← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Epstein victims’ lawyer: Congress can subpoena Epstein birthday book from Epstein estate
00:46:58
Tonight on The Last Word: Bradley Edwards, an attorney for over 200 of the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein’s abuse, joins Lawrence O’Donnell for an exclusive interview and reveals that he believes the Jeffrey Epstein birthday book with a letter bearing Donald Trump’s name as reported first by The Wall Street Journal is in possession of the Epstein estate. Rep. Ro Khanna and Andrew Weissmann also join to react to the breaking news.
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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
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Commercial Announcer
The Last.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now.
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Commercial Announcer
Hey, Lawrence.
- [01:06]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Hey, Jen. Andrew Weissman is back. He will be.
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Jen Psaki
Oh, we love it.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Yes, we, we need him. And he will be joining us tonight in our coverage of the Epstein files and the Justice Department's involvement in that. He, of course, is an expert on all of that. And we actually have some breaking news to deliver during this hour on this, John. So we have to get right to it. Get right to it.
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Jen Psaki
I'll be in my car listening.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Okay. Thanks, Jen.
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Commercial Announcer
Thanks, Larry.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. We're going to be breaking news during this hour about the Epstein files. We will be joined by a guest who believes that he knows where the birthday book is that contains a letter to Jeffrey Epstein on his 50th birthday that bears Donald Trump's name. That is the same letter that the Wall Street Journal published a story about for which Donald Trump is now suing the Wall Street Journal and its owner, Rupert Murdoch. The Trump lawsuit calls it a non existent letter. So with Donald Trump claiming that the letter does not exist, the birthday book that contains that letter would be very damaging to Donald Trump if that book became available. And we'll be joined by a guest tonight who believes he knows where that birthday book is now and how it can be obtained. The Trump lawsuit against Rupert Murdoch and the Wall Street Journal looks as absurd as most Donald Trump lawsuits look because among other things, Donald Trump is suing the Wall Street Journal for saying what you just heard Jen say, for saying that Donald Trump was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. That is something that everyone covering this story has always said for years about Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. But only the Wall Street Journal got sued by Donald Trump for saying that. That he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Line 23 of the Trump lawsuit says the defendants pass off the false, defamatory, disparaging, inflammatory statements in the article as fact, falsely claiming without substantiation that Trump is a friend, pal, or family of Epstein. So Donald Trump's lawsuit calls it defamation for the Wall Street Journal to say that Donald Trump was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. And since Donald Trump filed that absurd lawsuit, every news organization covering this story, including the New York Times, all of them have repeatedly referred to Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein as friends. And none of those news organizations have been sued by Donald Trump for saying that they were friends. And that is just one point of absurdity in the Trump lawsuit. Donald Trump will surely drop that lawsuit before he is forced by Rupert Murdoch and the Wall Street Journal to test in a videotaped under oath deposition in the case about his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump will never submit to a word of under oath testimony about Jeffrey Epstein. We know that about Donald Trump. We don't have to guess at that. That is a behavioral fact of Donald Trump's life. He does everything he possibly can to avoid testifying under oath. And when you start a lawsuit like Donald Trump did against the Wall Street Journal, you are, in effect, promising to testify under oath in that lawsuit. And the only way for Donald Trump to escape testifying under oath and being grilled for hours on end by Rupert Murdoch's lawyers about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein is for Donald Trump to drop that lawsuit. Donald Trump now has an incentive to drop that lawsuit very soon, possibly next week or next month, because the Florida federal judge handling that lawsuit, appointed by President Barack Obama, Judge Darren Gales, has given Rupert Murdoch in the Wall street journal until September 22nd to file their written answer to the Trump lawsuit. The Wall Street Journal legal response to the Trump lawsuit in writing could be absolutely devastating to Donald Trump. The Wall Street Journal