Let's Talk About the VALUE of Life! | Ep. 48

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Kristan Hawkins Show
Episode: Let’s Talk About the VALUE of Life! | Ep. 48
Date: January 30, 2026
Host: Kristan Hawkins
Guests: Father Charles Trullols (Director, Catholic Information Center), Sean Kenney (VP Development, Students for Life)

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Overview

This episode centers on articulating and defending the inherent value of human life—particularly embryonic life—in a culture where, according to the host and guests, an increasing number of young people lack the grounding beliefs that underpin pro-life arguments. Drawing from a panel discussion at the National Pro Life Summit, Kristan Hawkins, Father Charles Trullols, and Sean Kenney discuss why understanding and conveying the value of life is foundational to abolishing abortion. The conversation interweaves faith, philosophy, history, and practical outreach, aiming to equip pro-life activists to reach a skeptical and secular younger generation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why ‘Value of Life’ Is the Central Issue

• Kristan Hawkins frames the problem as not merely one of ignorance about fetal development or the violence of abortion, but a lack of understanding about why any human life—and specifically one’s own—matters.
  • “The biggest challenge we face isn’t proving the violence of abortion… It’s that people just don’t care. And why do people just not care? It all comes back down to a fundamental, I guess, non-belief in the value of humanity.” (02:07)
  • She notes Pew polls showing fewer than 50% of young Americans identify as Christian, suggesting a gap in foundational worldview.

2. Historical & Philosophical Roots of Human Value

• Father Charles Trullols details how Christianity uniquely established the concept of intrinsic human value, contrasting with pre-Christian Greco-Roman societies where people were seen as disposable based on utility.
  • “Christianity brought a revolution in saying that human life has dignity of itself given by God…that we have been created.” (21:25)
  • He reminds listeners that societal change is gradual: “It took Christianity 300 years to change the Roman Empire.” (09:02; 48:59)
• Sean Kenney explores individualism and societal trends:
  • The idea that “we are ends unto ourselves” has led to cultural movements like DINKs (dual income, no kids), where fulfillment is sought apart from transcendence or sacrifice (06:00).
  • He links philosophies of use vs. love to abortion and euthanasia debates: “The opposite of love... is use. Because use is inward, use comes to you. Love is outward.” (46:57)

3. Challenges on College Campuses

• Both Hawkins and guests describe campus discourse as increasingly polarized, with less genuine dialogue:
  • “Too often, I think we don’t have discourse. It’s ultimately like two monologues going past one another rather than dialogue.” (Sean Kenney, 16:47)
• Hawkins notes a chilling student reaction to violence (“This is war!”) as reflecting the real stakes and emotional temperature (10:47).
• Getting at root issues sometimes means making students pause with simple affirmations:
  • “I am glad you were born.” (19:51)

4. Navigating Faith and Reason in the Conversation

• The panelists discuss how to make the case for human value to secular students:
  • Use reason, science, and intrinsic self-worth arguments, not only religious authority:
    • “If someone doesn’t accept Jesus Christ…you use what God has given you with your intelligence and your ability to argue… don’t forget that truth convinces by itself.” (Father Trullols, 56:49)
• Historical context: Past theologians like Aquinas worked with limited science but still affirmed the sanctity of nascent human life as a “gift from God” (29:00).

5. Practical Approaches for Pro-Life Advocates

• Planting Seeds:
  • View every conversation as an opportunity to plant, water, or harvest a “seed”—don’t measure success by immediate conversion. (37:30)
  • Hawkins: “You never…get to plant seeds when you’re on campus, and sometimes those seeds…are going to fall on rocky soil and sometimes on fertile.” (37:30)
• Empathy & Encounter:
  • Model Christ’s compassion and approach dialogues with patience and love.
  • “The person has to understand that I’m coming from a position of love for the other person.” (Father Trullols, 34:00)
  • Don’t argue to win—argue to understand and help the other person expand their view (36:28).
• Role of Prayer:
  • Prayer and grace are seen as vital for opening minds, especially as trauma and past abortions may cloud receptivity. (42:46)
  • “Let’s not forget…grace comes in as well, part of the package…so we have to pray for people.” (Father Trullols, 42:46)

6. Movement Strategy & Unity

• Staying Focused: Keep abortion as the central issue of the movement to maximize effectiveness (45:03).
• Optimism and Perseverance:
  • Progress is slow, setbacks are normal, but advocates should be “joyful and optimistic.”
  • “When they see us joyful and optimistic…we are all united…in being always understanding that we are all going in the same direction.” (Father Trullols, 49:12)

7. Most Memorable & Notable Quotes

• “You cannot have the right of personal autonomy unless you have the basic human right to exist.”
  – Sean Kenney (18:20)
• “It only took Christianity 300 years to change the Roman Empire.”
  – (Repeated by Kristan Hawkins & Father Charles, 09:00; 48:59)
• “The opposite of love is not hate, it’s use.”
  – Sean Kenney (46:57)
• “God doesn’t ask you to succeed. He’s not asking you to win, but he does ask us to try.”
  – Sean Kenney (42:21)
• “Don’t be afraid of starting a conversation…even if the person were to antagonize you…you have planted a seed there.”
  – Father Trullols (54:16)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Panel Introduction and Why the Topic Matters (09:53–15:00)
• Changing Attitudes on Campuses (16:27–18:20)
• Historical Impact of Christianity on Human Value (20:12–25:24)
• How Science and Faith Interplay in the Debate (27:32–32:43)
• Tactics for Engaging with Secular Students (32:59–36:28)
• Practical Guidance for Pro-Life Activists (37:30–42:46)
• Movement Strategy, Optimism, and Unity (45:03–49:49)
• Final Advice and Q&A Role Play (51:08–57:45)

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Final Takeaways

• Focusing on Human Dignity: All arguments against abortion must return to the foundational claim: every human being, including embryonic humans, has an intrinsic value bestowed not merely by belief, but by virtue of being human.
• Approach with Humility and Persistence: There are no “silver bullet” arguments, but calm, compassionate, reasoned engagement—grounded in both faith and reason—can change hearts and minds over time.
• Unity and Hope: Pro-life advocates are reminded to be unified, joyful, and persistent, knowing that incremental change is historically normal and optimism is both strategic and contagious.

