DOJ whistleblower alleges Trump federal court nominee Bove suggested ignoring court orders

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: DOJ Whistleblower Alleges Trump Federal Court Nominee Bove Suggested Ignoring Court Orders
Release Date: June 25, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into a series of high-stakes political controversies surrounding the Justice Department (DOJ), immigration policies under the Trump administration, impending Medicaid cuts, and recent statements by former President Donald Trump at a NATO summit. The episode features insightful discussions with prominent political figures, including Senator Adam Schiff and Senator Amy Klobuchar, and analyses from experts like Michael McFaul.

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1. DOJ Whistleblower Report on Emil Bovet

Timestamps: 02:32 – 25:42

The episode opens with a serious discussion about a whistleblower report alleging misconduct within the DOJ. Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California brings to light the allegations against Emil Bovet, a high-ranking DOJ official and former criminal defense lawyer for Donald Trump. According to the whistleblower’s 27-page report, Bovet suggested that the DOJ consider ignoring court orders, epitomizing a culture of dishonesty within the department.

Key Points:

• Emil Bovet’s Alleged Misconduct: Bovet, previously Donald Trump's number two criminal defense lawyer, allegedly instructed DOJ officials to “consider telling the courts to ignore any such court orders” (Timestamp: 04:50).
• Whistleblower’s Stand: The whistleblower, Erez Raveni, a 15-year veteran of the DOJ, refused to sign a brief falsely labeling an individual as a terrorist, leading to his termination (Timestamp: 05:30).
• Impact on DOJ Integrity: Schiff emphasizes the gravity of these allegations, stating, “We have fools, cowards, and liars at the top of the Justice Department” (Timestamp: 23:35).

Notable Quote:

“Emil Bovet brought lying for Donald Trump to his job in the justice department.” – Adam Schiff (Timestamp: 02:32)

Discussion Highlights:

• Confirmation Hearing Concerns: Schiff expresses apprehension over Bovet’s upcoming confirmation hearing for a federal appeals court judge position, questioning his commitment to upholding the rule of law.
• Institutional Betrayal: Lawrence O'Donnell underscores the betrayal felt by constituents when someone who has served neutrally across administrations is implicated in corrupt practices (Timestamp: 23:00).

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2. The Deportation Case of Alejandro Barranco

Timestamps: 25:42 – 32:15

The conversation shifts to immigration policies, spotlighting the controversial deportation of Alejandro Barranco, the father of three Marines. Schiff and O'Donnell critique the Trump administration’s aggressive deportation tactics, highlighting cases where individuals with no criminal records are being targeted.

Key Points:

• Alejandro Barranco’s Case: Barranco, employed as a landscaper at an IHOP in Santa Ana, California, was deported despite his family’s strong ties to the U.S., including his sons’ military service (Timestamp: 08:37).
• Misconduct by Federal Agents: Video evidence shows federal agents using excessive force during Barranco's arrest, contradicting claims that he resisted arrest with a weapon (Timestamp: 09:27).
• Policy Critique: Schiff and O'Donnell argue that such actions undermine trust in law enforcement and highlight moral failures within the administration (Timestamp: 18:50).

Notable Quote:

“The kind of police conduct that would get you fired at any well-run police department in America.” – Adam Schiff (Timestamp: 19:44)

Discussion Highlights:

• Public Outcry and Personal Betrayal: Alejandro Barranco expresses feeling betrayed by the system he trusted, highlighting the emotional and societal costs of aggressive deportation policies (Timestamp: 19:49).
• Administrative Consequences: The episode details how the DOJ’s internal issues are directly impacting individuals and families, eroding public confidence (Timestamp: 25:42).

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3. Medicaid Cuts and Senator Amy Klobuchar’s Discussion

Timestamps: 32:15 – 38:46

The focus shifts to domestic policy, with Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota addressing the severe implications of Medicaid cuts proposed in Trump’s budget bill. Klobuchar warns that these cuts could devastate rural hospitals and lead to significant losses in upcoming midterm elections for Republicans.

Key Points:

• Impact on Healthcare: Klobuchar outlines that 300 hospitals nationwide are at risk of closure due to Medicaid cuts, affecting 16 million people who could lose their healthcare coverage (Timestamp: 33:58).
• Financial Strain: The budget bill adds $3.4 trillion to the national debt over ten years, triggering $500 billion in automatic Medicare cuts (Timestamp: 35:29).
• Political Ramifications: Comparisons are made to the Democrats’ losses in the 2014 midterms following the Obamacare rollout, suggesting similar outcomes if Medicaid cuts proceed (Timestamp: 36:09).

