← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Chief Justice Roberts rebukes Trump’s threat to impeach judge
00:41:47
Tonight on The Last Word: A federal judge rules the dismantling of USAID likely violated the Constitution. Also, early voting begins in the Wisconsin Supreme Court election. Plus, Donald Trump fails to convince Vladimir Putin to accept a 30-day ceasefire in Ukraine. And frustrated voters confront GOP lawmakers at town halls. Judge J. Michael Luttig, Judge Susan Crawford, Ben Rhodes, and Rep. Emilia Sykes join Ali Velshi.
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- [00:02]
Ali Velshi
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Ben Rhodes
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Susan Crawford
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Ben Rhodes
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- [00:30]
MSNBC Announcer
Stay connected with the MSNBC app. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Visit msnbc.comapp to download.
- [00:45]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
Now it's time for the Last Word where Ali Velshi is in for Lawrence tonight. Good evening, Ali. I'm sorry, I have taken some time.
- [00:49]
Ali Velshi
Go over your time anytime. I'm here. You know, I love Timothy Snyder because he takes tyranny out of the abstract. Right? He makes it really real. But your interview with him are even better. You get the best out of him. He said something and I stopped just to write it down when you said, some of these protests are not big. And he said when strange things happen and nobody reacts, then it normalizes it. So even if it's small, even if one or two people react, that other people see it and that you cover it the way you've been covering it makes people think, maybe I have a voice, maybe I've got agency, maybe I should join, maybe I should be part of this.
- [01:27]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
It also, you know, it's persuasion, right? I mean, demonstration is moral suasion. You are appealing to the conscience of anybody who sees you. And it may be that the clever or witty or incisive thing that you put on your sign changes somebody somewhere when they see it. And that resonance matters and people speaking up matters.
- [01:47]
Ali Velshi
And he said what it does is also draw those elected politicians, those people in politics who are courageous and charismatic. It draws them into the conversation. So there's value in it. If people are sitting there saying, I don't know, this is out of control, I don't understand it and I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Demonstrating as you do every night, what people are doing is helpful and I thank you for that.
- [02:07]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
Well, thank you. I'm just watching what's happening and trying to reflect it. Thanks, Ali.
- [02:11]
Ali Velshi
We'll see you tomorrow.
- [02:12]
Congresswoman Amelia Sykes
Okay.
- [02:13]
Ali Velshi
At 9:05am Eastern Time this morning, Donald Trump logged onto social media and he wrote something so out of bounds that Chief Justice John Roberts of the Supreme Court had to issue a public rebuke in his Post, Donald Trump raged against the federal judge who blocked his summary expulsion of Venezuelan migrants. U.S. district Judge James Boasberg writing, quote, this judge, like many of the crooked judges I am forced to appear before, should be impeached. Impeached in all capitals. There it is. We've heard it from Elon Musk now, from the mouth of the President of the United States. Let's not mince words. Trump is calling on Republicans in Congress to rid him of a federal judge who ruled against him. That is what autocrats do. They take control of the judiciary and then they shape it to protect their ambitions rather than those of the people, like the El Salvador strongman Naib Bukele, who calls himself the world's coolest dictator. Last month, Elon Musk praised Bukele's purge of El Salvador's Supreme Court on social media, writing, quote, unfortunately, as President Bukele eloquently articulates, there is no other option. We must impeach to save democracy, end quote. The background to Trump's post today is that MAGA caucus members in the House of Representatives have introduced articles of impeachment against three federal judges who have ruled against Trump. We'll talk about this in a minute, because impeachment of judges is a real thing and there's a real reason for it, and this isn't it. Judge Boasberg would be the fourth judge targeted if and when the Texas Republican Congressman Brandon Gill files articles of impeachment against him, as he has vowed to do. And that could be why Chief Justice Roberts felt that he had to step in and deliver a rare and extraordinary statement today. Quote, for more than two centuries, it has been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision. The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose, end quote. To be clear, Donald Trump doesn't have the votes to wage a politically motivated purge of America's federal judiciary, which would require a 2/3 vote of the Senate. But Donald Trump has a proven track record of whipping up supporters against judges who've ruled against him, both as a criminal defendant and during his presidencies. Just ask the federal judge, Tanya Chutkan, whose D.C. home was swatted when she presided over Donald Trump's federal prosecution for trying to subvert the 2020 presidential election. Or the Manhattan Judge Arthur Engoron, whose Long island home received a bomb threat before he issued a roughly half billion dollar civil verdict against Donald Trump for business fraud or maga. Turning on the Trump appointed Justice Amy Coney Barrett, who, despite being sufficiently conservative did not appear to be sufficiently loyal to Donald Trump. But the federal courts refused to be intimidated. Today, Judge Boasberg demanded answers from the Trump administration. Very simple but specific questions about why the administration did not obey his order to stop last week's deportation flights, including, quote, one, what time did the