← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Conservative activist Charlie Kirk shot and killed during Utah campus event, shooter at large
00:42:09
Tonight on The Last Word: Charlie Kirk is shot and killed at an event he was hosting at Utah Valley University. Ken Dilanian, Andrew Weissmann, Brigham Tomco, Ryan Reilly, Jim Cavanaugh, and Marc Santia join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:55]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, there was an outpouring of mourning from the political leadership of both parties after Charlie Kirk was killed today in Utah at 2:53pm Gavin Newsom the attack on Charlie Kirk is disgusting, vile and reprehensible. In the United States of America, we must reject political violence in every form. At 3:09pm, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries said, political violence is never acceptable. My thoughts and prayers are with Charlie Kirk and his family. At 3:21pm, Senator Chuck Schumer said, political violence has no place in America. This shooting is horrifying and I'm praying for Charlie Kirk and his family. At 3:48pm, Kamala Harris said, I am deeply disturbed by the shooting in Utah. Doug and I send our prayers to Charlie Kirk and his family. Let me be clear. Political violence has no place in America. I condemn this act and we all must work together to ensure this does not lead to more violence. At 4:40pm, Donald Trump tweeted, the great and even legendary legendary Charlie Kirk is dead. No one understood or had the heart of the youth in the United States of America better than Charlie. He was loved and admired by all, especially me, and now he is no longer with us. Melania and my sympathies go out to his beautiful wife Erica and family. Charlie, we love you. At 4:45pm, JD Vance retweeted Donald Trump's statement, adding, eternal rest grant unto him, o Lord. At 5:07pm, Joe Biden said, there is no place in our country for this kind of violence. It must end now. Jill and I are praying for Charlie Kirk's family and loved ones. At 5:26pm, Barack Obama tweeted, we don't yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie's family tonight, especially his wife, erica and their two young children. At 5:31pm, Mike Johnson tweeted, utterly devastating. Charlie was a close friend and confidant. He will be sorely missed by so many. Every political leader must loudly and clearly decry this violence. Our prayers go out to his wife and young children. May he rest in peace. At 6:58pm, George W. Bush said today a young man was murdered in cold blood while expressing his political views. It happened on a college campus where the open exchange of opposing ideas should be sacrosanct. Violence and vitriol must be purged from the public square. Members of other political parties are not our enemies. They are our fellow citizens. May God bless Charlie Kirk and his family and may God guide America toward civility. At 7:06pm, Bill Clinton tweeted, I'm saddened and angered by Charlie Kirk's murder and I hope we all go through some serious introspection and redouble our efforts to engage in debate passionately yet peacefully. Hillary and I are keeping Erica, their two young children and their family in our prayers. Here is what eyewitness Justin Hickens told NBC News.
- [04:26]
Eyewitness Justin Hickens
I was about 20 yards away on Charlie's left. I had gotten there probably just a few minutes before noon. There was thousands of people there. Unfortunately, there was no metal detectors. There was no, I mean, there was security by Charlie, but, you know, anybody could have shown up with whatever, unfortunately. And I happened to kind of maneuver my way down close on the side. And the first interaction probably took about 10 minutes. It was a religious related exchange. And then there was someone who stepped up, ironically, coincidentally, who asked the question about mass shootings. And about 60 to 90 seconds in, we just saw, we heard a big loud shot. I saw a bunch of blood come out of Charlie. I saw his body kind of kick back and go limp and everybody dropped to the ground. And luckily there were no other bullets sprayed into the crowd because nobody was really able to go anywhere. It was just like a big open pavilion, amphitheater, outdoor venue, and lots of screaming, lots of yelling, lots of bodies on top of each other. And after a couple minutes, people got up and started kind of running, getting out of there. There were some gates, some barriers that had been pushed aside and knocked over and People were able to move. And I started to move quickly and then kind of realized I said, you know, I think. I think we're okay. And I kind of stopped, stopped walking away.
