Federal Reserve Gov. Lisa Cook to sue over Trump’s ‘illegal’ attempt to fire her

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: Federal Reserve Gov. Lisa Cook to sue over Trump’s ‘illegal’ attempt to fire her
Date: August 27, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell (with guest segments hosted by Ali Velshi)

Episode Overview

This episode explores Donald Trump’s unprecedented move to fire Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, its legal and democratic implications, and the growing trend toward political retribution and institutional destabilization in Trump's second term. The program also covers the broader context of economic anxiety, Republican redistricting efforts, and threats to journalistic freedom, particularly in Gaza. Key guests include Senator Amy Klobuchar, LA Times columnist Michael Hiltzig, Congresswoman Amelia Sykes, and journalist Noga Tarnopolski.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Attempt to Fire Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook

(Main segment: 02:20–07:33, 07:34–13:47)

• Unprecedented Action: Trump’s claim that he fired Lisa Cook is a first in the Federal Reserve’s 112-year history.
• Legal Challenge: Cook refuses to resign and plans to sue, arguing Trump lacks authority for such firing (“President Trump purported to fire me for cause when no cause exists under the law...”) [03:15].
• Supreme Court Context: Recent court decisions allow removal of members from some independent agencies, but exempt the Fed due to its unique structure.
• Editorial Critique: The New York Times editorial board frames Trump’s move as a dangerous grab for power and says the Supreme Court is partly to blame for not providing clearer guardrails [04:10].
• Political Strategy: The move is viewed as part of Trump's larger effort to control key institutions and distract from his own economic failings.

2. Economic Backdrop and Political Fallout

(With Senator Amy Klobuchar, 07:34–15:34)

• Misplaced Blame: Trump seeks to attribute economic woes to the Fed, while his tariffs, tax cuts, and healthcare cuts are cited as root causes.
• Impact on Americans: Rising costs for families ($2,400 increase per household due to tariffs), layoffs (e.g., John Deere), and shrinking savings.
• Quote: “He cannot fire his way out of this economy.” — Sen. Amy Klobuchar [10:57]
• Real-life Impact: Klobuchar relays stories from constituents grappling with healthcare, SNAP cuts, and increasing living expenses.
• Rural Fallout: Farmers and rural areas bear the brunt of policy shifts, with connections drawn between agricultural support cuts (like SNAP) and job losses.

3. Political Retribution via Weaponized Investigations

(With Michael Hiltzig, 17:07–25:38)

• Mortgage Fraud Allegations: Unsubstantiated claims of mortgage fraud wielded against Lisa Cook, Adam Schiff, and Letitia James are orchestrated by Trump allies for intimidation.
• Quote: “This is the most transparent act of political retribution I've ever seen, and I've been at this for a few decades.” — Michael Hiltzig [23:33]
• Mechanics of the Smear: Paperwork errors or routine financial disclosures are spun as criminality, with targets forced to defend themselves publicly and legally.
• Dangerous Precedent: This tactic mirrors practices in “India and Hungary and Turkey... you just have to get enough of us for people to say, if you come stand in our way, we will come for you.” — Ali Velshi [22:59]
• Due Process Concerns: No evidence or due process precedes the public accusations or terminations.

4. Redistricting and Political Maneuvering in Ohio

(With Congresswoman Amelia Sykes, 28:45–33:40)

• Gerrymandering Push: Ohio Republicans are accelerating efforts to redraw congressional districts, aiming to cement GOP domination despite demographic changes.
• Economic Dread: Sykes discusses how sweeping healthcare (Medicaid) cuts, elimination of vital services, and the “one big ugly bill” will negatively impact all communities, urban and rural alike.
• Cynicism Toward Popularity: Sykes notes, “If this was such a popular bill, you would see people running... touting the policies. Instead... they drag down our cities.” [31:27]
• Federal vs. Local Priorities: Calls for the federal government to be a partner for working families, not the wealthy elite.

5. Attacks on Journalistic Freedom in Gaza

(With Noga Tarnopolski, 34:41–43:05)

