← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Biden warns democracy threatened as Trump returns to White House
00:42:05
Tonight on The Last Word: Key nominees refuse to say if they’ll stand up to Donald Trump. Also, Israel’s cabinet approves the Gaza ceasefire deal. Plus, billionaires cozy up to Trump ahead of his second term. And Minnesota Democrats sue over GOP House control. Jennifer Rubin, David Graham, Noga Tarnopolsky, Bishop William Barber, and Minnesota State Rep. Melissa Hortman join Ali Velshi.
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- [00:00]
Ali Velshi
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- [00:16]
Alex Wagner
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- [00:31]
David Graham
Now it's time for the Last Word with Ali Velshi.
- [00:34]
Alex Wagner
Good evening, Ali. I mean, I have high hopes for what you're gonna be doing. As you can imagine, I'm a little envious. Right. Because I think you and I share this desire to be out there and on the road and talking to people. Well, listen, I just think we gotta be.
- [00:48]
David Graham
I think this is gonna be a very different administration than the first one.
- [00:51]
Alex Wagner
And I think we gotta be as tenacious as hell. Yeah.
- [00:53]
David Graham
In covering it.
- [00:54]
Alex Wagner
And we've gotta be listening to a lot of people. And so I'm looking forward to it. I'm mostly interested in whether you come back with an accent. So I'll be.
- [01:00]
David Graham
It could happen. I listen, there's an overseas component.
- [01:03]
Alex Wagner
You never know. Yep.
- [01:04]
David Graham
Anything could happen, Ali.
- [01:06]
Alex Wagner
It's going to be an important time and we'll be watching you closely. Alex, thank you. Thank you, Ali.
- [01:10]
David Graham
Have a great show.
- [01:10]
Alex Wagner
Thank you. Well, we're now just three days away from the inauguration and the start of Donald Trump's second term. And for those of you who don't plan to attend the inauguration or even watch it, there's a lot to take from that important day. Monday is the start, or the restart, if you will, of a race for the preservation of American democracy. It's truly not a day to be sad that time has passed. It's not a day to look away. What Monday, January 20th is, in addition to being Martin Luther King Jr. Day, is a marker. Think of it as a starting gun in what may turn out to be a long journey. Some say not to think of this as a sprint to the next election, but rather a marathon. But I'm not sure that's right either. Because the thing about a marathon is you always know exactly where you are and how far the end is in the fight for democracy and fairness and justice and equality and liberty, both here in America and elsewhere. We have no idea where we are. We don't know how long it will take. But what we do know is that on Monday, January 20th at noon Eastern, the most important person in the United States of America will be you, the American citizen, the not the American president. In his farewell address to the nation, President Biden tasked the American people to stand in the breach.
- [02:29]
Jennifer Rubin
I still believe in the idea for which this nation stands. A nation where the strengths of our institutions and the character of our people matter and must endure. Now it's your turn to stand guard. May you all be the keeper of the flame. May you keep the faith.
- [02:50]
Alex Wagner
Now it is your turn to stand guard. Donald Trump will be sworn in inside the Capitol rotunda. Four years after inciting his supporters to storm the Capitol to stop the certification of Joe Biden's electoral victory. He'll be sworn in by the Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts, who essentially gave Donald Trump immunity for his efforts to steal that 2020 election that culminated in that attack on the very Capitol in which he will be sworn in as the next President of the United States. So the good news is, if you are in on this idea of holding the line of standing guard, you know exactly what you're up against. This week we watched Trump nominees for key government positions be pressed with questions related to a simple theme. Would they be loyal to the U.S. constitution or to Donald Trump? I will say this wasn't a great week for the Constitution. Today it was Trump's nominee for Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, who couldn't answer that question when asked about disaster relief in blue states. I assume you will agree with me that withholding disaster relief by President Trump or any other chief executive of the United States is a violation of his duty and of law.
- [04:10]
David Graham
Well, Senator, leadership has consequences. And looking at the tragedy that's happening.
- [04:16]
Alex Wagner
In California, I want to ask you, yes or no? With all due respect, on Tuesday, Donald Trump's scandal ridden pick to lead the Department of Defense, Pete Hegseth, would not commit to preventing Donald Trump from using the US Military in unlawful ways. Do you believe there is such a thing as an illegal order that Joe.
- [04:35]
Betsy Stevenson
Biden or any other President Donald Trump could give? Is there anything that, that a Commander in chief could ask you to do.