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For those engaging in the pro-life cause—particularly in increasingly secular environments—this episode provides both a robust rationale for the value of life and concrete strategies for advocacy, emphasizing that changing minds is a process that begins with connection, understanding, and hope.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, Pro Life Jen. Welcome to this special episode of the Kristin Hawkins Show.

[B]

As you know, I've been kind of busy. We had our National Pro Life March and the National Pro Life Summit in Washington D.C. last week. The National Pro Life Summit was amazing. Completely sold out. Filled to the brim with the Pro Life generation, those who are ready to go back to their campuses and abolish abortion. I'm so deeply proud of every single person who showed up. And especially because there was threat of like the Snowmageddon and. And it still was sold out. And we only had a few speakers cancel, which was amazing, by the way. One of the first speakers canceled with a man who always talks about how men should be manly, like, what the heck, the little snow.

[A]

And the good news is God held.

[B]

Off the snow because the snow didn't start until like 2am so everyone was able to get home except for the staff at Students for Life who did get stuck in the hotel because they were the ones left picking up and boxing everything. So a special shout out to my entire Students for Life team. I got on a plane with my two boys because I had to get to Seattle for some cystic fibrosis care. So I'm finally home, they're finally home, and I'm getting ready to leave again. But I wanted to film this, this podcast for you and put this together because we at the summit, as you know, if you tuned into the live stream, which you can watch the entire summit live stream from the main stage at Students Life, YouTube, we had a very special panel called the Value of Life why the Embryonic Human Must Matter. And to be honest with you, this is one of the perks of running your summit is that sometimes I get to pick the topics. This was a panel that I wanted to put together mainly for myself because as you know, when we're on campuses talking about abortion, I believe, and I've come even more to believe this in the past few years, especially since the COVID pandemic. The biggest challenge we face isn't proving the violence of abortion or showing people the child in the womb. It's that people just don't care. And why do people just not care? It all comes back down to a fundamental, I guess, non belief in the value of humanity where we are talking to what has now been recorded as the least church generation of Americans. In fact, the Pew poll that came out this summer said that for the first time in their history of measuring, fewer than 50% of the youth generation actually identify as Christian. So we have an entire Generation of people who don't know why they were made, who made them, and when you don't, and you can't answer those questions, it's really hard to say why your life has value, let alone an inconvenient, temporarily inconvenient for nine months child in the womb has value. And so I believe with my whole heart that one of the things we must do in order to abolish abortion, trust me, there are a lot of things like a lot of people are like talking about social media right now, like how it's so easy to abolish abortion. You just do this one thing. We get an abortion. Yeah. No, that's not possible. But one of the things that we must do in order to win this culture to abolish abortion is we have to ensure we, we have a generation who knows why they were made, that their lives have value. Meaning, because you're not going to have any hope of convincing her to choose someone else and to sacrifice of her body, of her time, her convenience for nine months to give someone else potentially 90 years if she doesn't know she has value. Therefore, she can't determine whether or not the child within her has value. So that's why we did this special panel. We had Father Charles Troulis. He is the director of the Catholic Information center in Washington D.C. which is like an Opus Dei, Catholic Catholic center if you're Catholic, you know, but Opus A if you're not Catholic, it's like super traditional Catholic. He's also an advisor to OST, which is a Catholic boys school in the Washington D.C. area.

[A]

And we were supposed to have a.

[B]

Professor, Professor Chris Tofferson from University of South Carolina. Professor Torson is well known. He's a philosopher, way smarter than me in this. He is one that canceled. I'm not bit or anything, but we had Sean Kenny, our vice development students who have take his place because Sean is getting his PhD at Catholic University America and has studied Professor Toffelson for a lot of his classes. So he had to come and represent Professor Tofferson's view. And I think he did a pretty good job. So you have to give Sean props on that because literally I told him at midnight that he was going to be on the stage with me. But couple of the takeaways that you're going to hear because I'm going to ask in this panel, you'll see me asking both Father and Sean, you know, are they seeing this too? Am I crazy or is this a problem that people don't know that they have value. Let alone an embryonic human has value. And then how do we challenge it from a faith perspective, from a philosophical perspective, how do we start the conversation with people about their value? Now I will tell you I was disappointed. I'm looking through my notes because I was taking notes on stage. You'll see me like writing down there.

[A]

Is no silver bullet.

[B]

No one gave me the answer to solve the problem on campuses quickly when we're having conversations. Unfortunately, I think that. So the good news is I'm not wrong and haven't been saying stupid things on campuses.

[A]

The bad news is I didn't hear.

[B]