plane take off from the United States and from where? Two, what time did it leave US Airspace? Three, what time did it land in which foreign country, including if it made more than one stop? And four, what time were individuals subject solely to the proclamation transferred out of U.S. custody? Finally, five, simple question. How many people were aboard solely on the basis of the proclamation? None of these are complicated questions. The judge has given the government until noon tomorrow to answer them. Judge Boasberg has scheduled an in person hearing on the matter for Friday. Judge Boasberg has shown he's not willing to accept the Trump shuffle. The shifting answers about why the administration did not obey the judge's order on Saturday to turn planes carrying hundreds of Venezuelan migrants back to the United States. Now, the green shoot here is, and look, we're all looking for green shoots if we can find them. The green shoot is that the Trump administration, I suppose could have said we do not obey your order, try and stop us. That would get us into or at least awfully close to a constitutional crisis. But the Trump administration didn't say that. For now at least, the Trump administration is in fact participating in the judicial process and the process continues. That said, here's what Trump said when asked tonight on Fox News about Chief Justice Roberts. Comments.
- [06:59]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
What's your reaction to the courts stepping in to make a statement here?
- [07:03]
Donald Trump
Well, he didn't mention my name in the statement. I just saw it quickly. He didn't mention my name. But many people have called for his impeachment, the impeachment of this judge. I don't know who the judge is, but he's radical left. He was Obama appointed and he actually said we shouldn't be able to take criminals, killers, murderers, horrible, the worst people, gang members, gang leaders, that we shouldn't be allowed to take them out of our country. Well, that's a presidential job.
- [07:29]
Ali Velshi
So first of all, that's not what the judge said. The judge didn't say we shouldn't be able to do that. And yes, it is a presidential job, but the president has to follow the law, or at least that's what we've all been led to believe all these years. The Supreme Court did muddy the waters on that issue with its unorthodox ruling about presidential immunity last year. But as the very conservative New York Post editorial board pointed out to Elon Musk about this very case two days ago, quote, sorry, Elon, even deporting illegal gang bangers must heed the rule of law. But Judge Boasberg isn't the only federal judge doing what federal judges are supposed to do. This afternoon, another federal judge issued a major blow to the Elon Musk capture of the federal government. Judge Theodore Zhuang ordered Elon Musk and doge to restore USAID's operations on pain of contempt, writing, quote, the court finds that the defendant's actions taken to shut down USAID on an accelerated basis, including its apparent decision to permanently close USAID headquarters without the approval of a duly appointed USAID officer, likely violated the United States Constitution in multiple ways and that these actions harmed the public interest because they deprived the public's elected representatives in Congress of their constitutional authority to decide whether, when and how to close down an agency created in Congress, end quote. Lest Elon Musk believe that his order to restore USAID was optional, the judge continued violations of this preliminary injunction shall subject defendants and all other persons bound by this order to all applicable penalties, including contempt of court. The judge found in essence, that everything Elon Musk and Doge has been doing has existed outside the Constitution. How a government agency is created and or closed down, how its leaders must be appointed with the advice and consent of Congress. Trump is pushing boundaries in both the clear cut ways, like obeying or disobeying a judge's order, and in less defined areas of law. In just the past few weeks, Trump invoked a wartime statute against a Venezuelan gang even though there's no war. The Trump administration sent agents to arrest a Columbia University student and activist against the Israel Gaza war, a Green card holder without a warrant. And they flew him to Louisiana where he's in custody in search of a friendly jurisdiction to quietly expel him for his opinions that are not in line with those of the administration. What's important here are not his opinions. It is that he has been charged with no crime. Trump deported a mixed immigration status family to Mexico, which included a 10 year old girl, an American citizen who is fighting brain cancer, depriving her of medical care in the process. This is Trump testing what the courts will tolerate and what the public will tolerate. That America's first criminal president would put us on the road to a constitutional crisis probably shouldn't come as much of a surprise, but it's still wrong. And the sheer velocity of Trump's recklessness with and disregard for the law must be stopped. In his first term, it was the velocity of the nonsense that was novel, from alternative facts to Sharpie gate to the wall that Mexico never built. We'd never had nonsense spread with the speed of light before, but that was still mostly about words. Now it's all action, action that must be interrupted. Out of power. Democrats can't make laws or hold official hearings. The midterms are 18 months away. That's why Democrats are holding town halls in Republican districts. The courts are doing or at least trying hard to do their constitutional duty. And now it's time for people to do theirs. Whatever that looks like protest, speak up. Don't let Donald Trump reach escape velocity on the rule of law. Knitting off our discussion tonight is the former United States Court of Appeals Judge J. Michael Ludig, a man who has stood up and spoke when the time called for it. Judge, it's a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you for being with us tonight.
