← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Elon Musk and Donald Trump create chaos with cuts to USAID
00:42:04
Tonight on The Last Word: Trump fires the USAID Inspector General after a critical report. Plus, concerns grow that the Trump administration won’t comply with the courts. Also, Fmr. Secretary of the Interior Deb Haaland announces her run for governor of New Mexico. Nicholas Kristof, Sen. Tammy Baldwin, David Super, also join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Jen Psaki
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.
- [00:32]
Lawrence O'Donnell
There's probably both messaging and policy issues.
- [00:35]
Rachel Maddow
But as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?
- [00:42]
Jen Psaki
The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.
- [00:51]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Now it is time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence. Good evening, Rachel. Are you still on Bluesky?
- [00:56]
Donald Trump
I am.
- [00:57]
Lawrence O'Donnell
You can find me on bluesky@matto.msnbc.com yeah, I, you know, it's the first night we haven't done that in a while, so I just want to make sure that people are that we are still there on Blue sky and kind of enjoying it, to put it mildly. You know who's newly on Blue sky is Pete Buttigieg, who as Transportation Secretary and as just a figure in public life and politics has been so good at taking on particularly his critics and conservatives wherever they are. I had thought that might meant that he would just stay on Twitter, but now he's on Blue Screen and he's tearing it up on Blue sky. And it's yet another reason that everybody should join Blue Sky. All right, I gotta follow him as soon as I finish this little piece of work I have to do here for the next hour. Thanks, Lars. Thanks, Rachel. Thank you. Well, there was good Trump news from the Oval Office today. If this one thing that Donald Trump said is actually true. When Donald Trump complained about judges blocking his attempts to stop spending and rewrite the Constitution, a reporter asked if he would abide by the judge's rulings, to which Donald Trump, to many people's surprise, said, well, I always abide by the courts and then I'll have to appeal it. That's the right answer. He gave the right answer and he didn't stop there. He went on to say, the answer is I always abide by the courts, always abide by them, and will appeal. But appeals take a long time and that's the right answer. We can only hope that it is true. But if it is true, some of the talk you've Been hearing about constitutional crisis has been premature, which is why I have not yet entertained the discussion of constitutional crisis on this program. If Donald Trump does actually defy a court ruling, then we will cover it then. But as of now, he's actually saying that he will always abide by court rulings. He could have given a more Trumpian answer like, well, we'll see, but he didn't. And that's it for the good news today. A king visited the Oval Office today, a real king, by which I mean a king who actually governs his country, unlike English kings who can't even govern their families. King Abdullah of Jordan had to sit in the Oval Office and listen to the absurdity of Donald Trump saying that he would take Gaza. King Abdullah knows that Donald Trump will not take Gaza. King Abdullah knows that everything Donald Trump said today about Gaza will not happen. Donald Trump will not take Gaza, he will not take Canada, he will not take Greenland, and he will not take Panama. That is the nonsense that Donald Trump throws out there to try to distract the news media from what he really is doing, which includes literally taking food away from starving babies, from starving children, starving grandparents. And the person who is helping him do that stood over Donald Trump in the White House today, thereby delivering a picture of presidential subservience the likes of which we have never seen. The most powerless image of a president of the United States ever created by a camera. There it is. In that shot, Elon Musk is doing everything he possibly can to tell the world without saying a word, that Donald Trump is not the boss of me. Donald Trump is the boss of the other adults in that shot, Stephen Miller and Will Scharf. And that's why they are following Donald Trump's lead on the dress code for the Oval Office, which is the same dress code that has existed for every previous president. Elon Musk owns suits and ties. We've seen him wearing them. But today he decided to do the billionaire thing. I met my first billionaire 25 years ago in Hollywood. It was at a fairly small reception in a private home during the Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles. I was wearing a suit and tie, as was every visitor from Washington in the room. The editor of Time magazine was one notch more casual, wearing a blue blazer and gray slacks and a necktie. The show business billionaire was wearing a T shirt. Everyone knew that he was the richest person in the room, and he knew. They knew. And that meant he could wear whatever he wanted. He could dress like he just walked out of a TV writer's room. And so I saw then that the billionaire power move was being underdress, violating the dress code, and knowing that you can do it, because clothes don't make the man. Money makes the man. And today, Elon Musk decided that he wanted to outdo all of his fellow tech billionaires, who frequently show up in T shirts. And so he violated another norm of business meetings at the White House and business meetings in a lot of places by bringing one of his 11 children. It was like bringing a dog to the home of a person who hates dogs. And we all know how much Donald Trump hates dogs. His favorite line in publicly announcing firings of people that he hired in the first Trump White House was, I fired him like a dog. I don't know what that means. Dogs don't get fired. It can only mean that he hates dogs. Donald Trump had no trouble remembering the name of Elon Musk's child because it's the shortest name he's ever heard.
