Ali Velshi: We’re seeing a politically weak Trump throw the authoritarian spaghetti at the wall

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: Ali Velshi: We’re Seeing a Politically Weak Trump Throw the Authoritarian Spaghetti at the Wall
Date: October 11, 2025
Host: Ali Velshi (guest hosting for Lawrence O'Donnell)

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Brief Overview

In this episode, Ali Velshi delves deeply into the current state of American democracy under the Trump administration, focusing on the president's escalating use of authoritarian tactics amid political weakness. The show analyzes headline events, Trump’s threats and actions—from invoking the Insurrection Act to ICE raids and targeting political opponents—and the broader implications for democracy, minority communities, and public sector workers. Through expert discussions and legislative voices, Velshi explores how these maneuvers are less a sign of strength and more symptomatic of political vulnerability and fear.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Authoritarian Tactics and Chaos as Strategy

(00:47–08:30)

• Velshi paints a picture of a fear-driven White House, listing Trump’s threats to Democratic cities, calls for jailing opponents, targeting of figures like FBI Director James Comey and NY Attorney General Letitia James, and ICE raids.
• The aim is to instill a sense of powerlessness:

  “They want you to see all of this and feel powerless.” (03:00, Velshi)

• The administration’s use of official federal social media accounts for partisan attacks is flagged as potential Hatch Act violations.
• Trump’s tactics—distortion of reality (e.g., exaggerated claims about violence in cities), overuse of National Guard deployments, and divisive rhetoric—are depicted as attempts to create chaos and sow dissent.
• These are not actions of confident leaders:

  “Politically strong leaders do not have to dominate and demand fealty or use the military to coerce their own citizens. These are the actions of a politically weak and increasingly unpopular president.” (05:28, Velshi)

2. Erosion of Norms and Targeting of Political Opponents

(08:36–12:01)

• Velshi reviews a Senate Judiciary hearing where Attorney General Pam Bondi dodges questions about alleged FBI payments to Trump's “border czar”, Tom Homan. Bondi’s stonewalling escalates tensions:

  “You’re not watching a politically strong Donald Trump. You’re seeing a Donald Trump who cannot lie his way out of the crisis.” (07:53, Velshi)

• He frames these scandals (including the handling of Jeffrey Epstein files) as distractions from Trump’s economic and healthcare failures.

3. Fear as a Tool, Weakness as Motivation

(12:01–12:43)

• Cites both Professor Timothy Snyder and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on the dynamic of authoritarianism:

  “Laugh at them. Make them small…their whole political identity is about this forced supremacy that is based on nothing, because they feel and know how small they actually are.” (12:01, Ocasio-Cortez)

• Emphasizes that attempts to dominate stem from deep insecurity and political vulnerability.

4. Expert Analysis: Jason Stanley on ‘Autocratic Takeover’

(12:43–17:37)

• Jason Stanley (author, expert on fascism) takes issue with the “throwing spaghetti at the wall” frame, arguing instead:

  “I believe that this right now is the autocratic takeover...They have shifted from soft propaganda to hard propaganda...The Democrats are terrorists—an existential threat to the nation.” (13:56, Stanley)

• He notes the administration’s strategy is not about persuasion but about delegitimizing all opposition, mirroring classic autocratic moves.
• Velshi and Stanley discuss the lack of evidence or transparency in Trump’s military actions (e.g., boat bombings), noting the administration responds to oversight as if Congress were an enemy, not an equal branch.

5. The Insurrection Act and Militarization of Politics

(17:37–26:22)

• Trump openly discusses the potential use of the Insurrection Act to deploy troops domestically, allegedly to “keep cities safe”—a significant historical escalation.

  “If people were being killed and courts were holding us up, or governors, or mayors were holding us up, sure, I’d do that.” (18:41, Trump quote)

• Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker and former Labor Secretary Robert Reich argue this is a deliberate effort to provoke violence and lay groundwork to suppress Democratic cities—potentially to depress voter turnout in 2026 midterms.

  “They’re confrontation hunting. They are looking for any reason...they think that will be the justification for the Insurrection Act.” (22:33, Reich)

• Reich warns not to fall into the administration’s narrative trap by resorting to violence during protests.

6. Shutdown, Epstein Files, and Targeting Federal Workers

(28:12–36:41)

• Russell Vogt, OMB/Project 2025 architect, announces mass firings of federal workers during the shutdown, especially in agencies with large minority workforces.
• The shutdown also blocks a vote to release the Epstein files; Congresswoman Robson and bipartisan lawmakers are frustrated at the manipulation.
• Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy explains efforts to get Epstein-related documents, highlighting rare bipartisan concern and the impact on workers and the pursuit of justice:

  “This shutdown allows them to shut down this inquiry, and we can’t let that happen...Bad economy, a softening economy, and these Epstein files, which are dogging him at this point.” (33:52, Krishnamoorthy)

7. Pattern of Targeting Black Women and Minority Federal Workers

(37:56–45:28)

• Dr. Carla Hayden (former Librarian of Congress) and other Black women in government are systematically removed or marginalized under this administration.
• The New York Times reports that agencies with high proportions of minority workers are hardest hit by workforce reductions; black women are particularly impacted.
• Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley and journalist Erin Haynes discuss the chilling effect on black women’s economic and civic participation:

  “We are the backbones of our families, our communities, and this country.” (40:51, Pressley) "These black women in the public sector who are being targeted are part of the larger racial playbook...and the message it sends is chilling." (41:32, Haynes)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They want you to see all of this and feel powerless.”
  (03:00, Ali Velshi)

• “Politically strong leaders do not have to dominate and demand fealty or use the military to coerce their own citizens...These are the actions of a politically weak and increasingly unpopular president.”
  (05:28, Ali Velshi)

• “You’re not watching a politically strong Donald Trump. You’re seeing a Donald Trump who cannot lie his way out of the crisis.”
  (07:53, Ali Velshi)

• “When we obey in advance, we invite the weak man to take power over our souls, which then means power over our politics.”
  (11:34, Timothy Snyder, quoted by Velshi)

• “Laugh at them. Make them small...that is what their whole political identity is all about...forced supremacy that is based on nothing, because they feel and know how small they actually are.”
  (12:01, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez)

• “This right now is the autocratic takeover. They have shifted from soft propaganda to hard propaganda...Democrats are terrorists...an existential threat to the nation.”
  (13:56, Jason Stanley)

• “If people were being killed and courts were holding us up, or governors, or mayors were holding us up, sure, I’d do that.”
  (18:41, Donald Trump on invoking the Insurrection Act)

• “What Donald Trump really is doing is laying a foundation for troops being on the streets in Democratic cities to reduce the turnout in the 2026 midterms.”
  (23:14, Robert Reich)

• “We are the backbones of our families, our communities and this country.”
  (40:51, Rep. Ayanna Pressley)

• “Black women in the public sector who are being targeted are part of the larger racial playbook that the president has been using.”
  (41:32, Erin Haynes)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Trump’s Authoritarian Moves & Chaos Creation: 02:00–08:30
• Pam Bondi, Congress, and the FBI Cash Scandal: 08:36–12:01
• Ocasio-Cortez and Snyder on Authoritarianism: 11:34–12:43
• Jason Stanley Interview: 12:43–17:37
• Insurrection Act and Militarization (Trump, Pritzker, Reich): 17:37–26:22
• Epstein Files, Shutdown, and Federal Worker Layoffs: 28:12–36:41
• Systematic Targeting of Black Women/Minority Workers: 37:56–45:28

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Conclusion

Velshi’s episode offers a sobering, detailed account of the Trump administration's shift towards open authoritarianism, arguing it’s grounded more in vulnerability than in power. With input from historians, lawmakers, and journalists, the episode warns of the dangers posed by normalized executive overreach, targeted firing of minority workers, stoking of racial division, and the strategic use of chaos. At each turn, it urges listeners to see these actions not as proof of inevitable Trumpian victory, but as signals of underlying weakness— and to resist succumbing to fear, cynicism or resignation.

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Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Hey, Ali, at least you said that the Tylenol that the president can say because he has trouble with the other.

[C]

Acetaminophen.

[A]

Acetaminophen.

[C]

We'll just say it over and over again.

[A]

Keep on saying it. I. In case my doctor is watching. I love my doctor, but I want his doctor because the stuff that the says about Donald Trump, like, my doctor says, hey, you're looking good, you're fit. You seem to be okay. Cholesterol, you know, whatever. Like, his doctor says magical stuff about him.

[C]

I mean, listen, Ali, you are a very handsome and smart man, but your doctor, if it was his doctor, would be like, you are built like the rock.

[A]

Right. It's amazing.

[C]

That's the kind of thing.

[A]

Yeah. I would take a video next time I go to my doctor and say, hey, say stuff like this to me. By the way, I, you know, I remember from the days when you were the press secretary how you used to engage all comers. Right. You would go. And you sort of seem to enjoy the discussion. The Pam Monty stuff was wild. Like, there were moments where she just didn't answer specific questions. When asked about Tom holman, where the $50,000 is that the FBI apparently gave him. Just they said, are you impugning Tom Homan's. No, we just want to know where the 50,000 taxpayer dollars are. I just want to actually know where they are, who kept it. Like, there's got to be an answer.

[C]

To that simple question. And she not only didn't answer it, she had the binder.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

She paused. She looked in the binder and said, I would refer you to the FBI.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Like, and then she had a binder of attacks for each of the senators.

[A]

It's. There was that. It was something to watch you. Have yourself a great week. I'm going to see you tomorrow.

[C]

Yeah, I'll see you tomorrow. Tomorrow.

[A]