- [11:40]
Hallie Jackson
Thank you, Ali. It's a pleasure to be with you.
- [11:42]
Ali Velshi
I want to ask you about Justice Roberts comments today. It's unusual for Judge Roberts to get Justice Roberts to get involved in political discussions, but this talk about impeachment caused him to feel that he had to say something. Tell me a little bit more about this.
- [11:59]
Hallie Jackson
The president of the United States has essentially declared war on the rule of law in America. And in the past few weeks, as you explained, the president himself has led a full frontal assault on the Constitution, the rule of law, the federal judiciary, the American justice system, and the nation's legal profession. When the president of the United States wages a war on the rule of law and the federal judiciary alley America is in a constitutional crisis. The constitutional role of the president is to faithfully execute the laws. Needless to say, the president is doing anything but that at the moment. Most constitutional scholars have long agreed that a constitutional crisis exists, at least when the present defies a court order. That's essentially what the president is doing today and what it appears he intends to do in the future. This is very intentional, very deliberate by the president. As you know, he, the vice president and Elon Musk have been taunting the federal courts for months now, suggesting that the president would soon defy the federal courts. Elon Musk, I recall, called for an immediate wave of judicial impeachments, not just one against all judges who issue orders blocking the power of the executive branch to unilaterally overhaul the government. The president obviously believes that the federal courts are just one more of federal government institutions that has been weaponized bipartisan actors, in his words. He believes, apparently, that he was elected to rid the nation of these weaponized partisan actors. Now, as of today, we know that all of this taunting and intimidation was toward the end of provoking this constitutional crisis today.
- [14:22]
Ali Velshi
Let me ask you, what happens when Donald Trump actually defies a federal judge or federal court order, putting aside the impeachment thing? Impeachment exists for a reason. It's been used very rarely for judges, but it's actually about misconduct. Usually it's not. It's not about whether you agree with what a judge rules. But what happens when Donald Trump says, I'm not participating in this process, I'm not doing this. I'm not providing the documents you need. I'm not undoing whatever it is the court just told me to undo?
- [14:51]
Hallie Jackson
Well, the first thing to understand, Allie, is that no president in the United of the United States, in The country's almost 250 year history has defied a federal court order. To my knowledge, every president has followed the process for appealing a judicial order, the process that the Chief justice referenced in his statement today. What happens? We don't know what happens. But if this president defies a federal court order, the country will be in a constitutional crisis. How does that crisis end? We don't know, Allie, because it's never happened before. As your viewers understand, the courts are considered the least powerful branch because they control neither the purse nor the sword, and they have no effective means to enforce their orders other than by judgments of contempt that theoretically, but theoretically only can be enforced by the marshals of the court. So as a practical matter, if the President of the United States defies even a Supreme Court order, there is nothing that the Supreme Court itself could do. And this has been a very tempting thing for this president ever since his first term. As we all know, he was immensely critical of the federal and state judiciaries throughout his first term. And then, of course, during the last four years when he was out of power, he was accusing the federal and state judiciaries and even individual judges of both courts of being corrupt and biased. And what have you. Never before has an American president even thought to utter one single one of the words against the federal judiciary that this president has uttered every day since he came on the public scene.
