← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Epstein survivors call for full release of files
00:46:45
Tonight on The Last Word: Epstein survivors demand justice and accountability. Jena-Lisa Jones, Rep. Ro Khanna, and Lisa Rubin join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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And the last word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.
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C
Hey, Jed. It has been quite a week so far with the Epstein files in Washington. Donald Trump has been trying to make them disappear. It's not working. He's tried as much diversionary tactics as you can imagine using the American military not only here in the United States, but also illegally in international waters. Just no legal justification whatsoever for attacking that vessel coming out of Venezuela. But we know what it's about. It's all about trying to get the country to pay attention to anything other than the survivors who told their stories today.
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A
Could not agree more. Everything you said, Echo confirm. I think anyone who saw that, I know you watched it as closely as I did this morning. You have to not have a heart and soul to have been impacted by watching those survivors this morning. And he can't change the subject when they're out there speaking out like that.
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C
Yeah. And we're going to hear more from them tonight. One of the women who was there this morning is going to join us tonight.
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A
Look forward to watching that, Lawrence. Thanks. I'm glad you're having tomar.
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C
Thank you. And today, finally, the survivors spoke.
- [02:23]
A
Good morning. My name is Anoushka degiorgio and I stand before you today as a survivor of both Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. My name is Annie Farmer and I was 16 years old when I was flown to New Mexico to spend a weekend with Epstein and Maxwell.
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My name is Marina Lacerda.
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I was minor victim 1 in federal indictment of Jeffrey Epstein in New York in 2019. I was one of dozen of girls that I personally know were forced into Jeffrey's Mansion on 9 East 71 street in New York City when we were just kids. Today is the first time that I.
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Ever speak publicly about what happened to me.
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My name is Courtney Wild. I was only 14 years old when I was introduced to Jeffrey Epstein by a 13 year old friend of mine. My name is Jennalisa Jones and I was only 14 years old when my friend brought me over to Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm beach in 2003. Good afternoon. My name is Hayley Robson. I was a 16 year old high school student athlete who made good grades and had high aspirations for college when I was recruited and asked by a classmate of mine alongside with a 20 year old male if I wanted to give an old rich guy a massage. I was just a 16 year old little girl who was sexually abused by a powerful man and an evil man.
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In the year 2000, I was taken to Jeffrey Epstein's island while on a photo shoot on a nearby island.
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Who I saw and what I experienced there was a glimpse into a very dark and disturbing world. My name is Shantae Davies and I'm here before you today as a survivor. A survivor of decades of pain, trauma.
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And betrayal at the hands of Ghislaine.
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Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein and the people who enabled them and a government that for far too long refused to help. In 2002, I was living in California.
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A young woman with high aspirations of becoming an actress. I was already beginning to make a name for myself in the industry.
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A person I trusted, someone I thought.
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Was a friend, invited me to meet a powerful woman who could help advance my career.
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That woman happened to be Ghislaine Maxwell.
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Teresa Helm did not make an opening statement with the group, but in response to a reporter's question, she described what it felt like to listen to Ghislaine Maxwell in what was a very friendly discussion with Donald Trump's personal criminal defense lawyer who is now Donald Trump's Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. Last night I tried to describe that for you here, what it was like to listen to all nine hours of that very friendly two day discussion in Florida in the U.S. attorney's office. There's the discussion that somehow earned Ghislaine Maxwell a transfer to the easiest federal prison camp that exists for women in this country. A facility that a former federal prison official has called a country club in Texas, close to Ghislaine Maxwell's family. Before you hear what it was like for someone who was abused by Ghislaine Maxwell to listen to her in her friendly chat with Todd Blanche. I want to let you listen to a typical passage in that friendly chat that was almost entirely irrelevant to the facts of Jeffrey Epstein. At least seven of the nine hours were irrelevant. Irrelevant to the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell. But so much of it was, perversely, as this piece is filled with laughter. Did you have any sort of professional or social relationship with John F. Kennedy Jr.
