Tammy Duckworth (3:34)

We're trying to entrap you.

Jonathan Capehart (3:35)

We're trying to entrap me or fool me or couldn't figure out what the actual motive was. That was one of the hard parts. But I wanted to understand what was going on here. At the end of the day, the most obvious explanation that it's just real was for most of the time I was following this, the most improbable because I had never seen senior government officials act this way. Jeffrey Goldberg thought it could be a hoax. Of course he did. The Trump national security team couldn't be that careless or dumb, could they? He realized the information being shared was real after the strike in Yemen actually started happening and he exited the chat. How unbelievable and dangerous and reckless was accidentally texting war plans to a random civilian. Even Republicans say it must be investigated.

Jen Psaki (4:31)

It's a concern and we're going to look into it. There are likely to be classified briefings about this soon, but it's a concern and it's a matter that we just learned about today.

Jonathan Capehart (4:47)

Democrats are going to make sure it will be, it should absolutely be a congressional investigation so that we can understand what happened, why did it happen and how do we prevent this type of national security breach from ever happening again. This is reckless, irresponsible and dangerous.

Chris Pappas (5:13)

This is an embarrassing incident that shows that at least if true, Secretary Hegseth dropped detailed plans about weapons and timing.

Jonathan Capehart (5:24)

Of attacks on the Houthis that could.

Chris Pappas (5:27)

Have put American service members at risk.

Ro Khanna (5:28)

I mean when this level of detail is being shared on a non classified network and this isn't the first time we've seen this sloppiness from this administration. I gotta tell you, if this had been any career intelligent officer, they would lose their job. No ands, ifs or buts.

Jonathan Capehart (5:53)

Two and a half hours after the Atlantic story broke, Donald Trump said he didn't know about it. I don't know anything about it. You're telling me about it for the first time. Joining us now, Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. She is a member of the Armed Services, Foreign Relations and Veterans Affairs Committees. Senator Duckworth, thank you very much for being here. You know the real harm that war plans accidentally texted could do to Americans fighting on the ground. What's your reaction and what questions do you have?

Timothy Snyder (6:29)

Well, you know, the first thing is that none of those people questioned number one, that they were on signal and they were on signal for multiple days before Hexath even put on up onto the chain the war plans and the targeting information. And so the the fact that every single one of those people works on that and was okay for multiple days with using this non classified product to conduct this investigation, their war plans shows a complete lack of professionalism and oversight by the people on there. And in fact, every one of those people should be fired. They should resign. He texted. It's the most unqualified Secretary of Defense in history. And he is further demonstrating that by actually uploading classified war plans into onto an unclassified network, and you're right, it puts our men and women in uniform in jeopardy not just with this incident, but for the future. Because if I were our allies, I would think twice about sharing classified information with us.

Jonathan Capehart (7:34)

You know, this is going to be investigated. And if they come before your committee, what specific other than asking them to resign, what specific questions would would you want to have answered about how this happened?

Timothy Snyder (7:51)

Well, I want to know when did Pete Keseth transferred that information from a classified network so he would have a classified computer, a classified device. He should be in a classified setting. It's called a scif. It's a special room you go into. And how did that information leave that setting to be uploaded onto an unclassified device? Because that is something he had to do willfully. He had to actively do that, you know, by transferring it with a thumb drive or just by retyping that information and uploading. I want to know how that happened. I would want to know why is it that the Director of National Intelligence. The CIA director, the nsa, Right. The National Security Advisor and the Secretary of Defense. Why were all four of them okay with PCASF uploading this information on an unclassified network? And not a single one of them, not a single one of them said, hey, maybe you shouldn't be doing that. We should move this to a classified platform.

Jonathan Capehart (8:51)

You know, Senator, in Jeffrey Goldberg's report, Stephen Miller texts and I quote, as I heard it, the President was clear green light. Is that what's passing for presidential authorization for a military strike? Who's in charge?

