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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Kristen Hawkins Show. Now, if you missed the National Pro Life Summit this year, you missed something pretty big. In Washington, D.C. we added a new component to our summit the night of the National Pro Life March. The night before the summit, we hosted the abortion debate showdown and it was wild. You probably have seen some of the Instagram clips. They're crazy. The debate featured myself, our spokesperson, Lydia Taylor Davis, and we squared off against, and I don't know how she found these people, Reverend Dr. Caleb Lyons, a pro abortion Christian pastor and author, as well as Whitney Shanahan, a pro choice advocate and social media influencer, mainly on TikTok, who's also, I think, running for Congress, which makes me extremely concerned even more than I already have been for the future of our country. The event, though, was such a huge success. I wanted to sit down with Lydia separately out of the craziness of the debate night and replay some of the most standout moments for the debate for you and maybe we can have a longer conversation about what happened. Before we get started, I want to give a shout out to Lydia who arranged this debate. This was her brainchild. She spent countless hours having to comb through stupid TikToks working behind the scenes, inviting a number of TikTok and social media influencers to come and debate us. Which if you know anything about trying to organize pro life events is not an easy task. In fact, it's very common that as a pro life advocate, if you set up a debate like on your campus or your community, that they'll like cancel at the last moment. It's like widely known because here's the truth. Even pro aborts know they can't compete with the actual truth and so they hate to debate. So we were honored to have Reverend Dr. Caleb Lines and Whitney Shanahan who agreed to come in the first place and engage in this debate, but was really thankful for Lydia and her leadership getting this whole event, really making it happen because honestly, I didn't really want to do it because it was the night of the March for Life. It's the night before the Pro Life Summit. There was exhaustion, had been going into that weekend for weeks because there was so much happening at the state legislative level, at the federal legislative level, plus the event, plus the March Life. So it was an exhausting moment. But it was so much fun. It wasn't like one of those, like, I don't know, I, I'm not usually a fan of like academic debates. Like I actually literally the night before I was watching another Academic debate to like prepare myself for this. And I fell asleep literally in the middle of watching it. A lot of times debates tend to get kind of boring, but I think by inviting, you know, YouTube influencers, those who are on the ground, it got pretty exciting. So, Lydia, do you want to come talk about what happened?
- [03:01]
B
Yeah. Thank you for having me on, Kristen. It was a blast. Yes. We were exhausted. After a full day of Kristen and I marching, we still showed up. So we had an unfair advantage. We were exhausted. We had been marching to save preborn babies all day and these pro abortion influencers sitting there hotels all day. But we still showed up and brought some heat. It was a, it was an amazing time. I mean, we had a packed out event and so all the pro lifers that were there for the march already in the summit were able to show up. And it was just amazing. I mean, the audience was live reacting to how ridiculous this pastor pastor was. Because let's, let's be real. Are you really a pastor if you're advocating for abortion? Um, and we had at least one mind change that night. One of our great pro life friends, Emily Burning, let us know that her brother, she had brought him and he was pro choice, he became pro life at the debate. So we already changed at least one mind through that crazy night. But it was so much fun.
- [03:59]
A
I believe we have video of me talking to Emily's brother in law about his mind change. We definitely need to get that video up on social sooner rather than later because he came up to me after the debate and, and was actually crying because he said, you know, I just realized during the course of this debate how stupid this pastor sounded. And then I realized that's what I sound like when I say some abortions should be legal. And so it was a pretty profound moment for him. And I think it really speaks to the point of having these debates. You know, sometimes there's criticism of you and I on campuses of like, well, you're debating idiots, you're debating college students. I mean, first of all, if you advocate for abortion, sorry, you are an idiot, but I don't care how many titles and doctorates you have. But people are like, well, you're just making, they're not having an academic discussion and it's not moving anything forward. No, it really does matter because when you're drawing out the conversation and when you're on campus and you have these crazy people and they're crazy outfits and sometimes they even dress in like costumes and you can, you can extrapolate out what it is. They're really saying. And you can show the world what they're really saying. That in itself. That's why I always say, like, pro choice people make more pro lifers. Like, I don't have magic words. I just make them mad enough that they want to come talk to me and then we can show the world their logical position. That's literally our job. I'm not a great apologist. I can just show people how stupid people sound. That is my skill, that is. I was just doing an interview and someone's like, oh, you're a great apologist. I'm like, no, I'm actually not. I have friends who are like, way more talented and way more, I guess, calm and collected and empathetic towards other people's views. My talent is getting people to actually say what their position is and expect exposing that. I think that speaks to why these debates, even with these crazy people worthwhile. I was also so proud, Lydia, of our students because I warned Caleb before when we were in the other room, like the green room, and I was trying to be nice to everybody before I was mean to them. But I warned Caleb, like, after this is over, my students are going to want to have a word with you. And I was so proud because I went out, you and I were taking pictures in the hallway with students who had been there. I had to go to our national leaders collective meet and greet, which was next door with our top student leaders. I came back from that event and Caleb was still surrounded with our students who were debating him. I was so proud of our students. And then all day on Saturday at the National Pro Life Summit, students were coming up and being going. You didn't even hear the worst of what he said. And they were having conversations. So shout out to pro life student leaders who surrounded the pro choice pastor and debated him for like, well and like, well after the event. It was like an hour or so after the event trying to change his mind. I was so, so proud of them because I called it backstage, like, they are not going to stand for this. And they didn't. So let's queue up some clips, Lydia, so we can talk about this crazy debate. I. I pretty much have forgotten most of it because I was so exhausted. And soon as we went from that, we went to the summit. And then from the summit, I've been going to states and dealing with state legislative victories and challenges. So this is some of it. I'm probably going to be like brand new, fresh from hearing it for the first time. So I'll try to keep my emotions in check, but I can't promise it. It's hard.
- [07:33]
B
Righteous anger is coming out from both of us.
- [07:36]
C
It's difficult.
- [07:37]
A
Yes.
- [07:37]
B
So do you think that. You think that it's okay to kill children up to this size?
- [07:42]
C
So as we know, a child can't fit inside a uterus.
- [07:48]
B
Yeah. Do you think. Do you think that the child's argument.
- [07:51]
A
All night about premature children. How many of you here were born premature? There's gotta be some people. How many weeks were you born? You weren't born at six weeks. 28 weeks. So she was born at 28 weeks. So what was she. And her mother's. I guess you just came out of her mother's vaginal canal.
- [08:13]
B
Hold on, hold on.
- [08:15]
A
I.
- [08:15]
B
Did you hear what Whitney just said? I guess she just made it. How can you say that? That is, I mean, honestly, disturbing. Like, oh, I guess you just. Just happen to be alive. Like, oh, whatever that is.
- [08:28]
A
Abortion gauntlet.
- [08:29]
B
It's a thing.
- [08:29]
A
What that is right there.
- [08:31]
B
No, I mean, it's exactly what Kristen said. They. We don't even have to make an argument. They're making themselves so evidently extreme.
- [08:38]
A
She goes on multiple minutes to talk about how she couldn't fit a child in her uterus. Like, no, you had a baby. You had a. A child is a baby. Like, child is offspring. Like, it was like the stupidest argument. I couldn't fit a child in my.
- [08:55]
B
No, I know, because it doesn't make sense because like you said, the premature babies. Does she not think that that same child cannot fit in the uterus when that. At a normal. At a normal pregnancy, that's exactly what it would be. It doesn't.
- [09:07]
A
At the end of the day, to be pro abortion, you have to believe in the theory of the magical vaginal canal that suddenly turns a non child into a child in six inches of my magical vagina. That's it. You have.
- [09:22]
B
You have to believe that anyone who listens to Kristen for more than five seconds has heard all about her magical vagina theory. It's. It's true. I mean, that's what the pro choicers believe. There's something magical about.
