just to her own friends and family. Not like from a big business page or anything.

[B]

No, we just. We started a flower letters in Instagram, put it out. And one of my things as an entrepreneur is I. When I tell people, I say, if you're launching a product or service, don't tell your family and friends. They'll give you a false positive. Your mom's not. Your mom's gonna buy 10 of them, but she's not your customer. You gotta find your customer. We just put it out there. 33 people signed up.

[A]

I was like, okay, and what was your first pricing?

[B]

$12 a month for two letters.

[A]

Two letters and one month for 12 bucks a month.

[B]

12 bucks a month. And then.

[A]

And your cost is, I mean, a dollar stamp, envelope, paper, and then time

[B]

the paper, everything just to get everything in. At the volume we were doing, it was more around 2 to $3. Because we put a lot of things. We put a lot inside.

[A]

Nice stationary and stickers and nice and okay.

[B]

And we've done that. And that's sort of what sets us apart. You get a lot, and I can show you some things if you want. But yeah, costs were relatively low. It goes really well. We started dabbling in ads. So our. Our main sort of acquisition was through Facebook ads. And that's what really started to kind of get us traction.

[A]

Facebook ads on both Facebook and Instagram?

[B]

Yep. Yeah, Facebook. And, and it was us just like giving it a try. We knew nothing about Facebook ads. And then this guy that I was working with, this kid really, I was talking to him about what I do and he's like, hey, I want to try that. I was like, okay, try the flower

[A]

letters business or ads.

[B]

He wants to try doing ads and marketing with us. Okay, okay.

[A]

That's fun.

[B]

I was like, let's, let's go for it. And anyway, he like, I remember by the end of the year, anyway, by the end of the year we had a few thousand people that had signed up. And then he pitched me on coming and working for me full time. I was like, oh, okay, okay.

[A]

He started running your ads pretty early on.

[B]

Yeah, probably around October. So we launched in like August. We started, we sent our first letters in at the end of August. And then. Yeah, okay. Toberu started dabbling in ads, just spending a few bucks here and there and people start showing up. And then one of the things that was really important that I'm surprised how many businesses don't invest in is email. We knew from the get go that email was really important because meta can break. You know, what if it goes away? You know, it goes down. You got your email address. So early on we started trying to acquire email addresses and so we can connect with people that way.

[A]

How did you do that? Was that with ads as well?

[B]

Yeah, ads would kind of come. People will come to our website. That's the first sort of on site funnel is you asked for the email address for a discount. Pretty standard e commerce acquisition. That's actually turned out to be huge for us. Upwards of 38 and sometimes, you know, 40 even. Sometimes 50% of our revenue is email driven.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Anyway, if you're an entrepreneur and you're not thinking email, think email.

[A]

You have to, yeah. Own your audience.

[B]

You got to know it. Since then we've, we've, we're at 3.5 million letters mailed. We're sending about 120,000 letters a month now we've got six stories concurrently, more coming. Yeah. So six stories, but nine subscriptions. You sign up. One of them is a fantasy. And so there's seven parts of it. There's three parts currently. So eight, say eight. There's eight options that you have right now. Most of it is historical fiction and we're called the flower letters. And so that was part of the formula is at the beginning it was all of our heroines have a flower name. Originally we were going to do Historical fiction, which is the predominant storyline for us. But then we have Nora Avin, who's a fantasy and actually super popular, and it's been tons of fun. It's one of my favorites. But that Nora Avin's been part of our marriage, like, she's been writing that since she. And building that world since we were first married. And so. But yeah, it's been wild. Just wild ride.

[A]

So first year, you said you finished at two or 3,000 customers. Was that the end of 2020 or your first full 12 months?

[B]

Just the end of 2020. Within five months. Four months. Yeah. So end of year, we had about 3,000 customers.

[A]

You were making like 36,000amonth recurring within your first four months.

[B]

Yeah. And it was just us. That was great.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It was simple.

[A]

What was your cost per acquisition on your ads in those early days? Like, how much were you spending to acquire a customer?

[B]

Early days, how? If we could go back pre. I bet it was like 20 bucks. 15, maybe. 20 bucks.

[A]

Okay. Crazy.

[B]

Even on a subscription, we could be profitable within three months. Right. And that's one of the biggest challenges with a subscription subscription like this, which I think probably people that are getting into it are learning. The key to our growth has been

[A]

the prepaid option, like a year upfront. Yeah.

