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The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
'Chaotic' and 'scary': Voters sound off on the first 95 days of Trump's second term
00:41:35
Tonight on The Last Word: Voters share their anger at Trump's agenda at town hall events. Plus, the controversy around Defense Secy. Pete Hegseth and his alleged use of unsecured communications continues to grow. Also, HHS Secy. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., is facing backlash for his comments about Americans with autism. And, the Trump administration's attacks on DEI are facing pushback.
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- [00:02]
Roman Mars
Hi, I'm Roman Mars, host of the podcast 99% invisible. Design is everywhere in our lives, but it's easy to not notice or take it for granted. 99% Invisible is a weekly exploration of the process and power of design and architecture. It's stories of who we are through the lens of the things we build. Like have you ever wondered why we use the 1kHz bleep sound to cover up inappropriate words on radio and TV? Or what aspects of infrastructure allow 5 year olds in Japan to run errands by themselves? Kids in the US are completely dependent on their parents or their parents cars. Or why the historic flag of South Vietnam shows up at right wing protests all the time. Or why people are obsessed with houseplants. And when did we start bringing plants from halfway around the world into our homes to begin with? 99% invisible. We'll explore all of that and more every Tuesday. Follow and listen to 99% invisible wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:02]
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- [01:34]
Jason Johnson
Now it's time for the Last Word with Jason Johnson hosting.
- [01:37]
Rachel
Good evening Jason.
- [01:38]
Jason Johnson
Thanks so much, Rachel. Appreciate it. Now, good evening everyone. This is Jason Johnson. I'd like to bring to you the news of what is happening in our economy because I gotta be honest with you, it is scary and it is chaotic. Donald Trump has been very unpopular with the American people for quite a while now, and it's becoming more and more apparent as we look through polling and recognize that time after time, even the New York Times is pointing out that polling has shown the American people are growing tired of Donald Trump's antics. Now, what is that actually looking like? We are seeing that 66% of Americans are saying that the economy appears chaotic, 59% of Americans are saying the economy looks scary. But that in and of itself is fine. Right? We assume that certain people are gonna have issues with Doge, certain people are gonna have issues with how the economy may be functioning, but when we're getting into the granular areas of the polling, it's becoming abundantly clear that the American people are souring on everything that Donald Trump has done. On issue after issue, a majority of voters disapprove of Donald Trump, from immigration to managing the federal government to Russia's war in the Ukraine. Only 43% approved of Donald Trump's handling of the economy, a serious erosion on an issue that for a long time had been one of his strengths. We also learned that voters think that Donald Trump has gone too far with his agenda as he pushes the legal limit of the executive branch authority. 54% said Donald Trump exceeded the powers available to him as president, including 62% of independents and 16% of Republicans. Today, Donald Trump told reporters that he has spoken to China's president numerous times to discuss a deal to ease tariffs. He told Time magazine that President Xi called him, adding, quote, I don't think that's a sign of weakness on his behalf. When asked what President Xi said to him, Donald Trump offered a nonsensical response. A spokesperson for the Chinese government flatly denied that, saying, quote, china and the US Are not having any consultation or negotiation on tariffs. The US should stop creating confusion. The direct translation to that is stop lying, America. The polls show voters aren't giving Trump the benefit of the doubt that this is all the art of the deal. And the markets and businesses certainly aren't behaving as if they believe the lies and bluster president will magically pull out a win at the end of all of this. NBC News reports, quote, retailers are warning that US Consumers could once again be faced with empty store shelves and the kind of supply chain snarls that marked the COVID era. President Donald Trump's tariffs on China remain at their current levels. Companies have been canceling their shipments of goods from China and halting new orders. Some of the products likeliest to go missing from store shelves in the coming months will be lower cost footwear, apparel, toys and electronics, for which manufacturing is heavily concentrated in China. Bloomberg reports the tariff terror is now a real war on Christmas. Remember the war on Christmas, the thing Republicans invented? See, now they're doing it right now. Retailers have to decide what to order for Christmas. And so items like toys and decorations and costumes that are usually made in China, they have to figure that out now. One economist who served on the White House Council of Economic Advisers during Trump's first term told Bloomberg the following, quote, it's only a matter of time before we see empty shelves at retailers as well as a reduced variety of goods that are available now. Giant companies might be able to take the risk of placing orders, which