The Kristan Hawkins Show
Episode 45: Conversation With Jojo About Abolitionist Lies
Date: January 10, 2026
Featuring: Kristan Hawkins (Host), Jojo Ruba (Christian Apologist, Guest)
Episode Overview
In this candid, nearly two-hour episode, Kristan Hawkins addresses recent attacks from the abolitionist group Abolitionist Rising, who released a selectively edited video of a contentious Q&A at Oklahoma Central University. Hawkins brings in Jojo Ruba, a seasoned Canadian pro-life apologist, to critically examine abolitionist arguments, discuss the theology and strategy behind incremental versus "all-or-nothing" approaches, and equip pro-life activists to handle similar confrontations. The conversation is both tactical and heartfelt, peppered with humor, biblical references, and unfiltered emotion as they unravel the complex internal debates of the modern pro-life movement.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Responding to Abolitionist Rising & Context Setting
00:06–11:45
- Hawkins explains her motivation: defending mainstream pro-lifers, not seeking publicity from “fringe” attacks (“I’m not doing my hair for them. I’m doing this really for our pro-life student leaders…” — 00:06).
- Describes the “setup” at Oklahoma event: abolitionists not following no-filming rules, intent on “gotcha” moments for social media.
- Acknowledges her own limitations as an apologist: “I do not feel like I am the most eloquent pro-life apologist...” (00:32).
- The emotional cost of pro-life advocacy: “It’s extremely personal...to be told and to be lied about” (07:40).
- Sets premise: The real danger is not public disagreement but slander, strategic attacks, and division.
2. Introducing Jojo Ruba & Canadian Perspective
11:45–19:08
- Jojo shares Canadian history: the “all-or-nothing” abolitionist mindset led to total loss of legal protection for the preborn (no law since 1988) (12:02).
- Critiques theological misapplication by abolitionists: Old Testament legal mandates for a Jewish theocracy can’t be mechanically applied to secular democracies.
- “We need pro-lifers with plenty of passion but no wisdom. We also meet pro-lifers with a lot of wisdom but no passion. We need both.” — Jojo (13:16)
- Recounts the failed incremental approach in Canada—where uncompromising tactics resulted in complete defeat and zero abortion restrictions.
3. Incrementalism vs. Abolition: History & Strategy
19:08–27:50
- In-depth Canadian case study: How inflexible moralism (“all or nothing”) sank a late-term abortion ban and paralyzed the abortion debate for generations.
- Explains necessity of incremental law-making: “The moral law never changes, but the law of strategy, how we implement that moral law will change as we go from society to society...” — Jojo (21:19).
- Biblical analogies: Esther and Daniel as incrementalists, acting wisely within godless states.
4. Political Realities: Pro-Life Activism in the GOP Era
27:50–33:01
- Hawkins and Jojo reflect on the U.S. political moment, Trump, and dangers of dogmatic, anti-political rhetoric alienating pro-life activists.
- Charlie Kirk’s advice (clip from 28:43):
- “We have to be incrementalists when it comes to politics sometimes…If we don’t fight for life, then what good is politics?” — Charlie Kirk (29:23)
- Urges activists to stay engaged in electoral, not just spiritual, battles.
- Hawkins: “You don’t have the luxury to be above politics; laws are being made whether we want to be there or not…” (31:33).
- Jojo: A warning—if incrementalists are sidelined, U.S. could repeat Canada’s fate.
5. Scriptural & Legal Debates
38:38–54:58
- Abolitionists invoke Leviticus, Deuteronomy regarding child sacrifice and capital punishment.
- Hawkins & Jojo counter: OT law targeted to theocratic Israel—if applied literally, would mean stoning women for abortion today (46:11).
- “If you’re going to go by Leviticus, you’re talking about capital punishment by stoning. By stoning, by the way.” — Hawkins (47:38).
- Highlights deep misapplication of theological categories (moral/civic/ceremonial law).
- Jojo: The 1 Peter 2:1 call against malice & slander—abolitionist rhetoric about Hawkins is “not only wrong, it’s unbiblical.”
6. Slander, Motives & Movement Infighting
54:58–61:18
- Hawkins reads abolitionist claims she “hates the law of God,” calls it “hurtful” and “extremely dangerous,” especially as it stokes extremism (53:12).
- Jojo: “They’re wasting their time and energy fighting us, screaming at us when they should be fighting abortion. This is spiritual abuse of what the Bible teaches.” (58:46)
- Both stress: This infighting distracts from— and may impede—saving lives.
7. Effectiveness & Ethics of Incremental Pro-life Laws
64:14–75:18
- Abolitionists claim incremental laws save no lives; Hawkins cites data: 22,000 lives saved post-Dobbs per JAMA (68:42).
- Jojo provides Canadian data: legal abortion = 100,000+ abortions annually; laws do change outcomes.