Anything that was revolutionary. And to change kind of our conversations at students for life or how we're instructing you to have conversations. So there's good and bad news in that. There's no silver bullets bad news. The good news is what we're telling you to say and how you're helping to have conversations is correct. So take it how you want. But a couple things that I took away from this and I'm looking at my notes is one of the things that Sean said early on, you'll hear him, he says, we are not into ourselves. There is a higher good. And that has fundamentally broken down into in our society. And we've seen this now with like the whole dinks. I thought it was like a sexual thing about gay men, but it's not. It's like dual income, no kids. A lot of elder millennials are doing this of like, look at all this money we have. We don't have kids because what the view is we are end to ourselves. So the amount of vacations, the amount of, you know, the status, the cars, the nicer houses we can have, not having kids, that's our end. Which we all know on your deathbed isn't going to mean anything. I do think that is an important line. I also thought, I think father talks about this, Charles and his talking about the defense of the Christian world, that if you think about our world pre Christianity, people's value was not seen or was not recognized. You know, you had the Greeks right openly talking about and documenting cases of infanticide, that humans were these disposable things. I mean, this is why as pro lifers were against communism and socialism, everyone's like, no, it's so good. Socialism's great. It gives everybody equal stuff. No, communism treats the, the individual as a means to an end. That we are just like cogs in the system. And your value is only based on how much you can contribute to the State. So that's why you're seeing in the UK and in Canada that have socialized health care systems now rushing to euthanize people because at the end of the day, they have a health care shortage. They can't afford to pay for all the health care that they're giving out. There's huge lines for things and people have reached the end of their, their, their limit, right? The end of their value. So we just had this horrific story the other day in Canada where this woman was euthanized against her will. So I murdered because they said that her husband had like, exhaustion and burnout from caring for her. And they certainly don't want to be paying for her because they have a health care shortage and they can't cover health care procedures for people who are healthy and young and still contributing to societal good. This is why socialized health care sucks. It's not because pro lifers or conservatives say we don't want people to have high quality health care because, like, we're pro life or pro people. What we're saying is when you look at socialism and communism, it always treats us as cogs in the big wheel, right? And the big machinery. And that when our call gets jammed up or, you know, it's. It's been grinded to a halt, we're no longer valuable to the system, and that's what leads to, to euthanasia. So I think it was interesting. Professor. Professor, I'm sorry. Father Trullos talked about in the defense of the Christian world, people's value was not seen before Christianity. And that was like this big revelation that Christianity brought to the whole world. And one of the big revelations or things I guess I wrote down while this was happening was Father Charles reminded us it only took Christianity, it only. It took Christianity 300 years to change the Roman Empire. Took Christianity 300 years to change the Roman Empire. And I know why we get frustrated that we haven't ended abortion right away and that there's so much still to do. And that's 100% true. And all your frustration is 100% valid. Trust me, I feel it every single day. It took Christianity 300 years to transform and end the Roman Empire. So we have more work to do. But I hope you enjoy this conversation and I really pray it's instructive, informative for you in conversations when you're first trying to have that introductory conversation to a friend or a peer about why human life matters, starting with why their life matters.

[A]

Hello, everyone. We're gonna get our panel started on the value of life, which we're not assuming. You don't know the value of life because you're here, but maybe you want to learn how to communicate it better because we see this all the time on campuses. My name is Kristen Hawkins. In case you don't know, I am nicer than I appear on Facebook and Instagram. I feel like, I don't know, maybe I'm meaner in person. Depends on the video you've watched. You don't have to be afraid to meet me. It's okay. I'm taking pictures later. But we are very excited for this panel and I'm actually going to be using this. You don't know this, but you're going to be part of the Kristen Hawkins show because we're going to be using this panel for our podcast, Surprise. Because this is for me, on campuses having conversations. The quintessential question. When my friend Charlie Kirk was shot at the university at the Utah Valley University on September 10, I was at the University of Montana. And did you all see the film of what happened when I told the students that my friend had been shot? These were students who had been debating me about the value of life, who then began cheering and shouting and shouting, this is war. And I think that horrific moment that will never leave me for the rest of my life was instructive to the problem we face on campuses as pro life activists. Because the question is when a generation who, sad to say, Gen Z is the least church generation in American history. For the first time ever in polling, Pew poll says that young people under 50% identify as Christians in America. When a generation is raised not to believe in a God who spoke the universe into existence, who can't answer questions that are very simple, why were you made? Who were you made by? That seeps into everything. And that is the question, I would say, and the challenge on campuses. So I have assembled an all star panel and they're going to answer my questions because I want to know how I can do a better job on college campuses to explain to students who come up to me already mad at me because they've seen me on Instagram or they read a banner. How can we have a conversation with this generation, your peers, quicker, more effectively, to get at the root cause of why they tolerate abortion, why they shout for abortion, why they refuse to stand with us. So I'm going to introduce my all star panel. I first have Mr. Sean Kenney. He is the vice president of development, Students for Life, the former executive director of the Republican Party of Virginia, I can't even believe you still have that in your bio. My friend needs to go away because what is Virginia doing? But okay, you weren't involved in any of that, so it's not his fault. He was a former executive director of American Life League and he currently served as senior and just recently finished up his job as senior advisor to the Republican pro life Virginia Attorney General Jason Meyer, who is no longer the Attorney General, who is replaced by a guy who thinks it's funny to joke about shooting their political opponents speaking about the value of life. So I expect you to talk about that. Sean is a graduate at the University of Virginia, which, you know, Dave Matthews is from there. So we're good. Is presently a graduate student in philosophy at Catholic University of America and a proud husband and proud dad of seven children, one of whom is a Students for Life leader.

[C]

That's correct.

[A]

There you go. Father Charles Troulos is very famous. I found out he is a super famous speaker because once the speaker drop hit, I was getting texts about you. Father Charles. He is the director of the Catholic Information Center, a corporation of the archdiocese of Washington, D.C. he assumed the role in March 2017. Originally from Barcelona, Spain, he graduated from the Barcelona School of Architecture, then earned a bachelor's degree in theology and a doctoral degree in canon law from the Pontifical University of Holy Cross in Rome. Father Trouilllos was ordained a priest in Rome for the Prelature of Opus Dei in 2006. Following his ordination, he was assigned. You get some big fans here. He was assigned to work in granada, Spain. In 2008, he moved to the United States and lived in Pittsburgh, South Bend, Chicago. Pittsburgh was the winner of that list where he served the pastoral needs of the prelature. Besides his current role at the cic, he's also assistant chaplain, Oak Crest School in Virginia and spiritual director of the Leon Forum, promoting Catholic social teaching among future leaders in D.C. d.C. And other major cities. Father Charles has led the opening prayer for the U.S. house of Representatives and speaks four languages fluently. This all means he is way smarter than me, which is why I had to meet with my two boys backstage and answer all their Catholic questions. So thank you, Father Charles, for doing me a solid. My fourth son, he's like, what? What am I going to become a priest? What is this? I was like, no, just ask. Ask Father Charles all your hard questions because I don't have answers. Okay, So I set this up as to why we're doing this panel because quite frankly, Kristen needs answers and Kristen needs to do A better job on campuses of how do we have this conversation about the value of life with a generation that really can't answer these questions? I guess I'll start with you, Sean, because you've got seven kids kind of in college, and then, Father Charles, you're dealing with high school students who seem pretty rowdy over here all day. But are you seeing this, too? Am I crazy, or are you seeing this too? What's kind of your diagnosis from what's happening on campuses?