- [06:01]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We are joined now in our continuing live coverage by former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissman and MSNBC justice correspondent Ken Delaney. And, Ken, what is the latest in the investigation as of this hour?
- [06:15]
Bubba Wallace
Well, Lawrence, the latest is a puzzling series of social media posts from the FBI director who announced with great fanfare about three hours ago that the subject, that's the term he used, involved in the shooting of Charlie Kirk, had been captured. And he thanked local law enforcement. Now, law enforcement on the scene quickly contradicted that and said that the person that they were questioning was actually a person of interest. They did not call that person a subject or a suspect. And then about two hours after that, Kash Patel posted another item on X saying that this person had, in fact, been released and the investigation continues. He didn't explicitly say it, but the implication is that the shooter is at large. Now, there's a massive manhunt going on. I can tell you from talking to my sources, and there are some pieces of evidence. There's some scanner traffic that's online right now where you can hear law enforcement talking about a suspect in black jeans, wearing a black bandana and carrying a rifle. And there's a video that appears to show someone, potentially the suspect, on a rooftop about 150 yards from where that single shot was fired that killed Charlie Kirk. So there is some evidence, but as of right now, we're not aware that any arrests have been made of anyone they believe is connected to this. And it's worth remembering, though, Lawrence, that generally in these kinds of shocking instances of violence, whether it's a mass shooting or another kind of random act of violence, the perpetrator is often caught very quickly. But that's not always the case. Remember when Luigi Mangione allegedly assassinated the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, it took five days for the authorities to track him down and arrest him. So there's certainly a massive manhunt going on with federal, state and local authorities. But the uncertainty and confusion at the top of the nation's premier law enforcement agency is really puzzling and disturbing and is not offering the American public clarity tonight about where this investigation stands.
- [08:20]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew Reisman, how are investigative duties shared in a situation like this between FBI and local authorities?
- [08:28]
Andrew Weissmann
So I'm brought back immediately to what happened in the Boston bombing. I was at the FBI at the time. It was the general counsel. It was under Director Mueller. And you have a. A really wonderful partnership. And you have and are supposed to have a local team of FBI agents who have a very good relationship with everyone who's local at the scene. There also, though, is a massive effort that happens. It's supposed to happen at the main headquarters of the FBI. Why? Obviously, you need people at the scene who are going to interview people. You want to look and see if there's evidence, like gunshells, things like that, physical evidence. But you also have so much electronic data now you are doing so much remotely where you are looking. You're setting up a geofence to see who went in or out of the area. And then every single one of those leads is followed up. You're tracking what's online, either threats that have been made previously to Mr. Kirk or to his family. You want to track all of that. You're dealing with all of the social media, media companies to get emergency orders to make sure that you can get access to everything that they have that could provide a lead. And there's just so much that is supposed to happen and is coordinated from the top of the FBI and sort of, it's real beehive that happens and supposed to happen at main headquarters at FBI.
- [09:57]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I heard another FBI veteran earlier in our coverage tonight refer to a geofence. How does that work?
- [10:05]
Andrew Weissmann
So what you can do now is you can, within a certain area at this scene, you can basically determine who's gone sort of in or out.
- [10:18]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And you can do that after the fact of an incident like this.
- [10:20]
Andrew Weissmann
Exactly. So let me just give you like a really sort of unsophisticated version. You do obviously need to have somebody who has one of these, a cell phone. And let's say you go to a cell tower, you can see exactly whose phones have been pinging off of that cell tower, and then you can triangulate and figure out where the other cell towers are, and you can get a real sense of who has been there. Now, you could have a sophisticated operator who knew that and decided that they were not going to have anything on them that would ping and do that. So that would be something that would be no lead from that. But you don't know that at this point. So you immediately are looking at that. You're going to compare that to your databases to see are there any sort of people, anybody with red flags, people you were suspicious of or tracking or you thought were in extremist groups who were in or out of the scene at that time. You then are going to compare that to your human sources. It's called humid. So it's human intelligence because you have lots and lots of sources on the ground and you're going to want to talk to all of them. And the word has gone out, I'm sure, both at the federal level and at the state level to all sources to see what have they heard, were they hearing any chatter before or since that would provide a lead. And then the FBI's job is to track each and every single one of those down to make sure they can do that.
