Estimated 7 Million protest against Trump nationwide

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode Title: Estimated 7 Million protest against Trump nationwide
Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell (with Jonathan Capehart as guest anchor)
Guests: Ezra Levin, Brandon Johnson, Eric Swalwell, Joyce Vance, Lisa Rubin

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Overview

This episode centers on the unprecedented nationwide “No Kings” protest, where an estimated 7 million Americans marched in opposition to former president Donald Trump’s increasingly authoritarian policies and rhetoric. The conversation weaves together scenes from the protests, the Trump administration’s dismissive and mocking response (including an AI-generated video), analysis of the government shutdown, the Epstein files controversy, attacks on institutions, and the enduring struggle to safeguard democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “No Kings” Nationwide Protests

• Peaceful Mass Mobilization:
  On Saturday, almost 7 million Americans participated in nearly 3,000 events across the country, uniting under the banner “No Kings” to denounce Trump’s authoritarian tendencies and to affirm that the United States rejects monarchy and dictatorship.

  • “This is the most American thing that you can do. Protest and speak for what you believe in.” — Jonathan Capehart [01:13]
  • NYPD reported over 100,000 peaceful protesters in New York, zero arrests. Chicago saw up to 250,000 participating.

• Unified Message:
  Protesters from diverse backgrounds and regions—urban and rural, red states and blue—sent a clear message that there is “no king in America.”

  • “We don't do kings in this country.” — Ezra Levin [07:58]
  • “We will not bend. We will not bow, we will not cower. We will not submit to the authoritarianism that is coming down.” — Brandon Johnson [05:01]

2. Trump and Republican Response

• AI Video Mockery:
  Trump posted an “AI-generated video” of himself as a fighter pilot dreaming of being “King Trump,” dropping feces on protesters, set to Kenny Loggins’ “Danger Zone.”

  • “That was the President of the United States Response to Americans exercising their right to protest.” — Jonathan Capehart [02:30]
  • Kenny Loggins publicly disavowed the video, emphasizing unity, not division:

    “Too many people are trying to tear us apart and we need to find new ways to come together... There is no us and them. That’s not who we are, nor is it what we should be.” — Kenny Loggins, statement relayed by Capehart [03:00]

• GOP Branding as “Hate America” Rally:
  Republicans, including Mike Johnson, labeled the peaceful protests as anti-American.

  • “They're between an Iraq and a hard place. They're implementing the least popular agenda in modern American history. And the largest peaceful protest in history was just on the streets on Saturday… they're trying to say either it didn't ever happen, it wasn't real, or those weren't real Americans.” — Ezra Levin [09:30]

3. Government Dysfunction and Shutdown

• Third Longest Shutdown:
  With the government now in its third-longest shutdown, hundreds of thousands missed paychecks, federal workers suffered, and no legislative progress was made.

  • “Trump did nothing about that today.” — Jonathan Capehart [05:39]

• GOP Stalling on Epstein Files:
  The House GOP’s refusal to swear in Adelita Grijalva blocked the release of the Epstein files.

  • “Mike Johnson right now stands as a pedophile protector.” — Eric Swalwell [23:13]

4. Economic Hardship and Public Sentiment

• Auto Loan Delinquencies, Wage Stagnation, and Inflation:
  Rising delinquencies and stagnant paychecks are hurting Americans, exacerbated by Trump’s tariffs.

  • “Americans paychecks are still not keeping up with inflation as the Trump tariffs make everyday goods more expensive.” — Jonathan Capehart [05:39]
  • “We were promised lower costs on day one... The president has not shown any focus on reducing what we spend or raising the wages.” — Eric Swalwell [26:04]

• Polls Show Widespread Dissatisfaction:
  Trump’s approval at 37%, 68% negative on the economy, and 47% not confident they could find a job.

  • [25:24]

5. International Issues: Ukraine and Russia

• Trump Undercutting Ukraine:
  Trump suggested Ukraine should cede territory to Russia, echoing Putin’s stance, alarming allies and undercutting U.S. support for democracy.
  • “He deserves nothing. He is weak. He's failed in this effort… We look like we're leaving our friends in the fields.” — Eric Swalwell [22:11]

6. Labor and Civil Rights Movement: Calls for a General Strike

• Chicago’s Leadership:
  Mayor Brandon Johnson called for a general strike to fight for workers, schools, and social services, recalling the legacy of labor and civil rights unity.

  • “If my ancestors as slaves can lead the greatest general strike in the history of this country... we can do the same.” — Brandon Johnson [12:55]
  • Emphasized the need for real economic demands and organizing: “If that means, of course, withholding our labor, if we're not prepared to do that, then I don't see how we can transform this country.” [13:38]

• Legal Resistance:
  Johnson discussed leading a multi-city lawsuit against the Trump administration for withholding disaster relief funds.

  • “We have to band together to fight back and the courts, that's still one place where I believe that there is some check on this administration.” — Brandon Johnson [15:07]

7. Justice Department as Trump’s ‘Revenge Squad’

• James Comey Prosecution:
  Trump’s DOJ indicted Comey, but his lawyers filed motions to dismiss, citing selective/vindictive prosecution and improper US attorney appointment.