- [17:36]
Ali Velshi
Judge, there are judges appointed. I mean, we've been judges who have opined on this administration and what it's been doing in court and outside of court, who have been appointed from Ronald Reagan all the way to the current president There does not seem to be a partisan split amongst conservative judges or liberal judges. Everybody seems to think that the president and this administration should follow the rule of law and that they don't seem to be doing that. This doesn't seem to be falling along partisan lines as far as the judiciary goes.
- [18:09]
Hallie Jackson
This is not a partisan or political issue, Hallie. This is literally a question of law and of constitutional law and specifically whether the president of the United States of America must abide by the law just like everyone else. Allie I know personally that the federal judiciary is shaken by these recent attacks by the president of the United States. But I also know that they are unshaken in their resolve to honor their oath to the Constitution. It's the president who has wanted this war ever since his first term in office. Well, he's going to get what he wanted. Of course he cannot win this war. The point is, what on earth is a president of the United States of America doing waging war against the rule of law in America and the federal judiciary? Unless he beats an immediate retreat alley, he will be a lame duck long or worse even before his political honeymoon comes to an end.
- [19:44]
Ali Velshi
Well, from your lips to the American people's ears, Judge, good to see you as always. Thank you for being with us tonight. Judge J. Michael Ludig. All right, quick note. Last night, the Last Word reported on excerpts of an interview between the director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard and an Indian TV news network in which she said Trump was good friends with a world leader. Now, we said that world leader was Vladimir Putin, but the full interview was subsequently released and it showed that Gabbard was refused was referring to Donald Trump and the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. All right, coming up, voting is already underway in a critical state Supreme Court election in Wisconsin that could determine the future of workers rights of abortion and a range of other issues in that state. And Elon Musk is spending a huge amount of money to give his candidate the edge. The liberal candidate in the race, Judge Susan Crawford, joins us next.
- [20:39]
MSNBC Announcer
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- [20:46]
Susan Crawford
Let's get up to speed. We've got some breaking news right now.
- [20:49]
MSNBC Announcer
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [20:50]
Ben Rhodes
There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.
- [20:55]
MSNBC Announcer
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [21:21]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
Now is the time, so we're going to do it.
- [21:23]
MSNBC Announcer
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [21:27]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?
- [21:33]
MSNBC Announcer
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- [21:49]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [21:54]
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- [22:11]
Susan Crawford
This administration has stopped all of us in our tracks. Seniors and disabled people will pay the price. My family will pay the price. Price. Our communities will pay the price. The broader world will pay the price. How do we fix this?
- [22:27]
Ali Velshi
Most Americans, worried and frustrated about the havoc that Elon Musk and Donald Trump are wreaking on this country are not going to have the chance to voice their fury at the ballot box anytime soon. But that woman you just saw at a town hall event tonight in Wisconsin doesn't have to wait too long because across Wisconsin, early voting started today in an April 1 statewide race where Elon Musk is on the ballot. Not liter, but his candidate of choice is the race is for an open seat on the Wisconsin State Supreme Court. On the ballot is the liberal candidate, the former prosecutor and current county judge Susan Crawford, and conservative candidate Brad Schimmel, former Wisconsin state attorney general who's now also a county judge. Just three days after Inauguration Day, Musk turned his attention to this race, saying people should vote Republican. His reasoning? A lie about voter fraud in Wisconsin that I'm not going to do him the favor of repeating. Then came the cash. A lot of it. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports spending in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race could ultimately top $100 million, doubling the record breaking spending from the race for the high court just two years ago, the executive director of an election watchdog group said Monday. The race has featured More than $11 million in spending by Elon Musk, the billionaire and close advisor to President Donald Trump, and a seven figure counter initiative by Democratic Party leaders dubbed the People v. Elon Musk, end quote. A column defining the stakes of this race by the Washington Post's Karen Tumulty carries this headline, why Wisconsin Supreme Court Race Might be the most important of 2025. In it she writes, the race to fill a single open court seat with a 10 year term has ramifications not only for abortion rights, where the two contenders in the past expressed vastly different views, but also for how elections are conducted in what was last year's most closely contested presidential swing state. It could also determine whether two congressional districts will be redrawn and put in easier reach of Democrats, which could affect control of the U.S. house. The next court may also decide the fate of a Republican driven 2011 law that ended collective bargaining for most Wisconsin public employee unions. Joining us now is Judge Susan Crawford, a judge for Dane County, Wisconsin, which includes the capital city Madison. She's a candidate for the Wisconsin State Supreme Court. Judge Crawford, welcome to the show. Thank you for being with us tonight.
