Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (1:44)

You know, the arguments of people like Yakowski and Max Tegmark, Conor leahy, like on YouTube, for example.

Matt Kobo (1:51)

But when we got to the subject of the possible use of violence to stop AI, when I asked him about the views that he'd shared online and what links he was willing to go through to stop what he believed might lead to human extinction. Do you think that if. If we continue to see the industry move in the direction it's moving now that by whatever means necessary, we have to stop the extinction of the human race, he paused.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (2:21)

I'll see no comment.

Matt Kobo (2:23)

And he eventually seemed to back away from some of the sentiments that he'd shared online. So you don't really think it would be wise for someone to, let's say, kill Sam Altman?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (2:35)

Um, no.

Matt Kobo (2:41)

But then came Friday, April 10th. Scary Friday morning for OpenAI CEO Sam Altman and his employees after the disturbing firebomb attack in San Francisco, authorities say targeting the home of OpenAI and AI CEO Sam Altman, one of the leaders in artificial intelligence. At around 3:30 in the morning in a quiet neighborhood in San Francisco, home security cameras caught a young man throwing a Molotov cocktail at the home of Sam Altman. A few hours later, what appeared to be the same young man then attacked OpenAI's headquarters. When security guards approached him, he allegedly pulled out a jug of kerosene and and said that he had come to burn the building to the ground and kill anyone who was inside.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (3:28)

We're learning more about that suspect, as

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (3:30)

you said, arrested here in the vicinity

Eliezer Yudkowsky (3:32)

of OpenAI's headquarters, reportedly making threats to try to burn the building down.

Matt Kobo (3:37)

And when the local authorities released the name of the man that they had arrested, investigators identify him as Daniel Marino, gamma, and were holding as a suspect

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (3:46)

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama. Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama in custody.

Matt Kobo (3:50)

After a while, I was like, holy, That's Dan.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (3:56)

I want to start by saying I don't believe I'm a violent person. I don't. I would normally only advocate for violence as the absolute final. Like, I don't want to say final solution, but, you know, the final. You know, final. Okay. You get what I'm saying? Okay.

Matt Kobo (4:17)

The FBI released a statement saying that it appeared Dan had a much larger plan and was carrying something of a manifesto. Sources tell me the suspect was driven by strong anti AI views. When he was arrested in San Francisco, he was carrying a manifesto that includes a list of names and addresses of other AI CEOs and investors, in addition to the names and addresses of several leaders and board members. In the world of AI, he had also allegedly written, quote, if I'm going to advocate for others to kill and commit crimes, then I must lead by example and show that I am fully sincere in my message. I'm Andy Mills, and you're listening to the Last Invention. And in light of this recent attack, as well as the growing number of threats to those building AGI, to lawmakers who are voting on data centers, we wanted to share our interview with Dan. Right Now, Dan is 20 years old. He's being held in custody without bail and has been charged with 13 felonies, including attempted murder. But back in January, he was still only 19, and as you'll hear, still unsure of how far he and others should go in, in their belief that creating AGI may lead to human extinction. As far as I'm aware this is the only recorded interview with Daniel Marinagama. When is the first time you have any memory of hearing about artificial intelligence?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (6:00)

When ChatGPT came out and, you know, at first I thought it was the greatest thing on earth. I thought, this is awesome. I get to basically cheat on everything because I wasn't thinking about the repercussions that might have on learning at the time. I was just a sophomore when ChatGPT came out.

Matt Kobo (6:19)

So you were in high school and you thought, oh, this is gonna really make my homework easier.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (6:23)

Yeah, but at the same time, I guess I was a bit more curious to what actually is this? And so I kind of started looking a bit more into it and that's. I can't exactly remember the first video I came across, but probably it was Yudkowski. I imagine the basic description I would

Eliezer Yudkowsky (6:41)

give to the current scenario is if anyone builds it, everyone dies.

Matt Kobo (6:45)

Alisa Yudkowski is a notable member of the group of AI commentators adamant in their belief that there's very little hope for humanity's survival short of brute force intervention.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (6:54)

What really got me into it was the arguments of people like Yakovsky.

Matt Kobo (6:59)

Please welcome Eliezer Yudhikowski.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (7:01)

In my opinion, Aliezer is the most important thinker of our time.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (7:05)

I expect an actually smarter and uncaring entity will figure out strategies and technologies that can kill us.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (7:11)

Don't listen to this episode if you're not ready for an existential crisis.