Timothy Snyder (9:07)

Well, that's the question. Who is in charge? I have lots of questions like that. And is this something that has happened before? Are they doing this for other activities as well? Is this how Pete Heck Seth is actually running the Pentagon right now via signal? I want to know if he's transferring information to people in other ways. Shape or form is. You know, Elon Musk was just there in the Pentagon. And they said he didn't get a briefing on our war plans for the in case there is conflict with China. But maybe Seth, you know, slipped him some information on the side, because he sure is playing fast and loose with targeting data and war plans when it comes to this particular airstrike. Look, as I've said repeatedly, PK Seth should never have been tapped for this job in the first place. And every single day that he remains our Secretary of Defense emboldens our adversaries. It weakens our national security, and it makes America less safe. And the same goes for our Director of National Intelligence, our nsa, that's the National Security advisor, as well as the CIA Director.

Jonathan Capehart (10:10)

Do you think Republican lawmakers will demand the accountability that you're calling for?

Timothy Snyder (10:16)

I hope so, but I don't have high hopes. They've rolled over time and again for the Trump administration. They might come up with one sacrificial lamb. But let me a scapegoat. But let me tell you something. Everybody on that call needs to lose their job.

Jonathan Capehart (10:33)

One more question for you, Senator Duckler. Since you are on the Foreign Relations Committee, I'm just wondering if you have heard from any of America's allies as a result of this story.

Timothy Snyder (10:44)

Not officially, but again, this is a pattern within this administration of mishandling sensitive, classified information. And if I were our allies, certainly I'd be asking some real questions.

Jonathan Capehart (10:56)

Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word. And joining us now, my colleague Jen Psaki, host of Inside with Jen Psaki. Wow, Jen, great to see you. Great to see you, too.

Tammy Duckworth (11:08)

What a freaking story, Jonathan.

Jonathan Capehart (11:10)

And thank you for staying late to be here on set with me. How would you convey the gravity of this to the American people? Journalistically, our minds are blowing. But you've served two presidents. Explain to the American people why this is such a big deal.

Tammy Duckworth (11:28)

Well, there's a reason why there are only certain channels that are acceptable for classified information to travel through, whether you're the President or the Vice President or any of these officials who are on the signal chain. And to give people a sense, typically, the way it happens is in a skiff, what a SCIF is. It's so secure that you can't bring your cell phone, you can't bring AirPods, you can't bring any electronic device. You have to take off your Apple Watch. Because information that is discussed in a SCIF is secure and safe and protected. That is how this information should travel. Any of these people have access to SCIFs, any of them could go to a staffer and say, I need to have a secure call.

Jonathan Capehart (12:07)

Don't they have them in their homes?

Tammy Duckworth (12:08)

They have them in their homes. The vice president who was on there could have said to a staffer, I need to do a secure call to let my views be known about a national security issue. They didn't choose to do that. As Senator Duckworth just said, no one posed any opposition to this. And the reason it's so important is because there are so many adversaries out there who want access to this type of information. Adversaries who might have told the Houthis, there's going to be an attack. There's details about the timing of it. This is what Jeffrey Goldberg said to me earlier today. The timing of it, operational details, who they were targeting. That was all in this group chat. Right. They could have shared that with them. It could have prevented the operation from taking place there. Who knows what other signal chats they've had? This is information that could people's lives at risk. It could put operations at risk that keep people safe. Can I make one, just one other point? Because I don't think it's received enough attention in generally. The CIA director seems to have shared the name of a covert operative who Jeffrey Goldberg had the wisdom from having covered national security issues for decades not to share in his reporting. The CIA director shared it on a group chat with people who probably didn't know the name of that person. Some of them may not have. That's concerning, dangerous, and should be alarming to people you know.

Jonathan Capehart (13:30)

Of course. You know, it seems like Jeffrey Goldberg is really concerned about the casual texting of this top secret information. One thing that also comes to mind, you know, signal, as we were talking about, you can have it on your phone, which means if it's on your phone, you can be anywhere.