- [04:41]
Alex Wagner
With the uniform military that would be.
- [04:43]
Betsy Stevenson
In violation of the US Constitution?
- [04:46]
Jennifer Rubin
Senate, Anybody of any party could give an order that is against the Constitution or against the law.
- [04:52]
Alex Wagner
Right. Okay.
- [04:53]
Betsy Stevenson
So, and are you, so are you saying that you would stand in the breach and push back if you were given an illegal order?
- [04:59]
Jennifer Rubin
I start by saying I reject the premise that President.
- [05:01]
Betsy Stevenson
I understand You've done your genuine illegal order.
- [05:04]
Alex Wagner
And Pam Bondi, Trump's pick to be the next Attorney general, could not say that she would not violate her oath to go after Trump's stated enemies.
- [05:15]
Ali Velshi
The President also wants to jail Liz Cheney. Sitting here today, are you aware of any factual basis to investigate Liz Cheney? Yes or no?
- [05:24]
Scott Besant
Senator, that's a hypothetical, and I'm not.
- [05:26]
Alex Wagner
Going to answer that.
- [05:27]
Ali Velshi
No, it's not hypothetical. I'm asking you, sitting here today whether you are aware of a factual predicate to investigate Liz Cheney.
- [05:33]
Alex Wagner
Senator, no one has asked to investigate Liz Cheney. That is a hypothetical.
- [05:37]
Ali Velshi
The President has called for it publicly. You are aware of that, aren't you?
- [05:41]
Scott Besant
No one has asked me to investigate.
- [05:45]
Alex Wagner
So each of those nominees would not say that the U.S. constitution and the rule of law are more important than loyalty to Donald Trump. Donald Trump has effectively used fear to squash any remaining dissent from within Congress to block these terrible picks from being confirmed. When Republican Senator Joni Ernst voiced serious concerns about Pete Hegseth because of the allegations of sexual harassment and, and assault, excessive drunkenness, financial mismanagement, and views degrading women in combat, Trump and his allies exerted a pressure campaign against her. And now guess what? She's supporting Pete Hegseth's nomination. Joni Erst will likely cast the deciding vote on the Armed Services Committee for Pete Hegseth after Donald Trump is sworn in at the Capitol. And by the way, Trump supporting criminals are still being convicted and sentenced for the Capitol attack. In fact, just today, a lawyer for the Oath Keepers was sentenced to a year in prison for her role on January 6th alongside the group's leader, Stuart Rhodes, and later for encouraging the group to destroy evidence in their, of their involvement in the riot. And one of the Capitol rioters who pleaded guilty to assaulting law enforcement, including Officer Michael Fanon on January 6th has been sentenced to 71 months in prison. Here's what Fanon told NBC's Ryan Reilly today about the prospect of Donald Trump pardoning rioters like Louis Wayne Snoots. First, I want to remind the American people that the six people that assaulted me pled guilty. There were no trials. They, you know, whether it was to avoid like a lengthier jail sentence or, you know, whatever, the, whatever motivations, they pled guilty. And if we're to believe Donald Trump four days from now, they're, they're going to be let free. So, you know, to me, that's not, that's not the criminal justice system. I signed up to participate in and dedicate 20 years of my life to in its last piece before the inauguration, the New York Times editorial board warned about the importance of standing up to Donald Trump's efforts to erode institutional norms. Quote, America's leaders and institutions must remain undeterred. If institutions surrender to the fear and coercion by bending the knee or by rationalizing that the next right actions aren't worth the fight, stress or risk, they not only embolden future abuses, they are also complicit in undermining their own power and influence. Complicit in undermining their own power and influence. Joining us now, Jennifer Rubin, co founder and editor in chief of the Contrarian. She's also an MSNBC political analyst and David Graham, staff writer at the Atlantic. Good evening to both of you. Jennifer Rubin, it is the first time I have introduced you as the co founder and editor in chief of the Contrarian. There is a remarkable story behind that that I'd like you to tell us a little about of. But it is your ver of what the New York Times just said. It's your version of we have to do the things we have to do to fight for democracy. Talk to me about it.