  • “There’s a very strong case here in both regards. It’s likely that this case won’t go to trial.” — Joyce Vance [31:06]
  • “If there's ever a case where a motion like this will succeed, it's this case where the president has trumpeted the fact that he's targeting Jim Comey.” — Joyce Vance [30:40]

• Attack on Defense Counsel:
  DOJ’s attempt to disqualify Comey’s lawyer, Patrick Fitzgerald, was debunked as unsubstantiated.

  • “I think that there's a zero chance that they'll succeed in getting him removed. You know, this response that Fitzgerald has filed is indignant and rightfully so.” — Joyce Vance [32:31]

8. Epstein Case and Institutional Failure

• Alex Acosta’s Congressional Testimony:
  Former Labor Secretary Alex Acosta defended the lenient Epstein plea, citing issues with victims’ testimony credibility and claiming the deal was necessary.
  • “This case would be a crapshoot.” — Alex Acosta, testimony relayed by Jonathan Capehart [37:11]
  • Lisa Rubin highlighted the lack of remorse and failure to protect victims:

    “He was almost treating it [the OPR report] like an oral argument bible instead of it being testimony... in terms of his own real time recollection, he had very little of it.” — Lisa Rubin [41:40] “If you don't think that resulted in some intimidation campaigns against those people, you're kidding yourself.” — Lisa Rubin [43:00]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the protest's historic scale:
  “Keep that in mind. The largest protest in American history in a single day happened on Saturday.” — Ezra Levin [07:38]

• On the “No Kings” ethos:
  “This is not the Trump era. This is the no Kings era. Trump just happens to be living in it. There are more of us than there are of them.” — Ezra Levin [07:40]

• On the potential of the movement:
  “What it means is that working people across this country have to send a real strong message to the ultra rich and to these large corporations.” — Brandon Johnson [13:38]

• On GOP leadership’s defense of Trump:
  “Mike Johnson right now stands as a pedophile protector. That's what he's doing by protecting Jeffrey Epstein's legacy.” — Eric Swalwell [23:13]

• On the importance of hope:
  “Do I want somebody to look at this and be scared? No. I want them to be hopeful that actually we are going to build a better future together.” — Ezra Levin [08:50]

• On institutional resilience:
  “Give people confidence that the country had been through bad times before… we had fought our way through because people and institutions can mobilize.” — Joyce Vance [33:46]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] – Overview of nationwide “No Kings” protests
• [02:30] – Trump’s AI video response; Kenny Loggins’ statement
• [04:18] – GOP efforts to reframe the protests as “hate America” rallies
• [05:01] – Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson’s rally speech
• [07:35] – Ezra Levin discusses the lasting impact and scale of the protests
• [11:40] – Brandon Johnson on Chicago’s leadership and organizing a general strike
• [12:55] – Johnson’s remarks on the historic role of labor strikes
• [15:07] – Multicity lawsuit for disaster relief funds
• [19:44] – Government shutdown, Epstein files controversy, and Mike Johnson’s stalling
• [21:49] – Eric Swalwell on Trump’s policy toward Ukraine and siding with Putin
• [23:08] – Swalwell on GOP’s obstruction related to Epstein files
• [26:00] – Public sentiment at “No Kings” rallies across California
• [29:32] – Joyce Vance on the legal battle over DOJ prosecution of Comey
• [31:06] – Assessment of legal motions to dismiss
• [35:28] – The failures in Epstein prosecution and Alex Acosta’s testimony
• [39:58] – House Oversight questioning Alex Acosta
• [41:08] – Lisa Rubin’s analysis of Acosta’s defense and the failures in the case
• [43:00] – Discussion of victim intimidation and non-prosecution agreement issues

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Summary

This episode paints a vivid, urgent portrait of a nation at a pivotal crossroads. The largest protest in U.S. history signals the power of peaceful civil mobilization against authoritarianism, while the Trump administration and Republican leaders respond with mockery and obstruction. Economic hardship, government shutdown, and attacks on institutions further motivate civic action. Calls for a general strike and legal challenge echo the nation’s foundational principles. The episode closes with critical legal insight into Trump’s use of the Justice Department for retribution, failures in the Epstein prosecution, and the role of resistance in upholding democracy. The tone imparts both the gravity of the moment and the enduring belief in collective action and American democracy.

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Transcript

[Eric Swalwell]

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[Jonathan Capehart]

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[Eric Swalwell]

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[Ezra Levin]

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[Jonathan Capehart]

When work gets crazy, I like to stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones.

[Joyce Vance]

I don't drink at all until 4 o'.

[Lisa Rubin]

Clock.

[Jonathan Capehart]

We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night. Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly.

[Eric Swalwell]

We'Re at greater risk for long term.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink the Drink [e-mail] Noha Initiative 7 million that's how many Americans took to the streets on Saturday at nearly 3,000 events nationwide. Marching under one banner. No kings. This is the most American thing that you can do. Protest and speak for what you believe in.

[Lisa Rubin]

The people who come out here and.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Fight and who want to resist, those are the people who make change. Those are the people who make.

[Eric Swalwell]

I wore the uniform since I was 18 years old.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I never thought I would see this.

[Joyce Vance]

We live by the Constitution and that we need to protect that more than anything.

[Ezra Levin]

They're not going to intimidate us with tyrant talk. We are out here to stand up for this democracy.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Do not cower to the fascism and the threats that are coming from dc.

[Brandon Johnson]

That's what they want us to do.