Tammy Duckworth (13:48)

And he makes this point in his piece. That's why I mentioned the skiffs, because you need to be in places where people aren't overhearing you. There are operatives. There are spies in coffee shops, in restaurants. Even if they're not spies or operatives, there are things they shouldn't be hearing about operations. People were doing this, some of them, at least on their phones. They could have done it in broad daylight, around in crowds.

Jonathan Capehart (14:13)

Mm. One thing that might surprise people, the text thread shows messaging is a concern. The White House wants to project invincibility. Trump is Teflon. But it seems they don't actually believe that. When you read Jeffrey's story.

Tammy Duckworth (14:30)

Well, what's also detailed. And I think you're referring to Pete Hegseth's some of his, some of the points Pete Hegseth makes in this chain. And he is, he engages quite a bit in this chain, according to, according to Goldberg's reporting. And he's also the one who shares such a level of operational details about a military action that Jeffrey Goldberg doesn't share it in his own reporting, but he attacks Joe Biden twice. Twice, right in this chain. That's the secretary of defense making an argument about a military action and he's.

Jonathan Capehart (15:00)

Attacking the former president to show that Biden. We should do this to show that Biden failed. He mentioned that twice.

Tammy Duckworth (15:07)

Exactly. That's not what a secretary of defense does. Military action is serious. It should be discussed in safe places and secure places. But that was part of his message on the chain.

Jonathan Capehart (15:17)

So we heard Senator Duckworth say more than twice, maybe even three times, that all of these people should resign or they should be fired. Do you share, do you agree with that? And do you think that actually would happen, that any of these people would either would resign or that Trump would fire them?

Tammy Duckworth (15:37)

You know, I was born at night. It wasn't last night. I don't think that's what's gonna happen. Here's what's interesting, though, because this story, I think there's so many more threads that I have questions about. I'm sure you do. What were the other signal chains about? What do our allies around the world think? Will Republicans do anything? There happens to be. What a timing. A worldwide threats hearing tomorrow where a number of the national security officials on that chain are gonna have to testify under oath. And I know the Democrats will ask them some tough questions. I would hope the Republicans do. I'm not naive. But these are not political questions. These are national security secrets. These are national security information that's putting us all at risk.

Jonathan Capehart (16:15)

That hearing's gonna be lit.

Tammy Duckworth (16:17)

It isn't always, but it may be tomorrow.

Jonathan Capehart (16:20)

Yeah, tomorrow is going to be lit. Jen Psaki, thank you very much for hanging around and for doing this.

Tammy Duckworth (16:27)

My pleasure. Great to be with you.

Jonathan Capehart (16:28)

Coming up, voters packed town halls this weekend the show. They are fed up with the Trump musk chaos and ready to fight back. And that's next.

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Timothy Snyder (17:12)

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Jonathan Capehart (17:43)

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Jonathan Capehart (18:17)

We went to.

Tammy Duckworth (18:18)

A Republican congressman's district, Gabe Evans, who.

Jonathan Capehart (18:21)

You know, he's, he just got elected.

Joyce Vance (18:24)

He just got elected.

Tammy Duckworth (18:25)

Usually your first three job, three months on the job, you're on your best behavior.

Joyce Vance (18:29)

This guy hasn't held a town hall once.

Timothy Snyder (18:32)

So we said, you know what, let's go out there.

Joyce Vance (18:34)

We'll hold our own town hall.

Timothy Snyder (18:37)

We thought, wildest dreams out there in Greeley.

Tammy Duckworth (18:41)

We thought maybe 2,000 people would show up.

Jonathan Capehart (18:44)

11,000 people came out to Greeley. Where was your member of Congress during last week's recession? For many, their Republican congressmen and women were nowhere to be found. But that's where Democrats come in, like Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, who we just saw addressing a crowd of 20,000 in Tucson, Arizona on Saturday.

Jen Psaki (19:11)

And like this guy, Representative Aladdeo, show up here next weekend, say I'm the congressman from Silicon Valley. And we do a lot of things virtually, but I think Bakersfield deserves better than virtual representation.