[C]

Yeah. So I guess I'll start. And by the way, I am replacing Dr. Tollefson, who is supposed to be here today. For those of you who don't know Dr. Tollefin, he is also a legend. I go from reading his works in class and then coming here and filling his shoes. So, Dr. Tolleson, if you're listening, if you're watching, I'm going to do my best. Maya Coolpol, if I. I told him.

[A]

At midnight he was replacing him, and this is great.

[C]

So, like, I'm really stoked. So, look, I mean, obviously the moods have changed on college campuses. I don't think you can deny that something's gone wrong over the last five or ten years. Too often, I think we don't have discourse. It's ultimately like two monologues going past one another rather than dialogue. And so that's our first problem. Right. So being able to break through that and actually say, look, if we want to have a conversation, we have to have some degree of comparison of notes. Right. And for those of you who attended the debate last night, who attended the.

[A]

Debate, I think I should get an award for not going all St. Nick on the heretic. I'm just saying, you know, I think Travis, he was a literal heretic.

[C]

Father Charles, I think. Was it Travis who. I know, I went to the. No. Well, it's Travis. I went to the University of Virginia with Travis. I know him really well. He said at the end of it, he's like, let's give a round of applause for our four panelists. And I think I looked at my daughter and she looked at me, and we're like three, so. But there's what you're facing with in microcosm, there's not a whole lot of logic behind the debate. It's, I want what I want, and they will back every fact into a hypothesis to get there, if that's where they are. The most you can do is just plant your flags, say what you believe, say it calmly and respectfully.

[B]

If you.

[C]

If the ends are honorable, your Means and your method should also be honorable. And then that happens. What happens next, that's fine. If, on the other hand, there is a dialogue and you're there, one of the one things you saw, you saw this with Whitney. She was the first one who says, write a personal autonomy.

[A]

She can be converted.

[C]

If you watch the debate, yeah, this is where you get somebody like Whitney who's like, look, look, I'm bringing all this moral inventory, the right of personal autonomy. And here's where everything else flows from that. But you can see where she's actually asking these questions in good faith. And the one catch, when you get to the right of personal autonomy, there's two things to go with that. One, if you create yourself as an end unto yourself or the world's just for you, well, the world falls apart very fast, Right? We're not ends unto ourself. But the second bit, and this is what's most important, right, is that in order to have the right of personal autonomy, you must first have the basic human right to exist. You cannot have the right of personal autonomy unless you have the basic human right to exist. And unless we're all committed to the basic human right to exist, then that's how you get Charlie Kirk. That's how you get two monologues rather than a dialogue. So unless you're willing to look out and see the imago dei, not the way Caleb saw it, but the actual presence of Christ in the soul of another, well, then there's no moving forward. But our task, and I think it's the task of the pro life movement, is to really kind of put that flag down. It's like, no, it's good that you exist. The basic function of you actually being here is a positive good start there. And that will help sort of break down the facade. And I think that's something that we often miss sometimes. I know we get really passionate about what we argue. But start there. It's like, you know, it's good that you exist, and it's good that others exist, and we should defend that right to exist.

[A]

And that actually is shocking. I'll use that in my debates on campuses where I'll just stop and say, I am glad you were born. And it is very disarming because they, for them, because I don't know if they've ever actually ever heard that before. Father Charles, what have you been seeing? I mean, those boys at Oak Crest are pretty ratty.

[D]

Thank you so. Well, first of all, I wanted to say that when I was in college studying Architecture. I wish we had a pro life students for life group there because we didn't have that. But thank you for all you do, Christine, in the college campuses. And I so I was thinking of the revolution that Christianity brought to this world, right. In the Greco Roman world, many, you know, before Christ, but also at the time of Christ there was, I mean, human beings had very little value generally speaking. They were disposable and abortion and infanticides was very common, very common. And people had value depending on their, you know, I don't know if their strength on their, what they were, how efficacious or how valuable they were going to be in society. But there was no intrinsical value in human beings, generally speaking. And I was yesterday when I was at the march for Life. I don't know if you, hopefully you marched. And when the vice president of the United States mentioned about this article on classic archaeology that he read and in which he was saying that one of the ways of knowing that a place had been a brother, right. It was by seeing the amount of skeletons of baby skeletons that were, you know, killed and most of them were boys, right. Because they were of no use for the owners of that those places. Right. And we have also child sacrifice in other cultures also the vice president mentioned. So Christianity brought a revolution in saying that human being, human life has dignity of itself given by God that we have been created. And by the way, culture did not change overnight. It's not that from one day, from the next to the next, all of a sudden everyone knew that abortion was an intrinsically evil action. That is what the church, Christianity has always advocated from the beginning. And we have one of the first documents in Christian faith and theology and kind of the first catechism of the Church, the Didache in the first century says explicitly that abortion and infanticides are intrinsically are evil actions against the moral law.

[A]

I said that in the debate last night.

[D]

Thank you. Because that's so important because so that we can understand all of us, that from the beginning Christianity has advocated for this. And when there is someone who may claim that he or she is Christian and says otherwise. Well, I'm sorry, maybe you are not Christian. You're not Christian, so you are not following the teachings and you know, and faith that Jesus Christ brought us. By the way, Jesus Christ gave us the fulfillment of the faith that had been already been revealed to the people of Israel through the. You have the Old Testament, right. But the fullness of comes with Christianity anyway. So that's just my initial comment.