might end up being unprofitable. But some smaller companies, they might get wiped out altogether. Here's the thing about that Trump tariffs threatened to make Christmas inconvenient for well off parents. They'll get the dreaded out of stock message when they're late night shopping. But for low income or poor parents, like if there's a hundred dollars that you got for Christmas, you only have $100 for Christmas. So if toys cost twice as much this year, Santa's bringing home half as much to your kids. Think about how that mom and dad will feel or their kids. And here's the thing. None of this had to happen. We we should have been in the clear after the pandemic. But no, Donald Trump had to Trump There's a report that's really fascinated me about pizza sales and how that's affecting our economy. We're seeing the frozen pizza sales are surging as people shift to eating at home instead of dining out at restaurants. Yahoo Finance reports that we've seen this trend during economic downturns before. Quote during the 2009 recession and the 2020 pandemic, frozen food sales, particularly frozen pizza, significantly increase. This trend is reflective of a more home centric consumer behavior driven by factors such as inflation and the ongoing global uncertainty. Years ago, I heard one Domino's Pizza shop owner say he can always tell if we're heading into a recession or how strong the economy is by who his delivery drivers are. When times are good, the drivers are teenagers and college students home for break, just getting some extra cash when times are bad. His drivers are adults in their 30s, 40s and 50s doing second jobs to make a little extra cash, probably for Christmas. But people won't have to wait until the holiday season to pay more for stuff. CNBC reports Quote Amazon merchants are hiking prices for everything from diaper bags and refrigerator magnets to charm necklaces and other top selling items as they confront higher import costs. E Commerce software company Smart Scout tracked 930 products on Amazon that have seen increased prices since April 9, with an average jump of 29% in categories including clothing, jewelry, household items, office supplies, electronics and toys. The Wall Street Journal reports that no surprise, consumers are not feeling good about the economic outlook, writing that quote consumer sentiment for April was 52.2, down from 57 in March, a drop of 8% from the previous month. A separate index measuring consumers expectations for the Future was down 32% since January. The survey said that was the steepest three month percentage decline since the 1990 recession. The turmoil of Donald Trump's first 95 days is reflected not just in the polls, but also in the anger that we're seeing at town halls. The President's path is, with respect to tariffs, is about resetting the relationship of global trade.
- [08:24]
Ro Khanna
That's, I believe you, my opinion.
- [08:27]
Jason Johnson
So I'm gonna talk to you, sir, if everybody has an opinion. So you can tax them 100%.
- [08:36]
Ro Khanna
And.
- [08:36]
Jason Johnson
That would pay Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. And that's it? That's it. First, let me start with hands off.
- [08:52]
Barbara McQuaid
Our Social Security, hands off our education.
- [08:55]
Ro Khanna
Yourself are handicapped in this case, hands off to veterans.
- [08:59]
Barbara McQuaid
You are a veteran.
- [09:01]
Jason Johnson
Are you gonna bring that guy back from El Salvador? Why not? Well, because that's not a, that's not.
- [09:13]
Barbara McQuaid
A power of Congress.
- [09:15]
Rachel
Supreme Court said to bring it back.
- [09:20]
Ro Khanna
What can they do?
- [09:24]
Jason Johnson
Trump don't care. He doesn't. Leading off our discussion tonight now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee and the House Armed Services Committees. He held a town hall tonight in Nebraska. Congressman Ro Khanna, thanks so much for joining us tonight. So I'll just start off. California is your district, but you were in a town hall in Nebraska. Tell us a little bit about why you were in Nebraska and what you were hearing from voters there.
- [09:54]
Ro Khanna
Well, I've been doing town halls in Republican districts where Republican members aren't showing up. I started with three town halls in rural California and thousands of people were showing up. So I started to get invited in other states, was in New Jersey earlier this week and then in rural Nebraska. And people were upset. I mean, they're upset, of course, at the Medicaid cuts. They're most upset at this program. $1 billion cut that goes to farmers to pay them for giving food to churches and religious organizations and food banks and kids. And then $1 billion has been cut. But, you know, many people, which surprised me, spoke out also about the rights of immigrants and how concerned they are about people being deported without due process. So many questions on that. And this in the heart of rural Nebraska.
- [10:46]
Jason Johnson
Congressman, this is fascinating to me because one, I think this is a bold move. This is what representatives are supposed to do. But what is being said by the Republican members of these jurisdictions? You guys are colleagues, right? So even if you're in their community, in their backyard, do they, do they brush shoulders with you when you get back to Congress? Did he send you angry tweets or text messages. What's being said to you by these Republican members when you show up in their district and talk to the very constituents that they're afraid to talk to?