- [11:50]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Kendaling, do we know anything about the movements of the FBI director tonight? Is he remaining in Washington? Is he headed for the scene? Is everything that he's putting out coming from his office in FBI headquarters?
- [12:04]
Bubba Wallace
Yeah, I don't have that information. Lawrence Kash Patel is not known to sort of publicly broadcast his movements except in narrow instances when he wants those to be known. I have no information that he is heading to the scene, but it's not outside of the realm of possibility. What's clear is that the information flow to him has not been accurate or he is not interpreting it correctly because it was just remarkable to have him say that essentially imply that the shooter had been caught and then two hours later announcing that that person was not in fact the shooter and had been released. That just doesn't happen in these situations. And it's also worth noting a couple of things. And again, we don't know. Look, I've been talking to people all night who assure me that very competent and capable FBI and other federal agents are bringing all the resources to bear to try to hunt down this shooter. But it's also true that the special agent in charge of the Salt Lake City field office was unceremoniously fired some weeks ago. This is a decorated, well regarded Pakistani American female agent who joined the Bureau after 911 and spent years doing counterterrorism work. So you have a new agent in charge of that office. Whether that is having an impact on the response and on the communication and information flow remains to be seen. But it's something that the public should know about. And the public should also know that we reporters who cover the FBI have been hearing for months now that many FBI agents who have been devoted to domestic terrorism, in particular domestic terrorism squads and those working on domestic terrorism cases have been diverted to the immigration enforcement effort, which is the thing that the FBI normally does not do. They've been required to go out on patrol some full time. Some have just walked away from their domestic terrorism duties. And this is at a time when, you know, as we all know, extremism, domestic extremism in this country is on the rise and political violence is on the rise. The FBI is the agency that we expect to address that. And it's not clear that all the resources that are capable of being brought to bear on this problem are in fact being brought to bear.
- [14:11]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Kendallane, thank you very much for starting off our coverage with us tonight. Really appreciate it. And joining us now is Brigham Tomko, political politics reporter for Utah's Deseret News. He interviewed Charlie Kirk before today's events in Utah. Brigham today began as a kind of Charlie Kirk college event that we've seen many times before.
- [14:37]
Bubba Wallace
Yeah, it was an exact copy of 60 or so more events he did just like this during the 2024 election cycle where he spent around 200 hours on college campuses. And this American Comeback tour, Charlie Kirk branded it as an opportunity to exercise free speech on college campuses, debate Gen Z about these issues.
- [14:57]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And Brigham, what what are we hearing from local law enforcement officials in their investigation as compared to what's coming out of FBI headquarters?
- [15:09]
Bubba Wallace
There are a lot of unanswered questions. They said that there is security camera footage that is giving them some leads, but the manhunt is ongoing and they have been very tight lipped about any other information they may have about the suspect. And as has been mentioned already, two.
- [15:25]
Eyewitness Phil Lyman
Suspects were appreh before being released.
- [15:28]
Bubba Wallace
So at this point, local law enforcement is just telling Utah residents to please call and inform them if they have any information or leads.
- [15:35]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And there was a shelter in place order, as I understand it, on the campus immediately after the shooting. And then when there appeared to be, according to some news reports, an apprehended suspect, that shelter in place order was lifted. What do we know about the current state of the situation on campus right now?
- [15:59]
Bubba Wallace
I have not seen that shelter in place order renewed. What I have seen is the university announced that it will be closed until Monday. So for the rest of the week, I assume there will be law enforcement activity there, but students are told to stay away from campus.