- [09:34]
A
I have a magical vagina. What can I say?
- [09:36]
B
Apparently, according to the pro choice, that's.
- [09:38]
A
What half the country thinks.
- [09:40]
B
But no, it's. I mean, she. She really. We don't have to.
- [09:42]
A
I love saying that on campus because the pro choice boys don't know what to do with that information. They don't know if they can laugh. They don't Know if they should be disgusted. They have no clue. It's so much fun.
- [09:53]
B
I know, it's the best. But no, Whitney is, is. It's, it's.
- [09:56]
A
I've learned. I like to say things just to make people uncomfortable.
- [09:58]
B
You do a great job of it, Kristen. But no, I mean, Whitney, I mean, especially, I think it just was absolutely horrifying because she's had her own children. She's seen her children's ultrasound.
- [10:09]
A
Yeah.
- [10:09]
B
And I know, I know there's no way that she said, oh, that's, that's a fetus. No, she, I, I want, I can bet that she called her children babies in the womb. She just doesn't want to admit it because she knows it would make her look stupid. But here we are. But, Whitney, thank you for exposing how extreme your side is with this lovely clip.
- [10:29]
A
Next clip.
- [10:30]
B
How then did John the Baptist get filled with the Holy Spirit and leap for joy if he was not alive?
- [10:35]
D
Yeah. So this is a metaphorical story.
- [10:39]
B
What is a metaphor?
- [10:40]
A
Did Jesus come to earth, die on the cross, and resurrect in three days? Yes or no?
- [10:47]
D
Jesus was born on this earth and Jesus died on the cross. But people often misinterpret what that was for.
- [10:55]
A
Did Jesus resurrect? Did he come back to life?
- [10:58]
D
And so I think this has literally nothing to do with our debate tonight, but I will, but I will say that Jesus, the audience is not ready.
- [11:06]
A
To go Jerry Springer on his ass. Let's just put that one thing.
- [11:10]
D
And that was for people who were a part of an insurrection. And so Jesus proclaimed the basileia of God. Anyone know what the basileia is? The basileia is the reign of God on earth, the kingdom of God on earth. And he talked about loyalty to the kingdom of God, a place where peace was created through the presence of justice, and loyalty was to God and not to Caesar. And that got him killed.
- [11:38]
B
And the whole thing is just heresy. And it's interesting because he comes with this position of, oh, well, the Bible justifies abortion, but then he only.
- [11:45]
A
No, it's like everything in the Bible is a story except for Genesis, which he says at the beginning of the debate, he believes that God truly breathed life into Adam. That's when Adam's life began. So life doesn't begin till first breath. Genesis, of all the books in the Bible, is the literal book.
- [12:03]
B
Yeah.
- [12:03]
A
But everything else is just a nice story, like crazy. And the room was going, that's what made this debate so much fun. Lydia, was that the room? I mean, like my mother My mother was in the audience. My. My two sons were my mom's friends. And my mom's face was making it even more fun because my mother, I thought was good to stand up and start screaming.
- [12:28]
B
My mother in law did. She went after Caleb after she went up and she called him out. She was, she was not having it. My Christian mother in law was losing it.
- [12:35]
A
I just. It was so funny to watch the crowd reacting to it because it was so wrong. It was so wrong. Yeah.
- [12:43]
B
No, I mean, it's just, it's. It's heresy. It's. It's ridiculous that he can call himself a Christian and believe. And he's, he's. You can tell he's struggling to even answer basic questions about basic concepts of Christianity. Did Jesus rise from the dead? He. He gets all flustered and do you.
- [13:00]
A
Notice he never even said, Jesus died on the cross for forgiveness, our sins, that we could live in eternity with him. Like the. He had a. Had a moment as a minister to present the gospel message. Instead, he actually took the message that my Jewish friend says, no, Jesus died because he was an insurrectionist and a revolutionary against the Roman tyrants.
- [13:23]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [13:24]
A
Like, I found out you're a freaking minister. That is like your one job. The one job you have is to proclaim the resurrection of Christ and the forgiveness of sins, that we can all make it to heaven if we accept what Jesus did and gave us. Like, that is like your one job.
- [13:42]
B
Your one job preach. That's. That's a good preaching from Kristen. No, I mean, I found out later Caleb doesn't actually even believe in hell. So I'm like, what? What is.
- [13:50]
A
Yeah, our students found that out when our Texas Students for Life State captain actually came up to me. Thomas, who's amazing, came up to me the next day and was like, yeah. Did you know he doesn't even believe? He thinks it's just like this concept. So there's. I don't even know if he believes in a heaven. So, yeah, it's like the Unitarian Universalist Church. I tried to study it one time. It's basically like, we believe whatever and you're part of our church. I don't know how they have any, like, sermons or whatever, unless it's like a Quaker service and everyone just gets up and spouts off random things on their own. But yeah, like, he's not, he's not a Christian.
- [14:28]
B
Yeah. And it's funny because he, he tries to stay in this, like, oh, well, this isn't really about faith. I'm like, dude, you're a pastor. This is your whole job. You should be able to defend your, your ridiculous statements.
- [14:38]
A
Oh, yeah, no, his whole thing at the beginning, Lydia, was he didn't want to talk about the biology of human creation because that's not his specialty. He's about the Bible.
- [14:47]
B
Yes. Oh, cherry picking.
- [14:50]
A
You should do the next one. The next, next heresy.
- [14:52]
B
Yep, yep. Next heresy for us.
- [14:54]
A
You don't believe in the Trinity? Do you believe in the Trinity?
- [14:58]
D
I do not.
- [15:01]
A
And this is where I almost went St. Nick on him because this is what St. Nicholas did. He punched heretics. This is the exact same heresy, people. Do you. I should get an award. Lydia should get a word for planning this debate and sweet talking these people to getting on stage with us. I should get an award for not standing up and punching him in the face. Someone please recognize how hard that was for me.
- [15:26]
B
Hey, hey, Jesus. Tables. Jesus flipped tables. Righteous anger is a good thing. Kristen, you, I mean, really, you're just being like Jesus with this.
- [15:34]
A
Where is my award? I know not. Oh, that was my biggest fear going into this debate is that people are like, oh, Christine, you're too aggressive. So I just, I didn't, I didn't even want to do the debate because you know, Gen Z doesn't like aggressive debaters, right? This ain't no arrival. I love it.
- [15:52]
B
I'm Gen Z and I, I, I.
- [15:54]
A
Know you like it, but most people don't appreciate it. So I was trying to be very calm so the Gen Z's would appreciate, but oh my gosh. Yeah, so I think I should get a word for that. But keep going.
- [16:05]
B
We need to pray for him.
- [16:05]
A
This is not a Christian.
- [16:08]
D
Well, see, you don't get to define who is and who isn't a Christian.
- [16:13]
A
I mean, every Christian denomination would say, if you do not believe in the Trinity, you are not Christian.
- [16:19]
D
That's actually not factually accurate.
- [16:22]
A
Where did you find this person? And the thing is, he has more tick. I have the, the highest tick tock following. According to you, Lydia, in the pro life movement of like pro life leaders, right? He has a higher following than me. He has like 100,000 plus more followers than I do.
- [16:42]
B
He does like mag versus series and that's how he wins them over. He's just like literally lying to people about the Bible. And I mean, people just eat it up because unfortunately my generation doesn't actually care enough to open their Bibles and realize the truth. And so he's just getting away with spouting absolute nonsense and literally using The Bible to try and justify it makes. I'm, I'm with you, Kristen. I, it makes me more angry because it's one thing to just be pro abortion, but to use the Bible to justify killing God's children, the thing that God hates the most. It is, it is. I mean, it's demonic. I mean, honestly, 100 Caleb, it is. You are working for Satan actively.