Matt Kobo (7:15)

And when you came across videos from people like Eliezer Yudkowsky, did you immediately think like, wow, this guy's right.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (7:21)

Well, I don't think many people would want to believe what Yudkowski is saying.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (7:28)

The AI doesn't hate you. Neither does it love you, and you're made of atoms that it can use for something else. That's all there is to it in the end.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (7:35)

But, you know, as I kept watching

Eliezer Yudkowsky (7:37)

it, I am worried about the AI that is smarter than us. I'm worried about the AI that is good enough at AI research to build the AI that builds the AI that is smarter than us and kills everyone.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (7:49)

It was a mix of, you know, scary but very interesting.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (7:52)

There's no fire alarm for artificial general intelligence.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (7:56)

I've always liked watching debates, so I was like, okay, I hope he's kind of wrong. But over time, I realized very few of his main criticisms ever got refuted or rebuttaled in a proper way. I think. And that made me think, okay, this merits a similarly simple, solid counter argument. But I just never saw that. I saw a Lot of the counter arguments from, I guess the accelerationist side seemed to be very, like, fallacious. They never wanted to engage with his core arguments. And that made me realize that, you know, I should probably do something to get what he's saying out there more, get it to be part of the public conscious a little bit more than it is currently.

Matt Kobo (8:44)

What form did that take? You getting into the comment section on YouTube videos? Is that kind of step one?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (8:49)

That was step one, yeah. Then probably talking to my parents about it, strangely enough, talking to people in my life about it being like, hey, did you know this technology is kind of strange? Like, we don't really understand what's going on about it and all that. That didn't go too well. I kind of became a bit, like, annoying, a little bit autistic about that. So my mom kind of recommended, hey, maybe you should join an organization or something. I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. So I did that with pause AI in 2024.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (9:28)

All right, well, a global call to stop artificial intelligence in its tracks.

Matt Kobo (9:34)

OpenAI. The protesters are demanding that OpenAI be shut down and that the government permanently ban the development of artificial general intelligence, or AGI. Stop AI. Stop AI.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (9:48)

Stop AI.

Matt Kobo (9:50)

Do you at this point consider yourself an anti AI activist? Is that the right language we should use to describe you?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (9:58)

No, I think AI is too broad of a concept. I would say I'm an AI safetyist. I'm against general intelligence.

Matt Kobo (10:06)

You're saying that you're fine with, like, chatbots. You're even fine with, you know, maybe what DeepMind is up to with AlphaFold and trying to do scientific discoveries. What you're worried about is trying to actually create something more like a digital species. This, this AGI dream. That's the thing you're worried about?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (10:26)

Yes, absolutely.

Matt Kobo (10:27)

And primarily is your fear that it's going to disrupt the economy, that it's going to lead to some kind of AI dictatorship when one person or company has too much control. Or like Nate Soares and Eleazar Yudkowski, are you concerned that this. In short, if anyone builds it, everyone dies?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (10:49)

Yeah, I would say definitely the latter. And if most people were as educated as me on this topic, they knew the amount of information, the amount of statistics I knew, they would probably lean towards my position pretty heavily. I'm guessing, like, if there was a bridge where the engineer said there's a 25% chance that it collapses, most people probably wouldn't take that. And I think the Doomers, right, I think they're actually A lot more populist and Democratic than people would make them out to be. I find that a lot of the accelerationists tend to be almost anti democratic. They often talk about like how it's going to make the lives of people better, but they'll never seem to really dive deep into like the arguments about like these people didn't consent for that, they didn't vote for that. You wouldn't give them an option to vote for that because we know who would win.

Matt Kobo (11:41)

But what do you make of the argument that I've heard from several accelerationists in the past that you know, it was not up to a vote whether Gutenberg should make his printing press? Right, right. It's not up to the populace to decide if Edison makes the light bulb. That's just not how the real world works. And so why would this be any different?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (12:03)

Yeah, I think the difference is Edison and Gutenberg and say there was a one in four chance everybody dies because I made this invention. You know, the light bulb is just a different type of invention than what is essentially an autonomous species. This is less like the light bulb and more like the Manhattan Project, like nuclear weapons.

Matt Kobo (12:23)

And if there is truly an existential risk that if the OpenAI's, if the DeepMinds, if the X AIs, if these big companies actually are going to make AGI, how great of a threat do you think that poses and what kind of response should we be willing to make to mitigate that risk?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (12:53)

Well, what response? I think we need policy. 100%. We need policy to ensure that this technology gets regulated on how big data centers can get. Like maybe putting a moratorium or a cap on the construction of new data centers. I feel like we have regulated technology before so there's no reason why we couldn't take it for artificial intelligence.

Matt Kobo (13:17)

Just to put my cards on the table here, you know, I'm working on a story about political violence and I want to understand just personally for you, if this technology really poses an existential threat and right now lawmakers are not motivated to heavily regulate it, what do you think we should be willing to do to ensure that this technology that you believe is going to lead to the likely extinction of the human race doesn't get made and doesn't get released.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (13:53)

Well, first I think before we even think about violence, we need to exhaust all our peaceful means. First I think protesting, I think sharing information. I think that needs to come way before we even consider that.