- [06:38]
Donald Trump
Hello. Nice meeting you, Gary.
- [06:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Coming off in X. Are you okay? This is X. And he's a great guy. High iq. He's a high IQ individual. All right, let's go full screen with these shots, because I want to see everything that's in these frames at the White House. Okay? The child was there as a power play by Elon Musk demonstrating he can do whatever he wants in that room. When Donald Trump is your boss, you don't bring your kid into a business meeting with Donald Trump. And when Donald Trump is your boss, you don't talk more than Donald Trump. In a business meeting with Donald Trump, Elon Musk spoke 3,666 words. Donald Trump spoke 2,487 words. Mike Pence never had a day like that in the Oval Office with Donald Trump. J.D. vance will never have a day like that in the Oval Office with Donald Trump because Donald Trump is the boss of J.D. vance. One thing Donald Trump always craved before he ran for president was the attention of the truly rich, virtually all of whom ignored Donald Trump as phony rich and vulgar rich. And now Donald Trump has the attention of the richest person in the world, the person who can literally bail him out of any financial difficulty, like the $85 million he owes E. Jean Carroll, pending his appeal of her successful lawsuit against him, and the half a billion dollars that he owes the State of New York, pending his appeal of the lawsuit New York Attorney General Letitia James won against Donald Trump. And we have no idea how much money may have already passed between Donald Trump, between Elon Musk and Donald Trump. We have no idea how dependent Donald Trump is on Elon Musk. There will probably never be a way of knowing. Elon Musk and Donald Trump proved nothing of what they said in the Oval Office today. Given their demonstrated comfort with public lying, everything they said about government waste in the Oval Office today, which had no specific details and no evidence, should be regarded as untrue unless and until proved true. As soon as they can show us the billions of dollars, what Donald Trump called today a lot of billions, and Elon Musk called a trillion, as soon as they can show us any of that waste, fraud and abuse and prove it, I will congratulate them for finding that waste, fraud and abuse. But so far they have found absolutely nothing because they have produced no evidence of what they claimed they found today. They did not mention a single name of a single recipient of a single wasted dollar by the American government. They both tried to tell scary sounding stories, corrupt sounding stories, with Elon Musk referring to an unnamed woman who he claims gained a net worth of $30 million just while working for the federal government. And Elon Musk could not imagine how that could happen on a government salary. Now, let's just presume for a moment that there is such a woman whose net worth actually increased to $30 million while working for the federal government. Elon Musk said, we're just curious as to where it, where does it come from? And I think the reality is that they're getting wealthy at the taxpayer expense. Everything about Elon Musk and Donald Trump's lying today resides in that statement. Elon Musk first asked the question of how could a woman possibly increase her net worth by $30 million while working on a government salary? Ask Melania Trump, ask any one of Donald Trump's wives how you increase your net worth without earning the money. But Detective Musk, on the basis of absolutely nothing, firmly believes that that mythical government worker, who I promise you does not exist and will never be found to exist, is, quote, getting wealthy at the taxpayer's expense. That's the detective solving the crime. And that is the way Detective Musk solves the crime. He just guesses. Watch what happened when Elon Musk began speaking. I'm going to put this on the screen, full screen, not because it matters what Elon Musk was saying, but because it reveals the essence of Donald Trump and it reveals the power of Elon Musk. When the President speaks in the Oval Office, no one else does. Except today. Elon Musk interrupted Donald Trump when Donald Trump was speaking. And Elon Musk's four year old child spoke while Donald Trump was speaking. And nothing could demonstrate the power of Elon Musk more than his child speaking while Donald Trump was speaking. There's something important in what happened when Elon Musk's 4 year old child actually moved toward Donald Trump. Watch this. Donald Trump did what no president before him would have done with that child. Here it is. Elon, go ahead.