[A]

Thank you for Validating me because it was so insane. And then, and then I said, you can't be a Christian and, you know, not believe in the Trinity and that Jesus was the son of God and actually was a human. And then he lectured me on what it meant to be pro life. And that's when I almost went St. Nick on him.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which by the way, if. Yeah, if you claim Old Testament, New Testament and you, you ask the Didache question and as a theologian air quotes, you go blank. You need to consider whether or not you. I mean, did you.

[A]

I don't think you ever heard of it.

[C]

I mean, did your diploma come with a box of crayons? I mean, it's just. Yeah, you handled it very well. I'll just say at that.

[A]

Thank you. Well, I feel better about myself because.

[B]

I was trying really hard.

[A]

Okay. So I. Thank you. I took some notes too. I do think that's something that I have personally failed to really hit on in the debates of. This was a revolution. Christianity revolutionized the world. We would all be living in this terrible, even worse than medieval times. You know, we kind of think of the evil times as the worst, but the Dark Ages where of communism and socialism, where everybody is just a. A cog in the wheel of government and is 100% disposable if it weren't for Christianity. So I'm going to totally use that next time.

[D]

That's right. And I wanted also to say that we defended life from the beginning, even if we did not have all the scientific understanding that we have now of the embryo and of the all stages of development of the human being in the womb of the mother. So there were many theories out there about how was happening. And don't forget that one of the leader or leading opinions came from a Greek philosopher, Aristotle. Right. Who a few centuries before Christ, he was of the opinion that the. He didn't know when the human being that he was in the wound of the mother became a person. And he thought that there was a matter that was developing and at some point, a few weeks after developing, that person would receive the human soul. It became like vegetative soul and then animal soul. And then that was kind of the philosophical understanding of many people out there. So the church, Christianity, even if we could not see what was happening. Right. And we didn't know at that moment if there was like a matter in development and at some point God would bring the soul into the matter. It's called ensoulment. And that's been the theory of many theologians also throughout history, we now know many things, and we know that life starts at conception, human life. But at that time, even if we didn't know that, we knew that that matter was meant by God to become a human being. So even stopping that or disrupting that process was morally evil. Because life is a gift, right? It's a gift from God. So anyway.

[A]

Yeah. Because isn't there. So actually, the heretic pastor from last night, his brother recently debated. There's two of them.

[B]

Good Lord.

[A]

Michael Knowles. And I was watching to. I over prepared for that last night, just saying I stayed up all night and I did not need to do that. But in his debate with Michael Knowles, Caleb's brother was saying that Aquinas had a view of, like, that the sperm, like, entered the woman and just, like, hung out for a while. That was the medical thought of the day. Right.

[C]

Yeah. It's quickening is the definition of that. And so, once again, the father's point, what the early Christians and medieval philosophers, they came to, is that they're dealing with Aristotle. And so his line was quickening. But the reason why quickening at eight weeks is where the mother can feel that little flutter. The reason why that is is because they're referring back to Aristotle. They think it's animation, the anima, which is the soul. And so now you have something where.

[A]

The souls actually, and the laws in the 1800s use quickening because they said that's how they could determine if the child was alive versus a miscarriage.

[C]

Right.

[D]

So.

[C]

But notice, like, what Aquinas is pointing to. He's not really saying, you know, there's dead matter, and then all of a sudden there's live matter at eight weeks, and then it moves on. This is the best that they had. We know now, past the 1800s with modern embryology, that there's ensoulment, that there's animation in a single fertilized cell at the very moment of conception. And from that point, there is growth. There's tremendous growth. As a matter of fact, for those of you who actually do embryology, you'll find that there's these little sparks of light as the mitochondria begin to spread, split. And in some instances, you can actually see it with your own eyes. That's what's happening, and that's how animated and spectacular that moment is. Aquinas didn't have that inventory. He didn't have the knowledge. But he did have. It's more than just intuition. It's really the gift of the Christian faith to say that that Sort of animation is alive. It's different than plant life, it's different than animal life and is unique to human persons. And because of that, again, given the inventory they had, it's eight weeks. But we know now it's the very moment of conception. And that's something that, again, there is no debate among embryologists, there's no debate among philosophers, there's no debate among theologians unless you have a crayon packet coming with your diploma. There's no debate at all about when life begins. The question is the debate is really sophistry. And that's where.

[A]

And that's the entire. If you're. If you're honest. And that's what's so frustrating about debating somebody like Father Caleb or Reverend Caleb.

[C]

Or Reverend Dr. Mr. Caleb.

[A]

Yeah, Mr. Caleb was that he wouldn't even engage in a conversation about when life began. Right. He would say, I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell me, I don't know. But then you had.

[B]

How do.

[A]

You can't address this conversation because, well, what is it? If it's nothing, then we don't have to have a conversation. I can go home and not get stuck in Washington, D.C. tomorrow. I could be home in my pajamas right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't have anything to fight for. But if it is a human being, it's something worth fighting for. And I think that's the fundamental question in the abortion debate. When we teach you all apologetics, we always say, like in our apologetics, 101 or 201 trainings, if you ever had your regional coordinator give you a free training, if not, go to our table out there and sign up for a training. The fundamental question when you're debating abortion with someone is, well, what is it? What is inside of the womb? Is it nothing or is it something? It's either one or. Right?