- [11:15]
Ro Khanna
Well, I've got one or two angry texts. But let me tell you this. I was in David Valdeo's district in California in Bakersfield. 67% are on Medicaid in that district. And I said I would like Representative Valdeo not to be for the cuts to Medicaid. A couple other members of Congress also went there. And lo and behold, a few days ago, Representative Valdeo said He's one of 11 members of who's going to oppose Medicaid cuts. Now he told the Washington Post, it has nothing to do with me. And maybe it doesn't, but it certainly has to do with a thousand people who were showing up in his district in my town hall. And so these things are working. When people say, what can Democrats do, organize in these red districts? It's not just for 2026. It's to stop the draconian action. You're going to see more Republicans than finding spine to speak out against the Medicaid cuts, to speak out for the Constitution and the rule of law, to speak against these irrational blanket tariffs.
- [12:16]
Jason Johnson
I said at the beginning of the show that there is a new Times poll out that's showing just extreme anxiety and discomfort when it comes to the economy. A 32 point drop since January in consumer confidence about where the economy is going. There are people in this country who already feel like we're heading towards the dreaded R word. What are you hearing when you're traveling around the country right now? Are people tightening up their belts this summer? We know that government employees, many of whom have lost their jobs to Doge means no summer camp for their kids. That means no vacations. But what are you hearing from other people in the economy?
- [12:50]
Ro Khanna
There's a lot of anxiety there because we're in an economic crisis. I mean, a 20% drop in the markets. I mean, this is affecting people's retirements, for one case, consumer confidence, the second lowest since it's been since 1952. The April stock market trending to the worst months since 1932. And then you have, while the stock market is declining, unprecedented bond yields are going up, meaning people are not confident anymore in our treasury bills. They're going into gold. It is a crisis of enormous proportions. And you even hear Republicans having doubts, even Silicon Valley folks in my district having doubts. I said to someone Today, half jokingly, I said, look, in this country, you can commit crimes and have criminal indictments and people will forgive you. If you're a politician, you can, as Trump, do things in your personal life. People will forgive you. You can start an insurrection, People will forgive you. But you know what you can't do? You can't destroy people's money. You can't destroy wealth. That's what he's doing. And it seems that's the red line in this country.
- [13:56]
Jason Johnson
That is what we're hoping, at least not for people to have economic difficulty, but for consequences to finally be held by this administration. Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you so much for starting us off tonight.
- [14:06]
Ro Khanna
Thank you.
- [14:08]
Jason Johnson
Today, Time magazine released a new interview with Donald Trump. But I want to read what Trump said when asked about Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was forcibly deported by mistake to an El Salvador prison. In Time magazine, The Supreme Court ruled 90 that you have to bring back Kilmar Abrego Garcia. You haven't done so. Aren't you disobeying the Supreme Court? Trump responds, well, that's not what my people told me. They didn't say it was. They said it was. The nine to nothing was something entirely different. Time magazine let me quote from the ruling. The order properly requires the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador. Are you facilitating a release? Trump's response I leave that to my lawyers. I give them no instructions. They feel the order said something very much different from what you're saying. But I leave that to my lawyers if they want. And that would be the attorney general of the United States and the people that represent the country. I don't make that decision. Time magazine have you asked the president of El Salvador to return him? Trump says, I haven't. He said he wouldn't. Time magazine did you ask him? Trump says, but I haven't asked him positively. But he said he wouldn't. Time magazine. But if you haven't asked him, then how are you facilitating Abrego's release? Trump says, well, because I haven't been asked to ask him by my attorneys. Nobody asked me to ask him that question except for you. Barbara McQuaid, former U.S. attorney and an MSNBC legal analyst, joins us now. Barbara, I trust that I can ask you a question and get a straight answer, unlike Time magazine and Donald Trump, right?
- [15:59]
Barbara McQuaid
Absolutely.
- [16:01]
Jason Johnson
Wonderful. What is your reaction to that interview? What is just, just as a lawyer and as an American citizen, what is your reaction to that?