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I fancied him. You what? I thought he was very attractive. Oh, you fancied him. Sorry. Besides finding him attractive and fancying him, did you have any sort of, you know, social relationship with him? I mean, we knew each other. I thought he was wonderful and fun and I enjoyed meeting him. But we went out. I wanted to say we had a dinner or two, but I was very excited.
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But that was it.
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Here is Theresa Helm's reaction today to listening to Ghislaine Maxwell's friendly chat with Todd Blanche.
- [06:43]
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What I will say is she got this airtime and platform. Her voice was elevated way before our voices were elevated here today. And that same calm, manipulative voice that she had, so polite there that day with Todd Blanche was the same polite, coercive, manipulative voice that I heard as she was grooming me to then send me off to the home of Jeffrey Epstein where he would assault me. So that's what she was doing for hours, speaking with me, building relationship with me, building trust with me, allowing me to believe that I was going to get this job, a dream job that I had been recruited from my college, flown across the country from Los Angeles to New York City to interview. So I thought, so her voice that day was the same voice that sent me off to a monster. So believe. Nothing can be believed from what she says because she's been charged with perjury. I myself could sit there and listen. And as I did, I sat there and listened to this woman's voice lie. And there was no pushback from Todd Blanche. Listening to this woman's voice is repulsive. Yes, I would say it's triggering. We all work very hard on healing and it still gets to us after two decades. That's a very long answer. But it's repulsive to sit there and listen to her voice in her interview.
- [08:31]
C
Repulsive. While Luin were speaking today, something else repulsive. Donald Trump told reporters in the Oval Office that the women were all participating in a hoax. Donald Trump called it, quote, the Epstein hoax. Donald Trump was asked, quote, is the Justice Department protecting any friends or donors, sir. To which Donald Trump said, quote, so this is a Democratic hoax that never ends. He did not answer the question about whether he is personally protecting friends or donors or himself by blocking the release of the Epstein files. But in not answering the question, he used the word hoax four times. And the final words he said about it were, quote, the Epstein hoax.
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We're here in person. To say that it's a hoax is just not. Please humanize us. I would like Donald J. Trump and every person in America and around the world to humanize us, to see us for who we are and to hear us for what we have to say. There is no hoax. The abuse was real.
- [09:48]
C
Jeffrey Epstein said he was Donald Trump's closest friend for 10 years. And today, Donald Trump said that the women who say they were sexually assaulted by Jeffrey Epstein and raped by Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump's close friend. The women who say they were trafficked and abused by Donald Trump's other friend, Ghislaine Maxwell. Donald Trump says those women are a hoax. They are participating in a hoax. The women who were abused and trafficked by Ghislaine Maxwell are horrified. That's their word. Horrified that Donald Trump has rewarded the convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell by moving her to the easiest prison camp in the country.
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We were horrified to learn that she had been transferred to a prison camp. She is someone who was found guilty.
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By a jury of sex trafficking.
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She not only, we often hear that she procured women for Jeffrey, which I think is a very sort of polite and minimizing term. She also participated in the abuse. She was a major architect of the scheme. And the fact that she has painted.
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Herself as a victim, I think is disgusting.
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And it was horrifying, I think, to us that we were not told about her prison transfer. We found out about it in the news. I testified alongside Annie at the trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. I was horrified when I found out not only had Ghislaine Maxwell been transferred to what's called a low security, it really is like a holiday camp. And then afterwards, I got a notification from the Department of Justice telling me that this was going to happen when it had already happened.
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C
Each of the women spoke in favor of Congress passing the Epstein Files Transparency Act. Our first guest tonight was 14 years old when she met Jeffrey Epstein.