- [16:14]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Brigham Tomko, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And Andrew the as you go forward, what are you looking for in terms of next investigative step that we might let's assume for a moment. If we were to go another 24 hours or some period of time without any apprehending of anyone, what are the things that the investigation could be public about in the meantime?
- [16:39]
Andrew Weissmann
Well, one of the things that was relatively new during the Boston Marathon bombing investigation Was essentially the sort of crowdsourcing that happened. Because if you remember what happened, there is. There was also video footage. And what went out publicly from the FBI was a picture of sort of black hat and white hat. And it was from local videos that were at the scene of the sort of finish line of the marathon. And because there was all sorts of concern about whether there were other people who were part of a larger conspiracy. Whether there were other bombs that would go off. People didn't know as well as just were these people going to commit further crimes. And so there was a real urgency. In the same way that I am sure the FBI feels an urgency and a responsibility to the public and to Mr. Kirk and his family. To make sure they do this as fast and responsibly as possible. So what I could see happening is if they have video footage that is clear enough, we could see that same sort of effort to crowdsource to say, have you seen someone like this? There was a reference to the shooting here, just across the street from here, of the CEO. And the same thing happened there where there was a video that was where stills were put out. That can really help in terms of crowdsourcing. Because in this day and age, between so many people having cameras and seeing things, that is a really good source. It's like the old fashioned wanted posters. Except now we can do it so much quicker. That is the kind of thing that I would expect is if that video footage is useful. We may very well see that going public.
- [18:29]
Lawrence O'Donnell
We have more statements from more eyewitnesses which we will be bringing to you after this commercial break. We'll be right back.
- [18:38]
Bubba Wallace
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- [19:51]
Lawrence O'Donnell
At 5:17pm Ezra Klein tweeted. In the last few years, we've seen the plot to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer. The storming of the Capitol and pipe bombs left at the RNC and dnc. The break in to kidnap Nancy Pelosi and the brutal attack on Paul Pelosi. Multiple assassination attempts against Trump. The assassination of Minnesota House Speaker Melissa Hortman and her husband and the shooting of State Senator John Hoffman and his wife. Luigi Mangione's assassination of Brian Thompson. The assassination of Charlie Kirk. Political violence is contagious. It is spreading. It is not confined to one side or belief system. It should terrify us all. The foundation of a free society is the ability to participate in it without fear of violence. Political violence is always an attack against us all. You have to be so blind not to see that. Here is what eyewitness Phil Lyman told msnbc.
- [21:05]
Eyewitness Phil Lyman
Well, it was kind of astonishing. I drove up this morning, I live a bit south of Orem, and I met Charlie, you know, backstage and said hello to him. And, and the college kids were there and it was just electric. And so they were coming out, he's throwing the hats. And, and about after we started talking, I thought, I'm gonna go up top. I had some other friends. I was going to go up top and see if I could get some, maybe some good video from up there. And so I was way at the back of the venue and clear up on the second floor. I started to walk into the building and I heard a loud, a loud bang behind me. And I looked around and looked at the person who I thought it was coming from because it felt like it was like 10ft behind me. And I turned around and looked at this, this girl to see, and she used as well. And then I saw some commotion. So people started running into the building. I ran out and they said, yeah, there were shots and I, and I, and I. So then I thought, I'm looking to see, you know, well, who was shot and are, are there kids that are down? These are a bunch of college kids. And, and is he still around? And I know I, I thought, I know he's right close by. In, in, in retrospect, I think he may have been on the roof above me because I Because it was just so close. And was asking the girls that were there, you know, did you hear it? Did you see it? Anybody see anything? And then the police started showing up, you know, did anybody see anything? Can anybody help us identify the shooter? Identify the shooter? And, and so then I ran down to, to the front again to, to meet with some of the college kids that were, you know, helping with, with the event. And they said, yeah, they, they, they observed the, the shot to the neck and it was horrible. I talked to one of Charlie's people and he, and he, and he said that they thought they had apprehended the shooter. And that was the word that went around, is that they've apprehended the shooter. So everybody, as far as that goes, I think was a little bit relaxed.