[C]

And I think this is where. I think Dr. Tollefson, if you're here, this is where he would probably raise the question of action and intention, Right? And you can hear it, like when Whitney's talking about it, they say, well, the question is, is the baby actually a human life or is the truth child of human life? Well, not a child. I can't. Well, okay, that's a semantic move. It's a distinction without a difference. But what they end up doing is they end up redefining the words so they can move intention away from act. And so if the act is still intrinsically evil and all, abortion is all destruction of a basic good is evil, whether it's Rape, murder, abortion, euthanasia, things of this nature. There's no separation. What they're trying to do is move and say, well, my intentions are this, this. And the definitions are this. And so if my intention is gerrymandered and the definitions are gerrymandered, then it's permissible to do the thing. The problem is, is that when you start getting into those moves, you cannot separate first order or second order or sometimes even third order intentions, if you understand clearly or a reasonable person would understand what the results of that act are going to be. And that's where they fall down. And so this is where again, when they start moving it around, use words like fetus or clump of cells, or embryo or things of this nature. I mean, Aristotle's going to lay them out. And he does this in the metaphysics. He's very clear. It's like an acorn is oak, is a grand tree, but it's all in potentiality, but it's still essentially an oak at core. The only difference is time.

[A]

Yeah, that's the taxonomy, right? The classification of species, that's a whole science practice is taxonomy. I was going to go there last night, but that was going to be clearly over his head.

[C]

But you do not get to remove intentionality in action. Exactly, that's it.

[A]

How do you start the conversation, Father, then? Like, how do you, with a generation that doesn't understand, or somebody you're talking to doesn't understand the revolution that Christianity has brought to our world? If they don't understand, it's good, we believe it's good that they just fundamentally exist. How do you find that it's best to start the conversation?

[D]

Well, not by saying that the Bible is a scientific book, right? That's not a good. As if any. Everything should be on the B in the Bible, right? So the Bible doesn't say where or how, you know, human life develops, but it says that you shall respect every human life and you shall not kill the innocent person. Right. So it's up to our common sense, reason, science, and for us to apply the moral laws that God has given us. How do you start our conversation? Well, first of all, with a lot of, I would say as an encounter, because I'm thinking of Jesus Christ, how he came into the world, right? And when he started to preach and to spread the truth, he did that in a very compassionate way, truthful way, and also understanding the difficulties that the people that he was talking to, those difficulties that they had and their backgrounds and he was very patient as well. So looking at how Jesus did it in tackling all the important moral issues in his time and in all history, that because he's the fullness of revelation, I think that there is a model there to follow. So I would say that, or this is what I did when I was a student in college, what I try to do. First of all, the person has to understand that I'm coming from a position of love for the other person, position of trying to help that person to understand the truth and knowing the arguments. But the arguments are important, but they are not everything, because the way you transmit them, the way you relate to the person, makes the person more open or close to the truth to what you are saying. So that's also, I think, the Christian way of debating or talking about these topics, these important topics. So know the reasons, know the science, know what God has said and the fact that God. And again, this revolution of understanding that every human person has the dignity given by God, regardless of the capabilities or the capacities that that human being has or the stage in development. It's really crucial here. Right. So anyway, and then I, you know, a cup of coffee is always a good place to.

[C]

One thing I kind of like to add to that, and this is common to the tradition of philosophy, and I'm sure it's certain in theology as well, or other fields. The point of arguing is not typically to win, it is to understand, right? You're trying to get to the truth. Right. And so too often, and I think we all deal with this, whether it's our families or other things, you argue to win, you argue to get a point across, and they're doing likewise. And it's just, again, two competing things. But if you can bring the conversation around to understanding, it's like, okay, what are we driving at here?

[A]

Let me understand how you could be so wrong. Is that what you mean?

[C]

Close? Yeah, but it's like, look, look. I mean, you're using the words fetus, you're using an embryo, and you're saying, therefore I can take an innocent life. Like, what are those words doing for you? And have them come back. And if they're talking, they're investing. And typically, the best way to change somebody's mind, it's not really to beat them over the head until they crack. It's say, look, here's your understanding of the world, but let me make it a little bit better and give you what I have, and then just let that sit next to their opinion for a while. And you'd be surprised how quickly people Come around.

[A]

I remember. And I always try to tell you all this when we're doing trainings of you never. You get to plant seeds when you're on campus, and sometimes those seeds you throw out of your hands are going to fall on rocky soil and sometimes on fertile. So I feel like there's a whole thing in the New Testament about that.

[C]

From Jesus, but just a story, Kristen.

[A]

Just a story. Just poetry. You have to watch the debate.

[B]

We'll put it up on the podcast.

[A]

You gotta watch it. It's illuminating. But I think that, you know, when you understand when you're having these debates and you're having these conversations, you know, don't try to walk away winning every single debate because it kind of makes you start acting a little weird. You can get aggressive. You can get in their face. You could let the conversation go too long. We have a whole training of students for life called dbw. Don't be weird. And it's a common thing that us pro lifers like to do because we know abortion is killing a baby, and we don't want to leave that conversation until that person has been beat over the head and agrees with us. Abortion's killing a baby. It's very hard for us to be like, how can you be so wrong? I'm speaking from personal experience, but you have to view it as you're planting seeds. Sometimes you have an incredible honor of, like, harvesting the seeds. Sometimes you're just watering the seeds. I've had students that have come up to me at events, and they'll say something like, oh, my gosh, when you said this one thing, that's it. It happened last night at the debate. Someone came up to me after the debate in the hallway and said, I was pro choice until 24 weeks, and now I can no longer be that way. He was sitting in that debate last night. The funny thing is that one, I didn't say anything, right? I just made Mr. Caleb look stupid. And it was proof that God can even use heretics to change minds. Because pointing out the illogical positions that this pastor was taking show he said, I was sitting there thinking, my God, he sounds so stupid.

[B]

Stupid.

[A]

And then I realized that was my same position, right? And I think we have to, as pro life activists, figure out what kind of seeds can we leave in people's minds or how can we harvest maybe seeds that have been planted or, you know, water them and maybe we get to see them harvest sometimes, which usually.

[B]

It'S not really us.

[A]

It's somebody else who's done the hard work. We just get to be the final person that makes that light bulb go in their head. So I'm going to ask you the hard question. What are the seeds I can be planting? What are the tidbits, the little things I can say or our leaders can say on campuses that will hopefully replay in their peers minds over and over again until maybe it finally clicks?