- [16:11]
Barbara McQuaid
It is an absolute effort to run away from what the court has said here. You may recall that Stephen Miller said that it was a 90 decision reaffirming the President's power to conduct foreign policy. And that's not at all what it said, as you just read it, said that the administration must facilitate his release from a prison. And to date, I don't know that they've done anything to do that. As we heard an intermediate court of appeals say after this issue, when the Trump administration said words to the effect of, well, if he should find himself at the border, we know we have to let him in. But as the court of appeals said, no, it means more than that. Facilitate is an active verb. It means you've got to take action. And the idea that he hasn't even asked the president of El Salvador, if he simply let him come back, then they're not doing anything to facilitate this order. It's really absurd. It's talking in circles. And it is, I think, a flagrant violation of the court's order.
- [17:15]
Jason Johnson
So, Barbara, there's twofold to this. Obviously, like a Time magazine interview isn't testimony under oath, right? But can Abrego Garcia's lawyers, can they use this interview with the president? Because the president is basically admitting, again, not under oath, that he's not even trying to listen to what the court's saying.
- [17:34]
Barbara McQuaid
Absolutely. Anything anybody says in public to a witness is an admission that can be usable in court. And so I think this is great evidence that this administration is not taking any steps to try to return Mr. Abrego Garcia, not trying to facilitate his return, as we have seen. And so, you know, people keep asking, are we in a constitutional crisis because the administration is disobeying court orders? It seems to me that what they're really trying to do is to dance around it just a little bit. They've been saying things like, well, they said facilitate. And what does that really mean? At one point, when we saw a disregard for a different court order, one of the argum was, well, that part wasn't in writing. That part was just oral. So we didn't know we had to obey that part of the order. It seems that they are trying to, out of one side of their mouth, say that they're obeying court orders, but then in the reality is, they're not doing anything to comply with those orders. So at some point, I think we're going to see this teed up with a true contempt order, and that's really when we're going to see this standoff and Whether this administration blinks and does comply with the court orders or if they're going to continue to defy them.
- [18:48]
Jason Johnson
So if you think that a contempt order is what's gonna happen next in this case, what's the force behind that? Right. Like the Supreme Court doesn't have its own army. The Supreme Court doesn't appear to have many enforcement mechanisms. So what happens after the contempt charge? Does that mean Donald Trump's key card won't work in the White House for a while? What's the power behind contempt if that's the next step?
- [19:10]
Barbara McQuaid
Yeah, it's a, it's a really good question and I think it's a really dangerous place to be in. You know, our constitutional system requires or assumes that people will be acting in good faith, that people will respect co equal branches of government. But if we see someone not do that, in this instance the president or someone within his administration, the court has some other options. They can impose fines, but if the court should order someone jailed for contempt, the agency that handles that is the U.S. marshals Service, which answers to the Justice Department, part of the executive branch. And so you could imagine a scenario perhaps where there is an order of contempt in order that someone be jailed. And the U.S. marshals say, well, our boss, Pam Bondi, the attorney general has told us not to execute that order, to jail somebody, really. Then the only option is what's left to check a president. You know, it's a game of scissors, paper, rock. And the last remaining force in that equation is Congress. And Congress has the power through impeachment to remove a president who violates his oath of office by failing to obey a court order. I don't know that this Congress has the backbone to do that.
- [20:29]
Jason Johnson
Yeah, we saw how well that worked a couple times in the last administration. Barbara McQuaid, thank you for that sobering assessment of what's going on in this country right now.
- [20:37]
Ashley Wiley Johnson
You bet.
- [20:39]
Jason Johnson
Coming up, Republicans who look the other way and confirm Pete Hegseth as Donald Trump's defense secretary have yet another reason to be ashamed of that vote. If that's something that they actually feel. The very latest on the most scandal plagued member of Donald Trump's cabinet. And that saying something is coming next, where Congressman Adam Smith, the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee.
- [21:01]
Lacy Mosley
What's poppin, listeners? I'm Lacy Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole byer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:40]
Jason Johnson
Hataday presents in the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated Weed Whacker Guy, champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere. And in the blue corner, the challenger, Extra Strength Hannity, eyedrops that work all day to prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes. And the winner by knockout is Patternay. Patternay. Bring it on.