- [22:46]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Joining our coverage now is NBC News justice reporter Ryan Reilly, author of Sedition Hunters. Andrew Weissman is still joining our coverage. And Ryan, it is two hours earlier than east coast time in Utah now about 8:25pm There. Is there any indication that we might be hearing any more from the invest the people working on the investigation in Utah tonight?
- [23:12]
Andrew Weissmann
No.
- [23:12]
NBC News Justice Reporter Ryan Reilly
The latest update that we have from them is that the Manhattan investigation is still ongoing, that these two individuals who were in detention or in custody or being questioned earlier are not believed to be associated with this actual shooting. So this is sort of a wide open investigation right now. What they also announced is that the FBI has now opened up one of their digital media tip lines or at least is in the process of that. And that's what the FBI is going to set up to collect all of this digital evidence and get that from the public and analyze all of this video, something that they, you know, in the Boston Marathon bombing did as well as with the January six attack. Collecting as much evidence sort of helps put together this, this mosaic and obviously CCTV footage, any surveillance footage from the area is going to be really essential. But also just, you know, user generated content, all of this, the people who are holding phones there, that's going to be really essential to this investigation and piecing this all together because obviously, as you see in that image there, everyone sort of scatters after an event like this. And you have to sort of go back and look at the, look at this and look at where, you know, the shooter could have been. So I think right now all signs are this is a pretty open investigation and you know, they're pursuing leads aggressively. Obviously you have all, everyone on the ground there. But this is a sort of really chaotic investigation so far.
- [24:40]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew it seems the first fact that they seem to know, which is the distance of the shot, that it's over 500ft away, that's very different from a handgun being down somewhere in the second or first row. And it's a different kind of person. It's a different kind of skill involved. What does that tell investigators right away when they look at that map and they see that that shot's fired from some sort of rooftop about 520ft away?
- [25:12]
Andrew Weissmann
Well, you're going to look for somebody with that kind of training. And so there's so many potential leads here. But this is. Obviously, you can't rule out things like mental health issues, and there are all sorts of. Of questions that we don't know the answer to. But in terms of somebody who could clearly be apprehended almost at the scene if they got really close to the person and isn't really thinking about escape, they're just thinking about committing the act. Here you don't have that. You have somebody who clearly thought about what was going to happen next. They didn't just kill themselves, which sometimes happens. And you have somebody with very good skill set. I talked about this idea of a geofence of looking at electronic footprint that's such a huge part of any sort of investigation here. What you worry about here is was the person savvy enough to not have a footprint, not just today, but in the past. Now, that's very hard. But that's the kind of thing you worry about when you see something that looks planned with some real skill in terms of how they operated. Unlike, for instance, the Manjoni case, where, again, he's just charged with it. We don't know yet if he did it. There will be a trial on that. But there. There were so many erratic signs from the outset, and here we don't have that yet. The thing that I am mostly worried about is that today didn't instill confidence because it's very unusual to see this discrepancy with an announce that itself seems erratic of, well, we have the person, but we don't. And that is quite unusual. This is why, and I'm sure the FBI has their best people on this, but this is not a training time. This is where you want the very, very best people who have gone through this and know what they're doing. Because there's a whole protocol that is put in place that I've witnessed as to how to do this. If you're going to set up a tip line that I'm somewhat surprised by Ryan's comment, that seems to be in the process because this is already now many hours. And again, I just want to stress that when you're in law enforcement, they will feel an incredible duty to the public and to the victim here, to Mr. Kirk and his family, to be doing this as professionally and as rapidly and as thoroughly as possible.
- [27:53]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Ryan, any indication of what either the Justice Department or the FBI might be scheduling for tomorrow on this?