- [09:11]
Bishop William J. Barber
Right. I think we're at an inflection point. You've talked about it many times and what we have seen is the capitulation of corporate and billionaire owned media. When you give Donald Trump a million dollars or you settle a frivolous lawsuit for defamation or you go to his inauguration and sit on cheering section, then you have sacrificed your role as the owner of an independent, vibrant free press. We need that now more than ever. And so I, together with Norm Eisen, who I know, you know and has been a good friend of the show, decided to find a way to do this. And we found the Contrarian. It has been a success beyond our wildest imagination. The response has been overwhelming, not just from subscribers, but for writers who want to join us, from other other news organizations who want to partner with us. I think when you give something to the American people that is yes, fact based, but is clear, unequivocal, takes a moral stance, they will respond. And we're also going to be fun and funny and we have everything from cooking to pets to music. We're going to try to do what they used to call in the old days. David will appreciate this. The back of the book in a magazine, which is all the fun stuff that isn't necessarily hard news.
- [10:37]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. Because look, we might be at this for a while. David, you point out this is not always the erosion of democracy does not always happen very quickly. It sometimes doesn't happen very successfully. Sometimes it doesn't happen at all. I am a little surprised at the speed with which institutions and journalistic institutions are bending the knee to Donald Trump. But the point is, it is about senators getting the wrong answer at a confirmation hearing, but putting that aside and still voting for the nominee, it's these little it's death by a thousand cuts and the prevention of it is fighting against those thousand cuts.
- [11:11]
Melissa Hortman
Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I think there's this idea that if we have a functional election or if we have elections, then democracy is still around. But I think what we need to be on guard for is exactly that sort of thing. These are not gotcha questions that you were playing there. These are pretty straightforward, basic questions. And if these nominees are unwilling to voice basic fidelity to fairness in this setting, I don't think we should have a whole lot of hope that they're going to do that in the course of business either when they're under pressure from the president.
- [11:39]
Alex Wagner
Jen, I want to play a portion of Joe Biden's the interview that Joe Biden had with Lawrence O'Donnell in which he talks about the fragility of democracy. And I want to get your take on it. Let's listen together.
- [11:51]
Jennifer Rubin
I really am concerned about how fragile democracy is. That sounds corny, but I mean, I really, really am concerned because you've heard me say it a hundred times. I really think we're at an inflection point in history here. We're unrelated to any particular leader. Things are going to change drastically.
- [12:16]
Alex Wagner
It's interesting because he said to Lawrence, I don't want to sound corny because one who's voting, perhaps for other reasons, might think you guys are overreacting to the democracy thing. Tell me why you think we're not. In other words, how do you emphasize that democracy is the thing we have to fight for while understanding governance needs to take place and people need to be heard and all sorts of other things need to happen?
- [12:38]
Bishop William J. Barber
Well, I think the hearings was a real preview. You have people who will not pledge to abide by the Constitution. That is the telltale sign of an authoritarian regime, that they're responsible to a cult figure and not to any kind of rule of law? We are seeing it and we'll see it for sure on Monday when these executive orders roll out, which we should call, by the way, decree. Because an executive order denounces or denominates something that is legal, something is within the President's power, and many of these will not be. I think you see it in the pronouncements that Donald Trump makes about the upcoming deportations. I think you see it in this campaign of intimidation against Joni Ernst. That is the telltale sign of authoritarianism. I think David is absolutely right. Viktor Orban still has elections. That's not democracy. It's the pretense of democracy. But unless the people are still retaining power, unless you have a free press, unless the other institutions retain their institutional prerogatives, and unless you have an executive who abides by the law, you do not have a democracy. You have a authoritarian regime, or you have, in this case, I think, an oligarchy, because we haven't touched on, frankly, incoming President Elon Musk. But he's really going to have extraordinary power.
- [14:05]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, and I think that's an interesting point, David, that we're jumping right to that. We're getting into a point where people with a great deal of power and influence in this society, including heads of social media companies or major technology companies, are jumping in both feet first. And in many cases, it's a little transparent. Right. They want the ability to merge. They want the ability to not be regulated in the way that they've been threatened with in the past. That's a big deal to ordinary people. It's not front page stuff. We don't talk about antitrust, we don't talk about that sort of thing, but we're watching it happen in real time. We're watching moneyed interests do things that will be in their direct interest and perhaps cost regular people and consumers.
- [14:49]
Melissa Hortman
Yeah, I mean, you know, President Biden is right. And I think often people who warn about this are accused of being histrionic or being corny or whatever. And what we've seen is that consistently, right after those people are derided in the Trump era, something goes on beyond that. So, you know, you think back to the days after the 2020 election when you had people saying, well, come on, it's not like he's gonna launch a coup. It's not like he's gonna try to stay in power. None of that is gonna happen. Of course, that's exactly what happened. And we see that now, you know, after we were told once again what a populist Trump was, we see him turning over many of the levers of the administration to unelected billionaires, turning over access to these billionaires. All of these are happening right afterwards. So every time someone derives the democracy concerns, it feels like Trump validates them.