Jonathan Capehart (19:38)

And that was Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna speaking to Congressman David Valadao's constituents in deep red Bakersfield, California, one of three town halls Congressman Khanna held in Republican districts on Sunday. This happened after we reported that Congressman Khanna had to move a town hall in his district to a different day in order to accommodate the more than 1300 people who RSVP'd Democratic Congressman Chris Pappas of New Hampshire ran into that same problem when his town hall was relocated to a different venue to accommodate nearly 1,000 residents. It's been described as the biggest crowd for a non presidential candidate in New Hampshire history. And joining us now is Democratic Congressman Chris Pappas of New Hampshire. He serves on the House Veterans Affairs Committee. Congressman, thank you for coming to the Last Word.

Ro Khanna (20:33)

Good to be with you.

Jonathan Capehart (20:34)

Who came to that town hall and what did they tell you?

Ro Khanna (20:38)

Well, it was a real cross section of my district. The place was jam packed, standing room only. We had to pull out some folding chairs to get every last person in. And really, I think there was a common thread that came out regardless of people's politics, and that's that they're deeply concerned with the steps that they see this administration taking, which is destroying people's livelihoods, critical programs, is making things more expensive. And so people were speaking out based on their own personal experiences. They're incredibly worried. They're afraid, they're angry. And they want to know that their representatives are fighting here in Washington using every last possible point of leverage that we have, taking every opportunity to stand up to this administration and meet the moment. I think what's also obvious is that people want something to do. They want us to let them know how they can help. And so there's such a critical role for the public to play, and we've got to be thinking here how we continue to engage folks back home. That's going to be important for us to confront the damage this administration is doing.

Jonathan Capehart (21:36)

And so you say they are afraid, they are angry. But do they put a name to the fear and the anger? Do they call out Trump by name? Do they call out Musk by name, both of them, or is it just a general anger at what these two men have done?

Ro Khanna (21:53)

Very much so. They recognize that Elon Musk is corrupting the federal government in front of their very eyes. And there were some folks that I've talked to during my time back home that voted for Donald Trump and recognized that they didn't vote for things to become more expensive, for the tariffs which are creating economic chaos, for the firings that we've seen of vital federal employees, including at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in my district. So I think regardless of where people are coming from, they're recognizing that this is a critical moment for our democracy. There's an opportunity for people to be engaged here, and we've got to figure out ways that we can ensure that that activism continues, that it's not just a one off. Folks showing up at a town hall meeting is critically important, but people have to organize in their communities. They've got to show up at rallies. They've got to write letters to the editor. They've got to engage at the community level. We really have to have a full accounting for the damage that's being done right now and personalize it in terms of local impacts.

Jonathan Capehart (22:50)

Let me get you on one more thing, Congressman Pappas. You submitted, you just wrapped up Your tour of 10 New Hampshire counties as you consider a run for Senator Jeanne Shaheen's open U.S. senate seat. As we know, New Hampshire has some very Trumpy parts. What did you hear from those voters?

Ro Khanna (23:07)

Well, I think folks across New Hampshire, and this is a very purple state, it was within 3 percentage points in the last presidential election. Folks across New Hampshire are pretty practical. They know how to work together at the local level to solve problems. There's a long standing pent up frustration with Washington, D.C. and the pace at which things move and the fact that there are obvious priorities that don't get addressed. And so right now, it's all about the cost of living. It's about the housing crunch that we're experiencing, the fact that childcare is out of reach to far too many families right now, and the fact that our economy is moving in the wrong direction. The tariffs are not only raising costs for our families and businesses, we're seeing the cancellation of vacations from Canadian tourists that are really important to our travel and tourism economy, which is the largest industry in New Hampshire. So people are seeing local impacts here. They're deeply concerned about the economy. They want folks to try to bridge the divide here in Washington to get things done. I hope there are some opportunities to do that, but we've got to be standing up when the administration is pushing policies that are hurting people.

Jonathan Capehart (24:10)

New Hampshire Congressman Chris Pappas, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word. And here is more of what Congressman Khanna had to say yesterday in deep red Bakersfield.