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My name is Jennalisa Jones, and I was only 14 years old when my friend brought me over to Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm beach in 2003. I had a terrible Home life. But I was such an innocent kid then. I always did my best in school and I had such a positive outlook on life until that day that I met Jeffrey. I have never been more scared in my life than I was that first time that he hurt me. I remember crying the entire way home, thinking about how I couldn't ever tell anyone about what actually happened in that house. This guy was so rich and had so many pictures with so many famous people, and no one would have ever believed me if I told them. I want to thank Congressman Rowe and Congressman Thomas Massie for having me here today. It was really hard for me to find my voice and to become strong enough to speak about my abuse. I didn't come forward until 2019, and even when and even then, it was like I was afraid of a ghost. I know that I was just a little kid, but sometimes I still feel like it is my fault that this happened. Being given the opportunity to speak at the United States Capitol building about something that is so important, not just to me and the women before you, but to the entire country. Together, we can finally make a change. And that is thanks to the people like these two congressmen and their teams, who actually care about the victims. If you are a member of Congress and you are listening to all of us speak here today, please really listen to us. Please vote for this bill to be passed. Please recognize how important it is for transparency relating to Jeffrey Epstein. Whether you are a Democrat or a Republican, this does not matter. This is not about sides. You are an American, and you are a person who has chosen to serve in an elected position to stand up for those you represent who cannot always stand up for themselves. We are those people. We are the Americans that you promised to protect, and we need your help. Please, President Trump, pass this bill and help us, make us feel like our voices are finally being heard. Thank you.
- [14:28]
C
Joining us now is General Lisa Jones. General Lisa, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you very much for telling us your story today at the Capitol. I know you've had some time since then, and I'm just wondering if there's anything you would like to add to what you said today.
- [14:53]
A
I would say what I want to add from today was to let everyone know how hard that was for all of us today to speak up when we shouldn't have had to. I was a minor. I was 14 years old when these acts happened against me and my survivor sisters, a lot of us. And the fact that we had to stand in front of Congress today and speak Our truth was such a powerful thing, but also in the same sense was something that we should have never had to have done if we would have done, if the government would have done their job in the beginning of this, none of us would have had to come forward and put our face to this. And I don't think it's fair that in order for us to get attention to this case that my 14 year old self has to put myself publicly at 37 years old.
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C
And I so agree with you, General Lisa and I'm sorry that you've had to go through what you've had to go through this week and it is unthinkable what you went through at age 14. You're not the only one who met Jeffrey Epstein at age 14 and as you know, you know so much about this evidence against him. How long were you involved with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?
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I was involved with them long enough for them to do the damage. And I think that that's all that matters. It doesn't matter how many times you went, if you went multiple times, if you were involved for years or not. The damage was done the first time the abuse started.
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C
Jenalisa, what are you finding when you share your stories with other survivors? How has that been for you? Has that been a positive experience?
- [16:55]
A
It's like a double knife sword, right? Like it's empowering and strength in numbers and to feel like that you're not alone, especially when you have for so long kept this a secret because you thought you were the only one or the few of some. But then having that being surrounded, especially this time around, being surrounded with all of the survivors, I think it really spoke volumes for all of us to be there and united front for this and show our support for each other because I don't think anyone else could ever understand what we went through except for ourselves.
- [17:36]
C
As we all know, there are the count goes into possibly the thousands above 1000 Epstein survivors out there. And so we're hearing from a very small group of those survivors. You've been both, you've been a silent survivor for a number of years and now you are a speaking, a publicly speaking survivor. Tell us about those two different conditions, those two different choices. The choice to be silent, what's that like for the women you think who are out there silent tonight, who are watching you, possibly hundreds of them watching you right now who went through what you went through but have remained silent and have been, remained private about it. What do you think their experience is like and what is the experience, like when you make that decision to change and become one of the speaking survivors.