Matt Kobo (14:07)

But is it on the table? Do you think that if, if we continue to see the industry move in the direction it's moving now that by whatever means necessary, we have to stop the extinction of the human race.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (14:22)

Hmm. I'll see. No comment.

Matt Kobo (14:28)

But is it true that you have online at times at least toyed with the idea of advocating violence against the leaders in these tech companies? I think my producer said something about a post about Luigi Ing some of these CEOs.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (14:45)

Right. I mean, it was kind of. It shouldn't be taken too literally. I mean, people kind of say that all the time. I didn't really mean that as a threat or anything.

Matt Kobo (14:57)

You were essentially being provocative.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (14:59)

Yes, that's kind of my idea. I'd rather be provocative with my statements than actually promote something like that.

Matt Kobo (15:08)

So you don't really think it would be wise for someone to, let's say, kill Sam Altman?

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (15:17)

No. I mean, I think these people, they have unlimited resources. One person is not really going to do that much of a dentist. I understand the frustration with a person who might advocate for that, but it's not practical. It's not worth it. You know, it's almost all risk, no reward. So people may feel that way, but I don't know. Not too many people would do it. Foreign.

Matt Kobo (16:01)

My name is Matt Kobo.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (16:03)

I serve as the acting Special Agent Charge for San Francisco FBI. Today's charges outline a dangerous and deliberate

Matt Kobo (16:12)

plan to bring violence into San Francisco.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (16:17)

This was not spontaneous. This was planned, targeted, and extremely serious.

Matt Kobo (16:33)

Daniel's parents did not respond to my request for an interview, but released a statement saying that their son was, quote, a loving person who has been suffering recently from a mental illness. But according to law enforcement. In Daniel's three part manifesto, he makes clear that based on his belief in humanity's impending extinction, Daniel had not only planned this attack on Sam Altman, but was also attempting to inspire others to attack and kill the leaders of the Frontier AI labs he allegedly supplied their names and home addresses. Daniel also allegedly included a personal note to Sam Altman that read, if by some miracle you live, then I want you to take this as a sign from the divine to redeem your life. In the last few days, many prominent AI safety organizations like PAWS, AI and figures like Eleazar Yudkowsky have released statements strongly condemning this attack and saying that impressionable young people should not follow Dan's lead. But online, several anonymous users and places like Reddit have already begun to compare Dan to Luigi Mangione, including calls that someone should finish what he started. This reporting is a part of our ongoing coverage of the AI race and the debate around it.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (18:05)

There is a longer term existential threat that will arise when we create digital beings that are more intelligent than ourselves. We have no idea whether we can

Matt Kobo (18:15)

stay in control to hear the backstory of this moment we're in, including the views of the accelerationists. This really will be a world of abundance. The AI Doomers I was selling AI as a great thing for decades and I was wrong.

Daniel Alejandro Moreno Gama (18:33)

I was wrong.

Matt Kobo (18:34)

We'd recommend going back and starting at episode one of our eight part series, we're going to continue to cover this story as well as the ongoing developments around the AI revolution. This podcast is produced by Longview. If you'd like to drop us a line or send us a tip, you can reach us at helloongview Report. To leave a comment or subscribe to our newsletter, visit us on our substack or you can become a subscriber and support Our reporting links are in the Show Notes. Thank you for listening and we'll be back soon.

Eliezer Yudkowsky (19:19)

Hello everyone, this is Matt, co founder here at Longview, where we report stories that are grounded in curiosity and context, not political bias. As we say, it's not the left view, not the right view, but the long view. One way we sustain this business is by advertising, but we are also listener supported and if you would like to go ad free and support us at any dollar amount that you'd like, you can do that by clicking on the link in our show notes or by going to longviewinvestigations.com until then, here is a brief message from our sponsor. The last invention is brought to you by Quint. Every spring I feel the same urge to clean things out. Closets, habits, routines. And with clothes, I keep coming back to the same idea. Fewer of them, but better quality. That's what I like about quints. The materials feel elevated and the cuts are clean. And the prices, they aren't insane. They make everyday staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen and this incredibly soft flow knit fabric for their activewear. The kind of gear you end up wearing way beyond the gym. What surprised me most is the pricing. It's about 50 to 60% less than what you'd expect from comparable brands. And that's because Quint goes straight to the source, working directly with ethical factories and skipping the middlemen so you're actually paying for the quality itself instead of the markup. My favorite piece these days is one of their blue chore jackets. It fits great, it's really comfortable and and I know it'll hold up. Even though I wear it all the time. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince. Com lastinvention for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Again, go to Q U I N C E. Com lastinvention.