- [15:34]
Alex Wagner
Jennifer, what's going on in the, in the Republican Party? There were, there are, there remain some pockets of people who are elected who would like this not to be the case. They'd like to not capitulate. They'd like to be able to do their constitutionally appointed duty as senators for approval and consent of nominations. What do they do? What's happening with them?
- [15:54]
Bishop William J. Barber
Well, unfortunately, those people are only saying those things to their spouses and family. They never manage to say them out loud. And moreover, if they do pipe up with some modest kind of criticism, they wind up voting and approving, rubber stamping everything he's doing. So I think the days when we could pretend there's a battle for the soul of the Republican Party or there are ordinary Republicans who don't approve of this, that's gone. They are either capitulators or active enablers. And I don't see a single figure in the Senate or the House that is putting a marker down and saying, this I will not do. I will eat my words if we have Republicans who start voting against these nominees. But I don't think that's going to happen.
- [16:37]
Alex Wagner
And part of that, David, is that I think some of them are trying to decide how much fight they have in them. In other words, it's possible that one nominee may not make it. We still haven't seen the FBI investigation or a lot of depth, depth into Tulsi Gabbard, and she's problematic. Pete Hegseth does look like he's, he's going to get by. We still got Cash Patel to look at. There's a sense that you can't go against Trump too much. So, so most of, he's going to get most of what he wants, if not all of what he wants. Yeah.
- [17:06]
Melissa Hortman
And for years, we've been hearing Republicans saying this. You know, Lindsey Graham was at one time the exemplar. Well, you know, you got to give Trump a little bit. You got to keep your powder dry for the fights that really matter. I want to know when those fights really matter happen, because it seems like we're past that point, and we keep going past that point.
- [17:21]
Alex Wagner
Thanks to both of you for kicking us off tonight. Jennifer Rubin and David Graham. We're going to continue our conversations with both of you about many of the topics that we have we've touched on tonight. Coming up, breaking news from Israel tonight. The Israeli cabinet has approved a ceasefire deal that will begin with a hostage exchange in the final full day of Joe Biden's presidency on Sunday. We will go to Jerusalem for a live report Report.
- [17:48]
Ali Velshi
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- [18:34]
Betsy Stevenson
What is this place?
- [18:36]
Scott Besant
Welcome to Cloud 9. How exactly did I get here? You're a Toyota Crown driver and only Crown drivers ever reach this level of pure bliss.
- [18:44]
Alex Wagner
The captivating Toyota Crown Family Toyota.
- [18:47]
Ali Velshi
Let's go places.
- [18:52]
Alex Wagner
Breaking news tonight, Israel's full cabinet has voted to approve a ceasefire and hostage deal after 15 months of war with Hamas. It's rare for the Israeli cabinet to meet on a Shabbat night, the Jewish day of rest when work is forbidden. But the deal reached would pause fighting between Israel and Hamas for roughly six weeks and would pave the way for the first Israeli hostages being held in Gaza to return home after many months of not having hostages released. Earlier today, Israel published a list of Palestinian prisoners who would also be released in the deal, including 95 Palestinians who are held in Israeli prisons who will be exchanged for 33 Israeli hostages who are held in Gaza. Two American hostages are expected to be released by Hamas in the first phase as well. The first hostages are expected to be released on Sunday. There's still more than 24 hours between now and then. Israel has a full day to permit an appeal of this deal. And the civil defense in Gaza says that in the 48 hours since the cease fire deal was announced on Wednesday, Israeli attacks have intensified with airstrikes killing at least 115 people. Joining us now from Jerusalem is the journalist Noga Tarnopolski. She spent over two decades covering the Israeli Palestinian conflict. She certainly spent the last three years, at least with us, discussing the problems that are going on. And of course we were together on October 7, so it would be something, Noga, if this were to end, or at least be the beginning of the end. I think people are very hopeful, but this being Israel and Palestine, more than 24 hours means things can still go wrong. What, in your opinion, can derail this at this point?