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A
I think being quiet and not saying anything is our own way of how we protect ourselves. A lot of us didn't know that this was such a wide variety. And then once you get the scope of the whole situation that was at play, I, I think we hold a lot of guilt to that and I think that silences us a lot because how do you heal from that? Right? But then when you find your voice to get out there and speak, it's intense. You are putting your life on the line is what I feel like. When you are speaking out and speaking your truth, which I shouldn't have to do because I was 14, but when we were speaking our truth is like, it's so intense and I can't describe it. It's like an out of body feeling. I'm there. I know it's my story and my truth, but you almost feel like you're detached from your body. And I think that's where therapy and all the mental health stuff comes into play. Because it's a lot to come forward. It is a lot. I had a Congress member tell me today, like, we have a hard time speaking out. So for all of you guys to sit out there and speak your truth in front of millions and millions of people that are watching across the country speaks volumes to the strength that you guys have. And I feel so weak at times. So I don't know how people see me as powerful. And I know that, like speaking, speaking my truth is powerful. It's just hard and it's emotionally draining. And when I go home, I'm gonna be feeling this for a very long time.
- [20:35]
C
General Lisa, I can tell you that for me, I'm just in awe of what you were able to do today and what the other women with you were able to do today. And I can completely understand the thousand silent women out there too, what their choice is. I completely get it. I don't see any easy choice to make here in either direction. But to be able to do what you did out there with that microphone, with those people, with all of that attention on live television nationally was really an extraordinary thing to watch for you and the others who you were joined by. And I can tell you that you are believed. You mentioned that in your comments today about what it's like to believe you won't be believed. Can you feel that there are people like us out here now who do fully believe you?
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A
In 2019, when I came out, it was like a circus. And he had already been in trouble for so many years. So the fact that it was a circus, this is the first time ever speaking out, like, publicly that I feel supported. And I feel supported from all sides, from everywhere. I have had so much amazing feedback today of people reaching out to me and telling me your voice mattered. I was not strong enough to speak for myself, and you were setting the pathway for other victims to come forward. For me, that was also healing for me, that was healing for me today because as victims and survivors, we feel crazy sometimes for how we feel about these circumstances. And so to have people supporting us, and I mean, supporting us to the T was absolutely beyond my wildest dreams that we would have this much support this time.
- [22:48]
C
I have to ask you about someone who wasn't supportive today, and that is Donald Trump in the Oval Office calling what was happening in your discussion the Epstein hoax. He repeatedly called it a Democratic hoax, even though you were accompanied by Republican members of the House as you were standing there. How did you feel about that when you heard that word applied to what was happening there?
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A
So I'm going to go off of my survivor sister, Haley Roberson, and I voted for him. I voted for Trump. And for him to say what he is saying is beyond me because I put my hope in him and he's supposed to protect us. And for him to say that this is a joke and that it's sides, this is not sides. We will say it time and time again. None of us are up there accusing him of anything. I. There is no one that is accusing him of any wrongdoing. So for the fact that he is saying those things and saying it's a hoax, who are you hiding for then? Because if it's not you, then who is it? And that scares me. Who is it?
- [24:13]
C
One of the questions that was repeatedly asked by some of the women today was who was protecting Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell for all those years so that they could get away with that? And that seems to be something that many of you have been wondering about. Tell us about that. Tell us about your feelings about that.
- [24:39]
A
The government has been protecting Jeffrey Epstein from the beginning. We can go back as far as he had people calling him out in the 90s. We can call it out. When his case brought up in Palm beach and he got prosecuted, they brought it up to a federal level. Alex Acosta decided that, that he would bring it back down to a state level and only charge him for two women. I can sit here and wholeheartedly tell you they never fully investigated that case at that time. They never truly went into how deep the spiral of twists and turns of who was connected and how they were connected. And these, we were minors, we were children. I had girls today reach out to me from Royal Palm Beach Heights School, Palm Beach Central, Wellington High School, telling me I could never have spoken up. And you're speaking up for all of us. And it happened, we saw it. And even if they weren't involved, they knew it was going on or had been asked by friend members to participate in that and chose not to. And thank God they didn't.