Jen Psaki (24:22)

If we are indifferent when Donald Trump comes after the trans community, if we are indifferent when he comes after the LGBTQ community, if we are different, indifferent when he comes after the Venezuelan community, when he comes after the Muslim community, when he comes after women, then soon he will come after us. We need to stand for principle in this country.

Jonathan Capehart (24:47)

And joining us now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He is a member of the House Oversight and Armed Services Committee. Congressman Khanna Always good to see you. Thanks for coming. Great to be back to the last word. So did the concerns of residents in the Republican districts you visited differ from the concerns you're hearing from constituents in your own district?

Jen Psaki (25:10)

Actually, no. You know what surprised me is people's emotion. I mean, there were two women who broke down in tears, just wanted to be hugged. One person said she works in a senior center and if you cut Medicaid, it's a death sentence for the people living there. Someone else talked about her kid who is disabled, autism, and what it would mean if Medicaid is cut. This is not politics, Jonathan. This is human beings who are going to suffer because of cruelty.

Jonathan Capehart (25:42)

You know, you held town halls in the districts of Republican Congressman David Valadao. We've mentioned before, but also Ken Calvert and Young Kim and Politico reports I'm going to quote here. Valadao, Calvert, and a spokesperson for Kim all responded with variations of the same, of the same theme, brushing off Khanna's visit as a political stunt. All three of their districts had shifted further right in 2024 compared to four years prior, a reflection of just how much ground Democrats have lost even in the blue bastion of California. Congressman, what's your response to that?

Jen Psaki (26:16)

I wish they could just meet some of these constituents. I wish could meet the mom who had a baby in NICU and now who's 2 years old and needs home care for her child to survive and is fearful she's not going to have home care, fearful her son isn't going to be able to go to school and get an IEP program. This isn't games. I want them to meet these folks. I want them to rethink their votes on the cuts in Medicaid, the cuts in funding for kids with disabilities, the cuts in funding for schools. You know, if a congressperson showed up to my district and had 1,000 people there, I would want to know what that person was doing there and what these constituents wanted.

Jonathan Capehart (26:56)

What do you think Democratic leaders should do?

Jen Psaki (26:59)

I think what I kept hearing is give us a plan. You know, I kept invoking John Lewis and the civil rights movement. And someone said to me, you know what? The civil rights movement had leaders. There was John Lewis, Martin Luther King, Fannie Lou Hamer, Ella Baker telling us what to do. We need leaders telling us what to do. I think what we people are raising their hand, saying, what should we do? We need someone saying, you can phone, bank, you can knock on doors, you can take literature and let's do it in 30 red districts across the country. Let's start running a campaign in these districts. Doesn't have to be a candidate, but to get the facts out about what these Medicaid cuts are going to mean, what these education cuts are going to mean to schools.

Jonathan Capehart (27:38)

You are on the House Armed Services Committee, correct? Yeah. So I can't have you sit here and not ask you about the huge story from the Atlantic. Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor of the Atlantic, with his big story about how he was looped in on a group text chain with the national security high command plotting out what the bombing campaign against the Houthis. Just your reaction to that being done on Signal, a publicly available app.

Jen Psaki (28:09)

The irony of it, this guy who's firing the previous Joint Chiefs of Staff because of dei, getting rid of people who are black and women because they may not be qualified. And guess what? He turns out to be the most incompetent, unqualified person there. I want to start talking about merit in this country and how Donald Trump has appointed the least meritorious people to these jobs and how people in the Biden administration actually served with distinction. That's the real merit conversation.

Jonathan Capehart (28:39)

We're going to leave it right there. Congressman Bro Khanna of California, thank you very much. Thank you for coming to the Last Word. And breaking news. The Trump administration tonight says it will not answer the simple questions a federal judge has demanded in order to determine if the administration defied a federal court order. That's next. You see where your business can go. To get there, you may need another 10 trucks. At Century Insurance, we put more than 115 years of industry experience to work to help protect you as you launch a new delivery service or expand into a new region and reach your business goals. Sentry right by you. Property and casualty coverages are underwritten and safety services are provided by a member of the Sentry Insurance group, Stevens Point, Wisconsin. For a complete listing of companies, visit sentry.com policies, coverages, benefits and discounts are not available in all states. E Policy for complete coverage details.