• Rising Death Toll: Ongoing Israeli military strikes have killed nearly 200 journalists in Gaza since October 2023, the deadliest stretch ever recorded.
• Lack of Transparency: Israel consistently fails to provide evidence supporting claims that journalists are Hamas collaborators, fomenting an environment of impunity.
• Chilling Effect: Journalists in Gaza endure grave risks, with “a lot of fear and there’s no protection” [Quote from wounded photographer, ~34:00].
• Delegitimizing Coverage: Coverage of Gaza is immediately disparaged as propaganda by Israeli authorities, further endangering journalists.
• Quote: “From the Israeli point of view, simply covering the war or covering that attack is considered participating in it.” — Noga Tarnopolski [38:31]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Power Grab:
  “President Trump’s attempt to fire the Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook is a grab for power in defiance of the nation’s laws, and if it succeeds, it will be to the detriment of the nation’s interest.” — Read by Ali Velshi, quoting The New York Times editorial board [04:10]
• On Scapegoating Federal Officials:
  "He cannot fire his way out of this economy." — Sen. Amy Klobuchar [10:57]
• On Political Smears:
  "This is the most transparent act of political retribution I've ever seen, and I've been at this for a few decades." — Michael Hiltzig [23:33]
• On Israeli Killing of Journalists:
  "There are some journalists here in Israel... who has not been able to hide her shock and her disgust at what has happened. But by and large, the coverage here has been to say muted doesn't begin to cover it." — Noga Tarnopolski [41:47]
• On Fear in Gaza:
  "There's a lot of fear, and there's no protection." — Quoted by Ali Velshi, Palestinian photographer in Gaza [34:00]

---

Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Topic | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------| | 02:20-07:33 | Trump’s firing claim, Supreme Court context, media reaction | | 07:34-15:34 | Sen. Amy Klobuchar on the economy, Federal Reserve independence, rural impact | | 17:07-25:38 | Michael Hiltzig on weaponized mortgage fraud allegations | | 28:45-33:40 | Rep. Amelia Sykes on redistricting, Medicaid cuts, economic anxiety | | 34:41-43:05 | Noga Tarnopolski on journalist killings in Gaza |

---

Tone and Language

The tone is urgent, incisive, and critical—often incredulous—reflecting deep concern over institutional norms, democratic protections, and the safeguarding of free press. There’s a blend of policy analysis, personal testimony (from legislators and journalists), and sharp editorial perspective.

---

Conclusion

The episode paints a dire portrait of anti-democratic trends under Trump’s second term: attempts to undercut independent institutions, policies that harm working Americans, the weaponization of legal processes for retribution, and the attack on journalistic freedom both at home and abroad. Through expert guests and on-the-ground accounts, listeners gain a multidimensional view of the threats posed to American democracy and global press freedom.

Transcript

[MSNBC Announcer]

Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Ali Velshi]

I have the right to do anything I want to do. I'm the President of the United States. Those are the words Donald Trump uttered today in what was his longest public event ever as president. I have the right to do anything I want to do. I'm the President of the United States. Boasting about unchecked power, joking about declaring himself king, weakening checks and balances, stoking fear about crime to justify deploying what is approaching martial law in Democratic led cities, eroding trust in federal data and institutions. None of this should come as any surprise to anyone who's been paying attention for the last 10 years or for the last 90 years, really, because this is all straight out of the authoritarian playbook. And despite what the President might think, Americans don't actually want a dictator. He jokes about it all the time. Here's the Republican Congressman Josh Breachen of Oklahoma facing his constituents at a town hall meeting last night. Constitutionally, we have the authority to be over Washington D.C. what happened in LA to so the President? He's the chief law enforcement officer. Yes, he is. By the Constitution. He's the chief law enforcement officer to execute. So he is the executive highest executive authority. The role of the executive is to make sure the laws are executed.

[Michael Hiltzig]

So.

[Ali Velshi]