- [17:23]
A
I know people are always like, oh, you're so calm with people on campuses. I'm like, one, you don't know what's going through my mind because I'm really glad you don't know what's going on my mind. But two, I don't. I'm not calm. In the videos we've seen, like, there's, we've done videos where it's like me, like going after someone and it's always when someone's trying to justify their support of abortion. The most horrific evil in our world today, using the Bible, like, that's where I lose all. Like, no, I'm not calm and cool and collected like whichever one. Because that to me is like the mo. Because most of the time when people are debating with us about abortion on campus, we are talking to post abortive people. We are talking to very lost and wounded people. A lot of students who we now know when we draw them out conversation, don't even think that they themselves have value. But like this, this is inexcusable. Like, there's no excuse.
- [18:20]
B
Yeah. I think especially because he's a church leader, he's held to a higher standard. I mean, the Bible talks about how leaders are held to a higher standard. He is actively leading his congregation because, yeah, sadly, this man has a church. He's actively leading his congregation away from God. And I mean, I think that he, he deserved what we gave him that night. What you gave him, Kristen. I mean, it's evil at its finest. It really is.
- [18:43]
A
No, it really is. It really is. Let's shift the gear to Whitney a little bit and talk about some things I was trying to get her to find common ground on as someone who's. She's actually interesting to me because she was quieter during the debate because the most outrageous thing in the debate was this pastor. So Whitney was pretty quiet because she had used to be an atheist. But then she revealed during the debate that she just recently started going to church. But I was. I think she's movable. So let's, let's go to a clip with Whitney. You and I agree that no mother should ever be forced into that position of thinking she has to do. And that's why yesterday our Pregnant Students Rights act passed at the House of Representatives. And I was so angry that every Democrat voted against that bill except one. I want to know, since you're running for Congress. Last question. Since you're running for Congress, our Pregnant Students Rights act is budget neutral. And all it says is, is that federally funded institutions that take taxpayer funds have to tell a woman where local pregnancy centers are and are federally protected Title IX rights. So if she chooses life, she knows there are other places that love her more because we all know Planned Parenthood's advertising. We all know Planned Parenthood's there in sex week and freshman orientation. As a Democrat running for Congress, would you have voted with all the Republicans and the one Democrat from Texas and saying, yes, pregnant students should be informed of their rights and health care that doesn't include killing children?
- [20:17]
C
I would love to look at your legislation and I want to say this. I think we could agree on this. I would love to live in a world where abortion didn't exist. I would love to live in a world where there is no rape, where every pregnancy is viable, where every woman has access to. To health care to have a safe pregnancy. I would love to live in that world. But right now we're living in a world where that doesn't exist. And as I've mentioned, there are complications and nuance. And one of my biggest issues is how women who have miscarriages get caught in the crossfire of abortion bans right now in the United States, coupled with women that want to have pregnancies, myself including wanting.
- [21:04]
A
But there's no pro life laws that say women who have spontaneous abortions, miscarriages should be prosecuted.
- [21:11]
C
You're right. And it's in the writing of the current laws in the book and the misconstruing of what is currently in place. And I feel like if we're having, if our goal is, you know, women who are pregnant to have access to health care and be able to have safe, viable pregnancies, what are avenues to get that accomplished? Because right now we, whether you're on this side or that side in the United States, that's not happening. And how do we get there? Because right now that's not happening.
- [21:40]
A
I actually want to address this fatalism view because I did this substack piece, which by the way, I started substack. You should follow it.
- [21:49]
B
Go read it.
- [21:50]
A
Yeah, no, but I did this substack piece on fatalism and the worldview because. And I Did it from the opposite end. I was debating this. I was testifying for the West Virginia Senate Judiciary Committee the other week and it was on our Anti Chemical Abortion Trafficking Act. And the bill allows criminal prosecution for those who illegally ship the pills into the pro life state of West Virginia, or civil, where a woman or her family member can sue after she obtains the pills from these illegal traffickers who shouldn't be shipping pills into the state to kill babies. And the kind of abolitionist senator was arguing that, you know, we can't have this civil penalty, which is the reason we have it, is because of these Democrat states who have shield laws that literally don't let criminal prosecution move forward, like California, New York, and we've seen that like Louisiana and Texas are trying to go after illegal chemical abortion pill shippers from New York and California and their governors like refused to allow the law, the criminal whatever charges to go forward in their state, whatever that legal term is. So the civil is trying to rectify that. And this person was basically arguing with me that like, well, there's a bunch of babies addicted to crack addicted mothers. They're in the NICU and you're going to have women who are addicted to drugs and they're going to get pregnant, order chemical abortion pills, illegally have an abortion and then sue over and over again for $10,000, which is not probable because if you had an attorney who would actually help her, he would lose his license because that's against the ethics of, of, you know, attorneys at law. But, and, and suing for $10,000 is a lot of time, a lot of money to sue for $10,000. So it's actually not a lot of money. But it was interesting because it was like this fatalism worldview of like, well, we can't just pass this law then because there's, there could be somebody out there who may try to do this awful evil thing to skirt the law. And it's like, it's almost like the same thing. Lydia, like when you listen to her, she's agreeing with me. She says she would love to live in a world where there are no abortions, where every woman has the resources she need. But because she, because she has this fatalist view of where we are at as a society, therefore, then she has to now advocate for abortion. Like it's, it's like it's, we have it on both sides where it's like, well, why can't you just agree that this is wrong, we're going to stop the killing and then we're, we're going to simultaneously work towards all of these resources and support we need. I don't know.
- [24:23]
B
I just know how you feel about that. With our Pregnant Students Rights act, which, yes, pass the House when this had happened and passed the House but then failed in the Senate because Democrats killed it. And so we are told that we're the side that doesn't provide for me. We are trying to. While the left, the pro abortion movement is actively trying to stop us. And I think actually Whitney, I agree with you. She might be willing to shift. She seemed more open to, to changing your mind on this. Actually just was stalking her on Instagram. She hasn't really since the debate posted very much pro abortion content.
- [24:54]
A
Really. I actually DM'd her on Twitter, but then I had to switch my phone and I don't know how to log back. I'm sorry. On Tick Tock. I don't know how to log back into Tick Tock. You know, my tick Tock problems. So once I figure out, I want to see what you. Because I I DM'd her. I wanted to continue the conversation with her because she genuinely cares. She generally cares about women. And as a mother, she knows the truth. As a woman, she knows like her daughter kicked inside of her womb. She felt her daughter kicking inside of her womb. So she's, you know, that's why she was went on that stupid, you know, hill to die on about how it's not a child because she can't admit, you know, that it's a child in the womb because then that would make her a monster for advocating for abortion. But I definitely think there's movement. I just.
- [25:38]
B
Yeah.
- [25:38]
A
What was sad is we had that victory where our bill passed the House. It went to the Senate just like two days later and it got killed because we didn't have 60 votes to surpass the filibuster. And it was once again Democrats killing a bill that would do a common sense thing that both left and right say that they support, which is giving women access to information if they choose not to have an abortion. But this shows you just how entrenched the Democratic Party and Planned Parenthood and the abortion lobby have become together and how, how entrenched abortion is into the DNC right now that they can even let a bill like that move forward.
- [26:18]
B
Right. It's never been about supporting women. It's about supporting abortion on the left. And I mean, I think, I think Whitney could come around. I think, I mean, I think truly for a lot of pro choicers just showing them that we are the side that does care. We are the side. Our pro life laws give funding to pregnancy centers towards foster children. We are the side that cares. I mean, we raised money to pay for the hospital bills of Adriana Smith, that woman who was in the news recently, who was on life support and, and, and brain dead and her child was still alive. We care. We are the side that cares. We just have to debunk that misinformation from the other side that they somehow care about women by encouraging abortion which harms women. So I think, I think Whitney can come around. I, I don't know. Whitney, if you're watching this, it's not too late to join the pro life movement. Just saying.