Timothy Snyder (29:34)

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Chris Pappas (30:05)

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Jonathan Capehart (30:40)

Breaking news tonight, the Trump administration now says it will refuse to answer a federal judge's very basic questions about the administration's alleged defiance of his order earlier this month to turnaround planes deporting Venezuelan migrants. In the new filing, Attorney General Pam Bondi wrote that no further information will be provided in response to the court's March 18, 2020 five minute order based on the state secrets privilege. This comes after that Same federal judge, U.S. district Judge James Boasberg, left his restraining order in place blocking the Trump administration from summarily expelling Venezuelan migrants without due process. In his ruling today, the judge also possibly set the stage for a contempt finding when he wrote that the, quote, most reasonable inference is that the Trump administration hustled people onto those planes in the hopes of evading an injunction. Separately, this case could end up before the Supreme Court. Today, a federal appeals court heard arguments about Trump's invocation of the Alien Enemies Act.

Timothy Snyder (31:47)

If the government says we don't have to give process for that, then y'all.

Tammy Duckworth (31:53)

Could have hooked me up on Saturday.

Timothy Snyder (31:54)

And throw me on a plane thinking I'm a member of Trendaragua and giving me no chance to protest it and say somehow it's a violation of presidential.

Joyce Vance (32:05)

War powers for me to say, excuse me, no, I'm not.

Tammy Duckworth (32:08)

I'd like a hearing.

Jonathan Capehart (32:11)

Joining us now, Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney and a professor at the University of Alabama Law, University of Alabama School of Law. She is the co host of the podcast Hashtag Sisters in Law and an MSNBC legal analyst. Joyce, thank you for being here. What happens now that the Trump administration has invoked the state's state secrets privilege?

Joyce Vance (32:37)

Well, that's really a great question because normally you would expect that that would end the matter. You know, this is a common law doctrine. The Supreme Court has endorsed it. And we all understand that there can be situations where the executive, the president, understands a unique set of facts and why they need to be protected and is permitted to invoke this doctrine in Order to protect national security. It's not clear that that situation holds up here because usually we're talking about a non trivial interest in protecting information and we're talking about information that needs to be protected. And in this case, some of those baseline assumptions may not hold up because we have the serious matter of the appearing to violate a court's order. And at the same time, much of this information is public domain. And while that doesn't normally defeat the privilege in this case, the way that that information has been released by the government itself, through videos, through conversations about what they're doing, may well mean that the state secrets immunity does not apply in this situation.

Jonathan Capehart (33:51)

Joyce, did Judge Boasberg's, Did Judge Boasberg tip his hand at all about whether he'd find the Trump administration violated his order and what could happen if he finds them in contempt?

Joyce Vance (34:05)

Yeah, so, you know, I don't think he did tip his hand. It's clear he's not pleased with what they did. But he's also a meticulous judge. He wants to make sure that they technically violated his order, and that's why he's seeking this information from them. Legalearnt, arguing for the ACLU in papers in this regard, has said that the judge has all of the information he needs to make that determination. And the judge may well take that route and decide he doesn't need anything else. And it's possible to duck the entire secrets issue. And the question is, what does he do if he decides that there's a contempt situation here by the government? He has a number of options and of course the nuclear weapons one would be to jump straight to criminal contempt and to hold some of the government officials involved in the contempt accountable for what they've done.

Jonathan Capehart (34:58)

Joyce, if this case reaches the Supreme Court, what are the legal issues the justices could decide and what's at stake?