Notable Quote:

“This bill is about giving a whole bunch of tax cuts to the wealthiest on the backs of working people.” – Amy Klobuchar (Timestamp: 36:09)

Discussion Highlights:

• Amendment Strategies: Klobuchar discusses potential amendments to mitigate the negative effects of the budget bill, focusing on protecting healthcare and addressing the national debt (Timestamp: 36:57).
• Public Opposition: Referencing a Fox poll, Klobuchar notes that 60% of Americans disapprove of the bill, highlighting widespread public resistance (Timestamp: 38:12).

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4. Donald Trump's NATO Summit Statements

Timestamps: 38:55 – 43:56

The episode concludes with an analysis of Donald Trump's recent remarks at a NATO summit, where he controversially blamed both Israel and Iran and cast doubt on the U.S.'s commitment to Article 5 of the NATO treaty.

Key Points:

• Controversial Blame: Trump stated, “We basically have two countries that have been Fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the fuck they're doing” (Timestamp: 39:39), referring to Israel and Iran.
• Article 5 Ambiguity: Trump questioned the U.S. commitment to Article 5, which obligates NATO members to defend each other, causing concern among allies and analysts (Timestamp: 41:53).
• Expert Analysis: Ambassador Michael McFaul criticizes Trump’s statements, describing them as “shocking” and “embarrassing,” and warns that they undermine U.S. foreign policy and alliances (Timestamp: 40:32).

Notable Quote:

“There is no way that I can conceive of that making that statement advances America's national interests.” – Michael McFaul (Timestamp: 41:53)

Discussion Highlights:

• Impact on NATO Relations: McFaul emphasizes that Trump’s comments could encourage adversaries like Putin to undermine NATO’s unity and the defensive guarantee of Article 5 (Timestamp: 42:36).
• Alliance Integrity: The conversation underscores the long-term repercussions of diminishing trust in NATO commitments, potentially weakening collective security efforts (Timestamp: 43:53).

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Conclusion

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell presents a comprehensive exploration of significant political issues, from internal DOJ corruption and controversial immigration policies to critical healthcare cuts and the implications of former President Trump’s foreign policy rhetoric. Through in-depth discussions with key political figures and expert analyses, the episode underscores the pressing challenges facing American governance and the rule of law.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

• “Emil Bovet brought lying for Donald Trump to his job in the justice department.” – Adam Schiff (02:32)

• “The kind of police conduct that would get you fired at any well-run police department in America.” – Adam Schiff (19:44)

• “This bill is about giving a whole bunch of tax cuts to the wealthiest on the backs of working people.” – Amy Klobuchar (36:09)

• “There is no way that I can conceive of that making that statement advances America's national interests.” – Michael McFaul (41:53)

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This structured summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a clear and comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.

[Adam Schiff]

Jen, you almost made the New York City mayoral election process understandable. I'm still taking notes on some of the whole ranked choice thing.

[Alejandro Barranco]

What did I miss?

[Adam Schiff]

It's. You have to live through it to understand that. I think you have to actually go through that ranked choice process and discover that the one who got the most votes on the first day doesn't end up as the one who has the most votes when all the ranked choices interact. And we're going to see what happens.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We are. It's an interesting one.

[Adam Schiff]

It really is. And of course, Eric Adams has thrown the election into chaos. An incumbent Democratic mayor in New York City should be the front runner for reelection easily. Normally, that is, if they haven't been charged with federal crimes and then pardoned, in effect, pardoned directly, actually, by Donald Trump. And so that's the big reason why this campaign has been as strange as it's been.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And we'll see who of these two emerges.

[Amy Klobuchar]

We may.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We probably won't know until next week, but they could also both run still because they both have party lines to run on. So we may still see all of these characters around for another couple of months. That just made it even crazier.

[Adam Schiff]

And with ranked choice voting, we have seen people move up from, from lower down the rungs there in the end. So who knows?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Who knows? Well, it's politics. It's always a little interesting.

[Adam Schiff]

Yep. Thanks, Joan.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thanks, Lawrence.