- [22:11]
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- [22:48]
Jason Johnson
Day 95 of Trump 2.0 and tonight it's zero days since Pete Hegseth has not been front page news for just being messy, the New York Times has been reporting. Defense Secretary Pete Heg says personal phone number, the one used in a recent Signal chat, was easily accessible on the Internet and public apps as recently as March, potentially exposing national security secrets to foreign adversaries. The phone number could be found in a variety of places, including WhatsApp, Facebook and a fantasy sports site. It was the same number through which the defense secretary, using the Signal commercial messaging app, disclosed flight data for American strikes on the Houthi militia in Yemen. NBC News also confirmed a report published yesterday by the Associated Press. Hegseth had a special Internet line installed in his Pentagon office in defiance of the Defense Department's normal security protocols so that he could use the Signal app on a personal computer there, according to two officials familiar with the matter. The so called dirty line, referred to that way because it's not secured, increases the likelihood of the office being hacked or surveilled by a foreign adversary or another entity. A spokesman for the defense secretary told the Washington Post that hegseth quote, has never used and does not currently use signal on his government computer. That same NBC News report detailed the chaos under Hegseth and the Pentagon. Hex's behavior has become erratic, and he seems increasingly insecure about his job and standing in the administration, leading him to frequently reinforce to staff that he can't allow himself to be fired, according to two officials familiar with the situation. Officials who operate in Hegseth's vicinity describe him as difficult and prickly and said that he berates and yells at the staff. The officials described a tense environment with fighting, even yelling amongst Hegseth's senior staff. Now, that comes a day after the Wall Street Journal reported on an incident which Hegseth screamed, quote, I'll hook you to an effing polygraph at Admiral Christopher Grady, who was then the acting chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Joining us now to discuss this nonsense is Democratic Congressman Adam Smith of Washington. He's the ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee. Thank you so much, Congressman, for joining us this evening. Now, look, I always say this. I don't care about palace intrigue. I'm not interested in personality battles with this regime that's running the country right now. But I am legitimately concerned about a person who seems both incompetent and messy and dysfunctional. In your position, what are you seeing in the behavior of Secretary of Defense Hegsef that is most dangerous to American security right now?
- [25:40]
Adam Smith
Well, it's not terribly surprising. First of all, you know, Secretary Hegseth had run a couple of small nonprofits in a very similar fashion before this, this all became public. I mean, the most concerning aspect of this is, well, two things. One, the lack of security, the vulnerabilities that he has created. But then second, just the incompetent management. And look, the Pentagon's a very important place. Decisions are made every day about what programs to purchase, procurement programs, people to hire, and all that. He seems manifestly incapable of running, well, any organ organization, much less the Pentagon. Now, it doesn't have, like, a specific thing. It's not like he's going to accidentally start a war. But that level of incompetence just leads to a poorly run agency. And the Department of Defense is enormously important. It spends a lot of taxpayer dollars, first of all, so we want to make sure they're spending them well. And second, it's responsible for the national security of our country. And I guess third, you know, it's responsible for taking care of the men and women who serve in our military. He appears incapable of running the agency.
- [26:43]
Jason Johnson
So, Congressman, this is the thing, and I'm not being hyperbolic here, you're saying, well, you know, he's not necessarily gonna start a war. But here's the thing. If the Secretary of Defense is constantly exposing national defense secrets, if I can find his number on DraftKings, right? If I can find his number on WhatsApp and Venmo, what's to stop his sloppiness from exposing our security to terrorist organizations or rogue nations that may want to attack us? Isn't this lack of responsibility on his behalf leaving us open to potentially being attacked or being drawn into a conflict that we have no national security interest in?
- [27:22]
Adam Smith
I mean, absolutely. Let me just also say that a lot of decisions are being made right now on the war in Yemen. It's funny, with all the background and all the incompetence that Secretary Axseth has shown on security, people are losing track of the fact that we're engaged in a 40 plus day bombing campaign in Yemen that doesn't appear to have any end to it. So, yes, you're 100% correct. This places us at greater risk. And this is a theme, I think, of the Trump presidency that we need to highlight more. Yes, he is violating the Constitution. Yes, he is an aspiring autocrat trying to destroy a lot of the basic protections that we have. You know, deporting people without any evidence, disobeying court rulings, as your previous guest talked about. But he's also making us weaker as a country, weaker economically weaker in terms of our national security. And what he's doing at the Department of Defense absolutely places us at exactly the risk that you just described.
- [28:15]
Jason Johnson
Congressman, one last quick question. The Secretary of Defense is also responsible for being basically the point person when we interact with our allies abroad after what many of our allies saw Donald Trump do to Vladimir Zelensky after Vice President Vance basically went to Europe and said, you guys are the old team. We don't want to socialize with you anymore. Do you think that Secretary Hegseth has the ability to go to our allies and heal those relationships so that again, United States national security and global national security can be maintained?