[Jonathan Capehart]

And they will only be successful in that if we remain silent.

[Joyce Vance]

I don't think we need a king. We definitely don't need a dictator and it's time for him to go.

[Jonathan Capehart]

We have a Constitution for a reason. It provides us inalienable rights that we have to adhere to. And in this country we have no kings. Period. According to the NYPD, more than 100,000 New Yorkers marched across all five boroughs, quote, peacefully exercising their First Amendment rights. And the NYPD made zero protest related arrests. And while thousands packed Times Square in Donald Trump's hometown to protest against Trump's authoritarian playbook, Donald Trump posted an AI generated video of himself as a fighter pilot flying a jet labeled King Trump while wearing a crown. The New York Times reports, quote, the fake video set to the song Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins shows the plane dropping a brown liquid resembling feces onto the heads of protesters who appeared to be gathered in a city that was the President of the United States Response to Americans exercising their right to protest. In a statement, Kenny Loggins said, quote, I can't imagine why anybody would want their music used or associated with something created with the sole purpose of dividing us. Too many people are trying to tear us apart and we need to find new ways to come together. We're all Americans and we're all patriotic. There is no us and them. That's not who we are, nor is it what we should be. It's all of us. We're in this together. And it is my hope that we can embrace music as a way of celebrating and uniting each and every one of us. But tell that to Republicans who have spent weeks calling the no Kings protests a, quote, hate America rally and dismissing the concerns of everyday American citizens across the country. Tell that to House Speaker Mike Johnson, who continued to spread those lies days after the peaceful protests. This morning, Mike Johnson displayed photos of signs at Saturday's protests and defended Donald Trump's AI video.

[Ezra Levin]

The president uses social media to make a point. You can argue he's probably the most effective person who's ever used social media for that. He is using satire to make a point.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Mike Johnson never said what that point was. Meanwhile, here on Earth One, millions of Americans were living in reality and defending it, including in Chicago, where an estimated 250,000 Chicagoans peacefully demonstrated against Donald Trump's policies and his deportation campaign against their city. Our next guest, Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, spoke at Saturday's rally.

[Brandon Johnson]

We will not bend. We will not bow, we will not cower. We will not submit to the authoritarianism that is coming down. I want to make this point emphatically clear that the attempt to divide and conquer this nation will not prevail because when the people are united, justice always prevail.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Now, here's what Trump could be working on while he's posting dumb juvenile videos. Today, the government shutdown became the third longest shutdown in history. And with no end in sight, hundreds of thousands of federal employees are missing paychecks. Trump did nothing about that today. Under President Trump, auto loan delinquencies are surging. The Washington Post reports, quote, the weakness in the auto market is one of the clearest indications that low and middle income families, the economy's foundation, could be starting to buckle because many Americans need their cars to get around. Auto loan delinquencies can be a telling gauge of financial hardship. Trump did Nothing about that. Under President Trump, Americans paychecks are still not keeping up with inflation as the Trump tariffs make everyday goods more expensive. A new poll shows 68% of adults describe the economy these days as poor, while 32% say it's good. 59% say their family finances are holding steady, and 28% say they are falling behind. Only 12% say they're getting ahead. Those are real issues Americans are dealing with. And yet the President of the United States seems more interested in being a king, both in reality and in warped digital fantasies. That's why millions of Americans showed up on Saturday peacefully marching, speaking out, and reminding the country that in this nation, the power belongs to the people. Leading off our discussion tonight, Ezra Levin, co founder and co executive director of the Indivisible Project. Ezra, great to see you again. It's been a long time. What do you want Americans to take away from seeing millions march across the country?

[Ezra Levin]

Look, I want them to understand that this is not the Trump era. This is the no Kings era. Trump just happens to be living in it. There are more of us than there are of them. And we demonstrated with the largest protest in American history. Keep that in mind. The largest protest in American history in a single day happened on Saturday. And it was people in blue states, in red states, in purple states, people in rural areas, in city centers, in deep Trump country. They were showing up to say something very simple, that we don't do kings in this country. And Donald Trump, look, he wants us at each other's throats. He wants us to believe there is a war brewing in Portland or in Chicago or in rural America or in deep blue city America, that it's the red states versus the blue states. And this is the fight that we've got to fight. But we had 2,700 events in every single congressional district district in this country on Saturday and there wasn't one reported instance of violence. The world that Donald Trump thinks that we live in does not exist. It's only in his AI addled brain that it exists. He's got the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. While normal, everyday Americans are standing up to fight for their First Amendment rights. Do I want somebody to look at this and be scared? No. I want them to be hopeful that actually we are going to build a better future together and it is okay to stand up and oppose this regime.

[Jonathan Capehart]

So, Ezra, what is your response to Trump's meltdown and Speaker Johnson and other Republicans who called what happened on Saturday a hate America rally?

[Ezra Levin]

Well, you just have to first laugh, right, because they couldn't even call it no Kings because they knew how unobjectionable the branding of no Kings was. Who would disagree with no Kings in America? So they spent 10 days or more every day talking about how this was the Hate America rally and there were going to be violent communists in the streets. And then lo and behold, none of that materializes and they have to scramble. So I feel for them. They're between an Iraq and a hard place. They're implementing the least popular agenda in modern American history. And the largest peaceful protest in history was just on the streets on Saturday. They've got to figure out something to say. So they're trying to say either it didn't ever happen, it wasn't real, or those weren't real Americans. I don't think they have a good argument here. If I was them, I would stop shutting down the government and closing rural hospitals and jacking up health care premiums and start implementing a policy agenda that people won't protest in record numbers against.