- [11:53]
Donald Trump
Sure.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
So at a high level, if you.
- [11:58]
Donald Trump
Say, what is the goal of Doge?
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Lawrence O'Donnell
And I think a significant part of.
- [12:03]
Donald Trump
The presidency is to restore democracy, this may seem like, well, aren't we in a democracy? Well, if you don't have a feedback group.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Okay, we'd have to.
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Donald Trump
If you, if you, Sorry.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Tell you gravitas can be difficult sometimes. The child actually moves toward Donald Trump saying something to him. And Donald Trump turns away. Turns away. And you watch the child back off knowing what just happened. What would Joe Biden have done? What would Barack Obama have done? What would George W. Bush have done? What would Bill Clinton have done? What would any president you've seen in that chair have done? Donald Trump turns away from the four year old. And then when the four year old continues to speak, Donald Trump reaches out to try to silence him. And he fails. No previous president ever once considered blocking food from being delivered to starving four year olds in a famine, as Donald Trump and Elon Musk have done by stopping the United States Agency for International Development, the most important deliverer of famine relief in Sudan right now, where people are starving to death tonight. Many presidents have struggled to deliver food to hungry people in war zones, but they never gave up that struggle, no matter how difficult. How can a person feel nothing when taking food away from starving children, from starving people? That's what I've been wondering about Elon Musk and Donald Trump, since they decided to do that, since they decided to snatch that food away from children. And so when I watched Donald Trump in the Oval Office today, I wondered, how can a person feel nothing when a four year old approaches him? Who turns away from a four year old approaching him? Your friend's four year old comes walking towards you, saying something to you and you turn away. Have you ever done that? Have you ever seen anyone do that? The four year old speaking to you? Maybe it's in church, maybe it's somewhere where you don't want the kid to be speaking. Maybe it's a funeral. No matter where it is, and yes, even in the Oval Office, you do not turn away. No One does. You can't turn away. Donald Trump and Elon Musk have both decided to turn away from the starving children of Sudan and the starving adults in Sudan. And they were not asked a single question about that today in the Oval Office by the very well behaved White House press corps, who did no yelling, as they always did in the Biden Oval Office. Elon Musk claimed that we are actually being governed by what he called, quote, an unelected fourth unconstitutional branch of government, which is the bureaucracy. And that, of course, is a lie. The people he is talking about are members of the executive branch, not their own branch, the executive branch of government. And they have been hired the same way they have been hired in the executive branch of government since long before Elon Musk was alive. Elon Musk insisted, without proving it, that the United States treasury pays recipients who are on the Do Not Pay list. It was the job of David Lebrech, who Donald Trump forced out of the treasury, to make sure that no one on the Do Not Pay list was paid. And he was enforcing that. And there isn't the slightest shred of evidence that Elon Musk has found a single improper payment by the United States treasury to any person or entity anywhere in the world. If Elon Musk had evidence today, he would have put it on the Oval Office desk. That was the place to reveal it. Put it right there, show it to the world. If Elon Musk had no previous record of pathological public lying, we still wouldn't trust the kinds of claims he was making today. Without proof, without names, without dates, without facts of any kind. Elon Musk did reveal today that he has been examining Social Security payments. That means he has access to information about every single American citizen, including babies born this week. In his examination of those precious and private Social Security records, Elon Musk claimed, today we've got people in there that are 150 years. Now, I don't know what that sentence means, but maybe he was trying to say