- [27:03]
A
I know she makes money off tiktoks, but you can make a whole lot more money becoming a pro life star choice. I think that's the other sad thing about the influencer culture too. I was thinking about that. I was like, man, if she would change her mind, it actually might hurt her financially because she's making money off of being a tick. I disagree about influencer culture because I. You have people who are like, do you actually believe that or you just say the most outrageous things because you continue to get more views than money for them?
- [27:30]
B
Yep, yep. Well, it would be powerful testimony. So Whitney join students for life. Never know happen. So Whitney, as. As much as I think that she can come around on the abortion issue, she did say some pretty outrageous things, including saying that abortion pills are safe, which they are not. So let's see what she has to say about that.
- [27:51]
A
On January 22, 1973, when seven men handed down Roe versus Wade, was there a national abortionist training school because the next abortion became legal nationwide and all the people who were doing the back alley dangerous abortion suddenly were able to advertise. So how did abortion become safe overnight? Sometimes I even surprise myself.
- [28:19]
C
Obviously in the 70s, every single medical procedure across the board was less safe as it is today.
- [28:28]
A
Now we all know we have the.
- [28:30]
C
Abortion pill, which is incredibly safe.
- [28:35]
B
Tell that to the 32 women.
- [28:37]
A
The EPC data would argue that that's wrong because 1 in 10 women end up in the ER according to 800,000 insurance records of women who've taken Mepristone. And the FDA is studying that.
- [28:56]
C
Do you think it is safer to carry a pregnancy to term or to use the abortion pill for women? Which outcome for a woman?
- [29:07]
B
The abortion pill. The abortion pill always kills someone.
- [29:11]
A
Always deadly. 100%.
- [29:15]
C
The medical outcome of a woman.
- [29:17]
B
We support actual health care for Both the mother and the child. Whereas the abortion pill is, is intentionally trying to kill at least one person and at least 32 other women have died from the chemical abortion.
- [29:27]
A
Yeah, I'm actually surprised you would say it's safe because when you think about the RH negative stats, I was debating an abortionist about this not long ago because it's always been common procedure in abortions that you test a woman's RH status because if there's RH incompatibility between her and the child's blood types and she has an abortion, a spontaneous abortion and miscarriage gives birth and there's a commingling of blood, antibodies can form in her body that will allow her to get pregnant, but will attack all future pregnancies as like a foreign intruder. And so it's always been common practice in the abortion industry for surgical abortion to give an RH status test and to treat her with Rogan shots before or after the abortion. That's not even happening now with the Biden administration's reversal of all common sensations standards on chemical abortion pills, which by the way, our polling this week of Gen Z and Gen Y voters with a mainstream polling company found that nine out of 10 young voters, the majority of whom are not pro life, I would classify pro life want these common sense safety standards. Would you agree that that should at least because chemical abortion, the way it's being practiced today, Whitney, there is no.
- [30:45]
C
Testing for RH negative status pregnancy. There's some points I obviously agree with you. Pregnancy is incredibly dangerous situation. When a woman finds herself pregnant, she needs access to health care whether she is going to continue that pregnancy or not. And the reality of pro life laws that ban abortion, the reality of it is doctors leave states, obgyns leave states where those are in effect because they're having trouble practicing. And my question to y' all is, that's not true. What are you or what are the suggestions to do?
- [31:26]
A
It actually was disproven. Just there was a recent study saying that is actually false, that that is not true.
- [31:35]
B
I think we should talk about chemical abortion pills. I mean, does she. Chemical abortion is back alley abortion. I mean, that's what it is. I mean women are bleeding out in their bathrooms.
- [31:45]
A
I actually did literally what they say. During the whole 90s, right? During the whole 1990s, they said they want abortion safe, legal and rare. They didn't want any back alley abortions. That's why they convinced all these Americans and Christians to vote for Bill Clinton because they were like, well, we don't like abortion, but we don't want to hurt women. But that's. You're right, Lydia. Like chemical abortion is a back alley abortion, right?
- [32:07]
B
Exactly.
- [32:07]
A
So it's 100% not safe. Chemical abortion is never safe for the child. I think you did a very good job here when she's trying to get you on is abortion safer than childbirth? Because that is an apples to oranges comparison. And we actually there, because we don't have a national abortion reporting law, there is no good data to have that. An educated conversation on that. In fact, there was a Supreme Court amicus brief that the ACLJ did. I'm like thinking of it in my, my memory, my photographic memory now of like reading it, because that was an argument that was made back in 2000, was it 2007, when there was the case, the partial birth abortion case that came before the Supreme Court and we had a victory there. And the argument was like, well, abortion is needed because it's safer than pregnancy complications that arise. And we're no one saying that there aren't legitimate pregnancy complications that arise. We definitely know that there's healthcare disparities. We for some reason African American women have a higher maternal mortality rate and we think it's because they're delaying getting care early on the pregnancy. Because the most dangerous time of your pregnancy really is at the beginning of your pregnancy. And if you have obesity, there's a lot of complication factors there like type 2 diabetes, things like that. If you have previous abortions, your risk for placenta previa dramatically increases, which we already know is high in the African American community. So we don't have good conversations about maternal mortality. But what's really interesting, and I don't know if you know this, Leia, but in some of the stats where they, when they list mortality, maternal mortality, they will list women who've died from abortions in the maternal mortality stats. So that it's, they're actually listed but it's not separated out. It's like the denominator is all skewed when you try to actually get good statistics there. So I think you did a good job of being like, well, 100% chemical abortion isn't safe because in every successful chemical abortion a human being dies. Um, and I think you, I think you got her back to the actual conversation because I think if you get into that conversation, you're going to get into basically a pissing contest of studies be and most of those studies are dramatically skewed towards the pro abortion position because there isn't a national abortion reporting law. And so until we do what they do in Europe, and I hope we don't ever get to this point because they now like, basically abortion isn't controversial and so they actually measure it like the, like knee surgeries. Right. We don't want to get to that point. But because they do that, you actually find there's better studies coming out of those countries on the risk factors. So, like the risk factor about suicide, suicidal ideation, depression, you actually get better numbers from Danish studies and things like that tell you that a woman's six times more likely to commit suicide if she's had an abortion versus giving birth to a child.
- [35:25]
B
Right.
- [35:25]
A
Even more than if she had a spontaneous abortion, which was a miscarriage. The other thing that she was wrong on was she was saying OB GYNs were leaving pro life states. So a JAMA study, which JAMA, the Journal of American Medical Association, I think is not like JAMA is not pro life at all. But they're, they're a peer reviewed journal, recent study from them said there was no significant net change in OBGYN numbers and banned abortion states throughout 2024. I think this, it does say that there was a drop in applicants, a 6% drop in applicants in those states. But honestly, I would say that's because of the fear mongering of the left. Because that's what they've been saying is like, oh, what, obs are going to be prosecuted, you can't practice medicine and you're going to have to let your patients die of pregnancy complications. And so it's more about their fear mongering because we've always been saying, you know, all of our laws say there's absolutely a way to treat mother and child if there's a life threatening situation. But that's literally what the left never talks about.