- [24:56]
Susan Crawford
Thanks for having me.
- [24:57]
Ali Velshi
Ali, talk to me about this election because there are some super specific Wisconsin issues and there's also this possibility that this is some kind of litmus test or a release valve after several weeks or a couple of months of a trial administration. What's your sense from talking to voters, what do they think this is all about?
- [25:20]
Susan Crawford
Right. Well, in Wisconsin, voters understand that this is a really important election, that it is going to decide their fundamental rights and freedoms and our future as a state going forward. So issues that they care about include reproductive health care, rights for women, certainly issues about our fair elections and the right to vote and the safety of our communities and a whole and a host of other issues that the Wisconsin Supreme Court could decide. It's really an important election. And as you said, you know, I think people are looking at it more broadly as kind of a symbol for what we can do going forward when somebody like Elon Musk is trying to wade into a state judicial race and buy a seat on a state supreme Court.
- [26:10]
Congresswoman Amelia Sykes
Yeah.
- [26:10]
Ali Velshi
And I think a lot of Americans, they saw Elon Musk and they saw what he was doing during the election. But I don't think they fully, they fully calculated that this guy was going to be doing what he did, bringing his people in and shutting down government departments and firing people. Now we've seen that. Now we've seen that. So Wisconsin voters, maybe they agree with you, maybe they agree with your opponent on various things. But it does seem that Americans are, we've seen this at these town halls coming out and saying we didn't choose him, he's not elected to anything. And when we're not looking to run our country or our states like that.
- [26:45]
Susan Crawford
Right. Well, and I think that even people who might think that he's doing some Good in Washington, D.C. don't necessarily want to see him wading into a state judicial race. And I'll just point out that Tesla filed a lawsuit against the state of Wisconsin within days of the inauguration and within days of Elon Musk beginning to spend millions of dollars, mostly in attack ads against me and in paid canvassers who are going door to do in Wisconsin saying things like or handing out leaflets that say things like support the Trump agenda. Elon Musk's interest in this race is really clear and it's not because he cares about people in the state of Wisconsin.
- [27:30]
Ali Velshi
That said, there are people in Wisconsin who want to know how your election or your opponent's election will affect them. What's your sense for people who are not looking at this from a national politics perspective? What are the most important things to the voters of Wisconsin on April?
- [27:45]
Susan Crawford
Well, I think that they are democracy itself, our ability to have fair elections in Wisconsin for people to be able to exercise their right to vote. Our Wisconsin Supreme Court has decided many cases over the last few years involving elections. And if we look at what happened in 2020, the Wisconsin Supreme Court by a 4 to 3 margin upheld the results of the presidential election in Wisconsin when Donald Trump was last on the ticket. And the Trump was trying to throw out over 220,000 legally cast ballots in Wisconsin, again a 43 margin, refusing to allow him to do that. And my opponent, Brad Schimmel has said that he believes the Wisconsin Supreme Court screwed over Donald Trump when it made that decision. So democracy itself is at stake. And like I said, a lot of personal rights like women's ability to make their own decisions with their doctors when they're pregnant and people's fundamental rights to make make their own personal decisions in their lives.
- [28:50]
Ali Velshi
Judge Crawford, thank you for taking time to be with us tonight. We appreciate it.
- [28:54]
Susan Crawford
It's my pleasure, Ali.