that he found some Social Security recipients because he says, people. So more than one who are 150 years old. That would have been so easy to prove today. It would be so easy to put that Social Security record right there on the desk, the payment record showing a birth date of 150 years ago and a check going out to that person this month. There are no privacy rights for dead people. Nothing would prevent Elon Musk from presenting the evidence of that mythical 150-year-old. And if in the hundreds of millions of checks that the Social Security Administration has sent out amounting to trillions and trillions of dollars over the life of Social Security. What if it has sent out a monthly check for a few years or for 75 years after someone died? How much money would that amount to? Next to nothing in the Social Security budget of the federal government or any other budget in the federal government. But remember, there's absolutely no proof that Elon Musk has found a single record of what he was describing today at Social Security, Donald Trump claims that the federal government has contracts that are supposed to last three months, but they keep being paid for the next 20 years. That's what he said today. Show us the contract. Show us the payment for 20 years. It is a lie from Donald Trump until it is proven true. And unless it is proven true, the Senate Finance Committee that has jurisdiction over the United States treasury knows exactly how to investigate such payments. And they know exactly what they're looking at when they look at treasury records. And the Senate Finance Committee staff has not seen any of this. They're the professionals who know how to evaluate it. After Donald Trump claimed that there are recipients being overpaid by the federal government, he said he thinks there's a lot of kickbacks. To which Elon Musk said, quote, there's a lot of kickbacks. They made that up. They have zero evidence of a single kickback to a single person. They are telling their followers that there are corrupt officials in the United States treasury who can be bribed to continue paying on contracts that have expired. Elon Musk said today in the Oval Office with Donald Trump's eyes closed while pretending to listen to him, that to cut a trillion dollars requires, quote, competence and caring. Those were Elon Musk's words, competence and caring. Cutting the entire budget of the United States Agency for International Development is not an example of competence or caring. Leading off our discussion tonight is Nicholas Kristof, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and opinion columnist for the New York Times. Nick, you have been following the work of USAID throughout your career. You've written brilliantly on it. Recently I have been struggling to emphasize to people enough what is at stake. Right now. We have the reports coming in of people dying. 71 year old woman denied her oxygen treatments at a hospital run by USAID which was closed down. She's now dead. These we had Dr. Atul Gawande on here last night who worked for USAID saying, yes, people have died already because of what Elon Musk has done and.
- [19:55]
Nicholas Kristof
They'Re dying every day. I was talking today to an aid worker about a program in northwestern Nigeria where there's an emergency feeding center that has run out of the emergency peanut paste that keeps these kids alive. And meanwhile, in the warehouse, there are stacks of it, there are pallets of it. But to get that from the warehouse to this emerging feeding center, to keep these kids alive, they need a waiver from usaid. And because nobody's at work at usaid, they can't get that waiver. And so kids die. And, you know, at a time when we were already losing 2 million children worldwide to malnutrition, we have the resources, we have the assets, we know how to save these lives. And now that has been stopped. And there is that. I mean, women, hundreds of thousands of women are becoming pregnant because all of a sudden, contraception has dried up around the world. In Zimbabwe, the condoms are almost impossible to get now, which USAID has been.
- [20:59]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Supplying, not in the $50 million purchase range, which is what they were talking about today. And Elon Musk said today when he was corrected on that by a reporter who said, you know, that was false, he said, well, I'm going to make mistakes. But then he said, why would we be sending anyone condoms? He does not know that that is used to prevent HIV transmission.