[Adam Schiff]

Thank you. I didn't sign up to lie. Those words got a career Justice Department official fired by the people running Donald Trump's Justice Department, including The principal associate Deputy Attorney General Emil Bovet, whose last line of work was being Donald Trump's number two criminal defense lawyer and whose next line of work he hopes, is being a federal judge. As Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer, Emil Bove had no problem putting lies in writing about special prosecutor Jack Smith and the criminal cases Jack Smith brought against Donald Trump. According to a Justice Department whistleblower, Emil Bovet brought lying for Donald Trump to his job in the justice department. The whistleblower's 27 page report to the Justice Department Inspector General and to the Senate and House Judiciary Committees says, quote, bovet stated that DOJ would need to consider telling the courts f you and ignore any such court order. The whistleblower was in the meeting at the Justice Department when Emil Bovet said that the whistleblower, Erez vene, was a 15 year veteran of the Justice Department, having worked under Democratic and Republican Presidents, including throughout Donald Trump's first term as President and Joe Biden's term as President, and beginning in President Obama's first term. The whistleblower's report filed by his attorneys says Mr. Ravenna candidly and truthfully informed the court based on the evidentiary record that Mr. Kilmar Abrego Garcia's removal from the United States was a mistake. Later that evening, Mr. Raveni refused directions from his superiors to file a brief misrepresenting those facts to the court. As a result, Mr. Ravenna was put on administrative leave on April 5, 2025, and his employment was ultimately terminated on April 11, 2025. Among the lies ML Bove's team wanted Mr. Raveni to tell the court was that Mr. Abrego Garcia is a terrorist. The whistleblower report says that that is untrue. And when he was told to sign a brief making the untrue claim that Mr. Abrego Garcia is a terrorist, Mr. Revenue said, I didn't sign up to lie. If you didn't sign up to lie, you will be fired from the Trump Justice Department or the Trump White House or anywhere in the Trump administration where lying is required, including the kind of lies told by the genuinely idiotic Secretary of the treasury and Secretary of Commerce about tariffs, the blandly buffoonish lies told by the mild mannered Secretary of Treasury about what Donald Trump's tax cuts will do to the national debt. And then there are the lies you have to be willing to tell to participate in Donald Trump's already failed mass deportation program. During the presidential campaign, Donald Trump promised to deport 15 million people, which would require Donald Trump to be deporting 4 million people a year. Donald Trump is now on track to deport fewer people this year year than Joe Biden deported last year. And that is why Donald Trump abandoned even pretending that his plan would deport only violent criminals. And so now Donald Trump is trying to deport wives and has deported the wife of a citizen who's an active duty member of the American military. A wife who committed no crime. Filling out a security form for military housing got the wife of one citizen who is an army sergeant dragged into custody and deported. Army Sergeant Isaac Correa's wife Shirley was deported to Honduras. She is married to an American citizen. She has a legal right to apply for and obtain citizenship as the wife of an American citizen. That's how two of Donald Trump's three wives became American citizens. When Donald Trump spoke at an army base two weeks ago, he did not tell those soldiers that he was coming to deport their wives if their wives aren't citizens yet. There is much courageous work being done in American law enforcement every day in this country from Hawaii to Maine. But the most cowardly and completely unnecessary work being done in law enforcement in America is being done by the Trump agents who are grabbing people who have never committed a crime and deporting them. Grabbing people like Shirley, whose husband is an American citizen and a sergeant in the United States army and whose one year old son is also an American citizen. It does not take courage to snatch Shirley away from her one year old son. The federal agents who are making arrests like that should have the moral courage to say, I did not sign up for this. They should have the moral courage of fire Justice Department official Erez Revenue, who is now a whistleblower telling the truth about the way the Trump Justice Department plans to lie in court and does lie in court and plans to defy orders by federal judges, which they have indeed defied willfully. The father of three United States Marines who was taken into custody on Saturday while doing his job as a landscaper at an IHOP in California is the kind of person who Donald Trump just two weeks ago said should be allowed to continue to do their jobs.

[Donald Trump]

Our farmers are being hurt badly by, you know, they have very good workers. They've worked for them for 20 years. They, they're not citizens, but they've turned out to be, you know, great. And we're going to have to do something about that. We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have maybe not. And you know what's going to happen and what is happening. They get rid of some of the people because you know, you go into a farm and you look and people don't. They've been there for 20, 25 years and they've worked great and the owner of the farm loves them and everything else. And then you're supposed to throw them out. And you know what happens? They end up hiring the people, the criminals that have come in, the murderers from prisons and everything else. So we're, we're going to have an order on that pretty soon. I think we can't do that to our farmers and leisure too hotels.