- [20:37]
Scott Besant
It's good to see you, Ali. I think that this part of the deal is done. I would be surprised if anything, it would have to be something very dramatic to derail what's now being planned for Sunday, which is the first part of the first phase of this deal. My understanding is that extraordinary pressure was exerted on Israel by both the outgoing and the incoming American administrations and by Qatar, which is less common because there was one of these last minute attempts to delay this all important cabinet meeting where they had to take a vote using the Sabbath as an excuse. And something interesting happened just a few hours before that cabinet meeting. One of the ultra orthodox members of Netanyahu's government took to the airwaves to really rail and he complained about a smear campaign coming out of the Prime Minister's office trying to blame the ultra orthodox Jews for this delay. And you know, the whole country is so kind of exposed and vulnerable right now that it sort of changed. Just that one interview of him explaining what everybody sort of thought and knew, which is that the Prime Minister was still trying to avoid the final vote for at least a few more hours and he was blaming them. So we're seeing a government in a sort of permanent cat fight and the citizens of the state in many ways and at many levels just being victimized by this again and again. No one worse than the families of the hostages.
- [22:18]
Alex Wagner
What are you hearing people talking about? Because obviously the media landscape in Israel is very robust. What's the feeling in the country right now? Is it hopeful?
- [22:30]
Scott Besant
You know what, it's a great question. Because even in the basically two and a half days since this agreement was made public by the Qatari Prime Minister, Mohammed Al Thani, the mood in Israel has had two distinct phases. Initially, a sense of wonder, of hope. There was this big vigil in Tel Aviv and a smaller one in Jerusalem, people hugging each other, holding. Not the sort of jubilation we've seen in Gaza, but something opening up, something changing, you know, the misery. And then over about the next 48 hours, the mood in Israel turned pretty bitter as it became clear that this is exactly the same deal that was on the table on May 27. There was a moment on Thursday in which Itamar Benvir, the extremist national security minister, boasted that he had prevented this deal from taking place since May. And then incredibly, truly, incredibly, Prime Minister Netanyahu's cabinet secretary, Yossi Fuchs, he went on Twitter and he said no, it was US and from that moment on, when there was an explicit acknowledgement by the government that this deal had been on the table virtually unchanged, as Joe Biden said, something went very dark. And there have been a lot of public statements by ex hostages who knew this all along but hadn't dared to say it. And there's really an extraordinary article in Yediothachonot in the most widely distributed paper in Israel, with some senior military officials who sounded like they were on the verge of a breakdown because of their feeling that a breach of the public trust had been imposed on them by the political considerations of the government whose orders they have to obey.
- [24:29]
Alex Wagner
On the, on the Palestinian side, the, the Qataris put a great deal of pressure on Hamas as well and said, you're not getting a better deal. To your point, this was the deal that was on the table a long time ago. There is also some discussion about a couple of Palestinian leaders or perceived leaders who are imprisoned, who the Palestinians would like released. That's not going to happen. These are people who are jailed. They're not being released in this tranche and probably not coming out. The Palestinians have vowed to say they will work to get their leaders free. I guess this is a long way of asking you what happens next in this thing. Once the hostages are out, once the bodies are retrieved, once there's quiet for a little while at least. What do you think happens next?
- [25:14]
Scott Besant
Well, first we have to get there, and I'm not sure how that's going to happen. The first phase, this is a three phase agreement, agreement. But the truth is that only phase one has been negotiated and agreed upon. So in signing this deal and ratifying it yesterday, what these parties have agreed to is to put in place phase one, which includes as of day 16 of phase one, beginning to negotiate the conditions for phase two. I'm not sure how much more difficult that will be for Hamas that has been really very severely degraded during these last 15 months. But for Netanyahu's government, that part may be impossible to swallow. The part 2 implies the full withdrawal of all Israeli forces from Gaza. In order for that to be accomplished, it means that somebody else has to be inside Gaza, policing, running things, see what's happening in the ministries. Israel has thus far refused to even contemplate that there could be Palestinian bureaucrats, Palestinian administrators, anyone connected to the Palestinian Authority. Yesterday, after this deal was ratified in Israel, the Palestinian Authority put out a really interesting statement and said, we're ready to take over, we're prepared, we've done everything we need. This is of important message that they've been sending through many levels in recent weeks to the incoming Trump administration. They hope that this time the Trump administration sees them as part of the solution. They want to completely change the dynamic that existed in the first Trump term. And so Israel is going to have to accept something. The terms of phase two are the Israeli army is out and that the rest of the living hostages all get out and many more prisoners get out. This is the really definitive Phase three is more an exchange of dead bodies. It will be very sad, but less difficult. I'm not sure that Netanyahu's. I'm pretty sure that Netanyahu's cabinet as it is currently constituted, will not be able to swallow phase two. And that's why we've seen a string of extremely bizarre statements emerge from his office in the last 24 hours. These are all statements that are supposed to be announcing a ceasefire deal. And instead what they're doing is assuring the public, yes, we'll return to fighting ahead of phase two. The implication being, from the Israeli public's point of view, that two thirds of the hostages would be forsaken. And that's not going down well at all. Not increasing anybody's faith in this government. It's created a kind of terrible new breach in society.