could, could, if it so chooses, reveal all of its evidence against Donald Trump in that lawsuit. And the only way for Donald Trump to stop the Wall Street Journal from submitting a condemning filing against Donald Trump in that lawsuit between now and September 22nd is for Donald Trump to drop that lawsuit. The Wall Street Journal doesn't have to wait until September 22nd to file their written response. They could file it tomorrow. And so Donald Trump's lawsuit, which looked like a one day stunt at the time last week when he filed it, could provoke a legal knockout punch in writing from the Wall Street Journal against Donald Trump any day now. And so you can expect Donald Trump to spend the rest of his life trying not to testify under oath about Jeffrey Epstein. But here's what Jeffrey Epstein said under oath about Donald Trump when he was asked in a deposition in a lawsuit in 2010 about his friendship with Donald Trump. This is as reported by the New York Times in 2019, Mr. Epstein declined to answer a question about his relationship with Mr. Trump and whether they had ever socialized together in the presence of females under the age of 18. Though I'd like to answer that question, at least today, I'm going to have to assert my 5th, 6th, 23rd and 14th amendment rights, sir, Mr. Epstein replied. And so on the question of whether Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein ever socialized in the presence of females under the age of 18, Jeffrey Epstein took the Fifth Amendment. Would Donald Trump take the Fifth Amendment to that question? There are other people, sadly, many other people who have testified under oath about Jeffrey Epstein. And I hope that most of those people are not watching this program tonight. I hope they have found a way to separate from the news media or at least the coverage of Jeffrey Epstein, because that is the most painful subject in their lives. We will be joined tonight by a lawyer who represents hundreds, yes, hundreds of Jeffrey Epstein's victims. He will tell us how his clients are victimized again whenever this subject floods the news media. He believes that the best thing for his clients is to have the Epstein files released in full with the victims names and information redacted so that this story does not drag on and continue to expose those victims to the possible reopening of wounds. What I've tried to do in every hour of our coverage of this subject is to remember the people whose lives were ruined the day they met Jeffrey Epstein's now convicted co conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell, who led many of them into a room with Jeffrey Epstein, where they found him naked. Jeffrey Epstein, 40 years older than so many of his victims who were in middle school and High School. 14 years old seems to have been the target age for Jeffrey Epstein. 14 years old seems to have been the assignment that Jeffrey Epstein gave to Ghislaine Maxwell. Go out and find me 14 year olds whose lives I can destroy. And what predators like Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell know is that the kids they might have a better chance of taking advantage of and exploiting are kids who are already having trouble, kids who've been damaged already in their young lives. And that's what the evidence showed in the Catholic priests, predatory behavior toward young children. Those priests targeted children who they knew had already been suffering in their lives, kids with problems at home, like alcoholic parents or sudden financial hardship or death of a parent. The girls who were victimized by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are the people who make this story so important. And yes, it involves a president of the United States. Yes, for the first time in history, a president of the United States is being questioned about his work, long relationship and friendship with a man who spent much of his adult life raping children. The lawyer for the victims who will join us this hour will tell you that Jeffrey Epstein raped children on a daily basis. Most of the coverage of this story quickly slips into a purely political discussion because that's what the Washington media is always comfortable with. Most of the coverage of this story never refers to or even acknowledges the suffering of those girls in middle school and high school and the multiple ways in which their lives were ruined by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the only person in the case to whom Donald Trump has said, I wish her well, Donald Trump has repeatedly, publicly said I wish her well about Ghislaine Maxwell after she was charged with sex trafficking. After Ghislaine Maxwell in her federal criminal trial did not speak one word of defense, she didn't offer a single word of defense of herself in that trial and for her and only for her. Donald Trump has said, I wish her well. He has never said I wish her well to a single victim of his friend Jeffrey Epstein, a man who Donald Trump called a terrific guy. When Jeffrey Epstein was raping children on a daily basis, what happened to those girls should never be forgotten. When Donald Trump is lying about this case, how, if at all, to your knowledge, did Sean learn how old you actually were? I was going. I had a birthday and I was going to be 14.