Joyce Vance (35:07)

Yes, so right now we're looking at preliminary procedural issues involving a temporary restraining order that's just meant to freeze the status quo in case so the judge to freeze it in place so that the judge can get his arms around the issues in the case. But the substantive issues here are important and difficult ones. The Trump administration has claimed that there has been an invasion by a foreign country, or at least what they're characterizing as a government led invasion by a gang. These are the sorts of inquiries that aren't typically reviewed. Once the executive branch makes them, they stand. But the question will be whether the Supreme Court wants to endorse this view that the President can look at something like members of a gang coming to this country without technical legal status and consider that to be an invasion or whether that sets a really bad precedent, a sort of steep slippery slope that would let this president invoke war powers with very little rationale for the exercise of them.

Jonathan Capehart (36:11)

Joyce Vance, as always, thank you for coming to the Last word. And coming up, Putin's not a bad guy and Putin has a friendship with Donald Trump. Those are the words of the real estate developer Trump put in charge of ending the war in Ukraine. Tim Snyder joins us next. What did you think of him? I liked him.

Jen Psaki (36:42)

Yep.

Jonathan Capehart (36:42)

I thought he was straight up with me. I don't regard Putin as a bad guy. That is a complicated situation, that war and all the ingredients that led up to it. Trump said he would end the war in Ukraine on day one of his presidency. It is now day 64 and the Kremlin has refused Trump's ceasefire offer, even after Trump himself made the case to Putin on a phone call. The latest move in this so far failed effort is for real estate developer turned Trump envoy Steve Witkoff to go on Russian supermarket enthusiast Tucker Carlson show to praise Putin as, quote, not a bad guy. And here is Steve Witkoff characterizing the Russian dictator as a friend of Donald Trump. When the president was shot, he went to his local church and met with his priest and prayed for the president, not because he was the president of the United he could become the president of the United States, but because he had a friendship with him and he was praying for his friend, his friend, Donald Trump. And listen, as Witkoff implies, that Russia has legitimate claims to Ukrainian lands. The Russians also have what they want. They've reclaimed these five regions. They have Crimea and they've gotten what they want. So why do they need more? Putin's a very smart guy. The Russians are de facto in control of these territories. The question is, will they be? Will the world acknowledge that those are Russian territories? Will it end up, can Zelensky survive politically if he acknowledges this? This is the central issue in the conflict. Joining us now, Timothy Snyder, professor of history at Yale University. He is the author of the New York Times bestseller On Freedom. Tim, first your reaction to a White House official amplifying Russian talking points.

Chris Pappas (38:54)

Well, you know, about 100 years ago, the, the conservatives laughed at the naive who went to Moscow and retreated to a visit with Stalin and came back talking about how wonderful the Soviet Union was. That is exactly what we saw here. Just with everything reversed, it's now the conservatives going to Moscow and being charmed by the leader of a right wing fascist state. It's a, it's a categorical mistake to base your foreign policy on your personal impressions of the charism charismatic leader. It's certainly an error of judgment to believe that Putin, who is probably the most successful liar of the 21st century, is being straightforward with you. And it's sad to see an American envoy just be so wrong about the basic issues of law and facts in this war.

Jonathan Capehart (39:43)

You know, Tim, Time magazine has a new interview with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy today where he said this about the Trump White House relationship with Putin. I'm quoting. I believe Russia has managed to influence some people on the White House team through information. Their signal to the Americans was that the Ukrainians do not want to end the war and something should be done to force them. Do you believe that Witkoff actually believes what he is saying or is there a conscious decision to play both sides?

Chris Pappas (40:16)

I'm not sure there's really any difference. I mean, we, if the top of the American government is magnifying Russian propaganda and talking points, which is what's happening here, why they're doing it seems less important to me. I mean, Witkoff is saying that it's a question whether international borders are actually real. That can't be a question. It can't be something that you give away in advance and it shouldn't even really be a question. And it's certainly true that according to the basic logic of negotiation, the Americans should be putting pressure on the Russians. The Russians are the ones who invaded, and now the Russians are the ones who are refusing the ceasefire. So the US should be putting pressure on Russia. Instead. The idea has been to put pressure on Ukraine. And that seems like a mistake which has to come from somewhere, as you say, either a deliberate or a malign misunderstanding of the situation.