- [28:03]
NBC News Justice Reporter Ryan Reilly
Yeah, I mean, getting, getting that website that Andrew sort of mentioned is I think first on the list because the press release that they put out mentions this URL, which is not currently operating. And there's a protocol within the FBI for getting one of those systems going because they had to do this so many times before on, you know, on January 6th, they had that up and going relatively quickly. So I would expect that there would be something similar here, you know, but some of the lessons that were learned in that sort of process is that there were just sometimes the files were too big to send through. It was difficult to get some of that information out there or up to the FBI or so those are some technological limitations that the FBI has been facing along with all of the other myriad of challenges, challenges that they're facing right now and the sort of craziness that's going on at the bureau right now that are going to be some challenges definitely going forward, I think, for the Bureau.
- [29:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Ryan Reilly, thank you for joining our coverage and our breaking news coverage will continue after this break.
- [29:06]
Andrew Weissmann
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Lawrence O'Donnell
The Utah Department of Public Safety has just issued a joint what it's calling a joint statement with federal investigative officials saying at approximately 12:20pm Mountain Standard Time, political influencer Charlie Kirk was speaking at a student sponsored event with Turning Point usa. Charlie was shot during the event at Utah Valley University, after which he was taken to Timpanogos Regional Hospital and hours later pronounced dead. The shooting is still an active investigation. The Utah Department of Public Safety, the Federal Bureau of Investigation are co leading this incident in unison with the Utah County Attorney's Office, the Utah County Sheriff's Office and the local police departments. We initially took in George Zinn as a suspect. He was later released and charged with obstruction by the UVU police. A second suspect, Zachariah Qureshi, was taken into custody and released after interrogation with law enforcement. There are no current ties to the shooting with either of these individuals. This is an ongoing investigation and manhunt for the shooter. The FBI has created a digital media tip line for information regarding this shooting. At FBI.gov we ask the public to please provide any information they may have to this tip line. DPS's state crime lab, along with all law enforcement involved, are working multiple active crime scenes. These were identified based on where the victim was shot as well as the locations where the suspect and victim traveled. The shooting is believed to be a targeted attack. The shooter is believed to have fired from the roof of a building down to the location of the public event in the student courtyard. Any additional clarifications cannot be provided to protect the integrity of our investigation. To secure the event, UVU PD had six officers working the event. These security measures were in addition to Charlie Kirk's security detail who travels with him. Approximately 3,000 people attended. The location of the event was held in the University Quad, an outdoor bowl courtyard on campus for events. This is a tragic moment for Utah and our country. As we all heal, we encourage those who need help to call 988, our state's mental health crisis line. The UVU campus will be closed for the rest of the week. If students, faculty or staff need additional about the Campus, please visit UVUinfo and that is the state of the investigation as of now. This is a manhunt and here is what eyewitness Eva Terry told msnbc.
- [33:24]
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The question had just come up about how many transgender shooters there had been and they went Back and forth. Carly Charlie Kirk answered once and the student, it was a student asking question. He asked him something else and Charlie went to pick up the microphone to answer and it looked like he was shot on the left side of his neck. There was a lot of blood and he went limp and he started to fall backwards.
- [33:50]
Eyewitness Justin Hickens
And did you see him?
- [33:51]
Andrew Weissmann
What happened in that immediate moment?
- [33:52]
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- [33:53]
Andrew Weissmann
What happened then?
- [33:55]
Udemy/DSW Advertiser
So a lot of the people, because we had been there early since around 9am, we were interviewing lots of people just about the atmosphere. And the audience initially thought it was a firecracker. It was really light sound and so then something was obviously wrong. Everyone dropped to the ground and then we ran off towered there for about probably 30, 40 seconds. Saw the coast was well, I don't know if we definitely did not think it was clear, but we ran off to get shelter in another part of the building. We had an under desk. Just contacted our editors.
- [34:32]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Joining our coverage now is Jim Cavanaugh, MSNBC law enforcement analyst and retired ATF special Agent in charge. Jim, what do you make of this latest description of the state of the investigation?