- [28:55]
Ali Velshi
Judge SUSAN crawford All right, coming up today, Donald Trump failed to get Vladimir Putin to agree to a ceasefire in Ukraine and Benjamin Netanyahu is breaking the ceasefire in Gaza. Ben Rhodes joins us next. Today, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin spoke for more than two hours by phone as Trump tried to get the Russian dictator to agree to a 30 day ceasefire in Ukraine. A White House readout of the conversation said, quote, the leaders agreed that the movement to peace will begin with an energy and Infrastructure ceasefire as well as technical negotiations on implementation of a maritime ceasefire in the Black Sea. Full ceasefire and permanent peace, end quote. It's a lot of talk. The statement echoes the Kremlin which said after the call that Putin had agreed on Russia refraining from bombing Ukraine's energy plants for the next month. The New York Times reports, quote, the Kremlin said that Putin told Trump that his key condition to end the conflict altogether was a complete cessation of foreign military and intelligence assistance to Ukraine, end quote. And then the Wall Street Journal's chief foreign affairs correspondent reported, quote, and not even an hour later, a Russian guided bomb takes out the power in the Ukrainian city of Sloviansk. Donald Trump's failure to convince Vladimir Putin to agree to a temporary ceasefire comes after Israel broke the U. S Brokered ceasefire in Gaza yesterday. Netanyahu launched a fresh round of missile strikes on the Gaza Strip, killing more than 400 people, according to Gaza's health ministry. New York Times reports Netanyahu said in an address to the Israeli people, quote, this is just the beginning, end quote. Joining us now, Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to President Obama and an MSNBC political analyst. Ben, back when you were on the National Security Council, I imagine you were not encouraging people to make statements like, on day one, I'm going to get to make peace between Ukraine and Russia. Because it's complicated. Even if your intent is good and your, your strategy is fantastic, that's complicated. Donald Trump in two hours couldn't even get an agreement to a 30 day cease fire to not hit energy and infrastructure. And then Russia targeted Ukrainian energy and infrastructure. This is not going anywhere good right now.
- [31:12]
Congresswoman Amelia Sykes
No. And what he's also doing is President Trump is walking right into the negotiating trap that Vladimir Putin always tries to Ali, I've been on to our phone calls that President Obama had with him. He tries to take the beginning of the negotiation as the moment in which he gets everything he wants. And in this case, he wants the cessation of any foreign military assistance or intelligence support to Ukraine, which essentially cripples their ability to defend themselves. He doesn't want any troops there from Europe as part of a peacekeeping force. He wants the full recognition of Russian territory that they occupy is now a part of Russia. He wants Ukraine to be demilitarized in some sense. He wants all these different things. And Donald Trump, after humiliating Zelensky in the Oval Office and essentially forcing this ceasefire down the throats of the Ukrainians, treats this phone call as some success when he got nothing. I Mean, he let Zelensky have it just for describing reality. And then when Putin says no to him on just about everything, and let's be clear, saying that they're not going to hit energy, even though they now are, the time that they hit energy is in the fall, heading into the winter. Ali. And by the way, they've knocked out those grids, it's not easy to bring them back on, especially now that usaid, which was doing some of that work, doesn't exist anymore. So he's treating it as some positive development, when in fact, Putin just told him, look, unless you take my dictation of the terms of surrender to Ukraine, there is no deal.
- [32:37]
Ali Velshi
Yeah, and the terms that Putin wants would be the end for Ukraine. I mean, if Putin got what Putin said, that he told Donald Trump he wanted no intelligence assistance, no military assistance, and keeping Russian territory in Ukraine, frankly, not sure why Russia wouldn't take whatever else, what other territory they wanted in Ukraine or neighboring countries. That's not the basis for a negotiation.
- [33:02]
Congresswoman Amelia Sykes
That's precisely the point that Zelensky and the Ukrainian government keep making. If we have no security guarantees, if we have no ongoing military support from the west, we have no intelligence support. And the perception is, where this demilitarized rump state next to Russia that just got everything they wanted, why wouldn't the Russians come back in three years or five years to take just some more Ukrainian territory or try to completely control Ukrainian politics from the Kremlin? That's clearly what Vladimir Putin wants. It's no secret to anybody that that's his desire is to either completely conquer or control Ukraine. And Trump is treating this like a peace negotiation, when in fact it's just Putin trying to achieve his war aims through the US President.
- [33:43]
Ali Velshi
Let's talk about Israel, Gaza for a second. There's a lot going on in Israel. There's a. It seems like Netanyahu is sort of feeling newly strong and empowered in things that are going on in Israeli politics. But there's also been, you know, I think we expected hiccups with phase two of this, of the ceasefire hostage deal. But this is much more than a hiccup. What happened yesterday.