[B]

Paying upfront. It's been interesting in this, what we do. It's kind of like, oh, this is. They're sort of. They are buying a full story, and it is a subscription, but like, it's really not traditional subscriptions. Like, you typically. It's like, all right, I'm going to pay 12 bucks and you send me a supplement. Okay. Or, you know, or some of these other letters. It's like, I'm going to, you know, give $8, $9, and you're going to send me one letter. And it's stands alone with us. It's like, for this to work, you have to get every letter, and you have to get every letter in order. And so think about that. I mean, that's what makes it complicated. And across now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The stories, we're like, okay.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

All right. You know, I think when I step back and look at it, that has been our key to our growth and success, is adding more stories, being able to kind of service a customer as they are in any story. They would, like, get them their letter, you know, soon.

[A]

Now, I have to think with churn, with losing customers, I'm assuming on the story ones, your churn is low because they want to know what happens at the End. Right. So this is a business built. It's a business built for very low churn. But I imagine if you do get churn, it's going to be after the first couple weeks or month because maybe the story just doesn't resonate. And then after that, if you keep them after that, you probably keep them for all 12 months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that pretty accurate?

[B]

One of the things that makes our churn so low as well is that we're a very giftable item.

[A]

Oh, yeah. They can't cancel for themselves. Yeah, right. Like someone gives it to them sometimes.

[B]

It's funny. We have the best customers. They're incredible. But like, I never thought of this happening. It's like someone who reached out is like, yeah, my mom says she hated it. I need to cancel. I was like, whoa. Your mom? And I was like, okay, that's fine. So she, you know, so they'll start getting it. Like, I don't like it. So that'll happen from time to time. And that's great. To me, the mail's a miracle. I love the postal service because of, like, how well it is. Sometimes I get a bad rap. It's like, ah, the postal. They lost my letter. It's like, you talk to a kid this. Now you tell them, like, hey, you put this piece of paper in this box, it'll show up in Russia in a few weeks. They're like, whoa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, right?

[B]

They can understand. Sometimes their mind works. Like, I can send a text and get it to Russia right now how does that piece of paper get to Russia or to even the next date over One of the things. So what sort of prompted me to leave everything? Like, I was a fintech guy. Software. Let's build a tech company. You know what I mean? But what sort of drove me into leaving all of that behind and focusing solely on this one was the opportunity, I think, the growth. It was the impact. We started getting letters, like, very early on year one from people saying that they, you know, how grateful they were for us because we're doing this because it's something to look forward to. I won't say her name, but I remember her name. She would keep it on her bedstand because she had this just. I think it was fibromyalgia. She's just in pain all the time. It's like, I look at that letter and I know another one's coming. And it just keeps me going. Like, I'm reading these things. I'm like, I didn't expect this. I did not.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And we get these every week. We still get them of people having a very, very positive impact. And so I stepped back, looked at what we were doing, and said, okay, if we can truly run a business together, my wife and I, we love each other and we really like working together, which I'm finding is unique. She does the art, I do the business. We step back and say, okay, how can we have a maximum impact in this business and grow it so that we can bring this light and joy to people's lives? And so I left everything behind and we focused solely on this. And we. We configured the best way to describe it, because there's, you know, there's a lifestyle business, then there's. You set up, and it's like, this is, you know, I've got 10 different things going on, or there's like the generational thing. And we decided this was going to be a generational thing for us. We want our grain to work here with us. That caused us to configure a little differently and reinvest pretty much everything back in the growth, back into the. The learning, the marketing, the customer acquisition early on. I mean, it's been fantastic. So much fun, but so hard. Oh, man. You know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I was going to say I had a shipping business, and we shipped hundreds of thousands of packages. And anytime I hear someone say, like, X, Y or Z got lost in the mail, I'm just like, no, it didn't. Like, statistically speaking, no, it did not. Because we. Almost nothing that we sent didn't arrive. Like, it always arrived.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it is miraculous how that works. So your churn is excellent. What is your churn on a percentage basis, and how has that changed over time, if at all, or across different genres or stories?

[B]

Last I looked, globally, we're probably at like a 5% churn.

[A]

Monthly or yearly?

[B]

Yearly. So very, very low.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

We predominantly do sell our prepaid option. People are way much less likely to churn in the prepaid. We make it very attractive to come into the prepaid.

[A]

What is the price for that compared to 12amonth?

[B]

12amonth. So right now you can do the prepaid for $100.

[A]

It's like eight and a half bucks a month.

[B]

Yeah. So that was our entry point. So. And then you can add, you know, a tin to it. The tin has been just so well received. People love it. They're pretty. You can maybe see one right back here.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Would you mind holding one of those up? They get that, like, with the first. So they can store everything in it.

[B]

Yeah, they store the letters in it.

[A]

Brilliant.