- [34:45]
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Well, I don't think they have any great leads. They haven't told us, Lawrence, whether or not they've recovered the rifle. And this is really the critical part of the case because, you know, the bullet, the projectile that went through Mr. Kirk will be recovered. That needs to be matched to the rifle and the rifle needs to be matched to the assassin. If the rifle was found, there's fingerprints, DNA, maybe hair, and the gun can be traced. If they did find the gun, I'm sure ATF has already traced that gun in what we call an urgent trace. It has those facts, but they haven't told us. If they have now, if they don't have the gun, then they really, really got to have a thorough search of that LOSI building. If I was in command there, I'd bring in six ATF bomb sniffing dogs who can find an expended bullet cartridge in a football field. Their nose is so good just from the gunpowder. And I'd have them thoroughly sweep that building because you know, the killer could have egressed and got into that building a week before, even days before, hid the rifle in the bathroom ceiling or behind in a janitor's closet or anywhere. And also doesn't necessarily have to bring it out, could do the same thing after the shooting, hide it in the ceiling or whatever. So the reason I say that is if the rifle's not found, the guy's not walking out Carrying the rifle so he could break it down in half, put it in a duffel bag or a backpack and go out that way. Or you can secrete it in the building. And so, you know, as a commander, you got to be thinking of the possibilities. If you don't have the killer and you don't have the gun, then make sure that the gun's not in that building. You're gonna have to go to your video. Of course, you've talked about the geofencing. Of course, if he's really good, he wouldn't bring a cell phone, you know. Well, just to close here. Lawrence, I would say this is the important distinction here, is that you used a sniper tactic for a couple of reasons in an assassination. One is you can't get close to the subject because there's security like Secret Service or diplomatic Security Service in this case, that's not true. He could have went right up to the stage, pulled the pistol out and shot Mr. Kirk, but he didn't want to do that. So the reason he's a sniper or long rifle shooter is he wants to get away. He wants to get away. And in fact, he did get away, at least up until now. So he has some purpose to get away. And so his escape plans may be more elaborate than we think. And that's what the agents on the ground are facing. So it's going to be a challenge for them. They've got all the people there that need to do it. The federal agents, the state troopers, the sheriff, the local police. They just got to band together, set up that joint operations center and press hard on those leads. But they've got to get the information out to the public faster to leverage everything they have or don't have. If you don't have the rifle, tell the public we don't have it. We don't have it. We need your help. Do you know anybody who has a rifle like this? Do you see anybody disposing of a rifle like this? Is a rifle like this missing? You know, anything you can get? And they may be able to get the caliber of the gun from the, from the projectile.
- [38:03]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So, Andrew, the key line in the latest update on the investigation in writing from the investigators in Utah is, quote, there is an ongoing investigation and manhunt for the shooter.
- [38:17]
Andrew Weissmann
Yeah, absolutely. And I see that we have put up the tip line and, you know, if it isn't up yet, people should know, like if they have stuff, they should be patient, you know, it will. I can, you know, almost virtually guarantee that, that people are going to look through everything that is sent to them. And that is very often how these cases are made. And this is one where time really is of the essence. This is somebody who has killed once and you don't know if it's going to happen again. That is always the concern and also just the anxiety for the family, for the students there. So it's people should know. It's not unusual to have a manhunt. It is not unusual to have some people who are interviewed and be released that you have sort of people who you want to question. So that's again, not something where you can say, oh, that's a misstep. The only sort of real concern right now is the misstep, which is clear, which is why the FBI was sort of not speaking sort of with one voice. But again, in terms of the people on the ground who are actually doing the investigation, I still would have enormous confidence that this is going to be handled extremely well.
- [39:38]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Jim Kavanaugh, thank you very much for your invaluable insights on this investigative process. Thank you for joining us. We'll have more of our breaking news coverage right after this break. New York State Assemblyman Zorhan is a candidate for mayor of New York City and he currently publicly occupies what much of the media considers the extreme left of our politics among elected officials. Here is what he said tonight in Brooklyn.