[Jonathan Capehart]

How do you, Ezra, how do you keep the momentum going after such a massive turnout? What's next for the no Kings movement?

[Ezra Levin]

Gosh, that is the question, Jonathan. That is the question. But I want to remind folks, this didn't come out of nowhere. In April we had 3 million people out in 1300 events for hands off. In June we had 5 million people out in 2100 events. And then on Saturday we had 7 million people out at 2700 events. 3 million. 5 million. 7 million. Though momentum is going, it is building. What I would encourage everybody watching to do next is come to the no Kings follow up call tomorrow night at 8pm we are going to be talking about how we turn one day marches into consistent, productive on the ground organizing. And I don't care if you're in a blue state, a red state or a purple state, you are needed in this movement. We are still growing and there's a lot more work to do.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Ezra Levin, my fellow Carleton grad, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word.

[Ezra Levin]

Thanks Jonathan.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Joining us now is the mayor of Chicago, Brandon Johnson. Mayor Johnson, great to see you again. Thank you for coming to the Last Word. How did you feel when you looked around at the turnout in Chicago on Saturday?

[Brandon Johnson]

Yeah, very encouraged. Over 100,000 people in the streets throughout the city of Chicago. Some estimated 250,000 people, obviously 7 million around the country. I'm certainly encouraged that the people of not just the city of Chicago, but people across the country are really beginning to wake up and see what it's going to take to beat back against this authoritarian rule.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Do you worry? Mayor, your speech at Saturday's no Kings rally will further put you and your city, the city of Chicago, in the crosshairs of the Trump administration.

[Brandon Johnson]

Look, we're already in the mix, right? You know, the President of the United States of America declared war on the city of Chicago. In fact, he's declared war on working people across this country. And in order for us to beat back this tyranny, it's going to take all of us to be organized and to be clear about our demands, making sure that our schools are funded, health care is fully funded, transportation, good paying jobs. These are the things that the people of this country desperately need, particularly at a time in which the ultra rich continue to get richer under administration.

[Jonathan Capehart]

At Saturday's rally, Mayor, you called for a general strike. I want to play some of what you said.

[Brandon Johnson]

If my ancestors as slaves can lead the greatest general strike in the history of this country, taking it to the ultra rich and big corporations, we can do the same. Today we are going to make them pay their fair share of in taxes to fund our schools, to fund jobs, to fund health care, to fund transportations. Democracy will live on because of this generation. Are you ready to take it to the courts and to the streets?

[Jonathan Capehart]

What would a successful strike look like to you?

[Brandon Johnson]

Well, first of all, if there was ever a time for working people to unite across our country, this is that time. You know, I'm reminded of the words of Dr. When he said that if the labor rights movement and the civil rights movement were to ever collide, what enormous potential we would have. And we're in the midst of that right now. What it means is that working people across this country have to send a real strong message to the ultra rich into these large corporations who have received one of the greatest tax cuts and benefits than any other time in the history of our country. And if we're not willing to put forth some real economic demands, if that means, of course, withholding our labor, if we're not prepared to do that, then I don't see how we can transform this country. Every single major social movement throughout our history had a full strategy, whether it was litigation, the courts, and also economic boycott, particularly at a time in which the concentration of wealth continues to grow while more and more people continue to barely have the ends meeting at the end of each week and at the end of each month.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Yeah, I'm sitting here thinking about the Montgomery bus boycott. One more question for you. Mayor Johnson, you filed another lawsuit against the Trump administration, this time because Trump has threatened to withhold tens of millions of dollars in critical federal grants for disaster relief. What message do you hope the lawsuit sends to other cities facing those same challenges?

[Brandon Johnson]

Look, we have to band together to fight back and the courts, that's still one place where I believe that there is some check on this administration. And when we filed this lawsuit, there were eight other cities that joined us, just like there are cities across this country that are now creating ice free zones. Right. And so what we're doing is simply leading the only way Chicago knows how. Being on the front lines is something that we're very accustomed to, and it's going to take all of us to ensure that we dismantle tyranny in this country, save our democr democracy and protect humanity.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word.

[Brandon Johnson]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Capehart]

And coming up, Donald Trump and his Republican allies have spent 20 days hiding from the Epstein scandal as the government remains shut down. But our next guest, Congressman Eric Swalwell, saw firsthand at California's no Kings rally that the American people are done with Trump's abuse of power. That's next.

[Brandon Johnson]

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate, and believe it.

[Joyce Vance]

Or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I'm Gabe Wiedman. I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends for 20 years and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives. It's called I need you guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables?

[Joyce Vance]

Can I drink the water at the hospital?

[Jonathan Capehart]

My landlord plays the trombone and I can't ask him to stop.

[Brandon Johnson]

You should make sure that you subscribe.

[Joyce Vance]

So that you never miss an episode.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I need you guys.