- [25:57]
C
Donald Trump has been known to watch this program. He watches a lot of cable news. He could be watching right now. What would you say to him about the Epstein files? He's in complete control of releasing the Epstein files. They could be released in their entirety tomorrow. If Donald Trump simply told the Justice Department to do it. What would you say to him about it right now?
- [26:22]
A
You have daughters. You know what it is like to raise children and to be a parent outside of all this hoopla that you're the president or you're Donald J. Trump and you have your Trump stuff. You know what it is to be a parent. You know that. Could you imagine if that was your daughter that was trafficked? Two people. Could you imagine your 14 year old daughter having to go through what we had to go through and then you sit here and say what you said. You should be supporting us, you should be backing us. And if you have any doubt of your mind, our lawyers are ready to speak. We have spoken to FBI, we have spoken to every law enforcement agency that we could possibly have been asked to speak to. We have been traced down to corroborate our stories. This is not a joke. We spoke our truth and you were telling us pretty much that we're lying. I put my hope in you when I voted for you, for our country. And you can't even back us when we need you the most and we, we need to heal. We're not healing.
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C
Generalisa, as you go forward in this situation, what are your, what are your hopes beyond tonight and beyond this week, beyond this issue of the Epstein files?
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A
I hope we truly get transparency through all this. I hope people listen to us. I hope they decide to release what they need to release and so we can put this to rest. It is not fair to the rest of us, to the survivors, to sit here and have to endure this media frenzy and this craziness. It's re traumatizing, it's re victimizing us. Every time. And it's not fair to us. We are going on decades of dealing with this, and the government has failed us in every aspect of it. So how. How do we come from that? We need to heal. We're trying to heal, but we're not healed. And we can't heal until you guys give us what we need. And we need answers. We. We need something. This can't keep going on. It's truly not fair to all of us.
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C
Generalisa, I don't want you to feel constrained just by my questions here in responding to those. So before we go, I just want to give you an opportunity to add anything else that you feel you might want to say tonight.
- [29:11]
A
I just want to thank everyone that is supporting us and listening to us and backing us up. Even if that means that you're turning on Trump in the Republican sense to be able to sign this bill, because that sounded what it was to me, like, don't sign it. I hope you guys hear us and see us as your children, as your loved ones, your brothers, your sisters, and you fight for us because this isn't fair. We have lost so many survivors already from mental health and having to deal with this and never getting the peace and the justice that we deserved. And we lost it when he died. We lost it when they failed us in the government. Like, come on. Like, when is it our time to just, like, be. Just be humans? Like, we're kind of like aliens?
- [30:18]
C
Genalisa, I can imagine how strange these feelings are and how you might feel like some sort of laboratory study that we're all doing, zooming in on you, but you've really brought your humanity here tonight to us, and I think we can see you and see who you are, and we really appreciate your joining this discussion tonight.
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A
I really appreciate you having me and to listen to my voice so I could speak for all my Survivor sisters.
- [30:48]
C
Generalisa, I'm very sorry that these are the circumstances that you're joining us tonight. I'm sorry for what you've gone through, but we greatly appreciate your voice tonight, and it has been very important. Thank you very much.
- [30:59]
A
Thank you, Mr. O'. Donnell.
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C
Thank you. Coming up, what we saw at the Capitol today was actually the work of Congressman Ro Khanna. He's the one who put all of it together, and he will join us next.
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What we saw at the Capitol today began to take shape on this program on the night of July 23, when Congressman Ro Khanna appeared as a guest here after listening to attorney Brad Edwards in his first appearance as a guest on this program, explaining why the Epstein survivors, who he represents, want the Epstein files released. Brad Edwards, also in that appearance on this program, gave Congress a lead on where they could find the Epstein birthday book that the Wall Street Journal reported contains a birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein bearing Donald Trump's name and wishing Jeffrey Epstein happy birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret. Brad Edwards said that Congress could subpoena the birthday book from the Epstein estate, which Congress has now done, and they are going to get the birthday book. Today, Brad Edwards described more of what is in the Epstein files.