- [28:12]
Alex Wagner
We'll watch it closely over the next 24 hours and through Sunday, and we will hope, as we've been hoping for a long time, Noga, that peace will come to your region. Noga Tarnopolski joining us from Jerusalem tonight. Coming up, searches for oligarchy spiked after President Biden warned in his final address the definition people got. A government in which a small group exercises control, especially for corrupt and selfish purposes, end quote. But it's not just that Elon Musk wants to slash government. Sure. Because what does Elon Musk need from government? Not a minimum wage increase. Not help with student loans for himself or his kids. Not protection from predatory lenders, not lower prescription drug prices. Do you really think Elon Musk knows or cares about any of that? That's the threat of oligarchy. The richest rich people acting in their own interests and against yours. That's next.
- [29:08]
Jennifer Rubin
Today, an oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power and influence that literally threatens our entire democracy, our basic rights and freedoms, and a fair shot for everyone to get ahead.
- [29:24]
Alex Wagner
President Biden stunned the nation with that dire warning in his farewell address, notably as billionaires Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos raced to cozy up To Donald Trump. The president had more to say about it. To Lawrence last night.
- [29:37]
Jennifer Rubin
If the decision is made that the multi billionaires, the super super wealthy, the wealthiest people in the world begin to control all the apparatuses from the media to the economy and who do I get to fight back for me? Who do I get to. I mean, look, I think everybody deserves just a shot, not a guarantee, just a shot.
- [30:10]
Alex Wagner
Who do I get to fight back for me? There are many ways in which the Biden Harris policies helped everyday American. Today, President Biden announced that 15 new drugs, many used to treat conditions like diabetes and cancer, will be eligible for Medicare price negotiation, which means big savings for the seniors who rely on them. The administration also cracked down on junk fees. They barred credit card companies from factoring medical debt into your credit score. They eliminated billions of dollars of student loan debt, debt that wasn't the price of education, but from jacked up interest on the debt. Now, here's the thing. The new American oligarchs don't care about any of that. They certainly don't care about drug prices or overdraft fees or student debt. And Elon Musk is the one guiding Donald Trump right now. That's who Donald Trump handed the proverbial government chopping acts to. Trump's pick for treasury secretary is a hedge fund guy worth half a billion dollars. Whose tax brackets do you think he cares about? Here's Senator Bernie Sanders pressing that man, Scott Besant, about the new American oligarchy. What Biden said last night is we're moving toward an oligarchy. I'm asking you that question. Do you think forget how they made their money, do you think that when so few people have so much wealth and so much economic and political power that that is an oligarchic form of society? Well, I would note that President Biden gave the Presidential Medal of Freedom to two people who I think would qualify for his oligarchs. I'm just asking, when so few people have so much wealth and power, do you think that that is an oligarchic form of society? Senator, I think it depends on the ability to move up and down the. No, that's not really dance up. Joining us now, Betsy Stevenson, an economist and professor at the University of Michigan. She served as the chief economist of the U.S. department of labor under President Obama from 2010 to 2011. Also with us is the Bishop William J. Barber. He's the president of Repairers of the Breach and the co chair of the Poor People's Campaign. He's the Founding director of the center of Public Theology and Public Policy at Yale Divinity School. Welcome to both of you. Thanks for being with us, Professor Stevenson. Let's just start with this conversation. Joe Biden might have given Lawrence the most succinct understanding of what the problem is here. And that is, when so few who are so wealthy control levers of power in media and in corporate America, who stands up for the little guy? So when you look at antitrust laws, you look at competition laws, you look at anti concentration laws. They're meant to be things that allow the consumer to have a fair shake. Talk to me about how you interpret what Bernie Sanders was trying to ask Scott Besant about oligarchy.