As also he is given the opportunity in the Constitution. He is also given the opportunity in the Constitution, y'. All. This is lawlessness. This is what lawlessness looks like. So this is what lawlessness looks like. People attending a town hall meeting criticizing their member of Congress. That's what lawlessness looks like. No, it's not. This is a country that was founded on dissent. Journalists and Historian the journalist and historian Garrett Graf writes, quote, today America is different. I think many Americans wrongly believe There would be one clear, unambiguous moment where we go from democracy to authoritarianism. Instead, this is exactly how it a blurring here, a norm destroyed there, a presidential diktat unchallenged. Then you wake up one morning and our country is different. Something is materially different in our country this week than last. It's only Tuesday. This week began with Donald Trump going after his biggest target yet, the Federal Reserve. As we covered in our breaking news last night, Donald Trump yesterday claimed he fired this woman, Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook. But Trump before Trump. No president has ever tried to remove a Fed governor in the central bank's 112 year history. In fact, just as we were going off the air last night, Lisa Cook put out a statement. She said, quote, president Trump purported to fire me for cause when no cause exists under the law and he has no authority to do so. I will not resign. I will continue to carry out my duties to help the American economy as I have been doing since 2022. This is just Donald Trump's latest attempt to control independent agencies by firing officials. But this time, Donald Trump is trying to test the same Supreme Court that granted him immunity from criminal prosecution last May. The Supreme Court said he could fire members of two independent agencies. Lawyers representing those fired officials argued that allowing Trump to move forward with those dismissals on those other agencies would weaken the legal protections that helped one of the biggest and most important of all independent agencies, the Federal Reserve, to work independently. In the court's ruling, the conservative Supreme Court justices wrote, we disagree. The Federal Reserve is a uniquely structured, quasi private entity that follows in the distinct historic tradition of the first and second banks of the United States. The New York Times editorial board writes in an article titled, where's your evidence, Mr. President? Quote, President Trump's attempt to fire the Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook is a grab for power in defiance of the nation's laws, and if it succeeds, it will be to the detriment of the nation's interest. But Ms. Cook and her colleagues are the lawfully appointed representatives of the American people, experts performing the people's business to the best of their ability. If Mr. Trump has an idea for a better system, he should speak it, but he must not be allowed to destroy the current system. The Supreme Court deserves significant blame for this situation. Mr. Trump, as is his habit, has tried to take advantage of the court's lack of a clear, definitive standard. By attempting to fire Ms. Cook, he has set up a direct clash with the conservative court majority that he helped create. The justices didn't want this fight, but now the courts have to stand up for the ruling that the Supreme Court just made and for the rule of law. Today, Lisa Cook said she will file a lawsuit to challenge what her lawyer calls a, quote, illegal action. Trump wants to blame the Fed for economic turmoil, but his illegal and arbitrary tariffs, debt busting, tax cuts, massive cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, they're hurting businesses, they're weakening the job market, they are fueling uncertainty, they are weakening the US Dollar, they are raising prices. He wants voters to look at the Fed and interest rates and turn away from the problems that he created through his mismanagement and his bad policies. But voters are smarter than that. They know who's to blame. A new poll shows that support for Donald Trump's economy will is at 37%. Kind of surprised. I'd like to meet some of those people, the 37%, and see what it is they've got to say. But the percentage of Americans who say the economy is getting worse is at 63%, a 1 point increase from October of 2024, when Donald Trump claimed he was going to lower prices on day one. And his tariff policies are costing jobs. John Deere just announced layoffs that are linked to the trade war, which makes sense. Unproven allegations supposedly related to mortgages is Donald Trump's new weapon of choice in his fight to reshape American policy. Trump's attack on economist Lisa Cook is his most audacious. Trump is too chicken to try and fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell. He attacks him all the time. But Jerome Powell has publicly said he won't go. So Trump instead went after the first black woman ever to serve on that board.

[Noga Tarnopolski]

Trump.

[Ali Velshi]

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She serves on the Senate Commerce and Judiciary Committee Committee. Senator, great to see you. Thank you for being with us.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Thanks, Ali.

[Ali Velshi]

Trying to make sense of this, there are a few goals here. Donald Trump, like lots of presidents, wants lower interest rates than the Fed wants. Donald Trump is trying to now, when he couldn't get his way with Jerome Powell tried to describe him as some sort of mismanager as it relates to the renovations of the Fed. He had that little hard hat tour of the Fed. Now he goes after Lisa Powell for mortgage fraud, which apparently everybody's getting. Adam Schiff's got mortgage fraud and Tish James has mortgage fraud. The whole thing just stinks.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

It does. And Donald Trump doesn't have a right to fire a governor on the Federal Reserve, as you just pointed out. No President has ever done this. This is an independent agency acknowledged as such quasi private by the US Supreme Court not 100 years ago, but just this May. And I am glad, given what Donald Trump's doing, I am glad that Governor Cook is standing up because you've got a situation here where he's trying to put his thumb on everyone he can find, on the judges, on the Republicans in Congress who seem to be acquiescing every single day to what he wants on the Federal Reserve. And this is a time to stand up. You think about what the Federal Reserve does here. It looks at this creeping inflation problem that Donald Trump owns and then you look at the role, the important role they play in standing up for Americans in this economy. But the second piece of this is what you got up way beyond the legal part is why does he do this? He wants to distract people from what he should own and that is this economy because of the Trump tariff taxes, $2,400 on every single family in Americ America. On what's been happening to farmers in my state with their markets drying up with the ag economy. You pointed out the John Deere firings and the John Deere terminations, I should say, that are related actually tothey said themselves to what's happening with the farm economy. He doesn't want to own it. He blames a statistician. Remember that? Just in the last month. I thought that was ironic. This well trusted statistician and he gets bad job numbers and then he fires someone making the job numbers worse.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah. I mean the head of the BLS is somebody nobody knew. Lisa Cook is somebody whose name you didn't know. These are these people, he wants to call them the deep State. These are these people who just do their work largely behind closed doors.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Right. And so owning this is what he needs to do. Changing his policies of what he needs to do. And we're just seeing the beginnings of this with the effects of these tariffs. And you're just seeing so far, I think there was just a recent study showing something like 20% of it has been absorbed by consumers. And we're going to see 60% more in the next few months. And by the way, in the biggest cabinet meeting of all, the Minnesota State Fair, where I've been hanging out while you guys have been glued to watching him at this cabinet meeting, I've been at the real cabinet meeting with 2 million people. They know what's going on. And those are the numbers. And the people that you see in these polls where he is tanking on his handling of the economy because their grocery bills don't lie, their rent doesn't lie, their childcare bills don't lie, school costs for their kids, clothing don't lie, strollers costs. None of this. They know what this is. He cannot fire his way out of this economy.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah, I mean, you know me, I'm a big fan of Minnesota and a big fan of State Fair. So I would choose the Minnesota State Fair over pretty much everything else. But let's talk about that, because this is where stats that you have about Medicare, about health care cuts, about SNAP cuts, about agriculture, the $2,400 increase that inflation is going to hit each household, that the Yale Budget Lab has come up with those figures. So that's all figures and numbers and of course, the jobs numbers that he fired somebody for. And then you're out there talking to people, you're out there talking to real Americans. $2,400, we learned in the pandemic and we learned in the recession of 2008, folks don't, most regular American folks don't have a whole bunch of extra money for emergencies.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