- [21:19]
Nicholas Kristof
Absolutely. I mean, AIDS is one of the great successes of American policy, actually, originally under George W. Bush, was PEPFAR, saved 26 million lives. As American, we should be so proud about that. And one element of that was condoms, which the USAID buys for three and a half cents each. And when we don't provide them well, HIV spreads, AIDS rebounds and women get pregnant and they die in pregnancy. One of the hospitals that they are closing now because USAID in Sudan in the middle of these famines, there is no other place to get c sections within 130km. Women who have obstructed pregnancy, obstructed labor in that area, they are going to die in childbirth or they are going to get obstetric fistulas. And we don't have to do anything new to save those lives. We just need to continue what we're doing. And all this talk about fraud and abuse and waste, they are half a million $500 million worth of food aid is sitting in ports now and is rotting, is at risk of rotting because there's no one to oversee it because they've suspended all these people, the counterterrorism people who'd be trying to scrutinize things and making sure that USAID stuff isn't going to potential terrorists. They are at home I mean, so they have vastly increased the risk of waste and terrorism connections in all their actions, even as they cause children to die of starvation, women to die in childbirth, not get access to contraception. And they seem to think that it's a game. And I don't think they understand that those kids who are dying are just like your kids, Lawrence, and my kids, and like X. This is not a game. This is human life.
- [23:14]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. And they get. What they get away with is a White House press. Look. I'm sure there was someone in the White House press corps in the Oval Office today who wanted to ask about what we're asking about right now, who wanted to ask about starving babies who didn't get a chance to ask a question. But as it stands, they can get through that entire experience with the White House press corps today and not be asked about a single person who has died because of what Elon Musk, with Donald Trump's support, has decided to do.
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Nicholas Kristof
And we in the press, we have to keep pushing them on this because this is where our values and our interests converge. It's not just about our values, although they are enormously important, but we have interests as well. We have an Ebola outbreak right now in Uganda. I spoke to a doctor at the hospital there, and he says that their Ebola response is hugely hampered because the USAID is not there. You know, we saw the Ebola outbreak in West Africa a dozen years ago, and that was stopped in part because of USAID in the Obama administration. And so we are placing at risk American interests and American lives at the same time that we are sacrificing vast numbers of the lives of other people around the world and increasing the very waste that they're complaining about.
- [24:34]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. I mean, so Elon Musk claims He's found the 150-year-old man in the Social Security roles. Okay. But what he doesn't then say is, that's why we shut down Social Security with usaid. He claims to have found payments that he doesn't like and ideas he doesn't like at usaid. And so then that's a justification for shutting down the entire thing. Every major corporation in America has done audits of their business. General Motors has done audits of their business from the time they were invented. They never once said, we have to stop making cars, stop everything, send everyone home for weeks so we can figure out how we're spending money.
- [25:14]
Nicholas Kristof
Yeah. And I mean, let's be clear. Reform of USAID would be welcome. It is a bureaucracy. There is money that is periodically not going to the optimal use. But this is not fixing the problem. This is killing those people who are depending on it. And, you know, it's just the inhumanity of it and the ignorance of where our own interests lie and the recklessness with which this is carried out just boggle the mind. They don't understand what they are doing.
- [25:47]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah, Elon's, according to Elon Musk's audit logic, if he was auditing a hospital, he would send everyone home, throw every patient out of the hospital, close it all down, then he'd look at the books. That's his approach to this. Nick Kristof, thank you so much for helping us with this coverage tonight.
- [26:02]
Nicholas Kristof
Thanks for raising this issue, Lawrence.
- [26:03]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Really appreciate it. When we come back, even some Republican senators are now saying budget cuts actually have to be made by Congress, not Elon Musk, which came as a surprise to Donald Trump today. Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin will join us next.
- [26:22]
Jen Psaki
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime anywhere. Watch your favorite Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app the first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [26:54]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Now is the time. So we're gonna do providing her unique.
- [26:57]
Jen Psaki
Insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [27:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?
- [27:06]
Jen Psaki
The Rachel Maddows show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [27:22]
Lawrence O'Donnell
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [27:27]
Jen Psaki
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com.
- [27:45]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Senator Rand Paul today said that Doge cuts will.