Jonathan Capehart (41:08)

Let me read part of what the Wall Street Journal editorial board said about the Tucker Carlson Steve Witkoff interview. And I'm quot here, Steve Witkoff says he's not taking sides as he tries to mediate an end to the war Vladimir Putin started in 2022. He could have fooled us. The administration's propensity to fall for Russian propaganda is something else. Certainly no one would accuse them of following in Churchill's footsteps. Whether they follow in Neville Chamberlain's will depend on what the final details are in the peace accord that Monsieur Witkoff and Trump are negotiating now. Neville Chamberlain is the UK Prime Minister best known for his policy of appeasement toward Nazi Germany before Winston Churchill became leader. Tim Will appeasement be the outcome of this peace agreement?

Chris Pappas (41:56)

Much as that language in the Journal seems strong, we have to remember that it's a little unfair to Neville Chamberlain because he appeased in 1938 before the war started. Everyone in the world has now watched three years of aggressive Russian invasion of Ukraine with massive war crimes for which Putin has been personal indicted, including the kidnapping of children, the mass shooting of civilians, torture chambers in every Ukrainian settlement of any size. So I think it's kind of unfair to Chamberlain. What they're doing is not exactly appeasing. It's participating in a war which is already underway. By repeating the propaganda and the talking points of the aggressor, they're taking the side of the aggressor rhetorically, which is very bad news. Not just because it's morally wrong, but because you can't get to peace that way. If you do this, you're just creating a situation in which the aggressor thinks it can drag out negotiations, get you to concede even more while it continues to fight the war. So it's not just an ethical mistake, it's also a basic strategic mistake.

Jonathan Capehart (42:58)

Tim, I want to pivot to where we started the show this evening, the gobsmacking Atlantic report from Editor in Chief Jeffrey Goldberg. Goldberg. The administration accidentally texted me its war plans and American lawmakers have responded with words like reckless, incompetent, a reason for resigning or being fired. But let me ask you, how are our allies reading Jeffrey Goldberg's story?

Chris Pappas (43:25)

Yeah, that's a great question. I've been looking at that this afternoon myself. I mean, first of all, our European allies, and let's remember, they are our most important historic allies and their economy is about the same size as ours. They've been on the same side of things, roughly speaking, for three generations. They are reading Vance and Hegseth saying that personally, Vance, the Vice President, Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, don't like Europe and that their personal emotions about Europe are going to drive our policy. Naturally they're going to react to that. Not just that they're not going to like it, but just this. This inability for people to distinguish their own psychological preferences from American interests is very disturbing. And the second thing, of course, course, is that other countries don't do intelligence this way. They don't go on unsecure third party platforms and talk about issues of the highest national security in the presence of reporters. Nobody else does that. And so of course, everyone has to question how seriously they can take their communications with us because anything they tell us could end up, you know, in some kind of informal chat. And let's not delude ourselves that this was the only chat like this. It just happens to be one in which they unwittingly included a reporter. They're presumably doing this all the time.

Jonathan Capehart (44:41)

Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you very much as always for coming to the LAST word. And tonight's Last Word is next. I have some exciting news to share. My new book yet here I Lessons from a Black Man's Search for Home, comes out on May 20th. And that night at 7pm Lawrence O'Donnell and I will be in conversation about the book at the 92nd Street Y in New York. Tickets are available, and I cannot wait to talk with Lawrence about my book. So I hope you will join us. That is tonight's last word. Your old or broken phone can let you down. But at Verizon, trade in any old phone from our top Brands and get iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence with a new line on MyPlan and iPad and Apple Watch Series 10. After all, you don't want your old phone to die on you when you're lost. Perfect. Or for your broken phone to glitch at the worst possible time. Hey, can I get your number? Oh, Trade in your old phone for a brand new iPhone 16 Pro, iPad and Apple Watch. Visit verizon.com today. Additional terms apply. Service plan required for Apple Watch and iPad.