They do not. And we're seeing that shrinking and shrinking as they're eating up their savings, just trying to get by. What he should be working on, which I believe we should be working on, and I know the Democratic Party is going to be focused on, is bringing down the cost of housing, building more housing, doing something about childcare and getting some innovative partnerships, public, private, when it comes to childcare, bringing down health care costs, not kicking 15 million people off their health care as they did in the big, beautiful betrayal of a bill or not taking care of these premiums that you're going to see skyrocketing in the next few months, both for people on the Affordable Care act and people on other planswe've already seen the numbers coming out because they decided instead they wanted to give trillions of dollars in tax cuts to billionaires. That is exactly what happened in the big, beautiful betrayal of a bill. They gave $2 trillion in tax cuts to rich people and then let everyone else suffer. And I'm telling you, the people that come up to me, the real stories of people with their moms in the nursing homes worried that they're going to have to, they won't be able to afford that anymore. People who have one job and then a second job, but they still need SNAP to help them because they're a single mom. Those are the people that I talk to.

[Ali Velshi]

And by the way, these are an issue.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

These are the people that are let in his Cabinet meeting today, there's a.

[Ali Velshi]

Direct line between the SNAP cuts and rural America and farms and the layoffs at John Deere because people forget usaid, which a lot of people didn't pay any attention to, and SNAP cuts both have a whole lot to do with farming and agriculture in this country.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Exactly. And this is a real gut punch for farmers. But it's also the rural communities because they produce the food, Right. They grow the corn, they produce the beef, they grow the pigs. And that is what is used for food for not only SNAP programs for veterans and seniors and people with kids, but also for a lot of our aid that we give overseas. So he has taken the rug out from under those two programs, while at the same time these tariffs are hitting them and drying up their markets. So when I heard tonight that we won this seat in Iowa, which is a very rural seat in the state Senate, I thought, yeah, I'm not surprised at all. When I see us leading in these races around the country in these areas that are rural. What I think about, I think about those Social Security offices in the middle of North Carolina that are shutting down or not answering their phones, where I'm so happy that former Governor Cooper is running you. He's going to win that Senate seat. Or I think about in Ohio where Sherrod Brown is going to come back and he's running for that seat because he knows exactly what's happening in his state. As we're seeing jobs being lost, as we see what's happening right now with costs for people who are just trying to get by families, trying to get by these states that are all in the mix here with Alaska and Iowa and North Carolina. These states, they've got big rural areas and they're the ones that are seeing all of these small businesses and roadkill that we're seeing when it comes to the tariffs. And it's only going to get worse. And he won't change his mind. All he does is blame other people, including the Federal Reserve governor today.

[Ali Velshi]

Senator, good to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us tonight.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Senator, it's great to be on Ally, come back to the Minnesota state.

[Ali Velshi]

I will be there before you know it. I'll be happy to see you again. There's. Well, when Donald Trump decided to run for president after losing to Joe Biden, he told his supporters, I am your retribution. 219 days into Donald Trump's second term, we're getting a much clearer picture of just what he meant. Attacking his perceived rivals by any means necessary. More on that next.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay, that no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter, sharp insights from voices you TR standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up [e-mail].

[Ali Velshi]

It seems we're starting to get a better picture of what Donald Trump meant when he said this in 2023. In 2016, I declared I am your voice. Today I add, I am your warrior.

[Michael Hiltzig]

I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged.