- [27:48]
Rachel Maddow
Ultimately need a vote in Congress.
- [27:50]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Do you agree with that? Is that the plan? I really don't know. Donald Trump is the only president in history who doesn't know the answer to that question. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin. She's a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, which has been deciding how much money the federal government spends since the committee's creation in 1867. Senator Baldwin, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Apparently, Donald Trump does not know where these spending decisions are made in this government.
- [28:24]
Donald Trump
Yes, Article 1 of the Constitution makes it very clear that Congress does the budgeting, the appropriating and passing laws, and it's the president who administers and implements those laws. And as we are watching all of this unfold in the first few weeks of this presidency, it seems that Donald Trump wants to just do away with the other two branches of government or ignore their actions. But that won't stand. And as we have seen, he has overreached in many ways. His federal funding freeze was absolutely unconstitutional. And fortunately the courts stepped in and are now saying you cannot pause funding. Whether he is complying with that order or not right now remains to be seen. But we have seen action after action by this administration that is an overreach that substitutes his judgment for that of Congress. That is not what a president is able to do. And look, if we let him do that, let's think about where it leads. Does he just replace his own judgment with the acts of Congress? Does he decide that only people in red states should get Social Security and Medicare? Does he close VAs in blue states? This cannot be. And it is high time that not only Democrats in Congress stand up to this, but the Republicans. Join us.
- [30:04]
Lawrence O'Donnell
You know, Nick Kristof mentioned the half a billion dollars of American farmer delivered food aid that's been rotting on docks since the freezing of usaid. We learned about that yesterday from the USAID Inspector General, Paul Martin. And I read that report on this program last night and I was thinking without saying it publicly, that Paul Martin will be fired today after writing that report yesterday. And I, I didn't want to predict that publicly cuz I didn't want to give anyone the idea who didn't already have it. And of course, Paul Martin was fired today after revealing to us exactly how badly damaged Elon Musk, how much damage he's done to USAID and to the efficient functioning of it, which is what the Musk claim is he's trying to do.
- [30:59]
Donald Trump
Yes. And this is not the first we've seen. We have seen the firing of 17 inspector generals across many agencies. Now this inspector general, this is supposed to be the independent watchdog looking at these agencies on behalf of the public. And this isn't the only set of firings we have seen from this administration that seems to be intimidating and bullying anyone who tries to cross them. But again, we have three branches of government. We have a system of checks and balances. And through the courts, the Congress and our constituencies, we must fight back. And I hope that people understand their power. Think about the act to freeze funding. Just a short while ago and we got calls. We were deluged with calls from our constituents saying, you know, a deputy fire chief called my office saying, I have a federal grant to pay for new firefighters on the team. Do I have to discharge them? Do I have to furlough them? We heard from head starts that had to shutter for several days, leaving hundreds of children and hundreds of families without child care. And we heard from community health centers who couldn't get to the portal to get the funding they needed to stay open and serve patients. And the outpouring ended up resulting in the administration pulling back that directive from omb. And let's not forget the first Trump presidency. It was the people standing up who prevented Donald Trump from repealing the Affordable Health Care Act. And we're going to do that again. The courts, the Congress and our constituents all together are going to stand up.
- [33:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Senator Tammy Baldwin, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.
- [33:09]
Donald Trump
Thank you for having me.
- [33:11]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And coming up, our next guest told the Washington Post, so many of these things are so wildly illegal that I think they're playing a quantity game. And assuming the system can't react to all this illegality at once, Georgetown Law professor David super joins us next.
- [33:32]
Jen Psaki
MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.
- [33:44]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.
- [33:48]
Nicholas Kristof
I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.
- [33:55]
Jen Psaki
Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.
- [34:14]
Lawrence O'Donnell
There's probably both messaging and policy issues.
- [34:17]
Rachel Maddow
But as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?
- [34:24]
Jen Psaki
The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. Get the all new CNBC Sport Newsletter. Alex Sherman brings you exclusive interviews and the biggest news impacting the world of sports, business and media, all straight to your inbox. Sign up for free@cnbc.com sportnewsletter.