- [28:47]
Adam Smith
Well, the fact that I'm laughing before you even finish that question tells you no, no, on a series of levels. I mean, look, I mean, I suppose you could argue that he picked Pete Hegseth to be an outsider, to be a new voice who is gonna try to change things, but at the end of the day, he's not very capable person who has been Put in a position that is way above his talent level and that undermines. So how is he gonna organize? I mean, he can't organize his own office. How is he gonna organize a conversation with dozens of different allies across complex issues? Just in general, I mean, putting aside for the. Well, that's one issue. Second issue is Donald Trump has told the rest of the world to go to hell. I mean, he said allies, partners, we don't need them, you know, and I think that is really placing us at risk. So I mean, even if Pete Hag says was an incredibly capable secretary of and he had to go walk into a room in European after what his boss and what the vice president have said, insulting, belittling, pushing away allies, that would be a tough job for a competent, capable, experienced manager. And we learned Secretary Hag said there's none of those things. So, no, there is no way he is going to make the situation better with our allies. And it's bad enough right now. And again, just want to close emphasizing this point. Why does this matter to the American people? It matters because it makes us weaker. It makes us more vulnerable. We do still have adversaries, Iran, various terrorist organizations. And as I mentioned, our troops are committed in Yemen. They are committed throughout the Middle East. I just got back from a 10 day trip. They're visiting them in Iraq and in a couple of other countries. So we're out there, we're vulnerable. We're in a bad position. We need competent, capable leaders who are building strong alliances and protecting this country. Donald Trump is not giving this to us. And please, Pete Hagseth is terrible. Don't forget it is Donald Trump's responsibility. He's the one who picked him. He's the one who is pushing this horrible national security policy.
- [30:42]
Jason Johnson
Somebody who can't organize a group chat certainly can't organize a coalition of the willing. Congressman Adam Smith, thank you so much for joining us this evening.
- [30:50]
Adam Smith
Thanks for the chance.
- [30:52]
Jason Johnson
Coming up, another scandal inside Trump's cabinet this week.
- [30:56]
Rachel
Shocker.
- [30:57]
Jason Johnson
Comments made by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. About autism and a report suggesting the Trump administration had plans to create a registry to track Americans with autism. That's next.
- [31:11]
Rob Lowe
Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox, There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:47]
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Jason Johnson
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Adam Smith
On Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.
- [32:52]
Barbara McQuaid
Autism is a spectrum Some people need more support than others, but to generalize and say none of us can work, date or contribute to society is completely false.
- [33:03]
Jason Johnson
I have a job.
- [33:04]
Barbara McQuaid
I do pay taxes. I've dated. I have a master's degree. We don't need to be fixed. We need to be supported. But the answer isn't erasing autism. It's building a more inclusive world for all of us.
- [33:20]
Jason Johnson
That was Danny Bowman, a cast member on Netflix, Love on the spectrum speaking out against the characterization Trump, Health and Human Services secretary Robert Kennedy Jr. Made about people with autism. RFK Jr. Who Trump picked and Republicans confirmed for the nation's top health job even though he has no medical or scientific degree, deeply upset people with his recent comments describing autism as a, quote, preventable disease and saying that those with autism will, quote, never pay taxes, they'll never hold a job, they'll never play baseball, they'll never write a poem, they'll never go on a date. A Health and Human Services spokesperson later put out a statement that Kennedy Jr. Was only referring to, quote, those that are severely affected. Earlier this week, CBS News reported that as part of Kennedy Junior's plan to study autism, a new disease registry is being launched to track Americans with autism, which will be integrated into the data including medication records from pharmacy chains, lab testing and genomics data from patients treated by the Department of Veterans affairs and Indian Health Service, claims from private insurers and data from smartwatches and fitness trackers. As you can imagine, a proposal to create a registry of Americans with a certain condition and track their movements, medical treatments and prescriptions. Yeah, that's a five alarm fire for people in the autism community and anybody else in America who cares about medical privacy. And tonight, HHS says no, no, no, we're not creating an autism registry. Quote A Department of Health and Human Services official said Friday that the health Department is not creating an autism registry, contradicting an announcement made days ago by the director of the National Institutes of Health describing his plans to study causes of autism. We're not creating an autism registry. The real world data platform will link existing data sets to support research into causes of autism and insights into improved treatment strategies, an official for the department told CBS News in an email statement. The HHS official did not say whether the Director, Dr. J. Bhattachara, initially misspoke or explained why his plan was reversed. Bhattachara did not respond to a request for comment. HHS has not responded to a CBS News request for an interview with Bhattachara about the registry. All this attention on Kennedy Jr. S ignorance when the reality is the biggest looming threat to children and adults with autism and their families is the Republican budget plan to slash Medicaid and Elon Musk Doge Chainsaw, which cut funding for education and autism research. Joining us now to discuss is Ashley Wiley Johnson, Ph.D. no relation. She is a speech language pathologist and vice president of the Los Angeles Speech and Language Therapy Center. She's also the co author of the book Autism Spectrum Disorders From Theory to Practice Assessment and Intervention Tools across the lifespan. Dr. Wiley Johnson, thank you for joining me this evening. This is a very important issue to me both personally and politically. And I just want to start with this. When you heard earlier this week and April is Autism Awareness Month, when you heard earlier this week that the Department of Health and Human Services might be creating an autism registry, what was your first reaction?