- [32:53]
Betsy Stevenson
You know, the thing is those things are meant to help the consumer. They're meant to help everyday people. They're supposed to be rules we put in place so that the game, the game of a market economy is played fairly. And what we're seeing is moving to a world where the people who have the most money want to rewrite the rules in their favor, and they're getting the power and the ability to do that. And what happens when we do that is not just that everyday people get hurt, but actually we undermine the very idea of having a market economy where each and every person out there has a shot at trying to provide goods or services that other people want so that they can succeed in their endeavors. We move away from a market economy so our economy is less efficient. We move away from a democracy so that our politics are very different. And it's all coming on the backs of everyday people who will no longer really see a path to getting ahead. That's the bleak vision that President Biden laid out. And he laid it out as a very important warning.
- [34:05]
Alex Wagner
Bishop Barber, you have for a long time spoken about the least among us. There is a federal minimum wage in this country. It has not changed for a very long time. Long time. It's $7.25. Bernie Sanders asked the nominee for Treasury Secretary about whether he thought that was appropriate. Let's listen to that exchange. Will you work with those of us who want to raise the federal minimum wage to a living wage to take millions of Americans out of poverty? Senator, I believe that the minimum wage wage is more of a statewide and regional issue. So you don't think we should change the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour? No, sir. Bishop, you and I talk about this a lot. I'm going to do it again. I'm going to put up that full screen that I always put up about $7.25 an hour. Assuming you get to only work 40 hours a week, that's $15,080 annually. If you doubled it to $14.50 an hour, you'd still be earning $30,000. Very hard in this country to live for $30,000. It's a principled matter. It's not. Scott Besant was incorrect saying this is a regional and state matter. Sure, some states have higher minimum wages, but we have. It's a philosophical and moral statement that our federal minimum wage is seven and a quarter.
- [35:22]
Noga Tarnopolski
Well, you know, one time Donald Trump even said that he didn't. He believed the current minimum wage was too high. This is what happened when greedy oligarchs take control. They don't even want to have the conversation. We have since 29, 16 years we've not raised the federal minimum wage from $7.25 and $2.13 for tip workers. We talked about 16 years that we've not done this and yet everything else has gone up. I think people need more than a shot. They need a guaranteed living wages. None of The Republicans in 2021 voted for it, which meant they stood against 52 million people who work every day for less than $15 an hour. What does that give us, alan? We got 140 million poor, low wage people in this country. 73 million are women, 800 people dying a day from poverty over a quarter million a year during COVID because of policy failures. We had 26 million people that lacked health insurance during COVID and 15 million last year that lost Medicaid when the Medicaid expansion that happened during the high time of COVID was put away. And if we continue to look at this, 105 million people don't have paid family leave. 46 million people don't have access to safe drinking water. These things will never be dealt with when you have an oligarchy running the media, running the government. They won't talk about the 700,000 homeless people in the United States and the millions that are one bad economic crisis from homelessness. What they will talk about is buying Greenland. What they will talk about is giving more money to billionaires. And we know that 748 US billionaires were $2.2 trillion richer at the Republican tax cuts that they've given. But people, people, everyday people, the people who saved our lives during COVID many of them had to work without living wage. They had to work without paid family leave, they had to work without health care. And yet they were considered essential workers, but they were treated as expendable. And Dr. King preaching at 9 o'clock for the national sermon this coming Monday. Dr. King said in 65 that the greatest fear of the greedy oligarchy in this country were for the masses of poor black people and poor white people to come together and form a voting bloc that could fundamentally shift the economic architecture of this nation.
- [37:45]
Alex Wagner
And as you point out, if they were to do that, it would be a successful voting block. We have much more to talk about on this issue. Thanks to both of you. We commit to making sure we will not get away from this Bishop William J. Barber and Betsy Stevenson, thanks for your time tonight. Coming up, it's been a wild week in the narrowly divided Minnesota State Legislature after a Republican power grab Republican forced a vote for speaker when only Republicans were present in the chamber, setting off a constitutional crisis in that state. We'll tell you that story next.