- [36:34]
B
Yep. They're deliberately creating confusion. And I mean, I think one of the other things that I wish we had had time to talk about with Whitney because I think she would have maybe sided with us, is how dangerous chemical abortion pill trafficking is because abusers can get these drugs, minors can get them. I did an undercover investigation with Students for Life and some of our students and was able to get these abortion pills shipped to me without any verification of who I am. I could have been in my third trimester pregnancy. You can order these in pro life states. And, and it's honestly sickening because we've already seen cases of abusers, of rapists, of traffickers using these pills and forcing them on women to get rid of the baby. And it's, it's sickening. And obviously these pills have killed women, they've hospitalized women. And I think I, I mean, I, I hope that Whitney would say, whoa, that's a huge red flag that this is assisting abusers. Abusers love chemical abortion. It's not pro women. It's all for profit. It's all about exploit, exploiting women. And so, I mean, I think it's ridiculous to even say that abortion pills are safe even if you are pro choice. No one should be thinking that this is safe. That 10 year olds with a cell phone can order these pills to their house without their parents even knowing. It's sickening. And it's not pro women at all. So, Whitney, again, if you're watching this, I think you need to be on our side about these abortion pills.
- [37:56]
A
All right, so let's switch topics and let's talk about this clip about consent and how that came up here in the discussion.
- [38:04]
C
So my question to you then is, you said you gave consent, so what if consent wasn't given and it is, and there, there was a rape or a sexual assault of a woman or a child at that point.
- [38:19]
B
Yeah.
- [38:20]
C
Should they then have access to abortion, health care or not? Where do y' all stand on that? Because I think, at least from my stance as a pro choicer, when I look at the, when I talk to pro life individuals, which I do all the time, I always wonder because I find there's multiple different stances on this. And I think this is an important distinction because there's varying levels of, you know, where you feel. Because we all know where I'm from, in Ohio, there was an 11 year old child who is the victim of rape, incest, and then prolifically, you know, forced to carry the pregnancy to term can be very, very dangerous for a small child. So, you know, I'm curious y', all, where, where do you take that? So if we take, if we're taking, you know, the consent to be. Well, what if there isn't consent?
- [39:17]
A
Yeah.
- [39:17]
B
You know, it can take about two minutes for this. And then before we move to the final stage, first of all, I want to be very clear. No pro lifer ever wants a woman to become pregnant. In the case of sexual assault, she has endured a serious trauma. And that rapist needs to be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.
- [39:31]
C
Amen.
- [39:32]
B
A lot more than what they're currently being held accountable.
- [39:34]
C
Amen.
- [39:36]
B
In that situation, that woman deserves real help, real healing, real support. Abortion is not Going to undo the trauma she just went through. It may add more trauma, and it's going to add for sure a second victim, the baby. In a society where we do not even give the death penalty to rapists, you all are against the death penalty. How can we give the death penalty to an innocent child for the crimes of their father? It does not make sense. There are people in this room right now that chose life in that very hard situation of sexual assault who would say that that child was the one good thing that came out of that terrible situation. And I know people who were conceived in sexual assaults and their lives are valuable. They are not determined by the terrible actions of their father. Their lives are valuable. And regardless of the circumstances of anyone's conception, that person is valuable. We should be supporting women in those circumstances, which the pro life movement does. We offer free resources, help that Planned Parenthood does not. We are the side that cares about women. Abortion is not a solution for that situation. I think it's interesting pro choicers bring up these rare exceptions. They talk about these 1% of cases, and I don't think they actually usually care about those rare situations because they're just using them to support abortion for any reason up until the moment of birth. A lot of these pro choicers, and so I really think that they often are exploiting these very sad situations of women who are, who are sexually assaulted that deserve real help and healing, which abortion is not. And they use these to justify abortion on demand, which I think is sick and gross. And so, I mean, I, I wish I was hoping I'd get to them with this response, but Caleb just immediately goes back to, oh, that's traumatizing. When I personally know women in that circumstance where, yes, what happened to them was terrible, but they would say their child is the one good thing that came out of that terrible assault, that their child did not deserve to die because of what happened to them. And I know, Kristen, you also know people who have been through that situation, children who were conceived in sexual assault who deserve to be here and shouldn't have been killed for. For what their father did.
- [41:51]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think I wish Ryan Bomberger had been in the audience. Right. Or Rebecca Keisling or any of our other friends who have, were conceived because of sexual assault and then adopted in love. Because I think that, I think that's the power and the testimony of having folks who are so brave who have those stories to come out and speak in our movement. Because having just, you know, one of those folks in the audience, I Think could have really hit home and changed a lot of minds because that's what they needed to hear. And I think, you know, we can argue with reason and logic and facts, but I do think that when you can have a personal testimony, it goes a long way, especially when you're talking with, With a leftist.
- [42:40]
B
Yep, absolutely. It was. I think, I think Caleb Whitney focused on these exceptions because they were too afraid to justify their extreme beliefs. I mean, I think, I don't think I really ever got a clear, clear answer from Whitney at any point on when she actually thinks human life begins. And anytime we'd ask Caleb, he'd say, well, I'm not a biologist. I'm like, it's middle school biology. I mean, we all learn the seven characteristics of life. Human life begins at conception. It's not hard to understand. And they just kept dodging that to try and focus on these other things because they don't really have any arguments on their side, as we saw throughout this debate.
- [43:18]
A
No, and it's. And it's fascinating too, because it's like if you're arguing for killing a human being, you have to be like, really sure what you're arguing for is not killing a human being to be pro abortion, like, you need to be a hundred percent sure that abortion doesn't kill. I mean, I don't think I could sleep at night if I thought, you know, like. But. But it doesn't. But they really, truly do not believe, if you're assuming the best, that these are human beings that are being killed.
- [43:49]
B
Yep, yep. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [43:52]
A
It's a lot more faith to be pro choice, I think, than it does to be pro life, to be honest with you.
- [43:56]
B
That's right. That's right. And obviously, Kayla, when talking about this, these exceptions, brings up the other argument that we hear all the time from pro choicers, that pro life laws, that we're letting women bleed out in parking lots if we end abortion, that abortion is necessary in some cases or else they'll die. Which is of course false. But let's hear what our favorite pastor Caleb has to say about it.
- [44:21]
D
That if she carries child to term, that she might die. Or what about situations where we know that the child once born, every breath that they take, which I've defined as life, every breath that they take will be excruciating once they, once they are born, that they will. That they will suffer every minute of their lives. How about in those cases?
- [44:47]
A
Can you name a pro life law that says that a woman whose life's at danger Must carry to term.
- [44:54]
D
I'm asking you your opinion on this is what I asked you. I said, what is your opinion on whether or not a woman should be forced to give birth if her health is at risk, if she, if she might die or.
- [45:07]
A
Or if it might cause serious pro life organization. There is no pro life advocate who says if a mother's life is at risk, if she is going to die, if she continues to gestate the child within her, that she must continue to gestate that child, because that makes no sense.
- [45:22]
D
So in that case. So in that case you would.
- [45:24]
A
Because she will die and her baby.
- [45:27]
D
Will die, you would allow an abortion?
- [45:28]
A
No, that's not an abortion. It's called a C section, my friend. That whole thing we were talking about, vaccines. It's called a maternity. Because, listen, the way late term abortions are performed in our country are extremely dangerous. Every week you wait as a pregnant woman to have an abortion. The higher your likelihood of serious harm or death. The way late term abortions, when you're talking about the life of the mother, a help, when she has help syndrome, placenta previa. When you're talking about one of those situations, the child is too big for the sofa clamp as planned parenthood abortion.
- [46:04]
D
Okay, but what I hear, what I.
- [46:05]
A
Hear you saying is grasp the child's limbs with the sofa clamp and so they have to administer digoxin.
- [46:12]
D
In that case, what I'm hearing you say is that in the case that the mother's life is at risk, that you are supportive of that.
- [46:17]
A
It's a maternal fetal separation.
- [46:20]
B
The intent is not to intentionally end the child's life. You're not trying to save as many lives as possible.
- [46:26]
D
A distinction without a difference.