[Joyce Vance]

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[Jonathan Capehart]

Everybody sleeps, but no two people sleep alike. At Coop Sleep Goods, we celebrate the way you sleep differently. We believe everyone deserves a great night's sleep with their own pillow. And the adjustable, customizable Coop pillow makes it easy. Whether you're a side sleeper, back sleeper or even a starfish, we've got the perfect pillow for you. Crafted with our innovative memory foam and microfiber fill, our hypoallergenic pillows adjust to you and not the other way around. Just tailor the fill for the perfect fit. Add some in, take some out until your pillow's right for you. See why luxury hotels and spas worldwide feature coop sleep goods and why we have tens of thousands of 5 star reviews. With our 100 night risk free trial, you've got nothing to lose except those sleepless nights. Get 20% off your first order when you visit coopsleepgoods.com podcastnews that's coopsleepgoods.com PodcastNews Today marks day 20 of the Trump Republican government shutdown and still no progress. The House of Representatives was out of session again today, which means that since August, Republican Speaker Mike Johnson has allowed just 12 legislative days for House members. 12 in three months. Democrats say there's a reason for that, and it's to shield Donald Trump from the embarrassment of what's in the Epstein files. Speaker Johnson is still refusing to swear in Arizona's newly elected Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva, who just happens to be the 218th signature needed on a bipartisan discharge petition that would force a vote to release the Epstein files. Instead of reopening the government or seating a duly elected member of Congress, Speaker Johnson spent his weekend defending Trump's latest distraction. Trump abruptly announced Friday he was commuting the seven year prison sentence of former Republican Congressman Jorge Santos. Santos was convicted of 27 felonies, including wire fraud, identity theft and more. But Trump says the crime didn't fit the punishment because, quote, at least Santos had the courage, conviction and intelligence to this is in all caps. Always vote Republican. Here's what Speaker Johnson said about that on ABC this week.

[Ezra Levin]

At least President Trump is fully transparent. He goes out and explains his Is.

[Jonathan Capehart]

It okay for him to say, essentially.

[Ezra Levin]

I'm pardoning somebody because they always had the courage? That's not the reason he pardoned conviction.

[Jonathan Capehart]

And intelligence to always vote Republican.

[Ezra Levin]

That's one snippet of what he said, among many things about George Santos. But should that be a factor in pardoning somebody, that they voted Republican? I don't think it was clemency. No, I don't think it was. I just think he's talking about this individual and his past and at least he's open and transparent about it.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Come on, Speaker Johnson, open and transparent. Donald Trump has never been fully transparent about anything. Not his taxes, not his abuse of power and not his motives. Like with Ukraine, Trump has turned his back on America's allies during Russia's war on Ukraine time and time again and taking Russian President Vladimir Putin's positions and talking points instead. Now we are learning more about Trump's private meeting with Ukrainian President Zelensky at the White House this past Friday, CNBC reports. Trump, who said Ukraine should accept Russia's terms for ending the war by handing over the entire eastern territory of Donbas, also warned the Ukrainian leader that Putin had told him he, in a lengthy phone call on Thursday in which they agreed to hold in person talks in Hungary that Russia would, quote, destroy Ukraine if it did not agree to the demand. The meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy descended into a shouting match, the Financial Times reported, with Trump cursing all the time, according to unnamed people familiar with the matter cited by the ft. At the end of that meeting, Trump declined Zelenskyy's request for Ukraine to use United States supply of long range Tomahawk missiles against Russia. Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He is a member of the Judiciary and House Homeland Security Committees. Congressman Swalwell, great to see you.

[Eric Swalwell]

You too, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Trump is now telling reporters the best way to end the war with Russia is to give away Ukrainian land to Putin. Isn't this exactly what Putin wants?

[Eric Swalwell]

Look, last week Trump said that perhaps Zelensky was going to get Tomahawk missiles. And then Daddy Putin called him and said that he had spoken out of school. And now Trump looks quite weak. He's not able to deliver on what he promised to Zelensky. For Americans, we look like we're leaving our friends in the fields and our allies again are scratching their head wondering if we're really committed to the cause of democracy. But at the end of the day, Jonathan, Donald Trump said this conflict would end on day one. We are approaching day 300. We are no closer. He thinks he deserves a Nobel Prize. He deserves nothing. He is weak. He's failed in this effort. Ukraine again is threatened. Democracy is on the line and the American presidency and its ability to deliver remains in question to people who are counting on us.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Let's switch gears to the shutdown. Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries said that he spoke with Speaker Johnson over the weekend. What do you know about where the shutdown stands?

[Eric Swalwell]

People are hurting. And they know that Republicans run the White House, the Senate and the House. They could open up the Congress and have us negotiate, but they won't. Do it for a couple reasons. First and foremost, they know the second they do it, they have to vote on releasing the Epstein files, which means admitting just how close Donald Trump is to the most notorious child sex trafficker. So Mike Johnson right now stands as a pedophile protector. That's what he's doing by protecting Jeffrey Epstein's legacy in history from becoming more public. But second, Jonathan, as we approach open enrollment, where most Americans find out what their health insurance premiums are gonna cost every month, Republicans refuse to put back in place subsidies that make sure low income and middle class Americans can afford health insurance. And if you're not a low income or middle class American, Jonathan, you're still affected because the way health insurance works is the more people who are insured, the less that we all pay. So Republicans don't wanna work, have closed down Congress, have closed down the federal government aren't paying federal workers and most Americans are gonna pay more next year when it comes to the health insurance premium.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Well, I mean, you can't get those Epstein files released that you were talking about earlier until you get 218 votes. And that can't happen because of the inability of the House speaker to swear in at Alita Grijalva. Let me get your reaction to what Speaker Johnson said earlier today about why he's not swearing in the Congresswoman. Electricity.