[Adam Schiff]

They're not going to hire a criminal to do the landscaping. At the IHOP in Santa Ana, California, what Donald Trump just said remained Donald Trump's position for less than one day. Stephen Miller no doubt explained to Donald Trump that if we don't arrest all of the hard working people who we can possibly arrest, we won't come close to anything that can ever be described as mass deportation. And so Donald Trump is now actively going after those hardworking people every day because they're the easiest to find and to apprehend. And the reason they are easy to find and apprehend is that they are not criminals and they predictably show up for their jobs. 55 car wash workers have been snatched away from their workplaces in Los Angeles alone. They will not be replaced by American workers. You will be drying your own car at those car washes. Those hardworking people who spend their days making LA cars shine are not criminals. Narciso Barranco is not a criminal. He was doing his landscaping job for an IHOP in Santa Ana, California when Border Patrol agents chased him, threw him to the ground, beat him and handcuffed him. And now those agents want you to believe that he committed the crime of resisting arrest. An arrest made by out of control masked men, including one chasing with a gun held in one hand that was then aimed innocently, aimed at an innocently passing car. A car innocently pulls up in the parking lot as this is happening and one of those agents sticks the gun right at the windshield of that car for absolutely no reason, holding the gun one handed. The kind of police conduct that would get you fired at any well run police department in America. There were very dangerous people running when Mr. Barranco was running for his life. And he was not one of those dangerous people. This is a story of two videos, both of which tell a story of very, very bad law Enforcement work. Here's the Instagram video that went viral this weekend publicizing the case of Mr. Barranco. In their defense, they think it's a defense. The Department of Homeland Security very stupidly and proudly posted another video of that encounter that included other angles and shows Mr. Barranco running away from the officers. Shows a wildly out of control officer brandishing a gun the way cops in movies used to hold guns before actors learned how guns, guns are supposed to be held. Here is the video which shows Mr. Barranco carrying his work tool, which is of. Is of course a weed whacker, as he was running away from masked, unidentifiable men approaching him with guns. That wasn't the video we were trying to show you. The control room will let me know if we get the video that will show you the chase part of the video that will show you the officer with the gun being brandished like this, holding it out, aiming it first of all at the person he was chasing, and then turning it to aim it at a car. All of that is captured on the video that the Department of Homeland Security then released, thinking it was a defense video. There is no conceivable legal reason. There's a freeze frame of the video that the Department of Homeland Security released. And there you see that officer who is holding out that gun in his right hand, aiming that gun and then turning it. As that video progresses, a red car emerges through the traffic of a parking lot in a shopping mall where the IHOP is, and that officer trains the gun, aims it at the windshield of the red car for absolutely no reason whatsoever. That is out of control police work. Right there. There's that move. There's that move. What is that officer doing? What is the report, their written report, going to say about why his gun was out at all? Will it say that his gun was out at all? Does anyone working at the Department of Homeland Security in the decision making process to release this video even know what the federal rule is for federal agents, use of deadly force, and how it does not allow that kind of use of handguns on the street. No reason whatsoever for aiming any gun at anyone anywhere near that encounter that day. There are hardworking police officers all over this country tonight who are horrified at the sight of a federal agent who has no idea how to handle himself and his gun on the streets of America. The Trump agents are now telling the story that Mr. Barranco was trying to assault them with that weed whacker. And they pretend that the video proves that. When the video does not show that at all. It shows Mr. Barranco carrying his tool, his work tool as he runs away from these people who are coming at him that way. Doesn't show him trying to hit anyone with any weed whacker at all in that video. So if that's the proof, if that's the evidence they want to take into court, they're not going to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt anything about what happened with that weed whacker. There's no video showing that. But the video does show a federal agent who has no idea how to handle a gun. That out of control agent with the out of control gun looks like he really did sign up for this. He looks like he might be enjoying this. He looks like he should not be allowed to do this kind of work. My first work as a journalist was about police use of guns and I have been covering that subject for my entire career. It takes discipline from the top to enforce proper use of guns. And we know tonight that there is no discipline at the top of the Trump administration. We know that Donald Trump has never spent a disciplined hour of his life. We know that the leadership of the Justice Department is willing to and planning to lie to federal judges and defy orders by federal judges. We know that several federal prosecutors in New York and Washington and the Trump Justice Department have resigned because they did not sign up for the lies the Trump Justice Department wanted them to tell. Mr. Barranco is still in custody tonight. The father of three United States Marines who are citizens of the United States. Two of them still on active duty, based in California, where they could be called up at any moment to add to Donald Trump's completely unnecessary and foolish deployment of Marines on the streets of California. Mr. Branco's son Alejandro, who is a Marine Corps veteran, said this about the federal agents who he watched on video chasing his father.