- [46:27]
A
But no, actually, that's a lie. Kayla, if you let me finish, how it's happened. A late term abortion happens when they insert digoxin into the mother's womb to get as close to the child's heart as possible and induces a cardiac arrest. Then they insert Lumeria seaweed sticks into her cervix and she's told to come back to the abortion facility to deliver two to three days later. And if it all goes according to plan, she will deliver a child who's had a heart attack and has died in utero. A maternal fetal separation is. We take her into the OR as quickly as possible. We perform a C section on a living child. We have the NICU there and every potential resource we have in that hospital to preserve life, and we do everything we can to treat that human being with dignity because he or she is just as valuable as the mom. But we're not putting his life over mom's life.
- [47:24]
D
Described the medical procedure in which that happens. How about if a mother's quality of.
- [47:28]
A
Life will then be really want to talk about? It's called adoption, Caleb.
- [47:35]
D
No, no, that's not the question that I'm asking you.
- [47:39]
A
I started out calling him.
- [47:42]
B
I feel like you had to like, treat him like a toddler sometimes. Like he just doesn't understand basic things. Like he just is super uneducated. And I guess a lot of pro choicers are.
- [47:52]
A
You have to give it to him because you got a lot of guts to go on tick tock, make videos, present yourself as an expert and then be such an idiot on this issue. Yeah, like, I wish I had that level of guts, I guess, because. Wow.
- [48:09]
B
No, absolutely. I mean, there's, there's thousands of doctors that will tell you they, there is no medical reason to intentionally kill a baby while, while trying to save a.
- [48:19]
A
Woman'S life at state houses and in Congress and Capitol Hill in Washington of obgyn saying, no, you do not have to commit an abortion. And yes, a fetal maternal separation is vastly different from an abortion because the physician's intent is to preserve life and to end the pregnancy, not to end the life of the child. And it is different. And I can see, I guess if you're pro abortion, you're like, oh, whatever, just kill it. But no, that is not the intent of the physician.
- [48:52]
B
Yep, absolutely. And of course, every pro life law, despite what the pro choicers say, it protects that medical procedure to save a woman's life all the time. I get pro true to say, well, no, these laws don't. And so I pulled the law. I have it right now. They love to talk about the Texas pro life law, about how there's, there's no way it doesn't allow for anything. I read them out loud from the Texas law, section 171, exception for medical emergency. Sections 171 and 171, 204 do not apply. If a physician believes a medical emergency exists that prevents compliance with the subchapter, essentially saying we are allowing the doctor to save the woman's life no matter what, whatever they know is best to protect their patients, which, yes, includes both the mother and the baby, they have that authority to intervene. And so any case where there has been a woman that has sadly passed away in pregnancy, it's because she has a bad doctor. Not because of the pro life laws. The pro life laws exist to protect as much life as possible, whereas abortion is intentionally trying to end at least one life. And so I mean clearly, I mean Caleb just needed to be educated. So thank God Kristen was there to to be give him a little, little advice.
- [50:01]
A
He didn't want to hear it though. He did not want to hear what happens in a lead to abortion. As every other abortion advocate always. It's fascinating because once again if you're going to advocate for something like killing a human, you better know and you better be really sure it's not a baby, not human. And they clearly haven't done the research because over and over again they're uncomfortable when they hear what happens in the abortion actual procedure.
- [50:31]
B
Right. And he thinks that the Bible supports abortion up until birth. You think that's about. He thinks that the Bible supports late term abortion. If I remember correctly, there was a moment where he said I'm actually more gracious than the Bible because I'm against after viability. Or he. Well, he maybe kind of gave that line but then he kind of backtracked it. I was just like horrified. He's like, are you kidding me? You really think that the Bible allows injecting babies hearts with digoxin and ripping them from the womb? I mean it's sickening. As someone who's called abortion facilities to see if they'll do late term abortions. I had an abortion facility that clearly explained to me each step and then offered to give at least the child some sort of dignity by cremate cremating the baby's body after they had committed this horrific late term abortion on this baby. It's sickening and it's happening at least 10,000 times per year in America. And of course Caleb doesn't want the audience to know about that so he just backed right away and rolled his eyes and gave us his little smart.
- [51:27]
A
It's interesting because he acted like. And once again this is what you said earlier about the rape question. They act as if it's like this big compassion for the rape victim and the rape survivor or the mother who's going through a life threatening, very scary situation. And then immediately, immediately they go to about her, just her overall health or her quality of life is going to be impacted. And so it's. They're always right there with another but or what about this? And so it gets to like, you know, the Scott Klusendorf Pro Life Apologetics 101 training back in the day which was keep the Main thing, the main thing. And when you're debating about abortion, the main thing is what is it? What is abortion? Killing was abortion doing. And the main thing is the baby. Because at the end of the day, that's what makes your case.
- [52:21]
B
Right, right. There's no justification for it in any of those cases they bring up. Absolutely. All right, do we have some more heresy coming from Caleb in this next clip? I think.
- [52:31]
A
Do I need to get my notes out from the debate? I can get my. I still have my, My big bind. Your O notes.
- [52:39]
B
Caleb, do you think Mary should have been able to abort baby Jesus?
- [52:44]
D
So I want to take a step back and I want to address what.
- [52:55]
A
Whether Jesus was human?
- [52:57]
C
No, I have an answer to that. Let's take the heat off him for a second.
- [53:01]
B
Yeah, sorry.
- [53:02]
D
Let's give him.
- [53:03]
C
Let him give him a little break here.
- [53:05]
A
I know he can handle it.
- [53:07]
C
There was a question that Kristin brought up and it was about a car. If you're in a car accident. Okay. So my question is for y', all when we're talking about compassion and how this would actually affect our lives today, because we know there's separation of church and state, the Bible's not going to be into the law, but what is in the law and what we're dealing with now? So if we do grant personhood upon conception and we were to completely outlaw abortion in this country, you have to look at the situation. So you have a first time moment. Newly pregnant, she's driving and she accidentally runs a stop sign and she gets in a car accident.
- [53:50]
A
Wait, how do we get from Mary to this? First of all, literally.
- [53:54]
B
Literally, it's them dodging the question. I think, I think after this I eventually got Caleb to go back to answer the question. Is that right? I don't know if we can skip forward, but no, I mean, they're dodging the question because they don't want to answer it because it's the son of.
- [54:08]
A
Why did Caleb say this? I literally don't remember this.
- [54:11]
D
Can I make a 10 second, just a 10 second little piece on this? There is a moment where the angel approaches Mary and says that she will carry Christ. And again, not a literal story. Okay, this is.
- [54:34]
B
I think we need another three hours to talk about all that.
- [54:37]
D
But that's not what we're talking about today, so. Okay, all right, let's be direct here and not talk. Not what we're talking about today, Caleb. And Mary says, may it be so.
- [54:48]
A
She says, yes.
- [54:50]
D
And so Mary gets.
- [54:51]
A
Mary gets to choose before Conception, she chooses before conception. That, yes, was before Christ entered her womb.
- [55:03]
D
I think this is the important thing is that since this story is a story in which we are getting a narrative about Jesus and it is a story, I mean, go ahead if you don't believe me, go read Luke and go read Matthew. They're two different stories. Okay? And so if.
- [55:25]
A
Do you believe.
- [55:26]
D
Here's the thing. You know, I believe in the Bible, so I.
- [55:29]
B
Okay, so. So Caleb says, read Luke. So you know what? Let's have a little Bible study with Kristen and Lydia right now. I have Luke, chapter one open. I love the Christmas story. I'm obsessed with Christmas. So let's read it. And the angel said to her, do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name, Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. And his kingdom, there will be no end. Mary said to the angel, how can this be since I am a virgin? And the. An angel answered her, the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth, in her old age, has also conceived a son. And this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren, for nothing will be impossible with God. And Mary said, behold, I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her. So we see here. Well, first of all, even if Mary was given a choice, it was before conception, before Jesus was conceived. But in this, I mean, obviously God knew that Mary, of course, would be thrilled to carry the Son of God.