That's exciting. I'm looking forward to that at live 25. Thank you, my friend. Have a good show, Alex. All right. And good evening to you all out there. How are you doing? It's a question I'm reluctant to ask because for a lot of people, there's no good answer to that. This has been a deeply unsettling week of headlines in America. Here's just a Trump's threat to invoke Insurrection act escalates showdown with Democratic cities. Trump calls for jailing of Chicago Mayor and Illinois governor New York Attorney General Letitia James indicted after Trump's pressure campaign. National Guard troops seen on Memphis streets as Trump faces legal challenges. What you have to remember is that if you're not a part of the red hat wearing MAGA movement, Donald Trump and the sycophants debasing themselves by doing his bidding, they want you to feel fear in the pit of your stomach. They want you to see Trump going after his political enemies like former FBI Director James Comey and the current New York state Attorney General, Letitia James. They want you to see him sending National Guard troops into American cities. They want you to see raids by ICE agents, a government shutdown, even childish trolling behavior like Donald Trump 2028 hats appearing on the Resolute desk in the Oval Office during a meeting that Donald Trump had with Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries. They want you to see all of this and feel powerless. And on the retribution campaign, Trump is apparently not done. MSNBC's Ken Delaney and Carol Leonig broke more news today. The acting U.S. attorney in Maryland is moving forward quickly to seek criminal charges against this man, President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, John Bolton, according to two people familiar with the case. This is the kind of behavior from an administration that was once unthinkable. But under this president, it's an everyday occurrence. And that too is part of the bury you in the chaos. We've seen this administration using official government social media accounts, take their racist, callow, mean spirited attacks against Democrats to a new level. The New York Times lays this out in a new report, quote, those anti Democratic Party postings and others on different government websites have have been sharply criticized as potential violations of the Hatch act, which prohibits the federal workforce from engaging in political activity on the job. Official social media feeds are manned by federal employees and thus are paid for by taxpayers. In a statement, Abigail Jackson A White House spokeswoman says that the success of the White House's social media pages speak for itself. And then there's the ethos of this White House. It's okay to break norms, potentially to even break laws, if they think that the ends justify the means. Create chaos, sow dissent. Trump 2.0 is all about divide and conquer. It's a strategy that's easy to rely on if you don't actually care about the truth. Take the president's roundtable on Antifa. Earlier this week, speaking about Portland, Oregon, Trump said the city is on fire, bombed out. Quote, you see fights. It's just violence. It's just so crazy. End quote. Yeah, it's crazy because it's completely made up. Are there protests against ICE in Portland? Sure. It's a city with a long, long history of protest. People in Portland are actually very proud of that history. Is the city on fire and filled with violence? Of course not. During that same meeting, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem compared antifa, which isn't a thing. It has no address, it has no leaders. It has no postbox. It is a loose and leaderless affiliation that is shorthand for anti fascist. He compared it with Kristi Noem, compared it with the likes of isis, Hezbollah, and Hamas, all of which have actually been governing entities with control over geographic areas. It doesn't seem to matter to them that none of this Antifa nonsense is true. It doesn't matter because the lies work so much better when you want to send more National Guard troops into more American cities, even when officials in those cities say they neither want nor need those troops. Doesn't even matter that two Republican governors in both Oklahoma and Vermont are criticizing Trump, calling out these deployments as a clear cut overreach by the federal government. So why is Trump doing all of this? It's not coming from a place of political strength. Politically strong leaders do not have to dominate and demand fealty or use the military to try and coerce their own citizens. These are the actions of a politically weak and increasingly unpopular president, a Donald Trump, who's broken the economy with an asinine and disastrous tariff policy, including a new threat today of a 100% tariff on China. And Trump's losing the messaging battle on the shutdown, specifically the Obamacare subsidies that he and many Republicans are trying to torch in the process. Just listen to. We don't normally quote her on this show, but just listen to what Marjorie Taylor Greene told CNN about that.

[C]

We track all the calls that come into my office about 60% of the calls coming in right now are calls of support and saying, yes, health insurance is a crisis. They're telling us stories about how they're already paying $2,000 a month with $10,000 deductibles. I'm getting phone calls from people that are saying if the ACA tax credits expire, they aren't going to be able to have health insurance. They're going to have to drop it. But I'm hearing from people on both sides, people already on the ACA and people that are already getting crushed by high health insurance premiums.

[A]

Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[B]

Hmm.

[A]

You're not watching a politically strong Donald Trump. You're seeing a Donald Trump who cannot lie his way out of the crisis that he's created for himself on the economy and healthcare. A Donald Trump who cannot make the scandal over the Jeffrey Epstein files disappear. A Donald Trump who must also contend with the scandal involving $50,000 that FBI agents put into a paper bag and gave to Trump's so called border czar, Tom Homan. The story first reported by msnbc. When faced with the reality of the Epstein and Homan scandals during a Senate Judiciary hearing this week, Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi could only attack Democrats or sit in silence. Is there a tape that has audio.

[B]

And video of the transfer of the 50,000?

[C]

You would have to talk to Director Patel about that.

[B]

No, I'm talking to you.

[C]

I don't know the answer, Senator.

[A]

You do know the answer.

[C]

You didn't call me a liar.

[A]

I didn't call you a liar.

[B]

Why don't you know whether there was.

[A]

A tape and video?

[C]

Senator, I believe that was resolved prior to my confirmation as Attorney General.

[A]

Do you think that it is of.

[B]

Public interest for the people to know what happened to the 50 grand that the FBI turned over to Homan?

[C]

Did you hear what I just said? That was resolved prior to my confirmation as Attorney General. That's why I said I would not go.

[A]

It's not resolved.

[B]

There's $50,000. Homan has it or somebody has it. Do you have no interest in knowing where it is?

[C]

You're not going to sit here and slander Tom Homan.

[D]

There's been public reporting that Jeffrey Epstein showed people photos of President Trump with half naked young women. Do you know if the FBI found those photographs in their search of Jeffrey.

[A]

Epstein's safe or premises or otherwise?

[D]

Have you seen any such thing?

[C]

You know, Senator Whitehouse, you sit here and make salacious remarks, once again trying to slander President Trump left and right.

[D]

The Question is, did the FBI find those photographs that have been discussed publicly by a witness who claimed Jeffrey Epstein showed them to him? You don't know anything about that.