[Ali Velshi]

And betrayed, I am your retribution. I am your retribution. I am your retribution. Recently, Donald Trump's retribution tour has taken aim at some familiar foes. Last week we saw the home and office of his former national Security advisor, John Bolton, searched by the FBI, still not clear what they were looking for. And Vice President Vance, in an interview with my colleague Kristen Welker, suggested it might just be a fishing expedition. Earlier this month, NBC News reported U.S. attorney General Pam Bondi has appointed a special attorney to probe vague claims supposedly related to mortgages against Senator Adam Schiff and New York Attorney General Letitia James, who of course won a landmark civil fraud case against Trump that is now on appeal. The James investigation featured this farcical scene where the guy on the right, the conservative activist Ed Martin, who's working in a made up job at the Department of Justice after failing to be confirmed as a U.S. attorney, was seen scoping out Letitia James Brooklyn home in a trench coat, Colombo style. And then last night, Donald Trump tried to remove Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook via social media post. Donald Trump cited an Aug. 15 criminal referral on once again, allegations related to mortgage fraud, despite Cook not having been charged with any crime. Now we've talked a lot about the politics and the retribution, but I think there are a whole lot of people who want to understand what's going on here. Is there like this epidemic of mortgage fraud all across America? My next guest, the Los Angeles Times business columnist Michael Hiltzig, reports on just how suspicious these claims are. Quote, what gets me and what should get you is the flimsiness of these accusations. Despite how Loudly. They've been brooded about on the maga, right, as though they're signals of profound moral turpitude on the part of the targets and how they all originated in the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which is led by the Trump acolyte and sycophant, William J. Pulte. The important question in the view of Adam Levittin of Georgetown Law is who is driving these investigations and levying these accusations and whether they reflect an enemies list that Pulte has compiled on Donald Trump's behalf. I asked the Federal Housing Finance Agency to respond to the professor's questions, but received no response, end quote. Received no response. It's one thing not to receive a response from the agency, which is now headed by a political appointee, but here's what Hiltzig said about asking the inspector general about the claims against Adam Schiff. Quote, I asked the Federal Housing Finance Agency, who at the inspector General's office demanded the files, what was the reason for the demand and whether Pulte played a role in the demand. I received no response. Joining us now, Michael Hilsig, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the Los Angeles Time Times. He's the author of Golden State, the Making of California. Michael, it's great to see you again. Thank you for being with us this evening. Thank you for writing about what this is. We do not have a trial. We don't know yet what's going on. It is highly unusual if there are allegations of mortgage fraud or instances of mortgage fraud. It's highly unusual for anybody higher than someone at a bank or maybe involving the FBI to be involved. Having political appointees all the way up to the president commenting on, let alone having anything to do with this is just, it's highly unorthodox.

[Michael Hiltzig]

Well, you're right, Ali. And I have to tell you that Bill Pulte, who's really at the center, he's the hub of this whole thing, he really needs to be questioned in public. You know, Congress, when it gets back from vacation, needs to put him on the stand. You know, let's just look at the pattern here of what happened. You know, this is in the Adam Schiff case. Basically, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which is headed by Bill Pulte, goes and calls on Fannie Mae, which is the quasi governmental mortgage holding company of which Pulte is the chairman. And they said, they said explicitly, they said, we want you to go into your records and pull out anything you can find with, of a document with Adam Schiffs name on it and then get back to Us. So Fannie Mae goes in there and they put all this in the memo. They say, we got a call from the inspector general of, you know, FHFA and you know, we're doing this and they write a memo back to Pulte at fhfa. You know, so Fannie Mae, chaired by Pulte, writes a memo to the FHFA directed by Pulte. And they say, well, we found these five mortgages that Schiff had on houses in Burbank, California and in, in Maryland, where, you know, he serves in the Senate. And, and they were all, you know, there are five mortgages. They don't say that any of them were underperforming. Instead they actually say they've all been paid off and there's no evidence that he got a dime's worth of advantage from having two mortgages. And the banks obviously knew he had two houses, none of this. And, and yet, you know, and they, and you know, here's multi saying, well, you know, there bad here and we need, you know, shift has to come clean. It's the same thing with Leticia James's case and it's the same thing with Lisa Cook's case. These are the, the most they come up with are the most trivial, right? Paperwork, errors. And anyone who's had a close a.

[Ali Velshi]

Mortgage, you know what a mortgage is like. The, the guy on one side gives you the paper, you sign it goes into this pile. Then they give you another paper and you sign it and goes into this.

[Michael Hiltzig]

Pile and you're there for four hours. You know, some of these, I'm an economics reporter, Michael.

[Ali Velshi]

I don't read all those, those pages. And I'm a guy who has a house in two different states. I mean, but, but the thing is, Miles Taylor said this. Abby Lowell is representing Tish James and now Lisa Cook. And Miles made the point the other day. He said they're going to get us on traffic tickets in the end. This is looking a lot like India and Hungary and Turkey and a whole lot of other places that in theory have democracies. But, but, but they get people on these things and they don't have to get us all. They just have to get enough of us for people to say, if you come stand in our way in any fashion, we will come for you.