[B]

So looking across, we were relatively inexpensive comparatively to other subscriptions. But that's because we want to make it accessible for people. Because of the impact. We want to have as many impact as we possibly can. But we have other products that help, you know, from a profitability standpoint. Like the tin. Different things we had, like, why haven't we added a letter opener? It's like, man, that's like a no brainer. It just takes time to figure that out.

[A]

You could put it in the tin. Put it in the tin when you ship it.

[B]

I mean, there's so much stuff we can put in the tin. Like letter opener, postcards, stickers, like different things they can add to their order they want.

[A]

So it's, it's 10 bucks. Do they have to pay for additional shipping for the tin as well?

[B]

So the tin, we sell the tin for 30.

[A]

Oh, you said 10, not 10.

[B]

Yeah. So then it'll be, you know, $8 shipping, $9 shipping. Right now we're doing free shipping, spring promotions going into Mother's Day, so. And then standard shipping. If you do the letters, we started targeting more shipping.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because we start to track when we can at the volume that we, you know, when we get into kind of busy seasons, we'll do free shipping just to remove any, any barriers to entry. So.

[A]

Yeah. Is Mother's Day huge for you?

[B]

It's our Super Bowl. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's bigger than Christmas.

[A]

Wow. Is it more, you know, sons and daughters for their moms or husbands for their wives?

[B]

It's daughters for the mothers.

[A]

Interesting. More than anything.

[B]

More than anything. And friends for friends. Our demographic is as prom is female, 35 plus and probably skewing a little bit older. So starts at 35, then kind of gets into like the 45. 55 is kind of the peak. And it's, ah, I love this market so much. One, I think they're underserved when you interacting with them. They're, they're the best customers I've ever worked with. Like across all of them. They're reasonable, they're forgiving. They're, you know, and they, they, they, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, that's okay. And if they're upset, you call them and they're like, oh, you know, that's okay. You know, we'll figure it out. And our mantra is, hey, we're always going to do everything we can to make it right and to do right by you because what we promise something that is pretty. It's a pretty tall order to fulfill, you know, something to look forward to as a story that continues and, you know, comes in order. When that doesn't go well, it's kind of like we didn't. We didn't get. We didn't make it happen. So we got to do whatever we can to make that right. Especially when it's a gift.

[A]

How long are the letters? How many words? And cumulatively, how many words is the whole series? And have you ever thought of making that just into a physical book?

[B]

Physical book we have, but at the same time, no, because you want to

[A]

keep it special to the letters. Right. Or else they're just like, oh, I'm paying 100 bucks for a book.

[B]

I'll tell you, one of the things that we didn't do early on is make each letter formulaic. You know, I think if you're.

[A]

I see what you mean.

[B]

If you're a. You know, if you're thinking of starting this, you're like, okay, every letter is going to be two pages with a postcard and maybe one little insert. And that happens every single time. That's great. It's very predictable. And that's a good model if it works. One of the things that I think has helped us, that makes us people like us, is it's different. Like, one letter, you're going to get eight things and you're going to have a four page letter. And then the next one, you're going to have a two page letter and a postcard and like a sticker to the point where there was one where we had to do something because people kept reaching out. I was like, did I get everything? Yeah, yeah. It's just that one we sent you before. There's tons of stuff and I can.

[A]

Yeah, I'd love to see it. How many words are each letter on average?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Okay. It's not something you track.

[B]

Well, that's another thing with Hani is. And we have. We try to work into it, is writing a story in this way is an art form. It's that she's perfected because there's so much that you can do, you know, with different content. Another is just a random letter from Lily Clara, but I'll kind of give you an idea of what comes in this one. So this is the letter. And so when she's creating this, she's like curating the experience, if that makes sense. And she's like, okay, in this letter, this. In this envelope, there's gonna be a letter. And this is three pages, so the front and back. And then on this one, then there's this. This is like an advertisement card. It's from the era.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[B]

This isn't part of the story. It's just like, let's send them this so they can be drawn into.

[A]

Yeah. And that's a real ad from that era.

[B]

Real ad. Yeah.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

American machine company Ice cream freezers. Pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's one that we were sending that ended up being that we didn't really notice it, but it was offensive, so we pulled it.

[A]

Okay. Oops.

[B]

And then there's this one she designed. This is a bookmark.

[A]

Wow. And she's designing all of these.

[B]

All of it? Yeah. This is. And there's, like, some silver, like, metallic stuff on it. This is a character from the story, actually. Then there's a telegram. So this is the telegram part of the story. So, like. And it's like, you look at it like a telegram can fill in a lot of gaps. Right. And then there's postcards. So I read there's 12 postcards in every story that you get.

[A]

Okay. And so we send these one per month.

[B]

Yeah, about one. One a month.

[A]

Ish.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How long did it take you to quit your job?