- [56:45]
A
She.
- [56:45]
B
She was an amazing follower of God. Um, and so the angel says, you will. There is no point where he says, you know, why you're going to conceive baby Jesus. You can go and down to the Planned Parenthood and abort baby Jesus if you want. No, that is completely made up. And it's actually so angering to me, as someone who loves Christmas, that Caleb's trying to ruin the Christmas story by advocating that it's okay to abort the Son of God. Absolutely wild. He completely lied about this passage, trying to say that it somehow advocates for abortion. It does the opposite. The Christmas story is. Is a pro life story. It is the story of a Woman in an unplanned pregnancy who obviously chose life, who wanted her child, and the preborn baby who saved the world. Another preborn baby. In the Christmas story, John the Baptist was the first person to rejoice at the news of Jesus. God chose John, a preborn child, because he knows that preborn children are valuable. So I was losing it up there. I just. Caleb was ridiculous during this. I couldn't do it.
- [57:49]
A
You said it all. I don't think I need to say anything.
- [57:52]
B
I'm real passionate about the Christmas story. I can't. I know, Christian.
- [57:56]
A
You should be, but I know you also just love Christmas in general. For the Christmas celebratory season. Yeah, no, it. I didn't even need my notes for that. I got my notes out and everything from the debate, but I clearly didn't need them because you had your. Your scripture verse pulled up. But Caleb is. I mean, this is why I stopped calling him Dr. Reverend Caleb halfway through the debate. Because he doesn't deserve that title. Yep.
- [58:19]
B
He's not leading his congregation to heaven, I'll tell you that.
- [58:22]
A
Nope.
- [58:23]
B
It was wild. Okay. I think we have one last moment of heresy from Caleb, I believe, to debunk.
- [58:30]
D
As I've already said, the Bible defines life not as beginning at conception. It specifically says that a fetus is property. So you can't both claim.
- [58:41]
B
Can you read that verse?
- [58:42]
D
Huh?
- [58:42]
A
Can you read that verse?
- [58:44]
D
Yeah, it's in Exodus 21.
- [58:47]
B
Okay, let's pull it up right now. Let's flip out our Bible.
- [58:50]
D
And while you're. While you're.
- [58:51]
A
This is a great debate.
- [58:55]
D
In this scripture, there is an argument, and in that argument, there is a woman is carrying a fetus, and there is an accidental miscarriage caused by the fight. And in this chapter, the father is compensated. It says, however much he deems it worth for the loss of that fetus. Now, look, it's not just.
- [59:26]
A
I got it. Do you want me to read the scripture? Exodus 21, 22, 25. This is a New American Standard Bible translation, which is important in the Old Testament, as we know is the Old Translations. And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman's child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty, life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for head, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for Bruise.
- [60:05]
D
Perfect. Thank you very much. I appreciate you pulling that up, Kristin, to help us engage with the text more meaningfully. So as you can see in that they treat the woman's life as murder. Should that woman die, then it will be a life for a life. But in this case, the fetus miscarries and the judge determines the compensation. Now, we all agree that that's morally reprehensible. Nobody thinks that a fetus is property. Nobody thinks that.
- [60:38]
A
So if you think I hit you by accident in my car because I'm a terrible driver, should I be tried with first degree murder? Or are you against manslaughter? Are you saying that I am not defending Caleb. That's manslaughter. That doesn't say that Caleb was less of a human than somebody murdered.
- [60:56]
D
I'm not defending what it says in this chapter in Exodus 21 because I think it's morally reprehensible. I'm telling you that the biblical definition of when life begins does not factually line up with the claim that you have made. You have made your own theological interpretation, you have made your own philosophical interpretation, but it's not the biblical.
- [61:20]
B
Okay, let's stop it there. Okay, so his first argument is that because preborn children are regarded as property, that means the Bible is pro abortion. Born children back then were also though considered property. So is he trying to argue that it's okay to kill born children? It's ridiculous.
- [61:40]
A
So it's a before when you start that chapter says 21. It's about servants.
- [61:46]
B
Right.
- [61:46]
A
And how you're treating servants and slaves. Just FYI. Yep. Like that's how that whole chapter starts out. And I think it's really interesting because it's up for interpretation because if you. I don't know what. I just pulled it up. I think this is an niv. So this is a Protestant. And the Catholic and Protestant Bibles are different because one goes off Greek, one goes after Hebrew. So there's. There are like words are distinctly different, especially in the Old Testament there. But if I look up this NIV version of doesn't actually say because it just says, but if there is serious injury, it does not say serious injury to the fetus. It says just a serious injury. So it's actually up to interpretation. What, what was the law there, the Jewish law, the theocracy, the Jewish state of Israel, what that meant there. Because it doesn't say if there's serious injury to the baby or fetus or tomorrow. It just says serious injury. So I've actually heard people who are for criminal prosecution. Abolitionists of mothers who have abortions use this ve to justify capital punishment for women who've had. Had an abortion. And they say, well, there's serious injury. You're taking life for life. I for eye for eye. Tooth or tooth. But we actually don't know. It's not said. Are they talking about serious injury to the. Just to the woman, the pregnant woman who's struck in this fight, or if you're talking about the child in the womb.
- [63:19]
B
Right, exactly. And I think no matter which translation, if the one Kristen is reading it is accurate and it's talking about finding someone for causing a preborn child to die, they're still finding someone. That's not justifying abortion. God is saying that there is value on the preborn child regardless of which punishment it was that he's getting. That doesn't make abortion okay. But yes, Kristen is right. I actually looked it up and I found a pastor found the original Hebrew. Old Testament was written in Hebrew. And the original Hebrew text is written like this. When men fight and strike a pregnant woman and her child and her children go forth as in be born, there's no indication of miscarriage and there is no injury. He shall surely be fined as the. As the husband of the woman may put upon him, and he shall give by the judges.
- [64:07]
A
But the thing is, go forth. If you think about premature birth, because NIV says premature. There were incubators in Exodus.
- [64:17]
B
Right.
- [64:17]
A
So when you're talking about premature birth, first of all, we need to back up and we're talking about a child that's born dead or who will die shortly after birth. Just FYI, no one's even thinking about that because the NIV version says born prematurely or birth prematurely.
- [64:35]
B
Right.
- [64:35]
A
And so half. So Niv New King James Net Bible is talking about prematurely, but we're. But we think prematurely as, oh, that's. You can still live, but not back in Exodus. I don't. I mean.
- [64:48]
B
Right, yeah.
- [64:49]
A
And. But then you have the other translations. Or miscarriage.
- [64:52]
B
Right, Right, Yeah, absolutely. So there is actually a Hebrew verb for miscarry or lose in that way, and it's the word shakal, and it's used in Exodus when it is talking about miscarriage. But that word is not used in this, in this verse that Caleb is referencing. Rather, the Hebrew word there is go for forth. And it's the same word that's used when it talks about Jacob and Esau being born alive. It says they went forth. And so is this translation shows that if a Pregnant woman. If a person causes a pregnant woman to be harmed so that she has a premature birth, which again is dangerous, like you just said, was very difficult. And, and the baby is still born alive, or is at least born alive at first and is born prematurely, then that person is fine because that's, that's, that's harm. That's not good. But if the baby is then killed, the Bible goes on to say, if there is further injury, the baby is killed or the mother is, is killed, then it is life for life.
- [65:49]
A
Well, Niv doesn't say the baby. It just says if there's it for. Because.
- [65:53]
B
Right.
- [65:54]
A
That's my other point is it says. It just says, but if there's serious injury, it doesn't say to the mom or the baby.
- [66:00]
B
Right, exactly.
- [66:01]
A
I actually think that's still open to interpretation too.