[Michael Hiltzig]

Well, you know, and it works because all three of these targets have had to hire lawyers, they've had to make public statements. You've got, you know, I, you know, I've been inundated with emails and tweets from People who say, well, you know, if they're guilty, they should resign. You know, they've been assumed to be guilty without, you know, any evidence whatsoever. It's. This is the most transparent act of political retribution I've ever seen. And I've been at this for a few decades.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah. And yesterday, the president writes a letter to fire Lisa Cook stating what the allegations are. No charge, no crime, no civil charge, no bank who has gone and said something. And you make an interesting point in your column, and that is that that banks mostly are concerned about whether their loan performs right. Their problem is when somebody fails to pay on a loan, and generally speaking, even that they don't worry about until it becomes a trend. There's no, there's no underlying thing here. And yet the President, who, by the way, was taken to court for matters relating to valuing properties.

[Michael Hiltzig]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Ali Velshi]

Gone. There's no, there's no due process for, for Lisa Cook at this point. She's pushing the matter. She'll get her due process because she's hired a lawyer and she's suing, and she says she's not resigning. So something will happen here. But it is kind of remarkable that this is, this is pretty flimsy stuff. But we see it, we see it in other dictatorships. You see flimsy stuff. Disqualify somebody from running for office, disqualifies somebody from running for mayor or president or whatever the case is.

[Michael Hiltzig]

That's true. And we know, we absolutely know that if these guys burrowing into the records of these three targets found anything like a late payment, much less an unpaid loan, that would be the headline. Yes, they, they didn't do that. They have nothing like that. And in fact, these, these loans have been paid off or the paperwork errors are past the statute of limitations. It's just, as I said, it's transparent and absurd. I've just never seen anything like it.

[Ali Velshi]

I encourage everybody to read your column on this because, you know, people are curious what is the actual story here? And you've come the closest to actually telling. So thank you. Michael Hiltzig is a business columnist at the Los Angeles Times. All right, coming up, Democrats in red states have something else to worry about, thanks to the anti Democratic efforts of Donald Trump's Republican Party, bogus redistricting and gerrymandered maps. Up next, we'll talk to Democratic Congresswoman Amelia Sykes, who's talking to her voters in Ohio about how Democrats are planning to fight back. That's next. Tonight, the NAACP and the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights under Law filed a federal lawsuit against Texas accusing the state of racially gerrymandering its new congressional map in violation of the Voting Rights Act. In a statement, NAACP President Derek Johnson said this, quote, the state of Texas is only 40% white, but white voters control over 73% of the state's congressional seats. It's quite obvious that Texas effort to redistrict mid decades before next year's midterm elections is racially motivated, end quote. And it's not just Texas where Republicans are trying to gerrymander maps. Republicans in Ohio are also trying to help rig the map to help Trump in the midterms. Ohio, unusually, is required by law to redraw its congressional districts this year. And when the Ohio General assembly returns after Labor Day, the Republican majority will have until September 30, less than a month to pass a new congressional map. Now, in 2022 Ohio Republicans passed a map without Democratic support, locking in a 10 to 5 GOP advantage in the state's congressional delegation. Republican leaders are already saying they want to take things further. Let's just pause here to ask, is this what a popular president who expected his party to do well in the midterms would be focused on? No, because Donald Trump has a 37% approval rating on the economy. The economy, the thing he ran on. Prices the thing he ran on are not lower. The last jobs report was so bad that he fired the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And thanks to the Republican budget bill, Americans are facing massive health care cuts while Trump and his rich friends get a huge tax cut. That's the backdrop for this redistricting desperation. The Ohio Capitol Journal writes, Ohio's Republican Senator, Bernie Moreno thinks the GOP will pick up two additional seats and that Republicans controlling 12 of 15 districts. Moreno reasoned that there's a recognition that big cities like Cincinnati, Columbus and Cleveland will be represented by Democrats. Sitting in the crosshairs of Ohio's redistricting efforts are Ohio's Democratic U.S. representatives Marcy Kaptor and Amelia Sykes. Captors. Toledo area District and Sykes Akron based seats are the two most closely divided districts in the state. Hence, joining me now is the Democratic Congresswoman Amelia Sykes. She represents Ohio's 13th congressional district. She just wrapped up a town hall tonight in her district which could be redrawn by Republicans. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate having you here tonight.

[Congresswoman Amelia Sykes]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Ali Velshi]

First of all, tell me about the conversation that you had with your constituents, because that seems to be of the moment. What are you hearing from people about all the nonsense that's going to.