[Alejandro Barranco]

I think it's the complete opposite. I think it's the maximum amount of force and I think unprofessional force. You see in the video where my dad is running with the weed whacker, there's a so called agent running with his gun in hand, pointing it sideways at a vehicle. At what point in our training are we taught to hold our gun sideways? It's always both hands on the, on the gun and your finger off the trigger. The most important thing, you're not supposed to put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire. The guys holding him down, five, seven guy, maybe 150 pound man. It doesn't take four or five guys, 200 plus, beating him in the face, pepper spraying him within inches. Not even the appropriate distance, like that's just unprofessional.

[Adam Schiff]

Alejandro Barranco says he feels betrayed.

[Alejandro Barranco]

It's very hard on us because we've always tried to bring. We've always tried to help this country out. We gave our lives to this country. It's just not fair. And I don't like the way they're going about this. Honestly, I'm heartbroken because, I mean, I love this country. I love my parents, I love the community. It's just.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Just.

[Alejandro Barranco]

I don't know, I feel. I feel betrayed.

[Adam Schiff]

Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Schiff, I first of all want to get your reaction to this video that we now have about this chase that we saw with these federal agents, one brandishing a gun. They're now claiming that there was some attempt to assault them with the weed whacker. There's no evidence of that on the video. And you hurt. Alejandro Barranco's saying he's a constituent of yours in California, this whole family, is that he feels betrayed.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's heartbreaking to see that video. It's terrifying to see that video. And I have no doubt he feels betrayed. He should feel betrayed. Here's this man who, for, as I understand it, decades, worked in the United States as a landscaper, had no record, no criminal convictions, none of that stuff that the Trump administration claims they're prioritizing. And he did what we would hope someone would do in the sense of he raised, I think, three Marines, three of his sons, Marines. That's extraordinary. And to treat someone who obviously raised his children in such an exemplary way, that way to beat him while he's on the ground, it just breaks your heart. It is a complete betrayal. And I think it just shows you the top down, morally bankrupt leadership from the president through the attorney general and then onto the street that we just saw these two segments that you portrayed, this Justice Department lawyer, this whistleblower, talking about how he didn't sign up to lie, being essentially ordered to lie or fire because he wouldn't lie, by the likes of Emile Beauvais, someone who moved to dismiss the case against the mayor of New York, the corruption case, to which other prosecutors basically said they didn't sign up for that. They refused to corruptly dismiss those charges against the mayor. And one of them said, you know, you might find some fool or some coward to do this for you. That was never going to be me. But now, at the top of the Justice Department, this is what we have. We have fools, cowards and liars at the top of the Justice Department. And you see it now percolate all the way down to the streets of Los Angeles, where they're beating the father of three Marines who is a landscaper with no criminal record. It just, it is a betrayal, and it breaks your heart.

[Adam Schiff]

So Emil Beauvais, who was Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer, now top official in the Justice Department, who is on record in this whistleblower's report as profanely vowing to defy federal judges orders, is coming before you tomorrow for his confirmation hearing as a federal appeals court judge. His confirmation hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee. What do you want to hear? What do you want? What would you like him to respond to in this hearing tomorrow?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Well, one of the top concerns that we've had, and we've brought this out in our questioning of all of these nominees for different positions, not just judges, but nominees for high Justice Department positions, is will you obey the law? Will you adhere to court orders? This has been at the heart of our concern because we have been fearful that the Trump administration would continue to violate court orders and do so with greater and greater arrogance. And now you've got the perfect test case, because a number of my Republican Senate colleagues have likewise expressed, released rhetorically their commitment to the rule of law and to the adherence to court orders. And here you have someone, this whistleblower, a, you know, venerated veteran prosecutor in the Justice Department, someone promoted within the Trump administration, someone who's given repeated accolades within the Justice Department, whether it was a Democratic or Republican attorney general at the time. You have the celebrated prosecutor fired because he won't go along with violating court orders. And he alleges in his complaint that he was essentially instructed, or higher ups like Bovet in the department were willfully and knowingly violating court orders. They were making misrepresentations to the court, and they were withholding information from the court. That's about as serious an allegation as you could get. And this guy who is doing all that and overseeing all that they're nominating to the Court of Appeals. So that is going to be a central area of focus, of course, his malign handling of the corruption case involving the mayor of New York, his malign handling of a different case in D.C. where he essentially instructed prosecutors to make false allegations of a criminal investigation so they could freeze federal funds. Those prosecutors refused those unethical acts. Emil Beauvais is kind of the central person in these maligned schemes.