- [66:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think regardless of which translation, whether is talking about miscarriage or it is talking about a premature, either way, there is punishment for harming a preborn child. And that actually Caleb was trying to use this to support abortion. This passage is pro life. It shows that God clearly places value on preborn children. So if we learned anything from this debate, it is that Caleb has zero biblical evidence on his side and The Bible is 100% pro life.
- [66:34]
A
Yeah, no, it's. And it's. I think it's really interesting that you, you also have to understand that even when we have manslaughter laws and like, you know, if a police officer shoots somebody, trying to shoot them in the leg and they're fleeing a scene and that person dies, we are not going to treat. Even though we would agree that that shoplifter, whoever got shot in the leg, has value. We're not going to give the police officer the same punishment as if someone's like, oh, I'm just going to shoot you in the leg. Right. Like, no, that person, they have value. And they didn't. We, we could say, yeah, they didn't deserve to die because they were shoplifting a tv, but the police officer acted within his right or whatever. And be. We don't. Our, our laws don't change human value. And I think that that's what's important when you're talking about like manslaughter laws. Like if you accidentally hit some with your car, you shouldn't have done it. You should have been paying attention. It was obviously an accident. The question is, what should your punishment be? Your punishment is obviously going to be different than somebody who intentionally tries to destroy a human being. Right. And Goes out and takes their car and says, I'm going to use my car as a weapon and mow down somebody in like a terrorist attack. There's obviously different intents there. And just because the punishment might be different between those two people, it doesn't change the person, the victim's value. And I think that's what gets left off in this, like, abolitionist discussion, because it's like unless we put every person in jail for this set amount of years, the child doesn't have value. No, the child absolutely has value. Child has infinite value. There is a, there is a legitimate question there though, between what the abortionist is intending versus what the mother is intending. And that's very hard to legislate to say. We know every single mother who goes to have an abortion or orders chemical abortion pills feels this way when we don't know that's how she feels. Especially since we live in a society that's told her for 50 plus years that abortion is nothing. It's empowerment, et cetera. We can obviously disagree, we're trying to change that culture. But I think there's a rational, reasonable dispute discussion here of the intent from the physician might be 100% different or vastly different from the mother who's seeking the abortion. We don't know. Maybe it's the same and it could be the same. But to legislate that and say every single woman who's seeking to have an abortion feels this way, that's like an impossible thing to do. And when we're trying to just stop the killing. But I, I just, I find it interesting because he's using this as a pro abortion pastor to justify abortion. And I've heard abolitionists use this phrase to call for capital punishment for women abortion. So it's like both sides are using this verse. But like, as I just said, like, you don't know, it says serious harm. Serious harm to whom? Mother or child? The abolitionists are assuming it's both. I, you know, most pro lifers would probably like to assume it's both. We don't know that. And this is old laws for a Jewish theocracy, which we, by the way, don't live in a Jewish theocracy. So there's, there's so much for that.
- [69:52]
B
I know. And I mean, I think one of the other most ridiculous things about Caleb throughout this entire debate, throughout all of the heresy he threw out there, is he said the Bible justifies abortion. But I for sure heard him say at least one time during debate that he actually doesn't believe The Bible should dictate. Dictate the legality of abortion. He thinks that science should. He kept saying, oh, the Bible isn't a biology textbook. But then when we asked him, okay, when biologically does life begin? He couldn't give us an answer. He kept being like, well, well, viability is this time. That's not when life begins. Caleb, when does it begin? He wouldn't give us an answer. And so we got no actually consistent argument from him because he doesn't think the Bible should determine it, even though he thinks the Bible is pro abortion. But then he wouldn't give any sense science because, I mean, at the end of the day, we all know you don't have to be a Christian to know that killing babies is wrong. It's also a biological fact. The Bible and biology are on the same page. That is a human life. And so he still couldn't give any evidence on his side, even from the atheist point of view. Neither of them could. And so whether you're pro, whether you're a Christian or atheist watching this debate, it was ridiculous. There was no evidence for the pro abortion side.
- [71:01]
A
Yeah, no, I just, it was funny because I was stressed out going to this debate because as I was saying earlier, there's so much going on. And you were like, don't worry about Kristen. It's going to be easy. I was like, well, I mean, this guy is like a doctor. He's a, you know, a pastor. This is going to be hard. I've never claimed to be a pastor.
- [71:16]
B
Right.
- [71:17]
A
Like, I was, like, worried. And you're. I mean, and I just. And this is what I tell our students all the time. I don't know why I take my own advice. It's like, it doesn't matter where you're debating abortion. I could be at Harvard Law. I could be at a high school. I could be on Twitter with a moron. Like, it doesn't matter. The arguments for abortion are always the same. It doesn't matter what the academic level or the title the person uses. There's no new argument for abortion. The arguments are always the same. They always have to fundamentally deny what science always proves. And so I think as pro life advocates, as you, as a pro life advocate who's watching this podcast, who sat through this entire thing, what I want you to take away from this is you don't have to be afraid to engage in the debate.
- [72:06]
B
Right.
- [72:06]
A
Because the arguments are always the same. And it always comes down to what is it? That's what the argument comes down to. Is what is it? Because if abortion is nothing, if it's a removal of some meaningless clump of cells, there is no argument you need to justify abortion. But if it's not just a meaningless clump of cells and in fact is a unique human life, who's unrepeatable, has never existed before, who's made in the image of our God, there is no justification you can give that would say this is morally acceptable. And you have that truth as a pro life advocate on your side. So you don't have to be afraid. Lydia and I debated these people for you to prove to you you do not have to be afraid.
- [72:46]
B
Yes, absolutely. Have your debates, whether it's in the comment section on Tick Tock or it's on your campus, it is really basic biology. I mean we learned it in middle school. It is a human life. It's undeniable. There is zero evidence on the pro abortion side. And I mean it's, it follows the same patterns of discrimination throughout history, throughout every single human rights abuse. And so once you call that out, they really have nothing on their side against, besides all these lines. Oh, oh, it's when the baby can feel pain. Oh, it's when the baby's viable. Oh, it's, it's when the baby can survive, take their first breath. As Caleb liked to say, it's all ridiculous, it's all just ambiguous and it's, it's not based on evidence. And so we hope that this encouraged you to have your debates to keep changing minds. This debate changed at least one mind, so that means it's worth it. So you guys keep up the good work as well.
- [73:33]
A
Changing and we'll put the full debate. Producer John will put the full debate in the show notes or whatever so you guys can find it. But the full debate is on students for life's YouTube where you can watch the entire two hour long fun fest if you will, or otherwise known as the abortion Debate Showdown. Thank you all for this discussion and tuning in to hear Lydia and I talk about this today. Today and kind of go back. I literally forgot half of those clips that even happened. Lydia, make sure we do this again next year.
- [74:03]
B
Oh, I will, I will. I'm excited about it. Thank you, Kristen.
- [74:06]
A
This episode is brought to you by the Pro lifegen shop and our brand new hot off the press Planned Parenthood tears mug. This is a custom Kristin Hawkins designed mug that I specifically requested because I have been waiting for a long, long time for Planned Parenthood to be funded. So for $10, actually $9.99. You can get your Planned Parenthood to Yours mug. So just go to shop.prolifegen.org and get your mug today and you can sip your coffee or energy drink in my case in a brand new mug celebrating the fact that we finally defunded Planned Parenthood because of you and I thank you all for joining me in today's episode of the Kristin Hawkins Show. Make sure you subscribe and follow for more discussions like this. If you want to hear from me daily on Pro Life news that I think you need to know and take action on, you can join my personal text line by Texting my name Kristin 253445. You can also join and follow along in some of my discussions on my substack, which is relatively new. You go to substack.com hristenhawkins the only magic is you need to spell my name correctly. K R I S T A N and you can listen in and comment on the discussions I'm having there in substack and also join us on the text line until next week. Bye everyone.