[Congresswoman Amelia Sykes]

Yeah, we had a very robust conversation about the things that matter the most to people in Ohio's 13th district. The price of housing and health care, gas and groceries. They are concerned about the impacts of HR1, the one big ugly bill and how it is going to decimate our local economy by pulling out a trillion dollars in the Medicaid program when our largest employers are healthcare systems. We talked about public safety and what it means to be safe in a community and how the federal government could and should work with our local governments, our local leaders in our communities to keep us safe rather than do what our vice President did, come in and denigrate and make fun of our larger urban areas rather than coming to help us. And so we talked an awful lot about how we can best make government work for the people and not do what we saw in the one big ugly bill where there is a shifting of wealth from the lowest income folks to the most wealthy. Where we are seeing permanent tax cuts so people can buy second yachts and big vacation homes and really the bread and butter issues that make people tick here in the Midwest.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah, and let's talk about that because I assume at some point all of this information trickles down. The money doesn't trickle down. There's no such thing as trickle down economics. But I'm sure this, this all trickles down. That if you are in an interesting state like, like Ohio where you have a lot of urban centers and a lot of rural areas. This bill hits all of you, Republican, Democrat, urban, suburban and rural. It's negative for everybody in terms of health care, in terms of snap, in terms of agriculture, in terms of. All the things in this bill hit everybody in Ohio badly and yet Republicans have a built in advantage in your state that they're trying to make stronger.

[Congresswoman Amelia Sykes]

Absolutely. And I talk about this bill in terms of our economics. As I said, our largest employers are health systems. Nearly 30,000 jobs. Rely upon the fact that Medicaid reimburses these hospitals for services. The uncompensated care was killing these hospitals. And getting rid of a trillion dollars out of the Medicaid program is going to be devastating. It's going to have such negative impacts. People may be laid off. Folks are not going to have access to primary care, reproductive care, drug treatment and long term care. So we are very concerned about it not only just for the health and the well being of our communities, but our economy and whether or not people are going to have jobs. But here's the thing, if this was such a popular bill, you would see people running all over this country talking about and touting the policies. Instead, when we did get a visit from a senior official, the vice president, he took the opportunity to drag down our cities and make fun of us. And we don't respect that here. We work very hard. We are proud of our communities, and we want a federal government that is going to work with us and for us. And so when I do these town halls, it is an opportunity for me to hear from my constituents so that I can do what they are asking me to do, working for them, making sure that they have more money in their pockets, they have affordable health care, and they feel safe in their communities.

[Ali Velshi]

Let's talk about cities under the guise of safety. The federal troops, National Guard, ice, everybody's moving into the cities. This war on cities in the same way that we were just talking about what this gerrymandering is really all about. We know that that's what the war on cities is all about, too.

[Congresswoman Amelia Sykes]

It is. And our cities are economic engines across the country. And it is the case here in Ohio's 13th district. But here's the thing I want to make sure I leave with you. I'm a graduate of Kent State University. I am very well aware of what happens when the National Guard gets called in against American citizens. And so we can talk about safety all day long. I love to talk about safety. I want my to feel safe. But I also know what happens when we use the military against United States citizens. That was a topic that came up today during our town hall. And people were very clear that they did not want to see militarized individuals on our streets of our cities. Work with us. There are cops grants that are currently being withheld from the federal government that our communities could use. We have a piece of bipartisan legislation for de escalation training that's been endorsed by the FOP and the naa acp. Please help us pass that. There are good ideas, but we need a government who is willing to work on and for and be on behalf of the American public, not billionaires and millionaires. And that is what this administration is doing.

[Ali Velshi]

Representative Amelia Sykes, thank you for joining us tonight. We appreciate your time.

[Congresswoman Amelia Sykes]

Thank you.

[Ali Velshi]

All right, coming up, quote, there's a lot of fear and there's no protection. That truth has led to deadly consequences for dozens of the journalists on the ground in Gaza killed by strike by the Israeli military. Journalists doing their jobs, trying hard to tell the stories of the Gaza residents suffering in this seemingly never ending conflict and the humanitarian crisis that it's causing. More on that next.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace Weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Ali Velshi]