- [36:43]
Ashley Wiley Johnson
You know, my first reaction, thank you, Jason, for having me on tonight was nothing short of feeling alarm. And quite frankly, I felt like this idea of creating some sort of list to track people felt all too common historically. So I'm concerned about it, as is all of the people that I've spoken to in the autism community now.
- [37:07]
Jason Johnson
Dr. Wally Johnson, one of the things that I think is important for people to understand is that while there are increasing numbers of people who have been diagnosed with autism in the United States, that is a reflection of better prevention and assessment. Right. It's not necessarily some sign that autism is increasing, which is what conspiracy theorists like RFK Jr are trying to promote, correct?
- [37:29]
Ashley Wiley Johnson
Yes. Well, of course, you know, we know that the tools that we have, the diagnostic understanding, our awareness and even acceptance of autism has definitely led to some of the increase in prevalence that we're starting to see. Of course, you know, as a clinician seeing this increase, which is pretty significant, it also is rapid, I am concerned. So I would like to see research continue. But it seems absolutely counterintuitive that we would take the money away from research when the need is to figure out more about what's going on.
- [38:10]
Jason Johnson
One Last quick question, Dr. Wiley Johnson. All of these cuts that we're seeing to Medicare and Medicaid, you have a center where you work with children and adults on autism, on the autism spectrum, helping them integrate into the economy and society. What are these kinds of cuts to Medicaid and Medicare going to do to the families and the people who have autism in this country right now?
- [38:34]
Ashley Wiley Johnson
I mean, it is so detrimental to say the absolute least. We are fortunate to be in a place where we're able to provide amazing services to individuals. I know when I see the moment when parents say this is really tough or this is hard on my marriage, it happens all the time. However, with access to services and support, like was earlier mentioned in the show, you see the trajectory and the life of individuals with autism change. You see the feeling of that never day go into I have hope or I'm excited for my child to reach these milestones. So to be able to take the money away when what we need is to change the access, allowing more people to come and get services, it's just unfortunate to say the absolute least. And seeing this rise in prevalence rates coupled with pulling back from the critical services that we know help to support individuals who have autism. It's mind boggling.
- [39:40]
Jason Johnson
It is also a crisis of conscience, but that doesn't seem to be something that this administration cares about. Ashley Wiley Johnson, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Last Word.
- [39:49]
Ashley Wiley Johnson
Thank you, Jason.
- [39:51]
Jason Johnson
Coming up, meet someone who's fighting back against the Trump administration's war on dei. That's next. The Last Word. Tonight there is new reporting about more Trump program cuts at the Department of Defense comes after nearly 400 books were purged from the U.S. naval Academy Library following an order from dissent. Secretary Pete Hagseth, including Maya Angelou's I Know why the Caged Bird Sings and a book about Holocaust survivors. Also note, Hitler's Mein Kampf was not one of the books removed. Best selling author Ryan Holiday, best known for his work on stoic philosophy, shared in a New York Times op ed what happened last Monday when he was scheduled to lecture at the U.S. naval Academy, quote, For the past four years, I have been delivering a series of lectures on the virtues of stoicism to midshipmen at the U.S. naval Academy. I was supposed to continue on April 14th to the entire sophomore class on the theme of wisdom. Roughly an hour before my talk was to begin, I received a call. Would I refrain from any mention in my remarks about the recent removal of 381 supposedly controversial books from the Nimitz Library on campus? When I declined, my lecture was canceled. A Navy spokesperson told the Times that the Academy, quote, made a schedule change that aligns with its mission of preparing midshipmen for careers of service. Joining us now is Ryan Holiday, author of the new book Right Thing Right Now. Good Values, Good Character, Good Deeds. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us this evening. On the Last Word, I just want to start with this. I know what it's like to have a speaking engagement. You get prepared, you have your speech, you're excited to do it, you're going around, you're talking, you know, sometimes there's, there's, you know, compensation involved, et cetera, et cetera. What made you decide to say, hey, look, if you guys aren't going to let me tell the truth to our military, I'd rather not do it? What was that decision making like for you?