[Adam Schiff]

We will be watching that confirmation hearing tomorrow. Senator Adam Schiff, please stay with us. We're going to take a squeeze in a commercial break right here. I want to find out what happened on the briefing you were supposed to get about what is happening in Iraq, Iran and why that was canceled today. We'll be right back with Senator Schiff.

[Jen Psaki]

MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the BRIEFING.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

[Jen Psaki]

The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Adam Schiff]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Jen Psaki]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail].

[Adam Schiff]

A ceasefire between Israel and Iran appears to be holding at this hour tonight. Today, the Trump administration delayed classified briefings for both the House and the Senate, which were set in to occur this afternoon on the Iran strikes. They've postponed them now until later this week, saying that Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth can attend the briefings once they return from the NATO summit. Three people with knowledge of a classified assessment tell NBC News that an initial assessment by the Defense Intelligence Agency concludes that the U.S. airstrikes on Iran's nuclear enrichment sites were not as effective as Trump claimed and that they set the Iranian nuclear program back by only three to six months. We were assuming that the damage was going to be much more significant than this assessment is finding, one of the three sources said. This assessment is already finding that these core pieces are still intact. That's a bad sign for the overall program. Senator Adam Schiff is back with us. Senator, what do you make of the Trump administration's explanation for why you haven't been briefed?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I don't buy that explanation at all. Clearly, there is something either they don't want to tell the Congress or they're not eager to share with the Congress. Many of us requested a briefing before the President made the decision to bomb these nuclear sites in Iran. We wanted to get to the bottom of, frankly, this very public dispute between the intelligence community and the President over whether Iran had made a decision to pursue a bomb, whether it was building a mechanism of a bomb, or whether, as the Director of National Intelligence testified just three months ago, no, they hadn't made that decision. And yes, they were enriching uranium, but they had not made the decision to build a bomb. So we already wanted a briefing to try to figure out, okay, where does the truth lie here? When you've got this contradiction within the administration, then post strike, you now have the president and Hegsest saying it was a complete success, everything's been obliterated. But then you have other suggestions, and you have now public reporting that that may very well not be true. So Congress needs to know. We should have been briefed, frankly, before these strikes. We should have been brought into this decision. Constitutionally, we should have either authorized it or not authorized it, refused to. But at a minimum, we absolutely should have a briefing asap. And to put it off like this with such a lame excuse just doesn't pass the smell test.

[Adam Schiff]

In all your years of experience on the House Intelligence Committee, were there briefings in situations where the Secretary of Defense could not be there?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Oh, of course. And you would have briefings often with the principals, like the different secretaries. You would often have briefings where you didn't have the principals. You had really the professionals. You had those that were at top levels of the different intelligence community agencies who, frankly, in a situation like this, I'm much more interested in hearing from. If you look, for example, at the briefing the other morning with Hegseth and General Kaine, Hegseth just gave the political spin. His comments were pretty worthless. Kaine, you could have some confidence, was basing what he was saying in fact and grounding it in fact. So I'm not particularly interested in hearing from Hegseth. I would rather hear from the professionals at dod, the professionals within the intelligence community. They're much more likely to be the source of fact than these spin artists.

[Adam Schiff]

And with each passing day, it may well be that there's more publicly available information from more sources than just American intelligence leaks.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I mean, Certainly, you know, we're not the only ones gathering intelligence on this. And there's going to, I'm sure, continue to be public reporting. But we don't want to rely on the public reporting. We want to get the best sense from the intelligence community of were these strikes successful? I hope they were. I hope they destroyed every Iranian facility. I hope they were able to eradicate any potential of reconstituting it. But if they weren't, we darn well need to know it because one of the concerns many of us had is that Iran, having not made the decision to pursue a bomb prior to the strikes, may decide now to do a clandestine rush to develop the bomb, thinking they're better off being a nuclear state than being a threshold state. If they already have the nuclear material or if the centrifuges weren't destroyed, then that is a far more dangerous situation. So I want to know the truth. Members of Congress deserve to know the truth. And the American people deserve to know the truth.