[A]

Okay. In Pam Bondi's contemptuous, norm shattering appearance before those senators, you didn't see a Trump administration responding to legitimate questions from senators from a political position, a position of political strength. Fighting with senators, going after rivals with indictments, vindictive ICE raids, flooding city streets with National Guard troops. All of this, this us versus them. You're seeing a president to try and find anything and everything he can use to distract and deflect and divert attention from his mounting failures. Donald Trump is throwing the authoritarian spaghetti at the wall to see what will stick. He wants to see. He wants you to see these things. And if you're not a supporter of his, he wants you to feel fear and feel dread. He wants you to feel like he is all powerful and unstoppable and his success is inevitable. But it's a strategy that only works if we allow perception to become reality. You have to remember that what you're seeing is Donald Trump acting from a place of deep weakness, from a place of his own fear. A fear of your freedom to vote against him and his candidates of choice. A fear of your freedom to dissent and demonstrate against him. A fear of your freedom to organize against his self centered political policies. That's what leaders like Trump fear. In an essay from February of last year titled Beware the Weak Man, Professor Timothy Snyder, a frequent guest of this program and an expert on tyranny and authoritarianism, wrote, quote, when we obey in advance, we invite the weak man to take power over our souls, which then means power over our politics. End quote. Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez had a similar message earlier this week for her supporters during a live stream on Instagram.

[C]

Laugh at them. Make them small. These people do this in order to make themselves feel powerful, because deep, deep, deep down inside, they feel and know how small they are. And in order for a small person to feel big, they have to crush someone else. And like, like that is what their whole political identity is all about. It is about this forced supremacy that is based on nothing, because they feel and know how small they actually are.

[A]

Joining us now, Jason Stanley, professor at the Munk School of Global affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto. He's the author of Erasing History, How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future. Jason, it's good to see you again. Thank you for being with us tonight.

[D]

Thank you for having Me on Holly Jason.

[A]

I want to play something that the speaker, Mike Johnson, said today. On Saturday, there are going to be these no Kings rallies, which by the way, have had remarkable turnout. On the day of the army parade, about a quarter million people showed up to. That they were hoping for a million. There are estimates that it was well over 5 million people who showed up to these parades. Americans of all sorts and stripes. This is what Mike Johnson said about the one that's coming up, this Hate.

[C]

America rally that they have coming up for October 18th.

[A]

The Antifa crowd and the pro Hamas crowd and the Marxists, they're all going to gather on the Mall. We got some House Democrats selling T shirts for this event. It is an outrageous gathering for outrageous purposes. There's a lot of words in there that are really interesting. The antifa crowd. Antifa doesn't. I don't know what he means by that. The pro Hamas crowd, the Marxists. An outrageous gathering for outrageous religious purposes. It's a protest, it's protected. It's a. It's descent. It's what this country was actually founded on.

[D]

Yeah, it's funny, Ali, because I was going to begin with that. I was going to start my remarks with a mark to Mike Johnson comments. So I think I don't agree with your initial analysis that this is throwing spaghetti at the wall. I believe that this right now is the autocratic takeover. So what we're seeing, the Pam Bondi appearance, what we're seeing, it's connected to the disintegration, ignoring the legal demarcation of war powers and the role of Congress in the attack on boats outside Venezuela. All of this is the autocratic takeover. And what we're seeing is we're seeing the administration shift from what's called in the literature soft propaganda to. To hard propaganda. I talk about this in my new substack, front left. Soft propaganda is typical in a democracy. It's sort of, you know, bending facts and, you know, trying to convince people of things. And the media points out that it's wrong and then everyone goes back to arguing again. But they have shifted from this. Now it's all out in the open. The Democrats are terrorists. The Democrats are, you know, are an existential threat to the nation. They're talking about political opponents and indeed Congress and congressional oversight as if they're totally illegitimate. And worse than that, as if they're terrorists. I think what they're going to do is they're going to represent the people who, Democrats who object to the Venezuela illegal Venezuela boat bombings as Also, you know, defenders of drug cartels.

[A]

Right.

[D]

So that's why the media is in this difficult position, because their typical role is to point out that things are false.

[A]

And.

[D]

But that's not what's going on here.

[A]

I mean, I've been a reporter for more than 30 years. Right. When, when police had a drug bust, you would. They put on a table, they put the guns, they'd put the drugs, they'd tell you the names of the people and give you, you know, short of what you do in court, they tell you, who's that? We just keep hearing that. They keep bombing boats. And there are dead drug cartel narco terrorists at the bottom of the ocean. No names, no drugs, no proof, no evidence, no weaponry, nothing. Maybe they are narco terrorists. I don't have any way to know that. That's the problem.

[D]

Yeah. Donald Trump is. What he's doing by these actions is he's really saying, as the commander of the military, he can kill anyone at any time, anywhere. And to let him get away with this is allowing him to do this. And then they're telling Congress. Bondi's appearance in Congress is saying, you can't do anything anymore. There's only one person who rules. Your oversight is over, and we can do whatever we want.

[A]

A United States senator asked Pam Bondi, where's the 50,000 bucks? Right. There's a story that Tom Homan got 50,000 bucks from the FBI. Good taxpayer story, right? I just would like to know, it's my $50,000. It's our taxpayer. Where's the 50,000 bucks? And her answer was, are you impugning the integrity of Tom Homan? It's a United States senator asking the Attorney General a question in Congress.