- [38:16]
Ali Velshi
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Alex Wagner
And reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today, restrictions apply. Who Controls the Minnesota State House? A partisan standoff has erupted over whether Democrats or Republicans are in the majority. This week, 66 Democrats walked out on the first day of the legislative session to deny the Republicans a quorum. But it was business as usual for Republicans, who used their likely temporary one seat majority to elect a speaker. In November, Minnesotans voted for an equally divided state House, 67 Democrats and 67 Republicans, until a judge ruled last month that a newly elected Democrat didn't live in his district to fill that vacancy. A special election was set for January 28th and another Democrat would have likely won that election. A Republican hasn't won an election in Minnesota House District 40B in nearly 30 years. But today, Minnesota Supreme Court sided with Republicans in a lawsuit over the timing of the election. The state Supreme Court ruled that Governor Tim Walz ordered a special election prematurely. Yesterday, Governor Walz called on lawmakers to negotiate a power sharing agreement. Just work together on a power sharing agreement. That's the way it's going to end up. And I think that can work out really well. Joining us now is the Minnesota House Democratic leader, Melissa Hortman. Melissa, great to see you. Thank you for being with us. Complicated story. We gave it a good shot at explaining it. But tell me what, if anything, we're missing here.
- [40:43]
David Graham
Sure. Just after the election, we were tied for a brief moment in time there. We were not tied. And now the Minnesota Supreme Court has said that we are back to a tie. But the reason we didn't go on the first day of session is the Republicans were threatening to toss out a Democratic member just because they wanted to do over in an election they lost. Our guy won on election day. He won in a recount and he also won in court. But the Republicans are looking for a way they can get to a real majority of 68 votes. And so they're talking about throwing out the results of an entirely lawful election just to get a do over.
- [41:20]
Alex Wagner
And just to be clear, this is not the story we were talking about in the, in the intro. This is a different Representative Brad Tabke won. His election was very narrow. He won it by about 14 votes. His Republican opponents sued. And that's what that story's about.
- [41:35]
David Graham
It's absolutely clear in the lawsuit. They looked at every single argument that Republicans made whether there were any problems with that election. And the judge ruled that there's no basis in law or in fact to order a special election. And so Republicans are just unhappy that they lost. And we cannot have a society where when we have a lawful election and you don't like the results that you throw it out.
- [41:59]
Alex Wagner
Okay, so now we have a situation where one way or the other this will get sorted out and it's probably going to end up with 67. 67. What happens then when Governor Wall says figure out a power sharing agreement, obviously you'd be part of that. What does that look like?
- [42:13]
David Graham
Like, well, we had negotiated a power sharing agreement over the 60 days between the election and when the residency challenge was concluded. And under the power sharing agreement, we had agreed to co speakers, we had agreed to co chairs of all the committees. All the committees would have equal numbers of Democrats And Republicans, well, when Republicans thought they had a one vote majority for a minute there, they wanted to instead go back and act as though they were going to run the chamber for the full two years. The problem is in Minnesota, as in most states, you can't really run the chamber unless you have a real majority. You have to have 51%. You don't get anywhere with a tie. You can't pass a bill. And as we established on the first day of session, you can't even establish a quorum.
- [42:59]
Alex Wagner
So is there some sense that you can work with your Republican colleagues across the aisle and make a real power sharing situation work, which obviously is going to cause a lot of problems with a lot of bills that are going to be tied right down the middle. But can something get done?
- [43:12]
David Graham
Yes, I think that's the only way it will work. What we really have to do is be working together instead of trying to play partisan games. I think that the voters are pretty excited about the concept of Democrats and Republicans being forced to work together because, you know, in their eyes we don't work together enough. Certainly we are capable of that. And I think the vast majority of the legislators in the House are ready to get to work. We just need the most partisan folks who are driving leadership decisions right now to convince them to get back to the negotiating table. Let's get a power sharing agreement and let's get going.
- [43:45]
Alex Wagner
Sounds familiar. The most partisan people making decisions. Minnesota House Democratic leader Melissa Hortman. Good to see you. Thank you for joining us tonight. We'll be right back. This weekend's Welshy Band Book Club feature is as close to the great American novel as has ever been written. Written. It's a galvanizing and infuriating, heart wrenching and beautiful story of one family and the story of a nation devastated during the Dust bowl migration of the 1930s. It's a novel that is hugely resonant today and reminds us about how far we still have to go. I am of course talking about John Steinbach's the Grapes of Wrath. And joining me to discuss the award winning classic is Belshie Band Book Club member Emily Danforth, author of the Miseducation of Emily Post and Bruce Robbins, literary scholar, author and humanities professor at Columbia University. That's Tomorrow morning at 10am Eastern we'll feature the Grapes of Wrath. I hope you'll join us. Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it. So don't get stuck paying more for less coverage. Switch to USA Auto insurance and you could start saving money in no time. Get a quote today, restrictions apply.