[B]

Oh.

[A]

For your startup?

[B]

Oh, man, that was hard because I was like, man, I loved it so much. We were. We started right during the pandemic. In fact, he's a business partner from then. He's killing it now with AI and it's still going. It took me about a month to kind of truly, really decide, and it was January of 2021 where I went to him. I was like, I got to. I got to go do this. I got to, you know, do this. And he was supportive and great. I haven't looked back, haven't done anything else. This takes all my time.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's awesome.

[A]

Today it's been six years going on six years. Yeah, almost six years. And what is your monthly revenue and profit today?

[B]

Monthly revenue varies month to month across it. It's about. In 2024, we broke the 5 million mark and total revenue.

[A]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

And then last year, we. I was like, man, maybe we could go to 10. And it's like, well, hold on, Clark. That's double. That's hard. That's hard. Last year, we just. We broke seven.

[A]

That's still.

[B]

And so this year, hey, what about 10? And it's like, hold on, Clark. That's a lot.

[A]

Yeah. After Mother's Day you'll be like 12 for sure. Oh, and then come October you're like 10 would be nice.

[B]

We'll see. We'll see. I, you know, I have this, I have a girl. The next, I mean the next goal is a 10 million mark just because that's sort of a, a benchmark. But if we can match what we did last year, I'd be thrilled because we were able to service, you know, so many new customers and that's been, been a lot of fun. So our month, that's one of the biggest challenges of this business is the seasonality. So you have these big peaks in Mother's Day and you have to figure out, okay, we've got to make sure we've got enough operations to go to the next one and continue to invest.

[A]

And so did you know you can build a six figure business with only a 10,000 person email list? I just talked to the founder of Beehive and he told me that there are people with 10 to 15,000 subscribers making more than newsletters that are 10 times that size. Here's how. Well, this one design newsletter with around 15,000 subs doesn't just sell ads. They run two week online cohorts four times a year that generate six figures. And on top of that they're charging companies 20 to $30,000 to get in front of their audience. And that's on one small focus list. This is not about going viral anymore. It's about owning a niche and monetizing it correctly. And Beehive gives you exactly the tools to do just that. Like surveys to understand exactly who your readers are or a built in recommendation network to grow automatically. Paid subscriptions, digital products, sponsorship tools, and you keep 100% of the revenue. You don't need a massive audience to run a successful business. You need the right system. So move your email list over today and try out beehive with 30% off for 30 days with code CHRIS30. Because this might be the simplest, highest leverage business that you can build right now. Just go to beehive.com Chris to learn more of that. That's B E-E-H-I-I-V.com Chris.

[B]

That's been a lot of learning for us, especially because we're, we didn't configure this to be lifestyle driven for us. So we haven't extracted cash from the business. We tried to invest all of it. So we try to keep our net profit as low as we possibly can from a tax perspective and keep the Business growing, keep it fueled and try to. With the intention of expanding our net. Yeah, we're hitting a critical mass, I think, where we're really poised to really start to expand into different categories, like retail. Retail is a real opportunity, I think, for what we do. We figured out a really neat product where we worked. I don't know if you've ever been back to the Newport mansions in Rhode Island. They approached us last year. One of their. The person that runs their gift shop signed up, reached out, was like, what if we. If you wrote a story about the Gilded Age and we could put it in our shops? We were like, yeah, that's totally cool. So we're in their shops. That's. It's pretty awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, then we're like, what if we could get this? What if you could walk into Costco and you see the flower letters on a. On a stand and, you know, it's a gift, a giftable thing. It's like a gift. Almost like a gift card come in and.

[A]

Yeah, like, you just bring it to the register. Yeah.

[B]

So we built out a whole redemption website and.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And you know where you can come in, you scan a QR code pulls up, you enter your address and you're good to go. And so that's been built out and configured. And we'd love to get into retail stores, but also expanding into different mediums. Audio, We've always explored, what if we could have the opportunity to turn this into, like, a TV series?

[A]

Yeah, why not? Why not a podcast where your wife just reads the letters?

[B]

Oh, we thought about that. We have a podcast. We're sort of dabbling in it. It's called Stories Told through you. People from our community come on and tell their stories. Like, come to find out, people have, like, people are fascinating. That's the one thing I've learned about this community from them. I had this experience where I was in the doctor's office and, you know, this lady had a little. A post it note right on her desk. And I was, you know, paying for my doctor visit. And her post it note, it was like taped down, you know, so one of those post it notes, like, she's like, I'm going to look at this every day, says your story matters. And that, like, that hit me. I was like, why would you think your story didn't matter? And so anyway, we invite people from our community to come on our podcast. We've heard some fascinating stories. Just incredible.