[Ezra Levin]

I will administer the oath to her. I hope on the first day we come back legislative session. I'm willing and anxious to do that. In the meantime, Instead of doing TikTok videos, she should be serving her constituents. She could be taking their calls. She can be directing them, trying to help them through the crisis that the Democrats have created by shutting down the government.

[Eric Swalwell]

I'm sorry, no. Dumb, dumb. She doesn't have constituents. She's not a member of Congress. She doesn't have a budget to help anybody again, he has a new answer for this every single time he is asked. But the motive remains the same. He is a pedophile protector. He is protecting Jeffrey Epstein and he's protecting Donald Trump from all of us. Learning just how close Trump is to Epstein.

[Jonathan Capehart]

New polling from the Associated Press is showing how Americans are feeling. Ten months into the Trump administration. Donald Trump's approval rating stands at 37%. 68% of Americans have a negative view of the US economy. And 47% of US adults are not very or not at all confident they could find a job if they wanted to. A 10 point jump from October of 2023. Congress. Swalwell, did you encounter any buyers remorse or people who thought Trump might make the economy better at no Kings this weekend?

[Eric Swalwell]

Yes, I spoke at the no Kings rally in Sacramento and also in Pleasanton, California, in my district. And what I heard was we were promised lower costs on day one. And people in my district work very hard. And they expect that if they're going to bet on them on themselves, that their country will bet on them, that they'll bet on their health care, they'll bet on increasing their wages and lowering their costs, bet on their safety. And we have not seen any of that. The president has not shown any focus on reducing what we spend or raising the wages we have to spend on what we need to provide. That's why his numbers are in the tank. If he just focused on that, if he declared war on high prices rather than war on America's cities, he would find a lot more confidence in him from the American people.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Congressman Eric Swalwell, great state of California, thank you very much. My pleasure. For coming back to the last word. Coming up, the latest developments on Donald Trump's revenge tour. Joyce Vance joins us next. Now to the latest on Donald Trump's push to have the Justice Department act as his own personal revenge squad. Attorneys for former FBI Director James Comey filed motions today seeking to get the criminal charges against him dropped for what they characterized as, quote, multiple glaring constitutional violations and an egregious abuse of power by the federal government. One motion states the government has singled out Mr. Comey for prosecution because of his protected speech and because of President Trump's personal animus toward Mr. Comey. Such a vindictive and selective prosecution violates the First Amendment, due process clause and equal protection principles. The proper remedy for this unconstitutional prosecution is dismissal with prejudice. That came hours after James Comey's counsel pushed back on claims made by the Trump Justice Department that Comey's attorney should be disqualified in this case. Politico reports federal prosecutors signaled Sunday that they may seek to boot Patrick Fitzgerald, James Comey's lead defense attorney, because of Fitzgerald's alleged involvement in disclosures to the media shortly after President Donald Trump fired Comey as FBI director in 2017. Fitzgerald fired back at prosecutors Monday morning, accusing them of attempting to defame him with demonstrably false allegations. Quote, there was no leaking of classified information to the press by either Mr. Comey or his counsel. Full stop, Fitzgerald and other defense attorneys wrote. Patrick Fitzgerald is a former federal prosecutor himself with experience prosecuting high profile cases involving organized crime, terrorism and political corruption. Two of the men Fitzgerald helped put in prison. Former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and Scooter Libby, the former chief of staff to former Vice President Dick Cheney, were later pardoned by Trump, who is, of course, himself a convicted criminal, just so you remember. Joining us now, Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney and a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law. She is an MSNBC legal analyst and also the author of the new book. Her first book, Giving up is A Manual for Keeping a Democracy, which comes out tomorrow. Joyce, congratulations.

[Joyce Vance]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Welcome back to the Last Word. So, first, take us through the motion to dismiss filed today by former FBI Director Comey.

[Joyce Vance]

Right. So there are two motions to dismiss. One argues that this is a selective and vindictive prosecution, and the indictment is due to be dismissed on that grounds. The other is very interesting. It argues that Trump's new appointment to be the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia was improperly appointed.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Improperly. What's her name again?

[Joyce Vance]

Put in office. Her name is Lindsey Halligan. She's an insurance lawyer from Florida. She was dropped into the Eastern District of Virginia. And so this unusual motion says, actually it should have been up to the court to appoint a new U.S. attorney, but because Trump put her in place and she signed the indictment, it's invalid. And the key to both of these motions, Jonathan, is the same. It's the remedy that Comey's team asks for. They ask that the indictment be dismissed with prejudice, which means the government can't file any charges against Comey afterward.

[Jonathan Capehart]

How successful do you think they'll be?

[Joyce Vance]

You know, typically, motions for successive, or rather for selective and vindictive prosecution for fail, they face a whole host of procedural hurdles. But if there's ever a case where a motion like this will succeed, it's this case where the president has trumpeted the fact that he's targeting Jim Comey. There was this, I think it was, frankly, a text message gone astray, posted publicly on Truth Social to the Attorney General.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Oh, the one that said Pam.

[Joyce Vance]

Directing her. Yes, Pam. Pam, please prosecute Director Comey. I'm paraphrasing. And so I think that there's a very strong case here in both regards. It's likely that this case won't go to trial.