- [34:50]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Our next guest, Georgetown law Professor David super, writes statements from some representatives of the administration seem to imply that executive orders have the force of law and that officials must follow them, even in preference to statutes. That view has no support in the Constitution. The only way to make a law is for both chambers of Congress to pass a bill and then either have the president sign it or have Congress pass it again with two thirds votes over the president's veto. The Constitution makes no mention of executive orders, and except in a few unusual cases, Congress has not given them special weight. It certainly would be unconstitutional and a betrayal of their oath for a federal worker to give executive orders priority over constitutionally enacted statutes. Joining us now is David super, professor of law and economics at Georgetown University Law Center. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Professor, have you ever seen such a clash between law and executive orders?
- [35:55]
David Super
No, never. This is quite unprecedented. This makes Richard Nixon look like a shrinking violet.
- [36:01]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And as you look at it, with Donald Trump saying in the Oval Office today that he will always abide by court rulings, we're going to have to wait and see how true that turns out to be. Do you see any cases here where Donald Trump actually has the better argument?
- [36:21]
David Super
Not that I've seen, no. Much of what he's doing is not just illegal, but overtly illegal. Some of these situations, they could have done a lot of what they wanted legally and they didn't try.
- [36:33]
Lawrence O'Donnell
What's an example of the worst illegality that you see here?
- [36:38]
David Super
I mean, I suppose the single worst illegality is trying to cancel birthright citizenship, which is in the first sentence of the first section of the 14th Amendment, plain as day. That's pretty outrageous. But they're ignoring one appropriation statute after another that tells them to spend money and simply impounding it.
- [36:58]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And when you say there might be ways for them to actually get to some of the goals they want, but they haven't even tried, what would be an example of that?
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David Super
Well, there is authority in law for buyouts of federal employees, but in order to do that, you have to have each agency involved make a plan so they're losing people they don't need and not losing people they desperately do need. There's no authority for this broad brush solicitation of resignations across the whole government. They could have done a buyout if they wanted to within the law, but they did something completely illegal instead.
- [37:37]
Lawrence O'Donnell
What kind of Donald Trump said today he can't imagine a judge being presented with illegitimate payment records and deciding that that should be allowed to continue. Of course, no judge has been presented with any evidence whatsoever to support the Trump arguments in any of these cases.
- [38:00]
David Super
No, no. They've been sweeping with a broad brush. They're saying everything's fraudulent without providing an ounce of pro. The judges have been very clear if there's something specific that's improper, you can cut it off, but you can't cut off people in need who Congress has said should get money just because you think somewhere, somehow there might be something wrong.
- [38:19]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And that moment in the Oval Office today when Donald Trump was asked, someone quoted Rand Paul saying only the Congress can actually change the budget. Donald Trump said he didn't know. He's the only president who didn't know that. That's a congressional power apparently.
- [38:37]
David Super
Rather striking, as you say, the appropriations clause in the Constitution puts Congress in charge of the people's money, not Elon Musk.
- [38:46]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Professor David Suber, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [38:50]
David Super
My pleasure.
- [38:51]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. Coming up, the Democrats have a history making candidate for governor of New Mexico. Former Biden Cabinet member Deb Haaland announced her candidacy today and she will join us next. Tonight the Democrats have a new candidate for governor of New Mexico. Deb Haaland, who served as President Biden's secretary of the Interior, launched her campaign today. The New York Times says Deb Haaland, quote, would be the first Native American woman to serve as governor of a state. Her campaign described her as a 35th generation New Mexican. Here is some of Deb Haaland's campaign announcement video released today.