[C]

You know, there's a lot of things that I can include in that. I think we've kind of touched on it earlier. Sometimes people really just haven't heard that their life has meaning and value. We live in a postmodern world. For those of you who've been winged by philosophy, you'll eventually bump into Nietzsche and the Death of God. If God is dead, we have killed him. And who will forgive him? Us? We who are his murderers? And you can do that. You can make that argument. Suffering in the world is sort of the one argument that most people use against the existence of a God. If God is good, why do we suffer? Okay, take up the argument. Say Nietzsche is right, God is dead. Does your suffering go away? Are you still in the world? Of course. But now you're trying to give meaning to it yourself. And this is the problem that he's trying to explicate. But at the very same token, Christianity teaches us something very different. It says that even if we were the only person Christ could save by dying on the cross, metaphorically, maybe, I don't know. Or rising from the dead, metaphorically, apparently. So I'm sorry, I'm really still not getting over here.

[A]

Still not over last night's debate.

[C]

I'm just not over him. But even if you were the only person Christ could save, he would do it. And he would do it with a full heart and willingly. In the same way that you read it in scriptures, it's like you actually do matter. It is good that you're here on this earth. And if you've been abandoned and left alone in this world, that's. That's the moment where Christ is giving you that opportunity to see a reflection of himself in another person, in the image and likeness of God. And you will rise to the moment, or you won't. But those are the opportunities where the Holy Spirit speaks to us. Those are the moments where Christ is looking back at us. And you may never realize how many people you chose. And God doesn't ask you to succeed. He's not asking you to win, but he does ask us to try. And that is the difference. And that's the one thing If I could give it to you, have the courage to live your convictions and live your faith, because there's a starvation, there's a hunger in this world for it. And they're looking to you to be the one moment. I mean, you may not change the entire world, guys, but you could change somebody's world and their very world could be one or many other people who breathe and take life and experience joy and love because you gave them the moment of humanity they were begging for. That's what I would give you.

[D]

Now, I would say, adding to everything that you have just mentioned as a priest, I think that we cannot forget that we need to pray for people as well. It's not enough to go there with an intellectual argument, that's very important, of course, but at the same time, let's not forget. But because of original sin, and this is revelation from God, we have our consciences, our reason is darkened, and we have sometimes difficulties in reasoning well and in accepting things that are true. So there is where grace comes in as well, part of the package, right? So we have to pray for people. Pray for people and again, show them the love of God for them. Because listen, there have been so many, so many millions and millions of abortions in this country, country that we all know, or at least you know, you may know people who have committed abortions out there. And there are a lot of wounds to be healed. And we also need to understand that people need to change their minds and to come back to, or at least to see the truth, the full truth, right? They need to see, as Christine was saying, happy faces, loving faces. So anyway, prayer is part of this conversation. And some people unfortunately have not been in church or have not prayed for a long time. And this is something that you can also help them with so that when they go to church, if you invite them to church, right, or they invite them to pray or invite them to recognize things of their lives, they will be thankful and they will be able to be. The closer you are to God, the more light you can see in the moral arena and also in the faith. So anyway, those are elements to take to have into consideration.

[A]

Will you have time for one more question? How do you think the pro life movement can do better to start this conversation fundamentally, to get to the root of this issue? Because there's always this question. As a pro life activist, right? We always want to keep the main thing, the main thing. We always want to make sure we're focusing on abortion. I'm not talking about children dying in Gaza or Dying. I mean, there's a lot of world tragedies that matter that we could use our time to talk about. But we want to keep the main thing, the main thing, because this is the largest human rights abuse in our world today and it deserves its own movement. And we've had this battle in the pro life movement from time to time of like, well, maybe our groups and pro life groups should care and talk about 20 different things, which would be fine, except then you're only spending 1/20 of your time ending abortion. Right, but how do we as keeping the main thing, the main thing, talking about the value of abortion, how do we get to the root better as a movement?

[C]

Right. Well, two things, and this is something Mr. Caleb brought up, is if you're really pro life, you know, do you provide health care, do you provide all these social services, et cetera? Well, guess who provides all the formula and diapers and jobs and housing? It's the pro life movement. And we're talking billions of dollars, guys, because we believe what we say we believe. And there's a consistent ethic of life behind that. It's the dignity of the human person. But once again, coming back to an earlier point, do you have the right to food and healthcare and all these things? Well, nominally, if you believe that natural rights is morality, and that's the Catholic position, much of this. But again, all of this is predicated on the basic human right to exist. If you're not defending that, you can't have access to the rest. And so if you really believe in all these other things, you have to defend the predication that every single being has the basic right to exist. So that's where I would start with it. The other thing, and something to remember, this is like, well, why are we providing? Or we're not just providing it to be consistent. I think fathers mentioned this in alluding to it. But does anybody know what the opposite of love? Love is? It's not hate, it's not lust, and it's not indifference. You know what the opposite is? Use. Because use is inward, use comes to you. Love is outward. And John Paul II talks about this extensively in Love and Responsibility. If you were to say, well, Mr. Kennedy, what do you actually believe? I would throw you love and responsibility and says, this is it. Too much of the world is predicated in use, in what's good for me. And if you really believe that you're your own God and you're the center of your own morality, if the right of personal autonomy trumps everything, you will Sacrifice a great deal in pursuit of that principle, even to the lives of others. We're not an end unto ourselves, right? There's a higher good beyond ourselves. That higher good has a name, Christ. And so dedicate yourself to that end. Dedicate yourself to Christ. And that end isn't just a thing. He is a person. And he loves each and every single of us with an intensity we will never understand until the day we die. That is the cornerstone of everything we do. Do not forget the who we are doing this for and why we're doing it. That's where I would. That's what I would give you. That's what I would hope you would carry in your heart. And again, if we do it this way, skip to the end of the book, guys. At the end of the book, we win. Have the faith of your convictions.