[Adam Schiff]

Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you.

[Adam Schiff]

Thank you. Coming up, a Republican senator who's up for election is circulating a document warning Senate Republicans about the Medicaid cuts in the Trump Republican budget bill saying it will wipe out Senate Republicans in reelection campaigns. Senator Amy Klobuchar joins us next. NBC News reports. Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina, who is up for reelection next year, circulated a document to Senate Republicans last night in their closed door meeting outlining how the Medicaid provisions in Donald Trump's budget bill will hurt Republican states. Tillis also warned his party during the meeting that they will lose the 2026 midterm elections if they push ahead on proposed Medicaid cuts. He compared the situation to the heavy losses Democrats suffered in the 2014 midterms after a rocky Obamacare rollout. According to one source in the room, Republican Senator Joshua Hawley of Missouri told NBC News today, I don't think they've got 51 right now. The rural hospital issue is the big issue right now. I think it's a big issue on the House side. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She serves on the Senate Commerce Committee and the Judiciary Committee. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Is is Senator Hawley right? Is the rural hospital issue the thing that is really tripping up the Republicans? And what does it mean for the rural hospitals of Minnesota?

[Amy Klobuchar]

Huge. 300 hospitals nationally will close down because of this bill for two reasons. One, the Medicaid cuts I'm not surprised that you have senators speaking out about that because 16 million people are going to lose their health care because of this proposal. Secondly, Medicare, the debt is so big from this bill, 3.4 trillion, a trillion of it in higher interest. Why? Because it adds to the debt. 3.4 trillion in 10 years, that actually triggers automatic Medicare cuts to the tune of $500 billion. All of this adds to huge problems to rural hospitals that are already thinly holding on. And there are so many red states that are going to be affected by this. Four million people are going to be tossed off of food assistance, many of them in rural areas. And then, of course, you have the debt issue. So the way I look at this, Lawrence, you've got people that are rightfully saying this immoral to do these Medicaid cuts, but they appear to be proceeding along as if it doesn't matter. You have people that are concerned about the debt that could be solved by just cutting off these tax cuts for people making over 400,000. That would save 2 trillion. And then my favorite, Lawrence, the Oops caucus, the House members that say oops, I didn't really read the bill when I voted for it, the Republican House members. I don't know what to do now. So it's a mess. But the biggest thing is it's a mess for the American people.

[Adam Schiff]

There's reporting from that meeting, the Republican meeting last night, that punchbowl has quoting Senator Mitch McConnell saying the kind of thing that I always kind of guessed that he might say when the door is closed and it's just Republicans, he said, I know a lot of us are hearing from people back home about Medicaid, but they'll get over it. Senator Klobuchar, when they're trying to round up your vote and they're trying to tell you that Minnesota voters will just get over whatever the thing is that you've got a problem with. I've never known that to be a way to close the deal.

[Amy Klobuchar]

This sounds eerily like people are going to die anyway. The point is that we should be treating the people of this country who have worked their whole lives for living with dignity. We should be treating our seniors with dignity, and we should not be giving a whole bunch of tax cuts to the wealthiest on the backs of of working people. That's exactly what this bill is about. They could fix it. They could start over, but instead, we are where we are and they're claiming they're going to go forward with it. Now, I believe they should start over.

[Adam Schiff]

As you go forward with this process, Democrats will be trying to advance amendments on the Senate floor when it starts to move. What are you expecting to be able to highlight through that amendment process?

[Amy Klobuchar]

Well, I think the first is the obvious, these health care cuts and these idea that you would toss people off their health care when they're just trying to hang on right now, Medicaid and also the Medicare cuts. The second I mentioned the food assistance, the fact that you are, for reasons that justify reality, the parliamentarian actually ruled that a number of these things were not even right under the Senate rules. And that's something that I've been pushing from the Agriculture Committee standpoint. And then you're going to have this issue of the debt and the idea that they're adding so greatly to the debt overwhelmingly to help wealthy people. And the interesting thing is, Lawrence, we've been united on this. Democrats, 60% of the people in this country in a Fox poll. Let me say that again, a Fox poll which Donald Trump greatly criticized and made fun of Fox, but it was an actual poll. They said that 60% of people didn't like this bill. They think it helped the wealthiest. A very small percentage say, oh, maybe it'll help me. But the vast majority of Americans have figured it out and they say it'll help the wealthy, which it will.