- [33:32]
A
We filed lawsuits against Jeffrey Epstein, against his estate, and against two financial institutions, JP Morgan and Deutsche bank, that proved that they provided, knowingly provided the financial infrastructure for a sex trafficking operation. Unfortunately, all of the documents and evidence that we have worked so hard to gather hide behind protective orders, confidentiality agreements and bank secrecy laws. That is why this discharge petition is so important. While we have seen the documents, you haven't. And when you see the documents, you're going to be appalled. And the American people deserve to see everything. When you sign this discharge petition, it should mean nothing is off limits. That means the documents in the possession of the CIA should be made available. Those in the possession of the FBI going back decades should be made available. The SEC financial records in the possession of FinCEN should be made available. Everybody knows that evil. Evil flourishes in the darkness. Corruption flourishes in secrecy.
- [34:38]
C
Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman Khanna, thank you very much for joining us. Joining us tonight on this very important night. And that, as I know, was your work putting that event together today, giving us all of this information, so much information that we did not know about the survivors and about, as we just heard, what is actually in the Epstein files. What did you learn today and what did you learn in putting all of this together?
- [35:12]
D
First of all, Lawrence, let me thank you. Because if it were not for your reporting, if you had not had Brad on the program, the victims lawyers, we would never have been able to put this conference together. And so it was you, your team, your journalism that helped make it possible for the survivors to tell their stories. I got to tell you, it's the first time in nine years in Congress at one of those press conferences that I didn't feel like a politician. I just felt like a human being. And hearing the victims talk about being raped at the age of 14 and then told to get more people from high school and junior high knowing that they would be raped, I mean, it just disgust me and it disgust everyone there. I mean, Marjorie Taylor was. Greene was so moved that she gave me a hug afterwards. I mean, this was a human moment. One of the things I learned is that some of the victims have not seen their files. They want those files just to reconstruct their own memories, and they're being denied that. Another thing that really drove home for me their need for these files for closure. I mean, they were just appealing to. They frankly, were trying to appeal to anyone's humanity. This was not political for them. They said they've been through so much and they just want these files foreclosure. So I hope we can just, as a country, on one thing, come together and do right by these survivors who faced extraordinary hardship.
- [36:41]
C
What is the difference between the subpoena that the House, your committee, has issued for these files and what this bill would do that you're trying to pass?
- [36:54]
D
The bill has teeth. I mean, the subpoena is at the discretion of the Justice Department. Yes, the Justice Department. Department should comply, but who's going to prosecute the Justice Department? That's up to the Justice Department. And they've been stonewalling. They've only released less than 1% of the files. 97% of that 1% is already in the public domain. So this is a drip, drip, drip. Let's hope this thing goes away. But for anyone watching who may be confused or think this is congressional jargon, I would say listen to the survivors. They were asked at the press conference, is the oversight release enough, or do you want this discharge petition? And they all raise their hand on the discharge petition. They know that will actually release the files, which would have the names of people who abused them, who covered up Epstein's crimes, who paid off Epstein. And my view is that the survivor's wishes should be what is dispositive.
- [37:54]
C
While you were speaking, while you were at this discussion, that is when Donald Trump called it all a hoax, called what you are doing a hoax, called what the women were saying a hoax. Everything there was a hoax. Did you get that information while you were there that Donald Trump was calling it a hoax?