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Andrew Weissman
Quite.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Question did he come to your 14th birthday party? Answer yeah. Question and is that how he learned your actual age? Answer yeah, that is federal prosecutor Maureen Comey, who was fired last week by the Trump Justice Department questioning one of the witnesses for the prosecution in the federal trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. A friend brought this witness to Jeffrey Epstein's house. Question what did she tell you? That we were going to go to her friend's house who lived on Palm beach island. And I was going to meet one of her wealthy friends. Question and do what? Answer. Give him a massage. Question how did you respond? Okay. I said okay. Why did you say okay? Because I was going to make a lot of money. What room did you walk into? The kitchen. Question when you walked into the kitchen, what happened? We were greeted by Ms. Maxwell. Question Did Mr. Epstein touch you during this first massage? No. Question after that ended what happened next? I was paid. Question in total, approximately how many times did you go over to Mr. Epstein's house to give him massages? Answer over 100. Question about how often did you go over to his house to provide those massages? Two to three times a week. About how old were you the first time you went over to his house? 14. And about how old were you the last time you went to his house? 18. When you interacted with Maxwell, what, if any, conversations did you have with her about your family? About my upbringing and things that were going on at the time. What did you tell Maxwell? That my mom was an alcoholic and I had been molested. And just random personal things. What conversations do you remember having with her about sexual abuse that you'd experienced? Answer I remember telling her that I had been raped and molested by my grandfather starting at the age of four. Question after you told Maxwell you were 14, did she continue to call you to schedule massage appointments with Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he masturbate? Answer Every single time. Question during how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein, did he touch your breasts? Answer Every time. Question during how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he touch your buttocks? Answer Every time. Question Were there ever massages you provided Jeffrey Epstein where nothing sexual happened? Answer Nothing.
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Jen Psaki
No.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
Something sexual happened every single time. Why did you stop going to Jeffrey Epstein's house? Because I became too old. How old were you? 18. Today the speaker of the House was asked about his decision to close down the House of Representatives for the rest of the summer and send the House home until September because of fear of Epstein and fear of what is in the Epstein files and fear of testimony like that. That was the reporter's phrase who asked the question. Fear, Fear of Epstein. To which the deeply in over his head speaker of the House said, there's no fear. There's no fear. There's no fear. That's what he actually said. He said it three times. And when you're actually not afraid, you're very unlikely to say nervously and repeatedly, there's no fear. There's no fear. There's no fear. And then the obviously terrified speaker of the House gave his reason for not wanting to have a vote in the House of Representatives on releasing the Epstein files. And his reason was a pure lie. The speaker said the administration is already doing everything within their power to release them. They've gone to the grand jury, they've requested the courts to unseal the documents so that they can be released. And that is a lie. Donald Trump and his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, have total power to release the entirety of the Epstein files, not including the grand jury testimony, which no one's been asking for until Donald Trump suddenly pretended he wanted that released. But Donald Trump personally has complete control over the Epstein files, and he has done nothing to release them. And every member of the House of Representatives, every one of them, Democrat and Republican, who are pushing for that release, including all those Republicans who are pushing for it. No, that it's Donald Trump who's refusing to release those files every single day. To which retiring Republican Senator Thom Tillis said this today. Release the damn files. Look, it makes no sense to me if anybody thinks that this is going to go away because the House left a day early or something, it's got to be like those zombies in the Walking Dead. Every time you think you've killed it, another one's just going to come running out of the closet after you. This is going to be an issue all the way through next year's election. And here is Democratic Congresswoman Summer Lee, who convinced three Republicans to join the Democrats on the House Oversight Subcommittee today in voting successfully for a subpoena of the Epstein files from the Trump Justice Department.
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Commercial Announcer
They're fleeing our work, our job, and sending us back home because they don't want to vote to release these files. This is something that they ran on. This is something that they talked about, the importance of transparency, the important pedophiles accountable. And right now, if the Republican Party, if our colleagues on this committee don't join us in this vote, then what they're essentially doing is joining President Donald Trump and complicity. They're doing his dirty work from him, for him. And we want to make sure that not only are we holding them accountable, but also that we're keeping the focus on the things that are important.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
The House Oversight Committee voted to subpoena Elaine Maxwell to give testimony and a deposition in prison. But the first person trying to speak to Ghislaine Maxwell is Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanche, who is now Donald Trump's deputy attorney general. And in an unprecedented, to put it mildly, an unprecedented move in Justice Department history, something that's never happened before, a deputy attorney general is going to interview a convicted sex trafficker in a federal prison. The New York Post is reporting tonight that Ghislaine Maxwell's brother is saying. Ghislaine Maxwell is assembling new evidence to present to the feds when she meets with them this week, her brother told the Post. And here is what her brother said about Donald Trump's repeated public sympathy for his sister, the convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell.