[A]

Yeah. And everyone has them.

[B]

I don't care who you are, your story is fascinating because you're human. You felt fear, you felt love, you felt betrayal. I mean, all of these things that make up a great story are part of your life. It's been fun to extract that and have people come and tell their stories. So. But yeah, that's a great idea. Like an audio version where she reads the stories. Man, there's so many different things.

[A]

So if you were like taking profits out of the business, what would you hope to do in net profit on 7 million in revenue?

[B]

If we did invest back into as much as we did in Meta, you know, I would love at some point to be able to have a net profit, a million dollars.

[A]

Yeah. Your growth would slow.

[B]

Yeah, it would, it would slow. We wouldn't be able to get, you know, as much as many customers. But there is a point, there is a tipping point where I think we, we start to hit a more organic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Growth. A lot of people referred this to their friends. With more people coming into this medium and, and doing, telling stories through letters, there's a lot of people that have started to do it in the last, last little while. It's becoming, I think, a viable, I think, way to experience a story. And I think with that, you know, we've never really invested in organic growth until it's all been paid. But as soon as we're able to crack organic and not have to spend so much within Meta, that's when net profits will start to really build and grow.

[A]

How much are you spending on Meta today?

[B]

Oh, so last year we spent 2.6

[A]

million and your cost per acquisition went from 15 to 20 in the early days to what?

[B]

Oh, yeah, man, if we could 15 to 20, we'd be swimming in it. Yeah, but it's, I mean, everywhere. Every E Commerce brand has. I mean, you can't do it. You can't do that. That's virtually impossible. Some do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, just, you know, because they're, they're really good at it. But ours is 40 to 50 at this point.

[A]

Did you hear my episode with Hannah, the snail mail business?

[B]

I heard part of it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

She's been, she's all organic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You should go look at her TikTok page and like the style of video that she posts because there's a lot, there's a lot to learn there. She's doing it really interestingly.

[B]

Yeah. I'm learning that organic, what you do is an art. I don't know, because you go, you're. I don't imagine you spend a lot on ads for what you do. But you have a huge audience, depends on the thing you've been able to kind of get out and make it happen. But every time I see, it's like figuring out the organic would become a full time thing because when I look at it, it's like, well, what, what organic. There could be some organic approach because we're a product. Right. We're not a lot of the organic success or brands that are organic. The people are the product in a lot of ways. Where people are buying them when they buy their product because they like their content, they enjoy their, you know what they are and they, they, they've attached themselves so closely to the brand that when you buy their product, you're, you're essentially buying, buying them. And so that would be essentially me and Hanny really investing in that organic approach which we thought a lot about. Like she's writing stories like that. That's what she does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. There's lots of things we could do to try to figure that out. But the more I, I look into the organic and see the people who are successful in it, I'm like, wow, they've really kind of. Because it's not just, you know, I really appreciate what they do because it's not just a willy nilly. It's like formulaic.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You figure it out. You know exactly. You know your hook, you know everything and it's, that's what, what I do.

[A]

But it starts willy nilly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you learn from there.

[B]

You figure it out. You're like, hey, wow, they like that. Okay, I'll do that.

[A]

Yeah, let's do more of that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So roughly, I'm just estimating here, you're spending like a third of your revenue on like cost of goods sold, postage and paper and supplies. You're spending another third is on meta ads, straight to meta and then the rest of it is going to pay your people. Operations, invest in growth operation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a reinvestment cycle which has been fun. Right. But it's kind of a. Because you can see opportunities, different ways you can grow and it's. No, nothing's ever different. Like every year's you know, exciting, something else is happening, new stories are coming out. Like a lot of it goes into investing in new stories, to be honest, researching the stories, things like that. But yeah, that's kind of, that's where we're at.

[A]

So your yearly churn is 5%, you know, $100 per year per customer. How long? I mean, it's still early. You're five and a half years in. How long are customers saying, what's your like year over year churn or like lifetime value? I guess. What's the lifetime value of a 12 month?

[B]

Lifetime value right now is about $180

[A]

from across 12 months. Really?

[B]

12 months? Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Why not closer to 100 if they're paying two stories, 12 bucks a month. Okay.

[B]

They sign up for one story so you'll have a customer. And this is not uncommon. They see our ad like, oh, wow, I'm gonna gift this to my mom and to my sister so that I too. And then, you know, later on they're like, you know what? I'd like to do this. And they buy for themselves. So now that person has spent, you know, upwards of 300, depending on what, how many to do a tin or whatever. But we have a lot of repeat purchasers. I saw one, some, someone bought like 10 for their friends and I was like, man, that's crazy.