[D]

So I think that one of the elements of the pro life movement that needs to be always present here is our sense of optimism, because there are many. And not getting discouraged again. Christianity did not change the Roman Empire overnight. It took 300 years. Now, I hope that it doesn't take us 300 years to, you know, to bring life to this country. But at the same time, we need to have. We cannot uproot all the evil of the world. This is. Jesus says that in the gospel when he says, you know, when they have. There is a field with wheat and wheats. And in the parable, right, the harvesters asked the owner of the field if they should remove the weeds. And Jesus tells them, well, let's wait until they are all, you know, everything is grown so that we can harvest everything and separate the wheat from the weeds, and then we will burn the weeds and store the wheat. So the reason I'm saying this is because this I have seen sometimes, unfortunately, a sense of discouragement that needs to disappear. We have gone, we have achieved so many things, and there are many more that need to be achieved. I know that. But when they see us joyful and optimistic and let's continue in this way so that we don't fight each other, because there are many ways of approaching or tackling these aspects. How prudentially, how do we get to the end, which is to make abortion unthinkable, how do we get there? Well, let's make sure that we are all united, the pro life movement, in being always understanding that we are all going in the same direction, and then we fight in the same direction. And with, again, with a sense of optimism, because we are in the truth.

[B]

That's excellent.

[A]

What are your final comments here? I don't want to open up another question and then start think over time, but what, three minutes each? What are your final comments for how Gen Z, the least church generation, can be reached and taught the value of human life. And how can we as pro life activists on our campuses and our communities and our churches bring that conversation in a joyful, winsome, effective way, whether it's planting seeds or harvesting them?

[C]

Sure. So one of the things, I really hate to keep going back to that debate and Mr. Caleb, but it just sticks, right? He's talking about a faith of compassion and all these things. We need to be more compassionate and all this. Guys, you can't be more compassionate than Christ. You can't be more merciful than Christ. And the compassionate they're talking about does what? It doesn't actually bring life into the world. It kills one and it wounds another. And then you have those conversations. I'm sure that all of you on campuses have found the young lady who says, I had an abortion. And you see them justifying it, but you see the anger and the hurt. It's like they've been pot committed to a decision that has irrevocably altered their life. And they, they don't see it turning around. And the real task is to get them to see. It's like, no, your past doesn't define you, but who you were intended to be and become does. And if that's not firmly rooted in something real and intelligible and reasonable and Christ does all of these things, then floating straw is going to look like a life raft to a drowning man or a drowning woman. And that's, I think, what you see out of most of the world. And they again, sacrifice the most terrible things in order to justify their own actions. But give them a loving heart, give them a Christian heart, give them, show them your faith. And I promise you, it's like, you know, one candle really does overcome the darkness. This is what we believe, this is our faith. Have the courage, have the humility to defend that. And those seeds that Kristin's talking about here, they'll develop into something wonderful. But not because we've done anything, because the Holy Spirit is real and he's working in the world. He's only asking you to try. That's what I would give you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

That's great. Father Charles, you get the last word.

[D]

Well, I think that first of all, I think that we need to be very grateful to God for all the formation and the light that we have received. In understanding this issue in the right way. And we want to, again, be able to pray for all those who don't understand or their minds are darkened by their actions or by what they have consumed in social media or they have because of their background. We need to be compassionate. We need to tell the truth. Sometimes I think that people may be afraid or scared of having a conversation because you may say, well, I don't know how to start. I don't know what to say. Don't worry, just start. Say something and God will do, you know, miracles. He will perform miracles. Through your courage and through your words, the Holy Spirit is going to be there helping. So as the first Christians, the first Christians, when they went out to bring the word of God to bring salvation through their message of Jesus Christ, well, they were not theologians and you are not scientists and you are not maybe anthropologists, but you have many. You know the truth in your heart. And so don't be afraid of starting a conversation, even if the person were to perhaps antagonize you or maybe say something that you don't know how to respond to. Well, as Kristen was saying, you have planted a seed there. And I have to say, as a priest, as a minister of God, many times I rejoice because I am in the position many times of reaping what others you have planted and watered. It's all the words, the Holy Spirit, but he uses instruments like you. So don't be afraid. That's my final encouragement at 90 seconds.

[A]

So I'm going to make one of you answer this question. I'm going to pretend to be a pro choice student on campus. I'm trying to think how I do it. Well, that's really great, but I'm not a Christian. So f those babies, I'm going to do what I want to do. Who wants to be the Christian and respond.

[C]

It's a good thing your mother didn't make that argument.

[A]

You're snarky. All right, Father Charles. Well, well, that's what I want to say.

[C]

Father Charles is going to be much more pastoral.

[D]

So thank you. Thank you. So the. Then you have to use reason.

[A]

Of course.

[D]

You have your reason. Reason and faith go together. So if someone doesn't accept Jesus Christ, doesn't accept Christianity, well, you use what God has given you with your intelligence and your ability to argue, and then you will pray for that person because God will also be helping that person. Even that person doesn't know it. But there is no. You are right. I mean, you cannot quote or make use of the Bible. Right. In that scenario. But don't forget that truth convinces by itself. So it has a very powerful evident truth, self evident truth. Right. So this is how I would say I would tell you, don't be afraid. In either case.

[A]

There you have it. Hopefully that helps you all in your conversations on campuses. Thank you, Father Charles Troulis. Thank you, Sean Kenney, for joining us for this panel on the value of life. And I hope it will help you go out and change more minds and hearts and win them for not only the pro life movement, but for all eternity.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by the pro lifegen Shop and our brand.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And I thank you all for tuning in. I hope you found it as helpful this session, as helpful as I did and took more notes than I did.

[B]

I think I'm gonna be rewatching it myself. Tune in next week for a special episode of the Kristen Hawkins show where we're gonna break down the pro life abortion showdown that Lydia and I had the debate with a pro life pastor and a woman running for Congress in California.

[A]

It is fun.