[Jonathan Capehart]

You accurately predicted both of today's motions in your substack nearly two weeks ago.

[Joyce Vance]

Well, it wasn't much of a prediction now because Pat Fitzgerald, Comey's lawyer, had said he would file them.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Okay, well, I'm still going to quote you to you. Everything is building towards the two motions. The defense said it expected to file one to dismiss the cases because Halligan, the only prosecutor to sign the indictment, wasn't properly appointed to office. So the indictment is fatally flawed. A second motion will charge some species of selective and or vindictive prosecution. That latter motion in particular keeps looking better and better. So do you think this case will even make it to trial, I think you just said a moment ago? No.

[Joyce Vance]

I mean, I do. I think that there's a good chance that it gets dismissed. The judge in this case is a Biden appointee, but he has a reputation as being straight up the middle. He was a federal public defender before he became a judge. I think he'll look at the law and the facts in this case, and they are not good for the government.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Is there any chance the Trump team is successful in getting Patrick Fitzgerald removed from the case?

[Joyce Vance]

I think that there's a zero chance that they'll succeed in getting him removed. You know, this response that Fitzgerald has filed is indignant and rightfully so. He says that the motion wasn't made in good faith, and it's a little bit strange. This is all about an effort by the government to review some evidence that they obtained electronically in another case years ago for use in this case. And what happened was they asked the judge to decide their request to do that very quickly, more quickly than the local rules provide for. And in the course of this sort of obscure procedural motion, they make the statement. By the way, we think that Pat Fitzgerald and Jim Comey were crying together that they were involved in this release of classified documents. The response says, absolutely not. There's an inspector general report that says no. And the Justice Department looked at the situation and declined to prosecute. And so Fitzgerald and Comey accused Trump's attention new U.S. attorney of making the allegations in bad faith.

[Jonathan Capehart]

All right, let's talk about this again. Your first book. As someone who's also written their first book, I know how exciting tomorrow must be for you. What do you hope readers get from your book?

[Joyce Vance]

You know, do you remember that feeling after Kamala Harris lost and people were dejected and ready to give up on democracy? That filled me with a lot of sadness. And what I wanted to do was go back and look at our country's history and look at the rule of law and get. Give people confidence that the country had been through bad times before, times that looked, you know, pretty unsalvageable and that we had fought our way through because people and institutions can mobilize and they can be nimble about finding new ways to uphold democracy. And so that's what I hope people will do. I hope that they'll find a reason. You know, 7 million of us did it over the weekend. We're moving the right direction. We just can't afford to give up.

[Jonathan Capehart]

And I was about to ask you, what signs did you get from Saturday that show that the American people haven't given up?

[Joyce Vance]

You know, I think that we see a lot of people who are out there, and the important thing is if all of those people will talk with their friends and neighbors about what's going on, it's these small conversations between Americans that matter the most.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Absolutely. I'm so, I'm, I didn't even write this book. I'm so excited for you. Published day is tomorrow. Joyce Vance, thank you as always for coming to the.

[Joyce Vance]

Thanks, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Capehart]

The new book is called Giving up is a manual for keeping a Democracy. For keeping a democracy. Coming up, this case would be a crapshoot. That's how Donald Trump's former Labor secretary, Alex Acosta described a potential trial against Jeffrey Epstein to the House Oversight Committee. Lisa Rubin will join us next to discuss more of what we learned from Alex Acosta testimony.

[Brandon Johnson]

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate and believe it.

[Joyce Vance]

Or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I'm Gabe Wiedman. I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends for 20 years and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives. It's called I need you guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables?

[Joyce Vance]

Can I drink the water at the hospital?

[Jonathan Capehart]

My landlord plays the trunk bone and I can't ask him to stop.

[Brandon Johnson]

You should make sure that you subscribe.

[Joyce Vance]

So that you never miss an episode.

[Jonathan Capehart]

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[Joyce Vance]

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[Jonathan Capehart]

This case would be a crapshoot. That is what Donald Trump's former Labor Secretary, Alex Acosta, said during an interview with the White House Oversight Committee about a potential trial against sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. When Epstein was first arrested in 2006, Alex Acosta claimed the case had evidentiary issues, incited concerns about the credibility of the victims up against Epstein's defense team as reasons for not prosecuting. Quote, we put him in jail, he registered as a sex offender, and the victims had an opportunity to recover, and that was a win. Looking at all of this, the ultimate judgment was, do you roll the dice? And if he gets away with it, you're sending a signal to the community that he can get away with it. Alex Acosta disagreed that he gave Jeffrey Epstein a sweetheart deal, a deal that allowed Jeffrey Epstein to avoid federal prosecution and potentially life in prison and Instead serve only 13 months in jail, where he was given work release privileges nearly every day. The top ranking Democrat on the committee, Congressman Robert Garcia, pressed Alex Acosta about what is alleged to have happened during that time. Quote, Garcia, you do recognize that he went on to abuse other women. You recognize that Acosta, if there's evidence that he went on to abuse other women, that evidence should be brought forward. And Garcia, you're not aware, you can't say with certainty that he abused other women after he was in his. During his sentence. Acosta, I have not reviewed facts after the prosecution, Garcia. I mean, it's been widely reported, so that's surprising. Alex Acosta testified that he never discussed Jeffrey Epstein with Donald Trump prior to his confirmation as Labor Secretary, a position he resigned after Jeffrey Epstein's arrest in 2019 brought new scrutiny on his role in the previous deal. And he said he did not recall seeing Donald Trump's name on any documents related to the Epstein case. A spokesperson for Democrats on the Oversight Committee said in a statement, quote, the transcripts of Alex Acosta's interview confirm what we've known all along. He has no remorse for his mishandling of the Epstein case. Because of the deal Alex Acosta gave Epstein, he was able to continue assaulting and raping young women and girls for another decade. Joining us now, MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, thank you for coming to the Last Word. First time we're meeting in person. Thanks for having me. What was your impression of the Questions that the committee asked Acosta.