[A]

How do we get more of those? Yeah, because you still spent 40 or 50 bucks to find that customer too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But it's also, we have a really strong core of people that when we release a new story, they're excited.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sign up for it. Because they love what we do and they know, they kind of know what to expect from us from a story perspective. We're not trying to be edgy. We're not trying to like scare you or not trying to like throw. Throw anything in this controversial. The stories are all designed to be just full of light, happy endings. You know, we're not apologetic about that. We're not trying to throw any curveballs at you. But our customers appreciate that and really like that.

[A]

And so if they're spending 180 per year, do you know how many are coming back for a second year?

[B]

It depends. A lot of it bleeds into the other because it'll be, she'll, they'll buy two, then six months later they'll buy another one and then, you know, a year later they'll buy another one. So we'll have win back campaigns where people maybe haven't, you know, been paying attention, know we have another story, so we'll do email campaigns to try to win them back. I think we've built a really good core of loyal customers. Now. It, it's sort of hard because it just doesn't renew. Right. It's not like after your story's done, you don't just roll into another one and Pay guest.

[A]

We don't.

[B]

We. You sign up individually for each story. That makes it a little bit more challenging for us to really get subscription data. We also don't process our annual subscriptions through a subscription software. We kind of do that on our own. And we use the software month to month. And so we don't get as much. We kind of get the. The software is good because it gives you more like a subscription. We treat them a little bit differently because they're sort of buying that story, that experience.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they don't have to pay 1% to the subscription for their. The prepaid.

[A]

If Mother's Day is 10 out of 10 busy, what is Christmas, Thanksgiving? How does that compare on a scale of 1 to 10?

[B]

Oh, they all. They all feel 10 out of 10. Christmas can actually be a little bit more hectic because just from a personnel standpoint, that's when people want to go be with their families, want to. And so we would have people staffed is a little bit more challenging. But Mother's Day usually, you know, goes really well. Yeah. I think from a business standpoint, Mother's Day is 10 out of 10, say nine out of 10 for Christmas.

[A]

And what does your team look like? How many people do you have? And logistically, are you in like a warehouse? Do you have automation equipment for stuffing all these, or are people doing that by hand?

[B]

It's all by hand. So the way that. And we have a warehouse just over in Orem, Utah, right now, our head counts 16. We've had as many as 25. But we built in like, our operations manager is incredible. He's fantastic. To give you an example of how efficient he's gotten us, we used to have like 15 people stuffing 20,000 letters. Now we have five doing 120,000amonth.

[A]

Holy cow, that's incredible.

[B]

But yeah, it's very high touch. So people are handling. Each and every piece that you get has come through the hands of our. Our team.

[A]

It's funny, I talk to a lot of business owners and nine out of 10 times it's like, how are you using AI? How is AI going to transform your business? How are you going to make more money with AI and with this business? I'm just thinking about it and it's like, you don't need AI?

[B]

No, I use it every day.

[A]

That's a fe. Well, I guess you don't want AI to write your letters.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right?

[B]

No.

[A]

You're not going to get AI to stuff your envelopes anytime soon. You could use it in your meta Ads. But, but how are you using AI?

[B]

So AI has been. I'm fascinated. I love it. I think it's just this incredible opportunity. I mean, if I were, if I were going to start a business, it would be an AI business. There's tons of them you could start. But I use it every day to process thought. I'll, you know, do analysis on a string of emails I've received, pull in data from our Facebook ads and have it run an analysis on our efficiency, put in our financials. Right. Plug in our financial tab into an analysis and give us some insight into, you know, how we're, how we're operating. But yeah, you're right. We wouldn't use it to write the letters. I think there's some that are probably using AI to write letters, things that they're doing, and generate images. And I think time will tell how well received AI generated entertainment is. I do know that the entertainment industry is. I mean, they're already using it, they're already leveraging it from a writing standpoint. But yeah, for me, it's more of a business intelligence running at bouncing ideas.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I generated a webpage. It took five minutes and it was pretty good.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't think I told you this, but my wife is in the middle of starting a snail mail business for cooking.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah. It's called snailmailsupperclub.com.

[B]

nice.

[A]

And got a couple selfish questions for you. Sure. And she's starting it. Cause she read a book called Bread and Wine and she was inspired to start like a cookbook club with her friends where they, every month they meet, they all bring their own meal, you know, appetizers, entrees, desserts around a central theme. Like this month was Greece or Mexico or St. Patrick's Day, you know, a country or a day or a theme. And they all kind of have a group chat and they just bond over it and they share their food and they dress up all nice. And she has absolutely loved it. So she heard my episode with Hannah and she's like, I could just turn that business into a snail mail business where I could write the recipes out and we could get some artwork done. And it's great for referral marketing because like, we're encouraging groups. Like, so one person signs up, the chance that they send it to their seven friends is much higher. They don't have to, they could do it themselves, but then they'd each get a unique recipe. So there's kind of some logistical challenges there. But she's launching for Mother's Day. And I'm curious, like, what. What other niches do you think this is that could be really interesting with the snail mill business that you're really not interested in tackling, but you see opportunity in.