The Israeli military has killed yet more journalists in Gaza Gaza we're about to show you some disturbing scenes. The back to back attacks by Israel on the Nasser hospital in Gaza yesterday that killed at least 20 people, including five journalists who worked for the Associated Press, Reuters, Al Jazeera and others. Reuters reports one of its cameramen was killed in the initial strike on the top floor of the hospital. Minutes later it was a double tap after rescue workers, medics and other journalists rushed to the scene to help help Israel hit the hospital a second time. The Israeli military said it was targeting a camera that it claimed, again without evidence, that was being used by Hamas to track its IDF troop movements, but a senior Hamas official denies that. But all of this is almost beside the point anymore. Israel kills Palestinian journalists with impunity and there is always an excuse supported by flimsy or non existent evidence, evidence that is impossible for journalists to corroborate. It's the latest chapter in an increasingly dangerous situation for journalists in Gaza who are trying to document the ongoing war and worsening humanitarian crisis. Israel has long had restrictions on foreign journalists gaining entry to Gaza, but when I was last Inside Gaza in 2019, my movements were not restricted and my content was not censored. Now foreign press is not allowed to work freely in Gaza, which means we cannot bear witness and hold authority whether that authority is Hamas or the IDF to account. And that means bad actors on all sides can act with impunity. Literally the only pictures and information we get are from Palestinian journalists contracted by many major news organizations. These journalists risk their lives every day to get the word out from the war zone and unlike foreign journalists, they can't leave when the going gets tough. Just two weeks ago, the Israeli military killed another group of journalists in a targeted attack on Al Jazeera journalist Anas Al Sharif, who won a 2024 Pulitzer Prize as part of a Reuters team for breaking news photography of the Israel Hamas war. Israel claimed before the attack that he was a Hamas militant, something he and Al Jazeera have refuted the New York Times reports, quote, nearly 200 journalists have been killed in Gaza, more than in any other conflict or any single place since the Committee to Protect Journalists began keeping track in the 1990s. All but a handful were Palestinians who had to balance their own families, displacement and hunger with the mission of bearing witness amid grave danger. Like nearly all of Gaza's 2 million residents, most have slept in tents or the courtyards of hospitals or in their cars. Some have had dozens of relatives killed. Some have isolated themselves from their children because they fear being targeted as journalists. The recent spate of killings has had a chilling effect. It's reached the point where I'm too scared to report, one photographer told the Times. Another, who was wounded along with his daughter during a July strike on a nearby home, Said, Said, there's a lot of fear and there's no protection. Joining me now from Jerusalem is the journalist Noga Tarnopolski. She has spent over two decades covering the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And to some degree, Noga, this is not all new, right? You live in a part of the world all around you in Israel and all around you, there are severe restrictions on journalists across that region. But this one is particularly tricky because foreign journalists can't get in, can't operate with, with freedom in Gaza. So all you've got are the people who are in there and generally speaking, stuck there. And we can't ever tell why anybody's killed because we can't get the evidence.

[Noga Tarnopolski]

Well, I mean, the Israeli authorities could choose to share with us evidence. We're in a really absurd situation where any information that comes out of Gaza is immediately tainted by the Israeli authorities as being somehow part of Hamas attacks. It's gotten to the point where any journalist, any Palestinian, Gazan photographer who covered October 7, the attacks itself is being considered in Israel as one of the terrorists who perpetrated the massacre. And it's even more complicated by the fact that, you know, Al Jazeera is an organ of the Qatari state. Qatar did fund and is still a supporter of Hamas. Things are complicated in this region. And yet what is beginning to become completely clear is that from the Israeli point of view, simply covering the war or covering that attack is considered participating in it. And in that way, the journalistic profession in its totality is simply delegitimized because you're basically being told that if you covered it, you did it. I'm being a little bit facetious, but not really the current event, the event that you're so Outraged about Ali really and truly is shocking. One of the most disturbing things I've seen is that while the Israeli army has not made the claim that any of the journalists killed were terrorists, unlike many other times, it has said that there are that among the 20, that six that were killed were terrorists has provided literally zero evidence. If it wanted to provide evidence, it could, we would welcome it. We get nothing. But what you've seen are Israeli outlets and a whole Israeli kind of sort ofPro Israeli PR machine has already begun to be smirked these journalists as having been terrorists. And so it's a situation, which it is. I mean, I don't even have the words to describe it. We can't cover it. We have no access to any evidence. And the statements put up by the army thus far, you know, don't cover it with glory.

[Ali Velshi]

Right? So this is the issue. And as journalists, we need to separate ourselves from the fact that we might work for organizations that have ideological bents or they may be in favor of or against a government, even here in the United States, right? If they take a journalist's ability, if they try and silence the journalist with whom I share no views, I will stand up for that journalist. I will sit there and say, we don't silence journalists. That is something we don't do. You can have your ideological battles about countries and news organizations there. You have a strong and hearty journalistic industry in Israel. Some people are rightly outraged as you are, Samar.

[Noga Tarnopolski]

That's exactly right. I also have to tell you, I've almost been struck silent by this fact. There are some journalists here in Israel. I want to highlight Carmela Menashe, one of the veteran military correspondents here, who has not been able to hide her shock and her disgust at what has happened. But by and large, the coverage here has been to say muted doesn't begin to cover it. Channel 12 news, the number one top watch, most popular news station in Israel, Ali, unfortunately put out a kind of an episode describing how these journalists, with no evidence how these journalists were connected to terror or somehow terrorists when the army itself hadn't done that, as if they are part of a machine. So what happens is, is here for Israelis, including I don't know how many hundred thousand Israelis who are out on the streets yesterday protesting against the war, the killing of these journalists, and not just the journalists, the other 15 people, including medical personnel who were killed in this same strike, become somehow murky and less of a clear crime than it should be.

[Ali Velshi]

You have never been murky about these things. You do what a journalist does. You hold people to account without fear or favorite, and we appreciate that you will continue to do so. Noga Tarnopolski is a veteran journalist in Israel.