[D]

What she's really saying is, is that, is that we can do, you're the enemy. We can do anything we want. That is not how you talk to the opposition party in a democracy. That's how you talk to an external enemy. So in a democracy, you don't direct hard propaganda against opposition politicians or indeed any American citizens. So we are no longer living in a democracy. That's what they're trying to tell us. As Donald Trump has very clearly said, the enemy of the United States is within. It's the Democrats.

[A]

I kind of like the throwing authoritarian spaghetti at the wall. I mean, you're the only guy who can make me not say something that I like the line on. Thanks, buddy. I appreciate it. It's always good to see you. Jason Stanley joining us from the University of Toronto. All right. Coming up this week we got new reporting that as he seeks to expand the use of National Guard troops in American cities, Donald Trump is considering invoking the Insurrection Act. What would happen if he did that? And what would that. Would that finally be the line in the sand for this Trump friendly Supreme Court? We'll have more on that next. Earlier this week, from behind the Resolute desk in the Oval Office, Donald Trump said, this Insurrection act, under what conditions.

[C]

Or terms would you?

[A]

Well, I do it if it was necessary.

[E]

So far it hasn't been necessary, but.

[B]

We have an Insurrection act for a reason. If I had to enact it, I'd do that.

[A]

If people were being killed and courts.

[B]

Were holding us up, or governors or.

[E]

Mayors were holding us up, sure, I'd do that.

[A]

I mean, I want to make sure.

[B]

That people aren't killed. We have to make sure that our cities are safe.

[A]

Didn't seem that concerned about that on January 6th. That was Monday, by the way, that he said that. The very same day, Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker, while announcing a lawsuit against the Trump administration's plan plan to send National Guard troops to his state, said this. The Trump administration is following a playbook. Cause chaos, create fear and confusion, make it seem like peaceful protesters are a mob by firing gas pellets and tear gas canisters at them. Why? To create the pretext for invoking the Insurrection act so that he can send military troops to our city. He wants to justify and normalize the presence of armed soldiers under his direct command. Two days later, NBC News released exclusive reporting backing Pritzker's theory. Quote, White House officials have held increasingly serious discussions in recent days about President Donald Trump's invoking the Insurrection Act, a rarely used 19th century law that gives the president the power to deploy active duty troops inside the United States for law enforcement purposes. Five people with knowledge of the talks told NBC News Trump has sought to deploy National Guard troops in several major cities, including Los Angeles, Chicago and Portland, Oregon, saying that they are needed to reduce crime and protect Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials from protesters. Critics have said the Trump administration is exaggerating issues in those cities. A decision to invoke the act is not expected to be imminent, A senior administration official said Were it to happen, it would be a notable escalation. A notable escalation, indeed. The Insurrection act has been invoked 30 times since it became law in 1807. Now, most of those occurrences fell in the first 150 years after it was passed to deal with racial strife and race riots. It's been used. It's been 33 years since the Insurrection act was last used in the United States. And President George H.W. bush invoked it during the 1992 Los Angeles riots after four LAPD oper officers were acquitted in the beating of Rodney King. It was notably not invoked on January 6, 2021, when a mob of Trump supporters stormed the US Capitol. Deaths did result from that. But now we've all seen the videos out of Chicago of protesters clashing with federal agents, some of the scenes becoming violent. Exactly the type of environment that Donald Trump might use to invoke the Insurrection Act. Joining us now is Robert Reich. He served as the Secretary of Labor under President Bill Clinton. He's a professor of public policy at UC Berkeley and a co founder of Inequality Media. Bob, it's great to see you again. Donald Trump and Stephen Miller have been dropping the term insurrection with remarkable regularity. If you ask what the weather is, they'll tell you there's a potential insurrection. There is a reason it hasn't been invoked under this president yet. He tried to do it after the George Floyd protests the last time he was president. He was advised that the courts probably wouldn't allow it to happen. They seem to want to either really get this right, make sure it gets through the court, but they seem to be really thinking about this in the White House, trying to think about a way to get the military into the streets and use them against the enemy within the American people.

[E]

I think that's absolutely right, Ali. And it's frightening. It's unfolding very, very quickly. They're laying the pretext for this. They're trying to provoke violence. And if they provoked enough violence, they think that that will be the justification for the Insurrection Act. And if they get the insurrect, then all of those court challenges disappear because the Insurrection act theoretically gives the president the authority to go in with the troops and create kind of a military state.

[A]

So the point you made that you've written about this week and you've talked about is the same one J.B. pritzker makes, right? And that is that they're confrontation hunting. They are looking for any reason. Donald Trump said in the White House, if people start getting killed, no one's getting killed because of an insurrection today, because there's no insurrection in the United States. But it feels like there's this confrontation that they're looking for as a rationale.

[E]

And remember, they're looking in Democratic cities, cities that have a lot of Democratic voters. This is, in a sense, the prelude to the 2026 midterm elections. I'm not a conspiratorialist.

[A]

You're not at all.

[E]

Yeah, I'm not paranoid, but I sometimes worry that what Donald Trump really is doing is kind of laying a foundation for troops being on the streets in Democratic cities to reduce the turnout in the 2026 midterms.

[A]

No, you're not. You're not at all a conspiracy. I mean, you're fairly mainstream guy. Here's the question. There is a real place in this moment for protest at every level, which may involve running for office, it may involve going to protests. Some people are getting arrested in peaceful protests. But you are like many people warning, don't, don't, don't. Don't cross a line that feeds into their narrative.