- [34:07]
Congresswoman Amelia Sykes
No, that's right. And look, the main gap is they could agree to some kind of hostage exchange for, you know, hostages for prisoners exchange in phase one. But phase two was the phase was really about whether or not the war was actually going to end, which is something that the Israeli right has never wanted to agree to. They don't believe that Hamas should exist in any way. Shape or form inside of Gaza, and some of them even call for annexation of parts of Gaza. And so you always had this gap between Hamas that wanted to end the war and Israel that doesn't want to end the war as long as Hamas is still in Gaza. And the step that was taken last night was not like a minor violation. It was a declaration of the resumption of the war, large scale bombing in the middle of the night, statements from the Israeli government suggesting this is only the beginning. You also have to remember, Ali, that Israeli politics, Bibi Netanyahu had some rough waters recently. He fired the head of Shindet, the police service there, because of investigations he didn't like. They've had trouble passing a budget. When he resumes the conflict like this, he usually fortifies the right wing of the coalition that he's running. And that's also part of the dynamic here.
- [35:14]
Ali Velshi
Yeah. And that's the important thing to keep in mind that there's a lot going on here that's not just the obvious stuff that we see. Ben, always good to see you. Thank you for joining us. Ben Rhodes is a former deputy national security adviser in the Obama administration. All right, coming up, new town hall video tonight of a Republican lawmaker being confronted by constituents who are angry, angry about Elon Musk. We'll show that to you next.
- [35:36]
MSNBC Announcer
MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.
- [35:48]
Ali Velshi
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.
- [35:52]
Hallie Jackson
I think what we are seeing is.
- [35:55]
Ali Velshi
Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.
- [35:59]
MSNBC Announcer
Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.
- [36:18]
Ben Rhodes
There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?
- [36:28]
MSNBC Announcer
The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.
- [36:39]
Hallie Jackson
What makes you think that that has no conflict of interest, that he has no conflict of interest? He get do you think he would cut that before he would cut out Medicare or our Social Security or our jobs?
- [36:55]
Mike Flood
I support Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency.
- [37:08]
Ali Velshi
Those are boos from tonight in Nebraska In Republican Congressman Mike Flood's district, which is a deep, deep, deep red district, 58 days into the second Trump presidency, and voters are furious about Elon Musk, and they're scared about their Social Security benefits.
- [37:25]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
What are your plans to cut Social Security?
- [37:29]
Mike Flood
I want to be very. This is a very easy question for me to answer. So, as you know, we are in the process of reconciliation, budget reconciliation. Under the, under the federal law, any changes to Social Security are not on the table, and I will not cut your Social Security. It is a promise.
- [37:52]
Ali Velshi
I will not cut your Social Security. Listen to what else this Republican lawmaker supports.
- [37:58]
Mike Flood
I support Ukraine. I do not feel like Ukraine should have to give up any land to Russia. I have tremendous respect for judicial officers. And for this country to work, we need to respect judges.
- [38:21]
Ali Velshi
Okay, so the Republican, Mike Flood is for protecting Social Security from Elon Musk. He's for Ukraine not having to give up any of its land to its invader, and he's for respecting judges. Is this guy a Democrat? Because this is the thing. Republican lawmakers say all this stuff in public to voters, and then they vote in lockstep with Donald Trump, who does the opposite. But the fact that a Republican in Nebraska, in a Republican plus 9 district can't stand behind Trump's policies publicly is proof that his policies are not popular and Republicans know it. On Thursday, New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is joining Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders for his Fighting Oligarchy, Where We Go From Here tour at stops in Nevada and Arizona, more than 2,000 people in Altona, Wisconsin, came out. Altoona, Wisconsin, came out to hear Senator Sanders last week. Our next guest, Ohio Congresswoman Amelia Sykes, held a town hall in Akron, Ohio, today, where just a few hours earlier, veterans and federal workers gathered outside of a Veterans affairs clinic to protest Elon Musk and Donald Trump's cuts to the federal workforce. Joining us now is that Democratic Congresswoman Amelia Sykes. She represents Ohio's 13th congressional district. Congresswoman Sykes, good to see you again. Thank you for being on the show tonight.
- [39:37]
Ben Rhodes
Thank you.
- [39:38]
Ali Velshi
You know, earlier I was talking to Rachel about this. Some of these protests and town halls and rallies are big, and some of them are small, but people are interested. People are out there. They are confronting their members of Congress. They are asking for answers. And they are worried.