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Ghislaine Maxwell's Brother
President Trump was asked, the only time I believe in public at the tail end of his presidency, say, you know, November, December 2021, about Guylaine. And he said, you know, I don't know much about it, but I wish her well. And I don't think that anyone else showed the slightest piece of humanity, not anybody at that time. And yet he did. He didn't need to. He's the President of the United States, most powerful man in the world. He could have just sloughed it off. He didn't. He made a positive statement. I'm very grateful to that, and I know Gillen was, too.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
In the least surprising news of the day, the Wall Street Journal was reporting Donald Trump is named in the Epstein files multiple times. That was already obvious to any leader lawyer who has been involved in any aspect of the Epstein case, because Donald Trump's name appears on the flight logs of Jeffrey Epstein's plane, and because FBI agents routinely read news reports about the people they're investigating. And so Donald Trump's praise of Jeffrey Epstein on the record in New York Magazine and elsewhere, is surely in the Epstein files. And Donald Trump's response about the Wall Street Journal's new reporting about him being in the Epstein files multiple times was abject fear and silence by Donald Trump. But he sent his White House staff out to release a statement saying this is another fake news story, just like the previous story by the Wall Street Journal. And that childish statement by Donald Trump's White House staff, who Donald Trump has chosen to hide behind tonight sounds like the White House echo version of there's no fear. There's no fear. There's no fear. Leading off our discussion tonight is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's also an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, I want to go straight to what I think you might agree with me is the strangest and most suspicious aspect of what's going on right now. And that is the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's last criminal defense lawyer, who is publicly a publicly declared friend of Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer, first of all, communicating with him, with Maxwell's lawyer now saying he wants to go to prison and sit there and talk to Maxwell and get what Maxwell's brother is telling the New York Post tonight, new evidence, suddenly new evidence from the defendant who did not speak a word of testimony in her own defense in her trial.
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Andrew Weissman
So the red flag here that people should pay attention to is not so much the friendship. I mean, lots of people who are prosecutors, no defense lawyers, and vice versa, it is that the deputy attorney general, a political appointee, is doing this. It is unusual, not unheard of, it is unusual to seek the cooperation of somebody who has blown trial, who has gone to trial and lost. You usually seek cooperation beforehand, and you certainly don't seek it in this situation. Sort of very, very long after that conviction and to your poignant reading of what happened at that trial, we may very well see the Trump administration offering sort of untoward leniency towards Ghislaine Maxwell, who has committed, according to a jury, sort of horrendous, horrendous crimes. And the concern is, is that you have someone who's a political appointee. I've never, ever, ever heard of the deputy attorney general doing this and not having the career people. But you can't have Marine Comey anymore doing this because they fired her. But you don't have even other career people who worked on this case doing this. And you have a political appointee doing this. And the fear is that they're really not, of course, seeking the truth and they're going to offer her a more lenient sentence. Remember here, the judge has sentenced her to 20 years in jail. You do not get sentenced to 20 years in jail for doing nothing. And that is a reflection of the crimes here. So, you know, it's really important that you are focusing on this because of what we may very well be seeing shortly. And the thing that I am keeping sort of my eyes and ears open for is whether prosecutors, career prosecutors in the Southern District of New York are, are going to be fired or quit over this in the same way we saw that happened in the Eric Adams, the Mayor Eric Adams case.
- [24:56]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew, we're going to squeeze in a commercial break. We're going to bring you back into the discussion later. We're going to get to some breaking news in the next segment. So Andrew's going to stand by. And coming up, attorney Bradley Edwards, who represents over 200 victims of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse, who are survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse, will join our discussion next.
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Andrew Weissman
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Jen Psaki
Something that you can strive for. I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself. Stuff that you could achieve.
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- [26:55]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Bradley Edwards is a Florida attorney who has represented over 200 victims of Jeffrey Epstein. He is the author of the book published in 2020, Relentless My Fight for the Victims of Jeffrey Epstein. And joining us now is Bradley Edwards. Mr. Edwards, first of all, I'd like your guidance on our coverage of this story with your clients in mind, with their ongoing suffering in mind and the sensitivity of their feelings and how obviously this involves the President of the United States. This coverage is gonna continue. It's gonna continue. Well, we now know at least. Is there a way for us to handle this that is mindful of what your clients have already suffered?