- [39:37]
Rachel Maddow
I'm Deb Haaland. In my life, I've learned that nothing comes easy. Moving around a lot as a kid in a military family, raising my child on my own, achieving 35 years of sobriety. But here in New Mexico, struggle making you fierce. I worked at the local bakery, sold my homemade salsa, cleaned at my child's preschool to reduce the bill. And when I became New Mexico's member of Congress and then the leader of the U.S. department of the Interior, I seized the opportunity to make change. I helped more New Mexico businesses open their doors, powered thousands of our homes with good New Mexico sun, brought good paying New Mexico jobs to plug old oil wells and restore our land and partnered with rural communities to secure their water and solve rural challenges. But the problems we face now are bigger than ever and we must be fierce to solve them. That's why I am running for governor of the great state of New Mexico.
- [40:41]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Joining us now is Deb Hellen, Democratic Candidate for governor of New Mexico. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Governor Grisham, Democrat, is term limited. So this is an open seat run for governor. What made you decide to do it and what do you think will be the number one voting issue when this election day comes?
- [41:05]
Rachel Maddow
Lawrence, thanks so much for having me. Once more, I'm really happy to be here. And look, New Mexicans are struggling right now. In some communities, they don't feel safe. I understand what that struggle is. As I mentioned in my video, I raised my kid as a single mom. Sometimes I didn't know whether I could pay rent and buy groceries in the same month. I feel very confident about the leadership experiences that I've gained over the years. And I'm ready to lead New Mexico.
- [41:37]
Lawrence O'Donnell
As you go forward. With your experience as Secretary of Interior and a Trump government trying to do an across the board discretionary spending freeze on everything, what would it mean to New Mexico if that kind of spending freeze that Elon Musk and Donald Trump tried to execute actually held?
- [42:00]
Rachel Maddow
Well, it would mean that a lot of folks wouldn't get their paychecks, Lawrence. Folks wouldn't be able to pay their bills and look, they have to keep a roof over their families heads. Trump is just causing chaos, confusion, and he's actually causing a lot of cruelty to the people of New Mexico with all of these really terrible policies which are really being made by his rich friends Elon Musk, who is not even elected official. It's really, and I'll just say, Lawrence, that I think Democratic governors will be the front line of defense for this chaotic and cruel administration.
- [42:48]
Lawrence O'Donnell
With your experience in the federal government, how do you think that would help as a governor to go in there with the experience of having been Secretary of the Interior as well as a member of Congress?
- [43:02]
Rachel Maddow
Well, look, Lawrence, in the previous guests you've had, they all outlined how the president is essentially breaking the law. And so governors, Democratic governors, Democratic AGs, state legislatureswe all need to be able to hold Donald Trump accountable for all of the terrible things that he's doing here in New Mexico. Donald Trump is causing a lot of heartache for people. He's making people scared. Children don't want to go to school, parents are afraid to go to work. And sometimes if they do go to work, the doors are shut. So he's causing just a terrible amount of chaos. And I feel very strongly that as governor, I can hold the line on his terrible policies.
- [43:51]
Lawrence O'Donnell
When you left Washington, left the administration, a lot of people liked to take a break after the intensity of a job like that, what made you decide to jump right back in to the hardest possible thing, which is running for office statewide? Running for governor?
- [44:09]
Rachel Maddow
Absolutely, yes. Well, I'm no stranger to campaigns, Lawrence. I started out as an organizer. I worked around my state of New Mexico, registering voters, getting folks out to vote for many, many years. That led me to run for Congress in 2018 and win. And I just feel very strongly that running this campaign will give me an opportunity not only to travel around the state and hear New Mexicans on what matters to them, what their struggles are, how they see the future of this state, but also to hold Donald Trump accountable for all of the really terrible things that he's doing to New Mexicans. And as I said, governors will be the first line of defense against the chaos and cruelty of this White House.
- [45:06]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Deb Haaland, thank you very much for joining us on your first night of your campaign for governor of New Mexico. Thank you very much.
- [45:14]
Rachel Maddow
Thank you.
- [45:15]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. We'll be right back. Candidate for governor of New Mexico, Deb Haaland, gets tonight's last word.
- [45:30]
Jen Psaki
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