- [40:11]
New York State Assemblyman Zorhan
Before I begin, I do want to take a moment to address the horrific political assassination that just occurred today in Utah. Charlie Kirk is dead, yet another victim of gun violence in a nation where what should be a rarity has turned into a plague. It cannot be a question of political agreement or alignment that allows us to mourn. It must be the shared notion of humanity that binds us all. And that humanity, it reminds us that this news is not just that of the murder of a prominent political figure, but also the news of a wife who grieves her husband of a one year old and a three year old who will grow up without a father. And the fact that there are families, families feeling that same anguish right now in Colorado as they wait for their children, also shot at a school to emerge from surgery is the same anguish that too many across our city and our nation reckon with in silence every day as we contend with an epidemic of suffering. We can and we must do more to challenge the status quo of that has allowed this pain to become routine. That has allowed the question of which mass shooting to respond to the news of one that is shared. And it is incumbent upon all of us to repair the tears in our shared civic fabric and to make our nation one that is worthy of its greatest ideals.
- [41:58]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Joining our coverage now is Mark Sentia. MSNBC investigative correspondent. Mark, it seems with this latest written communication from Utah that the at least the public communication of the investigation is now stabilized and under control, certainly more so than it was earlier in the evening.
- [42:19]
MSNBC Investigative Correspondent Mark Santia
It does seem like that at this point, reaching out to the public. We know federal agents are working hand in hand with local police and they're also reaching out to a group who police often call their force multiplier, and that's the public, Lawrence. They're set up. The FBI has set up a digital tip line. They know police tell us that, that today at the event there were more than 3,000 people there. They're reaching out. And obviously when that gunfire, when that rang out, people ran. They're reaching out to people. If you have anything on your phone, if you saw something suspicious, law enforcement reaching out to the public, asking for people to send videos in, reach out if they have any tip. We've often been told by police and federal agents that no tip is too small. If you saw something, call in, report it. We know at this point police say it's an ongoing investigation and an ongoing search for the shooter. Two people were initially taken into custody. They were questioned and released. Law enforcement says at this point neither person has ties to the shooting of Charlie Kirk. Now, the shooting is believed to have been a targeted attack. That's what law enforcement saying right now. The shooter is believed to have fired down from a roof of a building approximately 500ft away, Utah Valley University campus. The school says that are closed until September 14th. We're also told no more news conferences are expected this evening. As you said, that information was sent out by law enforcement. Again, right now, the search for a shooter continues.
- [43:52]
Lawrence O'Donnell
MSNBC's Mark Santia, thank you very much for that report, Andrew. So we won't thanks to Mark, we now know we probably won't be hearing any more in terms of a press conference, conference or anything like that. As this evening wears on, when what Mark's just talking about, what you've been talking about, tips from the public, how do they sort out what I assume might just be a flood of tips coming in, some of which are useless, some of which could be gold.
- [44:22]
Andrew Weissmann
There are a number of ways. One of them is the FBI. The government in general gets a lot of heat for the databases it collects, the amount of information it has on people. But one of the ways it is extremely useful now is that when you get that information, you run it against other databases to see is any of that information pinging, is there something in there that is alerted because you have other information about people so that you can do sort of a faster triage. And then there's also the question of just expertise. I have talked about this in other contexts. When you have Robert Mueller as the head of the FBI and you have like Andy McCabe or Shawn Joyce, these sort of people who've done this year in and year out, that ability to as things come in and get reported to you, to sift and know what looks important and what doesn't, that's the human part of it that is aided by the electronic part to be able to say this is what we should focus on.
- [45:22]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us throughout this hour.
- [45:25]
Andrew Weissmann
Tonight, Riley Herbst from 2311 Racing checking in.
- [45:29]
Eyewitness Justin Hickens
Got a break in between team meetings.
- [45:31]
Andrew Weissmann
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