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Jen Psaki
There is a way. It's not the way that it has been handled thus far. And I think that's the problem. And that's why I agreed to come on the show. Because I think that back in 2008 when I sued the government over Jeffrey Epstein's illegal non prosecution agreement that Alex Acosta gave him, it was because the victims were an afterthought. And now it seems like the victims are not a thought at all. Somehow we've gone backwards, which is not okay. It's irresponsible of everyone. And I think that people really need to remember that real people were hurt here. And every single time that the over politicizing of this issue comes up, they're hurt all over again. I've been contacted by dozens of clients in the last week, probably over 50 that are paranoid, have extreme anxiety and fear over the way in which this issue has been handled, the politic, the politicizing of it. And you know, give it a prime example. The, the call for the release of grand jury materials. First of all, everybody knows the grand jury materials is, is basically worthless. It's nothing. That's where you present to the grand jury before an arrest, before an indictment, before the raids and before the accumulation of evidence. It's a red herring, but it causes the victims to go, wait, where's our voice? We didn't know about this. Luckily the judicial system works and the judges immediately said, wait, we're denying your request. Why? You haven't asked for the victim's opinions. So at least the judges see the victims are being left out. I can tell you, despite that order from the judges, we still haven't been contacted. Our clients still haven't been asked about their opinions of the release of materials. Put the grand jury materials aside, the victims generally. And as you said, I've represented over 200 of them. Not every one of them is the same, but for the most part, all of them want to heal and they deserve to heal. And the only way they're going to heal now is if full transparency happens. Release the files, release everything in it except the victim's names. Protect the victims, protect their privacy. Release everything else. There's no other reason to hold anything back than if somebody is trying, then somebody is trying to hold something or there's a cover up. There's been enough of that. Release it and release it fast. There's a, there's a solution to every single problem that has come up in a quick solution. It doesn't seem like people want it. It seems like it's being driven by salivating over scandal as opposed to dissemination of the truth. One of the things being the birthday book. I have numerous clients who know of the authenticity and the existence of the birthday book. Of course, it was a birthday book that was given to Jeffrey Epstein on his 50th birthday by Ghislaine Maxwell. Jeffrey Epstein's dead. He has an estate. Everybody who's knows anything about the story knows that, that knows the estate exists and it's being governed by the two executors. Darren Indyke, Jeffrey Epstein's former attorney. Richard Kahn, Jeffrey Epstein's former accountant. Those are the two executors. If somebody simply called them on the phone and said, give us the book, they would probably give you the book. They have attorneys. Their attorneys are good. Their attorneys are good people. If they didn't just voluntarily turn over the book out of fear of reprisal, Congress could issue a subpoena to their attorneys at Patterson or at Troutman. Those are the two law firms. I know those attorneys. They would turn the book over immediately. Nobody would have to guess there would need to be a lawsuit. There wouldn't have to wait to be to be discovery. You would immediately have the answers. You could flip to the page, is there a letter? Is there not a letter? It's over. The victims then get to move on. But that's not what's happening. And that's why I agreed to come on. Because so many of them have called and said somebody needs to remind them real people are being hurt here. The truth matters. Transparency actually matters. Get this over with and get it behind us.
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Lawrence O'Donnell
I want to go to that book because with your familiarity with evidence against Jeffrey Epstein, which you've collected a lot of through the discovery process, what do you know specifically about that book? Do you know that they are in that the estate, the relatives of Jeffrey Epstein, in effect through their lawyers, are in possession of that birthday book.
- [32:07]
Jen Psaki
Yes, I, I know that the executors of this date are in possession of that book. And I think that after they turn it over, it should probably be set in the Smithsonian as an artifact. At this point in time, it's going to go down in, in history so that the world can see this, this book and they'll know who were Jeffrey Epstein's best friends at the time, what letters did his family write to him, what other pictures are in there, things of that nature, redact, victim names, release the book and move on. That's it. Yes, the executors have it.