[Lisa Rubin]

I thought some of the questions that the committee asked were really good, and I think there are other missed opportunities. But let's talk about the good part. I really like the exchange between Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett and Alex Acosta because it exposed sort of what a relic Acosta has become. When she was pressing him about the fact that he had said that the witnesses had credibility issues. And I want to be clear, Acosta said, as far as he was concerned, the witnesses had no credibility issues, but many of them didn't want to testify. Some of them insisted that Jeffrey Epstein should have no time at all in jail. Crockett really drilled down on him and said, why is it that you don't think that these women could have survived impeachment, meaning impugning of their credibility by defense counsel? And Acosta was sort of taken a little bit aback by that. But Crockett invoked an example from her own time as defense lawyer and said, look, I defended a serial rapist who was accused of prosecuting. I'm sorry, of raping multiple prostitutes, and yet the jury gave him life. Why did you think that these women couldn't have survived cross examination on the stand, suggesting that she thought that his explanation of what had gone down wasn't particularly credible.

[Jonathan Capehart]

What did you think of how Acosta answered questions during this interview from Crockett, from Garcia, from other members of the committee?

[Lisa Rubin]

I thought that Acosta doesn't have much firsthand recollection. That's not hugely surprising to me, considering that the events were 20 years ago. But also so he was interviewed by the Department of Justice's Office of Professional Responsibility five years ago, and a report that came out Shortly after the 2020 election, when people like you and me and most of the nation was distracted with something else going on.

[Jonathan Capehart]

How could it have been?

[Lisa Rubin]

But Acosta was holding that report to him like a teddy bear. He clutched it so tightly. And I don't mean literally, I just mean he was so reliant on the report in lieu of his personal recollections. He was almost treating it like an oral argument bible instead of it being testimony. It was as if he was treating it like an opportunity to argue, first to the committee and then to the American public. Here's why I'm not responsible. Look at what so and so said in the OPR report. Look at what this person said in the OPR report. But in terms of his own real time recollection of what transpired in his office, he had very little of it.

[Jonathan Capehart]

What are some lingering questions that you would want to know more about after reading the transcript?

[Lisa Rubin]

So the non prosecution agreement has a bunch of features in it that I don't think have been adequately explained. One of them is something that some of the congresspeople asked questions about, which is, why are there four alleged co conspirators in the non prosecution agreement who got the benefit of the bargain that Jeffrey Epstein and his lawyers struck? Those women, according to Acosta, to the best of his knowledge, were never interviewed by anyone in the office. And yet the non prosecution agreement prevented the Southern District of Florida from prosecuting any of the four of them. How is it that they came to be in that agreement? The other thing that I find troubling is Acosta defended himself, and you read this quote before by saying that he ensured that the victims would get restitution. But that's part of the story. What happened was they ended up giving Jeffrey Epstein and his lawyers a list of potential victims. And in exchange, Epstein said if those people sued him under a particular statute, he would not contest liability. But in the process, the U.S. attorney's office effectively turned over to Epstein and his lawyers a list of people that the U.S. attorney's office knew to be victims. If you don't think that resulted in some intimidation campaigns against those people, you're kidding yourself. Particularly when Acosta testified that his own first assistant U.S. attorney was subject to a very aggressive recusal campaign. Why? Because that guy's daughter had been stalked. And on the basis of his reporting it to police, Epstein's lawyer said he couldn't possibly be fair and impartial with respect to Epstein's own case. That's sick. But Acosta never draws the connection that if that's how Epstein's lawyers treated a prosecutor who wasn't likely to run scared. What did he do to the victims? We know from Virginia Giuffre's memoir that comes out tomorrow that at one point, Jeffrey Epstein showed her a grainy photograph of her little brother, seeming as if it was taken by like a private investigator or someone with a long lens, and said, we know where your brother goes to school. So I have some real questions about what kind of tactics they used against the victims in this case and why Alex Acosta doesn't think that the things that they did to his team, they were perfectly capable of doing to dissuade victims from themselves coming forward and testifying.

[Jonathan Capehart]

More questions that need to be asked and answered. Lisa Rubin, thank you very much.

[Lisa Rubin]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Capehart]

That is tonight's last word.

[Brandon Johnson]

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate, and believe it.

[Joyce Vance]

Or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I'm Gabe Wiedman. I'm Max Silvestri, and we've been friends for 20 years, and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives. It's called I need you guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables?

[Joyce Vance]

Can I drink the water at the hospital?

[Jonathan Capehart]

My landlord plays the trombone and I can't ask him to stop.

[Joyce Vance]

You should make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I need you guys.