- [38:15]
D
We did because of some of the people who were asking questions. Some of the journalists there were saying, well, Donald Trump is calling this a hoax. And it was just so disappointing because the survivors actually, in, if you listen, as I know you did, but if others listen to their statements, they were basically pleading with Donald Trump. They were not saying, they were not attacking him. They were not criticizing him. One person said, I'm a Republican. They said, Mr. President, previous presidents haven't released this. Will you please just find some humanity and release these? We're asking you as the president of the nation to do right. And for him to not even listen to them, for him to just say, it's a hoax, it's a hoax, it's a hoax. I mean, it was so disrespectful, so disrespectful that Thomas Massie called him out on that, on it. So disrespectful that Marjorie Taylor Greene said to the president he should at least meet these survivors. Because to call it a hoax is to dehumanize their testimony when they're there crying and reliving a trauma that they faced when they were 13 or 14. And there is no person, no person who would hear them, see how emotional they were, and wouldn't believe every word of what they were talking about. In terms of their experience.
- [39:29]
C
When you joined us on this program in July, and you made it very clear that you were committed to this. And even though Donald Trump was trying to delay any possible action and push it down the road, that when Congress comes back after Labor Day, you would be there still pursuing this. I just want to highlight this point for the audience because in watching this kind of program. You can hear members of Congress and other politicians say things all the time about what they're going to do in the future, what they're going to do next month or next year or somewhere down the road. But what we're seeing tonight is someone actually doing what he said he was going to do and making it really happen. What is next, Congressman Khanna in this story?
- [40:18]
D
Well, Lawrence, I, like you, have been moved by the survivors and their simple quest for justice. We have 214 signatures. We need to get to 218. That's actually a lot of signatures within 24 hours. I mean, there's these discharge petitions never succeed. I'm very confident it will succeed. We are going to get two more Democrats. One of them had a personal issue with their family that they'll be in next week. So that gets us to 216. Now we need two more votes. Massey and I are very confident we will get to 218. I don't want to outline the exact path because when we have outlined that path, you have Donald Trump and other people calling to get people off. But both of us are very confident we will get to 218 and then that within seven days will force a vote. But we're up against a lot. We're up against big moneyed interests, we're up against the White House lobbying people saying their career will be over. We are, you know, the voicemails and emails we're, we're getting and Massey is up against a lot more pressure than me. But anyone who's standing up against this, there are powerful people and moneyed interests that don't want this these release. But I am confident that we're going to get there to 218. It's going to surprise people.
- [41:41]
C
Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you very much for joining us on this important night.
- [41:44]
D
Thank you, Lawrence. And thank you for your journalism on this issue. It's made a incredible difference. A historic day because of your and your team's work.
- [41:52]
C
Thank you. Coming up, we will get the legal perspective on what we heard from the Epstein and Maxwell survivors today. That's next.
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Shantae Davies has a question for Donald Trump.
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A
There are files, government files, that hold the truth about Epstein. Who he knew, who owed him, who.
- [43:41]
B
Protected him and why he was allowed to operate for so long without consequence. Why was Maxwell the only one held.
- [43:48]
A
Accountable when so many others played a role? Why does the government hide this information from the public?
- [43:56]
B
This secrecy is not protection, it's complicity.
- [43:59]
A
And as long as the truth is.
- [44:01]
B
Buried, justice will remain out of reach.
- [44:03]
A
So I ask you, President Trump and members of Congress, why do we continue to cover up sexual abuse and assault? Who are we covering for? Let the public know the truth. We cannot heal without justice. We cannot protect the future if we.
- [44:20]
B
Refuse to confront the past.
- [44:24]
C
Joining us now is MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, I know you've been covering this all day, but what we just heard from Shantae Davies was said in various forms by some of the other women about to Donald Trump, to members of Congress. What are you covering up? Why are you doing this? But they all what we also saw there was a description of what's possible in the Epstein files. What we could actually discover.