[E]

Yeah. Don't fall for it. I mean, what they. Like they're setting a trap. Don't fall for it. Look, I have been telling everybody I know, get out there on October 18th in terms of the, you know, the next no Kings Day demonstrations. But let's just be very, very realistic and very careful because there's a big line, and there should be a line between getting out there and demonstrating and making your voices heard and showing up on the one hand and resorting to violence on the other. And it's very important that we not cross that line, because that crossing that line gives the administration, gives Trump the pretext, gives him the justification for the Insurrection act, for the troops, and then for the. The troops on our city streets during 2026 midterms.

[A]

What you are is a student of history and this business about talking about the enemy within and how I alone can solve it, and that we are protecting you, and we're putting these troops on the street to protect you from. I mean, literally. Portland sounds like it's on fire. Listening to Donald Trump all the time. Chicago sounds like it's. It's on fire. They had, they repelled, they went. Jumped from a helicopter, these federal officials, and rappelled down a building and arrested little children and put them in zip ties. At what point? Jason Stanley just told me we're in it now. Right? There's not gonna be some switch in which we move into authoritarianism. We're in that continuum now. How do you get people to register that this is about them in their lives? This is not an abstraction about anti.

[E]

I think that's the very important and central question, because it is about them. It's about all of us. Because any one of us could be in those apartment buildings or those homes where People are raided in the middle of the night. I mean, many of those people who were raided in Chicago, they were here legally, they were not here illegally. And as you said before, Ali, there's no way of knowing. If the president drops a bomb on a boat and says just alleges that they were doing something nefarious, that they were carrying drugs into the United States, all we have is his word for it. And that means that any one of us is particularly susceptible and vulnerable to him saying, well, you were carrying drugs or you were doing this or you were doing that. So I have a right and my troops have a right to shoot you. This is, this is what people really need to understand. It's not about them being in danger. It's about all of us being in danger.

[A]

Yeah. Robert Reich, good to see you as always. Thank you, sir, for your great work. ROBERT Reich, FORMER United States Department Secretary of Labor all right, coming up in a new letter, Speaker Johnson is being asked point blank, are you keeping the government shut down so you can delay a vote on releasing the Epstein files? And it is not a Democratic lawmaker who's asking that question. It's one of the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's sexual violence, Haley Robson. We'll discuss that. Plus the news that the Trump administration is starting to lay off thousands of federal workers with Congressman Rajakrishnamoorthy. That's next. It's Cybersecurity awareness month and Lifelock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, Lifelock is your best choice. Lifelock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft. Guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected. With a 30 day free trial at lifelock.com specialoffer terms apply. Summer's heating up and so is the action with chumba casino and 2311 racing. Whether you're trackside with Bubba, Riley and Tyler or cooling off at home, the fun never stops at Chumba Casino, the online social casino packed with free to play games like slots, blackjack and more. Jump into [e-mail] and score your free welcome bonus. 2 million free gold coins and 2 free sweeps coins. No purchase necessary. VGW Group void where prohibited by law. CTNC is 21+, sponsored by Chumba Casino.

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[A]

Today, the head of Donald Trump's Office of Management and Budget Project 2025 architect Russell Vogt took to social media to announce the newest phase of this government shutdown, the mass layoffs of federal workers. Not, not furloughs, not temporary. These are layoffs. The White House confirms the layoffs could be in the thousands and plenty of federal workers are still shell shocked by the Doge cuts earlier this year by Donald Trump and Elon Musk. The American Federation of represents thousands of federal workers predicted all of this and filed a motion for a temporary restraining order six days ago. Tonight, the union released this statement, quote, federal workers are tired of being used as pawns for the political and personal gains of the elected and unelected leaders. It's time for Congress to do their jobs and negotiate an end to the shutdown immediately. End quote. The shutdown, now in its 10th day, shows no signs of ending and that's super helpful to Donald Trump because it means there can be no vote on a discharge petition requiring the release of the Epstein files. All 213 House Democrats have signed a petition calling for the release of those files. Four House Republicans have joined them. That gets you to 217, which is one vote shy of the 218 that are needed. And there's one more due to come from the House Representative, the newly elected member Adelita Grijalva. She won an Arizona special election 17 days ago, a seat that was held by her father. But Speaker Johnson is not allowing her to be sworn in. In a letter dated yesterday, Epstein survivor Haley Robson wrote this to Speaker Johnson. Quote, I am writing to you to encourage you to bring the House of Representatives back into session as soon as possible. The Epstein files, as Ms. Pamela Bondi named them, have for some reason become a thorn in everyone's side. But we survivors should be more important. We've been through enough. We came to you and we begged you for help and yet we continue to be re victimized by your lack of action. We learned that another brave WR representative was soon to be sworn in and that we would finally have the votes that we needed to pass the act that we support. We felt like maybe we would even just in this would even just this one small victory. Well, it seems that one small victory won't come for these Epstein survivors anytime soon. Today the Speaker Johnson announced that the House will remain on vacation next week and he cancelled all votes. Now on The Democratic side leader, Hakeem Jeffries told his caucus on a phone call tonight that they should expect to be back in the House by Tuesday. According to Punchbowl, here's Leader Jeffries earlier today.

[D]

Republicans have the House, the Senate, and the presidency.

[A]

They decided to shut the government down.

[D]

Republicans in the House have decided to remain on vacation. Republicans canceled votes last week, they canceled.