- [41:50]
Rachel
I just felt that in good conscience I couldn't have lectured there, as I did in 2022 about courage, in 2024 about justice, and then fold because someone was trying to suppress criticism of a decision that I suspect every professor and administrator at the Naval Academy knows is antithetical to basic academic independence and this sort of pursuit of wisdom. You don't ban books that you don't like. You don't have to read them, but you don't ban them. And an elite institution has to be willing and able to engage with ideas they disagree with, they don't like, even that are incorrect. And so I felt I couldn't tell them to do it and then model the exact opposite of that behavior.
- [42:41]
Jason Johnson
I want to read for the audience a little bit of the speech you were going to give at the Naval Academy. This is the line that I love this Is, as the kids would say, bars. I'm a college professor myself. Read dangerously, read curiously. Plunge into unfamiliar territory, get behind enemy lines, and seek to understand anything and everything, particularly the points of view of the people you disagree with. Steel men rather than straw men. Investigate rather than persecute. Why is that belief system so important not just for Americans and people in general, but in particular for men and women in the military?
- [43:15]
Rachel
Yeah, look, this goes all the way back to Sun Tzu, the idea that you have to know your enemy. Seneca, the great Stoic philosopher, talked about how we have to read behind enemy lines. And what I've always loved about Seneca's writings, I think it's a model for all of us, is the philosopher. He quotes. Quotes the most. Is Epicurus, ostensibly his. His greatest rival. And he has this great line. He says, I'll quote a bad author if the line is good. You know, there's great stuff from people that we disagree with. There are ideas in their work that. That helps us understand why we have our own beliefs. And so if you're afraid of what you disagree with, you're gonna get in trouble. And. And in fact, a metaphor I heard that I think a lot about is, like, are. What's your style of learning? Are you a soldier or are you a scout? Now, you might think that midshipmen at the Naval Academy want to be soldiers, but soldiers defend beliefs. Scouts go and explore. And we want this generation of leaders who in the future are going to command submarines, who are going to command fighter jets. A graduate of the Naval Academy who's spoken out about this. Admiral Stavridis was the supreme allied commander of NATO. These are people who are gonna deal with factions with immense moral obligations and responsibilities, and they need to be able to be not just informed historically, but find common ground and be able to get in the mind and the shoes of people and cultures very different than theirs.
- [44:42]
Jason Johnson
Yeah, we have always admired the sort of warrior philosopher, and that requires someone who actually understands things other than the orders and maybe even the morality behind the orders. Ryan, I also want to ask this because I think this is key. Whenever something like this happens, right, there's public backlash, there's commentary. But have you heard from people at the academy? Have you had professors reach out to you, students reach out to you and say, I really wish that you could have given your speech. We're gonna find some way around it. Or has everyone sort of circled the wagons around the academy's decision to block what you had to say?
- [45:15]
Rachel
Of course, privately, I've heard from all sorts of people. And the Naval Academy is one of our absolute crown jewels of this country. It's responsible for our naval power. It's filled with some of the brightest young men and women. In fact, I go all over the world. I talk to all different groups. One of the things that gives me the most hope about our country and about the future is the young men and women that I've got to meet there at the Naval Academy. And I think it says something about where we are now, that they are afraid to speak out, that they are having to follow orders that they know are wrong. And look, I agree that the Naval Academy should be largely apolitical. And that's why it's so unfortunate that the Defense Department and the president plunged it into this political fray, put these people in this impossible situation where they're having to choose between their pensions and their job security and two measly slides in my presentation. They shouldn't have to do that.
- [46:10]
Jason Johnson
You know, it's hard to say that it's an apolitical institution when you get rid of I know why the Cageburg sings, but you keep mine calm. Ryan Holiday, thank you so much for joining us tonight on the Last Word.
- [46:20]
Rachel
My pleasure.
- [46:21]
Jason Johnson
We'll be right back. And that was tonight's Last Word.
- [46:28]
Rob Lowe
Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here, if you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.