- [39:56]
Ben Rhodes
They are absolutely worried. And they are showing up in ways that we didn't expect. But we're glad that they are showing up. I am so proud of my community. Today, nearly 200 people showed up at a Veterans affairs clinic, a VA clinic where they outraged at the nearly 83,000 jobs that they want to cut. We later hosted a town hall in the District. We had over 700 RSVPs. A very energized and activated group of people who want to protect our democracy, save Medicaid, protect Social Security and Medicare, and ensure that moving forward, we are the country that we can be so very proud of.
- [40:38]
Ali Velshi
What should people do? I mean, clearly they're doing some of it right. They're going out and they're confronting their elected officials, which is what they should do. In some cases, they are protesting. What's the answer? Because for most people, there is not an opportunity to vote for a member of Congress for 18 more months. In places like Virginia, there are elections. In Wisconsin, there's a state judicial election. But what do you tell people who are worried to do?
- [41:02]
Ben Rhodes
Well, a few things. There are elections every year. There are local elections, and those are important things to be a part of, because who is in these positions really does matter to your everyday life just as much as your president and your members of Congress. But I share it with the people at the town hall that this is a group project and we all have to be involved. And we can't get tired after a couple of months and say, well, somebody else is going to have to do it. It's going to take every last one of us to protect our democracy, protect Medicaid, protect Social Security and Medicare, and we cannot sit this one out. As our leader often says, we're working through Congress, through the courts, and most importantly, through our community, because all of the power lies within the government is of, by and for the people. They have the power. And just reminding each of our constituents in our communities they are powerful, their voices are powerful, and that we are going to get through this together, but we're going to have to do it continuously, every single day, nonstop.
- [42:00]
Ali Velshi
A number of Republicans are not doing these town hall meetings or they're getting booed when they do the town hall meetings, and partially because they're saying things that are unpalatable. But you just heard this Congressman from Nebraska colleague of yours. He was actually saying things that if he believes to be true, he's not voting for in Congress. He's saying we should respect the judiciary, and yet we are. We have an administration that is thumbing its nose at the judiciary as we speak. He's saying he believes in protecting Ukraine, and yet we have an administration that is not supporting Ukraine. He's saying he's interested in protecting people's entitlements. And yet we have a, a budget plan that is going to trim more than a trillion dollars from people's money. What do you do about this stuff?
- [42:46]
Ben Rhodes
You're absolutely right. They will stand up. They have stood up and said things like they're not planning to cut Medicaid, but we know that the House budget resolution cuts $880 billion out of the Energy and Commerce Committee, which means there must be cuts to Medicaid. So they're telling us one thing and doing another, and that's where we all have to hold these folks accountable. They often tell us people aren't telling us that they don't like what we're doing. Well, this is a time to speak up and make sure that it's very clear. That's why these rallies, these protests are so important, because they are not going to be able to ignore these communities, our communities, for too much longer. And we're not going to allow them to gut Medicaid, gut the va, gut Social Security, gut Medicare, knowing that people rely on it. And they are going to have to come before the voters in 18 months as you and their votes are going to be the only thing that they have next to them. And it's showing time and time again they are not voting with the American people and they will pay for this at the ballot box.
- [43:49]
Ali Velshi
Who are you hearing from? What are you hearing? I guess from people who voted for Donald Trump in Ohio. Are they getting what they thought they were getting?
- [43:59]
Ben Rhodes
So my district is one of the most evenly divided districts in the entire country. About 100 votes separated Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris. So I hear a lot of people saying, stop this immediately. I hear a lot of people saying continue on, support all of these activities. But I hear a lot more folks saying, we voted for this, but this is not exactly what we thought we were getting. Can you slow it down? Can you make sure that they're protecting our Social Security? Can you make sure they're protecting our Medicaid? And I tell them absolutely, that is what I'm going to do no matter what, because it's important to this community, it's important to this country. But they also have to be partners in this democracy and not elect people who have told us, as Donald Trump has told us for the last four years, he's cutting all of these programs so he can give money tax giveaways to the wealthiest 1% in this country so they can buy yachts and go on four week vacations.
- [44:55]
Ali Velshi
$4.2 trillion he did tell us he was going to do that. Congresswoman, great to see you. Thank you for being with us. Amelia Sykes is Congresswoman from Ohio.
- [45:03]
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- [45:22]
Judge J. Michael Ludig
We're seeing a really radical effort to change the American system of government.
- [45:26]
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