[B]

Oh, the recipe is interesting. There's a friend of mine, started a company called Peachy Recipe. You can essentially upload your own recipes and they'll print out a cookbook for like a family cookbook. Pretty, pretty, pretty neat.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[B]

But yeah, the recipes ones, that's really, that's unique and fun. I think when there's, there's a lot of this, any sort of like the pen pal one is interesting. We have people that. I think there's other pen pal businesses that do it. I'm just trying to think anything that's like a standalone, like once a month thing is way simpler than getting into the story business. The story business, it's a much different animal to tackle because when you have to write a story that's difficult, recipes and things like that would be interesting. Someone was like, hey, you should do Santa letters. And I was like, huh, that's in our brand. But some. I know there's a couple people that do Santa letters around Christmas and they do.

[A]

Well, what about true crime? Like there's a business called the Hunt a Killer and they do like true crime boxes. Right. Where you solve a. That's like $150 million a year business. That's huge, right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And so why not take that and put it in a, like a letter form and just a true crime story or like a puzzle, something to decode, you know?

[B]

Think there's one that does it. I think I saw one that. That is doing that.

[A]

Good. They proved the model. Now we can go copy them.

[B]

What it comes down to, honestly, that the reason those companies were so successful, one, they. They knew, they knew their market and they marketed the heck out of it.

[A]

It's all meta ads.

[B]

Yeah. I think you can only go organic in your business so far.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Especially when something's sort of a niche where it's not a mass market appeal. You're going to need to advertise, market and brand and develop e commerce skills. You know, CRO, like CRO. I didn't even know what that was.

[A]

Conversion for the listener. Conversion rate optimization.

[B]

Conversion rate optimization.

[A]

Like getting 3% of people to buy to 3.2% of people to buy. That. That could be a lot of money.

[B]

3.15.

[A]

Yeah, there you go.

[B]

And it's like, it's the craziest stuff hey, let's make this button green.

[A]

Yeah. Let's move it from the left to the right side of the page.

[B]

Who cares? Like, why would you care about that? It's like, well, when you have a hundred thousand people come to your website in a five day period, that could be significant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The fact that a button's green and people are more likely to click on it, it's wild. It's kind of crazy.

[A]

Or if you learn like Samsung users in Turkey, for some reason like this, the checkout button doesn't load correctly. So there's so many one off things and in aggregate, it can really make a big difference.

[B]

It's huge. Yeah. If you're an entrepreneur, you're a business owner, you probably see people you know coming up in your feed telling you you're doing it wrong. Let me show you how to do this, let me show you how to do that. You have to know your business. You have to know your, like if you don't know your customer, none, or your business or your product, none of it's going to work. You got to know who, who your customer is. You got to know how to talk to them. That's why early on, the more someone can really truly understand who it is they're selling to and who it is is their customer, the better off they're going to be. Because people ask us, well, who's your customer? It's like, well, anybody with a mom? It's like, no, that doesn't work. Well, it's a great Mother's Day gift. Well, everyone has a mom, so just market to everybody. It's like, well, no, there's a specific demographic, a specific type of person that this will resonate with marketing for us. Marketing to men has been, it hasn't worked. It just doesn't work because we don't get it. Men see this and within, in a 30 second, it's very difficult to get. Yeah, I hope I don't sound sexist,

[A]

but no, no, not at all.

[B]

They don't think about it.

[A]

You have to hook them in your ad. You have to hook them ironically. Like if I'm, I mean, most of the people that watch this will be men and by the time they get to the end of it, they're watching it for business reasons. But they're probably like, you know, I'm gonna get that from my mom because they're sold. But if they were to see a video, the same type of video, you would not hook in in the first five seconds.

[B]

Oh, you know, it's been super fun to figure out all that stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it can drive you nuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It can drive you wild.

[A]

There is an 80, 20 to all of it. You have to, at some point you have to stop moving pixels. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, my last question for you, I want to be respectful of your time, is if someone's watching this and they're entrepreneurial and they want to start some sort of a snail mail subscription business, what is some advice that you could give them that could help them save themselves a world of pain or hurt or all that?

[B]

Know your customer, know and, but also know what you're signing up for. If you're doing a story, it's much harder than doing a standalone month to month because the story is, is, you know, you have to get it right. It has to come in order.