[A]

Votes this week, and now they've canceled votes next week. They're not serious about reopening the government. Joining us now is the Democratic Congressman, Raja Krishnamurthy of Illinois. He's a member of both the House Oversight Committee and the House Intelligence Committee. I have so many things to talk to you about, including the, the National Guard and the Insurrection act and Chicago, but I want to talk to you about this. You wrote a letter along with Representative Robert Garcia to Tulsi Gabbard this week asking for the release of the documents, the Epstein documents, by October 21st, in which you say, we write to request documents and information concerning Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and affiliated individuals or entities. As you know, these individuals, their associates and their activities have been subject to intense US Government scrutiny for many years. We are investigating whether your agency may have information in its possession or control that could provide Congress with important insight into the activities of Epstein and his associates. Tell me a little about this.

[B]

Yeah. So now we've heard various allegations that Jeffrey Epstein may have had ties to foreign intelligence agencies. And even the survivors and their attorneys brought various anecdotes that suggested that there needed to be further digging. And so we decided ranking member Garcia and myself to basically contact Tulsi Gabbard and asked for any and all information connect in connection to Epstein's, you know, potential, you know, links to foreign intelligence agencies and any files they have on him.

[A]

You saw the testimony by Pam Bondi. You saw Cash Patel's testimony a few weeks ago. They have a new thing, right? Cabinet secretaries don't actually answer your letters or even congressional testimony under oath.

[B]

Yeah, it's kind of become fashionable in this particular administration. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't stop asking, nor should we stop pressing them for this information. I have to say, some of my colleagues on the other side, I don't normally team up with people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, but she and others have joined with us in jointly asking for many of these documents. And I do think that a lot of, a lot of people out there, whether they're Republicans or Democrats, want to see the files. And by the way, with regard to Ms. Robson, she's a Republican. She voted for Trump. She said this.

[A]

She said that.

[B]

Yeah, at her press conference on Capitol Hill. So we're talking about people from across the spectrum who want to see these files. We got to get them right away.

[A]

In fact, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie, two Republicans, have both said they, they kind of think that, that Mike Johnson not calling the House into session or letting this, your newly elected member from Arizona be sworn in has entirely to do with the release of the Epstein files. Because at that point, you've got the 218 votes. You need to get this discharge position petition.

[B]

Totally. I think this shutdown allows them to shut down this inquiry, and we can't let that happen. We have to continue pressing. Look, at the end of the day, I think that the president is trying to distract attention from the softening of the economy, from the Epstein files, from even his weak position in the shutdown, by doing all kinds of outrageous things like these ice rays in Chicago, calling the National Guard to Chicago and taking other steps which basically get us focused on other matters instead of what's right in front of us, which is a bad economy, a softening economy, as well as these Epstein files, which are dogging him at this point.

[A]

I have to ask you, because you're in the center of all of these issues, including what's going on in Illinois. I was talking to somebody earlier this evening who said, what's the end game here with all of this stuff? I mean, obviously, we've got the Epstein files and we've got Russell Vogt trying to gut the federal government by actually firing people, not furloughing them. What, what does success do you think look like for Donald Trump when all of this happens?

[B]

He thinks that by firing workers illegally, by the way, or doing any of these other things, he is somehow going to pressure Senate Democrats or others to cave and to basically bend to his political will. That's not going to happen. In fact, I think that when I stand with AFGE and these other workers in Chicago, as I did this past week, I think their resolve stiffens in the face of these threats. They actually feel more emboldened to take their position, which is don't surrender to Donald Trump. And so I think that public sentiment is shifting against President Trump. I think that he is under tremendous pressure to do what every reasonable person is asking him to do, which is at least extend these Obamacare premium tax credits. If you don't, and those notices, by the way, are going out in the mail right now, you're going to see premiums explode by 2 and 300% and.

[A]

It will be a catastrophe, including for a lot of people who voted for him, as Marjorie Taylor Greene pointed out. Congressman, always good to see you. Thank you for being with us again. Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy of Illinois. Coming up, when Donald Trump's Justice Department indicted New York Attorney General Letitia James, even the New York Times noticed there are several prominent black women in power on Donald Trump's ever growing list of political adversaries. I'll have more on that next. Tyler Redicure from 2311 Racing. You think racing's tough? Try getting your friends to agree on dinner plans. I'm in. Wait maybe what time again? While they figure that out, I rev up Chumba Casino play on your browser. No downloads necessary. No need to negotiate.

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[A]

The former Librarian of Congress, Dr. Carla Hayden, was fired from her job over the summer. And like many high profile black officials in the federal government, she was replaced by someone who was conservative, male and white. Here's what she told CBS News in June.

[B]

I was never notified beforehand.

[A]

And after. No one's reached out to you from the White House? No one has talked to me directly at all from the White House.

[B]

No one's given you a phone call from the administration?

[A]

No.

[C]

I've received no communication directly.