[Adam Schiff]

Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you.

[Amy Klobuchar]

We may have some long nights coming up. Lawrence, look forward to seeing you again.

[Adam Schiff]

It sounds like that's what's going to happen. Thank you, Senator.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Thank you. Four of them need to stand up. That's it. Four Republicans.

[Adam Schiff]

That's right. So to knock this down to 49 votes, which is where you have to get it down to four, Republicans have to decide that Mitch McConnell is wrong and their voters won't get over it. We'll see how that goes.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Thanks.

[Adam Schiff]

Thanks, Senator. Coming up, Donald Trump today blamed Israel and Iran equally. That's next.

[Jen Psaki]

It's conversation. It's perspective. It's the weekend on MSNBC with three new dynamic hosts, Jonathan Capehart, Eugene Daniels and Jackie Alemani. And in the evening, it's the weekend Prime Time with Amy Mohadin, Katherine Rampel, Elise Jordan and Antonia Hilton join them as they offer analysis on the week's most important events and set the agenda for the week ahead. The weekend at 7am eastern and the weekend prime time at 6pm eastern Saturdays and Sundays on MSNBC.

[Adam Schiff]

Today, Donald Trump decided to blame Israel and Iran equally. You know what?

[Donald Trump]

We basically have two countries that have been Fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Do you understand that.

[Adam Schiff]

Ukraine's President, Volodymyr Zelensky, was in the group photo taken tonight at the NATO summit, where European allies continue to stress their support for Ukraine. Joining us now is Michael McFaul, who served as the United States Ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration. He is an MSNBC international affairs analyst. Ambassador McFaul, first of all, the president's statement blaming Israel and Iran equally and using that language to do it. The first president in history to descend to that section of the American vocabulary for such a statement.

[Michael McFaul]

Just shocking, just embarrassing. As an American, I can't think of more words to describe it and why he's so angry and why he's blaming both sides. You know, it was just 24 hours ago or so that he was praised as the most important leader for Israel in the history of the United States. And then he says that it just shows that he just has no compass, he has no strategic way of thinking about foreign policy. And that's what makes me so nervous about his presence now at the NATO summit. I know I'm not the only one that's nervous about that. It's like the crazy uncle showing up for Thanksgiving, and you just want to get through the dinner without some rupture like the one that you just showed to everybody just now.

[Adam Schiff]

And once again, on the way to the NATO summit, Donald Trump refused to say that the United States would abide by the Article 5 of NATO, which Every United States president not named Donald Trump has agreed to. He says when he's asked about Article 5, he says whether the United States remains committed to it, he says, depends on your definition. There are numerous definitions of Article 5. I thought there was only one definition of Article 5.

[Michael McFaul]

There aren't numerous definitions. And there is no way that I can conceive of that making that statement advances America's national interests. At the end of the day, the president's job is to advance the security interests of the United States of America by underscoring ambiguity of our commitment to NATO. That's an invitation for Putin to tease with that. This is music to Putin's ears. We don't want him to testing our commitment to Article 5 in places like Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania. We want exactly the opposite. And this statement does nothing to advance our interests, let alone the interests of the NATO alliance.

[Adam Schiff]

And Article 5 simply says that all NATO allies will respond to an attack on any one of the NATO allies. It's only been invoked once, and that was for the United States of America on 9. 11.

[Michael McFaul]

Exactly. Pretty clear, right? It's a pretty clear article 5. And to your point, this is a president that doesn't really believe in allies. He doesn't respect them. He's threatened to annex the territory of one of our NATO allies, Greenland. He's threatened to make the 51st state of another one of our NATO allies. That's the way he talks about our allies. And yet the only time Article 5 has been invoked, it's been to protect and defend us. And I want to remind everybody who thinks that allies are not useful. Tell that to the mothers and daughters and the husbands and sons of NATO members, countries from NATO countries that died in Afghanistan fighting next to our soldiers. They died for us. You can't put a price on that. These allies are important to us. And I hope we get through this summit without some mishap along the lines of the F word that was used to describe our Israeli ally.

[Adam Schiff]

Ambassador Michael McFaul, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Michael McFaul]

Thank you.