- [32:37]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So you've just identified not just for the news media, but obviously for House Representatives who are now in a mood to subpoena and also Todd Blanche and the Trump Justice Department who suddenly are getting curious about investigating this. You've now told them exactly, according to your knowledge, where the birthday book is, who is in possession of that book. And all the House Representatives would have to do tomorrow is wr a subpoena for that book. And you believe that it would be. They, they would, the lawyers involved would comply with that subpoena.
- [33:12]
Jen Psaki
I know the executors lawyers. I've worked with them for years. They're good people. They're good lawyers. They would comply with the subpoena immediately. I that it's something that we could solve this problem so quickly if people actually want to solve problems. This idea. Yeah, Go ahead.
- [33:28]
Lawrence O'Donnell
One more thing, Bradley. You said, I think you said that some of your clients have specific knowledge of that birthday book.
- [33:36]
Jen Psaki
Sure. Yes. More than one multiple of them.
- [33:39]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And what is that knowledge? They saw it or they were around him when he was 50 years old. Were they present at his birthday, his 50th birthday?
- [33:48]
Jen Psaki
I don't know the answer to that last question. I do know that they were involved in the assembly of the book. Several of them, they were told by Ghislaine to assist in putting the book together. Others have seen the book post. Post birthday and after it was assembled. So the existence of the book is. It's an absolute fact. Now, who wrote letters? What's in the book? You're going to have to get the book to figure it out. But this isn't something that needs to be a mystery forever and drag the victims into all kinds of anxiety for nothing. We can get that answer pretty quickly.
- [34:29]
Lawrence O'Donnell
You know, I knew you were going to tell us information about the whereabouts of the book that I knew before we came on tonight. What I did not think of in all the reporting that's been done about this book and what you just said, which now seems obvious when you say it, is that some of Jeffrey Epstein's victims were actually used by Ghislaine Maxwell to assemble that birthday book, to actually put those letters together in that book.
- [35:02]
Jen Psaki
Yeah. You have to remember that Jeffrey Epstein was abusing and exploiting young women and children every day of his life. So anybody that's around for any major event, such as the assembly of his 50th birthday book, they're going to have to be involved in assembling or playing their part, whatever they were directed to do with respect to that book. So, yes, more than one was involved.
- [35:28]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And just to that last point, you said every day of his life. The evidence that you acquired through the discovery process in representing your clients indicates to you that Jeffrey Epstein was committing this kind of rape with girls from middle school and high school, as you just put it, every day of his life.
- [35:47]
Jen Psaki
Well, I would just the only caveat being young children and young women, probably all under the age of 25. But yes, you're right, as young as 14. And I think that we've represented 50 that were under the age of 18. But it wasn't only minors. Just, just that caveat. I think that the one thing that has really alarmed our clients particularly today is the, the information that now Gillen Maxwell is being visited in jail and that she is somehow being given some credibility and a platform on this particular topic. I think what, what people are forgetting is that Ghislain Maxwell wasn't only indicted on sex trafficking charges. Ghislaine Maxwell, because of testimony she gave on multiple occasions in the civil cases where we sued her, she provided testimony. And as a consequence of false testimony, she was indicted on two perjury counts on this particular topic. So we're at, we're going to go and ask somebody to tell the truth who was indicted on perjury charges related to this particular topic. Now, does she have information that could potentially help? Yes. Will she be truthful about it? Who knows? But whoever is going to be the questioner, whoever's going to be the interrogator must know more than just a rudimentary understanding of the case. You have to have seen her other deposition transcripts to know what she said so that you can keep her in line. You have to know her testimony from her criminal trial to keep her in line. And you have to understand the case, sending somebody there that knows nothing. She's going to say whatever she wants to say. And what's her incentive? Is her incentive because she's going to get a deal? I have many clients who say, look, President Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell were good friends back then. Is he going to commute her? Is he going to pardon her?
- [37:34]
Andrew Weissman
Is to he going.
- [37:35]
Jen Psaki
And I have said to them, look, I know that you feel like an afterthought right now. I know that you feel like you don't matter. For him to do that would be he thought about you and he decided you don't do not matter. I don't think that is on the table. I don't think that he would ever do that. Maybe I'm putting too much trust in him. Maybe I am. But it, but either way, if he's not going to do that, what incentive does she have to say to tell him anything if she's getting nothing out of it? So there's a big problem here with, with the process and it's just another piece of the scandal that is causing enormous anxiety. Let's all remember there were five victims at the heart of the sex trafficking trial against Ghislaine Maxwell. Two are no longer with us. They're dead. We're losing clients because of the anxiety and the suffering of them and their families. And they should be the first thought that every single American has when they think about this case. They shouldn't be an afterthought and they shouldn't be forgotten. And that's how it feels to them and to me.