- [44:52]
B
I think there is. Well, first of all, let's talk about what we call the Epstein files, because the Epstein files as possessed by the Department of Justice aren't the entirety of what's out there. Brad Edwards earlier today was referring to records, for example, that the Treasury Department has. And those aren't part and parcel necessarily of what we understand the Epstein files to be. But I think we are going to see a tremendous amount come out, but not from The Department of Justice, again, remember next week is the first deadline for the Epstein estate to comply with the subpoena that the House Oversight Committee served on it. And we know from the ranking member, Robert Garcia, that they are prepared to meet that obligation, including by producing the infamous birthday book in which that alleged letter from Donald Trump appears. I think that folks should expect to see a lot from the estate, and certainly at a much more rapid clip than we're seeing it already from the Department of Justice. It may be that the Department of Justice has the birthday book in its possession. Indeed, Ghislaine Maxwell told Todd Blanche during that same interview you quoted from earlier that portions of it showed up in the criminal discovery and her case. But we're not going to see it from doj. We're going to see it from the estate, which has said to multiple reporters, including me, that they will comply with all lawful process that's meaningful here.
- [46:10]
C
Lawrence One thing that was clear today is that there's a continuing abuse of process in the Justice Department in regards these survivors. They're supposed to be notified when anything is happening to someone who they testified against, like Ghislaine Maxwell. They were supposed to be notified if there was any kinds of prison transfer. They were not beforehand. And we also see in what they were telling us today about what they were not told during the previous Epstein investigations by the Justice Department. Some of them thought they were going to be called as witnesses in a case that never happened.
- [46:49]
A
Right.
- [46:49]
B
That never materialized. And but for the fact that Courtney Wild walked into Brad Edwards office in 2008, we would not know. Most of what we now know today was that ultimately unsuccessful fight under the Federal Crime Victims Reform act that led to sort of the excavation and relitigation of what we understand now Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell's crimes to be. And yet we still don't know the whole truth because one of the things we heard so clearly today was that even if there is not additional criminal activity by sexual predators and perpetrators, there were a host of people who either look the other way or facilitated the abuse financially, logistically or otherwise. And by the way, Donald Trump may be one of those people, because we know that he broke with Jeffrey Epstein and sometime in the mid aughts. And yet when asked why he did that, he said Jeffrey Epstein was stealing employees from Mar A Lago in a way that suggested that the person he was talking about is Virginia Giuffre, who was a locker room attendant at Mar A Lago during a summer off from high school.
- [48:01]
C
I love Talking to Lisa the lawyer. I now wanna talk to Lisa the human being who was processing all of today. What do you take away from it all?
- [48:12]
B
Oh, Lawrence, it was absolutely wrenching. And like you, I was congressional aide earlier in my career, before I became a lawyer. I have attended dozens of press conferences and I have to agree with Congressman Khanna. I've never seen a press conference on a Capitol lawn like the one we witnessed today. I think we have come so far as a nation culturally, as evidenced by Haley Robson's statement. You know, she said, I was treated like I was a perpetrator. I was threatened with prosecution. I was 16 years old. As recently as six years ago, the New York Times wrote a piece about the difficulties of the Epstein case, saying that the perpetrators and the victims were oftentimes one and the same. Today, hearing Haley Robson speak on her own accord, it's difficult to even conceive of her as a perpetrator and someone who willingly conspired with Jeffrey Epstein. And yet at the same time she mentioned how inescapable it was for her that when she goes to pick her own kids up from school today, this is all anyone could talk about. And so I was really struck by how much time has passed without accountability and justice for these women. Haley Robson, beginning by describing herself as a 16 year old high school athlete on a great trajectory to college, and yet today, who is she? She's a woman who is stuck in that past when she goes to pick up her own children from school. That distance from being the underage victims to now being the parents of people they want to protect. And yet there's still so much we don't know and a Department of justice and an FBI that have not interrogated their own processes to make sure this doesn't happen again. You know, the FBI is facing a lawsuit from Maria Farmer, whose sister was one of the victims who testified today, saying, hey look, I went to you in 1996, I went to law enforcement. And you still haven't sort of done the 360 review to ensure that people like me aren't similarly affected by the Jeffrey Epstein's of the future. And that really stuck with me today.
- [50:12]
C
Lisa Rubin, thank you very much for your coverage all day and tonight. Really appreciate it.
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