[A]

You have to tie it all together.

[B]

Yeah. Well, first you have to write a story. Right. One of the reasons why it works so well with my wife and I is she's the creator. Right. And I think most people, and I think it's not with Hannah, my wife's name's Hannah as well. But with, with the person you have on your podcast works well with us is she can really focus on the creative and I can really focus on the business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you have a creative venture, it's very difficult. So authors, that's why authors and writers and creators, Creatives often struggle is because they just want to create, they want to write, they want to do this, they want to do their art. Right. Which they should do. But you got to sell it. And so you got to figure out, okay, now how do we marry these things together and, you know, really get a customer base and make a viable business out of this thing that I'm creating. Yeah. I think that would be know your customer, figure out the business side. And if you can have a partner, whether it's a spouse or a friend that can handle one side of the business and the creative because it's a, it's a creative endeavor. Right. Probably with your wife, if you run, maybe the helper run the business side and she does the creative side of hers, it'd be a match. Great match. Because you can see, you know, you're tracking customer lifetime value, your acquisition cost, you know, all the different business and she can focus on because that honestly enabling the creative is because that's your, that's your product. I mean, that's the math.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's squelched in any way, shape or form. It's not going to be as yeah. As good. But I'd say that I don't think that's just for snail mo. I think that's for any business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have creative minds and really business minds that can really help understand the ins and outs of business. But also, I mean, the more you think about any business, like the creative. I think sometimes we undervalue creativity in the creative minds in business.

[A]

I think if people have a hard time finding or knowing their customer, because I agree that's paramount advice. Know who your customer is. If you don't really know how to figure that out, just start with a customer of one. You. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my wife and I had a conversation about this snail mail business is she wanted to take videos of her making all the recipes and then put a QR code in there so people could watch how to make it. And I was like, okay, great idea. But like, that's a very big lift. That's a lot more of a lift than what you're currently planning on. And I asked her, would you like, do you watch videos of people cooking when you make meals for us? And she's like, no. I'm like, well, like, build it out for you. Like, if you're not likely to do that, then people aren't likely to do it either. And so if it's not a big lift, then try it. But if it is, then maybe just give it a month or two before you try it.

[B]

That's really actually insightful because on our. When Hani was creating our first story, which is Audrey Rose, she wrote it for her. And she wrote it, it's like, I'm going to write this for me and I'm going to curate this so that it's something that I love. Turns out, wow, there's lots of different people.

[A]

Yeah. And now they feel loyal to her because they're like her. We like people that are like ourselves. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's good business.

[B]

I think people need to remember the markets are huge. Like, I think sometimes it's hard to fathom. Like just think about 100,000 people. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people. Times that by 10, that's a million. That's a lot of people. Times that by. That's a lot of people with a lot of different preferences. And because you haven't sold anything doesn't mean the market's not there. You just have to keep trying. You have to keep finding it. Iterating. And it could be try weird things. I don't know. But like there's there's markets for just about everything out there. I think a lot of people get discouraged. Cause they're like, all right, got it. Launching it. And nobody buys. Like, all right, didn't work.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I also have a, A, A, a theory that I tried. Cause the business is all transactional. It's, to me, it's whether it's a transaction of, you know, coming into a store. I think that's a transaction. I came into the store for some reason. I transacted by walking through the threshold into the store. I transacted by picking something up and feeling it. And then ultimately the final transaction is a financial transaction where they purchase your goods or your services. Number one leading indicators of a successful financial transaction is someone giving you their email address. Because, like, they want to get what you're sending. There's a way. The secret that. And if I were to start another business, I would do this. I would develop a product, a concept idea, and I would build a website. I would put up a form. Coming soon. Here's my product. Here's what I'm doing. Here's my service. Give me your email address. Stay up to date. And if I can just run some ads, just little things here and there. And I can find a pretty good mass of people that are willing to transact with me through their email address, I'll say, okay, I think I got something going here. I think there's, there's gonna be something here that's a really easy way to, like, test a market. Sounds easy. Like, oh, I gotta build a website. It's like, well, that's easier now. One problem ever, you know. But anyway, one problem. That's something that people could try, you know, before they really invest anything.

[A]

That's excellent advice, Michael. Thank you for your time. This has been incredible. Obviously, we can find [e-mail]. is there anywhere else that we can find you?

[B]

Social media? The Flower Letters. But yeah, our website's the best. You'll find links to all of our social media there. And, you know, obviously you can sign up for our email list as well and hear from us there.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you, man. I really appreciate it. Great to meet you.

[A]

Likewise. All right, what'd you think? Please share it with a friend and we'll see you next time on the Kerner Office.