- [38:45]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And just for the audience, the two that you mentioned, both clients of yours, one took her own life a few months ago and another died of apparent drug overdose last year. Attorney Bradley Edwards, thank you very much for your invaluable perspective on this tonight and what you've revealed to us about your knowledge about that birthday book and how it can be obtained. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [39:11]
Jen Psaki
Thank you for having me, Lawrence. I really appreciate it.
- [39:13]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Thank you. Coming up, Congressman Ro Khanna might want to start working on a new subpoena. He will join us next.
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- [40:56]
Lawrence O'Donnell
The breaking news just minutes ago right here on MSNBC is that Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book that contains a letter that bears Donald Trump's name is in the possession of the Epstein estate in Florida. And the estate lawyers would respond to a subpoena.
- [41:16]
Jen Psaki
Congress could issue a subpoena to their attorneys at Patterson or at Troutman. Those are the two law firms. I know those attorneys. They would turn the book over immediately. Nobody would have to guess. There wouldn't need to be a lawsuit. There wouldn't have to wait to be to be discovery. You would immediately have the answers. You could flip to the page. Is there a letter? Is there not a letter? It's over.
- [41:38]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California, member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman Connor, you have been the driving force in the House of Representatives to get the Epstein from files released to the House. Does it sound like it's time to maybe move for a subpoena to get that book?
- [41:56]
Ro Khanna
Yes, Lawrence, first of all, that was a bombshell revelation by Bradley Edwards. I appreciate your having me on to hear that. It's important what he said, that we have to center the victims in this and it's important to hear what he believes the victims want, which is the full complete release of the Epstein files. We're hearing directly. That's what the victims want. Second, it is a revelation to me that he said that that birthday book is with private lawyers in the Epstein estate. As you know and reported earlier, Summer Lee showed courageous leadership Today on the Oversight committee. We subpoenaed the Epstein files. But that's a hard thing to do to get the Department of Justice to cooperate in releasing those files. What's not hard to do is to subpoena private attorneys in a private estate and to get compliant. So I'm actually going to invite Bradley Edwards to meet with the House Oversight Committee and I think we can easily move forward on this subpoena of that birthday book and which could really advance this case.
- [43:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And this really does change the nature of the story. This is Donald Trump has said that the letter doesn't exist. He said it's not non existent. And so if this birthday book can be obtained, if you can obtain it, you can give us the answer of exactly how Donald Trump is or is not represented in that book.
- [43:25]
Ro Khanna
Absolutely. We will know if the letter the Wall Street Journal reported on, if that is in the book or not or if there are any other letters or correspondence of Donald Trump in the book. We also will know whether hundreds of other people who have been implicated in sex trafficking are in the book. And of course, we would take absolute care to make sure the victims are protected. But the biggest thing I heard tonight is that this is what the victims want. And this should not be a political issue. This should be an issue for justice. And I think it's really courageous that Bradley Edwards came on your program. I appreciate him doing that. And this, this guidance is very helpful for our committee because we can't trust the Trump Justice Department that is going to get slowed down. It's going to be get bogged down. Even if we subpoena, they can try to defy the subpoena. I don't trust the DOJ to prosecute themselves for contempt of Congress. But what we can do through Congress is go after these Jeffrey Epstein estate. And we've seen even Republicans are willing to vote with us on that. This may be the clearance cleanest way forward.
- [44:30]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Carson. Ro Khanna, thank you very much for joining our breaking news coverage tonight.
- [44:35]
Ro Khanna
Thank you.
- [44:36]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And coming up, we'll be back with Andrew Weissman. We'll get his reaction to what he just learned about the Jeffrey Epstein birthday book and how it can be obtained now through subpoena. We'll be right back with Andrew Weissman.