- Abolitionists reject all pro-life statistics, leading to “tribalism”—parallels arguing with pro-choice deniers on fetal development.
8. The “All Or Nothing” Fallacy
75:18–79:43
- Abolitionists ask: “How much life is okay to lose?” Hawkins’ and Jojo’s answer: “No life is okay to lose—but we must save who we can, when we can” (75:35).
- Strategic analogies: WWII military decisions, medical triage—saving some is not the same as choosing to lose the rest.
9. Gender, Leadership, and Internal Movement Critiques
97:52–99:38
- Abolitionist protester asks why Students for Life excludes groups supporting harsh punishments for post-abortive women or the death penalty.
- Hawkins stands firm: "I'm against the death penalty. ...I don't need anything else (to say to someone who wants to stone post-abortive women)." (94:28)
- Discussion turns to abolitionist misogyny and attempts to discredit Hawkins’ leadership as a woman—Jojo rebuts with Proverbs 31, noting biblical and practical legitimacy of women in leadership (98:13).
10. Approaching Students and the Public: Practical Apologetics
106:06–116:02
- Male student seeks advice: How to reach women on abortion when debate often triggers trauma or defensiveness.
- Hawkins: Assume post-abortive pain, focus on sowing seeds, and accept that “changing your mind on abortion means you might have to change the way you’re living your life” (111:21).
- Jojo: Effective advocacy means engagement, patience, and loving the sinner while hating the sin.
11. Theological Deep Dives: Abortion, Miscarriage, and Legal Precedent
154:07–158:54
- Hawkins and Jojo parse Exodus 21 (fines vs. capital punishment for miscarriage), find that in all readings it humanizes the preborn, but show that neither OT nor NT supports abolitionist’s rigid interpretations as public policy.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “I regret nothing of what I said...there was a couple times I was like, when I prayed to the Holy Spirit, he came through that night.” — Kristan Hawkins (10:50)
- “We need pro-lifers who have plenty of passion but no wisdom...we need both if we want to stop the killing of preborn children.” — Jojo Ruba (13:16)
- “If we are not going to fight for life, then what good is politics?” — Charlie Kirk (29:25)
- “If you’re going to go by Leviticus, you’re talking about capital punishment by stoning. By stoning, by the way.” — Hawkins (47:38)
- “Not ever is not the same as not yet.” — Jojo Ruba, tactical retort to abolitionist accusation (124:31)
- “The culture determines where we start. It doesn’t determine what we say.” — Jojo Ruba (150:10)
- “[Paul:] I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” — 1 Corinthians 9:22 (read at 152:01)
- “Do not be intimidated by these abolitionists. They're taking Bible verses out of context to justify a political strategy that has failed Canadians for 38 years and will fail you.” — Jojo Ruba (152:51)
Important Segment Timestamps
- [00:06–11:45]: Hawkins explains why she’s responding and her hopes for the episode
- [12:02–19:08]: Jojo recounts the fatal impact of all-or-nothing tactics in Canada
- [27:49–31:18]: Charlie Kirk on political incrementalism and generational strategy
- [38:38–42:45]: Discussion of abolitionists filming without permission and legal misrepresentations
- [46:11–54:58]: OT law, stoning, and capital punishment in modern abortion debate
- [58:46–61:18]: Infighting and its spiritual/moral toll on activism
- [68:42–70:59]: Citing JAMA and other pro-abortion studies for lives saved through laws
- [75:35–79:43]: Triage and WWII analogies—on the ethics of saving who you can
- [94:28–99:38]: Confrontation with “shouty lady”/ abolitionist about death penalty for women
- [106:06–116:02]: Real-life apologetics: talking to traumatized women and winning hearts
- [124:31]: “Not ever is not the same as not yet.”—debating abolitionist “purity tests”
- [150:10–152:51]: Summing up, culture’s role in policy, and scriptural precedent for incremental strategy
- [154:07–158:54]: Exodus 21, miscarriage, and textual ambiguity in pro-life/abolition debate
Tone & Style
- Conversational but passionate, sometimes combative toward abolitionist leaders but compassionate toward confused students.
- Openly rooted in Christian worldview and biblical exegesis, with frequent scripture citations.
- Frequent humor, self-deprecation, and personal storytelling to balance theological and political analysis.
- Direct and honest, especially on the emotional and spiritual “cost” of pro-life advocacy.
Final Notes
This episode stands as both a rebuttal to the abolitionist movement’s internecine attacks and a primer for pro-life students navigating fierce ideological crossfire—from within and without. Hawkins and Ruba argue passionately for a biblically faithful, politically astute, and compassionate approach to ending abortion, warning against slander, legalistic purity spirals, and the spiritual dilution that comes with infighting.
For further resources, the full speech and complete Q&A can be found in the show notes.
Summary by The Kristan Hawkins Show Podcast Summarizer — [January 2026 Edition]