[A]

Dr. Carla Hayden was the first African American and first woman ever to serve as Librarian of Congress, is one of at least seven black officials that President Trump has fired or attempted to remove, some under the guise of eliminating WOKE policies or dei, others with no reason at all. Trump was recently unable to fire the Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, a move that was blocked by law, but his intent was clear. The Trump Justice Department's indictment of New York Attorney General Letitia James this week is now the latest example of a prominent black woman being targeted by this administration. In a new report, the New York Times detailed how the administration has systematically targeted federal agencies with large black and brown workforces. Quote, black workers, particularly black women, have been hard hit by reductions in the federal workforce overall. According to a New York Times tracker of Mr. Trump's cuts, agencies where racial minorities and women were a majority of the workforce, such as the Education Department and the U.S. agency for International Development, were targeted for the largest workforce reductions or for complete elimination. Black women made up nearly a quarter of the workforce in agencies such as the Internal Revenue Service, which also saw deep reductions, according to a Times analysis. End quote. There it is again that Trump governing philosophy of divide and conquer. Trump and his ilk thrive on an us versus them mentality. The them more often than not are Americans who don't support Donald Trump. Standing against his increasingly authoritarian like schemes. Trump has shown time and again he will not govern for all Americans. And by treating whole communities as enemies, Trump in effect creates a self fulfilling prophecy, deepening that mistrust and then using that as political ammunition. We see this playing out in Los Angeles, in D.C. and in Memphis, where Trump has deployed National Guard troops against the wishes of local Democratic leaders. But there's something else to those cities. They have very large black and brown communities. Here's what Democratic Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley had to say about the growing disparities.

[C]

Since February, nearly 320,000 black women have left the workforce. This is not a coincidence. This is the direct result of Donald Trump's mass federal firing frenzy and his relentless racist attacks on diversity, equity and inclusion.

[A]

Let's be clear.

[C]

Black women are not just workers or numbers on a spreadsheet. We are the backbones of our families, our communities and this country.

[A]

Joining me now is my great friend Aaron Haynes, editor at large at the 19th and an MSNBC political contributor. Aaron, there's, there's so much to unpack here. But what the congresswoman said, 320,000 black women eliminated from the workforce since this president became president. In areas like the Department of Education, the Postal service places where black women went and black people went to be employed because they had worker protections before the private sector did.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. And listen, we know that the public sector has been a pathway to the middle class for so many black people, including black women, many of whom are the sole breadwinners of their households. Right. And certainly these are people who are actively engaged in democracy. We've seen the power of black women at the ballot box. And certainly some people would argue that that power has directly resulted in the backlash that we are seeing now by this administration attacking diversity, equity and inclusion. And when you combine that with his attack on the public sector, what you get is so many of that 320,000 plus and counting. Right. Is going to be black women who are overrepresented in the public sector. And so those black women in the public sector who are being targeted are part of the larger racial playbook that the president has been using to go after black women, whether it is black women in the public sector, black women mayors, black women lawmakers, black women judges. I mean, this is an old playbook for this president, and we're seeing it playing out even now. And the message it sends is chilling. Right. This rise in power, and you become vulnerable in a way that others are not.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And look, not that I agree with it, but I at least understand what the president's animus towards Tish James is. Carla Hayden. Nobody knew this woman from the Fed. Like, literally, it had no. I mean, there are 12 people on the Fed, all of whom don't vote the way Donald Trump wants them to vote in terms of interest rates. But you targeted the black woman. Yes.

[C]

I mean, well, you have to think about Carla Hayden as somebody who was head of the Library of Congress. This is somebody who is shaping our understanding of this country's history. Right. Something that this administration is also targeting this moment, trying to frame history, particularly American history, in a certain way. Somebody like a Carla Hayden can seem to be a threat to that. Tish James is somebody, you know, we know who, you know, prosecuted this president successfully in New York. She has long been kind of on his hit list, on his radar. Lisa Cook at the Fed. Somebody who has spoken out about systemic inequality in this country. Something that this administration is basically saying is a myth that doesn't exist or is a relic of the past that we need to move on from. Right. And so targeting these black women in these positions says that the work that they are doing is not valuable, that they are disposable. Right. That they are not essential parts of the work of this government and this democracy. And that cannot be interpreted based on the pattern as anything other than intentional. Right. It fits a pattern of just kind of using the power of this government to undermine black women in authority.

[A]

Black unemployment is always, there's always a gap between white unemployment and black unemployment or unemployment for all Americans and black Americans. We are now seeing that gap increase again. This is something we've never been able to fix in the history of this country. We always, like, we'd like to think we're getting closer to fixing it. We're actually going in the opposite direction. So black wealth creation, which was not even something you could really start to think about until the 1930s and has been attacked all the way, is now going to recede again. Yeah.

[C]

And I mean, look, we also have to think about, though, Allie, the relationship between black economic participation and the economic participation of black women and their ability to participate in this democracy. Right. Their full participation as citizens, particularly at the voting booth. You have to wonder if a black woman is among these 300,000 and counting. That is having to look for a job, having to focus on how she's going to feed her family, provide health care, raise her children, et cetera. Is she that focused on showing up at the ballot box? And not just that, organizing her community in the way that black women do, being able to donate money to causes that she cares about that may be political like this has an effect also on our politics as well as on that black woman's household and in her immediate family and community.

[A]

Erin, it's always great to see you. Thank you, my friend. I love having you here. Thank you. Erin Haynes, editor at large at the 19th. We'll be right back. Back. Okay. Stay with MSNBC all this weekend for the latest on all of the news that we covered. This hour. Tomorrow on my show Velshi, I'll be joined by Chicago's Democratic mayor, Brandon Johnson to get his reaction to Donald Trump deploying National Guard troops to his city. That's tomorrow, 10am Eastern right here on MSNBC. That is tonight's last word. It's Cybersecurity awareness month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, Lifelock is your best choice. Lifelock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Specialoffer terms apply.