- [44:54]
Jen Psaki
Congress could issue a subpoena to their attorneys at Patterson or at Troutman. Those are the two law firms. I know those attorneys. They would turn the book over immediately. Nobody would have to guess. There wouldn't need to be a lawsuit. There wouldn't have to wait to be to be discovery. You would immediately have the answers. You could flip to the page, is there a letter? Is there not a letter? It's over.
- [45:15]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew Weissman is back with us. And Andrew, I suspect that Ro Khanna and the House representatives might be in a subpoena race right now with the Trump Justice Department. It is entirely possible that the Trump Justice Department could issue a subpoena immediately to try to obtain that birthday book from the estate in Florida that Bradley Edwards just identified is in possession of the Epstein birthday book, which is supposed to contain a letter that bears Donald Trump's name. Is it possible that the Justice Department could just subpoena that first thing tomorrow morning, get possession of it, and no one would ever see it?
- [45:56]
Andrew Weissman
That is possible. It is also possible that they actually have it already. Remember that the Department of Justice has said that they have 30 gigabytes of information pursuant to this investigation. Remember, this case went to trial. So there's been a thorough investigation before today. And so we don't know the full complement of everything they have. I should also point out, in addition to. To the point that your guest made, which was just wonderful, is that what you could subpoena from the estate is not just the birthday book, but if it's the estate of Jeffrey Epstein, they may have a whole repository of information about what he was doing and detailed records of who he was doing it with. And so the subpoena does not have to be so narrowly tailored that it's just asking for this. The other thing, Lawrence, I just want to make a point of. The real issue here that people shouldn't forget is the callousness of the Department of Justice and what it's doing. The victims had a right to notice. They had a right to be heard from before any motion was made to make anything public. Their voices are statutorily required to be heard. And the judges vindicated that. But you have the deputy Attorney general ignoring the law, and it really sends a red flag that this is being done for political purposes, that you would ignore the victims in a case like this. Presumably, that is why the case was being brought, was to vindicate their rights. And you're seeing that thrown away. And I think that's the real message from your last guess.
- [47:55]
Lawrence O'Donnell
So to stay on the birthday book for another minute, is it possible that the estate has the original and that the Epstein files in the Justice Department have a copy of it?
- [48:09]
Andrew Weissman
Yes, absolutely. Or vice versa. It is quite typical when I did investigations that we would, if necessary, have the original but leave a copy. And sometimes it would be the reverse because we didn't need to have the original. Sometimes you want that for evidentiary value. But this is the kind of thing that I would be. I wouldn't be. It wouldn't be beyond the, you know, the possibility. But I think it would be unlikely that prosecutors as adept as those in the Southern District of New York who had this case, that they would not have seen this already even if they didn't take the original.
- [48:54]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. And at the end, when the Epstein suicide happens, that case is over. Is there appointed processes like that where the prosecutors have possession of material that they've obtained where they simply say, okay, we handing this back because it has no evidentiary value for us. We're not using this in court, so we're going to give this original back.
- [49:18]
Andrew Weissman
That does happen, but it wouldn't have happened in this case at this point. Why? Because Ghislaine Maxwell still was going to trial and her case is not over. There still is an appeals process. In fact, in a request for FOIA documents, that is for the public release of documents, there was litigation over that. The Department of Justice took the position that they couldn't turn things over because the Ghislaine Maxwell case was still ongoing. Because of that appeals process, while that is ongoing, you do not return evidence because you don't know if you may need it going forward. So I would find it highly unlikely that that material would have been turned back over to a private part party at this point.
- [50:05]
Lawrence O'Donnell
And just to underline your point, the procedure to get grand jury testimony released requires you to, first of all, get notice to possible victims in that testimony and make sure it's okay with them. And the Trump Justice Department didn't do that, which seems to make their attempt to get the grand jury information released just a legally phony attempt.
- [50:31]
Andrew Weissman
It is. It is a complete phony red herring in my view. As you pointed out in your initial introduction, any single day of the week this minute, there are 30 gigabytes of investigative material that are that presumably a huge portion of that is not grand jury material. The government does not need court authorization to turn that over.
- [50:58]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Andrew Weissman, I'm going to need you back here tomorrow night. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
- [51:03]
Andrew Weissman
See you tomorrow.
- [51:04]
Lawrence O'Donnell
That is tonight's last word.
- [51:06]
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